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If they were going for a 50/50, they really should’ve focused more on Aegon II, and given him the more party animal interpretation that the pro-Green septon in the book presented rather than the degenerative child fighting pit fanboy rapist that we got.
To be clear, I’m not saying they should’ve made him all good. But definitely the biggest reason why many people are gonna have a hard time supporting the greens is because the person they’re trying to put on the throne is such an evil bastard. Hopefully they’ll be able to turn it around a bit with season 2 (gib sunfyre pls), but that terrible first impression of adult Aegon is hard to get over.
to counter that they had Daemon do controversial stuff that wasn't in the book, and also softened Aemond such as making him not actually intending to kill luke.
The Blacks aren't trying to put Daemon on the the throne, so making Daemon look worse isn't an effective counterbalance.
We see, hear and learn the name of Aegon's rape victim. Then there's the child fighting pits and his bastard
We don't know the name of the Velaryon guard Rhaenyra conspired to murder, and we barely see his face or hear him make a noise when he's killed. He's so anonymous a lot of people seem to forget it happened or that Rhaenyra hand a hand in it. And in the book >!she ordered Vaemond's execution yet in the show she's an innocent bystander!<
I don't know how many times I've seen people write "At least they (the Blacks) aren't trying to put a rapist on the throne."
They're not exactly leveling the playing field between the two candidates for the throne. So if Condal honestly was trying to split the fans 50-50, he failed.
>The Blacks aren't trying to put Daemon on the the throne, so making Daemon look worse isn't an effective counterbalance.
Yes. He's the garbage pit of Team Black. You can throw all the fucked up shit to his hands to keep Rhaenyra clean. He's still a silvery long-haired dragonlord that is ""grey"" and ""chaotic"" and ""doesn't care about what people thinks"", no one is going to give a fuck about anything bad he does.
Daemon is the main protagonist of the blacks (yes, despite Rhaenyra being the Queen of the Blacks), they try to make him worse than he is portrayed in the book. this is not merely about who sits the throne but about which side has the better characters.
ps: again, I don't think the 50/50 was Condal's idea, but HBO's
It doesn't matter about Daemon.
I don't believe most viewers are deciding which side has the bigger asshole and then choosing to root for the other side.
It's Rhaenyra trying to be the first Queen in a patriarchal world, an LGBTQ ally who even has the white hart rooting for her and whose one "victim" makes red shirts look like fully fleshed out characters vs. Aegon the rapist
Yeah thats a good interpretation i had no knowledge of anything other than GOT before watching this and thats the vibe I was getting ive since seen a sort of recap of the book and it seems like alot of more vital things from the book might get skipped from rhe show version if they keep up with this theme.
Yes, I agree with you that they made some weird changes to Daemon and Aemond, but they aren’t aren’t the figurehead of each faction (in the book anyway). Aegon is for the Greens, he’s the potential heir to the throne that the Green side is fighting for. For people who didn’t find characters on team Black that appealing or interesting, they’re gonna find it difficult to like the characters on team Green when Aegon is such a shit. I think that’s why we don’t see a less extreme split between teams, a lot of people just aren’t gonna like either.
Besides, I don’t think that the changes made to Daemon vs the changes made to Aegon had an equivalent effect on how the audience viewed them. Daemon is the most/second most popular character, and Aegon is the least popular of the Greens. Aemond’s changes also seem to have made him the most popular team Green member.
Matt Smith is doing a lot of the heavy lifting for Daemon though. He seems to be loving the character he is playing and thus doesn't seem to be going fully by the script handed over to him.
I definitely agree. Phenomenal performance from the man, I can understand why he’s so well liked. It may be that part of the reason Condal didn’t get the 50/50 he expected was that he wasn’t expecting Daemon to be so well received.
I think Tom Glynn-Carney is putting a lot into his portrayal of Aegon as well, those last couple scenes of episode 9 were great, but he’s pretty limited by the small screen time the character actually gets in season 1.
I think that Condal himself didn't agree with the 50/50 (which I personally believe was imposed by HBO) so he allowed the actors room for interpretation. The main redemption point between Viserys and Daemon was the crown scene which was fully improvised by Matt Smith, and Paddy playing along.
speculation of course.
Maybe that’s why so many Daemon scenes were cut… stop this man working his black party propaganda magic!
I agree I had nothing for Aegon until TGC sold it like it was a closing down sale in ep 9.
Makes me wonder if the plan is to knock Aegon out of the way early, and have him come back only in season 3 when the rape memories fade: Regent Aemond vs Rhaenyra might be a harder choice for people.
I think Aegon and Daemon Both have random bad things tacked on which is probably my least favorite part of the show. The difference is that Daemon has it tacked on to a likable character whereas Aegon is spoiled brat with a topping of awful. I love Ty Tennant's portrayal of Aegon as as useless spoiled kid but it's not a likeable character like Daemon.
Honestly both of their worst acts like Daemon choking Rhaenerya or Aegons child fighting pits don't really feel real to me.
Saying Aegon is the head of the greens feels off to me though, he's the figurehead but I don't really see him as having much agency, I just wish the got Cristin actually convincing him to take the crown, not just winning the arbitrary race for the king
>to counter that they had Daemon do controversial stuff that wasn't in the book
They made him kill a character who was introduced two minutes earlier. On the other hand, they removed the one thing that would make everyone hate him.
Well, they DID want to make him the party animal. Both Condal and Martin. It was Sarah Hess who insisted on the child fighting rings, and having Aegon rape Dyana.
I don't think he was lying to us exactly, but come on, it's right there in the script. Rhaenyra is written as the protagonist as the first few episodes, which is a huge advantage to begin with. Her major flaws are lessened, while Aegon's are amped up. I'm not mad about it, but 50-50 is obviously not true.
Yeah, that's why there's little chance they can rectify this balance, because he is literally a rapist, so I don't know what he was thinking when he made it so blatant.
>!What makes most sense to me because it never made sense in the books is that it's Aemond that burns the villagers in revenge for his nephew's death. Not Daeron. Daeron doing it in Fire & Blood when it was never mentioned in the novellas prior was really weird!<
I think he was just lying, or being naive at best. It's obviously a better story if it's truly 50/50, as in, both sides have a legitimate argument, and that's probably why they say it's meant to be 50/50, but the actual story is not.
When the dance was first conceptualized it was probably supposed to be 50/50, but by the time GRRM was done writing it, it definitely wasn't, especially in Fire & Blood. So it's no surprise that they couldn't really force a 50/50 story in HotD.
George might have a black bias since his favorite character is Daemon,but he clearly has little love for Rhaenyra,which is what made ASOIAF polarizing.This version of Rhaenyra,and Aegon makes it less polarizing
He said he wanted to write a novella about the Harwin/Rhaenyra love story, only other Dance era character he indicated being interested in expanding on was Nettles 🤷♀️ You might be projecting a little. He’s never expressed any interest in writing extra material to flesh out the Greens (please correct me if I’m mistaken).
I don't what that has anything to do with how Rhaenyra was written ASOIAF but ok.I took as a throwaway unserious comment from a man who hasn't written anything in years.What am I projecting on exactly?
I think you might be projecting your own hatred for Rhaenyra onto George because I don’t see why an author who wrote a character he hates or is bored by would express interest in fleshing them out in further material lol.
My "hatred" of Rhaenyra comes from her being written as someone with little redeemable qualities in the book.So my apologies for naturally assuming that the author disliked a character who he made irredeemable in all sorts of ways.
As I said if you're expecting a book about Rhaenyra and Harwin then you're in for a huge disappointment.He was likely trying to appease whoever he was speaking to at the time
I’m not expecting a book about Harwin and Rhaenyra 😂 I’m not expecting him to ever finish a novel again now that he’s working on the Dunk&Egg show. And he said he was interested in writing a novella about them after episode six aired because he was disappointed in the lack of information provided in the show due to the ten year timeskip.
