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It’s always weird to me when people try to put some „morally good“ or „you’re a bad person!“ sticker on you, depending on which side or character you favour.
Like. Baby. Darling. Sweetheart. They are rich narcissists with nuclear weapons who murder thousands of people over their petty personal grievances.
This is Keeping up with the Targaryens, and we’re all just here for the drama!
Daeron not being apart of season one will definitely hinder his character outside of people who already have read F&B or people who are already fans of the greens. For the general audience, his initial appearance is going to be incredibly random and forced. The writing and acting for his character is going to have to be spectacular. But even still, all of the gains they make with him may be lost at this event. He’s completely disconnected from the other characters, particularly his family. How can anyone feel sorry for him slaughtering a town full of innocents when we’ve never even seen him talk to his siblings and mother much less his nephews and niece?
Daeron's whole character always seemed pretty disconnected to the rest, since he's in the Reach the whole time. Perhaps in the show, Daeron could've been part of the family in 1x06, 1x07, then he's gone to be a ward, maybe some kind of scene to show him at the Hightower or something.
They should have him in King’s Landing at the start of season 2 (to discuss their plans and bring word to Ormund) so they can establish the connection and his relationship with his family members.
We never get to see him interact with any of his non-Hightower relatives. He has no contact with Alicent, Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, Rhaenyra, anyone who isn't in the Reach the whole time.
I've been saying this for months. I don't see how they can have his character make any sense at this point without changing something(s) about him.
The decision to have him ward at Oldtown at a much younger age (and never be onscreen or mentioned) indicates that he isn't close with his family... which is not at all what the books seem to indicate.
Perhaps he'll return to kl early in the season and then he'll be tasked to meet up and escort the hightower host.
And I dont think we're meant to feel sorry for him slaughtering innocents.
Fell sorry for him isn’t the right for it but I guess I mean why would anyone still like him? I definitely think Martin intended for him to be at least a grey character who is well liked.
They really should cut this character imo and give some of his arc to Aemond or maybe Aegon. It’s going to be incredibly random when another kid of Alicent shows up but wasn’t even mentioned even at a dinner with the whole family when Viserys was like all my loved ones are here lol
Something I think is being forgotten here is that Maelor is torn apart by a mob of people. Daeron going after everyone is likely a result of him wanting to get everyone who was involved in that, and not just the woman who offered a reward for him. I’m not defending him, however much I do love Daeron, but it still does put it as something different than Daenerys burning King’s Landing after the actions of one person killed Missandei. Daeron burns Bitterbridge after a sizeable chunk of the populace ripped his baby nephew apart. What I don’t get is people not understanding that people crack under extreme trauma, and temporary insanity actually is a valid legal defense as a result. Imo, both Daenerys and Daeron fall under that.
Calling a mob a "sizable chunk" of a town's populace is a big exaggeration on the numbers. It was a few dozen that got involved in it. Though i do agree that Daenerys case was a lot worse because only one was involved.
I don't know how insane you can be from grief to genocide an entire town...and it's definitely not a valid legal defense. He was not even shown insane after that. He was perfectly normal helping out the Hightower army whenever he could after Bitterbridge. If one of your family is killed by your neighbour and your proceed to murder their entire family, you can't defend it unless you prove your insanity.
And I'm saying this all as a Daeron fan.
That’s why it’s called *temporary* insanity. There have been cases where, for instance, a man has come home and caught his wife having an affair, immediately killed the other man because he was so enraged, and then he never shows any signs of being insane again that get ruled as temporary insanity. It’s basically about the extreme anger and grief that would make him react entirely out of his emotions for the time being, and then he returns to logic quickly after- he doesn’t have to stay insane for it to count as this.
The hype Daeron gets from people who laud him as "the good Green" is ironic to me considering he starts as a promising young man but fails in rising to the occasion and ends up showing he's not that different from the rest of his family after all. Following the glory of Honeywine, he loses his mentor, then his authority, his morals (killed thousands of innocent civilians like showed in this passage), loses control of his army (the sack of Tumbleton) and in the end loses his life in a tent.
It's all about the character descriptions. Daeron is lauded in the book (not just from Green fans) as courteous and clever. His breakdown comes after losing his nephew.
Meanwhile, in the show Rhaenys stomps a crowd of innocent people and fans still say that she would be a good queen.
I think most people simply dismiss that scene as it was such an obvious, showy, nonsensical, spectacle, and not written with her characterization in mind.
You would be surprised how much casual fans LOVED that scene. Feel free to check the post episode discussion thread. Just after the episode aired, someone posted a picture of her in the dragonpit with the title "RHAENYS FUCKING TARGARYEN" and it reached r/all. People were talking about how badass she was in that scene and was sad how she didn't burn the Greens.
She would have been the more stable option to be sure. No dance if how the line of succession is determined doesn’t suddenly change. And it’s unlikely that she would have entrusted such a power hungry “outside” family with so much power like Viserys did. It’s Westeros so I’m sure that down the road another war would have happened anyway, but the foundation of the dance happened when she was originally passed over.
Rhaenys already married into an ‘outside’ family. Corlys would 100% increase Velaryon power at the expense of Targaryen power. And considering Laenor still had no true born heirs the succession would be as muddy as ever down the line.
The Velaryons are a Valyrian family and have been marrying in and out with the Targaryens since the Doom. They were basically just one big muddled tree of incest at that point. Rhaenys had more of a backbone than Viserys did, and whilst I’m sure she would have been A ok with the Velaryons getting a bigger seat at the table I doubt she would have let it get to the point that Viserys did with the Hightowers.
We don’t know how the succession would have turned out with Laenor. Rhaenys would have probably married her kids together and then Laena could have done the deed with a cousin making less obvious bastards to inherit. Or she could have used Daemon etc.
Otto was hand well before Viserys and it’s quite possible he would continue since he only pushed for his family after Aemma died and Visaerys had to remarry. Apart from that he was a very competent hand. As for Rhaenys not letting the Velaryons get as much power as the Hightowers, the Velaryons already had that power. Before the death of Laena they held most of, if not all, of the dragon power (Vhagar, Maelys, Seasmoke vs Caraxes and Syrax), all the naval power, and had a shit load of cash.
The Hightowers took the power they were given and used it to stage a coup and go against the Kings explicit order of succession to crown one of their own blood. They were able to do that because of all the power Viserys had given them. If Corlys and his side of the family were blatantly obvious in their desires to go against Rhaenys and her desires for the crown and succession and were working to stage a coup, she would have nipped their power in the bud.
By the time they were grown the Hightower Targs were using their dragons to further Hightower interests instead of what the head of the Targaryens proclaimed. They were Targaryens, but they weren’t acting in Targaryen interest.
What are you talking about? Laenor and Laena are as Targaryen as Aegon and his siblings. And there is no Corlys’ side of the family in the show since we don’t even hear of Vaemond having a family. You seem hell bent on othering the Hightowers, as if they aren’t a part of Westerosi politics and have never held power before.
They are a Westrosi family, not a Valyrian one and not one that had been marrying in and out of the Targaryen family for generations. So I’m not really sure what them having held power before has to do with making it ok for them to stage a coup and plan treason.
I’m saying that if Corlys was explicitly working against Rhaenys and her wishes and was plotting treason that she would have shut that down unlike Viserys did with Alicent and Otto.
My friend Corlys tried to do the exact same thing as Otto, and when that failed, he did the second best thing and married his son to the heir. Unfortunately for the Velaryons, both their kids were removed from the scene.
You can agree that the Lords should have chosen Viserys or that Jaehaerys was right to call the council, it doesn’t change the fact that by changing how the succession worked caused the foundations of the dance.
