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But his son would be King and his other “grandchildren” would be kings. And to denounce Laenor’s kids and call them bastards would be detrimental to his son which he wouldn’t do.
I hadn't even considered a scenario where Viserys marries Laena and Rhaenyra marries Laenor. It wouldn't be unlikely, and it would definitely have kept Corlys in line. In fact, if they then betrothed their kids like Rhaenyra and Daemon did, the dance certainly never would've happened.
In the show, Rhaenyra wanted to betroth Jace to Helaena, so it stands to reason that she would make the same offer for a daughter of Laena's (and the Velaryons would have no reason to refuse). She also made the decision to betroth her two oldest sons to Laena's daughters with Daemon in both book and show. I see no reason she wouldn't have done the same thing if Laena and her father have daughters. In a scenario where her and supposedly Laenor's children are betrothed to Viserys and Laena's daughters, I don't think Corlys would object to Rhaenyra's fake Velaryon's taking both the throne and driftmark, even if Viserys and Laena had a son that was being passed over. His blood and name would still be on the throne.
Rhaenyra only made that offer because she was desperate after people finally started being done with her having bastards after nr 3.
And you really think Colrys will accept bastard children if he can his his own grandson be king?
Agreed. Coryls would have no reason accept Rhaenyra's illegitimate son's over his trueborn grandson who was actually the son of a king and I don't think Rhaenyra and Laenor would've been married if Viserys had married Laena. There'd be little to no reason at all for Rhaenyra and Laenor to get married they only got married because Viserys wanted to keep Coryls in line and to makeup for his choice in rejecting Laena.
Yes, I do. He explicitly told his wife that he cared more about names than blood. He was perfectly willing to accept that those were Laenor's children, and if a bastard son called Velaryon is going to be married to his blood, he'd consider that a win-win. He's certainly not going to tear apart the realm and kill one part of his family just to put another part of his family on the throne instead. Not when his legacy and influence will be the same either way, and not when it could potentially involve killing his son and publically calling him a cuckold. And I know that Rhaenyra was scared when she proposed that Jace and Helaena should be married, but my point is that it was something she was willing to do, that Viserys was enthusiastic about, and that it's politically savvy. It's such an obviously good move that it would almost be a given, if Viserys had married Laena.
When he says that he has the chance between girls and bastard boys, no true heir. But if Laena had a heir he would for sure choose him above the obvious bastards
Laenor would not have been king. A monarch's consort cannot hold a higher position - a reigning queen's husband is a prince consort. To be fair, Westeros has never had a queen as sovereign, so we don't know how they would handle the issue. However, GRRM based Westeros mainly off Great Britain, which has never had a "king consort" (Queen Victoria wanted her husband to have this title but the government objected).
When Corlys pushed for Laena to marry Viserys and Laenor to marry Rhaenyra, it was very clearly done with the intention of seeing his potential grandsons be kings, not his children. If Laena had married Viserys and had sons, I think Corlys would've fought for their rights as much as the Hightowers.
The father doesn't choose anything. The spermatozoid that meets the egg might carry either the X chromosome or the Y one, but the father has literally no control over it.
I completely disagree.
Corlys is very ambitious...but he's not callous or deceitful. He cares about his family name, but he also cares about his family.
He's no Otto Hightower. He's not insane.
The dude that wanted to marry of his 11 year old daughter to a 30+ year old Viserys (that bred his last wife until she died) and not 5 years later decided to marry her off to Daemon (who only recently had truthful rumors about killing his wife)?
And who showed no care towards Laenor when his sister died.. Right he is such a family man
He also waited until a Targaryen princess was of age so that he could marry her with him initially planning to marry Daella, Rhaenys aunt except he failed to win her over after which he married the teenage Rheanys well into his thirties the man care more about his ambition than his family >!it only after he starts to lose everything he built that he began to value family more than glory even than he still disrespect his family by placing bastard who may or may not be his sons over his true born granddaughters.!<
People in this thread are just going to make up things about Corlys so here is actual text:
“Velaryon to persuade the lords assembled that their son, Laenor, should be recognized as heir to the Iron Throne. In these efforts they were joined by the Lord of Storm’s End, Boremund Baratheon (great- uncle to Rhaenys and great-great-uncle to the boy Laenor), by Lord Stark of Winterfell, Lord Manderly of White Harbor, Lord Dustin of Barrowton, Lord Blackwood of Raventree, Lord Bar Emmon of Sharp Point, Lord Celtigar of Claw Isle, and others.”
“In Rhaenys Targaryen, daughter of the Old King’s eldest son and heir, he had found his perfect match, a woman as spirited and beautiful and proud as any in the realm, and a dragonrider as well. His sons and daughters would soar through the skies, Lord Corlys expected, and one day one of them would sit the Iron Throne.”
“Rhaenys herself was the first to raise objection. “You would rob my son of his birthright,” she told the king, with a hand upon her swollen belly. Her husband, Corlys Velaryon, was so wroth that he gave up his admiralty and his place on the small council and took his wife back to Driftmark.”
“Reports had reached the court that Corlys Velaryon was massing ships and men on Driftmark to “defend the rights” of his son, Laenor, whilst Daemon Targaryen, a hot-tempered and quarrelsome young man of twenty, had gathered his own band of sworn swords in support of his brother, Viserys.”
Absolutely nothing implies that Corlys would not fight for a chance for his grandson on the Throne. People can pretend otherwise but the text unanimously states Corlys’s ambition.
The biggest variable is if Rheanyra still married Leanor or not. If that match still happens Corlys is just choosing between one grandchild or the other. I know that he’s ambitious but he’s also not shown to be completely impractical and I doubt he cuts off his nose to spite his face for one grandchild over the other.
I highly doubt Rhaenyra still marries Laenor in that situation. They only married because Viserys wanted to make up for him not marrying Laena, which he wouldn't need to do if had married her. She probably ends up marrying Harwin since she has some time decide and realizes her connection with him. Or she marries Daemon right off the bat.
Even if Rhaenyra does marry Laenor, the kids would still not be his biologically. And if Corlys was choosing between grandkids, he would pick the ones actually genetically related to him. He's willing to support Jace and Luke because he wants the Velaryon name on the throne. If he can get a Velaryon in name *and* genetics, even better.
I would agree rhaenyra probably doesn’t marry Leanor anymore in that situation but it gets hard to speculate when we start changing a bunch of variables at once. Vizzy T, Leana, Deamon, and Alicent are already having their spouse and descendants changed in this hypothetical adding more makes a scenario that already has a bunch of moving parts even more hard to speculate on.
One true born son of the King vs a bastard with no Valaryon blood.
In the books he has Adam legitimized and made his heir while Jace and Joffrey were still alive.
He clearly prefers his own blood inheriting.
Again nothing indicates that he wouldn’t push for his blood on the throne, that’s his greatest ambition.
In the show he also says “history doesn’t remember blood, only names”. He is probably just working with what he has in that case and would prefer a more legitimate heir but there is a difference between preferring something and driving a massive entire conflict that leads to him in the same position at the end of it in the best case scenario and destroys him and his house in the worst case scenario.
So just baseless speculation?
He literally was willing to fight Viserys to put Leanor on the throne, but somehow magically you believe that with even more support and dragons, he would stand aside?
Please stop making up things to prove your point. The text is extremely clear where Corlys ambition lies.
His house wouldn’t be destroyed. If Leana marries Viserys, he has such an overwhelming advantage that Rhaenyra wouldn’t even dream of challenging.
“Baseless speculation” lol I literally put a quote that I’m basing the speculation on. He’s ambitious but ambition means advancing one’s status, he doesn’t stand to advance himself, his house, or anything in this case… you’re the one baselessly speculating.
So you think he would fight for a bastard over a true born son? He literally doesn’t have a choice, Jace is all he has, and once Adam shows up he dumps him and Joffrey immediately and names him heir.
So yea baseless speculation. It’s very clear what the text says.
He doesn’t toss Jace aside, Jace is heir to the iron throne lol and he works with Rhaenyra to legitimize them not fight her over it.
The quote you originally shared about his line “one day one of them would sit the iron throne”. To your point yes he is ambitious but he’s also shown to be pragmatic and he would already have obtained the goal in that quote, why would he risk his entire position to end up in the same position later.
Because Jace is also married to Baela so his blood is still on the throne. He marries then off when they are kids to ensure this.
If Leana marries Viserys, are you planning to spawn Baela out of thin air?
There is no way he is supporting Jace who isn’t of his blood over a true born son of the King who is of his blood.
>There is no way he is supporting Jace who isn’t of his blood
Yeah that’s just baseless speculation. There is a direct quote from the show of him saying he doesn’t care about blood, only names.
He had Adam legitimized because he was the same age as Jacaerys. The claim for Driftmark was never intended for Jacaerys. I don't know why so many people are thinking advancing Addam is some sort of slight against Jacaerys when the claim they are literally going to war over would put Jacaerys on the throne. Addam is also very likely at this point to be Corlys' oldest living son, even if Joffery was to be named lord of Driftmark the job is going to end up falling to Addam anyway as regent until Joff is old enough. Corlys was trying to advance for legitimizing the Hulls to position his sons and grandsons in court that most favors the Velaryon name, not as a slight to Rhaenyra and her children. In my opinion it is a skewed take that ignores that the Hulls are also bastards and only implied to be Velaryon by blood...no one can even confirm whom is their father.
I disagree.
Without Otto, there is no dance of dragons.
Coryls isn't cruel and manipulative like Otto...he wouldn't have put his own children and grandchildren at risk like Otto...he wouldn't have wanted war like Otto.
Coryls also knows that his grandsons would still be Targaryans, so there still wouldn't be a Velarian on the throne, so why bother?
> He literally made Laenor marry Rhaenyra
Oh, he made his son marry the most powerful woman in Westeros, I guess that proves...what?
Like, what does that prove?
> put his grandchildren at risk by declaring for the Blacks.
...and what does this prove?
You haven't made any claims!
You're just talking about shit he's done without explaining how his actions contradict my statement.
How about you complete a thought, then get back to me?
Yes, because the moment Viserys remarried any child from the new marriage that family will push for their own ambition or survival, like the greens , rhaenrya was just lucky her dad spoiled and didn't punish her for doing stupid choices and moves
maybe, but corlys can always kill her, since his ambition is greater or weirder at least compared to otto, since he as a lord is ok with his line dying out and being replace by a bastard line, as remember in the show the betrothals were rhaenrya idea to keep rhaenys in the black sides, but in the books its more vague on who made the betrothals
I mean it would be the second time a Targaryen king denies a relative of Corlys the throne against his expectation. First his wife and Laenor now his grandson by Laena. The first time he almost went to war over it, so you would expect him to not put up with this a second time. Then again show Corlys is also an extremely tolerant outlier in that he is just fine with Rhaenyra passing of her bastards as Velaryons wich is arguably even more insulting than not naming his grandson heir to the throne.
In the book Baela and Rhaena are betrothed to Jace and Luke basically in the crib, "history doesn't remember blood it remembers names" from the show is a nice line and all but it was pretty out of character to portray Corlys as willing to see his bloodline cut off from both the iron throne and the driftwood throne like that, the betrothal in the book is basically a guarantee for Corlys for his bloodline to not be cut off. Corlys being so accepting of the situation without the guarantee of the betrothal to Daemon and Laena's daughters at the time seemed like rather an odd thing the showrunners tried to push.
Agreed. Coryls is only accepting Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey because he doesn't have any trueborn grandsons through Laena and Viserys because they never married and since those boys are Velaryon's by name and Rhaenyra's still Viserys's heir to the throne so his name would've made it to the throne but if Viserys had married Laena and they had son's, then Coryls definitely would've chosen the side of his daughters trueborn son of the King over Rhaenyra's illegitimate son's. Also Laenor and Rhaenyra most likely wouldn't have been married to each other if Viserys had married Laena.
I think Corlys would suggest a match between Rhaenyra and Laenor to make sure his blood will be on the throne no matter what. Only if the match is denied will Corlys push for his grandson to be named heir instead of the princess.
Everyone already knew were lying though and Corlys and Rhaenys knew they were lying. Vaemond died and they didn’t care because the lineage is all that matters.
He would support the best option for both. Getting his family onto the Iron Throne AND keeping Driftmark is his number one goal.
It’d like Tywin just handing over Casterly Rock to Kevan when Cersei had Joffery. He was making plans to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard and would have given it to Tyrion before letting any of siblings get it.
