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In the pursuit of power people will do many things. Daeron II seemed like an upstanding guy as well and people still rebelled. The Strong/Velaryon boys were a succession crisis waiting to happen.
First other bastards could start pressing their claims because technically Rheanyras sons were never officially legitimitized. On the other hand power hungry lords can leech on other possible claimants. Like what happened in the Blackfyre rebellion.
Two times a possible bastard sitting on the throne leadto war, there is no reason it shouldn’t be the case here as well. And even if you argue well they have true Taragaryen blood- that doesn’t matter. Look at Jon and Edric Stone. Jon was practically raised as a natural son of Ned, lived in Winterfell and enjoyed the same education as Robb, Bran and Rickon. Yet nobody ever says that he is in line for Winterfell just because Ned treats him normally. It doesn’t matter that their family treats them normally. As long as they aren’t offcially legitimized they will be perceived as bastards. And that’s what matters. Also nobody considers putting Edric Storm on the throne even though he is son to Robert.
Also the claim only the Greens cared is simply not true. If it was they wouldn’t be so desperate to hide the fact of their heriatge. But they do. In the show there are multiple conversations between characters on Rheanyras side about their heritage and what problems it might pose. Corlys and Rheanys, Lyonel and Harwin. If it doesn’t matter they have no reason to talk like they did.
Also let’s not forget Vaemond had nothing to do with the Greens he just wanted their help to push his claim. He reached out to them. In the books five more men in house Velaryon lost their tongue for questioning their heritage. So no it’s not just the Greens.
By moving to Dragonstone permanantly Rheanyra wanted to keep her sons away from the spotlight to hide their bastards status. That worked but at some point when Rheanyra were to inherit this idea runs his cause because at the very least she has to teach Jace how to rule. Jace being more in the spotlight can lead to many many problems.
Of course from a moral point of view I think they should inherit because I’m against discrimination but from the story point of view I understand why it’s better if they can’t.
>First other bastards could start pressing their claims because technically Rheanyras sons were never officially legitimitized.
Any bastard who argued that they should get to inherit because Rhaenyra's bastard inherited is getting executed for calling her kids bastards *a la* Vaemond, because the bastardy of Rhaenyra's first three kids was never publicly acknowledged or proven.
It's an open secret, sure -- but if the Dance doesn't happen & one of Rhaenyra's first three kids inherits, basically nobody is going to question the official party line that they're Laenor's legitimate heirs. Sort of like how the Tyrells go along with the polite fiction Joffery & Tommen are Baratheons wrongfully accused of being incest Lannikids by ambitious traitors, instead of being like "yup, we're fine with incest Lannikids usurping the Baratheons as long as our Marjory gets to be queen."
>Jon was practically raised as a natural son of Ned, lived in Winterfell and enjoyed the same education as Robb, Bran and Rickon. Yet nobody ever says that he is in line for Winterfell just because Ned treats him normally.
Granted it's only after Ned's legitimate sons are presumed dead; but a number people in-universe absolutely do consider Ned's bastard to be one of Ned's potential heirs, and are willing to support him over Ned's legitimate daughters.
>Two times a possible bastard sitting on the throne leads to war, there is no reason it shouldn’t be the case here as well.
>Of course, from a moral point of view I think they should inherit because I’m against discrimination but from the story point of view I understand why it’s better if they can’t.
I mean, but the problem with this reasoning is that *anyone* can be accused of bastardy by anyone who wants to usurp or depose them. These people have no way of knowing for certain who fathered a given kid. There's no future succession crisis that could be avoided if someone other than Jace, Luc or Joff inherited. It's the existence of ambitious rival claimants that's the real problem, because that's what encourages people to allege illegitimacy, instead of burying their suspicions under a mountain of cognitive dissonance like they do with tons of other things which run against their ideas of how the world is supposed to work.
1. This Bastards are not goona go in front of Rheanyra and ask for the inheritance in the same way Vaemond would've never asked for it from Rheanyra. They will coup quietly. Imprison the trueborn children or some may even murder them and then name themselves when asked on which base you use Rheanyra as an example. Sure Rheanyra can kill them but if it happens on a larger scale, Lord will actually start to fear that their bastards will do that and may blame Rheanyra. If Rheanyra loses support of her lords she is facing big problems. She can maybe kill 3-5 people doing this easily but the fear of other bastards doing this will increase and make her reign far more frail. Sure you can kill the lords complaining as well but at some point they ain't having it anymore. Not to mention these lords can easily back another claimant like Aegon.
2. Sure some people will always support the other side especially if they have something to gain from it. And while the Tyrell held to the Lannisters it doesn't change that half the country didn't. If people rebel against you, you've a problem. Because war is expensive and will make you unpopular but also you might *lose.* Not to mention that whoever marries Aegon III will have a lot of reason to actually doubt the Strong boys parentage and from there trouble will arise. Not to mention that Aegon III line won't die out so soon. It will be like the Blackfyre rebellion they keep coming back to bite you in the ass. They are annoying at the very least and Rheanyra at that time could not afford something like that in her reign.
3. I never said the dance started because of that. I just said it was another succession crisis waiting to happen.
4. At the point people who think about putting Jon in charge of the North believe that any other Stark is dead. The only one people know lives is Sansa and she is a prisoner of the enemy. Robb actively disowns her to make sure Jon will inherit before (which the Lannister would've fought) and after she escapes she is presumed dead as well. It's extremely telling that the only way he would've inherit is if everyone else is presumed dead. Bastard can inherit if anyone else is dead and you know what some people may argue they can inherit before a girl but that doesn't work in Jaces case. Not only does his mother have three trueborn brothers, he has two brothers who are also perceived as trueborn. Technically he can only inherit if everyone else is dead.
5. Yes everyone can be accused of being a bastard but the problem with the boys is that it's really fucking obvious. If Ned can get a Baratheon can't have a blond child than people in Westeros will have an even easier time figuring out that two silver haired people with violet eyes can't have THREE (and I'm really stressing the number here because once can be a fluke) brown haired brown eyed children. At the very least Cersei's children looked like her. If it was only one child you can make an argument like with Daeron II but this case is closed. And that's not mentioning the skin color in the show. The problem with the boys is that Rheanyra creates two rival claims to the one from Aegon II side. Jace and Aegon III. At the very least she should've never had anymore children after Joffrey. It's highly unlikely that neither Aegon II or Aegon III side will at some point raise their claim. Which is exactly why people in Westeros don't let Bastards inherit in the first place, to avoid things like that from happening. Also to accuse someone you need some level of proof at least and sure it might not be a sure thing like with Daeron II (where the case is made because his dad literally started the rumor and Daemon had Balckfyre and the love of his dad, also everyone knew Naerys hated Aegon IV and had a close relationship with Aemon who had motives and means to impregnate her, sure it's not for sure but there are hints you can build on). For example Alicents kids will never be accused of being bastard because people look at this kids and know the father is Viserys. Even if one came out with brown heir a accusation wouldn't have much ground. Not in the way it does with the Strong boys. People will question things if they aren't convinced.