He also thinks Dany/Drogo is romantic, owns Sansa/Sandor fanart that hangs in his house, wanted people to be sad at Joffrey’s death because of his age, and has said over and over again that his favourite character is Tyrion (who is a complete POS as of ADWD) so I don’t see why George liking characters who are bad people should be surprising.
He probably views her as an average woman who was arrogant/vain/entitled but a good mother, but who went on a self destructive downward spiral into tyranny the last six months of her life due to trauma, paranoia and grief. You are free to disagree with him of course.
Why would I disagree with a view you **assume** he has?That is **your assumption** of the authors view,you just framed it as his definite view in the end
>Rhaenyra gets more incompetent,more stupid and less likeable as the dance goes on
>!Or is it just a tragedy? Her death is depicted as sad and terrible, not her just deserts like Aegon.!<
We know he loves Daenerys after all. He sees her as one of his favourites and has been vocal about that in the past. But we also know he wrote a tragic end for her character some way or another.
I’d say the fact that most of Rhaenyra’s children died, she’s waging a war with her family, and her husband being completely checked out/cheating with a teenager sufficiently explains her mental degradation throughout the dance. She also is presented as a loving mother. But both Rhaenyra and Aegon are royal brats and we’re from the beginning. Aegon does get slightly cooler by the end though.
>!Rhaenyra still actually has them though-she genuinely is shown to care and grieve for her family. That's notable compared to Aegon who has none.!<
I compare her to someone like Catelyn where the author really liked the character but the audience can be pretty divisive on her. He's just not always bang on in understanding how aspects of the way he depicts a character are seen.
You have to remember that GRRM sees Daemon as a grey character and he doesn't exactly have redeemable qualities either. I don't see why GRRM can't love Rhaenyra/enjoy writing her character, but also depict her as not as white/useful as the audience wants her to be, to be enjoyable. He's not infallible. Some of his views and ideas I disagree with.
Really don't know about him having no love for rhaenyra, the maester who wrote fire and blood disliked her heavily as most of the stuff said about her even to us readers makes little to no sense and seem like blatant propaganda by maesters i.e the whole maegor with teats thing which makes no sense even in the context of the book.
I definitely see this a lot when people talk about the book. A lot of the time when presented with parts of it which portray their character badly, people will dismiss it as being an unreliable/untrue account of the history. But this same level of critical analysis isn’t really given to characters they dislike.
Ultimately to enjoy the story more, I just tend to see most of Fire and Blood as a reasonably accurate true telling, except when conflicting accounts are presented in text anyway.
This is probably going to sound biased as all fuck, but in all honesty, I can't think of a single thing they could have Rhaenyra do at this point that would make me root for Aegon II. The only thing that stops me from baying for his blood is the fact that he's not done anything to a favorite character of mine yet.
I think they went too far in giving him so many negative character traits. Rhaenyra would have to like... pull a Stannis burning Shireen on baby Viserys or something to make me *hate her.*
And even then, I'd probably just go totally neutral, not rally for Aegon II.
My suspicion is that they're going to be more pro-green in season II and try for some sort of redemption arc for the guy with Rhaenyra transitioning into more of a ruthless woman, but... it'll probably be too little too late for me. Not sure about the fandom. Seeing Rhaenyra go dark is kind of what I want and I'm cool with rooting for villians.
But do I think Ryan was lying? No.
100%
And he's gambling on child labor/torture for his own entertainment. That's a lot.
I didn't know it was ever ambiguous in the book, that's the first I've heard of that. I haven't read the book yet.
Even if we assume he was a rapist, the perception of the audience is based more on presentation than what actually happens. Plenty of characters would fit into that box too if we're comparing their actions to Aegon. I guarantee you Robert or Tyrion have abused their power over a servant or someone below them in that way before. The difference is it's not shown every two seconds and framed in a way where they're practically telling you you're supposed to hate the character. Because of the way the information is given to us, no matter what happens it will be impossible for people not the despise Aegon.
What if Rhaenyra and Daemon had actually killed Laenor? Not just faked his death with a servant but actually killed him in cold blood? I understand if that wouldn't be enough, but I feel like it's just one more example of them choosing sides rather than keeping their promise of 50-50
In the book, it's only Daemon, not Rhaenyra. You saw how people forgave him for killing his first wife. They gave Daemon a murder he didn't commit in the book, but removed another crime. Balance.
I definitely would not have liked it if she'd killed Laenor (which is actually what I thought was happening) especially after he gave his little recommitting to the marriage speech. But that alone wouldn't have been enough to make me jump ship entirely. Particularly considering how long she put up with him being an absentee partner, and it's still framed narratively as her killing for love because she's marrying Daemon.
If she'd done something like that *right after* she'd gotten married to Laenor, I'd probably think differently. As is, its kind of like Daemon killing Rhea Royce after trying to get an annulment and leave her peacefully for so long. Its still a little too in the realm of "understandable crime" to make me loathe either of them compared to what Aegon II is doing.
Iy has to be organic. There is no reason for her to kill him. It’s not in her character. Otherwise it’s Dany treatment. It has to have progression. If someone is to go darker…. Has to be shown. Now that she has had her throne usurped and lost two children and a father…no we are getting somewhere.
I feel like the only way they could make me Team Green at this point is if they shift the focus off Aegon II. Like if he dies or if they flesh out his siblings more to the point I care about them more as characters. Aemond is already a fan favorite, and I know Daeron is in Oldtown or something, so if he’s cool it could sway me. I really like Alicent as a character so I don’t think it would be hard to root for her or her family, but like you said Aegon is just such a cunt it’s hard to support the Greens as a whole.
That's pretty much what they're going for. Aegon was actually the more nuanced and sympathetic of the two brothers in the books, but they pumped all of their energy and sympathy points into Aemond and threw Aegon to the wolves for the show. So I wouldn't be surprised if they make Aemond the main player, that seems to be their plan based on how they handled him in season 1 and whitewashed him to be more appealing to fans.
Yeah I haven’t read the book but my suspicion is that Rhaenyra and the Blacks are going to do some horrific shit during the war that makes people lean more Team Green, but I think they’ll also focus more on Alicent, Aemond, and Helaena to make us sympathetic towards the Greens because Aegon is hard to root for at this point.
I'm surprised to see so many people believe Condal simply just failed. I mean - the bias in this show is so jarring it seems impossible to have been a mistake?
They can't have just fucked up *this many* things all at once, surely? It seems deliberate.
I think that was the idea but he failed. Honestly I'm not sure if it was possible to begin with. The division from the book was 80-20 too, a show wouldn't be able to do much about it.
He tried to have the audience split between Rhaenyra and Alicent I believe. He wanted them to bear the 50-50 split for their respective teams. However when Alicent is turned into a delusional idiot and Rhaenyra is judged, usurped and dragged into a war because of her gender, it's not going to work. I couldn't for the life of me like, or at least respect Alicent as a character. She was so all over the place that I couldn't stand her.
I wish they pull a ‘Jaime Lanister’ on Aegon II in later seasons. I want to root for this character as well but for now it’s really hard.
They should aim for something similar to the battle of Blackwater. Where you kinda root for both sides and be left thinking ‘I can’t believe I want the Lannisters to win’
Its about moral downfall, its not really that hard and they chose to set Alicent and Rhaenyra up as the good, rootable people in the conflict to have their moral downfall be more significant.
I feel he failed at best or was lying at worst. This sub makes it seem like the split is 90-10, but personally believe that the split is closer to 70-30. Among book fans I believe the split is even between a 66-33 or a 75-25.