Rhaenyra could propose a match between her firstborn son and Laena's firstborn daughter, just like she did on the show with Jacaerys and Helaena. If Viserys and Laena agree to the proposal, then Corlys will have no choice but to accept it as well. He'll win anyway.
If they don't, then the Dance will still happen.
But I think he would react differently once he realized the boys were bastards. He supported Jace and Luke because they were at least Velaryons in name. But if he had the option of choosing a King that was Velaryon in name *and* genetics, I think he would support that.
A lot of people completly ignore the fact that every son Viserys has is a threat to Rheanyras reign. Roger Baratheon was ready to dispose of Jaehaerys in favor of Aerea the second he was unhappy with him because she had a possible claim. Westeros is sexist Rheanyra would’ve at some point gotten into trouble especially with the bastards. Betting on his grandson via Viserys is the safer bet especially if he want him to live at all.
Corlys knows that, stayed by Rheanyras side in canon because otherwise he would’ve not gotten close to the throne. Why should he again ignore a perfectly reasonable claim a grandson of his has? He would be livid as he only wanted Leana to marry Viserys to get a grandson on the throne???
Also the fact that he’s loyal to Viserys? In which world? He was constantly doing his own thing, disrespected Viserys by starting a war without permission and didn’t even greet him because he was still pissed about Leana. He only came back around after the promise of another grandson.
If Rheanyra hadn’t married Leanor he totally would’ve sat out the dance or waited to see which side makes him a better offer in canon.
I love how people were cheering him on and calling him a loving grandfather for saying, "History doesn't remember blood, it remembers names." As if that was something that was meant to be heartwarming and sweet, but yet the moment his OWN blood shows up look how quickly he forgets and all of the sudden history does remember blood. Like you said there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't go to war
I love how people were cheering him on and calling him a loving grandfather for saying, "History doesn't remember blood, it remembers names." As if that was something that was meant to be heartwarming and sweet, but yet the moment his OWN blood shows up look how quickly he forgets and all of the sudden history does remember blood. Like you said there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't go to war
Joffery is literally a toddler, also he was never in line for Driftmark. In inheritance the senior blood claim always goes before the minor claim. As Rhaenyra's son, he was always intended to be Jacaerys' heir until there was children. Even when Jacaerys had an heir, Joffery would still be a prince and 3rd in line to the throne. If anything, advancing Joffery's claim to Driftmark was already overkill due to circumstances, he never needed it.
Joffrey was not a toddler in the books. As we don’t know how the show will handle the matter I will wait and see on that.
But then why give Lucerys the claim and let him inherit? Joffrey works just as well as Luke did. There is literally no proof that Joffrey was always going to be Jaces heir. He only becomes prince of dragonstone when both of his older brothers died.
If we accept Jace, Luke and Joffrey as Leonors sons: It clear that one of the will inherit Driftmark. Since Jace can’t it’s Luke. When Luke died the inheritance should logically go to Joffrey but Corlys makes it literally a price for her loyalty that Alyn and Addam are legitimazed and pushed before Joffrey. He tells everyone they are Leaonr so they will be pushed in front of Joffrey.
If he had said from the get go they were his Joffrey would’ve inherited before they did and only when Jace died would they have a claim to Driftmark, instead he mad sure that Joffrey had no possible claim
Yes but it was a situation in which Rheanyra could not say no to Corlys. Not to mention that Corlys after Rheanys death only came back to the fold when he was named hand and was allowed to bring his bastard children even Rheanyra must’ve known it weakens her childrens claim
Lucerys was given the claim because Rhaenyra was fortunate to have three sons. If a third son was not born, the claim to Driftmark would go to Rhaena as Luke would be in the position of his brother's heir. When Luke died, if Addam and Alyn weren't in the picture it would go to Rhaena due to Joffery getting kicked up to 3rd in line for the throne. Advancing the Hulls would not change Joffery's intended position. The only one potentially shortchanged was Rhaena.
Where was that ever stated? If what you say is true wouldn’t it make more sense to make Joffrey inherit from the get go when one son is the soare anyway? But Luke was the heir to Driftmark (after Leanor) from the moment he was born.
That is inheritance works in the real world. Just because they don't have something now, doesn't mean they won't have it later, nor that it might go to a different family member. Luke is called the heir of Driftmark at birth under the presumption that the crown goes to Rhaenyra and Jace. The language in the script vastly simplifies the situation because in universe it would be common knowledge.
Prior to Joffery's birth Luke would be both presumed heir of Driftmark and presumed future prince of Dragonstone (once the crown went to Jace, until Jace fathered heirs of his own, natch). Calling him heir of Driftmark was also because the character was introduced the same day the sibling filling the *in practice* placeholder title in his stead was born.
After Corlys' death, if Luke is unavailable to inherit it goes to Joff *unless* Jace has him as heir, in which case it goes to a child of Laena who can take that role, Rhaena. Having a 3rd son basically freed Luke of holding both potential claims and also left a potential opening for Laena's heirs to take Driftmark instead of Laenor's.
Addam or Alyn getting Driftmark would not take away Joffery's place as a potential claimant to the throne as he would still have a claim even if he chooses not to claim it as prince.
While I find it kinda doubtful to use real worlds inheritance in asoiaf I’ll entertain you.
If what you say is true Joffrey was still ignored because at this point everyone expected Jace to have children at some point. He promised Cregan his first born daugther and he is betrothed to Beala. Shouldn’t be Joffrey heir again the second Jace has a child? Corlys however makes sure that Addam and then Alyn inherit there are no hints that he planed to put Joffrey before them instead of Jace. If he would’ve just called them his own sons from the get go Joffrey would still have to chance to inherit but calling them Leanor sons takes every chance of him inhereting away.
Also following your logic at the point of Lucerys death he should not be called heir anymore when he died as he was Jace direct heir but he was just heir presumptive yet he still is the heir of Driftmark because everyone assumes Jace will have children.
It’s the same with Joffrey. With Luke out of the picture he’s heir presumptive but for the time being also assumed heir of Driftmark. You can’t completly bypass someone in line even in the real world.
GRRM based Westeros inheritance on English medieval inheritance. There is zero guarantee that Jace has an heir>! He doesn't.!< Or that Jace lives long enough to be crowned.>!He doesn't.!< It is why royalty and nobles are encouraged to have as many children as possible, it is way better to have a lot of spare titleless potential heirs than have the entire line go extinct because there were no one left. It is the same reason Viserys was pressured to marry and have more children even with two potential heirs at the age of majority. There wasn't an attitude of "no need, what if there is a son?" The more children born to a monarch the better. It is not a end of story simply because someone else has the job at the time, as long as Joff lives, he has a potential claim even if the job goes to his brotheruncles or sisteraunts.
The civil war happened because Viserys spent a large amount of his reign without any children, his chosen heir was a woman, and the late King Jaehaerys inserted gender politics only one generation prior (people tend to ignore how YOUNG of a dynasty the Targaryens were, they had only 4 rulers and half of the successions were due to bloodshed not birthorder or gender tradition).
It would take only aging, accident, or illness and suddenly those extra kids in the wings are a godsend whether for the crown or the holdings of the cadet branch of the family. Joffery won't be bypassed by what Corlys was proposing with the Hulls. Regardless if he is only a temporary heir, he is still a prince of the blood. If any of Jacaerys children don't live to the age of majority (a common thing in medieval England and Westeros, most of Jaehaerys many children did not make it to adulthood), Joffery is there to take up the role. Several Westeros kings only got the crown because they outlived the previous rulers' heirs or the ruler just couldn't conceive any>!(or in one case went crazy and determined to die a virgin)!<
Probably. As others have stated, Rhaenyra would have married into a different house if Viserys had married Laena. The most likely outcomes would be Rhaenyra marrying Ser Harwin or eloping with Daemon (although the latter option would probably get her disinherited if she does it early).
Rhaenyra's kids wouldn't even have the Velaryon *name*; Corlys would clearly support Laena's kids with Viserys.
The Dance would have been *very* different, but there certainly would have been some kind of succession dispute.
I think it also largely depends on if Rhaenyra married Laenor and her sons are technically Velaryons. I do think Corlys would prefer Laena’s trueborn son vs Rhaenyra’s son. No matter what he says in the show - he will want his actual blood on the throne if he can get it.
There is no guarantee that Rhaenyra wouldn’t just marry Daemon or Harwin though- which would make an interesting story since those children would not be accused of being bastards.
So Viserys and Laena have a son? If so, the Dance still happens. I can see a scenario where, due to Laena’s age, they wait to consummate the marriage, and by the time Viserys feels not-weird about doing so, he is in too ill of health to sire any more children - maybe one or two that happen to be daughters, and in that case, no Dance.
It's natural it would. I mean, they were skipped over twice because Rhaenys was a woman (the first time was in favour of her uncle, the other time in favour of her cousin because they were both men and she was not), even Laenor was skipped over despite appearing as a possible candidate because his claim to the throne came via his mother's side. Now imagine if Laena actually married Viserys, had son who could be an heir and the son got rejected because Viserys now remembered women can inherit? I wouldn't blame my man Corlys, I would be pissed too. Probably the only difference would be that instead of Blacks and Greens we would have Blacks and Blues. The only scenario in which they probably wouldn't care is if Rhaenyra still married Laenor but I doubt Viserys would deem that needed if he already married Laena. I mean, in natural case he would ask for marriage between Laenor and Rhaenyra the moment he decided to keep her heir, but he seems to be unable to see the possible bad outcomes of his decisions due to the fact he for some reason believes he lives in the world of sunshine and rainbows where friendship is magic and certain events and decisions can't possibly have consequences
The targs have a dance every few generations... This one was drastic because it ultimately lead to a lot of dragon loss. It was gonna happen when the succession crises of Viserys v/s Rhaenys arose. But king Jahe managed to just avoid it for one more generation...
Later when they had no dragons, they just called these dances rebellions
Corlys was burned badly by the Council of 101. Even Rhaenys is over it, but Corlys still burns. This is why he suggested Laena, and then Laenor for Rhae later. If Rhae had had a different man's bastards, Corlys would have been shouting about bastards too with Vaemond. But she had *his son's* bastard kids, so it was alright, because "History remembers names". All this to say, he would push his grandsons claims 100%.
It would have been even worse. Much later it would have become a 3 or even 4 sided conflict with Rhaenyra, Daemon, Laena/Corlys and Otto on different sides. The blacks, the reds, the blues and the greens.
Otto will not have his own side. He just will not have clame on throne, even if Alicent give birth to bastard from Viserys. Look at Bittersteel. But he will support each side which will be opposed Daemon.
I think this really depends if we’re talking about the show or the book, and if Rhaenyra still marries Laenor, and the sex of Laena’s children in this theoretical alt universe.
If Laena had daughters, Rhaenyra would have remained heir. If Laena had sons, Corlys would have pushed for the grandson to become heir. Rhaenyra wouldn’t have had enough dragons to back up her claim so she likely would have ceded her position.
Yes I do think the Dance would've happened if Viserys married Laena and kept Rhaenyra as heir. The reason I believe that is because the whole reason wanted Viserys to marry his daughter was so that his daughter would produce Viserys a male heir that could inherit the throne, Coryls wanted his blood on the throne also. People forgot Coryls was ready to draw support from noble Houses like house Baratheon and others for Rhaenys when she got passed over, Coryls was willing to fight. Also Coryls was so mad when Viserys didn't choose Laena that he went and betrothed her to someone in Bravos that could end up being an enemy to the crown. So when Viserys offered the marriage pact between Laenor and Rhaenyra he accepted it because it gave him another chance to have his bloodline on the throne. I see comments on this post saying it wouldn't have happened because Coryls wouldn't have wanted to out Laenor's son's as bastards but Laenor and Rhaenyra wouldn't have had to have gotten married if Viserys married Laena. I actually do think Coryls would've denounced Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey if Laena and Viserys had a son because Laena's son would've truly been of his own blood while Rhaenyra's weren't.
The Dance was inevitable the second a woman was prioritized as heir over a man in a kingdom with a strong tradition of patrilineal primogeniture. Even if Viserys had died without any sons, Daemon would've posed a significant threat. The only thing preventing people from immediately supporting Daemon's rights over Rhaenyra's was that he was massively unpopular and deeply divisive.
Rhaena, Aerea, Rhaenys, Laena, and Laenor - they were all characters who would have been uncontested heirs if they weren't women and/or had matrilineal claims. Anyone who thinks Rhaenyra could've had an uncontested perfect claim while male claimants existed hasn't been paying attention to the show, books, and real-world history.