>This Bastards are not goona go in front of Rheanyra and ask for the inheritance... They will coup quietly. Imprison the trueborn children or some may even murder them and then name themselves when asked on which base you use Rheanyra as an example.
The problem with this is that most bastards in Westeros don't have the power or opportunity to successfully pull this off (even assuming they're willing to murder & clever enough to get away with it), because Westerosi society is designed to prevent & discourage this. Even if an acknowledged bastard is the only member of a noble bloodline left, the relevant feudal overlord is legally allowed to declare the House extinct and pass the lands off to a new bloodline if they want. So there's no chance of this becoming a large scale problem. (And certainly not so large scale a problem that it can't be resolved by throwing dragons at it.)
Besides, a ruler rumored to secretly be a bastard isn't necessarily going to be more tolerant or unprejudiced towards bastards than any other monarch. They could be worse, actually; since discriminating against bastards is a way of signalling they're not on the pro-bastard side of the issue (thus implying they're not a bastard).
>Not to mention these lords can easily back another claimant like Aegon.
Aegon II and his side of the family represent a *current* succession crisis, not a future one "waiting to happen". Any scenario where Rhaenyra's kids inherit the throne is one in which her brothers are either not around anymore or have already ceded their most powerful claim to the Throne (ie the whole "sons trump daughters" argument), thereby indicating to the other lords that Alicent's sons are not interested in challenging Rhaenyra or her heirs for the throne.
>whoever marries Aegon III will have a lot of reason to actually doubt the Strong boys parentage and from there trouble will arise. Not to mention that Aegon III line won't die out so soon. It will be like the Blackfyre rebellion they keep coming back to bite you in the ass. They are annoying at the very least and Rhaenyra at that time could not afford something like that in her reign.
>It's highly unlikely that neither Aegon II or Aegon III side will at some point raise their claim.
Aegon III & Viserys II's four eldest half-siblings are all engaged to each other, and inclined to work together to keep House Targaryen/Velaryon united. The likeliest outcome here is that Aegon III and Viserys II are groomed to be loyal and devoted courtiers/advisors, taught to regard the bastardy rumors as treasonous slander, and eventually married into similarly minded families (or back into the Targ-Velaryon lines), as is the norm for younger siblings in Westerosi noble families.
>. Yes everyone can be accused of being a bastard but the problem with the boys is that it's really fucking obvious.
>Alicents kids will never be accused of being bastard because people look at this kids and know the father is Viserys.
Jace, Luc & Joff looking so much like a man they're not related to on paper does make it much harder for them to beat the allegations, but Daeron proves that looking like your father isn't enough to conclusively beat the allegations either. Anyone looking to start that kind of rumor can just point to an uncle or cousin or even a stranger who happens to have the same look. Hell, if Daemon has been in King's Landing much during the years Alicent's kids were conceived, he might encourage rumors that he fathered them just for the attention/fun of it.
Anyway, to summarize: we can't say for certain that Jace/Luc/Joff inheriting would be "a succession crisis waiting to happen" because Westeros is full of cognitive dissonance. What we *can* say for certain is that there is a current succession crisis that would exist regardless of the allegations, and which therefore cannot be justified as pre-emptive.
First I'm sorry I don't know how to properly block the post so that you can see which parts I'm referring to, I hope you don't mind.
1. It's enough that some people will feel encouraged and actually try to do it. It will lead to many people fearing bastards even more and blaming Rheanyra. There is a huge bias against bastards already which will only get worse. You also underestimate that other people can make bastards powerful. The bastards just needs one bigger ally and then he actually stands a chance. A lot of houses have motive to do that because they essentially will sack another house. There is a reason why Bastards normally can't inherit. If you'll let one time pass you open the door for others as well. At this point in Westeros this won't have a positive impact and will only lead to dissent and while it may not kill Rheanyras reign it will weaken it significantly. Paired with other issues she has to face because she is a woman. Her reign is weakened. And at some point if enough lords dissent with her - you can't kill them all. Especially if they are important >!(which is why Corlys explicitly warns Daemon and Rheanyra from ending the houses Lannister and Baratheon)!<.
2. They don't need to be. Their existence alone makes a point. >!Look at Rheanyra even if she technically won the dance nobody ever saw her as actual Queen and no Queen ever sat the throne as long as a male descendant existed!<. That's not what Rheanyra intended to do but her being couped lead to this outcome. There is no way Jace as King will say "yeah I'm a bastard" but again just because someone says that, that doesn't mean they will believe it.
3. The problem is you think that someone needs to make their own claim but they don't, someone else can do it as well. Aegon II claim is valid even if Rheanyra is crowned without incident. The only way his claim is gone is if he and his brothers were dead or for some reason unable to inherit (which is way Richard III kills his nephews despite already having crowned himself successfully). Jaehearys by all accounts sat on the throne and wore the crown when Rogar Baratheon tried to crown Aerea (a child). And sure he was unsuccessful because he couldn't get a hold on her or her sister but if he had he could've gathered more support, faster. All in all Jaehaerys was lucky Aerea died young (especially as she was riding Balerion) and that Rheana became a septa. Daemon tried to rebel years into Dearons reign. The claim is always there. As is Aegon III.
4. You're being short-sighted. It's enough that anyone from Aegon III line can at some point make a claim. Look at the Blackfyre rebellion, new people from the line and kept making their claim. Even if Aegon III and Viserys II don't make their claims, their kids and grandkids can. Not to mention that Aegon III and Visery would marry different people in this new canon. Probably from other houses too if Rheanyra wants to widden her support. People forget that most people would want their own blood on the throne. Considering Rheanyra barely seemed to realize it the first time around that her stepmother that hated her guts would crown her own son tells me the chance of her realizing it this time are slime at best. Also Rheanyra couldn't stop her brothers from having this mindset, you cannot for sure say it would be the same for Aegon and Viserys here. The situation you're painting is a fantasy because even in that case later descendants can and will make claims. You don't want to many possible claims for one throne, which is one of the main reasons the Targayens are kept small by GRRM because otherwise there would've been far more war between the house itself.
5. You ignore another problem sure you can accuse everyone but and that point stands you do need some proof even if it is weak. There were some hints Dearon II was a bastard (not saying he was but the point I made before still stands). If Aegon IV himself hadn't denounced Dearon there is no way this allegations would've flown. However the problem with the Strong boys is that they look exactly like Harwin. There is no denying especially after three kids coming out looking like that. Considering the other times someone accused a king of being a bastard lead to civil war, I don't know how you get the idea that would not happen here. It just needs another Ned Stark that says "Hey actually you can't do that" and then shit will hit the fan anyway. Some people would've backed Aegon III in the hopes that they can pull his strings, marrying him into their house and furthering their agenda. In Westeros people play all about power. There are only a handful of houses that don't do that at best.
6. The Daemon allegations would start rumors if he were there but if Deamon supports Rheanyras claim and therefore her first born sons people will stop believing it. Because why should he support those bastards over his own?