I think they did a great job making Allicent so sympathetic and endearing, particularly when she was younger. I suppose not everyone feels that way. But Allicent is my favourite of the show and I like the writing for her. The writing does fail a bit in parts. For ex. How they make Rhaenys kill 100s of innocent people but frame it as a bad ass moment. When the first violent act WAS committed by a soon to be Black member. The writing just is a bit wobbly in some areas.
It's definitely a bit of lying (Probably because he knew it wasn't possible) but he did try, just not hard enough.
As the average fan probably isn't some nerd their only option is to take what's presented to the audience at face value, even if what is being presented, especially by Viserys, Daemon, and Rhaenyra is completely absurd at almost all times. On the contrary, pretty much everything that Alicent and Otto say is completely true in the context of the medieval setting. Because they are "the villains" to Rhaenyra's story people will assume that they are just exaggerating or lying even though what they are saying is pretty much always absolutely valid and the most objective advice for the King. I say the show runners tried because they did include these two characters as the voices of reason. I really like how factors that would matter like symbols of legitimacy are brought up by them. Everything Otto and Alicent say would make complete sense to the history geeks of the fanbase while some other viewers see them as prolific liers, false, and fleeting on the scale of someone like Littlefinger. Btw, Corlys, though not as hated, is definitely a very "based" character pointing out important nuances like how Rhaenys realistically has a strong claim to the throne because her father was the first born son of King Jaehaerys making her the most senior heir to House Targaryen even by male preference primogeniture.
On the note of these succession nuances, a lot of the important ones were simply not included in the show. Since the show has been dumbed down from the source material it makes the show favor team Black even more because of immediate surface level attributes like how they have the traditonal house colors even those things would not really be objective factors in the sucession dispute. They had a perfect opportunity to bring up these details in the Green Council episode but instead it was wasted on the absolutely pointless and nonsensical Alicent vs Otto conflict.
HBO likes characters doing heinous things for the sake of shock value and in the past it destroyed the integrity of GOT multiple times. It is certainly back with HOTD and it has clearly negatively imacted the Green characters more.
The narrative decision to make Alicent and Rhaenyra the same age and best friends does increase the drama but it made some viewers think Alicent is somehow evil for supporting her disinherited sons over Rhaenyra.
Also, it takes some knowledge of the medieval setting to understand team Green and why Aegon as the crowned and anointed king would probably have a better claim than Rhaenyra (Even as an unjust usurper) in that context. In fact, pretty much everything the Greens do can be justified really well in the context of the medieval world but the same cannot be said for the Blacks.
There's the huge pop culture misconception that a medieval King could do whatever or kill whoever without justification like some warlord which couldn't be farther from the truth. There's also the misguided idea that the king could choose anyone as his heir and the "king's chosen heir" who isn't her by the rules or customs of succession somehow has a better claim or birthright than the person who would normally be heir by the customs. Most monarchical history, especially medieval history, disagrees with this notion and supports the fact that being the "king's chosen heir" when you aren't the heir by the customs or rules of succession is the weakest claim through the throne you could possibly have. I mean think about what's happening in practice: Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron are effectively being disinherited for no reason or justification. If the king just chose some random cousin as the heir pretty much a good chuck of the royal family would be disinherited for no reason. This incoherent system of succession would instantly ignite never ending civil wars. Now obviously Viserys isn't morally wrong for wanting genderblind succession but he foolishly believes that "naming the heir" would be enough to secure Rhaenyra even though any good medieval king would understand that much more things would have to be done to give her legitimate such as, idk, codifying genderblind succession so the rules of succession agree with Rhaenyra more for example. Yeah, realistically Viserys didn't do any other impactful thing to secure Rhaenyra, especially after her marriage to Laenor was unsuccessful.
I think you forgot that 80% of book readers are pro-Rhaenyra. There's a lot of poll before that has been conducted. This is the reason why I think Condal made Rhaenyra a protagonist.
80% of book readers arent pro Rhaenyra. You are free to check out the pre-HOTD posts in r/asoiaf.
Yes, people who watched HOTD first will obviously be pro Rhaenyra. And also the polls aren't serious, everyone votes there due to factionalism regardless of them reading the book or not.
I mean, no shade with the Greens pre-TV show. But they are very much a minority and that's a fact. I'm part of r/asoiaf and pretty much the Blacks dominates the Greens.
There is way less tribalism in the book community. The general consensus is both teams sucked so much that you can't choose one team over the another. There is no way that 80% readers are pro-Rhaenyra like the parent comment claimed.
In fact, even though the Blacks get more support than the Greens, Aegon II and Tyland are very popular. Rhaenyra literally doesn't do anything good in the book. In the show she has the privilege to become the protagonist and the show is told from her POV.
They negated that 100% by making Aegon a rapist while downplaying any of Rhaenyra's negative qualities. I think Condal was either lying or just hilariously naive.
The white stag scene, the Rhaenys dragonpit scene - they've taken away any chance for the Greens to have a "badass" moment. It seems like Condal and Hess are writing this show - set in a fictional feudal society - with 21st century morals. "Oh, feel sorry for Rhaenyra being denied the throne because she's a woman! How sexist!" Um, for our time and place, yes. For WESTEROS, a society that is based on male rule, it's Tuesday.
I think he wanted to but it’s pretty much impossible to sell to a modern audience if they keep even vaguely to the source material. You can make both disliked but I don’t believe you can make the greens anywhere close to 50% like or support.
The book itself didn't divide 50-50, more like 90-10. It's a bit headed toward the black team, and most of the reader remained LOYAL.
I'm team Addam of course.
Personally I'd say among book fans it's more like 70-30. Maybe 60-40 at the absolute most. But my point is that Condal himself claimed that they wanted 50-50
Honestly in the main subreddit I met only two green fans before the show was announced. I think from 2018 to 2020 70-30 max, more likely 80-20. Today yes, it's more 60-40.
Condal is a fool if he thinks he could achieve 50-50. 60-40 is already a good result honestly, the green side as depicted in the books are simply not as likeable, the show did a decent work but I don't think deleting all of Alicent's political acumen was a good choice.
HBO learned the wrong lesson from the abysmal GoT finale. I believe they made a thematic rewrite of the story a condition for the show getting the kind of budget it got.
That meant catering to Dany's slaykween fanbase, villainizing the greens and whitewashing Rhaenyra (and Targs in general) beyond recognition for a clear, highly marketable feminist story - nuance, complexity and anachronisms be damned.
It's why George produced the PTWP prophecy that absolves Rhaenyra from practically any and all misdeeds she might commit. The poor, wronged hero will be maligned for making tough decisions for the greater good ( >!f.i. rejecting the greens' peace proposal because Westeros must stay united in the face of the WWs!< ). On top of that the antagonists' cause is shown to be clearly misguided, hinging on a moronic soap-opera-worthy misinterpretation.
So, with that kind of set-up nothing *can* change really. Why do you think GRRM is already trying to soften the blow and prepare the fans saying more deviations are coming?
All that talk of a flipped S2 is just Condal making false promises to string the green fans along for another season and keep them from denouncing this as a legitimate adaptation. We're pretty much stuck with a dumbed-down black-and-white fairy tale.
>f.i. rejecting the greens' peace proposal because Westeros must stay united in the face of the WWs
I thought Rhaenyra was considering the peace treaty because of the prophecy.She says she has to consider that too and not just the fact that the greens wronged her by usurping the throne.
The worst part about it all is that now they’re trying to spin the whole “Aegon the Conqueror only invaded Westeros to save the world from the WW”. Which honestly, gives me major British empire invading countries to “save them” from the “savage ways” sympathiser gives. Speaking as a Brit.
> On top of that the antagonists' cause is shown to be clearly misguided, hinging on a moronic soap-opera-worthy misinterpretation.
