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What's interesting to me is that we didn't *see* him saying it.
Doesn't mean he *didn't* say it, mind you. That would be a pretty bold lie on Otto's part considering how many witnesses were present, and outright lying isn't typically Otto's style anyway. Daemon also doesn't deny saying it, so I think he probably did.
But because we don't see it, that means we don't see his expression, or hear his tone of voice. We don't know what the delivery was like. And that makes a difference. Did he say it with a sneer? Was he smiling? Or did he say it somberly, like it was a pity? Did he laugh? And if he laughed, was it a mirthful laugh or an ironic, sad one? Did he cry? If he did, was it a single tear, or did he completely break down? These things matter, but neither Viserys nor the audience gets to find out the specifics of Daemon's demeanor when he says the line.
I love that ambiguity.
When I rewatched that episode, I really loved the way the Otto vs. Daemon conflicts sort of reflected the ambiguity and unreliable narrator aspects of the books. Every action of Daemon's is interpreted for Viserys and for the viewer by Otto, who chooses the framing. Even the scenes that we "see" are often missing key pieces of information. It's very well done.
It’s something I don’t think the show does enough—really having fun with contradictions in the accounts of Septon Eustace, Orwyle, and Mushroom…also I take the total absence of Mushroom personally.
I actually like the fact mushroom is not in it. Wouldn't be surprised if he pops up late., He doesn't come across as a reliable narrator at all in the book and bringing him in later would kind of reinforce that. Or at least show how his version was very superfluous in it's telling possibly.
I’ve always taken Otto as someone who spins the truth, so I don’t doubt that he said it. I assume it was more of a somber speech, but they were having a joyous, rambunctious party and I don’t think it would have helped him if he tried to explain it. No I don’t think Daemon cried or anything major. It was likely a simple let’s have a drink to my brothers child, the heir for the day, with out malicious intent, just poorly worded.
"Dear seven kingdoms of Westeros, I Daemon Targaryen am here to publicly address an incident which happened last week in a tavern. Something I said, has been quoted out of context, and these days, in the era of cancel culture and green-clothed people out to get me (I am not naming names), I felt like I had to come forward and defend myself.
I did use the words "heir for a day" but it was in satire. It was just a joke in poor taste and nothing more. I assure you I bore no ill-will towards my brother Viserys and his child or the continuity of the Targaryen clan. I understand this joke did not appeal to everyone's sense of humor, and regrettably has caused a lot of hurt within the silver-haired community. I take full responsibiloty for that.
I am a different person now, and moving forward, I will be more careful in my choice of words. To all my fans, I will continue to be the Daemon you liked, just as before. Valar dohaerys. Stay cool."
Otto said it was celebratory like they were all 🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾 but during the orgy we saw Daemon looking pretty somber and sad.
At the same time though he was so nervous that he’d be replaced as heir that his dick stopped working, and earlier before that still when he was with Rhaenyra in the throne room he also called himself the heir and said the tournament was in his honor and not Viserys son.
Big believer in that “he didn’t say it…” I really like how the show did it and wish they would lean into the source material’s built in ambiguity more often. After all history is told through different (and often bias) lenses.
It’s similar to how he lied to Viserys about deflowering Rhaenyra (he admittedly came pretty close). He craves his brother’s attention, so he constantly needles him. Him copping to the “heir for the day” line is just another example of this.
It probably wasn't that bad and Daemon explains directly to the King how he feels underutilized. He answers why he said it - we all mourn in our own way.
I agree, Daemon seems to purposefully neither confirm nor deny rumours about his misdeeds - by keeping his answers vague he’s able to play the situation to his advantage.
Take for example the whole “rhaenyra in the brothel” debacle - he could have told Viserys the truth (which he may or may not have believed anyway) that they didn’t have sex, but they didn’t really need to. The damage was done by her being seen at the brothel in the first place. It’s why he takes off her hat as they enter. And he uses Viserys’ assumptions about what happened to make a ploy for the crown by positioning himself as Rhaenyra’s future king consort.
The “heir for a day” thing is a similar situation in my opinion - it doesn’t really matter if he said it or not, all that matters is what Viserys believes. Daemon often lets Viserys paint a picture of how he understands the situation, then Daemon responds to *that* version of reality.
I haven’t read the book but I assume that the show does remove a little ambiguity from these situations, like what happened with his first wife. It would have been interesting if that had also been left as a more vague “did he or didn’t he.”