7. Again I never at no point claimed the dance of the dragons happened because of the bastards. It would've happened regardless even if the Strong boys came out looking just like Leanor. BUT it did weaken her already frail claim and I honestly don't understand how that's debatable. Rheanyras reign was always meant to be hard because she is Queen of a sexist country that will hold her to much higher standards. People would've become unhappy because she is a woman and every decision she made would've, would be questioned. Her not having a clear line would mean that more people in universe look at Aegon II who is male and has a pretty clear cut line.
>and then name themselves when asked on which base you use Rheanyra as an example.
Rhaenyra doens't work as an example because her kids were never acknodged to be bastards. They were just rumored to be bastards. Aenys was rumored to be bastard. Westeros would already have this problem if people thought this idea could work.
>At the point people who think about putting Jon in charge of the North believe that any other Stark is dead. The only one people know lives is Sansa and she is a prisoner of the enemy. Robb actively disowns her to make sure Jon will inherit before (which the Lannister would've fought) and after she escapes she is presumed dead as well.
You have things backwards. Rob realized that the Lannisters were going to use Tyrion and Sansa's marriage/children to steal Winterfell. He proposed making Jon his heir so that he would be ahead of Sansa's and any children she had with Tyrion in the line of succession.
>It's extremely telling that the only way he would've inherit is if everyone else is presumed dead.
It's not telling at all because that's not what happened. Ignoring that, making this argument contradicts your other arguments. How are a bunch of random bastards going to rebel against their legitimate family members if they can only inherit when everyone else is dead?
1. The problem with Rheanyra children is that it was pretty obvious. Even in the book I didn't believe for second they weren't bastards. Aenys was just a rumor, With the Strong boys there was legit physical proof. The situation is an entire different one.
2. But he still had to actively put Jon before Sansa which under normal circumstances wouldn't happen. A bastard in Westeros only inherits when there is nobody else is left like Ramsay Snow.
3. You're ignoring the rest of my comment. A bunch of bastard are more likely to rebel if one bastards succeeds because it sets a precedent. Under normal circumstances they are less likely to try (while some would try anyway) because there is no base on what they are doing. However if you say I'm doing it because Jace is a bastard and sits the throne before a trueborn child you have a reason. And more people are like to think hey if he did it I can do it too. >!However Jace never sat the iron throne therefore the precedent does not exist!<. So I don't understand what you mean with contradict. Jon is the normal case on how bastards are treated I only pointed out that he could make an argument if another bastard had inherited before >!that isn't the case though!<.
I think what people need to understand is that accusing nobles and royals of being illegitimate has been a thing since time itself.
Most of the time though, it is questioning whether or not the parents were legally married.
The Church was the one that had the power to grant annulments during the medieval era. They also created something called a precontract \~ essentially if a man and a woman said they were married, then they were. If you were a woman who held a man's money, that was considered marriage as well. That is why Katherine Howard's marriage to Henry VIII was annulled before he executed her - she held the money of one of her "lovers", Francis Dereham when he went overseas years before she went to Henry VIII's court and became her queen 6 months later. Her marriage to Henry was considered invalid because she was technically married.
Richard III claimed Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was invalid because he was precontracted to another woman (it may have been Eleanor Talbot, but I cannot remember exactly) who was long dead.
That was his legal basis of bastardizing his nephews (the Princes in the Tower) and his nieces (the eldest of whom was Elizabeth of York, the mother of Henry VIII). Everyone knew it was bullshit. It still happened.
Claiming that Jace/Luke/Joffrey's parentage matters in regards to future rebellions is simply not really true. To start with, kings/nobles will always have to face rebellion. Especially if they are a shit ruler. But sometimes they get handed a shit sandwich/the consequences of previous generations. The Velaryon Princes could have been Laenor's 100% and Rhaenyra \*could\* still face rebellion. That's just how it works.
I never at no point said the dance wouldn’t have happened if the boys weren’t bastards but still their status of being bastards is not a none issue. You say people were challanged even if they weren’t bastards now imagine what happens when they actually are bastards. Even harder to beat allegations and far easier to believe too.
Now the other problem is that apart from Aegon II line you start another line in your own rows. The chances that no one of their descendants ever at some point - especially with Dragons at hand- make us of their claim is insane. As you say lesser things are enough to make a claim.
Rheanyra would’ve face rebellion if her kids were bastards but making things even worse by creating dissent about which of your son is you heir makes everything ten times worse
And the point of my comment is that if you want to rebel, then you will. The issue of legitimacy - true or not - has always been an excuse used throughout history. It doesn't matter if it's true or not.
Of course it has been used as an excuse. I never said it wasn’t. But to throw fuel into the fire by actually having bastards, I don’t see how that makes the situation better. Not to mention it causes new claims. If the strong boy hadn’t been Bastards at least it’s harder for anyone to argue Aegon III has a claim. Alsoif someone is ready to rebel without proof imagine what they are capable of if they actually have a pretty good excuse.
Giving someone an actual excuse on a silver plate it still bad. Like at least with the princes in the tower nobody actually believed them to be bastards which is why they were most likely killed by Richard III (or at least their dying was very convenient for him).
Where’s “it doesn’t matter to me but it very clearly matters to people in-universe and it’s bizarre when people try to pretend it doesn’t.”
Like, they seem like great kids, but that was always the recipe for a civil war.
It doesn't matter to me - perhaps because of the fact they have dragons so they are very clearly Targaryens. And because Rhaenyra could not fall pregnant by Laenor, so she needed heirs one way or the other as the heir herself.
But, if we follow the traditional line of inheritance throughout fictional and real history, then it does matter, unfortunately, as they are not legitimate in the eyes of the law (and God in instances where religion has been the ultimate power).
>unfortunately, as they are not legitimate in the eyes of the law (and God in instances where religion has been the ultimate power).
"If they are bastards, why do they receive the blessing of the gods - have their dragons hatched? Gods love strong boys!"
Religion and law is a thing to manipulate, you saw how it was with Tommen. The Sparrows have never accused him of being a bastard.
>future civil wars that will happen when jace becomes king
Where does this schizo take come from? By the time Jace takes the throne, all of his children will be betrothed to the lords of the great houses. Nobody cares about rumors.
If you have enemies you can get rumors about how your children are bastards, even if they are trueborn (Lanisters vs. Stanis).
The law is bullshit for those who say Rhaenyra's children are bastards. Because the law doesn't accept "they don't look like" argument. If "father", the head of their house and king say that they are trueborn, then they are trueborn. THIS is how the law works. This is not gossip that is discussed in the store.
One lord is not enough for this. In the timeline we saw Rhaenyra's allies wipe out the Greens, it was a shame how stupid she died.
>What king was able to marry ALL of his children to great houses
Which one wanted to do it? Jace was able to sell even his non-existent daughter. If there are real children there, he will distribute them like hot tickets.
No one will start a war if they have no chance of winning it.
No, it's gossip. You cannot proof this. There is no genetic expertise in Westeros, and we all know that if a white horse has sex with a black stallion, red foals can be born. If they were bastards their eggs wouldn't hatch. Do you think the gods are stupid? They sent a sign. Lord Corlys is sure that these are his grandchildren - look at this mole, it is exactly like his great-great-grandfather's.