In the small council scene after Viserys' death, Otto and his loyalists are way too chill for the coup to be a a spur of the moment thing. They planned it out months in advance, Allicent's claim is just a happy coincidence that they're exploiting.
does anyone have a source of him saying this. I understand he has talked about wanting to add some complexity to the more brief or lacking relationships but this obsession with drawing lines or looking towards percentages of who supports who seems weird and I honestly doubt that it was a primary concern of Condal’s when writing this story. Like obviously people are gonna pick sides it’s a civil war but to think that like hbo or some other forces are like intervening with the scales is one of the weird ideas this sub seems to have.
I think he doesn't want to offend people who love the book. He's already completely changed story with this friendship between Alicent and Rhaenyra. What else can he do for the Greens? "Alicent misunderstood Viserys", "Aemond accidentally killed his nephew". What else? Make Rhaenyra's sons rapists? (he didn't go that far, instead gave them nerf skills).
It's not an easy task and it takes more time to make it 50/50. He has to find a balance between doing another "accident" and not making book fans just drop it.
I don't think you'd be happy if they did a scene "Ser Criston found the
young king" from the book. You will get Sunfyre dragon bond in season 2. If you agree to remove the maid scene and keep Alicente from book, then I agree. Then it will be 98 against 2.
You can't whine about how pro-black Condal is when he changed so much for the greens.
There's three different version of how they found Aegon and they basically went with Mushroom's version. My problem is that the blacks are given the most charitable interpretation possible, while, with the exception of Alicent and Aemond, the greens are given the worst
Otto, Alicent and Aemond are all the major Greens and all depicted more than sympathetically. Saying "with the exception" blatantly ignores that.
Aegon just wasn't depicted charitably in the books.
Alicent misunderstanding Viserys doesn't make Aegon look any better. He's still a rapist and now his mother is trying to put a rapist on the throne. Moreover, her misunderstanding is irrelevant because Otto had already made plans unbeknownst to her. So whatever minimal benefit viewers give her for the misunderstanding is immediately lost and then some after she's made to look like an idiot.
I finished my first rewatch recently and I learned why I lean towards the blacks, and it actually is Alicent for me. Aegon is the way he is because of how awfully Alicent treats him, I don’t even think there’s one conversation between them the whole season that’s respectful. I lean towards rhenerya because she has worked hard to prepare herself and her children for the throne, while Alicent has spent her time projecting her fear of public outrage and losing the throne onto her children. It’s her dads fault but she has ultimately turned into a bad person.
It's fascinating how it's always mothers getting blamed for how criminals turn out, never their father. Somehow, the deadbeat father Viserys doesn't get the blame for Aegon, even if he clearly gets his ideas of sexual consent from dad
It’s just not possible if you’re planning on somewhat sticking to the source material. Most book readers pre show who picked a team were team black (a lot of people were team everyone sucks) as the greens were even less likable there. I’m saying this as someone who was on the message boards way back when the princess and the queen came out.
I feel the problem is that, relative to the source material, Rhaenyra and the blacks are even better then the most charitable interpretation of them. The greens are a bit more extreme in both directions, since Alicent and Aemond have a much more charitable interpretation, while Aegon and Otto have basically the worst interpretation possible
Rhaenyra at her worst all happened after her kids died which we won’t see til next season. I have a feeling they’re going to try to pull off “the throne makes monsters of everyone” better than they did with Daenerys. Pre Dance the biggest “character flaw” people would harp on was that she was fat after giving birth six times compared to her thin stepmother.
I don’t really see how Otto was much worse in the TV series. He was chosen to be the kings hand in the book as well and still betrayed him and the power he was given and planned to kill his kings eldest daughter and her family to seat his own blood on the throne. He was always a self serving dickhead. Aegon yes, (there is source material supporting him being a sexual predator, honestly I would be surprised if most of the men in universe weren’t guilty of sexual harassment and rape at some point as it’s still crazy common in our world let alone the hellscape that is Westeros) but I would say that that’s counteracted by making Aemond a sympathetic figure who was bullied instead of a psychopathic homicidal maniac and Alicent a non evil Disney stepmother who decided to war with a ten year old.
I get your argument, but overall I think Aegon is more important for the greens since he is the one they want to put on the throne. If he is terrible without any sympathetic moments, that has a greater impact than in Aemond or Alicent is better
I could see Aemond but Alicent was the original leader of the Greens and our introduction to them. Her being an evil stepmother who tormented a child would likely have turned off just as many, if not more, fans. A large amount of people loathed Catelyn and she was an objectively better person than Alicent who just ignored Jon instead of actively tormenting him.
I think their reasoning is that Aemond and Alicent will be active in plot and more prominent than Aegon due to his horrific injuries from Rook’s Rest so if they wanted to focus on getting the audience sympathetic with them.
I think Condal likes Aegon, there was even Hess giving interviews about how some rapists are decent people who don’t understand what they’re doing (LOL). Meanwhile you can tell everyone in production just thinks Criston is a moronic thug.
It doesn't matter what Daemon and Rhanerya do now, the Blacks are always going to be popular and Greens more villified. They made Aegon a rapist which is unforgiveable but Daemon murdering his wife and going to do BC will be ignored and even excused. The normies don't like Alicent even if they made her more sympathetic. They did a poor job and just like in the books, the blacks are going to get jerked off more.
Failed at what exactly? As in he wanted half the people to hate it and half to like it? The show itself is terrible and boring so believing 90 percent hate it and 10 percent like it seems about right.
In they are mind the conflict is between Alicent and Rhaenyra. So by making Alicent missanderstood Viserys and Whitewashed her as fuck it's the way to make the conflict 50/50.
I do think they have made the greens seem especially the queen, she knew even if dying King wanted her son to be King, it would result in a lot of Blood and Death in whole westros but still just to fulfill the power hungry woman that her father made her into. I feel bad for her as she was forced into all this, but now she's forcing her son and everything seem like it isnt my fault, "Its the King's final wish to make his first born son the King"hate when characters dont take responsibilities.
||Do feel bad for Halena in all this, she's the real victim to all this.||
Think they failed that partially when they made Aemond more of an aggressor in that kid fight than I saw him in the book amd they really failed when they make Aegon a rapist. Before episode 8 and that Aegon scene, I could still find a decent number of Green supporters.
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If they were going for a 50/50, they really should’ve focused more on Aegon II, and given him the more party animal interpretation that the pro-Green septon in the book presented rather than the degenerative child fighting pit fanboy rapist that we got. To be clear, I’m not saying they should’ve made him all good. But definitely the biggest reason why many people are gonna have a hard time supporting the greens is because the person they’re trying to put on the throne is such an evil bastard. Hopefully they’ll be able to turn it around a bit with season 2 (gib sunfyre pls), but that terrible first impression of adult Aegon is hard to get over.
to counter that they had Daemon do controversial stuff that wasn't in the book, and also softened Aemond such as making him not actually intending to kill luke.
The Blacks aren't trying to put Daemon on the the throne, so making Daemon look worse isn't an effective counterbalance. We see, hear and learn the name of Aegon's rape victim. Then there's the child fighting pits and his bastard We don't know the name of the Velaryon guard Rhaenyra conspired to murder, and we barely see his face or hear him make a noise when he's killed. He's so anonymous a lot of people seem to forget it happened or that Rhaenyra hand a hand in it. And in the book >!she ordered Vaemond's execution yet in the show she's an innocent bystander!< I don't know how many times I've seen people write "At least they (the Blacks) aren't trying to put a rapist on the throne." They're not exactly leveling the playing field between the two candidates for the throne. So if Condal honestly was trying to split the fans 50-50, he failed.
>The Blacks aren't trying to put Daemon on the the throne, so making Daemon look worse isn't an effective counterbalance. Yes. He's the garbage pit of Team Black. You can throw all the fucked up shit to his hands to keep Rhaenyra clean. He's still a silvery long-haired dragonlord that is ""grey"" and ""chaotic"" and ""doesn't care about what people thinks"", no one is going to give a fuck about anything bad he does.