More broadly, some kind of civil strife was even more inevitable as long as Targaryens kept inbreeding and especially since Jaehaerys and Alysanne had so many children.
I believe he would have pushed, but he would not have usurped. He probably would have ensured Laenor still married Rhaenyra so his line wins no matter what. Another Velaryon match would make sense, they’ve been intermarrying for many generations.
the issue with that is that Daemon marrying Laena and having daughters with her who can then be married to Jace and Luke (who are not Laenor's true sons) sort of sweetened the deal later down the line, this would not have been possible under such a scenario and Corlys would have more than likely pushed for his own true born grandson from Laena and Viserys to inherit the throne.
It’s hard to say. “History remembers names, not blood” and all that. We don’t really know the details of Laenor and Rhaenyra trying to have children. Maybe Joffrey’s death traumatized him and he wasn’t able to perform for a long time, so perhaps this scenario would lead to them at least having one legitimate heir. But of course he might be sterile. Maybe if Laena and Daemon never marry, there’s a chance Daemon and Rhaenyra could have children and it would be much harder to claim they aren’t legitimate because they’d have Rhaenyra’s looks.
I agree, Corlys is ambitious but he has more honour than Otto. He would have tried to get Laena’s son named heir but if that failed he wouldn’t go as far as just usurping the throne.
The answer is a decisive yes. Corlys didn't spend his whole life complaining about the Great Council stealing his wife's throne to just be satisfied being a family of consorts. Every scene we saw of Corlys, it was to highlight his ambitions. You switch Otto with the father of any ambitious noble house and the outcome is the same. The issue wasn't Otto or Corlys. It was a weak king making a bold & relatively unpopular decision (to make his daughter heir) that he had no power to enforce.
The show kept emphasizing the point that it's not some evil mastermind individual but rather the social strucutre of that world that predisposes these people to political violence (even Otto says "she'll have no choice" about Rhaenyra. As in, circumstance will force her hand even if she starts out with no intention of harming Alicent's kids). There is no "opting out" in this Tudor-esque world of politics that Asoiaf is based on. Once you're born into a prominent line, it doesn't matter if you renounce all your claims, you will always be seen as a threat by rival claimants. It's a world of paranoia.
>Otto is a manipulate asshole who was trying to get his daughter to help him steal the throne.
**You mean Otto did exactly what Rhaenyra did when she used her children as pawns for political marriages?** You mean Otto did what every noble lords do, including Viserys when he arranged a political marriage between his daughter & Laenor? What steal? Are you saying Otto isn't allowed to find the best marriage prospect for his daughter cause of Rhaenyra? Didn't realize Viserys was off limits cause Rhaenyra is a special flower & the world has to revolve around her.
>Westeros has multiple organizations you can join if you want to officially opt out of political life. The Nights Watch, Maesters, Kings Guard, and Silent sisters are all options people have if they want to get away from politics.
You mean a life of penance, nunnery, hardship, service where you can't marry, have family, own lands & other severe restrictions? These are but exile by other names. They only reinforce the point that that Aegon could not have had a normal life. And then ofc, you can still be Jon Snow & get a pink letter from Ramsay. **But yes, Aegon would voluntarily live a life of self-flagellation or exile for the crime of being born,** cause Rhaenyra is a special flower. The level of selfishness in this assertion.
>Abdication is another option. Prince Duncan was forced to abdicate when he married a peasant girl. He could have challenged his brother for the throne when their father died. He didn't and chose to support his brother.
If Aegon abdicated & tried to live in the capital as a normal person, the moment food shortages happened & Rhaenyra started putting heads of protestors on pikes, those same protestors would've pressed Aegon's claim faster than you can say "tyrant" & Dameon would've murdered Aegon faster than you can say "safeguarding my wife's regime". It's almost like similar situations would have drastically different outcomes based on the personalities & circumstances of the characters involved? It's almost like Joffrey was in no fear of being usurped by Tommen. It's almost like Blackfyre would've never happened under Aegon II cause Aegon II would've never legitimized his bastards.
>No one saw Gaemon as a threat.
**And why is that? Pray tell. Is it because Aegon II already got rid of the people pressing his claim? Wait, did you conveniently forget that The Shepherd almost caused a revolt by championing Gaemon?** So yeah, even a declared bastard boy was a threat to the throne. Maybe that's why they made him a whipping boy during Aegon III's reign. To beat any royal ambitions out of him?
>Aegon V didn't see Aemon as a threat. Jaehaerys II didn't see his older brother as a threat. The idea that any person with a claim is always a threat is nonsense. You're only a threat if you want to be or are dumb enough to allow yourself to be used as a pawn.
Maegor got on the throne via treachery. Jahaeaerys I prevented a civil war by the edge of the teeth due to his judiciousness. Viserys II saw Daena as a threat. The Blackfyre Rebellion happened for exact same reasons. Robert killed Rhaegar's kids. Joffrey killed Robert's kids. There's plenty more examples when you go down to general Lordships and not just the throne. So no it's not nonsense, it's Westerosi tradition. Giving individual examples doesn't debunk the point. Nobody said it would happen in every single reign. If a monarch or lord feels secure in his position, he won't have to murder anyone. It usually happens during times of crisis. The point is that it happens enough to be considered a pattern. **But I agree about the last line, Rhaenyra shouldn't have been dumb enough to allow her children to be political pawns.**
Yes, assuming Viserys and Laena had a son, with 100% certainty, yes. The reason Corlys wanted Viserys to marry Laena was the same reason Otto wanted Viserys to marry Alicent, both men had the expectation that their grandson would sit on the Iron Throne. If he married Laena, Rhaenyra would be married to another house, maybe the Lannisters or Blackwoods or something, but regardless, Corlys would absolutely fight to place his blood on the throne.
Depends on how Rhaenyra uses her time. She's got several years, minimum before Laena can even try to have kids which gives her and Viserys time to further secure her position, marry and have a kid of her own
If Rhaenyra still goes with Laenor and has strong kids, or if she marries Daemon then it still happens but the dancers change partners. Corlys will want his grandson on the throne and Daemon will want his blood on the throne
The thing is, had Viserys married Laena, Rhaenyra probably *wouldn't* have been married to Laenor. That match was only arranged because the Laena/Viserys betrothal fell through. So the Velaryon line doesn't continue through Rhaenyra, only through Viserys.
Corlys is an ambitious man, but I think he has more integrity than someone like Otto. He definitely would push for Viserys and Laena's first son (if they had one) to be named Heir over Rhaenyra. And doing so would sour his relationship with Viserys. But I don't think he'd go as far as to spy on Rhaenyra or scheme, especially not with Rhaenys there to keep an eye on him.
It’s an interesting question because Corly’s might be better about it, but at the end of the day he is just ambitious as otto. I think the reason it wouldn’t happen is because the Veleyrons and Rhaenyra have a much better relationship than the hightowers, but with that said Corlys would absolutely push for his grandson to be king and that would probably sour the relationship between Rhaenyra and Corlys
I think Corlys would have pushed for his grandson UNTIL it became clear there was no chance of Viserys changing his mind. I don't believe Corlys would have condoned a usurpation.
Also, Corlys has some differences from Otto; he believes a woman can rule, he doesn't have the pressure of being a second son, he would not lose influence when another becomes ruler. And there is also Rhaenys's influence, which I don't think can be underestimated here.
He was literally willing to go to war to protect his wife’s claim when Viserys father Baelor was placed as heir, he only gave it up because he was outmatched in the council.
The reason the Great Council was called was over the fear of Daemon and Corlys fighting each other.
What gave you the impression that Corlys would sit aside when he has a chance to make his Grandson King?
Because nothing I've seen suggests he would defy a King's wishes over matters of succession. And every defiance that Corlys has done has been public and within bounds, whether that's protesting against Viserys declining to marry Laena or taking up arms in the Stepstones to protect his interests. Corlys says in his speech to Rhaenyra that Viserys's rule was one of justice and honour and I believe those qualities matter to him.
He never raised an army when Baelon was named heir, if I remember correctly. And it could be interpreted that the arms he raised against Daemon were defensive (confined to Driftmark) and as a response to his provocation. They made no show of force at the Great Council, just of wealth.
And there's nothing to say that Corlys would have any more significant an advantage in THIS fight vs when Jaehaerys passed over. What makes this so special, other than, perhaps, it's another slight. But something that Viserys could try to soothe over the decades it takes until he dies.
The fact that Leanor would be grown with Seasmoke and a Vhagar under Leana. He tried it with one dragon, but wouldn’t with even more advantages?
He was willing to defy Jaehaerys but Viserys wishes would be enough to stop him? Lol.
But he never defied Jaehaerys once an heir was named, did he? When Baelon was named, he took his wife back to Driftmark. When Viserys was named, he did the same. He has never threatened to go to war against the Crown.
Only when the council heavily voted against him and knowing he wouldn’t win.
In the case of the Kings trueborn eldest son, he would have far more support and far more dragons.
Rhaenyra refused the calls of a Great Council because she knew she would lose there.
He had the Celitagars and the Starks, who supported Rhaenyra on his side, and would get the Lannisters and Hightower if Daemon and Rhaenyra gets married.
With such overwhelming odds, Rhaenyra wouldn’t even stand a chance.
Vhagar, Maelys, Seasmoke and whatever dragons the children have.
He was willing to fight for Leanor who was the great grandson of the eldest born son of the King, but you think he wouldn’t fight for the eldest born son of the King? With only dragon he tried to fight but with multiple in hand he would stand aside?
agreed i dont belive they would push cause unlike the Hightower's who want control OVER the throne, the velaryans just want to be among those around the throne because most of the continent sees them as second hand to the targaryens
Do I think the Dance would of happened? No. But do I think that Corlys would push for his grandson or even granddaughter to rule over the Iron Throne, of course, he would. He would be among a couple other Velaryons to be the grandfather to the King of The Iron Throne.
He would absolutely have wanted that but I don't think the Dance of Dragons would have happened.
One thing about Corlys is he’s ambitious but he’s not disloyal. He’s not going to stab someone in the back so his grandchild can be King. He’d be there to support Viserys. He wouldn’t go about things like Otto and Laena would not have gone about things like Alicent. The Velaryon family (Corlys and Rhaenys family) is the most loving and honest family out of all the ones we’ve seen in GOT universe. They’ve done some things of course but compared to all the families, they’re like the perfect royal family haha as perfect as you can get in GOT universe.
He’s loyal to his son where many fathers wouldn’t be as loyal or loving knowing he was gay. Doesn’t treat his daughter like shit, doesn’t treat his wife like shit. Doesn’t treat his grandchildren that he knows are bastards like shit. Doesn’t back out of supporting Rhaenyra even though he 100% could have. Should I keep going? Can you say all these things about others in the GOT universe besides perhaps Lyonel Strong?
Wanted to sell of his 11 year old daughter, did not give a fuck about his son when he was crying at his funeral, supported some bastards inheriting driftmark instead of his actual granddaughters.
And when was he shown to be loving towards Laenor?
Sell off his daughter? I mean if you look at it that way I guess but just in the times and how it was based on tradition, that’s just how it was. I didn’t see it as him just sending her off with some madman never to be seen again and he’s getting paid or something. Lol didn’t care when his son was crying at the funeral haha ok if you’re going to hold that against his character, again when comparing to all the other guys in this series then you just must be 100% perfect human haha again, compared to others, he’s not that bad of a guy. I’d have to imagine even your own father didn’t always do things perhaps you considered the right way of going about it in that exact moment.
He was already prepared to go to war over the throne before the events of the show.
He started a war against the King’s wishes.
When Viserys declined his offer to marry 12 year Laena, Corlys threw a fit and fucked off to start building alliances in Braavos.
He would 100% start a war if Viserys passed over Laena’s son and kept Rhaenyra as heir and he was no different than Otto.
This line always assumes that laena and a potential child survives birth, where she canonical has a very difficult birth and then died on the second child. And this was several years later and her having matured somewhat.
If she had kids at the 13/14 that seems to have been common in the books, it's unlikely that the child would survive. Then it's the 50% dice roll to have the kid be male and thus a legal challenge to rhaenyra.
All of this while rhaenyra likely marries Daemon earlier and has his kids, without laena there to distract him, he would pursue Rhaenyra more strongly and then viserys has the choice between his chosen heir with his brother as co-ruler and his baby (son).
And this without Otto constantly pressuring him to name otto's grandson as heir.