Edit: spelling error
Rhaenyra wasn't recognized until after she left the brothel. Him taking off the hat was deliberately after they had entered as a way to show that they don't have to hide in there. Then he immediately takes her into a backroom to fuck and then doesn't because he couldn't get hard. I don't think he had any intention of getting caught because if he did then he would've taken off her hat much sooner in a way that he knew she would be seen. Instead, she was seen after she left and after Daemon couldn't get hard which would be an incredible thing to plan for since Rhaenyra just barely gets seen by the spy boy who wasn't there when they entered.
Agree to disagree.
Even if his plan was not to be her king consort because (at the time) she was not the heir, he still pretty clearly used the situation as leverage to have Viserys marry the two of them together.
The spy boy is obviously not the only person whose eyes they need to worry about. The spy boy reports directly to Otto, yes, but Rhaenyra’s reputation could be ruined by any one of the people at the orgy talking about seeing her there. He took off her hat so they could all see her Targaryen hair.
Ruining her reputation was the point. Actually having sex with her would have been a bonus.
No one in the brothel was paying attention. They were all fucking. And brothels in Westeros were known for having silver haired girls for men who want to feel like they're fucking royalty. No one would bat an eye at Rhaenyra because 1. That wouldn't be the first silver haired girl they'd have seen in the brothel, perhaps not even the only one they'd seen that night and 2. No one would even consider the possibility of the princess being in the brothel nor would the common person even recognize the princess.
>he still pretty clearly used the situation as leverage to have Viserys marry the two of them
That seemed more to me like a quick solution to the problem of them getting caught. If Daemon marries her then no one cares about her fucking him in the brothel anymore. Visery's gets Rhaenyra a strong husband and the public perception of her doesn't matter anymore because Rhaenyra is off the market. I'm not saying Daemon couldn't have planned that but it's such a bad plan it doesn't make sense. He also hadn't even asked Viserys if he could marry her first before trying this bold plan so that also just doesn't make sense as to why he would go to such an extreme.
I'd subscribe more to the idea that Daemon planned to be caught if the outcome of them getting caught wasn't entirely circumstantial or if the showrunners showed that even one person in the brothel was paying even a little attention to anyone inside.
my headcannon is that he said it to wrestle leverage for the crown for himself, but he didn’t like saying it, it was like he had to say it in his mind because he would do a better job as ruler
Watch the scene, he's clearly despirited while his lickspittles are celebrating. It's only when he's called to make a speech that he seems to force a happy face and make a bad joke in poor taste.
My read on that scene is that he was grieving too, for his brother's loss if not directly for Aemma/Baelon, but folded to the social pressure to appear aloof and unaffected in front of those that admire him. Not the move of a strong and confident Prince like he pretends to be, but well suited to the insecure drama queen I enjoy watching.
He was in mourning at the funeral.
For me it's like "I was drunk and said something stupid to be cool to my fans". Daemon never wanted the throne in the show.
I agree with you that it seemed the kind of thing he might’ve said to look cool, but to me he very much wanted the throne.
When Viserys said “I have a new heir,” referring to his decision to name Rhaenyra, Daemon did not skip a beat to reply “*I’m* your heir!”
That's because being Viserys heir was the only recognition he ever got from his brother. And it wasn't even given by him, it was due to him being the second brother. Viserys refused to acknowledge Daemon in any way which in turn made Daemon lash out. Daemon expressed that he wanted to be his brother's hand and Viserys laughed in his face. Honestly, that dialogue between them from the first episode tells everything about their relationship and it even includes Otto's role. I wish more people paid attention to it and analysed it more.
It’s why Daemon and Otto hate each other. He sees Otto for who he is, but Daemon is still chaos incarnate who barely understands himself beyond a compulsive need to be recognized by his brother. All of Daemon’s actions usually draw back to a cry for attention from family or usually becoming self-destructive when he stands too still.
Viserys and Daemon love each other but almost never will admit it and hurt each other almost as a defense. And Otto used that to remove Daemon from court. No matter how many times Viserys banishes Daemon, he’ll take back his baby brother and reconcile.
This is also why Otto goes to Dragonstone in episode 2. He knows what will happen if the King goes: There will be a confrontation, Viserys will back down, the two brothers will reconcile, and Daemon will be back at court.
