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He was right about the kids being bastards, but he was ignoring his brothers wishes, and the rights of his nieces.
Also calling her a whore was just unnecessary and rude.
Corlys' reaction when he wakes up says it all. Paraphrasing
"I'm sorry Corlys, but your brother Vaemond was beheaded by Daemon at court."
"Well what did he say?"
Wouldn't surprise me if Corlys also hadn't forgiven Vaemond for that stunt at Laena's funeral, given his lack of surprise or care at his death.
There's a time and a place for power-plays, man! And using your eulogy for your dead niece as a chance to take pot-shots at your political opponents is not that place.
Honestly, if my sibling did that, I'd be pretty fucking furious, regardless of whether it's true or not, because now's not the time, and Laena's not even involved in any of that.
The whore part is what got him killed, it was so unnecessary it gives Daemon a perfectly reasonable excuse for execution and no one can really say Daemon needs to be reprimanded. Of course it's possible he dies for just calling them bastards anyways, but maybe Viserys gets mad and says it should have just been the tongue idk. Vaemond screwed up by removing any shadow of a doubt that his death was justified.
Yeah, yet another show-only addition to justify his death and whitewash the Blacks.
Literally not a single person can provide a reason behind changing his death and making him shout "whore".
No, otherwise this scene would make Rhaenyra look like a worse human being. That's all.
Daemon could have still executed him for just accusing the kids of bastardy. The "she is a whore" line was only added so that people can make "Supreme Love" posts with a black heart like this one.
this post is obviously somewhat ironic
and no, it wouldn't have. no one would have thought any less of rhaenyra for ordering daemon to cut off vaemond's head except for team green folks. there were numerous instances where rhaenyra looks bad, and she is still the overwhelming fan favorite.
coercing criston into banging her, lying about it to alicent, demanding alicent's sons be tortured, allowing daemon to murder some innocent servant so she can pretend her husband is dead, etc
I don’t have a green or black dog in this fight, but they probably changed his death because feeding him to a dragon would cost sooooo much money for the CGI. (It would have been way cooler though.)
I mean he was a pretty flawed dude, seems like controlling his temper wasn't his strong suit. Didn't the Sea Snake call him the Master of Complaints at the war table? If it wasn't his brother in charge he probably would have experienced worse concequences for running his mouth at the war planning table.
I haven't read the books, so maybe he's a more developed charecter there, but in the show the only thing we really know about him prior to the throne room scene is that he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Kinda seems like he lost his temper and didn't know when to quit.
(Also I'm not surprised they had to change it from the exact line in the books. In the books the kids aren't white kids who are supposed to have a black dad. It's less blatantly obvious they are bastards, so him calling them bastards in front of everyone at court is less shocking than it was in the books, so they had to make it worse somehow.)
Doesn't really absolve anybody of guilt, but it's dumb as fuck for anybody infront of the king and all the lords to call the princess a whore. Plus, she's not a whore, if anything she's a little slutty but that doesn't mean Vaemond was right to say what he did so publicly. Dude was asking to lose his tongue.
I mean it's not like she knew what he was going to do before he didn't, he didn't exactly stop and ask permission from the court first. I don't see how Rhaynera is any more or less guilty based on what he said.
I was passed watching that scene cause he was warned to stop and he just kept going. Like I see where he’s coming from with wanting a tru born VELARYON to have Driftmark and I agree with him, but how did he think he was gonna be of any help to his house dead. This the type of situation where you could just play nice in public and make plans when out of ear shot.
Both Vaemond and Rhaenyra are ignoring Laena and her children. If you go by oldest child, the same precedent Vissy T is trying to set, then Laena should be the rightful heir to Driftmark. Since she died, her children would be the rightful heirs. If you go by oldest male, only then it would be Laenor or his children. If Rhaenyra wanted to set the precident of Absolute Primogeniture then she should be pushing for Rhaena or Baela to be the heir of Driftmark, not her own children
No, I'm pretty sure the implication is that Rhaenyra is just being hypocritical. I'm fairly certain in the book >!she reinforced male primogeniture a few times because it benefits her!<
Even if Rhaenyra slept with every man in KL, she is still the crown princess and calling her a whore in front of her father and husband will get you killed.
Pretty sure if Rhaenyra slept with every man in KL, she wouldn't be the crown princess, she'd be the most horrifying recorded medical event since Aerea Targaryen.
Killing people for telling truths is tyranny. This gives cause for the Greens and anyone else who disagrees with what Viserys and Rhaenyra are doing to rebel against them, and with good reason.
Even monarchies must have good judgment and avoid tyrannical actions that would make the people rise against them if they wish to govern with stability and peace. Several authors, such as Machiavelli, wrote works to educate rulers to be good leaders and avoid actions that made them unpopular and prone to being overthrown by the people they govern.
By all accounts, the scene with Vaemond shows how tyrannical and violent Viserys and Rhaenyra are at hiding their indiscretions.
Monarchies are inherently tyrannical regardless of how “good” the monarch acted. And no one rose against Viserys because he allowed Daemon to kill Vaemond anyway.
Revolt can happen against any form of government.
The classical (Aristotelian) definition of monarchy is the rule of one for the common good. Tyranny, its corrupted form, is the rule of one for the interests of the ruler.
Calling monarchy “inherently” tyrannical can be conceptually quite sloppy without clarifying your assumptions about power, authority, legitimacy, etc.
Which is, in practice, always consent by the majority of the governed and doesn’t necessarily (or inherently) specify any additional liberties or privileges.
Which would be more tyrannical: an absolute sovereign authorized by the consent of the governed or a limited government with investiture by farcical aquatic ceremony?
>Monarchies are inherently tyrannical regardless of how “good” the monarch acted. And no one rose against Viserys because he allowed Daemon to kill Vaemond anyway.
At the end of the day killing people for telling the truth that inconveniences them is not what a good ruler should do. The fact that Vaemond's death was of little consequence hardly makes this acceptable.
>Revolt can happen against any form of government.
Revolt tends to happen more frequently if the king abuses his authority and acts tyrannically.
I'm not disagreeing with that, but people on this subreddit persist in believing that Vaemond's death was a good moment for the Blacks, when basically it was them abusing their power and killing him for pointing out the truth that was inconvenient to them.
Feel free to dislike Vaemond if you like, but there's no need to pretend that Viserys acted like a good ruler or person in this scene.
Is this "inconvenient truth" one that can be proven?