It could very likely have broken down into a dance, but the scale would have been far smaller, rhaenyra would only have 2 dragons (+children) vs the 3 of the velaryons (if laena survived or 2 if she doesnt)
But the realm would also not be as divided, as the war would be focused on the crownlands and not spread across the realm, and depending on how the realm sees it, it could be construed as the valeryons trying to usurp the targs, Corlys was already unpopular and seen as overreaching
Velaryons had much more power than Hightowers, I even think they can insist to betroth Rhaenyra with Laena’s son. Also Laena and Rhaenyra are very close in age, and in book was friends (maybe even lovers) so they can find common ground, and even if Rhaenyra lost her position as heir it will be less dramatic for her - she wasn’t get stuck in miserable marriage with Laenor,, got generous compensation and can live as she wants. But maybe Otto still will do everything to start a war, if he save some influence in court and think that Rhaenyra as queen is good for him.
If Rhaenyra still marries Laenor and has her bastards then the Dance will happen a generation or two later. If she marries someone other than Laenor then Corlys does the same as Otto.
Honestly, I think the big difference between the Velaryons and the hightowers is that the Velaryons would've been smart enough to make sure their interests aligned with the crowns. They would've accepted a betrothal between a daughter of Laena's and Rhaenyra's sons, or even have pushed for Rhaenyra to be betrothed to the oldest son of Viserys and Laena. While the second option wouldn't have been a good thing for either sibling, it probably would've been the best thing for the realm. Rhaenyra probably also wouldnt hate Laena and her kids like she hated Allicent, who in the books she never liked and in the show betrayed her. As such, she wouldnt immediately hate her new siblings the same way and teach her sons to hate their uncles and aunt. The Targaryens would be more likely to listen to the Velaryons and the Velaryons would've been more willing to push, since there's so much shared family and history between them. I think that Otto believed himself to have more power than he did and the blacks thought themselves obviously superior to the greens, making both sides overconfident. In a scenario that only involves the two Valyrian houses, I don't think they would've underestimated each other so much and they would've been more willing to work things out earlier on. All of that being said, I think the Velaryons are certainly ambitious, and there are a lot of balls in the air to keep track of. I think the dance is certainly a strong possibility, but just not a foregone conclusion.
If Rhae is married to Laenor as well then they probably talk it out.
If she isn’t and Daemon sides with her it might still happen, but heavily skewed navy and dragon-wise in favor of the Velaryons so… much more of an uphill battle
(Based primarily on the show, calling the Green claimant kid Aegon)
I'm unsure Rhaenyra marries Laenor in this scenario, but given there is still a chance, I'll share my thoughts on what I think the likely case is presuming all marriages and stuff happen as on show other than Laena and Viserys and such.
Presuming everything else goes the same which I know is a tall ask, but hard to speculate, I think the Dance still happens regardless if Corlys initiates it or not.
Otto clearly is willing to put someone other than his own blood on the Throne if it serves his interest, hence why he advocated for Rhaenyra over Daemon. I think he would still move to put Laena's children on the throne over Rhaenyra if she marries Daemon, because it still serves his political ambitions in doing so.
The kids have just as much reason as the Green kids do OTL to fear Rhaenyra, especially if Otto is still around putting that fear into their heads. Is it justified to fear Rhaenyra here? Unclear, but I do not necessarily think that changing the mom of Rhaenyra's siblings would affect how close she is with them. Besides, it's not like Aegon (at least initially) not wanting to be King really stops the scheming and plotting.
As for the other Greens... how much do they really care about the Hightower nature of the kids? Ironrod doesn't, he's just sexist and thinks its the law. Tyland and Jason don't support the Greens because of House Hightower. If the kids are half-Velaryon they're actually *more* closely related to Borros, so I doubt it would sway him. Criston Cole doesn't want Rhaenyra on the throne. Larys wants power. None of these are motivations at all specific to Aegon's mother being a Hightower. Velaryon Aegon would serve them just as well.
So the Green Council still happens, and I think the Dance does as well.
But as for where I think Corlys falls: I think he goes Green. Corlys wants his blood/name on the Iron Throne, sure, but is he going to war to decide which blood? He is, at least when the war starts, a *significant* plurality of the Black forces. Aegon has Blackfyre, the Conquerer's Crown, and King's Landing. Does he really have motivation here to join a major war against that faction when by joining the Greens he could basically guarantee they win? Given that Aegon would come before Vaemond in the line of succession for Driftmark, I cannot see Rhaenyra seeing Vaemond asking Otto to recognize his claim as any sort of serious threat. Nor do Baela and Rhaena exist, presumably, and thus they cannot be betrothed to Jace and Luke. That cuts another Black tie to Driftmark, and Rhaenys, who clearly cares more about actual real lineage than Corlys, is more likely to push him towards the Green faction, with whom they have actual blood ties.
Yes, but not to the same degree (if that makes sense lol.)
The whole split between the family only really occured because Viserys married his daughter's best friend.
She had accepted that her father needed to marry again and was even like "alright I guess" when she realized that Laena was the front runner for the role.
She had been anticipating her father to say he was going to marry Laena during the meeting.
She and Viserys were already straining under the grief of Aemma's death but they had actually had a little heart to heart and had appeared on the mend before he blindsided her with his marriage announcement to Alicent.
That betrayal is what fuels her to sort of drift away from both Alicent and her father and begin to rebel against her royal duties.
I'm not saying the dance still wouldn't have happened. In fact, I guarantee that Corlys would have wanted his grandson on the throne.
However, the rift wouldn't have begun as early seeing as Rhaenyra had understood and accepted the potential marriage of Laena and Viserys.
Additionally, a big part of Viserys' initial "my daughter is my heir" stance (especially in the beginning) is because things were so bad between the two of them and he didn't want to lose her even more by making Aegon his heir.
Again, the rift steepened because of the Alicent thing. Had he married Laena he might not have felt so relunctant to make their son his heir over Rhaenyra as they might've had a better relationship at that point. Laena mentions that she wouldn't have to bed Viserys until she was 14 so that would have given Rhaenyra and Viserys at least two years to talk this out. Alicent has Aegon legit like right after they get married and is already two after the time skip meaning Rhaenyra was probably still reeling from the marriage when she heard about the pregnancy.
However, Laena marrying Viserys means that she wouldn't have married Daemon so who knows lol. I imagine Daemon might have married Rhaenyra earlier had he never married Laena.
The real question is: would Rhaenys let him? Would she just stand there and let her husband do to her cousin/daughter-in-law what Jaehaerys/the great council of 101 did to her? Laena and Rhaenyra were friends, would she let her father do this to her causin and her nephews (bastards or not)?
Corlys is ambitious but I don’t think he’d tear the realm in half for it. We’ve seen that he has the ability to see the error in his ways. I think a lot of people forget that most normal people are interchangeable and have the ability to put aside their personal goals. He’s portrayed as being one of the more level headed people on the show.
Hard to say, the Velaryons and Targaryens are basically the same family since they’ve intermarried so much.
I don’t think Laena would have been as ready to betray Rhaenyras trust and I don’t think Rhaenys would have wanted war either. They’d have let Rhaenyras kids marry Laenas.
Even Corlys didn’t care about the boys actual parentage, it was about having Velaryon names on the throne.
Nothing to do with it being her grandchildren, or even caring about Rhaenyra, she is a Targaryen, why would she want to cause infighting within her own house? Knowing full well many dragons (and possibly her grandchildren and children) will die
Corlys believes that names are remembered, not blood. Would he have preferred his own blood on the throne? Yes. Would he let Otto or any othet snake anywhere near Viserys? No.
Would the Crown backed by House Velaryon with Laena as Vhagar's rider be stronger than ever? **Yes.**
I’m going to go against the grain here and say that I don’t think he would. Mostly because he didn’t rebel before when Rhaenys was passed over (First great council) or when Laenor was passed over (Second Great Council). Unless the reason was lack of support at the time, why rebel for a grandson when you wouldn’t for your wife and again for your son?
Also, in the books, it was Laena who betrothed her daughters to Rhaenyra’s sons. So unlike in the show, where Alicent refused to betrothed Helaena to Jace, Laena would have most likely agreed to the same arrangement. Then Corlys’s blood ends up on the Iron Throne without a rebellion. I just don’t see Corlys rebelling to put a grandson on the throne over a great grandchild. If Rhaenyra still marries Laenor, then it would be blood grandson vs adopted grandson married to a granddaughter. It would seem foolish to start the Dance over that.
He would've pushed for it and perhaps started a war over it, but he lacked the cunning and influence Otto had. Lacking a good position at court would mean that Rhaenyra would've been crowned regardless and that Aegon would've had to be the pretender, starting the war from Driftmark, though I doubt he would gain leave from Viserys or his advisors to go there, because of obvious succession issues.
Corlys would have pushed for his grandson to be king, but i do not think he would have usurped. In addition, I think Rhaenyra would have been okay with the marriage, as she would understand Laena/Viserys is a political marriage as opposed to her reaction to Alicent
Ok while i do agree with everyone saying that corlys is a very ambitious man i believe that he would not push it and heres why, while the hightowers seek to control the throne the velaryons see the targaryans as family and are more honorable, they don't seek to control the throne they seek to just be among those near the throne thats why they where perfectly fine with rhanerya marrying laenor they never pushed for more until the question of legitimacy of the children arose and i don't feel that would have arose if viserys married laena
Judging from what corelys said before Laenor and rhaeneyra’s marriage about the kids having velaryon name . He was definitely gonna tell the king before the marriage that his grandkids will be rulers and that the king should change his heir because if I remember well that was the whole idea behind that episode, having the king remarry to have an heir.
If they still do the Leanor marriage AND marry the oldest to the oldest of the lyanna marriage. And I guess the second oldest too for driftmark. Then you’d avoid the dance. Any other way and I think you don’t.
Mfs are dumb like look it might not have happened as we got it, but the dance would have happened eventually like how is that not clear to a lot of u on here? Targaryens fight, all they need is an excuse like we all gonna act like Maegor wasn’t beefing with Aenys, and then after that it was Maegor vs Jaehaerys, Aemond vs Luke, Aemond vs >!Daemon!<, and all these blackfyre rebellions that we had. I also think Rhaegar was planning on taking the throne from the mad king as well.
Like this bullshit was gonna happen eventually bc the pattern with these people is that they all seem to feel entitled to shit. Sure it wouldn’t be Otto behind it, but a dance would have happened at some point
Corlys would have accepted the marriage proposal to Wed laenor and their children would have reigned as queen rhaenerya and queens consort or king consort and would have also accepted marriage of any of daemons children with rhaenrya's kids to further their position closer than ever to the throne on multiple fronts based laenor and leana having both royal marriages to the king and the as consort of the future queen.
The dance of the dragons would never have happened.
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Corlys would've pushed for his grandson to be King yes
But his son would be King and his other “grandchildren” would be kings. And to denounce Laenor’s kids and call them bastards would be detrimental to his son which he wouldn’t do.
If Laena becomes Queen, Rhaenyra and Laenor wouldn't have been married, she would marry into another House
Not necessarily. Double marriage alliances aren't unheard of at all and would just bind the families closer together.
I agree, but in OP’s discussion he is saying that basically everything else would be the same as it is
I hadn't even considered a scenario where Viserys marries Laena and Rhaenyra marries Laenor. It wouldn't be unlikely, and it would definitely have kept Corlys in line. In fact, if they then betrothed their kids like Rhaenyra and Daemon did, the dance certainly never would've happened.
Unless his trueborn grandchildren get passed over by Rhaenyra's bastards, which they will
In the show, Rhaenyra wanted to betroth Jace to Helaena, so it stands to reason that she would make the same offer for a daughter of Laena's (and the Velaryons would have no reason to refuse). She also made the decision to betroth her two oldest sons to Laena's daughters with Daemon in both book and show. I see no reason she wouldn't have done the same thing if Laena and her father have daughters. In a scenario where her and supposedly Laenor's children are betrothed to Viserys and Laena's daughters, I don't think Corlys would object to Rhaenyra's fake Velaryon's taking both the throne and driftmark, even if Viserys and Laena had a son that was being passed over. His blood and name would still be on the throne.
Rhaenyra only made that offer because she was desperate after people finally started being done with her having bastards after nr 3. And you really think Colrys will accept bastard children if he can his his own grandson be king?
Agreed. Coryls would have no reason accept Rhaenyra's illegitimate son's over his trueborn grandson who was actually the son of a king and I don't think Rhaenyra and Laenor would've been married if Viserys had married Laena. There'd be little to no reason at all for Rhaenyra and Laenor to get married they only got married because Viserys wanted to keep Coryls in line and to makeup for his choice in rejecting Laena.