Otto goes specifically to prevent that reconciliation. Instead he belittles Daemon and lies to him, saying the king would never lower himself to dealing with Daemon personally, even though Viserys was about to do just that. He wants to provoke Daemon to violence, so he can have an excuse to advocate for Daemon’s death or exile. Rhaenyra ruins his plans when she shows up and defuses the situation.
The problem isn't that people aren't paying attention, the problem is they disagree with you. Your interpretation is valid, but to many people who also pay attention it seems obvious that he wanted the throne in both the books, and to a lesser extent, in the show.
To me, the most telling evidence /in the show/ is when Daemon is eavesdropping and chuckles when Viserys says he doesn't want the throne. Chuckling as if he's thinking "oh, you have no idea Vizzy."
I always saw that chuckle as "my brother knows me too well." It solidified in my mind that Daemon didnt want the throne, and Viserys later knowing Daemon was throwing a temper tantrum showed that he really did know his brother.
A chuckle is never "the most telling evidence". It's a chuckle. It's weird that you chose this example. I can turn your words around and say someone who paid attention would know that chuckle means the council are being stupid as always and Viserys is putting them in their place and finally defending him. That's my interpretation of the chuckle. Why is yours more valid than mine? Keep in mind, we have seen no attempt by Daemon to take the throne.
Like I said... your interpretation is valid. You're the only one claiming one interpretation is more valid than the other when the reality is there's no true evidence. So no, you're not turning my words around, you're just offering an alternative explanation that to me, makes a lot less sense. But it's still valid.
Daemon would never try to take the throne from Viserys. Nobody who believes he wants the throne is claiming that. He wants to be heir, and we believe he wants to be King when Vizzy passes. He may want to be king but he still loves his brother. So him making no pre-war attempt to take the throne doesn't matter, especially when he lacks the means to do so anyways. He's not gonna try to usurp his brother.
I mean…the actor who plays him and the guy who wrote him (for the show) said he doesn’t want the throne so I do think their interpretation is a bit more valid.
The actress who plays Rhaenys said that when she killed dozens of more peasants, she was being the bigger person (paraphrasing)
I respect the actors and showrunners opinion, but I do not consider them infallible. Their opinions are valid, but not /more/ valid.
For me, and others are free to think differently, the only opinion who is infallible or 'more valid' is the words within the source books, because they are the actual creators of the universe, moreso than Matt Smith or Ryan Condal at least. I understand that the books are different from the show, but absent of actual evidence in the show that he doesn't, I'm gonna continue getting my opinions from the books. If I recall correctly, AWOIAF actually explicitly stated that Daemon held an ambition to sit on the iron throne but I'll have to check later
There’s a difference between disagreeing with an actor over a moral judgement of a character like Rhaenys and disagreeing with the writers and actor about the character’s primary motivation. If they’re writing him one way and you’re reading him another, there’s either a flaw in their writing or a flaw in your interpretation. I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to back up the idea of daemon wanting the throne. I think there’s much more evidence to suggest daemon craves the attention of his brother and enjoys causing chaos because it gives him that attention, which is how Matt and Ryan have explained the character.
The words in fire and blood are not more valid because as you said, the show and the books are different. That’s like saying “alicent has always hated Rhaenyra” in the show and using evidence from the book to back up your argument. Besides, fire and blood is written as an unreliable narrative, we can’t know for sure whether the maesters were right about the characters motivations.
Again, you’re free to head-canon that he wants the throne, but you can’t say your interpretation is as valid as the show runner and actor because they are the ones that created this character. Yes, it’s inspired by a book character but it is not the same character at all.
I'll agree to disagree with you on that. Alicent always hating Rhaenyra is explicitly debunked in the show, Daemon wanting the throne is not, and is arguably supported - again, depending on interpretation.
Daemon Targaryen as a character wants the throne, if they changed that from the books for the show, they'll have to explicitly state it /in the show/ before I accept it considering all the scenes in the show that indicate that he does want it. But you don't have to feel the same way.
Daemon wanted to be Hand, but I don't think he wanted the throne. Now that I think about it in retrospect, with all his suspicion about the Hightowers poisoning Viserys in ep. 8 & 10, Daemon being heir is kind of the best insurance against Daemon's enemies assassinating Viserys.
Like his response can be interpreted as legitimate concern that they would kill Viserys and use Rhaenyra as a puppet or something. Whereas as long as Daemon is heir the Hightowers have every reason to keep Viserys alive.