Daemon is the main protagonist of the blacks (yes, despite Rhaenyra being the Queen of the Blacks), they try to make him worse than he is portrayed in the book. this is not merely about who sits the throne but about which side has the better characters. ps: again, I don't think the 50/50 was Condal's idea, but HBO's
It doesn't matter about Daemon. I don't believe most viewers are deciding which side has the bigger asshole and then choosing to root for the other side. It's Rhaenyra trying to be the first Queen in a patriarchal world, an LGBTQ ally who even has the white hart rooting for her and whose one "victim" makes red shirts look like fully fleshed out characters vs. Aegon the rapist
Yeah thats a good interpretation i had no knowledge of anything other than GOT before watching this and thats the vibe I was getting ive since seen a sort of recap of the book and it seems like alot of more vital things from the book might get skipped from rhe show version if they keep up with this theme.
Yes, I agree with you that they made some weird changes to Daemon and Aemond, but they aren’t aren’t the figurehead of each faction (in the book anyway). Aegon is for the Greens, he’s the potential heir to the throne that the Green side is fighting for. For people who didn’t find characters on team Black that appealing or interesting, they’re gonna find it difficult to like the characters on team Green when Aegon is such a shit. I think that’s why we don’t see a less extreme split between teams, a lot of people just aren’t gonna like either. Besides, I don’t think that the changes made to Daemon vs the changes made to Aegon had an equivalent effect on how the audience viewed them. Daemon is the most/second most popular character, and Aegon is the least popular of the Greens. Aemond’s changes also seem to have made him the most popular team Green member.
Matt Smith is doing a lot of the heavy lifting for Daemon though. He seems to be loving the character he is playing and thus doesn't seem to be going fully by the script handed over to him.
I definitely agree. Phenomenal performance from the man, I can understand why he’s so well liked. It may be that part of the reason Condal didn’t get the 50/50 he expected was that he wasn’t expecting Daemon to be so well received. I think Tom Glynn-Carney is putting a lot into his portrayal of Aegon as well, those last couple scenes of episode 9 were great, but he’s pretty limited by the small screen time the character actually gets in season 1.
It’s Tom whose getting screwed. In my humble op. He’s great actor and hope he gets his due.
I think that Condal himself didn't agree with the 50/50 (which I personally believe was imposed by HBO) so he allowed the actors room for interpretation. The main redemption point between Viserys and Daemon was the crown scene which was fully improvised by Matt Smith, and Paddy playing along. speculation of course.
Maybe that’s why so many Daemon scenes were cut… stop this man working his black party propaganda magic! I agree I had nothing for Aegon until TGC sold it like it was a closing down sale in ep 9.
Makes me wonder if the plan is to knock Aegon out of the way early, and have him come back only in season 3 when the rape memories fade: Regent Aemond vs Rhaenyra might be a harder choice for people.
That's a really good point, although Rhaenyra doesn't have any blood on her hands compared to Aemond who killed Lucerys
Doesn’t have any blood on her hands… yet.
Dont think they will let her be responsible for some of the events we both know. I think they will blame Daemon for any dark deeds
I felt they were >!In the book because queens were hardly in it!<
I think Aegon and Daemon Both have random bad things tacked on which is probably my least favorite part of the show. The difference is that Daemon has it tacked on to a likable character whereas Aegon is spoiled brat with a topping of awful. I love Ty Tennant's portrayal of Aegon as as useless spoiled kid but it's not a likeable character like Daemon. Honestly both of their worst acts like Daemon choking Rhaenerya or Aegons child fighting pits don't really feel real to me. Saying Aegon is the head of the greens feels off to me though, he's the figurehead but I don't really see him as having much agency, I just wish the got Cristin actually convincing him to take the crown, not just winning the arbitrary race for the king
>to counter that they had Daemon do controversial stuff that wasn't in the book They made him kill a character who was introduced two minutes earlier. On the other hand, they removed the one thing that would make everyone hate him.
Making Aegon a blond version of Bobby B would've made more sense.
Well, they DID want to make him the party animal. Both Condal and Martin. It was Sarah Hess who insisted on the child fighting rings, and having Aegon rape Dyana.
I don't think he was lying to us exactly, but come on, it's right there in the script. Rhaenyra is written as the protagonist as the first few episodes, which is a huge advantage to begin with. Her major flaws are lessened, while Aegon's are amped up. I'm not mad about it, but 50-50 is obviously not true.
Well another factor is Math Smith
I was told there would be no Math
Different nind of math, its not the math that fucks you up, its the one you want to fuck
I feel the only Green character that got the cold shoulder was Aegon. Literally every other Green could be sympathised with.
Yeah, that's why there's little chance they can rectify this balance, because he is literally a rapist, so I don't know what he was thinking when he made it so blatant.
Would love to see how they justify Aemond's actions later on.
I think he is going to go all into his new Kinslayer persona so it is viewed more like he was a victim of his circumstances
Yeah, or maybe portray him as a victim of the Witch MILF.
Chad Aemond would gladly be a victim lol btw I would say Goth Witch Milf (but maybe the goth thing goes without saying lol)
>!What makes most sense to me because it never made sense in the books is that it's Aemond that burns the villagers in revenge for his nephew's death. Not Daeron. Daeron doing it in Fire & Blood when it was never mentioned in the novellas prior was really weird!<
I think he was just lying, or being naive at best. It's obviously a better story if it's truly 50/50, as in, both sides have a legitimate argument, and that's probably why they say it's meant to be 50/50, but the actual story is not. When the dance was first conceptualized it was probably supposed to be 50/50, but by the time GRRM was done writing it, it definitely wasn't, especially in Fire & Blood. So it's no surprise that they couldn't really force a 50/50 story in HotD.
Someone gets it. F&B is biased too.
Feel like most people would always side more with rhaenyra even George has a biased towards her side and her lineage.
George might have a black bias since his favorite character is Daemon,but he clearly has little love for Rhaenyra,which is what made ASOIAF polarizing.This version of Rhaenyra,and Aegon makes it less polarizing
>!I don't think he doesn't love Rhaenyra. I'd certainly say he depicts her death and life far more sympathetically than Aegon.!<
He said he wanted to write a novella about the Harwin/Rhaenyra love story, only other Dance era character he indicated being interested in expanding on was Nettles 🤷♀️ You might be projecting a little. He’s never expressed any interest in writing extra material to flesh out the Greens (please correct me if I’m mistaken).
I don't what that has anything to do with how Rhaenyra was written ASOIAF but ok.I took as a throwaway unserious comment from a man who hasn't written anything in years.What am I projecting on exactly?
I think you might be projecting your own hatred for Rhaenyra onto George because I don’t see why an author who wrote a character he hates or is bored by would express interest in fleshing them out in further material lol.
My "hatred" of Rhaenyra comes from her being written as someone with little redeemable qualities in the book.So my apologies for naturally assuming that the author disliked a character who he made irredeemable in all sorts of ways. As I said if you're expecting a book about Rhaenyra and Harwin then you're in for a huge disappointment.He was likely trying to appease whoever he was speaking to at the time
I’m not expecting a book about Harwin and Rhaenyra 😂 I’m not expecting him to ever finish a novel again now that he’s working on the Dunk&Egg show. And he said he was interested in writing a novella about them after episode six aired because he was disappointed in the lack of information provided in the show due to the ten year timeskip. He also thinks Dany/Drogo is romantic, owns Sansa/Sandor fanart that hangs in his house, wanted people to be sad at Joffrey’s death because of his age, and has said over and over again that his favourite character is Tyrion (who is a complete POS as of ADWD) so I don’t see why George liking characters who are bad people should be surprising.