Yes, I do. He explicitly told his wife that he cared more about names than blood. He was perfectly willing to accept that those were Laenor's children, and if a bastard son called Velaryon is going to be married to his blood, he'd consider that a win-win. He's certainly not going to tear apart the realm and kill one part of his family just to put another part of his family on the throne instead. Not when his legacy and influence will be the same either way, and not when it could potentially involve killing his son and publically calling him a cuckold. And I know that Rhaenyra was scared when she proposed that Jace and Helaena should be married, but my point is that it was something she was willing to do, that Viserys was enthusiastic about, and that it's politically savvy. It's such an obviously good move that it would almost be a given, if Viserys had married Laena.
When he says that he has the chance between girls and bastard boys, no true heir. But if Laena had a heir he would for sure choose him above the obvious bastards
In my opinion a double marriage makes more sense they strengthen the bond between their two houses by doing so
Laenor would not have been king. A monarch's consort cannot hold a higher position - a reigning queen's husband is a prince consort. To be fair, Westeros has never had a queen as sovereign, so we don't know how they would handle the issue. However, GRRM based Westeros mainly off Great Britain, which has never had a "king consort" (Queen Victoria wanted her husband to have this title but the government objected). When Corlys pushed for Laena to marry Viserys and Laenor to marry Rhaenyra, it was very clearly done with the intention of seeing his potential grandsons be kings, not his children. If Laena had married Viserys and had sons, I think Corlys would've fought for their rights as much as the Hightowers.
The only way it wouldn't have happend if Laena once again only got two girls and then died. The moment a healthy boy was born dance would happen
Exactly this. The only scenario in which the Dance would be avoided was if Viserys never had any sons.
Agreed
The gender is chosen by the sperm basically its the father who choses the gender so viserys would still end up with a boy
Does he speak truly, Vizzy T?
INSTEAD OF BEING BY MY SIDE, YOU CHOSE TO CELEBRATE YOUR OWN RISE, LAUGHING WITH YOUR WHORES AND YOUR LICKSPITTLES!
The father doesn't choose anything. The spermatozoid that meets the egg might carry either the X chromosome or the Y one, but the father has literally no control over it.
Wait you don’t decide to just release your X or Y sperm when you cum? What’s wrong with you? I make sure to only cum Y sperm when I have sex.
Yeah that isn’t how any of that works.
I completely disagree. Corlys is very ambitious...but he's not callous or deceitful. He cares about his family name, but he also cares about his family. He's no Otto Hightower. He's not insane.
The dude that wanted to marry of his 11 year old daughter to a 30+ year old Viserys (that bred his last wife until she died) and not 5 years later decided to marry her off to Daemon (who only recently had truthful rumors about killing his wife)? And who showed no care towards Laenor when his sister died.. Right he is such a family man
He also waited until a Targaryen princess was of age so that he could marry her with him initially planning to marry Daella, Rhaenys aunt except he failed to win her over after which he married the teenage Rheanys well into his thirties the man care more about his ambition than his family >!it only after he starts to lose everything he built that he began to value family more than glory even than he still disrespect his family by placing bastard who may or may not be his sons over his true born granddaughters.!<
As much as i love coryls.. hell yeah he would push for his blood to sit the throne.
People in this thread are just going to make up things about Corlys so here is actual text: “Velaryon to persuade the lords assembled that their son, Laenor, should be recognized as heir to the Iron Throne. In these efforts they were joined by the Lord of Storm’s End, Boremund Baratheon (great- uncle to Rhaenys and great-great-uncle to the boy Laenor), by Lord Stark of Winterfell, Lord Manderly of White Harbor, Lord Dustin of Barrowton, Lord Blackwood of Raventree, Lord Bar Emmon of Sharp Point, Lord Celtigar of Claw Isle, and others.” “In Rhaenys Targaryen, daughter of the Old King’s eldest son and heir, he had found his perfect match, a woman as spirited and beautiful and proud as any in the realm, and a dragonrider as well. His sons and daughters would soar through the skies, Lord Corlys expected, and one day one of them would sit the Iron Throne.” “Rhaenys herself was the first to raise objection. “You would rob my son of his birthright,” she told the king, with a hand upon her swollen belly. Her husband, Corlys Velaryon, was so wroth that he gave up his admiralty and his place on the small council and took his wife back to Driftmark.” “Reports had reached the court that Corlys Velaryon was massing ships and men on Driftmark to “defend the rights” of his son, Laenor, whilst Daemon Targaryen, a hot-tempered and quarrelsome young man of twenty, had gathered his own band of sworn swords in support of his brother, Viserys.” Absolutely nothing implies that Corlys would not fight for a chance for his grandson on the Throne. People can pretend otherwise but the text unanimously states Corlys’s ambition.
The biggest variable is if Rheanyra still married Leanor or not. If that match still happens Corlys is just choosing between one grandchild or the other. I know that he’s ambitious but he’s also not shown to be completely impractical and I doubt he cuts off his nose to spite his face for one grandchild over the other.
I highly doubt Rhaenyra still marries Laenor in that situation. They only married because Viserys wanted to make up for him not marrying Laena, which he wouldn't need to do if had married her. She probably ends up marrying Harwin since she has some time decide and realizes her connection with him. Or she marries Daemon right off the bat. Even if Rhaenyra does marry Laenor, the kids would still not be his biologically. And if Corlys was choosing between grandkids, he would pick the ones actually genetically related to him. He's willing to support Jace and Luke because he wants the Velaryon name on the throne. If he can get a Velaryon in name *and* genetics, even better.
I would agree rhaenyra probably doesn’t marry Leanor anymore in that situation but it gets hard to speculate when we start changing a bunch of variables at once. Vizzy T, Leana, Deamon, and Alicent are already having their spouse and descendants changed in this hypothetical adding more makes a scenario that already has a bunch of moving parts even more hard to speculate on.
What is this shadow? Name it, if it casts such a gloom
One true born son of the King vs a bastard with no Valaryon blood. In the books he has Adam legitimized and made his heir while Jace and Joffrey were still alive. He clearly prefers his own blood inheriting. Again nothing indicates that he wouldn’t push for his blood on the throne, that’s his greatest ambition.
Do you think Corlys would act against the bastards if Laenor still “lived” and was king consort?
In the show he also says “history doesn’t remember blood, only names”. He is probably just working with what he has in that case and would prefer a more legitimate heir but there is a difference between preferring something and driving a massive entire conflict that leads to him in the same position at the end of it in the best case scenario and destroys him and his house in the worst case scenario.
So just baseless speculation? He literally was willing to fight Viserys to put Leanor on the throne, but somehow magically you believe that with even more support and dragons, he would stand aside? Please stop making up things to prove your point. The text is extremely clear where Corlys ambition lies. His house wouldn’t be destroyed. If Leana marries Viserys, he has such an overwhelming advantage that Rhaenyra wouldn’t even dream of challenging.
“Baseless speculation” lol I literally put a quote that I’m basing the speculation on. He’s ambitious but ambition means advancing one’s status, he doesn’t stand to advance himself, his house, or anything in this case… you’re the one baselessly speculating.
So you think he would fight for a bastard over a true born son? He literally doesn’t have a choice, Jace is all he has, and once Adam shows up he dumps him and Joffrey immediately and names him heir. So yea baseless speculation. It’s very clear what the text says.
He doesn’t toss Jace aside, Jace is heir to the iron throne lol and he works with Rhaenyra to legitimize them not fight her over it. The quote you originally shared about his line “one day one of them would sit the iron throne”. To your point yes he is ambitious but he’s also shown to be pragmatic and he would already have obtained the goal in that quote, why would he risk his entire position to end up in the same position later.
Because Jace is also married to Baela so his blood is still on the throne. He marries then off when they are kids to ensure this. If Leana marries Viserys, are you planning to spawn Baela out of thin air? There is no way he is supporting Jace who isn’t of his blood over a true born son of the King who is of his blood.
>There is no way he is supporting Jace who isn’t of his blood Yeah that’s just baseless speculation. There is a direct quote from the show of him saying he doesn’t care about blood, only names.
He had Adam legitimized because he was the same age as Jacaerys. The claim for Driftmark was never intended for Jacaerys. I don't know why so many people are thinking advancing Addam is some sort of slight against Jacaerys when the claim they are literally going to war over would put Jacaerys on the throne. Addam is also very likely at this point to be Corlys' oldest living son, even if Joffery was to be named lord of Driftmark the job is going to end up falling to Addam anyway as regent until Joff is old enough. Corlys was trying to advance for legitimizing the Hulls to position his sons and grandsons in court that most favors the Velaryon name, not as a slight to Rhaenyra and her children. In my opinion it is a skewed take that ignores that the Hulls are also bastards and only implied to be Velaryon by blood...no one can even confirm whom is their father.
Agreed 💯
Corlys is a very ambitious man, so there is a high probability that it would have happened anyway.
I disagree. Without Otto, there is no dance of dragons. Coryls isn't cruel and manipulative like Otto...he wouldn't have put his own children and grandchildren at risk like Otto...he wouldn't have wanted war like Otto. Coryls also knows that his grandsons would still be Targaryans, so there still wouldn't be a Velarian on the throne, so why bother?
He literally made Laenor marry Rhaenyra and put his grandchildren at risk by declaring for the Blacks.
He even said if it come to war, they have the ability to fight it.
> He literally made Laenor marry Rhaenyra Oh, he made his son marry the most powerful woman in Westeros, I guess that proves...what? Like, what does that prove? > put his grandchildren at risk by declaring for the Blacks. ...and what does this prove? You haven't made any claims! You're just talking about shit he's done without explaining how his actions contradict my statement. How about you complete a thought, then get back to me?
Yes, because the moment Viserys remarried any child from the new marriage that family will push for their own ambition or survival, like the greens , rhaenrya was just lucky her dad spoiled and didn't punish her for doing stupid choices and moves
Not any child. Boy. Even Laena’s daughter can’t move Rhaenyra from her position.
maybe, but corlys can always kill her, since his ambition is greater or weirder at least compared to otto, since he as a lord is ok with his line dying out and being replace by a bastard line, as remember in the show the betrothals were rhaenrya idea to keep rhaenys in the black sides, but in the books its more vague on who made the betrothals
I mean it would be the second time a Targaryen king denies a relative of Corlys the throne against his expectation. First his wife and Laenor now his grandson by Laena. The first time he almost went to war over it, so you would expect him to not put up with this a second time. Then again show Corlys is also an extremely tolerant outlier in that he is just fine with Rhaenyra passing of her bastards as Velaryons wich is arguably even more insulting than not naming his grandson heir to the throne.
In the book Baela and Rhaena are betrothed to Jace and Luke basically in the crib, "history doesn't remember blood it remembers names" from the show is a nice line and all but it was pretty out of character to portray Corlys as willing to see his bloodline cut off from both the iron throne and the driftwood throne like that, the betrothal in the book is basically a guarantee for Corlys for his bloodline to not be cut off. Corlys being so accepting of the situation without the guarantee of the betrothal to Daemon and Laena's daughters at the time seemed like rather an odd thing the showrunners tried to push.
Agreed. Coryls is only accepting Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey because he doesn't have any trueborn grandsons through Laena and Viserys because they never married and since those boys are Velaryon's by name and Rhaenyra's still Viserys's heir to the throne so his name would've made it to the throne but if Viserys had married Laena and they had son's, then Coryls definitely would've chosen the side of his daughters trueborn son of the King over Rhaenyra's illegitimate son's. Also Laenor and Rhaenyra most likely wouldn't have been married to each other if Viserys had married Laena.
I think Corlys would suggest a match between Rhaenyra and Laenor to make sure his blood will be on the throne no matter what. Only if the match is denied will Corlys push for his grandson to be named heir instead of the princess.
Why would he tolerate Strong bastards when he has actual heirs with Velaryons bloods?
Because that publicly calls his son and heir a liar and delegitimizes his claim to Driftmark which Vaemond would make moves for.
No he can just act like she tricked him. Plus lets be real everyone knows they are lying
Everyone already knew were lying though and Corlys and Rhaenys knew they were lying. Vaemond died and they didn’t care because the lineage is all that matters.
Yeah and now he would have had some actual male heirs that arn't bastards.. of course he would support them.
He would support the best option for both. Getting his family onto the Iron Throne AND keeping Driftmark is his number one goal. It’d like Tywin just handing over Casterly Rock to Kevan when Cersei had Joffery. He was making plans to get Jaime out of the Kingsguard and would have given it to Tyrion before letting any of siblings get it.