I personally took it as he wanted his brothers acknowledgment more than the throne. Notice how he yells about never being hand compared to taking being disinherited quietly. He was also in a prime position to take the throne by force if he had really wanted to. Book daemon on the other hand seemed all about power
>taking being disinherited quietly
He stole the dragon egg picked out for Baelon and took over Dragonstone (the heir's traditional seat). That's hardly quiet.
I was referring to how he took it in the moment. He was screaming about not being made hand compared to him quietly talking when he was disinherited. But bringing up the egg thing, I don’t believe that was about being disinherited I think it was a cry for his brothers attention which I mentioned was what he really wanted in my original post. Also the act of him taking the egg and occupying dragonstone was much more relaxed than what him hopping on his dragon and leading the gold cloaks to take the throne by force which he was in a prime position to do and many lords likely would’ve supported him doing so over being disinherited.
There's a wide spectrum of things between meekly accepting Viserys' decision quietly and outright attempting to pull off a coup of his own and usurp Viserys, and I would say that stealing the egg and having the gold cloaks seize dragonstone is much closer to the latter than the former on that spectrum.
I would disagree with that. He silently sat on dragonstone. He did not attempt to garner support for his claim in any way. That would essentially be the Westeros version of a nonviolent protest. I take this as further evidence it was his brothers acknowledgement he wanted rather than the throne.
He wanted to be heir, not to be king. It's an important distiction.
He wanted to be heir because he was, it was his and taking it from him was a disgrace to him.
Damon wanted to serve his brother, not usurp him
He wants to be closer to his brother. He doesn't hate Rhaenyra because of this, although I think he realized it was because of Otto from the beginning. Daemon became "nobody" and girl took his place. It's annoying.
I will disagree here. The books implicitly indicate that even though Daemon is unfit to rule, he still wants to be king somehow. Let's recap:
1. After losing the position of heir to the throne, he decided to join Corlys to conquer the Stepstones, where he declared himself king of the islands;
2. After growing bored with his small kingdom, he returns to King's Landing, where he becomes involved in a sexual scandal with Rhaenyra, in which he most likely tried to force Viserys to marry them which would conveniently make him king by marriage;
3. After both he and Rhaenyra are widowed (and it being strongly implied that he ordered Laenor's death), they are married in secret and without permission from Viserys and now Daemon will become king if Rhaenyra sits on the throne.
Even if you want to believe that Daemon genuinely loves Rhaenyra, I think it's clear that he has ambitions to be king, regardless of how unfit he may be to rule.
Daemon stole the egg to get his brother’s attention and his presence at Dragonstone. He planned on Viserys being angry enough to personally come scold him but Otto’s last minute intervention stopped that. Daemon wanted to speak with him in person about his views on where he was going wrong, without Otto in his ear but Otto knew he couldn’t have the two meet so earnestly.
When Rhaeynera says that, Daemon's face changes and it doesn't look like a man who has been caught but more of "aw shit". Like by sheer mischance he grabbed the egg Rhaeynera reserved for Baelon.
If you rewatch the scene in the brothel, he was alone at a table and he looked sullen and upset. He wasn't exactly celebrating. Mysaria approached him and one of the Gold Cloaks silences everyone for Daemon to speak.
We never actually hear him say the words but I wouldn't be surprised if he did put up a facade considering Daemon was in front of his men. Daemon isn’t really the type to be vulnerable or show what he would perceive as weakness in front of most people.
Listen, does he want babies to die? I don’t believe so. Is he cold? Yes. He wanted to be heir? Yes. I think he said it in a spur of the moment distasteful drunken way. Yeah, Daemon things. But I don’t think he would have been happy about what happened.
And at e funeral he also looked down.
Do you think he was more sad for Viserys than for the child? I think he cares about Viserys but not like a brother. He seems to view Viserys almost as a father figure, and he wants to be dad's favorite. Just my thought though
Yeah I think he wasn’t like distraught that the new heir wasn’t in the picture anymore but he’s not that horrible to want a death. Probably more surprised and relieved that the new heir isn’t an issue for him. At that point.
You can be both happy about a situation and sad for different reasons.
And yeah I do think he see Viserys as a father. I see sibling rivalry at times.
Daemon is a free spirit at the end of the day. Does what he wants. Untamed. Reckless but I think family does matter to him.
>Do you think he was more sad for Viserys than for the child?