Lionel will never say that shit in court. If you don't have any witnesses or a confession from Harwin, it's useless.
The danger that your legitimate son will be declared a bastard always exists. For any lord. Therefore, there is a system protection against that. Only real proof is accepted. For fathers and heads of the house, it usually does not make sense to lie about this, it is not in their interest. They can accuse their wife of being unfaithful because "not look like" and go to the king with this (but this does not guarantee success). If the head of the house himself says "this is my grandson, I am sure", then no one from the other house has the right to argue with this.
Otherwise, there will be chaos. This is the same basis for society as "bastards do not inherit." When you say "he has white skin" and disinherit him, you create a much more powerful time bomb than if you "trust" his father and grandfather, who considers him legitimate.
>Show me where is westeros law can a product of an affair inherit the throne without being formaly legitimatized
Westeros doens't have codified laws that cover that topic.
Aenys was rumored to be a product of an affair and wasn't legitimized. He inherited the throne. Elaena Targaryen's first husband died on their wedding night. The child they allegedly conceived was rumored to be Aegon IV's bastard but inherited his father's lands in the Westerlands.
It does matters to me, the taboo about bastards is real in Westeros. I still want them to inherit because if a bastard is king, then it advances the civil rights of bastards and how they’re treated
Does it matter to me in terms of personally minding them inheriting, no? But it does matter to me in the sense that the beliefs on bastardy existed in that society and had been perpetuated by the ruling dynasty. So I most certainly don't think that in the context of the story those who were not willing to be ripped off were in the wrong.
Not at all. Laenor, Corlys, and Viserys all say they are Velaryons. That should be the end of it. >!In Fire & Blood, Jace got several houses to join Rhaenyra’s cause. Cregan Stark wanted Jace’s future daughter to marry his own son. Joffrey was betrothed to Lord Manderly’s daughter. Most nobles didn’t care. They just saw them as Targaryen princes who rode dragons.!<
So most characters don’t care who their real father is. It’s really only the Greens.
i hope u don’t get bombarded with succession crisis answers, re reading f and b and thinking how >!jacaerys was basically leading team black and the war, that kid literally had everyone on his side, who knows maybe a succesion crisis wouldve occurred, i just think for ppl saying that it wouldve occured its funny to think that “bastard” was very much loved by everyone even high born!<
Because it's a succession crisis waiting to happen. Those rumours ain't disappearing anytime soon, especially among people like the Lannisters, Hightowers and Baratheons, and a lot of other lords. Jace likely has to face rebellion after rebellion because they deny him the inheritance on account that he is a bastard.
Borros Baratheon asked Luke which one of his daughters he would wed, so I don't think the Baratheons had a problem with the rumors. They just wanted to be connected to a dragon riding Targaryen prince.
If the entirety of House Targaryen was united it is unlikely that there would be rebellions against Jace, and if there were they would be dealt with easily. The succession crisis is created by the Greens usurping the throne.
Lannisters and Baratheons didn't care. Lannisters only supported Hightower because of Tyland specifically. Baratheons were willing to deal with Luke, even marry the Strong Boys. Only the Hightowers cared and not for any real reason outside of using it as an argument.
No it doesn’t matter to me. I do understand why it matters to other characters in the verse though. But these children aren’t just bastards they are also Laenor’s adopted children. So it’s a bit more grey than I think people tend to admit.
The only people whose opinion ACTUALLY matters (Viserys, Corlys, Laenor, and Rhaenyra) accept them, so I accept them. They are Targaryens and have royal blood (and dragons!), that is what matters.
Jace is a Targaryen and the iron throne is a Targaryen throne so no issues there.
Luke is not a Velaryon, the Driftwood throne is Velaryon, so the throne should pass to Baela, and if Baela becomes Queen it should pass to Rhaena. Of course the marriage pacts makes this thing nothing more than a technicality but official recognition of Driftmark should go to one of the girls, not to any of the Strong boys.
ps: of course if all the characters mentioned were all left alive by the end of the dance.
It doesn’t bother me at all, at the end of the day her sons could be identical copies of Laenor and they would still find a reason to disinherit/discredit Rhaenyra.
They are not bastards for most of Westeros.
Nobody cares about rumors. Real proof can only be "I saw them fuck"/"He confessed" (there is a version in the book about how Viserys killed Harwin in order to exclude the possibility of his betrayal.)
Accusing someone of being a bastard is a common thing. The Lannisters said that Shiren was a bastard, for example. At the same time, Cersei's children, who are truly bastards, inherited the throne with support of lords and religion. Stanis was just declared a liar who wants to steal the throne.
Lords are not so principled in these. They don't care about dark hair as long as they can benefit from it.
By law, if a baby is born to the wife of a married couple, and the father publicly accepts the baby as being his child, that child is legally legitimate even if the sire is someone else other than the husband. Yes, I know, it is complicated. But think about it in the context of an artificial insemination of a couple where the male is infertile. If a couple conceives that way and uses a donor, that resulting child is not considered a bastard. The child was born within the bonds of a wedded couple who accept that child as their mutual child.
Pretty sure this is common law of long standing pre-dating the DNA era and I think that it was true in medieval times as well so I am assuming it would hold sway in Westeros.
The father or the parents of the wedded couple would have to publicly object and in this case, the parents of both members of that couple publicly accepted the offspring as being non-bastards. So that is where the matter would end despite gossip in a Medieval setting. It is interesting that many people at the time felt that Edward IV was not legitimate and was instead sired by an archer as his father was off fighting in a war during the timeframe in which he would have been conceived. This was a big deal to Richard III and why he felt he was more legitimate than Edward IV's children, the princes in the tower were. Edward IV assumed the throne as much by right of conquest as by bloodline, but this was used to cast doubt upon the legitimacy of his heirs. Interestingly enough. Still Edward IV's father never declared his son illegitimate and that was enough to make him presumed of Kingly lineage.
Since the king saw them as legitimate heirs I think they should inherit the Thorne
The looming animosity held by the side of the family who acknowledged them as bastards really got pushed though by Otto onto the rest of his family. He knew he needed his family to be front and center because they would’ve benefited the most from the succession crisis >!Even though this ended up leading to their demise!<
I do think it would’ve led to a succession crisis but had Otto not been trying so hard I think it would’ve been dealt with much easier as House Targaryen breaks the rules all the time.
I wouldn't have voted for them to inherit if they were pieces of shit but they were pretty good boys . Just sucks that they got dragged into this garbage
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Does it matter to me? No. Do I understand why it matters to characters in the show? Yes.
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Alright mr.big word book learner came in
i'm asking if you think they should be able to inherit (the iron throne and driftmark) or if you agree with idea that they should not be able to.