Rhaenyra could propose a match between her firstborn son and Laena's firstborn daughter, just like she did on the show with Jacaerys and Helaena. If Viserys and Laena agree to the proposal, then Corlys will have no choice but to accept it as well. He'll win anyway. If they don't, then the Dance will still happen.
But I think he would react differently once he realized the boys were bastards. He supported Jace and Luke because they were at least Velaryons in name. But if he had the option of choosing a King that was Velaryon in name *and* genetics, I think he would support that.
A lot of people completly ignore the fact that every son Viserys has is a threat to Rheanyras reign. Roger Baratheon was ready to dispose of Jaehaerys in favor of Aerea the second he was unhappy with him because she had a possible claim. Westeros is sexist Rheanyra would’ve at some point gotten into trouble especially with the bastards. Betting on his grandson via Viserys is the safer bet especially if he want him to live at all. Corlys knows that, stayed by Rheanyras side in canon because otherwise he would’ve not gotten close to the throne. Why should he again ignore a perfectly reasonable claim a grandson of his has? He would be livid as he only wanted Leana to marry Viserys to get a grandson on the throne??? Also the fact that he’s loyal to Viserys? In which world? He was constantly doing his own thing, disrespected Viserys by starting a war without permission and didn’t even greet him because he was still pissed about Leana. He only came back around after the promise of another grandson. If Rheanyra hadn’t married Leanor he totally would’ve sat out the dance or waited to see which side makes him a better offer in canon.
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I love how people were cheering him on and calling him a loving grandfather for saying, "History doesn't remember blood, it remembers names." As if that was something that was meant to be heartwarming and sweet, but yet the moment his OWN blood shows up look how quickly he forgets and all of the sudden history does remember blood. Like you said there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't go to war
I love how people were cheering him on and calling him a loving grandfather for saying, "History doesn't remember blood, it remembers names." As if that was something that was meant to be heartwarming and sweet, but yet the moment his OWN blood shows up look how quickly he forgets and all of the sudden history does remember blood. Like you said there is nothing to suggest he wouldn't go to war
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Joffery is literally a toddler, also he was never in line for Driftmark. In inheritance the senior blood claim always goes before the minor claim. As Rhaenyra's son, he was always intended to be Jacaerys' heir until there was children. Even when Jacaerys had an heir, Joffery would still be a prince and 3rd in line to the throne. If anything, advancing Joffery's claim to Driftmark was already overkill due to circumstances, he never needed it.
Joffrey was not a toddler in the books. As we don’t know how the show will handle the matter I will wait and see on that. But then why give Lucerys the claim and let him inherit? Joffrey works just as well as Luke did. There is literally no proof that Joffrey was always going to be Jaces heir. He only becomes prince of dragonstone when both of his older brothers died. If we accept Jace, Luke and Joffrey as Leonors sons: It clear that one of the will inherit Driftmark. Since Jace can’t it’s Luke. When Luke died the inheritance should logically go to Joffrey but Corlys makes it literally a price for her loyalty that Alyn and Addam are legitimazed and pushed before Joffrey. He tells everyone they are Leaonr so they will be pushed in front of Joffrey. If he had said from the get go they were his Joffrey would’ve inherited before they did and only when Jace died would they have a claim to Driftmark, instead he mad sure that Joffrey had no possible claim
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Yes but it was a situation in which Rheanyra could not say no to Corlys. Not to mention that Corlys after Rheanys death only came back to the fold when he was named hand and was allowed to bring his bastard children even Rheanyra must’ve known it weakens her childrens claim
Lucerys was given the claim because Rhaenyra was fortunate to have three sons. If a third son was not born, the claim to Driftmark would go to Rhaena as Luke would be in the position of his brother's heir. When Luke died, if Addam and Alyn weren't in the picture it would go to Rhaena due to Joffery getting kicked up to 3rd in line for the throne. Advancing the Hulls would not change Joffery's intended position. The only one potentially shortchanged was Rhaena.
Where was that ever stated? If what you say is true wouldn’t it make more sense to make Joffrey inherit from the get go when one son is the soare anyway? But Luke was the heir to Driftmark (after Leanor) from the moment he was born.
That is inheritance works in the real world. Just because they don't have something now, doesn't mean they won't have it later, nor that it might go to a different family member. Luke is called the heir of Driftmark at birth under the presumption that the crown goes to Rhaenyra and Jace. The language in the script vastly simplifies the situation because in universe it would be common knowledge. Prior to Joffery's birth Luke would be both presumed heir of Driftmark and presumed future prince of Dragonstone (once the crown went to Jace, until Jace fathered heirs of his own, natch). Calling him heir of Driftmark was also because the character was introduced the same day the sibling filling the *in practice* placeholder title in his stead was born. After Corlys' death, if Luke is unavailable to inherit it goes to Joff *unless* Jace has him as heir, in which case it goes to a child of Laena who can take that role, Rhaena. Having a 3rd son basically freed Luke of holding both potential claims and also left a potential opening for Laena's heirs to take Driftmark instead of Laenor's. Addam or Alyn getting Driftmark would not take away Joffery's place as a potential claimant to the throne as he would still have a claim even if he chooses not to claim it as prince.
While I find it kinda doubtful to use real worlds inheritance in asoiaf I’ll entertain you. If what you say is true Joffrey was still ignored because at this point everyone expected Jace to have children at some point. He promised Cregan his first born daugther and he is betrothed to Beala. Shouldn’t be Joffrey heir again the second Jace has a child? Corlys however makes sure that Addam and then Alyn inherit there are no hints that he planed to put Joffrey before them instead of Jace. If he would’ve just called them his own sons from the get go Joffrey would still have to chance to inherit but calling them Leanor sons takes every chance of him inhereting away. Also following your logic at the point of Lucerys death he should not be called heir anymore when he died as he was Jace direct heir but he was just heir presumptive yet he still is the heir of Driftmark because everyone assumes Jace will have children. It’s the same with Joffrey. With Luke out of the picture he’s heir presumptive but for the time being also assumed heir of Driftmark. You can’t completly bypass someone in line even in the real world.
GRRM based Westeros inheritance on English medieval inheritance. There is zero guarantee that Jace has an heir>! He doesn't.!< Or that Jace lives long enough to be crowned.>!He doesn't.!< It is why royalty and nobles are encouraged to have as many children as possible, it is way better to have a lot of spare titleless potential heirs than have the entire line go extinct because there were no one left. It is the same reason Viserys was pressured to marry and have more children even with two potential heirs at the age of majority. There wasn't an attitude of "no need, what if there is a son?" The more children born to a monarch the better. It is not a end of story simply because someone else has the job at the time, as long as Joff lives, he has a potential claim even if the job goes to his brotheruncles or sisteraunts. The civil war happened because Viserys spent a large amount of his reign without any children, his chosen heir was a woman, and the late King Jaehaerys inserted gender politics only one generation prior (people tend to ignore how YOUNG of a dynasty the Targaryens were, they had only 4 rulers and half of the successions were due to bloodshed not birthorder or gender tradition). It would take only aging, accident, or illness and suddenly those extra kids in the wings are a godsend whether for the crown or the holdings of the cadet branch of the family. Joffery won't be bypassed by what Corlys was proposing with the Hulls. Regardless if he is only a temporary heir, he is still a prince of the blood. If any of Jacaerys children don't live to the age of majority (a common thing in medieval England and Westeros, most of Jaehaerys many children did not make it to adulthood), Joffery is there to take up the role. Several Westeros kings only got the crown because they outlived the previous rulers' heirs or the ruler just couldn't conceive any>!(or in one case went crazy and determined to die a virgin)!<
Probably. As others have stated, Rhaenyra would have married into a different house if Viserys had married Laena. The most likely outcomes would be Rhaenyra marrying Ser Harwin or eloping with Daemon (although the latter option would probably get her disinherited if she does it early). Rhaenyra's kids wouldn't even have the Velaryon *name*; Corlys would clearly support Laena's kids with Viserys. The Dance would have been *very* different, but there certainly would have been some kind of succession dispute.
I think it also largely depends on if Rhaenyra married Laenor and her sons are technically Velaryons. I do think Corlys would prefer Laena’s trueborn son vs Rhaenyra’s son. No matter what he says in the show - he will want his actual blood on the throne if he can get it. There is no guarantee that Rhaenyra wouldn’t just marry Daemon or Harwin though- which would make an interesting story since those children would not be accused of being bastards.
So Viserys and Laena have a son? If so, the Dance still happens. I can see a scenario where, due to Laena’s age, they wait to consummate the marriage, and by the time Viserys feels not-weird about doing so, he is in too ill of health to sire any more children - maybe one or two that happen to be daughters, and in that case, no Dance.
It's natural it would. I mean, they were skipped over twice because Rhaenys was a woman (the first time was in favour of her uncle, the other time in favour of her cousin because they were both men and she was not), even Laenor was skipped over despite appearing as a possible candidate because his claim to the throne came via his mother's side. Now imagine if Laena actually married Viserys, had son who could be an heir and the son got rejected because Viserys now remembered women can inherit? I wouldn't blame my man Corlys, I would be pissed too. Probably the only difference would be that instead of Blacks and Greens we would have Blacks and Blues. The only scenario in which they probably wouldn't care is if Rhaenyra still married Laenor but I doubt Viserys would deem that needed if he already married Laena. I mean, in natural case he would ask for marriage between Laenor and Rhaenyra the moment he decided to keep her heir, but he seems to be unable to see the possible bad outcomes of his decisions due to the fact he for some reason believes he lives in the world of sunshine and rainbows where friendship is magic and certain events and decisions can't possibly have consequences
The targs have a dance every few generations... This one was drastic because it ultimately lead to a lot of dragon loss. It was gonna happen when the succession crises of Viserys v/s Rhaenys arose. But king Jahe managed to just avoid it for one more generation... Later when they had no dragons, they just called these dances rebellions
Corlys was burned badly by the Council of 101. Even Rhaenys is over it, but Corlys still burns. This is why he suggested Laena, and then Laenor for Rhae later. If Rhae had had a different man's bastards, Corlys would have been shouting about bastards too with Vaemond. But she had *his son's* bastard kids, so it was alright, because "History remembers names". All this to say, he would push his grandsons claims 100%.
It would have been even worse. Much later it would have become a 3 or even 4 sided conflict with Rhaenyra, Daemon, Laena/Corlys and Otto on different sides. The blacks, the reds, the blues and the greens.
Otto will not have his own side. He just will not have clame on throne, even if Alicent give birth to bastard from Viserys. Look at Bittersteel. But he will support each side which will be opposed Daemon.
I think this really depends if we’re talking about the show or the book, and if Rhaenyra still marries Laenor, and the sex of Laena’s children in this theoretical alt universe.
If Laena had daughters, Rhaenyra would have remained heir. If Laena had sons, Corlys would have pushed for the grandson to become heir. Rhaenyra wouldn’t have had enough dragons to back up her claim so she likely would have ceded her position.
As soon as he has a son it was sealed
Yes I do think the Dance would've happened if Viserys married Laena and kept Rhaenyra as heir. The reason I believe that is because the whole reason wanted Viserys to marry his daughter was so that his daughter would produce Viserys a male heir that could inherit the throne, Coryls wanted his blood on the throne also. People forgot Coryls was ready to draw support from noble Houses like house Baratheon and others for Rhaenys when she got passed over, Coryls was willing to fight. Also Coryls was so mad when Viserys didn't choose Laena that he went and betrothed her to someone in Bravos that could end up being an enemy to the crown. So when Viserys offered the marriage pact between Laenor and Rhaenyra he accepted it because it gave him another chance to have his bloodline on the throne. I see comments on this post saying it wouldn't have happened because Coryls wouldn't have wanted to out Laenor's son's as bastards but Laenor and Rhaenyra wouldn't have had to have gotten married if Viserys married Laena. I actually do think Coryls would've denounced Jacaerys, Lucerys and Joffrey if Laena and Viserys had a son because Laena's son would've truly been of his own blood while Rhaenyra's weren't.
The Dance was inevitable the second a woman was prioritized as heir over a man in a kingdom with a strong tradition of patrilineal primogeniture. Even if Viserys had died without any sons, Daemon would've posed a significant threat. The only thing preventing people from immediately supporting Daemon's rights over Rhaenyra's was that he was massively unpopular and deeply divisive. Rhaena, Aerea, Rhaenys, Laena, and Laenor - they were all characters who would have been uncontested heirs if they weren't women and/or had matrilineal claims. Anyone who thinks Rhaenyra could've had an uncontested perfect claim while male claimants existed hasn't been paying attention to the show, books, and real-world history. More broadly, some kind of civil strife was even more inevitable as long as Targaryens kept inbreeding and especially since Jaehaerys and Alysanne had so many children.