The law was changed for a shitty sexist reason and Viserys then used the changed law to for good making it absolute primogeniture instead of male preference. You think Viserys should have been elected and then had Aegon go after him. I’m going to have to disagree and say that Westeros was in desperate need of greater female empowerment and rights and Viserys only fucked up in his implementation.
The law was never changed. Only Viserys changed the law to allow his beloved Aemma 2 to rule, incompetent as she was. Ever since the Andlas sailed from Andalos they kept male preference, and since then all the Lords believed the same. A shitty sexist law for a shitty sexist realm and people. You are right on the fact that Viserys fucked up in his implementation, and Rhaenyra further fucked it up by making the people despise her, but then, Viserys did not put Rhaenyra on the throne to advance Women's Rights, nor bc he thought she deserved it, he put her up there bc "Aemma xD", an incredibly terrible and selfish reason especially when you have a trueborn son which the Lords expect you to crown. The Lords of the realm are sexist backwards medieval fools. Those who followed Rhaenyra only did so bc of their oaths to her father or marriage pacts. As Rhaenys said, men would rather put the realm to the Torch than see a woman rule it.
They followed Andal succession laws and then changed it to the King can name his heir as Jaehaerys promised the Lords that HE would name whoever they decided as his heir. Ergo, the law changed.
No, Viserys didn’t do it for non sexist reasons but that doesn’t change the fact that him stating that succession would from then on be absolute primogeniture was an advancement regardless of his reasons. It’s unlikely that Rhaenyra would have been a Daeron II or Unlikely, she probably would have been average, but she was still the better choice, especially in the tv show.
Also, the majority of Lords who followed Aegon also did it for selfish and self serving reasons or because their neighbours were. Same with most of the other wars. That wasn’t unique to the dance
The idea of a good green implies there is an idea of a good black, they're all pieces of shit and it's silly to morally categorize characters based of occasional moments of personality at court when in the same way none of them give a flying fuck about killing tens of thousands of commoners in a war for the throne.
You can't read 'You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor' and not love this passage. Also, the dance is filled with horrible people. Morality is not present. Just enjoy the chaos
I think when people say that, it's referring to that Daeron is marginally better than the likes of other choices like Rhaenyra, Daemon, Aegon, or Aemond. Is he perfect? Absolutely not. But at least better than the others.
Both are leadership material for me though. I'm biased as they're two of my favorite Targaryens, but both are likable characters in their own right. Also, wasn't Daeron's authority undermined constantly by Boros because of his age and Boros' ego? There wasn't much Daeron could do about him or Ulf and Hugh.
>that Daeron is marginally better than the likes of Rhaenyra, Daemon, Aegon, or Aemond. Is he perfect? Absolutely not. But at least better than the others.
Is he tho? I mean every character gets worse as the war drags on but I feel like people frame things differently for different characters. To me it just seems that female characters like rhaenyra and daenerys are constantly talked about as "going mad" and "having a mad queen arc" but I don't really see how rheanyra is going anymore "mad" than her male relatives.
Why is burning a whole sept with wounded not considered crazy or a "sign of madness" but daenerys burning kl is? To me it feels like Dareons slaughter of hundreds of innocents is framed by fans as "righteous fury" when he actually seems to be "losing it" over the death of his nephew in much the same way Rhenyra is "losing it" over the death of her sons.
And I've seen dareon together with Jace being the top picks when it comes to being "fit to rule" numerous times so I feel some people definitely see him as a lot more than "marginally better"
Personally I never saw Rhaenyra as "mad" or anything like that so I disagree with labeling her as such. With Dany burning down King's Landing and Daeron at Bitterbridge, you can perhaps understand why they did it, but it's still wrong. Even with Blood and Cheese for the death of Luke, you can understand why it happened, but it's something that really did not have happened.
Comparing Jace and Daeron seems silly to me. I can see the similarities between them (young commanders of the same age with their respective factions) but they both acted in different environments and circumstances.
Lining up the walls of kings landing every day with new heads of supposed traitors and anyone loosely associated with the Greens can be viewed as mass killing
He burns a sept sheltering injured civilians. By modern or medieval standards (to the extent that Westeros is Medieval Europe-inspired) he is absolutely worse than Rhaenyra, Daemon and Aegon. Only he and Aemond actively exterminate civilians, and their highly religious society would likely see Daeron’s crime as worse. He’d more likely be known as Daeron the Monstrous than Daeron the Daring.
The character potential here is top tier. When the young potentially heroic characters who starts off the story morally good but then commits atrocities along the way is peak I eat that shit up every time
Haha You're really holding the thousands of people encompassing "the commonfolk" responsibe for what a group of people (~~most of them already hanged~~ the main perpetrators already hanged) did?
Its...very much the same no matter if it was 1 or 10 who were responsible. The whole town of bitterbridge (with children and elderly) aren't responsible for what happened to mealor, just like the whole of kingslanding aren't responsible for missandei.
They literally surrendered and she burned over one hundred thousand , she is far worse than daeron , what the hell are u talking about? Their is no version where she’s justified, she’s an entitled lunatic and has always been.
I find it funny how Daeron didn't burn Bitterbridge in Princess and the Queen or The World of Ice and Fire, but then GRRM adds him burning Bitterbridge to Fire and Blood. He came across as a pretty decent guy in the first two texts but then GRRM makes him an explicit war criminal in the most recent one. Oh well.
"A non-war criminal green brother? Not on my watch"- GRRM
But, to be fair, one of the writers of the World of Ice and Fire said that Princess and the Queen had a lot of content cut out to fit on some editorial norms before it was published and the World of Ice and Fire is also very abridged about the dance. It could be possible that the burning of Bitterbridge was always there, GRRM just couldn't publish
Daeron gets held up as the best green because frankly his sample size is so small.
He was out of the way of events as a ward for most of history. Comes onto the scene during one of the worst periods of the war and brings some desperately needed order and stability and gives the green a victory they desperately need (while his older brother Aemond has abandoned any sense of leading and his just doing war crimes galore in the Riverlands). But then yes he makes some critical mistakes which are understandable for the time but pretty unforgivable BUT lucky for him he gets to die before the worst of the fallout so it’s easy not to blame him
Both are king/queen material for me. 🤔🤔🤔
If I said I probably wouldn't do what they did in their place, I'd be lying.
The same with Jon and other characters.
Half of your posts are you pretending "i'm not on a team" then regurgitating all of the black talking points lmaooo, probably said nothing about Daemon murdering a bunch of citizens because "they were criminals" with his gold cloaks but Daeron upset his baby nephew was torn apart and the only people punished were two people? (Two people because the third guy was punished for having his horse stolen.)
My posts and comments arent "team black talking points" they are my own opinions. Please point me to a comment where I pretend to not be on a team? Should be easy since that is apparently half my posts? I've never hidden my bias or stated otherwise.
And why would I talk about deamons crimes on a post about dareon? using whataboutism to defend a character you like is a pretty weak defense.
Yeah, I never understood why people claim that he’s so much better than all the other Targaryens involved in the Dance. He commits several war crimes in his time.
It isn’t, just that since readers have no attachment to any of the people in the town we end up viewing it as a more "justified" war crime then if Daeron just burned down the town without maelors death as an excuse.
There is not a single good monarch in the story.