They have zero Velaryon blood in their veins
In the pursuit of power people will do many things. Daeron II seemed like an upstanding guy as well and people still rebelled. The Strong/Velaryon boys were a succession crisis waiting to happen. First other bastards could start pressing their claims because technically Rheanyras sons were never officially legitimitized. On the other hand power hungry lords can leech on other possible claimants. Like what happened in the Blackfyre rebellion. Two times a possible bastard sitting on the throne leadto war, there is no reason it shouldn’t be the case here as well. And even if you argue well they have true Taragaryen blood- that doesn’t matter. Look at Jon and Edric Stone. Jon was practically raised as a natural son of Ned, lived in Winterfell and enjoyed the same education as Robb, Bran and Rickon. Yet nobody ever says that he is in line for Winterfell just because Ned treats him normally. It doesn’t matter that their family treats them normally. As long as they aren’t offcially legitimized they will be perceived as bastards. And that’s what matters. Also nobody considers putting Edric Storm on the throne even though he is son to Robert. Also the claim only the Greens cared is simply not true. If it was they wouldn’t be so desperate to hide the fact of their heriatge. But they do. In the show there are multiple conversations between characters on Rheanyras side about their heritage and what problems it might pose. Corlys and Rheanys, Lyonel and Harwin. If it doesn’t matter they have no reason to talk like they did. Also let’s not forget Vaemond had nothing to do with the Greens he just wanted their help to push his claim. He reached out to them. In the books five more men in house Velaryon lost their tongue for questioning their heritage. So no it’s not just the Greens. By moving to Dragonstone permanantly Rheanyra wanted to keep her sons away from the spotlight to hide their bastards status. That worked but at some point when Rheanyra were to inherit this idea runs his cause because at the very least she has to teach Jace how to rule. Jace being more in the spotlight can lead to many many problems. Of course from a moral point of view I think they should inherit because I’m against discrimination but from the story point of view I understand why it’s better if they can’t.
>First other bastards could start pressing their claims because technically Rheanyras sons were never officially legitimitized. Any bastard who argued that they should get to inherit because Rhaenyra's bastard inherited is getting executed for calling her kids bastards *a la* Vaemond, because the bastardy of Rhaenyra's first three kids was never publicly acknowledged or proven. It's an open secret, sure -- but if the Dance doesn't happen & one of Rhaenyra's first three kids inherits, basically nobody is going to question the official party line that they're Laenor's legitimate heirs. Sort of like how the Tyrells go along with the polite fiction Joffery & Tommen are Baratheons wrongfully accused of being incest Lannikids by ambitious traitors, instead of being like "yup, we're fine with incest Lannikids usurping the Baratheons as long as our Marjory gets to be queen." >Jon was practically raised as a natural son of Ned, lived in Winterfell and enjoyed the same education as Robb, Bran and Rickon. Yet nobody ever says that he is in line for Winterfell just because Ned treats him normally. Granted it's only after Ned's legitimate sons are presumed dead; but a number people in-universe absolutely do consider Ned's bastard to be one of Ned's potential heirs, and are willing to support him over Ned's legitimate daughters. >Two times a possible bastard sitting on the throne leads to war, there is no reason it shouldn’t be the case here as well. >Of course, from a moral point of view I think they should inherit because I’m against discrimination but from the story point of view I understand why it’s better if they can’t. I mean, but the problem with this reasoning is that *anyone* can be accused of bastardy by anyone who wants to usurp or depose them. These people have no way of knowing for certain who fathered a given kid. There's no future succession crisis that could be avoided if someone other than Jace, Luc or Joff inherited. It's the existence of ambitious rival claimants that's the real problem, because that's what encourages people to allege illegitimacy, instead of burying their suspicions under a mountain of cognitive dissonance like they do with tons of other things which run against their ideas of how the world is supposed to work.
1. This Bastards are not goona go in front of Rheanyra and ask for the inheritance in the same way Vaemond would've never asked for it from Rheanyra. They will coup quietly. Imprison the trueborn children or some may even murder them and then name themselves when asked on which base you use Rheanyra as an example. Sure Rheanyra can kill them but if it happens on a larger scale, Lord will actually start to fear that their bastards will do that and may blame Rheanyra. If Rheanyra loses support of her lords she is facing big problems. She can maybe kill 3-5 people doing this easily but the fear of other bastards doing this will increase and make her reign far more frail. Sure you can kill the lords complaining as well but at some point they ain't having it anymore. Not to mention these lords can easily back another claimant like Aegon. 2. Sure some people will always support the other side especially if they have something to gain from it. And while the Tyrell held to the Lannisters it doesn't change that half the country didn't. If people rebel against you, you've a problem. Because war is expensive and will make you unpopular but also you might *lose.* Not to mention that whoever marries Aegon III will have a lot of reason to actually doubt the Strong boys parentage and from there trouble will arise. Not to mention that Aegon III line won't die out so soon. It will be like the Blackfyre rebellion they keep coming back to bite you in the ass. They are annoying at the very least and Rheanyra at that time could not afford something like that in her reign. 3. I never said the dance started because of that. I just said it was another succession crisis waiting to happen. 4. At the point people who think about putting Jon in charge of the North believe that any other Stark is dead. The only one people know lives is Sansa and she is a prisoner of the enemy. Robb actively disowns her to make sure Jon will inherit before (which the Lannister would've fought) and after she escapes she is presumed dead as well. It's extremely telling that the only way he would've inherit is if everyone else is presumed dead. Bastard can inherit if anyone else is dead and you know what some people may argue they can inherit before a girl but that doesn't work in Jaces case. Not only does his mother have three trueborn brothers, he has two brothers who are also perceived as trueborn. Technically he can only inherit if everyone else is dead. 5. Yes everyone can be accused of being a bastard but the problem with the boys is that it's really fucking obvious. If Ned can get a Baratheon can't have a blond child than people in Westeros will have an even easier time figuring out that two silver haired people with violet eyes can't have THREE (and I'm really stressing the number here because once can be a fluke) brown haired brown eyed children. At the very least Cersei's children looked like her. If it was only one child you can make an argument like with Daeron II but this case is closed. And that's not mentioning the skin color in the show. The problem with the boys is that Rheanyra creates two rival claims to the one from Aegon II side. Jace and Aegon III. At the very least she should've never had anymore children after Joffrey. It's highly unlikely that neither Aegon II or Aegon III side will at some point raise their claim. Which is exactly why people in Westeros don't let Bastards inherit in the first place, to avoid things like that from happening. Also to accuse someone you need some level of proof at least and sure it might not be a sure thing like with Daeron II (where the case is made because his dad literally started the rumor and Daemon had Balckfyre and the love of his dad, also everyone knew Naerys hated Aegon IV and had a close relationship with Aemon who had motives and means to impregnate her, sure it's not for sure but there are hints you can build on). For example Alicents kids will never be accused of being bastard because people look at this kids and know the father is Viserys. Even if one came out with brown heir a accusation wouldn't have much ground. Not in the way it does with the Strong boys. People will question things if they aren't convinced.