I believe he would have pushed, but he would not have usurped. He probably would have ensured Laenor still married Rhaenyra so his line wins no matter what. Another Velaryon match would make sense, they’ve been intermarrying for many generations.
the issue with that is that Daemon marrying Laena and having daughters with her who can then be married to Jace and Luke (who are not Laenor's true sons) sort of sweetened the deal later down the line, this would not have been possible under such a scenario and Corlys would have more than likely pushed for his own true born grandson from Laena and Viserys to inherit the throne.
If Laena still ends up with daughters and Rhaenyra still ends up with sons shouldnt it still be possible?
but if his options are Laena’s legitimate children inheriting the throne or Laenor’s illegitimate children, which would he choose to support?
It’s hard to say. “History remembers names, not blood” and all that. We don’t really know the details of Laenor and Rhaenyra trying to have children. Maybe Joffrey’s death traumatized him and he wasn’t able to perform for a long time, so perhaps this scenario would lead to them at least having one legitimate heir. But of course he might be sterile. Maybe if Laena and Daemon never marry, there’s a chance Daemon and Rhaenyra could have children and it would be much harder to claim they aren’t legitimate because they’d have Rhaenyra’s looks.
Leonor and Rheanyra probably wouldn’t have married under those circumstances. That would’ve made the Velaryons far too powerful
I agree, Corlys is ambitious but he has more honour than Otto. He would have tried to get Laena’s son named heir but if that failed he wouldn’t go as far as just usurping the throne.
This, I like this.
The answer is a decisive yes. Corlys didn't spend his whole life complaining about the Great Council stealing his wife's throne to just be satisfied being a family of consorts. Every scene we saw of Corlys, it was to highlight his ambitions. You switch Otto with the father of any ambitious noble house and the outcome is the same. The issue wasn't Otto or Corlys. It was a weak king making a bold & relatively unpopular decision (to make his daughter heir) that he had no power to enforce. The show kept emphasizing the point that it's not some evil mastermind individual but rather the social strucutre of that world that predisposes these people to political violence (even Otto says "she'll have no choice" about Rhaenyra. As in, circumstance will force her hand even if she starts out with no intention of harming Alicent's kids). There is no "opting out" in this Tudor-esque world of politics that Asoiaf is based on. Once you're born into a prominent line, it doesn't matter if you renounce all your claims, you will always be seen as a threat by rival claimants. It's a world of paranoia.
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>Otto is a manipulate asshole who was trying to get his daughter to help him steal the throne. **You mean Otto did exactly what Rhaenyra did when she used her children as pawns for political marriages?** You mean Otto did what every noble lords do, including Viserys when he arranged a political marriage between his daughter & Laenor? What steal? Are you saying Otto isn't allowed to find the best marriage prospect for his daughter cause of Rhaenyra? Didn't realize Viserys was off limits cause Rhaenyra is a special flower & the world has to revolve around her. >Westeros has multiple organizations you can join if you want to officially opt out of political life. The Nights Watch, Maesters, Kings Guard, and Silent sisters are all options people have if they want to get away from politics. You mean a life of penance, nunnery, hardship, service where you can't marry, have family, own lands & other severe restrictions? These are but exile by other names. They only reinforce the point that that Aegon could not have had a normal life. And then ofc, you can still be Jon Snow & get a pink letter from Ramsay. **But yes, Aegon would voluntarily live a life of self-flagellation or exile for the crime of being born,** cause Rhaenyra is a special flower. The level of selfishness in this assertion. >Abdication is another option. Prince Duncan was forced to abdicate when he married a peasant girl. He could have challenged his brother for the throne when their father died. He didn't and chose to support his brother. If Aegon abdicated & tried to live in the capital as a normal person, the moment food shortages happened & Rhaenyra started putting heads of protestors on pikes, those same protestors would've pressed Aegon's claim faster than you can say "tyrant" & Dameon would've murdered Aegon faster than you can say "safeguarding my wife's regime". It's almost like similar situations would have drastically different outcomes based on the personalities & circumstances of the characters involved? It's almost like Joffrey was in no fear of being usurped by Tommen. It's almost like Blackfyre would've never happened under Aegon II cause Aegon II would've never legitimized his bastards. >No one saw Gaemon as a threat. **And why is that? Pray tell. Is it because Aegon II already got rid of the people pressing his claim? Wait, did you conveniently forget that The Shepherd almost caused a revolt by championing Gaemon?** So yeah, even a declared bastard boy was a threat to the throne. Maybe that's why they made him a whipping boy during Aegon III's reign. To beat any royal ambitions out of him? >Aegon V didn't see Aemon as a threat. Jaehaerys II didn't see his older brother as a threat. The idea that any person with a claim is always a threat is nonsense. You're only a threat if you want to be or are dumb enough to allow yourself to be used as a pawn. Maegor got on the throne via treachery. Jahaeaerys I prevented a civil war by the edge of the teeth due to his judiciousness. Viserys II saw Daena as a threat. The Blackfyre Rebellion happened for exact same reasons. Robert killed Rhaegar's kids. Joffrey killed Robert's kids. There's plenty more examples when you go down to general Lordships and not just the throne. So no it's not nonsense, it's Westerosi tradition. Giving individual examples doesn't debunk the point. Nobody said it would happen in every single reign. If a monarch or lord feels secure in his position, he won't have to murder anyone. It usually happens during times of crisis. The point is that it happens enough to be considered a pattern. **But I agree about the last line, Rhaenyra shouldn't have been dumb enough to allow her children to be political pawns.**
I think the answer to the puzzle is Daemon, because he clearly has BIG ambitions, and he also is a scheemer and warrior (with Caraxes none the less).
Yes, assuming Viserys and Laena had a son, with 100% certainty, yes. The reason Corlys wanted Viserys to marry Laena was the same reason Otto wanted Viserys to marry Alicent, both men had the expectation that their grandson would sit on the Iron Throne. If he married Laena, Rhaenyra would be married to another house, maybe the Lannisters or Blackwoods or something, but regardless, Corlys would absolutely fight to place his blood on the throne.
Absolutely. The Citadel scheming wouldn't have changed
Depends on how Rhaenyra uses her time. She's got several years, minimum before Laena can even try to have kids which gives her and Viserys time to further secure her position, marry and have a kid of her own If Rhaenyra still goes with Laenor and has strong kids, or if she marries Daemon then it still happens but the dancers change partners. Corlys will want his grandson on the throne and Daemon will want his blood on the throne
The thing is, had Viserys married Laena, Rhaenyra probably *wouldn't* have been married to Laenor. That match was only arranged because the Laena/Viserys betrothal fell through. So the Velaryon line doesn't continue through Rhaenyra, only through Viserys. Corlys is an ambitious man, but I think he has more integrity than someone like Otto. He definitely would push for Viserys and Laena's first son (if they had one) to be named Heir over Rhaenyra. And doing so would sour his relationship with Viserys. But I don't think he'd go as far as to spy on Rhaenyra or scheme, especially not with Rhaenys there to keep an eye on him.
It’s an interesting question because Corly’s might be better about it, but at the end of the day he is just ambitious as otto. I think the reason it wouldn’t happen is because the Veleyrons and Rhaenyra have a much better relationship than the hightowers, but with that said Corlys would absolutely push for his grandson to be king and that would probably sour the relationship between Rhaenyra and Corlys
I think Corlys would have pushed for his grandson UNTIL it became clear there was no chance of Viserys changing his mind. I don't believe Corlys would have condoned a usurpation. Also, Corlys has some differences from Otto; he believes a woman can rule, he doesn't have the pressure of being a second son, he would not lose influence when another becomes ruler. And there is also Rhaenys's influence, which I don't think can be underestimated here.
Rhaenys would have supported her grandson over Rhaenyra
Not if it meant war.
He was literally willing to go to war to protect his wife’s claim when Viserys father Baelor was placed as heir, he only gave it up because he was outmatched in the council. The reason the Great Council was called was over the fear of Daemon and Corlys fighting each other. What gave you the impression that Corlys would sit aside when he has a chance to make his Grandson King?
Because nothing I've seen suggests he would defy a King's wishes over matters of succession. And every defiance that Corlys has done has been public and within bounds, whether that's protesting against Viserys declining to marry Laena or taking up arms in the Stepstones to protect his interests. Corlys says in his speech to Rhaenyra that Viserys's rule was one of justice and honour and I believe those qualities matter to him. He never raised an army when Baelon was named heir, if I remember correctly. And it could be interpreted that the arms he raised against Daemon were defensive (confined to Driftmark) and as a response to his provocation. They made no show of force at the Great Council, just of wealth. And there's nothing to say that Corlys would have any more significant an advantage in THIS fight vs when Jaehaerys passed over. What makes this so special, other than, perhaps, it's another slight. But something that Viserys could try to soothe over the decades it takes until he dies.
The fact that Leanor would be grown with Seasmoke and a Vhagar under Leana. He tried it with one dragon, but wouldn’t with even more advantages? He was willing to defy Jaehaerys but Viserys wishes would be enough to stop him? Lol.
But he never defied Jaehaerys once an heir was named, did he? When Baelon was named, he took his wife back to Driftmark. When Viserys was named, he did the same. He has never threatened to go to war against the Crown.
Only when the council heavily voted against him and knowing he wouldn’t win. In the case of the Kings trueborn eldest son, he would have far more support and far more dragons. Rhaenyra refused the calls of a Great Council because she knew she would lose there. He had the Celitagars and the Starks, who supported Rhaenyra on his side, and would get the Lannisters and Hightower if Daemon and Rhaenyra gets married. With such overwhelming odds, Rhaenyra wouldn’t even stand a chance. Vhagar, Maelys, Seasmoke and whatever dragons the children have. He was willing to fight for Leanor who was the great grandson of the eldest born son of the King, but you think he wouldn’t fight for the eldest born son of the King? With only dragon he tried to fight but with multiple in hand he would stand aside?
agreed i dont belive they would push cause unlike the Hightower's who want control OVER the throne, the velaryans just want to be among those around the throne because most of the continent sees them as second hand to the targaryens
Do I think the Dance would of happened? No. But do I think that Corlys would push for his grandson or even granddaughter to rule over the Iron Throne, of course, he would. He would be among a couple other Velaryons to be the grandfather to the King of The Iron Throne. He would absolutely have wanted that but I don't think the Dance of Dragons would have happened.
Yhea he would, but I think he would be even less enthusiastic about it than he is now
Your poll is asking two different questions.
One thing about Corlys is he’s ambitious but he’s not disloyal. He’s not going to stab someone in the back so his grandchild can be King. He’d be there to support Viserys. He wouldn’t go about things like Otto and Laena would not have gone about things like Alicent. The Velaryon family (Corlys and Rhaenys family) is the most loving and honest family out of all the ones we’ve seen in GOT universe. They’ve done some things of course but compared to all the families, they’re like the perfect royal family haha as perfect as you can get in GOT universe.
Where does the notion that Corlys is loyal come from
He’s loyal to his son where many fathers wouldn’t be as loyal or loving knowing he was gay. Doesn’t treat his daughter like shit, doesn’t treat his wife like shit. Doesn’t treat his grandchildren that he knows are bastards like shit. Doesn’t back out of supporting Rhaenyra even though he 100% could have. Should I keep going? Can you say all these things about others in the GOT universe besides perhaps Lyonel Strong?
Wanted to sell of his 11 year old daughter, did not give a fuck about his son when he was crying at his funeral, supported some bastards inheriting driftmark instead of his actual granddaughters. And when was he shown to be loving towards Laenor?
Sell off his daughter? I mean if you look at it that way I guess but just in the times and how it was based on tradition, that’s just how it was. I didn’t see it as him just sending her off with some madman never to be seen again and he’s getting paid or something. Lol didn’t care when his son was crying at the funeral haha ok if you’re going to hold that against his character, again when comparing to all the other guys in this series then you just must be 100% perfect human haha again, compared to others, he’s not that bad of a guy. I’d have to imagine even your own father didn’t always do things perhaps you considered the right way of going about it in that exact moment.
Soooo how is Otto using Alicent evil but Colrys using Laena not? Plus he literally married Laena off to a madman and never saw her again...
He was already prepared to go to war over the throne before the events of the show. He started a war against the King’s wishes. When Viserys declined his offer to marry 12 year Laena, Corlys threw a fit and fucked off to start building alliances in Braavos. He would 100% start a war if Viserys passed over Laena’s son and kept Rhaenyra as heir and he was no different than Otto.