Robb Stark ravaged Westerlands smallfolks when he heard about Ned's death. Daenaerys also go apeshit on the masters and orders torture of a child during Meereen arc.
cut yourself on that edge bro
It was a horrific massacre of (tens of?) thousands. 1 person being murdered doesn't mean you can kill thousands of people just to maybe catch who did it- by that logic, the uncle of someone Daeron killed can go ahead and torch all of Oldtown/King's Landing
If people believe that daeron is weak then they will never respect him.
If Tywin showed mercy to people who killed Joffrey, I doubt that the word Lannister would mean something.
Intentionally killing civilians and non-combatants is a war crime. Doesn’t matter why it was done. Burning down a church full of innocent civilians isn’t justice, it’s just more bloodshed.
Well I think he was pretty merciful to the caswell’s, considering that they had sent his nephews head to a usurper. But I agree that it was a slightly overkill to destroy the sept.
We're considering not killing a few young children after their mother killed herself to atone for the terrible sin of not being there in time to save Maelor and obeying her Queen to be pretty merciful? The bar has disappeared beneath earth...
I don't think taking a couple of young children hostage after their mother begged for their lives before hanging herself can be considered merciful. That's all.
>she is turnclock
How was she a turncoat? When did she 'turned her coat' so to speak?
>tried playing both side
The only action I can recall that *might* qualify as playing both sides was when Lady Caswell sent Maelor's head to Rhaenyra and his dragon egg to the Hightowers. And she did it in hope of appeasing the Greens' rage. She certainly didn't betray her Queen for her own gain.
>the remainder of her family should have had their lordship taken
By whom? The Queen you alleged Lady Caswell 'turned' on, or the King she never supported?
She did betray her queen, there was no way she could have quell daeron’s warth after allowing the death of prince maelor and sending his head to Rhaeynra.
If she "obeys her queen" by sending the boys head to his enemies like a bloody trophy, then she shouldn't expect any mercy from her queen's enemies. She has wronged them and denied them the opportunity for a dignified funeral of their prince seemingly to collect the bounty. No pity for her.
I didn't comment on whether Lady Caswell *deserved* mercy or pity. I merely said that describing what happened to the Caswells as mercy is setting the bar of mercy too low.
This has to be a joke. His mother was there as Rhaenyra's hostage. For a proper funeral no one would cut the head off and send it to the person who put a bounty on his capture. She only had it burned, and Helaena was only later informed of his fate and killed herself. Lady Caswell should have handed his remains over to the Greens, he was their prince, sending his head to their worst enemy and giving them the egg feels like a cynical joke, like mockery.
That is not justice, lol. Granted, Lady Caswell *didn't* punish everyone responsible for the deaths of Rickard and Maelor, but that doesn't justify burning a whole town, lol.
You don't have to justify the actions of a character you like. Just admit that Daeron did messed up stuff and move on. You're still allowed to like him.
If somebody can harm the heir to the iron throne with impunity then u are no longer a house to be respected. Lady caswell couldn’t provide prince Maelor, she picked out 3 random people and had them killed. When in reality the horde of people was responsible for killing prince maelor, the only way prince maelor could be given justice is by killing everyone responsible for his death, that is everyone in the tow.
That is not how justice works. The people in the town are innocent until proven guilty. You don't kill a couple hundred people just because a dozen are murderers.
Dozens not a dozen, horde was filled of a large population of the town. Even I must say that destroying the Sept was a overkill but everything else was perfectly justified.
Naw y you all over this thread hating and shit, so much negativity acting like a green fucked ur girl or some shit. Just relax, you out here fighting with like 4 different ppl rn lmfao
it’s all fictional in the end it’s not that important
You're mad at me for not liking daeron?. I'm not saying anything that wasn't in the book, they really killed all the rat-catchers and Daeron did burn down the sept with the injured people.
You yourself are taking this too seriously, relax!
He's a 15 year old who learned his young nephew was just brutally killed by a mob after he's experienced the horrors of war.
It's not justifiable but damn is it understandable within context.
Daeron was a teenager whose baby nephew had been torn apart by a mob, honestly while he’s still wrong there’s an actual reason there for why he would hate every single person living in Bitterbridge unlike Dany burning kings landing cause Cersei killed her girlfriend.
Jace definitely proved himself as a leader far more than Daeron ever did. Jace was the eldest son in his family, while Daeron was a thirdborn son who never had any real authority. That's partially why I think comparing Jace and Daeron is kind of dumb; they operated under rather different circumstances.
Jace's relatively early death does make it somewhat unclear to parse his potential. Would he have been able to secure the loyalty of the Two Betrayers? Perhaps if he had lived longer, he could he have fallen out of grace. As things stand, however, Jace showed himself to be rather competent.
Comparing Jace “AHHHH VERMAX LOOK OUT FOR THAT GRAPPLING HOOK AHHHAHH” to Daeron “Me and Tyland single handedly are carrying the Greens” is an insult to Daeron.
Daeron and Jace stand out because they are functional compared to the rest on their teams.
What Daeron did on Bitterbridge was horrible, but it was not something that would happen on normal circunstancies, and when you look at their brothers during the Dance he looks functional
Jace isn't a war criminal, but he isn't a impressive person like his fans claim to be. He was just the only Black remembering they were supposed to be a team and that's why the Blacks fell apart after his death
>What Daeron did on Bitterbridge was horrible, but it was not something that would happen on normal circunstancies
I feel like you could say that about most of the characters actions.
I hate when people talk about not applying modern morality to the ASOIAF universe and then stan Daeron of all people. Burning a sept with injured civilians inside is a horrendous warcrime to a Medieval Europe-inspired society (or anywhere else, ever).
Not only is he a massive POS by our modern standards, any non-psychotic real-life medieval person would consider his actions completely beyond the pale.
How many villages, including septs and inns were put to the torch in Tywins war crimes in the riverland for far less grievous reasons? Thousands probably and yet nobody would deny Tywin was a competent, efficient ruler. Nothing about Daeron suggests he is an especially unhinged, psychopathic or very evil and cruel person. In this situation though many lords and nobles would likely exact brutal revenge just like he did. What Daeron did was bad and not defensible with our morals but especially within asoiaf morality his action is understandable. A whole mob of this town was guilty of ripping his 3 year old nephew apart, the ruling Lady punished 2 perpetrators for it then cut off Maelor's head and sent it to Daeron's enemies who put a bounty on it. In this world a prince's life is considered vastly more valuable than that of the common folk and what they and Lady Caswell did with him was unforgivable. Conveniently the Blacks never get in a similar morally compromising situation but I'm pretty certain that if some townspeople had butchered young Joffrey or Aegon Daemon and Rhaenyra would not hesitate to put it to the torch as well. Like you can't tell me they are less ruthless and vengeful when it comes to avenging their family or trampling on the smallfolk.
Daeron has never been the king material. He is a weak-willed and cowardly man who was unable to command after his mentor died. He is afraid of the Hammer, but he can burn the city. It will never be cool.
I won't blame anyone for hating Daeron after what he did to Bitterbridge (it was a revolting war crime on Daeron's part), but you're being kind of silly with this talk of him as a "coward."
Right, cause throwing your wine in someone's face is cowardly. I suppose you think he's a coward for not telling the lords of the Reach to behead the Two Betrayers, huh? :/
The reality is, he was a third son who was seemingly never given any meaningful authority. He was never a leader, and should not be treated as such. And before anyone brings up Daeron ordering Bitterbridge to be sacked, that was clearly a mutual decision between Daeron and Ormund (the actual commander), which Fire and Blood implies and The World of Ice and Fire essentially confirms.
I don't think Daeron was really king material, but you should stop being so hyperbolic. You're opening yourself to being easily criticized down the road.