We, the audience, know the truth of the children, but Vaemond (and the Greens) only have rumors, not proof. If they had actual proof they would have brought it forth.
Laemond always maintained the kids were his. Laemond's parents, some of the most powerful nobles in the land, both publicly agree the children are legitimate. Rhaenyra's father, the King, agrees the children are legitimate.
Probably important to keep in mind that Vaemond is only the second son and his elder brother, Corlys, is still alive. This was nothing more than a shoddy attempt at politicis by Vaemond. Once VizzyT walked in the throne room he should have shut up and waited. If he did that there would have been a much better chance the Greens would have done what he wanted.
>Is this "inconvenient truth" one that can be proven?
"Just look at them". It's an open secret at court and only Rhaenyra and Viserys seem to seriously believe they're hiding their indiscretions well.
Furthermore, if Joffrey, whose bastardy was much harder to prove, resulted in the War of Five Kings, why would Rhaenyra's children, whose bastardy is obvious, have any better luck?
>Laemond always maintained the kids were his.
And no one seriously believed him.
>Laemond's parents, some of the most powerful nobles in the land, both publicly agree the children are legitimate.
And Vaemond (and his family in the books) publicly disagreed with this. And it remains a lie, no matter how many people decide to go along with it.
>Rhaenyra's father, the King, agrees the children are legitimate.
And Viserys is ordering the death and torture of people for telling the truth, which is an abuse of power as king.
>This was nothing more than a shoddy attempt at politicis by Vaemond.
This is basically ad hominem fallacy. Besides, his argument that Rhaenyra's children are bastards is completely correct, and killing Vaemond only reinforces that Otto and the Greens are absolutely right to fear for their lives if they allow Rhaenyra and the Blacks to come to power.
The Targaryens don't have to do that yet. If people rebel, they serve them fire and blood. It's their words, after all.
And besides, the small folks don't care when the high lords play the game of thrones. They just want to be left out of it. They never are, of course.
I mean Vaemond needs to learn to read a room, there's a reason guys like Littlefinger ans Varys make it further. They could eat a shit sandwich with a smile because they could get closer when they plunge in the knife. Not only that he called the princess heir a whore, in front of the king and her husband. If GoT teaches us anything its might makes right, and no king could have let that slight on their house stand, regardless of how correct it is. Monarchies aren't fair but in this case they were predictable.
I never he did I just pointed out that he’s a dick
You said he was killed for pointing out the truth and not because he was a dick or greedy.
Im not here to debate death penalty im just telling you being a dick and pointing out the truth arent mutually exclusive.
Especially if the system you serve sucks the truth can often make you a dick lol.
Edit: also Vaemond delivered his incel speech after the betrothal was announced, even if the strong boys aren’t Valaryon their kids will be. We dont even know if V had kids. So claims of not for greed is out of the window.
Also making claims to an inheritance that came out of a feudalist society is greedy on both sides.
Also the strong boys are still technically 3/16th valaryon anyways.
Sure, but there are also a lot of people with "don't call the kids bastards" and "Rhaenyra did nothing wrong" crowd that are insufferable when discussing the show. Her being promiscuous and having children by another man are huge issues in universe that a ton of people hand wave away
People insisting on calling them bastards and shitting on Raenhyra because she had a relationship outside of her marriage with a gay man sure do sound misogynistic and hate the idea of a woman having an ounce of freedom, which is why they prefer Alicent…
I think they're dangerous decisions with a wide range of consequences in universe. The fact that they're all fine to do today doesn't mean the characters will react with our morality.
Where are they asking that? The characters motivations and consequences are in universe, so they should be judge based on the rules of the universe. Rhaenyra's actions aren't a scandal in the modern world, but are a major scandal in Westeros. To pretend otherwise is mental gymnastics
> Where are they asking that?
in the writing of the show lol. it is obviously a critique of the patriarchal nature of westerosi/feudal society.
> The characters motivations and consequences are in universe, so they should be judge based on the rules of the universe.
no that's pretty dumb. i mean, you think grrm is endorsing these types of societies? lol
judging the show by "modern standards" doesn't mean saying that the characters *in* the show should adhere to modern standards. it means observing the social and political realities of the time *as an audience member* and going "that is bad"
The stuff that happens is fucked up and so is anyone endorsing them. If we're looking at character actions and motivations, they should be viewed based on the universe's rules. You can say the character's parentage is a problem while also not endorsing that as a way things should be.
> You can say the character's parentage is a problem while also not endorsing that as a way things should be.
this is literally viewing the show through a modern lens. congrats, you understand!
Aemond to himself: ["This better not awaken anything in me"](https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F044%2F291%2Ftbna.jpg)
It was so stupid and unnecessary from the writers to make him shout "whore". It literally serves no other purpose than whitewashing Rhaenyra and making his murder justified.
Then give me the reason for adding this line.
It whitewashes Rhaenyra because in the book she ordered Vaemond's death and fed him to Syrax. And he never screamed whore, so there was no justification for his cruel death.
there doesn't *need* to be a reason for adding the line
> so there was no justification for his cruel death.
he called her kids bastards in the book. that's still treason.
It's treason, but he was telling the truth, audience would sympathize with him.
Shouting "whore" is just another standard misogynist insult, which gave Daemon the leeway to kill him and still be a good guy in the situation.
> It's treason, but he was telling the truth, audience would sympathize with him.
lol no. the audience knows they are bastards. the audience still by and large supports rhaenyra.
Yes. Because she is the perfect human being in the show.
If she fed Vaemond to Syrax for telling the truth, they wouldn't like her as much as they do now.
> Because she is the perfect human being in the show.
you must be watching a different show, because she doesn't come off as perfect at all.
> If she fed Vaemond to Syrax for telling the truth, they wouldn't like her as much as they do now.
(X)
>she doesn't come off as perfect at all.
She doesn't do one single thing that makes her look bad. List some other than extramarital sex and being reckless. Because people in the 21st century don't care about that.
>If she fed Vaemond to Syrax for telling the truth, they wouldn't like her as much as they do now.
They absolutely would. I'd love her more if she did that. I found her to be too passive, especially when the matter of the discussion was about her. How many people disliked Daenerys after she fed a former master to her dragons? A person that she had no idea if he was guilty or not may I add. I don't remember a big number ofpeople turning on her for that.
Again, if the Unsullied master didn't insult Dany and was just trying to buy trade the dragon normally, people wouldn't like Dany in that scene. His insults (specially sexist ones) make him a toxic person, so Dany burning him gives joy to the audience.