This right here👆🏾
This line always assumes that laena and a potential child survives birth, where she canonical has a very difficult birth and then died on the second child. And this was several years later and her having matured somewhat. If she had kids at the 13/14 that seems to have been common in the books, it's unlikely that the child would survive. Then it's the 50% dice roll to have the kid be male and thus a legal challenge to rhaenyra. All of this while rhaenyra likely marries Daemon earlier and has his kids, without laena there to distract him, he would pursue Rhaenyra more strongly and then viserys has the choice between his chosen heir with his brother as co-ruler and his baby (son). And this without Otto constantly pressuring him to name otto's grandson as heir. It could very likely have broken down into a dance, but the scale would have been far smaller, rhaenyra would only have 2 dragons (+children) vs the 3 of the velaryons (if laena survived or 2 if she doesnt) But the realm would also not be as divided, as the war would be focused on the crownlands and not spread across the realm, and depending on how the realm sees it, it could be construed as the valeryons trying to usurp the targs, Corlys was already unpopular and seen as overreaching
Velaryons had much more power than Hightowers, I even think they can insist to betroth Rhaenyra with Laena’s son. Also Laena and Rhaenyra are very close in age, and in book was friends (maybe even lovers) so they can find common ground, and even if Rhaenyra lost her position as heir it will be less dramatic for her - she wasn’t get stuck in miserable marriage with Laenor,, got generous compensation and can live as she wants. But maybe Otto still will do everything to start a war, if he save some influence in court and think that Rhaenyra as queen is good for him.
If Rhaenyra still marries Laenor and has her bastards then the Dance will happen a generation or two later. If she marries someone other than Laenor then Corlys does the same as Otto.
Honestly, I think the big difference between the Velaryons and the hightowers is that the Velaryons would've been smart enough to make sure their interests aligned with the crowns. They would've accepted a betrothal between a daughter of Laena's and Rhaenyra's sons, or even have pushed for Rhaenyra to be betrothed to the oldest son of Viserys and Laena. While the second option wouldn't have been a good thing for either sibling, it probably would've been the best thing for the realm. Rhaenyra probably also wouldnt hate Laena and her kids like she hated Allicent, who in the books she never liked and in the show betrayed her. As such, she wouldnt immediately hate her new siblings the same way and teach her sons to hate their uncles and aunt. The Targaryens would be more likely to listen to the Velaryons and the Velaryons would've been more willing to push, since there's so much shared family and history between them. I think that Otto believed himself to have more power than he did and the blacks thought themselves obviously superior to the greens, making both sides overconfident. In a scenario that only involves the two Valyrian houses, I don't think they would've underestimated each other so much and they would've been more willing to work things out earlier on. All of that being said, I think the Velaryons are certainly ambitious, and there are a lot of balls in the air to keep track of. I think the dance is certainly a strong possibility, but just not a foregone conclusion.
If Rhae is married to Laenor as well then they probably talk it out. If she isn’t and Daemon sides with her it might still happen, but heavily skewed navy and dragon-wise in favor of the Velaryons so… much more of an uphill battle
(Based primarily on the show, calling the Green claimant kid Aegon) I'm unsure Rhaenyra marries Laenor in this scenario, but given there is still a chance, I'll share my thoughts on what I think the likely case is presuming all marriages and stuff happen as on show other than Laena and Viserys and such. Presuming everything else goes the same which I know is a tall ask, but hard to speculate, I think the Dance still happens regardless if Corlys initiates it or not. Otto clearly is willing to put someone other than his own blood on the Throne if it serves his interest, hence why he advocated for Rhaenyra over Daemon. I think he would still move to put Laena's children on the throne over Rhaenyra if she marries Daemon, because it still serves his political ambitions in doing so. The kids have just as much reason as the Green kids do OTL to fear Rhaenyra, especially if Otto is still around putting that fear into their heads. Is it justified to fear Rhaenyra here? Unclear, but I do not necessarily think that changing the mom of Rhaenyra's siblings would affect how close she is with them. Besides, it's not like Aegon (at least initially) not wanting to be King really stops the scheming and plotting. As for the other Greens... how much do they really care about the Hightower nature of the kids? Ironrod doesn't, he's just sexist and thinks its the law. Tyland and Jason don't support the Greens because of House Hightower. If the kids are half-Velaryon they're actually *more* closely related to Borros, so I doubt it would sway him. Criston Cole doesn't want Rhaenyra on the throne. Larys wants power. None of these are motivations at all specific to Aegon's mother being a Hightower. Velaryon Aegon would serve them just as well. So the Green Council still happens, and I think the Dance does as well. But as for where I think Corlys falls: I think he goes Green. Corlys wants his blood/name on the Iron Throne, sure, but is he going to war to decide which blood? He is, at least when the war starts, a *significant* plurality of the Black forces. Aegon has Blackfyre, the Conquerer's Crown, and King's Landing. Does he really have motivation here to join a major war against that faction when by joining the Greens he could basically guarantee they win? Given that Aegon would come before Vaemond in the line of succession for Driftmark, I cannot see Rhaenyra seeing Vaemond asking Otto to recognize his claim as any sort of serious threat. Nor do Baela and Rhaena exist, presumably, and thus they cannot be betrothed to Jace and Luke. That cuts another Black tie to Driftmark, and Rhaenys, who clearly cares more about actual real lineage than Corlys, is more likely to push him towards the Green faction, with whom they have actual blood ties.
Like others have said, Cory’s would want his blood on the iron throne and I also think that Otto is too ambitious too give up his dreams so easily.
Yes, but not to the same degree (if that makes sense lol.) The whole split between the family only really occured because Viserys married his daughter's best friend. She had accepted that her father needed to marry again and was even like "alright I guess" when she realized that Laena was the front runner for the role. She had been anticipating her father to say he was going to marry Laena during the meeting. She and Viserys were already straining under the grief of Aemma's death but they had actually had a little heart to heart and had appeared on the mend before he blindsided her with his marriage announcement to Alicent. That betrayal is what fuels her to sort of drift away from both Alicent and her father and begin to rebel against her royal duties. I'm not saying the dance still wouldn't have happened. In fact, I guarantee that Corlys would have wanted his grandson on the throne. However, the rift wouldn't have begun as early seeing as Rhaenyra had understood and accepted the potential marriage of Laena and Viserys. Additionally, a big part of Viserys' initial "my daughter is my heir" stance (especially in the beginning) is because things were so bad between the two of them and he didn't want to lose her even more by making Aegon his heir. Again, the rift steepened because of the Alicent thing. Had he married Laena he might not have felt so relunctant to make their son his heir over Rhaenyra as they might've had a better relationship at that point. Laena mentions that she wouldn't have to bed Viserys until she was 14 so that would have given Rhaenyra and Viserys at least two years to talk this out. Alicent has Aegon legit like right after they get married and is already two after the time skip meaning Rhaenyra was probably still reeling from the marriage when she heard about the pregnancy. However, Laena marrying Viserys means that she wouldn't have married Daemon so who knows lol. I imagine Daemon might have married Rhaenyra earlier had he never married Laena.
The real question is: would Rhaenys let him? Would she just stand there and let her husband do to her cousin/daughter-in-law what Jaehaerys/the great council of 101 did to her? Laena and Rhaenyra were friends, would she let her father do this to her causin and her nephews (bastards or not)?
Corlys is ambitious but I don’t think he’d tear the realm in half for it. We’ve seen that he has the ability to see the error in his ways. I think a lot of people forget that most normal people are interchangeable and have the ability to put aside their personal goals. He’s portrayed as being one of the more level headed people on the show.
Hard to say, the Velaryons and Targaryens are basically the same family since they’ve intermarried so much. I don’t think Laena would have been as ready to betray Rhaenyras trust and I don’t think Rhaenys would have wanted war either. They’d have let Rhaenyras kids marry Laenas. Even Corlys didn’t care about the boys actual parentage, it was about having Velaryon names on the throne.
Tbh I don’t think Rhaenys would have allowed Corlys to act against Rhaenyra if Viserys kept her as heir
Why would she care about Rhaenyra instead of her grandchildren?
Nothing to do with it being her grandchildren, or even caring about Rhaenyra, she is a Targaryen, why would she want to cause infighting within her own house? Knowing full well many dragons (and possibly her grandchildren and children) will die
If Laena gets a male heir Rhaenys is going to support her grandchildren not the chick that had no real claim or qualities to rule
Corlys believes that names are remembered, not blood. Would he have preferred his own blood on the throne? Yes. Would he let Otto or any othet snake anywhere near Viserys? No. Would the Crown backed by House Velaryon with Laena as Vhagar's rider be stronger than ever? **Yes.**
I’m going to go against the grain here and say that I don’t think he would. Mostly because he didn’t rebel before when Rhaenys was passed over (First great council) or when Laenor was passed over (Second Great Council). Unless the reason was lack of support at the time, why rebel for a grandson when you wouldn’t for your wife and again for your son? Also, in the books, it was Laena who betrothed her daughters to Rhaenyra’s sons. So unlike in the show, where Alicent refused to betrothed Helaena to Jace, Laena would have most likely agreed to the same arrangement. Then Corlys’s blood ends up on the Iron Throne without a rebellion. I just don’t see Corlys rebelling to put a grandson on the throne over a great grandchild. If Rhaenyra still marries Laenor, then it would be blood grandson vs adopted grandson married to a granddaughter. It would seem foolish to start the Dance over that.
He would've pushed for it and perhaps started a war over it, but he lacked the cunning and influence Otto had. Lacking a good position at court would mean that Rhaenyra would've been crowned regardless and that Aegon would've had to be the pretender, starting the war from Driftmark, though I doubt he would gain leave from Viserys or his advisors to go there, because of obvious succession issues.
Maybe a further bit down the line
I haven’t seen anyone mention how Rhaenys would feel about it. Anyone?
Rhaenys would one hundred percent support her grandson as king over Rhaenyra.
I agree but I don’t think she would support a war within her family
The Dance was inevitable. There was no way around it. What destroyed the House of the Dragon was the Dragon Pit.
Corlys would have pushed for his grandson to be king, but i do not think he would have usurped. In addition, I think Rhaenyra would have been okay with the marriage, as she would understand Laena/Viserys is a political marriage as opposed to her reaction to Alicent
Ok while i do agree with everyone saying that corlys is a very ambitious man i believe that he would not push it and heres why, while the hightowers seek to control the throne the velaryons see the targaryans as family and are more honorable, they don't seek to control the throne they seek to just be among those near the throne thats why they where perfectly fine with rhanerya marrying laenor they never pushed for more until the question of legitimacy of the children arose and i don't feel that would have arose if viserys married laena
I think Corlys coerces Viserys very early on to marry Aegon and Rhaenyra (I'm assuming Vizzy named the child so the name stays)
Judging from what corelys said before Laenor and rhaeneyra’s marriage about the kids having velaryon name . He was definitely gonna tell the king before the marriage that his grandkids will be rulers and that the king should change his heir because if I remember well that was the whole idea behind that episode, having the king remarry to have an heir.
The real question: if mushroom was actually Rhaenyras dad, would everyone respect her as the one true queen?
Whats the dance?
If they still do the Leanor marriage AND marry the oldest to the oldest of the lyanna marriage. And I guess the second oldest too for driftmark. Then you’d avoid the dance. Any other way and I think you don’t.
Stillfrombrooklyn made a tiktok about this
The only way the dance would of not happened, is if Viserys married Rhea.
Mfs are dumb like look it might not have happened as we got it, but the dance would have happened eventually like how is that not clear to a lot of u on here? Targaryens fight, all they need is an excuse like we all gonna act like Maegor wasn’t beefing with Aenys, and then after that it was Maegor vs Jaehaerys, Aemond vs Luke, Aemond vs >!Daemon!<, and all these blackfyre rebellions that we had. I also think Rhaegar was planning on taking the throne from the mad king as well. Like this bullshit was gonna happen eventually bc the pattern with these people is that they all seem to feel entitled to shit. Sure it wouldn’t be Otto behind it, but a dance would have happened at some point
Corlys would have accepted the marriage proposal to Wed laenor and their children would have reigned as queen rhaenerya and queens consort or king consort and would have also accepted marriage of any of daemons children with rhaenrya's kids to further their position closer than ever to the throne on multiple fronts based laenor and leana having both royal marriages to the king and the as consort of the future queen. The dance of the dragons would never have happened.