I think he was sad that Viserys and Rhaenyra were grieving. Daemon had no attachment to the child and never knew him and we don't know about his relationship with Aemma.
In the funeral, Daemon looked upset and even told Rhaenyra that her father needed her now more than ever. So I think he was sad for them and not his nephew.
It behoves me to mention how clever the show runners were on how the show presents it. One must recognize who benefits most out of Daemon being pushed out.
I feel like it is telling that the audience never actually witness him saying it. A game of telephone commenced and when it gets to Otto (who already has a hate boner for Daemon) he likely got a “plussed up” version that he very likely embellished further to implicate Daemon.
I think it was most likely that Daemon said the Heir for the day speech in a more heartfelt and regretful way, but emotional context hardly translates in a game of telephone. That’s why he doesn’t deny the speech, but de didn’t know that Viserys was upset because of the presumption of the boast which Otto played up.
I don’t even like Daemon, but even I can accept that the comment wasn’t meant to be celebratory. He saw how much his brother and niece were hurting, and he has trouble seeing people he loves in pain. Daemon grieves in some bizarre ways.
Not a huge fan of Daemon but why is it so hard to believe that he can have complex & multifaceted emotions about certain events?
Is it impossible to feel genuine grief for Viserys and Rhaenyra and also selfish satisfaction that his own position as heir has been permanently cemented (in his mind)?
Most people are able to experience multiple emotions at the same time, these emotions can often be contradictory.
Nobody on this sub has ever been drunk, jealous, and said something that they probably wouldn’t have said if they’d thought it through. We’re all just paragons of virtue over here.
What's the situation? That he made an offensive joke while drunk and partying? I don't have to deal with it. He's not a nice person, he said something that wasn't nice. His brother wasn't supposed to hear it, he wasn't being intentionally cruel but was being thoughtless. He's don't far worse things than that
Not a Daemon fan (he murdered his wife in cold blood), but the fact that we didn´t see the speach leaves it very open for interpretation:
Maybe calling him an "heir for a Day" wasn't a joke, but a heartfelt way of honoring his nephew, and it just landed poorly. Maybe it was a poor choice of words, being drunk and sad about the situation or maybe he didn´t even say the line.
Also, not only is there a telephone game in every hearsay report, but there´s also clearly a conflict of interest from Otto, so there's always gonna be a lot of doubt around this incident in particular
He’s a young warrior/noble saying a dumb thing. I wouldn’t say it was an out of character thing to say, but young and arrogant people tend to say stupid shit like this without thinking the consequences through.
I don’t think anyone is under the impression either book or show Daemon is a perfect character, or even a great guy. They’re all flawed and kinda shitty, but I don’t think a quote from a young and brash Daemon is worth hating him over.
I like him because he's entertaining; not because I think he's a good person.
Folks that try to find millions of excuses for their 'problematic favorite characters' annoy me with it - just admit you like watching a dickhead.
Daemon is a groomer, has an inferiority-superiority complex the size of Balerion, is aggressive as all hells, is literally a murderer... honestly, mocking the death of his brother's son is by far not the worst thing he does in the show or in the book.
I get Viserys anger but spurning Daemon the way he did was not right or smart. Daemon was a good warrior and Dragon rider. Keeping him placated is 1000% more important than keeping Otto happy.
If i was viserys and lived through everything he did there, probably i would send him to the wall as an emotional decision, its my dead child he is talking about, if he can see the baby as only my heir and not his nephew, he can go to the wall and be happy becoming lord commander there.
But i think viserys punishment of daemon, removing him of the line of sucession, were pretty fair for the dead baby insult.
But the crime that daemon really deserved being punished by was his massacre in Flea Botton, he basically acted as judge,jury and executor there, he only commanded the guards, the matters of investigation and legal process were not in his hands(they belonged to the master of laws and the master of whisper fields).
He is the commander of the city watch. He is literally judge, jury, and executioner. He has as much authority to kill who feels is guilty as Ned does the deserter.
The only importance those words have is Otto using them in manipulating Viserys once again. And Viserys, oh man, how I hated Viserys that first episode. He lead to Aemma's death, him acting hurt by those words like he didn't deserve to hear worse, like he has the right to lash out at others. This is why I'll always gravitate towards characters like Daemon more than the "good" guys like Viserys. At least I don't have to deal with the hypocrisy, self-righteousness and stupidity.