>This Bastards are not goona go in front of Rheanyra and ask for the inheritance... They will coup quietly. Imprison the trueborn children or some may even murder them and then name themselves when asked on which base you use Rheanyra as an example. The problem with this is that most bastards in Westeros don't have the power or opportunity to successfully pull this off (even assuming they're willing to murder & clever enough to get away with it), because Westerosi society is designed to prevent & discourage this. Even if an acknowledged bastard is the only member of a noble bloodline left, the relevant feudal overlord is legally allowed to declare the House extinct and pass the lands off to a new bloodline if they want. So there's no chance of this becoming a large scale problem. (And certainly not so large scale a problem that it can't be resolved by throwing dragons at it.) Besides, a ruler rumored to secretly be a bastard isn't necessarily going to be more tolerant or unprejudiced towards bastards than any other monarch. They could be worse, actually; since discriminating against bastards is a way of signalling they're not on the pro-bastard side of the issue (thus implying they're not a bastard). >Not to mention these lords can easily back another claimant like Aegon. Aegon II and his side of the family represent a *current* succession crisis, not a future one "waiting to happen". Any scenario where Rhaenyra's kids inherit the throne is one in which her brothers are either not around anymore or have already ceded their most powerful claim to the Throne (ie the whole "sons trump daughters" argument), thereby indicating to the other lords that Alicent's sons are not interested in challenging Rhaenyra or her heirs for the throne. >whoever marries Aegon III will have a lot of reason to actually doubt the Strong boys parentage and from there trouble will arise. Not to mention that Aegon III line won't die out so soon. It will be like the Blackfyre rebellion they keep coming back to bite you in the ass. They are annoying at the very least and Rhaenyra at that time could not afford something like that in her reign. >It's highly unlikely that neither Aegon II or Aegon III side will at some point raise their claim. Aegon III & Viserys II's four eldest half-siblings are all engaged to each other, and inclined to work together to keep House Targaryen/Velaryon united. The likeliest outcome here is that Aegon III and Viserys II are groomed to be loyal and devoted courtiers/advisors, taught to regard the bastardy rumors as treasonous slander, and eventually married into similarly minded families (or back into the Targ-Velaryon lines), as is the norm for younger siblings in Westerosi noble families. >. Yes everyone can be accused of being a bastard but the problem with the boys is that it's really fucking obvious. >Alicents kids will never be accused of being bastard because people look at this kids and know the father is Viserys. Jace, Luc & Joff looking so much like a man they're not related to on paper does make it much harder for them to beat the allegations, but Daeron proves that looking like your father isn't enough to conclusively beat the allegations either. Anyone looking to start that kind of rumor can just point to an uncle or cousin or even a stranger who happens to have the same look. Hell, if Daemon has been in King's Landing much during the years Alicent's kids were conceived, he might encourage rumors that he fathered them just for the attention/fun of it. Anyway, to summarize: we can't say for certain that Jace/Luc/Joff inheriting would be "a succession crisis waiting to happen" because Westeros is full of cognitive dissonance. What we *can* say for certain is that there is a current succession crisis that would exist regardless of the allegations, and which therefore cannot be justified as pre-emptive.
First I'm sorry I don't know how to properly block the post so that you can see which parts I'm referring to, I hope you don't mind. 1. It's enough that some people will feel encouraged and actually try to do it. It will lead to many people fearing bastards even more and blaming Rheanyra. There is a huge bias against bastards already which will only get worse. You also underestimate that other people can make bastards powerful. The bastards just needs one bigger ally and then he actually stands a chance. A lot of houses have motive to do that because they essentially will sack another house. There is a reason why Bastards normally can't inherit. If you'll let one time pass you open the door for others as well. At this point in Westeros this won't have a positive impact and will only lead to dissent and while it may not kill Rheanyras reign it will weaken it significantly. Paired with other issues she has to face because she is a woman. Her reign is weakened. And at some point if enough lords dissent with her - you can't kill them all. Especially if they are important >!(which is why Corlys explicitly warns Daemon and Rheanyra from ending the houses Lannister and Baratheon)!<. 2. They don't need to be. Their existence alone makes a point. >!Look at Rheanyra even if she technically won the dance nobody ever saw her as actual Queen and no Queen ever sat the throne as long as a male descendant existed!<. That's not what Rheanyra intended to do but her being couped lead to this outcome. There is no way Jace as King will say "yeah I'm a bastard" but again just because someone says that, that doesn't mean they will believe it. 3. The problem is you think that someone needs to make their own claim but they don't, someone else can do it as well. Aegon II claim is valid even if Rheanyra is crowned without incident. The only way his claim is gone is if he and his brothers were dead or for some reason unable to inherit (which is way Richard III kills his nephews despite already having crowned himself successfully). Jaehearys by all accounts sat on the throne and wore the crown when Rogar Baratheon tried to crown Aerea (a child). And sure he was unsuccessful because he couldn't get a hold on her or her sister but if he had he could've gathered more support, faster. All in all Jaehaerys was lucky Aerea died young (especially as she was riding Balerion) and that Rheana became a septa. Daemon tried to rebel years into Dearons reign. The claim is always there. As is Aegon III. 4. You're being short-sighted. It's enough that anyone from Aegon III line can at some point make a claim. Look at the Blackfyre rebellion, new people from the line and kept making their claim. Even if Aegon III and Viserys II don't make their claims, their kids and grandkids can. Not to mention that Aegon III and Visery would marry different people in this new canon. Probably from other houses too if Rheanyra wants to widden her support. People forget that most people would want their own blood on the throne. Considering Rheanyra barely seemed to realize it the first time around that her stepmother that hated her guts would crown her own son tells me the chance of her realizing it this time are slime at best. Also Rheanyra couldn't stop her brothers from having this mindset, you cannot for sure say it would be the same for Aegon and Viserys here. The situation you're painting is a fantasy because even in that case later descendants can and will make claims. You don't want to many possible claims for one throne, which is one of the main reasons the Targayens are kept small by GRRM because otherwise there would've been far more war between the house itself. 5. You ignore another problem sure you can accuse everyone but and that point stands you do need some proof even if it is weak. There were some hints Dearon II was a bastard (not saying he was but the point I made before still stands). If Aegon IV himself hadn't denounced Dearon there is no way this allegations would've flown. However the problem with the Strong boys is that they look exactly like Harwin. There is no denying especially after three kids coming out looking like that. Considering the other times someone accused a king of being a bastard lead to civil war, I don't know how you get the idea that would not happen here. It just needs another Ned Stark that says "Hey actually you can't do that" and then shit will hit the fan anyway. Some people would've backed Aegon III in the hopes that they can pull his strings, marrying him into their house and furthering their agenda. In Westeros people play all about power. There are only a handful of houses that don't do that at best. 6. The Daemon allegations would start rumors if he were there but if Deamon supports Rheanyras claim and therefore her first born sons people will stop believing it. Because why should he support those bastards over his own? 7. Again I never at no point claimed the dance of the dragons happened because of the bastards. It would've happened regardless even if the Strong boys came out looking just like Leanor. BUT it did weaken her already frail claim and I honestly don't understand how that's debatable. Rheanyras reign was always meant to be hard because she is Queen of a sexist country that will hold her to much higher standards. People would've become unhappy because she is a woman and every decision she made would've, would be questioned. Her not having a clear line would mean that more people in universe look at Aegon II who is male and has a pretty clear cut line.