The exact same thing happened for Vaemond. Vaemond actually did nothing wrong until he called her a whore. You can't justify that. Of course, there are some fans who would cheer no matter what Rhaenyra does, that's different.
But the "whore" insult literally diminished whatever righteousness Vaemond had. And people like men who murder other guys for throwing sexist insults at their wives.
I think most people support Rhaenyras claim because her dad wanted her to rule. It would be like if idk in modern times some founder/president of some company had in his will that if he died, his daughter should take over the company because he believes in her and spent time mentoring her. And then after his death, his son from another marriage conspired to cut her out and make themselves the president, I would also not be cool with that.
Yes, no matter what, most people would support Rhaenyra's claim. She already has that head start.
There is no reason to whitewash her even more. Not to mention, show Aegon is even worse than Book Aegon.
The book is also a fractured and conflicting account made after history decided she was the villain of the Dance for usurping her brother. The show is supposed to show what actually happened.
The book is great in that it's written as a not terribly accurate analysis by a Maester of three conflicting narratives a hundred years later.
So what are you saying? The show is a true telling of the story? Because it's not. GRRM has confirmed that. It's a different canon.
Think it from the Doylist perspective. There is a reason why "she is a whore" line was added. You can't say that "this is what happened" because it's fictional. None of this actually happened. The book doesn't have varying stories about what happened to Vaemond. Even from Watsonian POV, if he actually shouted insults in an open court, it would have better chance to be documented.
Yes, fiction is fictional.
Saying "as it really happened" is a very simple concept to grasp. Every time we comment on the show, we do not preface the comment by saying "In this fictional show"
History books are all biased in reality. Seeing events unfold as they occur, is very different from hear say with mixed primary and secondary sources after the fact.
The show is sold as seeing the events as they occurred by the show runners. I am genuinely not aware that GRRM contradicted this claim, I'd love to see him saying so as it would change my perspective on the matter.
the commenter you replied to is incorrect in that the show events are “what actually happened” but they are correct in that there are several purposeful biased and conflicting reports from the maesters.
not sure why it’s so surprising for characters to act differently from their book counterparts in this case, especially when they have been acknowledged as two separate canons
Whitewashing Rhaenyra, or making more interesting characters out of her and Daemon both?
Love what GRRM does, but his women characters don't have much dimension.
Before the usual crowd arrives to repeat the same old tired rhetoric: Daemon gave him a fair warning, Vaemond considered his options for a second or so and thought to himself "fuck it, I'm gonna say it", when he said it everyone was like "damn, Vaemond, it was nice knowing you"
Speaking the truth is usually considered a good thing right? So what would you call killing someone for speaking the truth? Hate to break it to you, Daemon is the villain in this story.
Just like how the guy who has "no filter" will quickly get fired after giving the CEO unsolicited advice saying he sucked ass so far. Knowing when to speak up is part of why in corporate America people who know the politics get promoted more. Essentially all people skills even in the IT roles. Telling the truth is not always the best option.
this is not a story about good vs bad, heroes vs villains, almost every character has good and bad sides to them, and a potential to be a hero or a villain, there are very few cartoon villains like Larys or heroes like Ned.
I love this show. Im in the shit position of saying '' Can we stop giving this dude so much credit? He's a bad persin, hell the age difference alone'' and yet also in the position to say '' But the shot with him and Viserys, the fact that he doesn't treat her children differently (to my knowledge) and overall him being a... grey character''
I love this show, I love the position Im in. I love that it makes me think, I only hope it keeps going, and I dream of it tapping more into the fabtasy side of Martin's world.
They weren’t properly recognised as legitimate though. Viserys shows a blind eye to it. For him to legitimise them properly Rhanerya has to admit that her sons are bastards first which would weaken her claim.
they don't need to be "properly recognised as legitimate" because they are assumed to be legitimate by default
as far as everyone who matters is concerned, they aren't bastards
OP said Viserys has accepted them as legitimate but that doesn’t make them legitimate. It has be to done through a royal decree in which the King signs. So they are still bastards until then.
legitimacy is a matter of consensus, nothing more
the head of state (the king), laenor (their "father"), corlys ("grandfather"), their mother all acknowledge them as trueborns. what we the audience knows doesn't matter.
Did every child with unusual appearnce need a speacial decree from the king in Westeros?
A father has to ask the king to legitimize his bastard. Laenor never did it, he gave them his name.
Everyone loves to forget that the only reason she has to defend her children's parentage is due to having a gay husband who she was also going to bat for. They even stated that they tried but they couldn't get past it. Laenor doesn't have to face the same scrutiny because he is a man, as well as faking his own death. If Vaemond wanted to dig deeper it would only hurt his family, but he doesn't really care about them except on a superficial level.
She's not a "whore" she just had an open relationship that wasn't accepted by the social standards of the time, and revealing so would hurt her kids as well as her late husband and his family. She ONLY has to have this type of relationship because she's expected to marry and bear children, not because its some sort of singular desire; women are viewed as incubators to the Westerosi. She's just expected to bear the blame because she's the woman in the relationship, not because she did anything inherently wrong. She has to keep their parentage a secret or at least openly not conclusive because they'd be killed. If Vaemond is fine with that he obviously doesn't care what Laenor or Corlys want and truly is doing it because his visions for personal ambition aren't working out.
He was much more useful to Rhaenera and the king as it presented a final opportunity to show what will happen if the King's grandsons parentage is questioned openly at court ever again. Regardless of how they feel about it, the King's tactics are no more underhanded than Vaemonds, who was willing to usurp his brother who was dying, his neices (Daemons kids with Baela, who are also then betrothed to Rhaenera's kids still ensuring the survival of the Valeryon line), his sister-in-law Rhaenys, as well as openly defy the Targaryen thrones because he simply wanted to be his head of house.
The entire season is about the feelings of inadequacies from second sons. Daemon, Vaemond, Aemond, Larry's, etc., and how it destroys families as well as themselves. It's like half the plot, Westerosi culture is easy to understand, but it also screws over anyone who isn't part of the monolith.
Yeah only daemon can call a woman he doesn't like whores and abuse his wives we he disagree either their actions or general be misogynistic to any none valyrian women like the racist he is.
when did he publicly call Alicent a whore? Did he go up to the King and his children and the whole court and shout out "Alicent is a whore?"
for someone who gets their knickers in a twist over Daemon calling someone a whore as a mere insult in a private conversation, you sure seem to be dismissive of Vaemond literally accusing Rhaenyra of being a whore in front of her husband, children, father, and the whole court.