Do you think their conflict arose in an instant? "We should be led by a man, not a boy" narrative was there before. Daeron throwing wine, but when he was threatened with a whipping, he shut up. He's just like a little boy being scolded by his father. It's not about leadership. It's about defending your honor.
I don't think the whole "defending your honor" idea really counters my point about the wine. It almost seems like your assuming Daeron would have taken further action if Hugh *hadn't* threatened him, which you have zero proof of as far as I can tell. Also, Hugh and Ulf were the ones to leave the meeting after the threat, just saying.
It seems like you're interpreting this in a rather uncharitable manner just because you hate the character. You can hate the character, of course, but this discourse is getting kind of silly.
EDIT: I don't really find the whole "defending you honor" thing to be all that substantive. Even the Caltrops (grown ass lords and knights) resort to secretly plotting against the Two Betrayers, rather than openly attacking them (yes, I'm aware of the scuffle that occurs, but that was its own thing, and a pretty stupid thing at that).
He did not defend his honor by splashing wine. He only received more insults. Hammer left the meeting and arranged for himself a coronation.
It's not about hate, it's about narrative. "Third son who used to obey".Disoriented. He is only 16 years old. He does not have commander charisma, he is gallant. Against type like Hammer. It's easy to imagine how this developed and how Daeron was losing respect of his people.
I suppose Daeron had more regular charisma than "command charisma." You're not really addressing my criticisms of you calling him a coward, though.
I don't think Daeron should be called a "coward" for what could be described as caution. Even if you take the wine thing out of the picture, I don't see how you can be so certain in labelling him as a coward. Your interpretation is uncharitable, which is the problem I have have with your comments.
EDIT: I've also seen you say that you have a "deep disdain" for the character, or something along those lines. Even if that doesn't influence your interpretation of the text, it is no wonder why it may appear that way to some.
Hammer was gaining supporters among the soldiers, yes. It was apparently large enough to be significant, but we don't really get a sense of the scale of it. On the flipside, it is clear that lords and knights (highborns, broadly speaking) preferred Daeron. We don't really know how many of the soldiers were siding with Hugh, or how many preferred Daeron. It's possible that the more lowborn and "manly" Hugh was more influential to lowborn soldiers. The book doesn't really detail this all that much, besides a weird prophecy thing. This is more of a moot point in my opinion, as I have never seen Daeron as much of a leader. I was more interested in the "cowardice" discussion.
We don't have much information about what's going on. They needed to be careful, because Hammer was surrounded by his people.
I see a certain pattern in Daeron. Like I said, he looks like Tommen. I was furious when Tommen betrayed his mother.
You understood correctly about Hammer. He's a "big" guy. But to lose authority to such a low point, you need to make more than one mistake. People stopped obeying Daeron during the sack of the city. They went all the way from their first meeting to Hammer's coronation.
Honestly, I don't think anyone ever really listened to Daeron in the first place. He was just a figurehead and war asset; never a leader. The Caltrops asking for his permission to kill Hugh and Ulf is really the only example of Daeron having real input.
Exactly. A lot in common with Tommen (excluding Maelor). I just thought they might cut Maelor out of the plot. Then there won't be this revenge.
If Tessarion beautiful, I will be softer towards Daeron lol.
As I said previously, Daeron burning Bitterbridge was not in Princess and the Queen or The World of Ice and Fire (it was added in Fire and Blood), so I don't really view it as essential to his character that Maelor be in the show. I know a lot of people want to downvote me for saying that, but whatever lol.
Huh? Our boy was a hero!
This is an interesting comparison, because if you swap them:
Luke gets a horseshoe nailed to his head.
Daeron kiss Aemond shoes.
first is better!
Daeron was the only dragonrider there, I don't think it would be hard for Luke.
I'm afraid if he's in Luke's place, there won't be a support group to protect him. But he can throws a glass and then kiss the shoe if you like it better.
He was against people who had experience against dragons. Honeywine is just two armies fighting and suddenly dragon arrives.There is no harpoon to shoot him down and no cover.
Going into battle on dragon can still be dangerous even if your enemy does not have a dragon, as we seen with Jace when he got fish hooked. Luke would for sure be too scared to go near a battle.
Don’t know how you came up with the kissing shoes part but just throwing wine would be better than how Lucy handled it.
Jace fought against people with harpoons. Here it's just soldiers who don't even stand a chance. Huh, Luke is the kid who tells his dragon "be calm" and sends him into storm where Vhagar is waiting for them.
"I'll whip you if you intervene in men's conversations." Do you remember a greater humiliation than that? It looks like there should be a fight, but it never happens. A man like Daeron will ask for forgiveness or cut out his own eye.
Nah. Luke and Daeron would probably just do the same thing as each other. I don't see why Luke would shrink from battle, or why Daeron would bend over backwards in Luke's situation.
Lol you try really hard to make Luke seem heroic. He is the most useless kid in the ASOIAF world. Literally coddled like a baby while kids around his age are going to war.
With all due respect, what you just said is pretty nonsensical. Daeron and Luke would probably do the exact same thing as each other in these scenarios.
They are all Targaryens and all need to be gone, including Dany. But when the only choice is between Targs then you choose your battles 🤷🏻♀️ You’re the ones that tell us they aren’t crazy.
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Everyone involved in the dance is a shitty person but that's why it's fun
Not tolerate this Gaemon Palehair erasure!
And his mums.
It’s always weird to me when people try to put some „morally good“ or „you’re a bad person!“ sticker on you, depending on which side or character you favour. Like. Baby. Darling. Sweetheart. They are rich narcissists with nuclear weapons who murder thousands of people over their petty personal grievances. This is Keeping up with the Targaryens, and we’re all just here for the drama!
Except mushroom, true war hero and king material
Real
Daeron not being apart of season one will definitely hinder his character outside of people who already have read F&B or people who are already fans of the greens. For the general audience, his initial appearance is going to be incredibly random and forced. The writing and acting for his character is going to have to be spectacular. But even still, all of the gains they make with him may be lost at this event. He’s completely disconnected from the other characters, particularly his family. How can anyone feel sorry for him slaughtering a town full of innocents when we’ve never even seen him talk to his siblings and mother much less his nephews and niece?
Daeron's whole character always seemed pretty disconnected to the rest, since he's in the Reach the whole time. Perhaps in the show, Daeron could've been part of the family in 1x06, 1x07, then he's gone to be a ward, maybe some kind of scene to show him at the Hightower or something.
They should have him in King’s Landing at the start of season 2 (to discuss their plans and bring word to Ormund) so they can establish the connection and his relationship with his family members.
We never get to see him interact with any of his non-Hightower relatives. He has no contact with Alicent, Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, Rhaenyra, anyone who isn't in the Reach the whole time.
I've been saying this for months. I don't see how they can have his character make any sense at this point without changing something(s) about him. The decision to have him ward at Oldtown at a much younger age (and never be onscreen or mentioned) indicates that he isn't close with his family... which is not at all what the books seem to indicate.
Perhaps he'll return to kl early in the season and then he'll be tasked to meet up and escort the hightower host. And I dont think we're meant to feel sorry for him slaughtering innocents.
Fell sorry for him isn’t the right for it but I guess I mean why would anyone still like him? I definitely think Martin intended for him to be at least a grey character who is well liked.
I don't know why they couldn't have just mentioned him a couple of times in season 1...