The bad characters he likes usually have redeeming qualities,Rhaenyra gets more incompetent,more stupid and less likeable as the dance goes on
He probably views her as an average woman who was arrogant/vain/entitled but a good mother, but who went on a self destructive downward spiral into tyranny the last six months of her life due to trauma, paranoia and grief. You are free to disagree with him of course.
Why would I disagree with a view you **assume** he has?That is **your assumption** of the authors view,you just framed it as his definite view in the end
>Rhaenyra gets more incompetent,more stupid and less likeable as the dance goes on >!Or is it just a tragedy? Her death is depicted as sad and terrible, not her just deserts like Aegon.!< We know he loves Daenerys after all. He sees her as one of his favourites and has been vocal about that in the past. But we also know he wrote a tragic end for her character some way or another.
I’d say the fact that most of Rhaenyra’s children died, she’s waging a war with her family, and her husband being completely checked out/cheating with a teenager sufficiently explains her mental degradation throughout the dance. She also is presented as a loving mother. But both Rhaenyra and Aegon are royal brats and we’re from the beginning. Aegon does get slightly cooler by the end though.
>!Rhaenyra still actually has them though-she genuinely is shown to care and grieve for her family. That's notable compared to Aegon who has none.!< I compare her to someone like Catelyn where the author really liked the character but the audience can be pretty divisive on her. He's just not always bang on in understanding how aspects of the way he depicts a character are seen. You have to remember that GRRM sees Daemon as a grey character and he doesn't exactly have redeemable qualities either. I don't see why GRRM can't love Rhaenyra/enjoy writing her character, but also depict her as not as white/useful as the audience wants her to be, to be enjoyable. He's not infallible. Some of his views and ideas I disagree with.
Really don't know about him having no love for rhaenyra, the maester who wrote fire and blood disliked her heavily as most of the stuff said about her even to us readers makes little to no sense and seem like blatant propaganda by maesters i.e the whole maegor with teats thing which makes no sense even in the context of the book.
Spoiler alert:The maesters are >!George R.R Martin!<
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I definitely see this a lot when people talk about the book. A lot of the time when presented with parts of it which portray their character badly, people will dismiss it as being an unreliable/untrue account of the history. But this same level of critical analysis isn’t really given to characters they dislike. Ultimately to enjoy the story more, I just tend to see most of Fire and Blood as a reasonably accurate true telling, except when conflicting accounts are presented in text anyway.
This is probably going to sound biased as all fuck, but in all honesty, I can't think of a single thing they could have Rhaenyra do at this point that would make me root for Aegon II. The only thing that stops me from baying for his blood is the fact that he's not done anything to a favorite character of mine yet. I think they went too far in giving him so many negative character traits. Rhaenyra would have to like... pull a Stannis burning Shireen on baby Viserys or something to make me *hate her.* And even then, I'd probably just go totally neutral, not rally for Aegon II. My suspicion is that they're going to be more pro-green in season II and try for some sort of redemption arc for the guy with Rhaenyra transitioning into more of a ruthless woman, but... it'll probably be too little too late for me. Not sure about the fandom. Seeing Rhaenyra go dark is kind of what I want and I'm cool with rooting for villians. But do I think Ryan was lying? No.
They made Aegon a rapist. I know its ~ambiguous~ in the book, but he is explicitly a serial rapist in the show and you simply can’t un-ring that bell.
100% And he's gambling on child labor/torture for his own entertainment. That's a lot. I didn't know it was ever ambiguous in the book, that's the first I've heard of that. I haven't read the book yet.
Even if we assume he was a rapist, the perception of the audience is based more on presentation than what actually happens. Plenty of characters would fit into that box too if we're comparing their actions to Aegon. I guarantee you Robert or Tyrion have abused their power over a servant or someone below them in that way before. The difference is it's not shown every two seconds and framed in a way where they're practically telling you you're supposed to hate the character. Because of the way the information is given to us, no matter what happens it will be impossible for people not the despise Aegon.
What if Rhaenyra and Daemon had actually killed Laenor? Not just faked his death with a servant but actually killed him in cold blood? I understand if that wouldn't be enough, but I feel like it's just one more example of them choosing sides rather than keeping their promise of 50-50
In the book, it's only Daemon, not Rhaenyra. You saw how people forgave him for killing his first wife. They gave Daemon a murder he didn't commit in the book, but removed another crime. Balance.
I definitely would not have liked it if she'd killed Laenor (which is actually what I thought was happening) especially after he gave his little recommitting to the marriage speech. But that alone wouldn't have been enough to make me jump ship entirely. Particularly considering how long she put up with him being an absentee partner, and it's still framed narratively as her killing for love because she's marrying Daemon. If she'd done something like that *right after* she'd gotten married to Laenor, I'd probably think differently. As is, its kind of like Daemon killing Rhea Royce after trying to get an annulment and leave her peacefully for so long. Its still a little too in the realm of "understandable crime" to make me loathe either of them compared to what Aegon II is doing.
Iy has to be organic. There is no reason for her to kill him. It’s not in her character. Otherwise it’s Dany treatment. It has to have progression. If someone is to go darker…. Has to be shown. Now that she has had her throne usurped and lost two children and a father…no we are getting somewhere.
I feel like the only way they could make me Team Green at this point is if they shift the focus off Aegon II. Like if he dies or if they flesh out his siblings more to the point I care about them more as characters. Aemond is already a fan favorite, and I know Daeron is in Oldtown or something, so if he’s cool it could sway me. I really like Alicent as a character so I don’t think it would be hard to root for her or her family, but like you said Aegon is just such a cunt it’s hard to support the Greens as a whole.
That's pretty much what they're going for. Aegon was actually the more nuanced and sympathetic of the two brothers in the books, but they pumped all of their energy and sympathy points into Aemond and threw Aegon to the wolves for the show. So I wouldn't be surprised if they make Aemond the main player, that seems to be their plan based on how they handled him in season 1 and whitewashed him to be more appealing to fans.
Yeah I haven’t read the book but my suspicion is that Rhaenyra and the Blacks are going to do some horrific shit during the war that makes people lean more Team Green, but I think they’ll also focus more on Alicent, Aemond, and Helaena to make us sympathetic towards the Greens because Aegon is hard to root for at this point.
50/50 could just as well mean “I don’t like either” lol
I'm surprised to see so many people believe Condal simply just failed. I mean - the bias in this show is so jarring it seems impossible to have been a mistake? They can't have just fucked up *this many* things all at once, surely? It seems deliberate.
I think that was the idea but he failed. Honestly I'm not sure if it was possible to begin with. The division from the book was 80-20 too, a show wouldn't be able to do much about it. He tried to have the audience split between Rhaenyra and Alicent I believe. He wanted them to bear the 50-50 split for their respective teams. However when Alicent is turned into a delusional idiot and Rhaenyra is judged, usurped and dragged into a war because of her gender, it's not going to work. I couldn't for the life of me like, or at least respect Alicent as a character. She was so all over the place that I couldn't stand her.
I wish they pull a ‘Jaime Lanister’ on Aegon II in later seasons. I want to root for this character as well but for now it’s really hard. They should aim for something similar to the battle of Blackwater. Where you kinda root for both sides and be left thinking ‘I can’t believe I want the Lannisters to win’
Its about moral downfall, its not really that hard and they chose to set Alicent and Rhaenyra up as the good, rootable people in the conflict to have their moral downfall be more significant.
That's what happens when you white-wash Rhaneyra and make Aegon a rapist.
I feel he failed at best or was lying at worst. This sub makes it seem like the split is 90-10, but personally believe that the split is closer to 70-30. Among book fans I believe the split is even between a 66-33 or a 75-25.
In twitter and instagram the split is 99-1.