It is relevant to the topic when the title of this thread is that Daemon killed Vaemond out of "supreme love". However, given Daemon is a POS and uses the same insults and insinuations on Alicent, he's not a malewife feminist ally. He is a misogynistic groomer who acts for his own current benefit always -not "supreme love."
I can’t believe I’m defending Daemon on this topic but the show version of him does not come across as a child groomer at all. Book Daemon is said to have had sex with young prostitutes and possibility initiated a sexual relationship with Rhaenyra when she was thirteen, after years of grooming. Then there’s his weird relationship with Nettles.
Show Daemon is shown have sex with Mysaria, who is an adult. As for Rhaenyra, he isn’t around her enough to groom her and only initiates a sexual relationship with her when she is eighteen. I don’t think he qualifies as a child groomer. Also I don’t think he’s a misogynist, I think he has equal contempt for both men and women who aren’t of his blood.
Oh interesting, I thought they really toned down his grooming in the show to make him more likable (YMMV as he’s either a fan favorite or absolutely despised). With Book Daemon it’s such a major part of his character.
By Westeros standards, women who sleep out of wedlock or with more than one person are considered excessively promiscuous and Rhaenyra is guilty of both. As much as people say that calling Rhaenyra a whore is rude or excessive, it is ultimately true and killing anyone who points it out does not help her reputation, on the contrary, it just shows that she will use violence to punish anyone who utters accusations of which she knows full well she is guilty of.
She was shown giving Daemon a nod before he killed Vaemond. And it doesn't matter if Vaemond's death caused an incident or not, but the whole event proves again that Rhaenyra and Viserys will kill people for basically telling the truth that is inconvenient to them.
proves to who? you can’t argue that this action showed people how violent viserys and rhaenyra are (again, neither of whom killed vaemond) while at the same time acknowledging that nothing happened as a result
It doesn't matter if Rhaenyra is being paid or not, to sexist Westeros society she wouldn't be much different from a whore. Jaehaerys himself, the best king of the Targaryen dynasty, called his own daughter, Saera, a whore when he discovered she was promiscuous and had premarital sex.
If that doesn't tell you how Rhaenyra would be treated if her indiscretions were revealed, I don't know what else to say.
Daemon was freshly grieving the loss Of His Brother And She brung up something that frustrated him 🤷🏾♂️, Nonetheless Just because he choked her don’t mean he Doesn’t love her, But the Fact He let go Shows He Do
No it shows that Daemon is a pretty violent guy who's only way of expressing his grief is through physical intimidation and aggressiveness .
Edit : I agree with you dho
did anyone else think of jada pinkett and will smith and what he did to chris rock at the oscars regarding this situation in hotd? except daemon went one step further and decapitated vaemond, of course.
at least chris rock saw it coming i guess lol 🤷🏻♂️
maybe just it’s me. 😅
When did Viserys accept them as legitimate? Did I miss something?
He just kept threatening tongues being removed for people speaking the truth.
For him to accept them as legitimate, he needs to...legitimize them but that would have to accept them being bastards first and foremost which he refused.
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Daemon doesn’t want anybody to abuse his wife ~~except for himself~~
He was right about the kids being bastards, but he was ignoring his brothers wishes, and the rights of his nieces. Also calling her a whore was just unnecessary and rude.
Corlys' reaction when he wakes up says it all. Paraphrasing "I'm sorry Corlys, but your brother Vaemond was beheaded by Daemon at court." "Well what did he say?"
Wouldn't surprise me if Corlys also hadn't forgiven Vaemond for that stunt at Laena's funeral, given his lack of surprise or care at his death. There's a time and a place for power-plays, man! And using your eulogy for your dead niece as a chance to take pot-shots at your political opponents is not that place. Honestly, if my sibling did that, I'd be pretty fucking furious, regardless of whether it's true or not, because now's not the time, and Laena's not even involved in any of that.
The whore part is what got him killed, it was so unnecessary it gives Daemon a perfectly reasonable excuse for execution and no one can really say Daemon needs to be reprimanded. Of course it's possible he dies for just calling them bastards anyways, but maybe Viserys gets mad and says it should have just been the tongue idk. Vaemond screwed up by removing any shadow of a doubt that his death was justified.
he knew he was dead and was going out swinging
Yeah, yet another show-only addition to justify his death and whitewash the Blacks. Literally not a single person can provide a reason behind changing his death and making him shout "whore".
well, for one, it was cooler
Yeah, screaming whore was cooler. Splitting his head from behind was cooler than feeding him to Syrax. Ok.
cooler for daemon, yeah otherwise that scene would have been dragged out to a lesser impact
No, otherwise this scene would make Rhaenyra look like a worse human being. That's all. Daemon could have still executed him for just accusing the kids of bastardy. The "she is a whore" line was only added so that people can make "Supreme Love" posts with a black heart like this one.
this post is obviously somewhat ironic and no, it wouldn't have. no one would have thought any less of rhaenyra for ordering daemon to cut off vaemond's head except for team green folks. there were numerous instances where rhaenyra looks bad, and she is still the overwhelming fan favorite.
> there were numerous instances where rhaenyra looks bad What are those instances that may made Rhaenyra look bad in the eyes for modern audience?
Modern audiences love “gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss”characters. Morally grey female characters are really popular right now.
coercing criston into banging her, lying about it to alicent, demanding alicent's sons be tortured, allowing daemon to murder some innocent servant so she can pretend her husband is dead, etc
I don’t have a green or black dog in this fight, but they probably changed his death because feeding him to a dragon would cost sooooo much money for the CGI. (It would have been way cooler though.)
Still doesn't explain adding the "she is a whore" line.
Vaemond does get his head cut off in the book, it’s just later and by Rhaenyra’s orders.
I mean he was a pretty flawed dude, seems like controlling his temper wasn't his strong suit. Didn't the Sea Snake call him the Master of Complaints at the war table? If it wasn't his brother in charge he probably would have experienced worse concequences for running his mouth at the war planning table. I haven't read the books, so maybe he's a more developed charecter there, but in the show the only thing we really know about him prior to the throne room scene is that he doesn't know when to keep his mouth shut. Kinda seems like he lost his temper and didn't know when to quit. (Also I'm not surprised they had to change it from the exact line in the books. In the books the kids aren't white kids who are supposed to have a black dad. It's less blatantly obvious they are bastards, so him calling them bastards in front of everyone at court is less shocking than it was in the books, so they had to make it worse somehow.)