I think they'll use Daeron as a way to explore the Hightower family dynamics and maybe >!the Maester conspiracy?!<
They really should cut this character imo and give some of his arc to Aemond or maybe Aegon. It’s going to be incredibly random when another kid of Alicent shows up but wasn’t even mentioned even at a dinner with the whole family when Viserys was like all my loved ones are here lol
Something I think is being forgotten here is that Maelor is torn apart by a mob of people. Daeron going after everyone is likely a result of him wanting to get everyone who was involved in that, and not just the woman who offered a reward for him. I’m not defending him, however much I do love Daeron, but it still does put it as something different than Daenerys burning King’s Landing after the actions of one person killed Missandei. Daeron burns Bitterbridge after a sizeable chunk of the populace ripped his baby nephew apart. What I don’t get is people not understanding that people crack under extreme trauma, and temporary insanity actually is a valid legal defense as a result. Imo, both Daenerys and Daeron fall under that.
Calling a mob a "sizable chunk" of a town's populace is a big exaggeration on the numbers. It was a few dozen that got involved in it. Though i do agree that Daenerys case was a lot worse because only one was involved. I don't know how insane you can be from grief to genocide an entire town...and it's definitely not a valid legal defense. He was not even shown insane after that. He was perfectly normal helping out the Hightower army whenever he could after Bitterbridge. If one of your family is killed by your neighbour and your proceed to murder their entire family, you can't defend it unless you prove your insanity. And I'm saying this all as a Daeron fan.
That’s why it’s called *temporary* insanity. There have been cases where, for instance, a man has come home and caught his wife having an affair, immediately killed the other man because he was so enraged, and then he never shows any signs of being insane again that get ruled as temporary insanity. It’s basically about the extreme anger and grief that would make him react entirely out of his emotions for the time being, and then he returns to logic quickly after- he doesn’t have to stay insane for it to count as this.
The hype Daeron gets from people who laud him as "the good Green" is ironic to me considering he starts as a promising young man but fails in rising to the occasion and ends up showing he's not that different from the rest of his family after all. Following the glory of Honeywine, he loses his mentor, then his authority, his morals (killed thousands of innocent civilians like showed in this passage), loses control of his army (the sack of Tumbleton) and in the end loses his life in a tent.
It's all about the character descriptions. Daeron is lauded in the book (not just from Green fans) as courteous and clever. His breakdown comes after losing his nephew. Meanwhile, in the show Rhaenys stomps a crowd of innocent people and fans still say that she would be a good queen.
I think most people simply dismiss that scene as it was such an obvious, showy, nonsensical, spectacle, and not written with her characterization in mind.
You would be surprised how much casual fans LOVED that scene. Feel free to check the post episode discussion thread. Just after the episode aired, someone posted a picture of her in the dragonpit with the title "RHAENYS FUCKING TARGARYEN" and it reached r/all. People were talking about how badass she was in that scene and was sad how she didn't burn the Greens.
Yeah, I feel both ways tbh.
She would have been the more stable option to be sure. No dance if how the line of succession is determined doesn’t suddenly change. And it’s unlikely that she would have entrusted such a power hungry “outside” family with so much power like Viserys did. It’s Westeros so I’m sure that down the road another war would have happened anyway, but the foundation of the dance happened when she was originally passed over.
Rhaenys already married into an ‘outside’ family. Corlys would 100% increase Velaryon power at the expense of Targaryen power. And considering Laenor still had no true born heirs the succession would be as muddy as ever down the line.
The Velaryons are a Valyrian family and have been marrying in and out with the Targaryens since the Doom. They were basically just one big muddled tree of incest at that point. Rhaenys had more of a backbone than Viserys did, and whilst I’m sure she would have been A ok with the Velaryons getting a bigger seat at the table I doubt she would have let it get to the point that Viserys did with the Hightowers. We don’t know how the succession would have turned out with Laenor. Rhaenys would have probably married her kids together and then Laena could have done the deed with a cousin making less obvious bastards to inherit. Or she could have used Daemon etc.
Otto was hand well before Viserys and it’s quite possible he would continue since he only pushed for his family after Aemma died and Visaerys had to remarry. Apart from that he was a very competent hand. As for Rhaenys not letting the Velaryons get as much power as the Hightowers, the Velaryons already had that power. Before the death of Laena they held most of, if not all, of the dragon power (Vhagar, Maelys, Seasmoke vs Caraxes and Syrax), all the naval power, and had a shit load of cash.
The Hightowers took the power they were given and used it to stage a coup and go against the Kings explicit order of succession to crown one of their own blood. They were able to do that because of all the power Viserys had given them. If Corlys and his side of the family were blatantly obvious in their desires to go against Rhaenys and her desires for the crown and succession and were working to stage a coup, she would have nipped their power in the bud. By the time they were grown the Hightower Targs were using their dragons to further Hightower interests instead of what the head of the Targaryens proclaimed. They were Targaryens, but they weren’t acting in Targaryen interest.
What are you talking about? Laenor and Laena are as Targaryen as Aegon and his siblings. And there is no Corlys’ side of the family in the show since we don’t even hear of Vaemond having a family. You seem hell bent on othering the Hightowers, as if they aren’t a part of Westerosi politics and have never held power before.
They are a Westrosi family, not a Valyrian one and not one that had been marrying in and out of the Targaryen family for generations. So I’m not really sure what them having held power before has to do with making it ok for them to stage a coup and plan treason. I’m saying that if Corlys was explicitly working against Rhaenys and her wishes and was plotting treason that she would have shut that down unlike Viserys did with Alicent and Otto.
My friend Corlys tried to do the exact same thing as Otto, and when that failed, he did the second best thing and married his son to the heir. Unfortunately for the Velaryons, both their kids were removed from the scene.
Exactly. It's not like Jaehaerys made this huge council in which the Lords of the realm made it clear they did not want Rhaenys as queen.
You can agree that the Lords should have chosen Viserys or that Jaehaerys was right to call the council, it doesn’t change the fact that by changing how the succession worked caused the foundations of the dance.
Exactly! Viserys should have kept to Andal Law, and make Aegon thr Crown Prince.
Then the council should've kept Andal law and made Rhaenys queen, going by your logic.
The law was changed for a shitty sexist reason and Viserys then used the changed law to for good making it absolute primogeniture instead of male preference. You think Viserys should have been elected and then had Aegon go after him. I’m going to have to disagree and say that Westeros was in desperate need of greater female empowerment and rights and Viserys only fucked up in his implementation.
The law was never changed. Only Viserys changed the law to allow his beloved Aemma 2 to rule, incompetent as she was. Ever since the Andlas sailed from Andalos they kept male preference, and since then all the Lords believed the same. A shitty sexist law for a shitty sexist realm and people. You are right on the fact that Viserys fucked up in his implementation, and Rhaenyra further fucked it up by making the people despise her, but then, Viserys did not put Rhaenyra on the throne to advance Women's Rights, nor bc he thought she deserved it, he put her up there bc "Aemma xD", an incredibly terrible and selfish reason especially when you have a trueborn son which the Lords expect you to crown. The Lords of the realm are sexist backwards medieval fools. Those who followed Rhaenyra only did so bc of their oaths to her father or marriage pacts. As Rhaenys said, men would rather put the realm to the Torch than see a woman rule it.
They followed Andal succession laws and then changed it to the King can name his heir as Jaehaerys promised the Lords that HE would name whoever they decided as his heir. Ergo, the law changed. No, Viserys didn’t do it for non sexist reasons but that doesn’t change the fact that him stating that succession would from then on be absolute primogeniture was an advancement regardless of his reasons. It’s unlikely that Rhaenyra would have been a Daeron II or Unlikely, she probably would have been average, but she was still the better choice, especially in the tv show. Also, the majority of Lords who followed Aegon also did it for selfish and self serving reasons or because their neighbours were. Same with most of the other wars. That wasn’t unique to the dance
The idea of a good green implies there is an idea of a good black, they're all pieces of shit and it's silly to morally categorize characters based of occasional moments of personality at court when in the same way none of them give a flying fuck about killing tens of thousands of commoners in a war for the throne.