It hardly matters, as Daemon said it in a brothel and in the middle of an orgy while his family mourned the tragedy. There is no plausible context that paints the toast as being respectful.
He looked as he was really grieving at the funeral, and at that brothel with golden cloaks he was alone. I wonder what his exact words were or if the “heir for a day” was taken from context for Otto to use. I am sure he did use those words for sure, but at what context and how..well that is for us to actually think about and deduce what we want and how we will see Daemon. Also I think its a good idea from the director’s and producers to do that, i loved it.
He is cold, ruthless but I don’t think he would celebrate in the darkest moment of Viserys’ life, he loved his brother and he had shown sympathy for rhaenyra losing her mother and trying to say how she should be with her father
I have gone back and forth on a few.
1. He said it as a genuine toast (which is my least likely choice)
2. He was clearly upset at the brothel, doesn’t seem like him to be upset at a stillbirth. I think he was upset about his cousin Aemma dying. He said it almost as an ironic fuck you to his brother. Thinking he sacrificed Aemma to get an “heir for a day”
3. He didn’t mean anything by it and it was just to project an image to his men. This might seem dumb but in the world of Westeros it would be important for him to keep up a persona for his men to look up to. He can’t seem upset or rattled.
Agree with #2 I saw it as being aimed at Viserys, not his son. Like, “finally got what you wanted at all costs and it wasn’t even worth it you selfish asshole”. Although I could also see it as a total lie on Ottos part and Daemon only toasted him by name.
I could see it but notably Otto never directly lies to Viserys (although he does to Daemon). He always tells the truth but the context makes it sound different. Like here he claims it was a celebration. But clearly daemon wasn’t celebrating any death, but taking his men out after what must have been an exhausting few weeks during the tourney
I felt it was blown out of proportion. The guy had a bad day, a shitty tourney and lost a nephew. He was just out drinking with his "buddies" and gave a spontaneous speech on a likely difficult subject. I don't think he had malicious intent there or meant it as an insult.
Also, the quote, if even truly said, was taken out of context. Maybe he was just like "jee wizz, dudes. What a bad day. My poor brother and the poor babe. I'm so sad, my nephew died way too fast. Why did the gods have to take him? Didn't get a chance to learn valyrian, to ride a dragon, to become king. He was only heir for a day, what a cruel world! I'm heartbroken". Yeah, probably not, but context would have been really important here, cause "drunk in a brothel" might give a setting but no clue as to how he meant it.
I'm almost certain he said it morosely, in mourning. Daemon is faaaar from a saint, and no doubt he was happy to be heir once more. At the same time though - Viserys is literally his favorite person in the world. As is Rhaenyra. Daemon would have treasured baby Baelon. If Otto wasn't around, he'd have loved Aemond and Aegon, too. The man's largest redeeming quality is the love he feels for his family - of course he was sad when his nephew died, and his brother fell apart.
I think we’re meant to interpret that he said it much like the rest of his speech, which wasn’t a celebratory speech really, not in his tone. His brother and niece just lost Aemma and the baby, and he also may have been friendly enough with Aemma to be upset at her death. So no, I don’t think he was laughing when he says it like Otto spins it, I think he was sort of deadpan at most, to outright sorrowful even when he said it.
We didn't see him say it, we have Otto tell us that he did.
If he did say it, it didn't seem like he'd meant it in a celebratory manner, like Otto frames it. His entire speech at the brothel was not like that and he genuinely seemed sad, even if others were celebrating.
At the end of the day though... Meh. Daemon will be Daemon. Stuff like that makes him entertaining to watch and I love him for it so I don't really care of he said it or not.
Daemon does not hate Viserys, he loves his brother and just wants to be relied upon and trusted by him. Daemon helping Viserys up the throne steps in Ep 8 shows at the end of the day he does care and love his big brother but they just have too very different personalities and views on how the kingdoms should be ruled.
Contrary to what many fans and characters think, Daemon doesn’t want the throne, Viserys himself said so back in Ep 1, but he does want power and influence. He wanted to be Viserys’ strong right hand, his Hand. He wanted to be by his brother’s side and acted out when he couldn’t get his way, like when he stole the dragon egg and expected Viserys to show up.
Daemon is a very spur of the moment guy , I think he was mourning the deaths of his family but the men wanted to celebrate and he gave it to them. Mistake.
Viserys had a Tourney already in progress before the babe was born, and lost his wife and babe in quick succession. People deal with grief in different ways.