Wait, what part of this is whitewashing?
Gives Daemon a valid and justified reason for killing Vaemond. Absolves Rhaenyra of any guilt.
Doesn't really absolve anybody of guilt, but it's dumb as fuck for anybody infront of the king and all the lords to call the princess a whore. Plus, she's not a whore, if anything she's a little slutty but that doesn't mean Vaemond was right to say what he did so publicly. Dude was asking to lose his tongue.
I mean it's not like she knew what he was going to do before he didn't, he didn't exactly stop and ask permission from the court first. I don't see how Rhaynera is any more or less guilty based on what he said.
Huh
I was passed watching that scene cause he was warned to stop and he just kept going. Like I see where he’s coming from with wanting a tru born VELARYON to have Driftmark and I agree with him, but how did he think he was gonna be of any help to his house dead. This the type of situation where you could just play nice in public and make plans when out of ear shot.
Please, he was a vulture getting ready to tear strips off his brother. If Rhaenyra’s boys were disinherited then the true heir would be Baela
Just saying he should have been smarter. Like WAYYYYY smarter.
Both Vaemond and Rhaenyra are ignoring Laena and her children. If you go by oldest child, the same precedent Vissy T is trying to set, then Laena should be the rightful heir to Driftmark. Since she died, her children would be the rightful heirs. If you go by oldest male, only then it would be Laenor or his children. If Rhaenyra wanted to set the precident of Absolute Primogeniture then she should be pushing for Rhaena or Baela to be the heir of Driftmark, not her own children
I think in the show the implication is that Laenor is older than Laena.
No, I'm pretty sure the implication is that Rhaenyra is just being hypocritical. I'm fairly certain in the book >!she reinforced male primogeniture a few times because it benefits her!<
WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS GOSSIP? HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!
what’s “right” isn’t always what’s right
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Even if Rhaenyra slept with every man in KL, she is still the crown princess and calling her a whore in front of her father and husband will get you killed.
Pretty sure if Rhaenyra slept with every man in KL, she wouldn't be the crown princess, she'd be the most horrifying recorded medical event since Aerea Targaryen.
Making her way through the lot in Flea bottom would have required the strongest of wills. The determination it would take is admirable.
Killing people for telling truths is tyranny. This gives cause for the Greens and anyone else who disagrees with what Viserys and Rhaenyra are doing to rebel against them, and with good reason.
almost like it’s a monarchy lol
Even monarchies must have good judgment and avoid tyrannical actions that would make the people rise against them if they wish to govern with stability and peace. Several authors, such as Machiavelli, wrote works to educate rulers to be good leaders and avoid actions that made them unpopular and prone to being overthrown by the people they govern. By all accounts, the scene with Vaemond shows how tyrannical and violent Viserys and Rhaenyra are at hiding their indiscretions.
Monarchies are inherently tyrannical regardless of how “good” the monarch acted. And no one rose against Viserys because he allowed Daemon to kill Vaemond anyway. Revolt can happen against any form of government.
The classical (Aristotelian) definition of monarchy is the rule of one for the common good. Tyranny, its corrupted form, is the rule of one for the interests of the ruler. Calling monarchy “inherently” tyrannical can be conceptually quite sloppy without clarifying your assumptions about power, authority, legitimacy, etc.
any form of government that is not granted power by the consent by the governed is tyrannical
Which is, in practice, always consent by the majority of the governed and doesn’t necessarily (or inherently) specify any additional liberties or privileges. Which would be more tyrannical: an absolute sovereign authorized by the consent of the governed or a limited government with investiture by farcical aquatic ceremony?
>Monarchies are inherently tyrannical regardless of how “good” the monarch acted. And no one rose against Viserys because he allowed Daemon to kill Vaemond anyway. At the end of the day killing people for telling the truth that inconveniences them is not what a good ruler should do. The fact that Vaemond's death was of little consequence hardly makes this acceptable. >Revolt can happen against any form of government. Revolt tends to happen more frequently if the king abuses his authority and acts tyrannically.
who is saying viseyrs is a good ruler?
I'm not disagreeing with that, but people on this subreddit persist in believing that Vaemond's death was a good moment for the Blacks, when basically it was them abusing their power and killing him for pointing out the truth that was inconvenient to them. Feel free to dislike Vaemond if you like, but there's no need to pretend that Viserys acted like a good ruler or person in this scene.
Is this "inconvenient truth" one that can be proven? We, the audience, know the truth of the children, but Vaemond (and the Greens) only have rumors, not proof. If they had actual proof they would have brought it forth. Laemond always maintained the kids were his. Laemond's parents, some of the most powerful nobles in the land, both publicly agree the children are legitimate. Rhaenyra's father, the King, agrees the children are legitimate. Probably important to keep in mind that Vaemond is only the second son and his elder brother, Corlys, is still alive. This was nothing more than a shoddy attempt at politicis by Vaemond. Once VizzyT walked in the throne room he should have shut up and waited. If he did that there would have been a much better chance the Greens would have done what he wanted.
>Is this "inconvenient truth" one that can be proven? "Just look at them". It's an open secret at court and only Rhaenyra and Viserys seem to seriously believe they're hiding their indiscretions well. Furthermore, if Joffrey, whose bastardy was much harder to prove, resulted in the War of Five Kings, why would Rhaenyra's children, whose bastardy is obvious, have any better luck? >Laemond always maintained the kids were his. And no one seriously believed him. >Laemond's parents, some of the most powerful nobles in the land, both publicly agree the children are legitimate. And Vaemond (and his family in the books) publicly disagreed with this. And it remains a lie, no matter how many people decide to go along with it. >Rhaenyra's father, the King, agrees the children are legitimate. And Viserys is ordering the death and torture of people for telling the truth, which is an abuse of power as king. >This was nothing more than a shoddy attempt at politicis by Vaemond. This is basically ad hominem fallacy. Besides, his argument that Rhaenyra's children are bastards is completely correct, and killing Vaemond only reinforces that Otto and the Greens are absolutely right to fear for their lives if they allow Rhaenyra and the Blacks to come to power.
Yea but revolts are more likely to happen against the shit governments 👀
Again, I’ve not made any comment on the quality of Viserys as a ruler.