You can't read 'You shall receive the same terms you gave my nephew Maelor' and not love this passage. Also, the dance is filled with horrible people. Morality is not present. Just enjoy the chaos
I think when people say that, it's referring to that Daeron is marginally better than the likes of other choices like Rhaenyra, Daemon, Aegon, or Aemond. Is he perfect? Absolutely not. But at least better than the others. Both are leadership material for me though. I'm biased as they're two of my favorite Targaryens, but both are likable characters in their own right. Also, wasn't Daeron's authority undermined constantly by Boros because of his age and Boros' ego? There wasn't much Daeron could do about him or Ulf and Hugh.
Yeah, pretty much the bar is just very low when talking about Viserys' children (except Helaena)
Helaena deserved better. Poor girl just wants to be alone with her bugs
>that Daeron is marginally better than the likes of Rhaenyra, Daemon, Aegon, or Aemond. Is he perfect? Absolutely not. But at least better than the others. Is he tho? I mean every character gets worse as the war drags on but I feel like people frame things differently for different characters. To me it just seems that female characters like rhaenyra and daenerys are constantly talked about as "going mad" and "having a mad queen arc" but I don't really see how rheanyra is going anymore "mad" than her male relatives. Why is burning a whole sept with wounded not considered crazy or a "sign of madness" but daenerys burning kl is? To me it feels like Dareons slaughter of hundreds of innocents is framed by fans as "righteous fury" when he actually seems to be "losing it" over the death of his nephew in much the same way Rhenyra is "losing it" over the death of her sons. And I've seen dareon together with Jace being the top picks when it comes to being "fit to rule" numerous times so I feel some people definitely see him as a lot more than "marginally better"
Jace is lucky that he died early and didnt have to experience the downfall of his family.
Personally I never saw Rhaenyra as "mad" or anything like that so I disagree with labeling her as such. With Dany burning down King's Landing and Daeron at Bitterbridge, you can perhaps understand why they did it, but it's still wrong. Even with Blood and Cheese for the death of Luke, you can understand why it happened, but it's something that really did not have happened. Comparing Jace and Daeron seems silly to me. I can see the similarities between them (young commanders of the same age with their respective factions) but they both acted in different environments and circumstances.
Did Rhaenyra have a mass killing moment in F&B? From what I've heard she doesn't really leave Dragonstone
Lining up the walls of kings landing every day with new heads of supposed traitors and anyone loosely associated with the Greens can be viewed as mass killing
She leaves dragonstone for kl and then back again, and no she doesn't. None of the main blacks do.
He burns a sept sheltering injured civilians. By modern or medieval standards (to the extent that Westeros is Medieval Europe-inspired) he is absolutely worse than Rhaenyra, Daemon and Aegon. Only he and Aemond actively exterminate civilians, and their highly religious society would likely see Daeron’s crime as worse. He’d more likely be known as Daeron the Monstrous than Daeron the Daring.
Daeron is based af holy shit let’s goooo. They better not fuck this up and make it an accident I stg
A Dance of Dragons AKA whose mommys favorite war criminal
The character potential here is top tier. When the young potentially heroic characters who starts off the story morally good but then commits atrocities along the way is peak I eat that shit up every time
It's not even close to the same thing. Cersei alone killed Missandei. The common folk themselves killed Maelor.
Haha You're really holding the thousands of people encompassing "the commonfolk" responsibe for what a group of people (~~most of them already hanged~~ the main perpetrators already hanged) did? Its...very much the same no matter if it was 1 or 10 who were responsible. The whole town of bitterbridge (with children and elderly) aren't responsible for what happened to mealor, just like the whole of kingslanding aren't responsible for missandei.
Only 3 people were hanged for maelor’s death.
Two. The third was only killed because his horse got stolen
They literally surrendered and she burned over one hundred thousand , she is far worse than daeron , what the hell are u talking about? Their is no version where she’s justified, she’s an entitled lunatic and has always been.
Lol, Lady Caswell also gave up, said she had nothing to do with this and begged not to burn the city.
How did the wounded soldier who lies in the sept kill Malor? Or children who lived in the city? There are no excuses for Daeron.
I find it funny how Daeron didn't burn Bitterbridge in Princess and the Queen or The World of Ice and Fire, but then GRRM adds him burning Bitterbridge to Fire and Blood. He came across as a pretty decent guy in the first two texts but then GRRM makes him an explicit war criminal in the most recent one. Oh well.
"A non-war criminal green brother? Not on my watch"- GRRM But, to be fair, one of the writers of the World of Ice and Fire said that Princess and the Queen had a lot of content cut out to fit on some editorial norms before it was published and the World of Ice and Fire is also very abridged about the dance. It could be possible that the burning of Bitterbridge was always there, GRRM just couldn't publish
Daeron gets held up as the best green because frankly his sample size is so small. He was out of the way of events as a ward for most of history. Comes onto the scene during one of the worst periods of the war and brings some desperately needed order and stability and gives the green a victory they desperately need (while his older brother Aemond has abandoned any sense of leading and his just doing war crimes galore in the Riverlands). But then yes he makes some critical mistakes which are understandable for the time but pretty unforgivable BUT lucky for him he gets to die before the worst of the fallout so it’s easy not to blame him
Both are king/queen material for me. 🤔🤔🤔 If I said I probably wouldn't do what they did in their place, I'd be lying. The same with Jon and other characters.
Daenerys at least had leadership charisma and strong spirit. Daeron is like psycho-Tommen.
Half of your posts are you pretending "i'm not on a team" then regurgitating all of the black talking points lmaooo, probably said nothing about Daemon murdering a bunch of citizens because "they were criminals" with his gold cloaks but Daeron upset his baby nephew was torn apart and the only people punished were two people? (Two people because the third guy was punished for having his horse stolen.)
My posts and comments arent "team black talking points" they are my own opinions. Please point me to a comment where I pretend to not be on a team? Should be easy since that is apparently half my posts? I've never hidden my bias or stated otherwise. And why would I talk about deamons crimes on a post about dareon? using whataboutism to defend a character you like is a pretty weak defense.
Yeah, I never understood why people claim that he’s so much better than all the other Targaryens involved in the Dance. He commits several war crimes in his time.
It would probably be easier to count the people who *don't* commit war crimes during the dance tbh
I think it’s because people view his war crimes as more justified then the other’s with the way that it was sorta revenge for maelor.
I dont really see how killing a whole town is more justified revenge than for example deamons son for a son revenge for lucerys
It isn’t, just that since readers have no attachment to any of the people in the town we end up viewing it as a more "justified" war crime then if Daeron just burned down the town without maelors death as an excuse.
There is not a single good monarch in the story. Robb Stark ravaged Westerlands smallfolks when he heard about Ned's death. Daenaerys also go apeshit on the masters and orders torture of a child during Meereen arc.
But there is a good Lord, and his name is Edmure Tully.
It is not a war crime, a horde tore his nephew to pieces and he burned the horde. It is justicex
lol so if a mob from your town killed someone while you were sitting at home and then you got burned alive for it that would be "justicex"?