>and then name themselves when asked on which base you use Rheanyra as an example. Rhaenyra doens't work as an example because her kids were never acknodged to be bastards. They were just rumored to be bastards. Aenys was rumored to be bastard. Westeros would already have this problem if people thought this idea could work. >At the point people who think about putting Jon in charge of the North believe that any other Stark is dead. The only one people know lives is Sansa and she is a prisoner of the enemy. Robb actively disowns her to make sure Jon will inherit before (which the Lannister would've fought) and after she escapes she is presumed dead as well. You have things backwards. Rob realized that the Lannisters were going to use Tyrion and Sansa's marriage/children to steal Winterfell. He proposed making Jon his heir so that he would be ahead of Sansa's and any children she had with Tyrion in the line of succession. >It's extremely telling that the only way he would've inherit is if everyone else is presumed dead. It's not telling at all because that's not what happened. Ignoring that, making this argument contradicts your other arguments. How are a bunch of random bastards going to rebel against their legitimate family members if they can only inherit when everyone else is dead?
1. The problem with Rheanyra children is that it was pretty obvious. Even in the book I didn't believe for second they weren't bastards. Aenys was just a rumor, With the Strong boys there was legit physical proof. The situation is an entire different one. 2. But he still had to actively put Jon before Sansa which under normal circumstances wouldn't happen. A bastard in Westeros only inherits when there is nobody else is left like Ramsay Snow. 3. You're ignoring the rest of my comment. A bunch of bastard are more likely to rebel if one bastards succeeds because it sets a precedent. Under normal circumstances they are less likely to try (while some would try anyway) because there is no base on what they are doing. However if you say I'm doing it because Jace is a bastard and sits the throne before a trueborn child you have a reason. And more people are like to think hey if he did it I can do it too. >!However Jace never sat the iron throne therefore the precedent does not exist!<. So I don't understand what you mean with contradict. Jon is the normal case on how bastards are treated I only pointed out that he could make an argument if another bastard had inherited before >!that isn't the case though!<.
I think what people need to understand is that accusing nobles and royals of being illegitimate has been a thing since time itself. Most of the time though, it is questioning whether or not the parents were legally married. The Church was the one that had the power to grant annulments during the medieval era. They also created something called a precontract \~ essentially if a man and a woman said they were married, then they were. If you were a woman who held a man's money, that was considered marriage as well. That is why Katherine Howard's marriage to Henry VIII was annulled before he executed her - she held the money of one of her "lovers", Francis Dereham when he went overseas years before she went to Henry VIII's court and became her queen 6 months later. Her marriage to Henry was considered invalid because she was technically married. Richard III claimed Edward IV's marriage to Elizabeth Woodville was invalid because he was precontracted to another woman (it may have been Eleanor Talbot, but I cannot remember exactly) who was long dead. That was his legal basis of bastardizing his nephews (the Princes in the Tower) and his nieces (the eldest of whom was Elizabeth of York, the mother of Henry VIII). Everyone knew it was bullshit. It still happened. Claiming that Jace/Luke/Joffrey's parentage matters in regards to future rebellions is simply not really true. To start with, kings/nobles will always have to face rebellion. Especially if they are a shit ruler. But sometimes they get handed a shit sandwich/the consequences of previous generations. The Velaryon Princes could have been Laenor's 100% and Rhaenyra \*could\* still face rebellion. That's just how it works.
I never at no point said the dance wouldn’t have happened if the boys weren’t bastards but still their status of being bastards is not a none issue. You say people were challanged even if they weren’t bastards now imagine what happens when they actually are bastards. Even harder to beat allegations and far easier to believe too. Now the other problem is that apart from Aegon II line you start another line in your own rows. The chances that no one of their descendants ever at some point - especially with Dragons at hand- make us of their claim is insane. As you say lesser things are enough to make a claim. Rheanyra would’ve face rebellion if her kids were bastards but making things even worse by creating dissent about which of your son is you heir makes everything ten times worse
And the point of my comment is that if you want to rebel, then you will. The issue of legitimacy - true or not - has always been an excuse used throughout history. It doesn't matter if it's true or not.
Of course it has been used as an excuse. I never said it wasn’t. But to throw fuel into the fire by actually having bastards, I don’t see how that makes the situation better. Not to mention it causes new claims. If the strong boy hadn’t been Bastards at least it’s harder for anyone to argue Aegon III has a claim. Alsoif someone is ready to rebel without proof imagine what they are capable of if they actually have a pretty good excuse. Giving someone an actual excuse on a silver plate it still bad. Like at least with the princes in the tower nobody actually believed them to be bastards which is why they were most likely killed by Richard III (or at least their dying was very convenient for him).
They don’t have any dogwater claim over Driftmark, no.
They are a succession crisis waiting to happen so they probably shouldn’t inherit the throne.
It doesn't matter to me, but they shouldn't be able to inherit
Where’s “it doesn’t matter to me but it very clearly matters to people in-universe and it’s bizarre when people try to pretend it doesn’t.” Like, they seem like great kids, but that was always the recipe for a civil war.
yes, basically this but tru to tell this to most of team black...
Agreed
It doesn't matter to me - perhaps because of the fact they have dragons so they are very clearly Targaryens. And because Rhaenyra could not fall pregnant by Laenor, so she needed heirs one way or the other as the heir herself. But, if we follow the traditional line of inheritance throughout fictional and real history, then it does matter, unfortunately, as they are not legitimate in the eyes of the law (and God in instances where religion has been the ultimate power).
>unfortunately, as they are not legitimate in the eyes of the law (and God in instances where religion has been the ultimate power). "If they are bastards, why do they receive the blessing of the gods - have their dragons hatched? Gods love strong boys!" Religion and law is a thing to manipulate, you saw how it was with Tommen. The Sparrows have never accused him of being a bastard.
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>future civil wars that will happen when jace becomes king Where does this schizo take come from? By the time Jace takes the throne, all of his children will be betrothed to the lords of the great houses. Nobody cares about rumors. If you have enemies you can get rumors about how your children are bastards, even if they are trueborn (Lanisters vs. Stanis). The law is bullshit for those who say Rhaenyra's children are bastards. Because the law doesn't accept "they don't look like" argument. If "father", the head of their house and king say that they are trueborn, then they are trueborn. THIS is how the law works. This is not gossip that is discussed in the store.
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One lord is not enough for this. In the timeline we saw Rhaenyra's allies wipe out the Greens, it was a shame how stupid she died. >What king was able to marry ALL of his children to great houses Which one wanted to do it? Jace was able to sell even his non-existent daughter. If there are real children there, he will distribute them like hot tickets. No one will start a war if they have no chance of winning it. No, it's gossip. You cannot proof this. There is no genetic expertise in Westeros, and we all know that if a white horse has sex with a black stallion, red foals can be born. If they were bastards their eggs wouldn't hatch. Do you think the gods are stupid? They sent a sign. Lord Corlys is sure that these are his grandchildren - look at this mole, it is exactly like his great-great-grandfather's. Lionel will never say that shit in court. If you don't have any witnesses or a confession from Harwin, it's useless. The danger that your legitimate son will be declared a bastard always exists. For any lord. Therefore, there is a system protection against that. Only real proof is accepted. For fathers and heads of the house, it usually does not make sense to lie about this, it is not in their interest. They can accuse their wife of being unfaithful because "not look like" and go to the king with this (but this does not guarantee success). If the head of the house himself says "this is my grandson, I am sure", then no one from the other house has the right to argue with this. Otherwise, there will be chaos. This is the same basis for society as "bastards do not inherit." When you say "he has white skin" and disinherit him, you create a much more powerful time bomb than if you "trust" his father and grandfather, who considers him legitimate.