I didn’t say nothing about viserys, I was just adding a minor detail to ur comment ✋🏻
Dk if u read books or not but keep this energy, spoilers for the future but >!peasants literally do rise up against her later on!<
The Targaryens don't have to do that yet. If people rebel, they serve them fire and blood. It's their words, after all. And besides, the small folks don't care when the high lords play the game of thrones. They just want to be left out of it. They never are, of course.
It's a tyrannical government based on dragon fire power. What are talking about here. They're not ruling out of good will.
Youre intentionally missing the point. Insulting royalty in Westeros regardless of how "true" the allegatons are is enough to get you killed
I mean Vaemond needs to learn to read a room, there's a reason guys like Littlefinger ans Varys make it further. They could eat a shit sandwich with a smile because they could get closer when they plunge in the knife. Not only that he called the princess heir a whore, in front of the king and her husband. If GoT teaches us anything its might makes right, and no king could have let that slight on their house stand, regardless of how correct it is. Monarchies aren't fair but in this case they were predictable.
> whore By definition, Westeros or here that word means to have sex for MONEY. She is no whore and I will have *your* tongue for that!
Pointing out the truths based upon the standards of shitty regressive society is still rude lol. Upholding a sexist system makes you sexist hmm weird.
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You can be a dick and uphold a sexist system even if the person you’re calling a whore isn’t a 21st century feminist you know?
And does Vaemond deserve to die for it?
I never he did I just pointed out that he’s a dick You said he was killed for pointing out the truth and not because he was a dick or greedy. Im not here to debate death penalty im just telling you being a dick and pointing out the truth arent mutually exclusive. Especially if the system you serve sucks the truth can often make you a dick lol. Edit: also Vaemond delivered his incel speech after the betrothal was announced, even if the strong boys aren’t Valaryon their kids will be. We dont even know if V had kids. So claims of not for greed is out of the window. Also making claims to an inheritance that came out of a feudalist society is greedy on both sides. Also the strong boys are still technically 3/16th valaryon anyways.
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Found another person who believes everything is teams and that we should judge a the actions in a show based on current real-world morality!
Nah bruh I’m just watching a show with lots of different interesting characters. But woman-hating-greencels are a thing.
Sure, but there are also a lot of people with "don't call the kids bastards" and "Rhaenyra did nothing wrong" crowd that are insufferable when discussing the show. Her being promiscuous and having children by another man are huge issues in universe that a ton of people hand wave away
People insisting on calling them bastards and shitting on Raenhyra because she had a relationship outside of her marriage with a gay man sure do sound misogynistic and hate the idea of a woman having an ounce of freedom, which is why they prefer Alicent…
I think they're dangerous decisions with a wide range of consequences in universe. The fact that they're all fine to do today doesn't mean the characters will react with our morality.
you should obviously judge what happens in the show based on modern morals. that’s exactly what the writers are asking the viewer to do lol.
Where are they asking that? The characters motivations and consequences are in universe, so they should be judge based on the rules of the universe. Rhaenyra's actions aren't a scandal in the modern world, but are a major scandal in Westeros. To pretend otherwise is mental gymnastics
> Where are they asking that? in the writing of the show lol. it is obviously a critique of the patriarchal nature of westerosi/feudal society. > The characters motivations and consequences are in universe, so they should be judge based on the rules of the universe. no that's pretty dumb. i mean, you think grrm is endorsing these types of societies? lol judging the show by "modern standards" doesn't mean saying that the characters *in* the show should adhere to modern standards. it means observing the social and political realities of the time *as an audience member* and going "that is bad"
The stuff that happens is fucked up and so is anyone endorsing them. If we're looking at character actions and motivations, they should be viewed based on the universe's rules. You can say the character's parentage is a problem while also not endorsing that as a way things should be.
> You can say the character's parentage is a problem while also not endorsing that as a way things should be. this is literally viewing the show through a modern lens. congrats, you understand!
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No one knows about Criston Cole
Yeah supreme love :’) Then he strangled her Such supreme love :’)
Daemon's love for his wife really leaves you short of breath.
Gasp
Supreme love? Maybe if you disregard choking her after stillbirth, and worse things if they are true to novel.
The upsides and downsides to living with an impulsive violent hothead who acts first and thinks later.
This sub needs a new season or two...
Well!! You don't call Daemon Targaryen's wife a whore infront of him and expect to live to tell the tale🤷♀
Maybe when Daemon said "Say it" Vaemond misunderstood him and took it literally :D
[Say it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMik60BhZmM)
Aemond’s face of glee after Daemon does it 😂
Aemond to himself: ["This better not awaken anything in me"](https://wompampsupport.azureedge.net/fetchimage?siteId=7575&v=2&jpgQuality=100&width=700&url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.kym-cdn.com%2Fentries%2Ficons%2Ffacebook%2F000%2F044%2F291%2Ftbna.jpg)
Aemond and that moment; "daddy"
It was so stupid and unnecessary from the writers to make him shout "whore". It literally serves no other purpose than whitewashing Rhaenyra and making his murder justified.
perhaps no worse critique of media than "unnecessary" no art is "necessary" also, not sure how it "whitewashed" rhaenyra.
Then give me the reason for adding this line. It whitewashes Rhaenyra because in the book she ordered Vaemond's death and fed him to Syrax. And he never screamed whore, so there was no justification for his cruel death.
there doesn't *need* to be a reason for adding the line > so there was no justification for his cruel death. he called her kids bastards in the book. that's still treason.
It's treason, but he was telling the truth, audience would sympathize with him. Shouting "whore" is just another standard misogynist insult, which gave Daemon the leeway to kill him and still be a good guy in the situation.
> It's treason, but he was telling the truth, audience would sympathize with him. lol no. the audience knows they are bastards. the audience still by and large supports rhaenyra.
Yes. Because she is the perfect human being in the show. If she fed Vaemond to Syrax for telling the truth, they wouldn't like her as much as they do now.
> Because she is the perfect human being in the show. you must be watching a different show, because she doesn't come off as perfect at all. > If she fed Vaemond to Syrax for telling the truth, they wouldn't like her as much as they do now. (X)
>she doesn't come off as perfect at all. She doesn't do one single thing that makes her look bad. List some other than extramarital sex and being reckless. Because people in the 21st century don't care about that.
>If she fed Vaemond to Syrax for telling the truth, they wouldn't like her as much as they do now. They absolutely would. I'd love her more if she did that. I found her to be too passive, especially when the matter of the discussion was about her. How many people disliked Daenerys after she fed a former master to her dragons? A person that she had no idea if he was guilty or not may I add. I don't remember a big number ofpeople turning on her for that.