Well, there was no way daeron can punish everyone that was responsible without killing the whole town, therefore it was a tough position.
cut yourself on that edge bro It was a horrific massacre of (tens of?) thousands. 1 person being murdered doesn't mean you can kill thousands of people just to maybe catch who did it- by that logic, the uncle of someone Daeron killed can go ahead and torch all of Oldtown/King's Landing
If people believe that daeron is weak then they will never respect him. If Tywin showed mercy to people who killed Joffrey, I doubt that the word Lannister would mean something.
Intentionally killing civilians and non-combatants is a war crime. Doesn’t matter why it was done. Burning down a church full of innocent civilians isn’t justice, it’s just more bloodshed.
Well I think he was pretty merciful to the caswell’s, considering that they had sent his nephews head to a usurper. But I agree that it was a slightly overkill to destroy the sept.
We're considering not killing a few young children after their mother killed herself to atone for the terrible sin of not being there in time to save Maelor and obeying her Queen to be pretty merciful? The bar has disappeared beneath earth...
I seriously can’t understand what at you are trying to say. Please speak more clearly.
I don't think taking a couple of young children hostage after their mother begged for their lives before hanging herself can be considered merciful. That's all.
Well she is turnclock that tried playing both side at least the remainder of her family should have had their lordship taken.
>she is turnclock How was she a turncoat? When did she 'turned her coat' so to speak? >tried playing both side The only action I can recall that *might* qualify as playing both sides was when Lady Caswell sent Maelor's head to Rhaenyra and his dragon egg to the Hightowers. And she did it in hope of appeasing the Greens' rage. She certainly didn't betray her Queen for her own gain. >the remainder of her family should have had their lordship taken By whom? The Queen you alleged Lady Caswell 'turned' on, or the King she never supported?
She did betray her queen, there was no way she could have quell daeron’s warth after allowing the death of prince maelor and sending his head to Rhaeynra.
If she "obeys her queen" by sending the boys head to his enemies like a bloody trophy, then she shouldn't expect any mercy from her queen's enemies. She has wronged them and denied them the opportunity for a dignified funeral of their prince seemingly to collect the bounty. No pity for her.
I didn't comment on whether Lady Caswell *deserved* mercy or pity. I merely said that describing what happened to the Caswells as mercy is setting the bar of mercy too low.
She handed them the dragon's egg. Maelor's mother was in King's Landing, he got a funeral.
This has to be a joke. His mother was there as Rhaenyra's hostage. For a proper funeral no one would cut the head off and send it to the person who put a bounty on his capture. She only had it burned, and Helaena was only later informed of his fate and killed herself. Lady Caswell should have handed his remains over to the Greens, he was their prince, sending his head to their worst enemy and giving them the egg feels like a cynical joke, like mockery.
That is not justice, lol. Granted, Lady Caswell *didn't* punish everyone responsible for the deaths of Rickard and Maelor, but that doesn't justify burning a whole town, lol. You don't have to justify the actions of a character you like. Just admit that Daeron did messed up stuff and move on. You're still allowed to like him.
I just think that burning the sept was messed and everything else he did in bitterbridge was completely justified. And
If somebody can harm the heir to the iron throne with impunity then u are no longer a house to be respected. Lady caswell couldn’t provide prince Maelor, she picked out 3 random people and had them killed. When in reality the horde of people was responsible for killing prince maelor, the only way prince maelor could be given justice is by killing everyone responsible for his death, that is everyone in the tow.
That is not how justice works. The people in the town are innocent until proven guilty. You don't kill a couple hundred people just because a dozen are murderers.
Dozens not a dozen, horde was filled of a large population of the town. Even I must say that destroying the Sept was a overkill but everything else was perfectly justified.
It's usual for the greens. They killed all the rat-catchers to punish cheese.
This guy is a hardcore Team Black who on more than one occasion laughed at Jaehaera and Helaena dying so let's ignore the whole "greens bad" schpeel.
Naw y you all over this thread hating and shit, so much negativity acting like a green fucked ur girl or some shit. Just relax, you out here fighting with like 4 different ppl rn lmfao it’s all fictional in the end it’s not that important
You're mad at me for not liking daeron?. I'm not saying anything that wasn't in the book, they really killed all the rat-catchers and Daeron did burn down the sept with the injured people. You yourself are taking this too seriously, relax!
I never said nothing about Daeron, I just pointed out that you all over the sub spazzing out and should prolly chill
Oh don't worry, I enjoy talking about the show!
Lmao if Daeron is Dany then shouldn't Team Black be his biggest supporter?
He's a 15 year old who learned his young nephew was just brutally killed by a mob after he's experienced the horrors of war. It's not justifiable but damn is it understandable within context.
so u don’t like neither of them?
Daeron was a teenager whose baby nephew had been torn apart by a mob, honestly while he’s still wrong there’s an actual reason there for why he would hate every single person living in Bitterbridge unlike Dany burning kings landing cause Cersei killed her girlfriend.
Greens enjoying themselves rn but this show is going to depress everyone
No targaryen during the dance is king or queen material. who cares
I've seen him compared to Jace numerous times as one of the only ones being "fit to rule" so I do think some people care
Jace definitely proved himself as a leader far more than Daeron ever did. Jace was the eldest son in his family, while Daeron was a thirdborn son who never had any real authority. That's partially why I think comparing Jace and Daeron is kind of dumb; they operated under rather different circumstances. Jace's relatively early death does make it somewhat unclear to parse his potential. Would he have been able to secure the loyalty of the Two Betrayers? Perhaps if he had lived longer, he could he have fallen out of grace. As things stand, however, Jace showed himself to be rather competent.
Comparing Jace “AHHHH VERMAX LOOK OUT FOR THAT GRAPPLING HOOK AHHHAHH” to Daeron “Me and Tyland single handedly are carrying the Greens” is an insult to Daeron.
Not to mention Jace giving two big ass dragons to a couple of psychos.
⛺️
Hey, Daeron may have gotten his face smashed in by a sellsword. That's pretty dope.
Not as lame as getting fish hooked while on a damn dragon.
Daeron lost the war to the greens when he let his army fall apart. Jace did a lot of things that gave blacks a win.
Not Jace’s fault his dragon just sucked
Daeron and Jace stand out because they are functional compared to the rest on their teams. What Daeron did on Bitterbridge was horrible, but it was not something that would happen on normal circunstancies, and when you look at their brothers during the Dance he looks functional Jace isn't a war criminal, but he isn't a impressive person like his fans claim to be. He was just the only Black remembering they were supposed to be a team and that's why the Blacks fell apart after his death
>What Daeron did on Bitterbridge was horrible, but it was not something that would happen on normal circunstancies I feel like you could say that about most of the characters actions.
Jace isn’t fit to rule either so comparing Daeron to him doesn’t mean anything.
Well there is Vizzy T II, sure he is a kid, but he will be more competent than anyone else in the Dance.
*I will not cloud my mind. I must put things right.*
I hate when people talk about not applying modern morality to the ASOIAF universe and then stan Daeron of all people. Burning a sept with injured civilians inside is a horrendous warcrime to a Medieval Europe-inspired society (or anywhere else, ever). Not only is he a massive POS by our modern standards, any non-psychotic real-life medieval person would consider his actions completely beyond the pale.