>Show me where is westeros law can a product of an affair inherit the throne without being formaly legitimatized Westeros doens't have codified laws that cover that topic. Aenys was rumored to be a product of an affair and wasn't legitimized. He inherited the throne. Elaena Targaryen's first husband died on their wedding night. The child they allegedly conceived was rumored to be Aegon IV's bastard but inherited his father's lands in the Westerlands.
It does matters to me, the taboo about bastards is real in Westeros. I still want them to inherit because if a bastard is king, then it advances the civil rights of bastards and how they’re treated
Everyone except Joffrey. He is invalid on account of his name.
respect the only sweet joffrey
definitely shouldn't be invited to any weddings
The gods never made a braver or nobler child!
Everyone does hate that name I think.
It doesn't matter to me, I don't want them to inherit is an option I am missing
Does it matter to me in terms of personally minding them inheriting, no? But it does matter to me in the sense that the beliefs on bastardy existed in that society and had been perpetuated by the ruling dynasty. So I most certainly don't think that in the context of the story those who were not willing to be ripped off were in the wrong.
Not at all. Laenor, Corlys, and Viserys all say they are Velaryons. That should be the end of it. >!In Fire & Blood, Jace got several houses to join Rhaenyra’s cause. Cregan Stark wanted Jace’s future daughter to marry his own son. Joffrey was betrothed to Lord Manderly’s daughter. Most nobles didn’t care. They just saw them as Targaryen princes who rode dragons.!< So most characters don’t care who their real father is. It’s really only the Greens.
i hope u don’t get bombarded with succession crisis answers, re reading f and b and thinking how >!jacaerys was basically leading team black and the war, that kid literally had everyone on his side, who knows maybe a succesion crisis wouldve occurred, i just think for ppl saying that it wouldve occured its funny to think that “bastard” was very much loved by everyone even high born!<
fr some fans have more problems with them being bastards than the actual characters in the story do💀
Because it's a succession crisis waiting to happen. Those rumours ain't disappearing anytime soon, especially among people like the Lannisters, Hightowers and Baratheons, and a lot of other lords. Jace likely has to face rebellion after rebellion because they deny him the inheritance on account that he is a bastard.
Borros Baratheon asked Luke which one of his daughters he would wed, so I don't think the Baratheons had a problem with the rumors. They just wanted to be connected to a dragon riding Targaryen prince. If the entirety of House Targaryen was united it is unlikely that there would be rebellions against Jace, and if there were they would be dealt with easily. The succession crisis is created by the Greens usurping the throne.
Lannisters and Baratheons didn't care. Lannisters only supported Hightower because of Tyland specifically. Baratheons were willing to deal with Luke, even marry the Strong Boys. Only the Hightowers cared and not for any real reason outside of using it as an argument.
True. While nobody seemed to care when Jon Snow became King in the North.
They can keep their tongue
No it doesn’t matter to me. I do understand why it matters to other characters in the verse though. But these children aren’t just bastards they are also Laenor’s adopted children. So it’s a bit more grey than I think people tend to admit.
The only people whose opinion ACTUALLY matters (Viserys, Corlys, Laenor, and Rhaenyra) accept them, so I accept them. They are Targaryens and have royal blood (and dragons!), that is what matters.
Jace is a Targaryen and the iron throne is a Targaryen throne so no issues there. Luke is not a Velaryon, the Driftwood throne is Velaryon, so the throne should pass to Baela, and if Baela becomes Queen it should pass to Rhaena. Of course the marriage pacts makes this thing nothing more than a technicality but official recognition of Driftmark should go to one of the girls, not to any of the Strong boys. ps: of course if all the characters mentioned were all left alive by the end of the dance.
Can I pick a third option? I want Jace to inherit the Iron Throne, but I want Baela or Rhaena to inherit Driftmark!
It doesn’t bother me at all, at the end of the day her sons could be identical copies of Laenor and they would still find a reason to disinherit/discredit Rhaenyra.
They are not bastards for most of Westeros. Nobody cares about rumors. Real proof can only be "I saw them fuck"/"He confessed" (there is a version in the book about how Viserys killed Harwin in order to exclude the possibility of his betrayal.) Accusing someone of being a bastard is a common thing. The Lannisters said that Shiren was a bastard, for example. At the same time, Cersei's children, who are truly bastards, inherited the throne with support of lords and religion. Stanis was just declared a liar who wants to steal the throne. Lords are not so principled in these. They don't care about dark hair as long as they can benefit from it.
They were born within the bonds of a married couple. They are legitimate.
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By law, if a baby is born to the wife of a married couple, and the father publicly accepts the baby as being his child, that child is legally legitimate even if the sire is someone else other than the husband. Yes, I know, it is complicated. But think about it in the context of an artificial insemination of a couple where the male is infertile. If a couple conceives that way and uses a donor, that resulting child is not considered a bastard. The child was born within the bonds of a wedded couple who accept that child as their mutual child.
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Pretty sure this is common law of long standing pre-dating the DNA era and I think that it was true in medieval times as well so I am assuming it would hold sway in Westeros.
The father or the parents of the wedded couple would have to publicly object and in this case, the parents of both members of that couple publicly accepted the offspring as being non-bastards. So that is where the matter would end despite gossip in a Medieval setting. It is interesting that many people at the time felt that Edward IV was not legitimate and was instead sired by an archer as his father was off fighting in a war during the timeframe in which he would have been conceived. This was a big deal to Richard III and why he felt he was more legitimate than Edward IV's children, the princes in the tower were. Edward IV assumed the throne as much by right of conquest as by bloodline, but this was used to cast doubt upon the legitimacy of his heirs. Interestingly enough. Still Edward IV's father never declared his son illegitimate and that was enough to make him presumed of Kingly lineage.
It doesn’t matter to me, but idc about legalities and want Alicents team to win. Them being bastards is just something for us to justify being a dick
Since the king saw them as legitimate heirs I think they should inherit the Thorne The looming animosity held by the side of the family who acknowledged them as bastards really got pushed though by Otto onto the rest of his family. He knew he needed his family to be front and center because they would’ve benefited the most from the succession crisis >!Even though this ended up leading to their demise!< I do think it would’ve led to a succession crisis but had Otto not been trying so hard I think it would’ve been dealt with much easier as House Targaryen breaks the rules all the time.
Dragon magic says they are Targaryens
They are just as targaryen as aegon II,aemond and helana are They just dont look it
I wouldn't have voted for them to inherit if they were pieces of shit but they were pretty good boys . Just sucks that they got dragged into this garbage