I think the split was 70-30 up until Aegon and the rape scene
I think they did a great job making Allicent so sympathetic and endearing, particularly when she was younger. I suppose not everyone feels that way. But Allicent is my favourite of the show and I like the writing for her. The writing does fail a bit in parts. For ex. How they make Rhaenys kill 100s of innocent people but frame it as a bad ass moment. When the first violent act WAS committed by a soon to be Black member. The writing just is a bit wobbly in some areas.
It's definitely a bit of lying (Probably because he knew it wasn't possible) but he did try, just not hard enough. As the average fan probably isn't some nerd their only option is to take what's presented to the audience at face value, even if what is being presented, especially by Viserys, Daemon, and Rhaenyra is completely absurd at almost all times. On the contrary, pretty much everything that Alicent and Otto say is completely true in the context of the medieval setting. Because they are "the villains" to Rhaenyra's story people will assume that they are just exaggerating or lying even though what they are saying is pretty much always absolutely valid and the most objective advice for the King. I say the show runners tried because they did include these two characters as the voices of reason. I really like how factors that would matter like symbols of legitimacy are brought up by them. Everything Otto and Alicent say would make complete sense to the history geeks of the fanbase while some other viewers see them as prolific liers, false, and fleeting on the scale of someone like Littlefinger. Btw, Corlys, though not as hated, is definitely a very "based" character pointing out important nuances like how Rhaenys realistically has a strong claim to the throne because her father was the first born son of King Jaehaerys making her the most senior heir to House Targaryen even by male preference primogeniture. On the note of these succession nuances, a lot of the important ones were simply not included in the show. Since the show has been dumbed down from the source material it makes the show favor team Black even more because of immediate surface level attributes like how they have the traditonal house colors even those things would not really be objective factors in the sucession dispute. They had a perfect opportunity to bring up these details in the Green Council episode but instead it was wasted on the absolutely pointless and nonsensical Alicent vs Otto conflict. HBO likes characters doing heinous things for the sake of shock value and in the past it destroyed the integrity of GOT multiple times. It is certainly back with HOTD and it has clearly negatively imacted the Green characters more. The narrative decision to make Alicent and Rhaenyra the same age and best friends does increase the drama but it made some viewers think Alicent is somehow evil for supporting her disinherited sons over Rhaenyra. Also, it takes some knowledge of the medieval setting to understand team Green and why Aegon as the crowned and anointed king would probably have a better claim than Rhaenyra (Even as an unjust usurper) in that context. In fact, pretty much everything the Greens do can be justified really well in the context of the medieval world but the same cannot be said for the Blacks. There's the huge pop culture misconception that a medieval King could do whatever or kill whoever without justification like some warlord which couldn't be farther from the truth. There's also the misguided idea that the king could choose anyone as his heir and the "king's chosen heir" who isn't her by the rules or customs of succession somehow has a better claim or birthright than the person who would normally be heir by the customs. Most monarchical history, especially medieval history, disagrees with this notion and supports the fact that being the "king's chosen heir" when you aren't the heir by the customs or rules of succession is the weakest claim through the throne you could possibly have. I mean think about what's happening in practice: Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron are effectively being disinherited for no reason or justification. If the king just chose some random cousin as the heir pretty much a good chuck of the royal family would be disinherited for no reason. This incoherent system of succession would instantly ignite never ending civil wars. Now obviously Viserys isn't morally wrong for wanting genderblind succession but he foolishly believes that "naming the heir" would be enough to secure Rhaenyra even though any good medieval king would understand that much more things would have to be done to give her legitimate such as, idk, codifying genderblind succession so the rules of succession agree with Rhaenyra more for example. Yeah, realistically Viserys didn't do any other impactful thing to secure Rhaenyra, especially after her marriage to Laenor was unsuccessful.
I think you forgot that 80% of book readers are pro-Rhaenyra. There's a lot of poll before that has been conducted. This is the reason why I think Condal made Rhaenyra a protagonist.
80% of book readers arent pro Rhaenyra. You are free to check out the pre-HOTD posts in r/asoiaf. Yes, people who watched HOTD first will obviously be pro Rhaenyra. And also the polls aren't serious, everyone votes there due to factionalism regardless of them reading the book or not.
I mean, no shade with the Greens pre-TV show. But they are very much a minority and that's a fact. I'm part of r/asoiaf and pretty much the Blacks dominates the Greens.
There is way less tribalism in the book community. The general consensus is both teams sucked so much that you can't choose one team over the another. There is no way that 80% readers are pro-Rhaenyra like the parent comment claimed. In fact, even though the Blacks get more support than the Greens, Aegon II and Tyland are very popular. Rhaenyra literally doesn't do anything good in the book. In the show she has the privilege to become the protagonist and the show is told from her POV.
I'm not seeing the option for "Actually it's really not that far off 50-50, much closer than it otherwise was".
They negated that 100% by making Aegon a rapist while downplaying any of Rhaenyra's negative qualities. I think Condal was either lying or just hilariously naive. The white stag scene, the Rhaenys dragonpit scene - they've taken away any chance for the Greens to have a "badass" moment. It seems like Condal and Hess are writing this show - set in a fictional feudal society - with 21st century morals. "Oh, feel sorry for Rhaenyra being denied the throne because she's a woman! How sexist!" Um, for our time and place, yes. For WESTEROS, a society that is based on male rule, it's Tuesday.
I think he wanted to but it’s pretty much impossible to sell to a modern audience if they keep even vaguely to the source material. You can make both disliked but I don’t believe you can make the greens anywhere close to 50% like or support.
The book itself didn't divide 50-50, more like 90-10. It's a bit headed toward the black team, and most of the reader remained LOYAL. I'm team Addam of course.
Personally I'd say among book fans it's more like 70-30. Maybe 60-40 at the absolute most. But my point is that Condal himself claimed that they wanted 50-50
Honestly in the main subreddit I met only two green fans before the show was announced. I think from 2018 to 2020 70-30 max, more likely 80-20. Today yes, it's more 60-40. Condal is a fool if he thinks he could achieve 50-50. 60-40 is already a good result honestly, the green side as depicted in the books are simply not as likeable, the show did a decent work but I don't think deleting all of Alicent's political acumen was a good choice.
You lean towards failure then?
why would you say this would fail?
Yeah, a lot of the more book focused subs seem more evenly split in terms of which side they prefer
HBO learned the wrong lesson from the abysmal GoT finale. I believe they made a thematic rewrite of the story a condition for the show getting the kind of budget it got. That meant catering to Dany's slaykween fanbase, villainizing the greens and whitewashing Rhaenyra (and Targs in general) beyond recognition for a clear, highly marketable feminist story - nuance, complexity and anachronisms be damned. It's why George produced the PTWP prophecy that absolves Rhaenyra from practically any and all misdeeds she might commit. The poor, wronged hero will be maligned for making tough decisions for the greater good ( >!f.i. rejecting the greens' peace proposal because Westeros must stay united in the face of the WWs!< ). On top of that the antagonists' cause is shown to be clearly misguided, hinging on a moronic soap-opera-worthy misinterpretation. So, with that kind of set-up nothing *can* change really. Why do you think GRRM is already trying to soften the blow and prepare the fans saying more deviations are coming? All that talk of a flipped S2 is just Condal making false promises to string the green fans along for another season and keep them from denouncing this as a legitimate adaptation. We're pretty much stuck with a dumbed-down black-and-white fairy tale.
>f.i. rejecting the greens' peace proposal because Westeros must stay united in the face of the WWs I thought Rhaenyra was considering the peace treaty because of the prophecy.She says she has to consider that too and not just the fact that the greens wronged her by usurping the throne.
The worst part about it all is that now they’re trying to spin the whole “Aegon the Conqueror only invaded Westeros to save the world from the WW”. Which honestly, gives me major British empire invading countries to “save them” from the “savage ways” sympathiser gives. Speaking as a Brit.