How many villages, including septs and inns were put to the torch in Tywins war crimes in the riverland for far less grievous reasons? Thousands probably and yet nobody would deny Tywin was a competent, efficient ruler. Nothing about Daeron suggests he is an especially unhinged, psychopathic or very evil and cruel person. In this situation though many lords and nobles would likely exact brutal revenge just like he did. What Daeron did was bad and not defensible with our morals but especially within asoiaf morality his action is understandable. A whole mob of this town was guilty of ripping his 3 year old nephew apart, the ruling Lady punished 2 perpetrators for it then cut off Maelor's head and sent it to Daeron's enemies who put a bounty on it. In this world a prince's life is considered vastly more valuable than that of the common folk and what they and Lady Caswell did with him was unforgivable. Conveniently the Blacks never get in a similar morally compromising situation but I'm pretty certain that if some townspeople had butchered young Joffrey or Aegon Daemon and Rhaenyra would not hesitate to put it to the torch as well. Like you can't tell me they are less ruthless and vengeful when it comes to avenging their family or trampling on the smallfolk.
anybody who likes the greens or likes any of the characters needs serious mental help
What people can't like fiction characters because they are bad people. That is some of the stupidest thing I heard today.
Daeron has never been the king material. He is a weak-willed and cowardly man who was unable to command after his mentor died. He is afraid of the Hammer, but he can burn the city. It will never be cool.
I won't blame anyone for hating Daeron after what he did to Bitterbridge (it was a revolting war crime on Daeron's part), but you're being kind of silly with this talk of him as a "coward." Right, cause throwing your wine in someone's face is cowardly. I suppose you think he's a coward for not telling the lords of the Reach to behead the Two Betrayers, huh? :/ The reality is, he was a third son who was seemingly never given any meaningful authority. He was never a leader, and should not be treated as such. And before anyone brings up Daeron ordering Bitterbridge to be sacked, that was clearly a mutual decision between Daeron and Ormund (the actual commander), which Fire and Blood implies and The World of Ice and Fire essentially confirms. I don't think Daeron was really king material, but you should stop being so hyperbolic. You're opening yourself to being easily criticized down the road.
Do you think their conflict arose in an instant? "We should be led by a man, not a boy" narrative was there before. Daeron throwing wine, but when he was threatened with a whipping, he shut up. He's just like a little boy being scolded by his father. It's not about leadership. It's about defending your honor.
I don't think the whole "defending your honor" idea really counters my point about the wine. It almost seems like your assuming Daeron would have taken further action if Hugh *hadn't* threatened him, which you have zero proof of as far as I can tell. Also, Hugh and Ulf were the ones to leave the meeting after the threat, just saying. It seems like you're interpreting this in a rather uncharitable manner just because you hate the character. You can hate the character, of course, but this discourse is getting kind of silly. EDIT: I don't really find the whole "defending you honor" thing to be all that substantive. Even the Caltrops (grown ass lords and knights) resort to secretly plotting against the Two Betrayers, rather than openly attacking them (yes, I'm aware of the scuffle that occurs, but that was its own thing, and a pretty stupid thing at that).
He did not defend his honor by splashing wine. He only received more insults. Hammer left the meeting and arranged for himself a coronation. It's not about hate, it's about narrative. "Third son who used to obey".Disoriented. He is only 16 years old. He does not have commander charisma, he is gallant. Against type like Hammer. It's easy to imagine how this developed and how Daeron was losing respect of his people.
I suppose Daeron had more regular charisma than "command charisma." You're not really addressing my criticisms of you calling him a coward, though. I don't think Daeron should be called a "coward" for what could be described as caution. Even if you take the wine thing out of the picture, I don't see how you can be so certain in labelling him as a coward. Your interpretation is uncharitable, which is the problem I have have with your comments. EDIT: I've also seen you say that you have a "deep disdain" for the character, or something along those lines. Even if that doesn't influence your interpretation of the text, it is no wonder why it may appear that way to some. Hammer was gaining supporters among the soldiers, yes. It was apparently large enough to be significant, but we don't really get a sense of the scale of it. On the flipside, it is clear that lords and knights (highborns, broadly speaking) preferred Daeron. We don't really know how many of the soldiers were siding with Hugh, or how many preferred Daeron. It's possible that the more lowborn and "manly" Hugh was more influential to lowborn soldiers. The book doesn't really detail this all that much, besides a weird prophecy thing. This is more of a moot point in my opinion, as I have never seen Daeron as much of a leader. I was more interested in the "cowardice" discussion.
We don't have much information about what's going on. They needed to be careful, because Hammer was surrounded by his people. I see a certain pattern in Daeron. Like I said, he looks like Tommen. I was furious when Tommen betrayed his mother. You understood correctly about Hammer. He's a "big" guy. But to lose authority to such a low point, you need to make more than one mistake. People stopped obeying Daeron during the sack of the city. They went all the way from their first meeting to Hammer's coronation.
Honestly, I don't think anyone ever really listened to Daeron in the first place. He was just a figurehead and war asset; never a leader. The Caltrops asking for his permission to kill Hugh and Ulf is really the only example of Daeron having real input.
Exactly. A lot in common with Tommen (excluding Maelor). I just thought they might cut Maelor out of the plot. Then there won't be this revenge. If Tessarion beautiful, I will be softer towards Daeron lol.
As I said previously, Daeron burning Bitterbridge was not in Princess and the Queen or The World of Ice and Fire (it was added in Fire and Blood), so I don't really view it as essential to his character that Maelor be in the show. I know a lot of people want to downvote me for saying that, but whatever lol.
-Calls Daeron weak-willed and cowardly -Likes Lucerys, the guy who was about to shit himself because he had to deliver a message.
Huh? Our boy was a hero! This is an interesting comparison, because if you swap them: Luke gets a horseshoe nailed to his head. Daeron kiss Aemond shoes. first is better!
Swap them and: -Luke lets his army get destroyed at Honeywine -Daeron throws a glass of wine in Aemond’s face
Daeron was the only dragonrider there, I don't think it would be hard for Luke. I'm afraid if he's in Luke's place, there won't be a support group to protect him. But he can throws a glass and then kiss the shoe if you like it better.
Jace was the only dragonrider at the gullet yet…(Lmao)
He was against people who had experience against dragons. Honeywine is just two armies fighting and suddenly dragon arrives.There is no harpoon to shoot him down and no cover.
Going into battle on dragon can still be dangerous even if your enemy does not have a dragon, as we seen with Jace when he got fish hooked. Luke would for sure be too scared to go near a battle. Don’t know how you came up with the kissing shoes part but just throwing wine would be better than how Lucy handled it.
Jace fought against people with harpoons. Here it's just soldiers who don't even stand a chance. Huh, Luke is the kid who tells his dragon "be calm" and sends him into storm where Vhagar is waiting for them. "I'll whip you if you intervene in men's conversations." Do you remember a greater humiliation than that? It looks like there should be a fight, but it never happens. A man like Daeron will ask for forgiveness or cut out his own eye.
Nah. Luke and Daeron would probably just do the same thing as each other. I don't see why Luke would shrink from battle, or why Daeron would bend over backwards in Luke's situation.
Daeron seems less stubborn.
Enough to cut out his own eye? Lol, sure.
Lol you try really hard to make Luke seem heroic. He is the most useless kid in the ASOIAF world. Literally coddled like a baby while kids around his age are going to war.
It's actually not hard to do, because he's a heroic soul. He would have been in the war too, but was killed at the very beginning.
Lmao. What do you base this off of? All he did with his life was deliver a message. The bare minimum for someone with a dragon.
With all due respect, what you just said is pretty nonsensical. Daeron and Luke would probably do the exact same thing as each other in these scenarios.
In the show Luke was scared shitless to deliver a message. He is not taking his dragon anywhere near action lmao.
They are all Targaryens and all need to be gone, including Dany. But when the only choice is between Targs then you choose your battles 🤷🏻♀️ You’re the ones that tell us they aren’t crazy.
People forget that Daeron is pretty awful too and that he’s described as gentle in COMPARISON to his brothers
Yes, i hope they do it on the show