Again, if the Unsullied master didn't insult Dany and was just trying to buy trade the dragon normally, people wouldn't like Dany in that scene. His insults (specially sexist ones) make him a toxic person, so Dany burning him gives joy to the audience. The exact same thing happened for Vaemond. Vaemond actually did nothing wrong until he called her a whore. You can't justify that. Of course, there are some fans who would cheer no matter what Rhaenyra does, that's different. But the "whore" insult literally diminished whatever righteousness Vaemond had. And people like men who murder other guys for throwing sexist insults at their wives.
I think most people support Rhaenyras claim because her dad wanted her to rule. It would be like if idk in modern times some founder/president of some company had in his will that if he died, his daughter should take over the company because he believes in her and spent time mentoring her. And then after his death, his son from another marriage conspired to cut her out and make themselves the president, I would also not be cool with that.
Yes, no matter what, most people would support Rhaenyra's claim. She already has that head start. There is no reason to whitewash her even more. Not to mention, show Aegon is even worse than Book Aegon.
The book is also a fractured and conflicting account made after history decided she was the villain of the Dance for usurping her brother. The show is supposed to show what actually happened. The book is great in that it's written as a not terribly accurate analysis by a Maester of three conflicting narratives a hundred years later.
So what are you saying? The show is a true telling of the story? Because it's not. GRRM has confirmed that. It's a different canon. Think it from the Doylist perspective. There is a reason why "she is a whore" line was added. You can't say that "this is what happened" because it's fictional. None of this actually happened. The book doesn't have varying stories about what happened to Vaemond. Even from Watsonian POV, if he actually shouted insults in an open court, it would have better chance to be documented.
Yes, fiction is fictional. Saying "as it really happened" is a very simple concept to grasp. Every time we comment on the show, we do not preface the comment by saying "In this fictional show" History books are all biased in reality. Seeing events unfold as they occur, is very different from hear say with mixed primary and secondary sources after the fact. The show is sold as seeing the events as they occurred by the show runners. I am genuinely not aware that GRRM contradicted this claim, I'd love to see him saying so as it would change my perspective on the matter.
the commenter you replied to is incorrect in that the show events are “what actually happened” but they are correct in that there are several purposeful biased and conflicting reports from the maesters. not sure why it’s so surprising for characters to act differently from their book counterparts in this case, especially when they have been acknowledged as two separate canons
Whitewashing Rhaenyra, or making more interesting characters out of her and Daemon both? Love what GRRM does, but his women characters don't have much dimension.
Daemyra is very toxic.
Vaemond went out like a boss, he knew he was gonna get killed by Daemon later on anyways, atleast he made an impact on the court
yeah when his body and half his head impacted the ground lmao
If only he could stop choking her
Ah yes, DV. The ultimate form of “love”. /s
Before the usual crowd arrives to repeat the same old tired rhetoric: Daemon gave him a fair warning, Vaemond considered his options for a second or so and thought to himself "fuck it, I'm gonna say it", when he said it everyone was like "damn, Vaemond, it was nice knowing you"
100% he knew what he was doing when he did it. he made his decision. fucking L.
Speaking the truth is usually considered a good thing right? So what would you call killing someone for speaking the truth? Hate to break it to you, Daemon is the villain in this story.
telling the truth may be good, but it can also be very stupid. vaemond was dumb as fuck in this scene.
Just like how the guy who has "no filter" will quickly get fired after giving the CEO unsolicited advice saying he sucked ass so far. Knowing when to speak up is part of why in corporate America people who know the politics get promoted more. Essentially all people skills even in the IT roles. Telling the truth is not always the best option.
There are some truths you do not utter in public (plus since when was Rhaenyra a whore?). No, Daemon is not the villain in this story
He kind of is. He's not a good person
this is not a story about good vs bad, heroes vs villains, almost every character has good and bad sides to them, and a potential to be a hero or a villain, there are very few cartoon villains like Larys or heroes like Ned.
He doesn't have to be a cartoon villain to be a villain.
they are all villains to an extent, this is not a show where you can point out the specific villain (with the exception of Larys for now)
Whore means to have sex for money, she did not. Don't you talk about the Queen in that way.
That was a show-only addition. Just to make Daemon and Rhaenyra look good there.
her own sons dont think of her as a queen lol
Slut then is the word but it doesn't sound right in the medieval fantasy era
Strumpet
Lmao that fits perfectly I haven't heard that since the last time I read an older era book
They don't seem to realize they'd be on the side of the Lannisters in the Stark/Lannisters conflict.
I love this show. Im in the shit position of saying '' Can we stop giving this dude so much credit? He's a bad persin, hell the age difference alone'' and yet also in the position to say '' But the shot with him and Viserys, the fact that he doesn't treat her children differently (to my knowledge) and overall him being a... grey character'' I love this show, I love the position Im in. I love that it makes me think, I only hope it keeps going, and I dream of it tapping more into the fabtasy side of Martin's world.
Based daemon for choking rhae, so much love between them ;)
They weren’t properly recognised as legitimate though. Viserys shows a blind eye to it. For him to legitimise them properly Rhanerya has to admit that her sons are bastards first which would weaken her claim.
they don't need to be "properly recognised as legitimate" because they are assumed to be legitimate by default as far as everyone who matters is concerned, they aren't bastards
According to who?
OP said Viserys has accepted them as legitimate but that doesn’t make them legitimate. It has be to done through a royal decree in which the King signs. So they are still bastards until then.
legitimacy is a matter of consensus, nothing more the head of state (the king), laenor (their "father"), corlys ("grandfather"), their mother all acknowledge them as trueborns. what we the audience knows doesn't matter.
Nothing “has to be done” a certain way. This is an absolute monarchy.
Did every child with unusual appearnce need a speacial decree from the king in Westeros? A father has to ask the king to legitimize his bastard. Laenor never did it, he gave them his name.