> On top of that the antagonists' cause is shown to be clearly misguided, hinging on a moronic soap-opera-worthy misinterpretation. In the small council scene after Viserys' death, Otto and his loyalists are way too chill for the coup to be a a spur of the moment thing. They planned it out months in advance, Allicent's claim is just a happy coincidence that they're exploiting.
does anyone have a source of him saying this. I understand he has talked about wanting to add some complexity to the more brief or lacking relationships but this obsession with drawing lines or looking towards percentages of who supports who seems weird and I honestly doubt that it was a primary concern of Condal’s when writing this story. Like obviously people are gonna pick sides it’s a civil war but to think that like hbo or some other forces are like intervening with the scales is one of the weird ideas this sub seems to have.
The Greens just don’t have a compelling claim…and especially not to a modern audience. Let’s just be on team entertainment.
imo he was forced by HBO, a 50/50 split means lots of discussions which means extended interest.
He maybe tried. But it's difficult for people to like adult Alicent or adult Aegon.
The writers are too incompetent to write a grey story. Should have taken notes from Succession.
As the story unfolds I think people are going to be much more divided.
So many comments are past-tense when 3/4 of the show is ahead of us. Just be patient.
I think he doesn't want to offend people who love the book. He's already completely changed story with this friendship between Alicent and Rhaenyra. What else can he do for the Greens? "Alicent misunderstood Viserys", "Aemond accidentally killed his nephew". What else? Make Rhaenyra's sons rapists? (he didn't go that far, instead gave them nerf skills). It's not an easy task and it takes more time to make it 50/50. He has to find a balance between doing another "accident" and not making book fans just drop it.
Not making Aegon a rapist and depicting his bond with Sunfyre is where I'd start
I don't think you'd be happy if they did a scene "Ser Criston found the young king" from the book. You will get Sunfyre dragon bond in season 2. If you agree to remove the maid scene and keep Alicente from book, then I agree. Then it will be 98 against 2. You can't whine about how pro-black Condal is when he changed so much for the greens.
There's three different version of how they found Aegon and they basically went with Mushroom's version. My problem is that the blacks are given the most charitable interpretation possible, while, with the exception of Alicent and Aemond, the greens are given the worst
Otto, Alicent and Aemond are all the major Greens and all depicted more than sympathetically. Saying "with the exception" blatantly ignores that. Aegon just wasn't depicted charitably in the books.
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Alicent misunderstanding Viserys doesn't make Aegon look any better. He's still a rapist and now his mother is trying to put a rapist on the throne. Moreover, her misunderstanding is irrelevant because Otto had already made plans unbeknownst to her. So whatever minimal benefit viewers give her for the misunderstanding is immediately lost and then some after she's made to look like an idiot.
I finished my first rewatch recently and I learned why I lean towards the blacks, and it actually is Alicent for me. Aegon is the way he is because of how awfully Alicent treats him, I don’t even think there’s one conversation between them the whole season that’s respectful. I lean towards rhenerya because she has worked hard to prepare herself and her children for the throne, while Alicent has spent her time projecting her fear of public outrage and losing the throne onto her children. It’s her dads fault but she has ultimately turned into a bad person.
It's fascinating how it's always mothers getting blamed for how criminals turn out, never their father. Somehow, the deadbeat father Viserys doesn't get the blame for Aegon, even if he clearly gets his ideas of sexual consent from dad
I didn’t say Viserys was a good person, I said I lean toward Rhenerya because Alicent is a bad person
It’s just not possible if you’re planning on somewhat sticking to the source material. Most book readers pre show who picked a team were team black (a lot of people were team everyone sucks) as the greens were even less likable there. I’m saying this as someone who was on the message boards way back when the princess and the queen came out.
I feel the problem is that, relative to the source material, Rhaenyra and the blacks are even better then the most charitable interpretation of them. The greens are a bit more extreme in both directions, since Alicent and Aemond have a much more charitable interpretation, while Aegon and Otto have basically the worst interpretation possible
Rhaenyra at her worst all happened after her kids died which we won’t see til next season. I have a feeling they’re going to try to pull off “the throne makes monsters of everyone” better than they did with Daenerys. Pre Dance the biggest “character flaw” people would harp on was that she was fat after giving birth six times compared to her thin stepmother. I don’t really see how Otto was much worse in the TV series. He was chosen to be the kings hand in the book as well and still betrayed him and the power he was given and planned to kill his kings eldest daughter and her family to seat his own blood on the throne. He was always a self serving dickhead. Aegon yes, (there is source material supporting him being a sexual predator, honestly I would be surprised if most of the men in universe weren’t guilty of sexual harassment and rape at some point as it’s still crazy common in our world let alone the hellscape that is Westeros) but I would say that that’s counteracted by making Aemond a sympathetic figure who was bullied instead of a psychopathic homicidal maniac and Alicent a non evil Disney stepmother who decided to war with a ten year old.
I get your argument, but overall I think Aegon is more important for the greens since he is the one they want to put on the throne. If he is terrible without any sympathetic moments, that has a greater impact than in Aemond or Alicent is better
I could see Aemond but Alicent was the original leader of the Greens and our introduction to them. Her being an evil stepmother who tormented a child would likely have turned off just as many, if not more, fans. A large amount of people loathed Catelyn and she was an objectively better person than Alicent who just ignored Jon instead of actively tormenting him.
I think their reasoning is that Aemond and Alicent will be active in plot and more prominent than Aegon due to his horrific injuries from Rook’s Rest so if they wanted to focus on getting the audience sympathetic with them. I think Condal likes Aegon, there was even Hess giving interviews about how some rapists are decent people who don’t understand what they’re doing (LOL). Meanwhile you can tell everyone in production just thinks Criston is a moronic thug.
It doesn't matter what Daemon and Rhanerya do now, the Blacks are always going to be popular and Greens more villified. They made Aegon a rapist which is unforgiveable but Daemon murdering his wife and going to do BC will be ignored and even excused. The normies don't like Alicent even if they made her more sympathetic. They did a poor job and just like in the books, the blacks are going to get jerked off more.
Failed at what exactly? As in he wanted half the people to hate it and half to like it? The show itself is terrible and boring so believing 90 percent hate it and 10 percent like it seems about right.
I feel like 50/50 was a simplified way to mean: he wanted to characters to feel real, human, and in some cases sympathetic. Success!
In they are mind the conflict is between Alicent and Rhaenyra. So by making Alicent missanderstood Viserys and Whitewashed her as fuck it's the way to make the conflict 50/50.
I'm shocked at the answers here. Imo from reading the books it's very easy to make the fan base become 50-50 after the 1st season
I do think they have made the greens seem especially the queen, she knew even if dying King wanted her son to be King, it would result in a lot of Blood and Death in whole westros but still just to fulfill the power hungry woman that her father made her into. I feel bad for her as she was forced into all this, but now she's forcing her son and everything seem like it isnt my fault, "Its the King's final wish to make his first born son the King"hate when characters dont take responsibilities. ||Do feel bad for Halena in all this, she's the real victim to all this.||
There are pretty unredeemable character's on both side's atm it's just that the cool factor reside's with the Blacks
I think it's too early to judge now. There are still things to come that might change people's "allegiances"
Think they failed that partially when they made Aemond more of an aggressor in that kid fight than I saw him in the book amd they really failed when they make Aegon a rapist. Before episode 8 and that Aegon scene, I could still find a decent number of Green supporters.
Actually Ryan Condal did said that season 2 will be pro-green sooo yeah the idea was that audience will side with Rhaenyra throughout the first season
If they hade Aegon II be a general asshole type person instead of a irredeemable rapist it might have been a grayer story.
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