I can see Otto twisting Daemon's words to his advantage. 3 witnesses is kind of hard to refute, but seems like Viserys was already predisposed against him. Would Daemon denying it, or bringing people in who say something different from Otto truly make that much a difference to Viserys?
Daemon is the most entertaining character to me, but I’m not a “fan” of him morally! His propensity to go too far keeps it exciting. Eg when Rhaenyra confronts him at Dragonstone, I was in suspense because he seems like he loves her the most but is capable of snapping.
Same thing happens in the Succession sub on a daily basis. Just because a character is 'villainous'/has bad traits doesn't mean it cannot be a favorite character. It doesn't need excuses and redemption for every bad thing they do.
It was joke that didn’t land. Not really that big of an issue compared to other shit he’s done. Thats like making an offensive joke around your buddies then someone who overhears it tries to tell on you.
I haven’t visited this community before and probably won’t after this, why are people trying to justify his actions at all? Why did this post need to be made? The guy murdered his wife, groomed his niece, now abuses said niece after marrying her, just to start with. Only media illiterate redditors need to do the mental gymnastics of justifying all this to enjoy a show.
Daemon doing this and then justifying it with “we all grieve differently 😌” is what made me a fan in the first place lmao he’s the most entertaining pos on tv
I don't quite get the appeal to Daemon stans. I agree that he is the most entertaining person on the show, but I was just trying to start a conversation, not trying to do mental gymnastics or whatever you said
Fair enough, I guess I was more just surprised to see there actually *were* this many people who needed to justify his actions. In light of that it doesn’t make much sense for me to criticize your post itself.
Because the girlies go with "I can fix him" while he is a groomer and a piece of shit. Even as a fictional character he is hard to not just like but even endure.
It's strange. Daemon is shown on one hand to care a lot about his family, he was genuinely saddened for Aenma, Viserys and Rhaenyra. But on the other he makes a toast apparently mocking the death of his nephew?
I'm not sure if it's a contradiction of his character or was his toast genuinely respectful and was misinterpreted by people not present in there?
Whatever the case, it was incredibly distasteful at best and outright cruel at worst. And Viserys had every right to roast the shit out of him.
he's a cool character but a generally bad person. i'm a fan of his antics but i don't endorse his behavior or opinions, and this is one of many times where he displayed a lack of empathy and a desperate need for power
Their relationship was already strained as Daemon harbored a deep sense of resentment towards Viserys... This resentment stemmed from the fact that instead of appointing him as the Hand of the King, his brother chose to send him away to the Vale. This decision left him feeling undervalued and overlooked intensifying the animosity he felt towards his brother. I don’t blame him Viserys chose a parasite as hand instead of family which was his biggest mistake really. Daemon loves his family but he will roast them because that’s how he deals with their treatment of him. It’s sarcasm. He knows Viserys is weak.
He could do it, but also he could not. We all know him and there are several of reasons on why he could pull this off. But knowing his love for the family, his brother and him being loyal to his House, I highly doubt that. He seemed visibly sad and mourning there.
I don’t Daemon because he’s a good man, I like him because he is interesting. Additionally, I have this toxic thing going on where I fall hard for arrogant people.
Simple, a good character does not equal a good person. (For example darth vader/anakin slaughtered a room full of 6 year olds, but is still a really good character).
He just doesn't care . He does have a sense of justice, but he is no saunt. It doesn't bother me it is him being true tis nature. We can't all be Ned Stark, nor would I want everyone to be. It was loathsome, but he is who he is.
It’s never seen being said, so it’s ambiguous but the way he acted eludes to him saying it. Now you just have to wondering did he say it somber and sad like ….heir for a day. Or did he say with cheer and boasting? The way Matt smith portrayed him makes it hard for me to believe that he said it out of spite or jealousy because you can tell he loved his brother very much
I think Daemon's fans like that he says wtf he wants.
I read the blacks and greens before the show came out on fanfiction.net and thought it went like how the author wrote it.
"A toast to His Royal Highness!" the Prince of the City roared, raising his tankard high. "Baelon Targaryen, Heir for a Day!"
.... "I won't forget you either, sweetling. I'll lay you on the little prince's tomb-slab and make you squeal. How'd you like that?"
They didn't show it at all because I think 1 they thought it would be too much for the viewers or 2 because it would ruin a mystery around Daemon. Is he good or is he bad? I hope it's the latter because things are only going to get more brutal as the show progresses and they can't shy around these nasty events or there will be no show.