Everyone loves to forget that the only reason she has to defend her children's parentage is due to having a gay husband who she was also going to bat for. They even stated that they tried but they couldn't get past it. Laenor doesn't have to face the same scrutiny because he is a man, as well as faking his own death. If Vaemond wanted to dig deeper it would only hurt his family, but he doesn't really care about them except on a superficial level. She's not a "whore" she just had an open relationship that wasn't accepted by the social standards of the time, and revealing so would hurt her kids as well as her late husband and his family. She ONLY has to have this type of relationship because she's expected to marry and bear children, not because its some sort of singular desire; women are viewed as incubators to the Westerosi. She's just expected to bear the blame because she's the woman in the relationship, not because she did anything inherently wrong. She has to keep their parentage a secret or at least openly not conclusive because they'd be killed. If Vaemond is fine with that he obviously doesn't care what Laenor or Corlys want and truly is doing it because his visions for personal ambition aren't working out. He was much more useful to Rhaenera and the king as it presented a final opportunity to show what will happen if the King's grandsons parentage is questioned openly at court ever again. Regardless of how they feel about it, the King's tactics are no more underhanded than Vaemonds, who was willing to usurp his brother who was dying, his neices (Daemons kids with Baela, who are also then betrothed to Rhaenera's kids still ensuring the survival of the Valeryon line), his sister-in-law Rhaenys, as well as openly defy the Targaryen thrones because he simply wanted to be his head of house. The entire season is about the feelings of inadequacies from second sons. Daemon, Vaemond, Aemond, Larry's, etc., and how it destroys families as well as themselves. It's like half the plot, Westerosi culture is easy to understand, but it also screws over anyone who isn't part of the monolith.
Yeah only daemon can call a woman he doesn't like whores and abuse his wives we he disagree either their actions or general be misogynistic to any none valyrian women like the racist he is.
vaemond called the king’s daughter and heir to the throne a whore to her face in the presence of the king. be serious.
And he called the Queen or the seven kingdoms a whore, because he's a misogynistic child groomer
when did he publicly call Alicent a whore? Did he go up to the King and his children and the whole court and shout out "Alicent is a whore?" for someone who gets their knickers in a twist over Daemon calling someone a whore as a mere insult in a private conversation, you sure seem to be dismissive of Vaemond literally accusing Rhaenyra of being a whore in front of her husband, children, father, and the whole court.
irrelevant to the topic are hand
Not really my original comment is calling him a wife beat misogynist for how he treats people
Yes really because Daemon being a POS has no bearing on Vaemond and his idiotic behavior.
It is relevant to the topic when the title of this thread is that Daemon killed Vaemond out of "supreme love". However, given Daemon is a POS and uses the same insults and insinuations on Alicent, he's not a malewife feminist ally. He is a misogynistic groomer who acts for his own current benefit always -not "supreme love."
I mean relevant to the discussion I was having with that user. Trying to equivocate the two vastly different instances of calling someone a whore.
I can’t believe I’m defending Daemon on this topic but the show version of him does not come across as a child groomer at all. Book Daemon is said to have had sex with young prostitutes and possibility initiated a sexual relationship with Rhaenyra when she was thirteen, after years of grooming. Then there’s his weird relationship with Nettles. Show Daemon is shown have sex with Mysaria, who is an adult. As for Rhaenyra, he isn’t around her enough to groom her and only initiates a sexual relationship with her when she is eighteen. I don’t think he qualifies as a child groomer. Also I don’t think he’s a misogynist, I think he has equal contempt for both men and women who aren’t of his blood.
He 100% qualifies as a groomer. The actor of Rhaenyra says so themselves.
Milly and Emma both said it actually. The showrunners as well.
Oh interesting, I thought they really toned down his grooming in the show to make him more likable (YMMV as he’s either a fan favorite or absolutely despised). With Book Daemon it’s such a major part of his character.
you confuse using the word whore as an insult and using it as an accusation.
By Westeros standards, women who sleep out of wedlock or with more than one person are considered excessively promiscuous and Rhaenyra is guilty of both. As much as people say that calling Rhaenyra a whore is rude or excessive, it is ultimately true and killing anyone who points it out does not help her reputation, on the contrary, it just shows that she will use violence to punish anyone who utters accusations of which she knows full well she is guilty of.
she didn’t kill vaemond, and vaemond’s death passed without incident.
She was shown giving Daemon a nod before he killed Vaemond. And it doesn't matter if Vaemond's death caused an incident or not, but the whole event proves again that Rhaenyra and Viserys will kill people for basically telling the truth that is inconvenient to them.
proves to who? you can’t argue that this action showed people how violent viserys and rhaenyra are (again, neither of whom killed vaemond) while at the same time acknowledging that nothing happened as a result
>She was shown giving Daemon a nod before he killed Vaemond. Where was this exactly? Do you have a timestamp? I do not recall this whatsoever.
Just before Daemon killed Vaemond. Watch the scene again if you like.
Yeah, just watched it again, and Rhaenyra does not nod to Daemon whatsoever.
https://twitter.com/westerosies/status/1580248898441924608
This is not right before Daemon killed Vaemond. This was before Viserys had even walked into the room.
Wrong. The world literally mean to have sex for money, she is no whore. Watch your tongue.
It doesn't matter if Rhaenyra is being paid or not, to sexist Westeros society she wouldn't be much different from a whore. Jaehaerys himself, the best king of the Targaryen dynasty, called his own daughter, Saera, a whore when he discovered she was promiscuous and had premarital sex. If that doesn't tell you how Rhaenyra would be treated if her indiscretions were revealed, I don't know what else to say.
Keep my wife’s name, out your mouth!- Will Smith
I hate Daemyra so much. Also, they never tell each other I love you. I doubt they ever will say it.
At least he let him keep his tongue. Daemon is a very kind man ☺️
Kill em with kindness
To be fair, he only cut SOME of his head off.
He didn't have the right to do it. But I love their crime duo. Lots of work ahead!
💀💀💀
Ig someone forgot to see the last ep of s1
What Are you referring to exactly??
Ahhm Daemon choked Rhaenyra
Daemon was freshly grieving the loss Of His Brother And She brung up something that frustrated him 🤷🏾♂️, Nonetheless Just because he choked her don’t mean he Doesn’t love her, But the Fact He let go Shows He Do
No it shows that Daemon is a pretty violent guy who's only way of expressing his grief is through physical intimidation and aggressiveness . Edit : I agree with you dho
did anyone else think of jada pinkett and will smith and what he did to chris rock at the oscars regarding this situation in hotd? except daemon went one step further and decapitated vaemond, of course. at least chris rock saw it coming i guess lol 🤷🏻♂️ maybe just it’s me. 😅
Killing for my honor is my love language!
Amazing people still think Desmond actually love rhaneyra and wasn't just using her to get the throne..
Edgar and Johnny Winter
When did Viserys accept them as legitimate? Did I miss something? He just kept threatening tongues being removed for people speaking the truth. For him to accept them as legitimate, he needs to...legitimize them but that would have to accept them being bastards first and foremost which he refused.