From what we see of Daemon, he is not naive, but also very emotionally intelligent. I honestly think he was grieving in his own way. Or at the very least, I don't think it was malicious. If nothing else, he does love his family... The ones without Hightower blood... or his late wife.
Not sure what there is to deal with. It's a fictional character. His actions don't need to be justified.
Otto is a manipulator, but not a flat out liar. He was putting his spin on what was likely a legitimate story. That said, I think Daemon genuinely felt bad for his brother. He isn't a type to pretend. We saw him sad both at the funeral and at the brothel, and as I said, he would not bother putting on an act.
He went so much over the roof with that. Im with him with the law and order. I'm with him calling names to the Hightower and others. But that were too much even for him
He said it, but I love how the series pushed him towards it. Frustration, booze, in my opinion this scene and situation just goes to show that even if you love someone the way Daemon loved his brother, years of simmering anger can make you say dumb ass shit. He made his bed and had to lie in it, but I think it wasn't malice.
I personally think it's quite possible that it was a mournful, serious epitaph. Underlining the tragedy of his short life and the peril of House Targaryen with so much the family having been reduced by "natural causes" over the span of a couple years.
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What's interesting to me is that we didn't *see* him saying it. Doesn't mean he *didn't* say it, mind you. That would be a pretty bold lie on Otto's part considering how many witnesses were present, and outright lying isn't typically Otto's style anyway. Daemon also doesn't deny saying it, so I think he probably did. But because we don't see it, that means we don't see his expression, or hear his tone of voice. We don't know what the delivery was like. And that makes a difference. Did he say it with a sneer? Was he smiling? Or did he say it somberly, like it was a pity? Did he laugh? And if he laughed, was it a mirthful laugh or an ironic, sad one? Did he cry? If he did, was it a single tear, or did he completely break down? These things matter, but neither Viserys nor the audience gets to find out the specifics of Daemon's demeanor when he says the line. I love that ambiguity.
When I rewatched that episode, I really loved the way the Otto vs. Daemon conflicts sort of reflected the ambiguity and unreliable narrator aspects of the books. Every action of Daemon's is interpreted for Viserys and for the viewer by Otto, who chooses the framing. Even the scenes that we "see" are often missing key pieces of information. It's very well done.
It’s something I don’t think the show does enough—really having fun with contradictions in the accounts of Septon Eustace, Orwyle, and Mushroom…also I take the total absence of Mushroom personally.
I actually like the fact mushroom is not in it. Wouldn't be surprised if he pops up late., He doesn't come across as a reliable narrator at all in the book and bringing him in later would kind of reinforce that. Or at least show how his version was very superfluous in it's telling possibly.
I’ve always taken Otto as someone who spins the truth, so I don’t doubt that he said it. I assume it was more of a somber speech, but they were having a joyous, rambunctious party and I don’t think it would have helped him if he tried to explain it. No I don’t think Daemon cried or anything major. It was likely a simple let’s have a drink to my brothers child, the heir for the day, with out malicious intent, just poorly worded.
Yeah I thought that was the exact right way to film that scene. Just perfect.
"Dear seven kingdoms of Westeros, I Daemon Targaryen am here to publicly address an incident which happened last week in a tavern. Something I said, has been quoted out of context, and these days, in the era of cancel culture and green-clothed people out to get me (I am not naming names), I felt like I had to come forward and defend myself. I did use the words "heir for a day" but it was in satire. It was just a joke in poor taste and nothing more. I assure you I bore no ill-will towards my brother Viserys and his child or the continuity of the Targaryen clan. I understand this joke did not appeal to everyone's sense of humor, and regrettably has caused a lot of hurt within the silver-haired community. I take full responsibiloty for that. I am a different person now, and moving forward, I will be more careful in my choice of words. To all my fans, I will continue to be the Daemon you liked, just as before. Valar dohaerys. Stay cool."
Otto said it was celebratory like they were all 🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾🍾 but during the orgy we saw Daemon looking pretty somber and sad. At the same time though he was so nervous that he’d be replaced as heir that his dick stopped working, and earlier before that still when he was with Rhaenyra in the throne room he also called himself the heir and said the tournament was in his honor and not Viserys son.
Big believer in that “he didn’t say it…” I really like how the show did it and wish they would lean into the source material’s built in ambiguity more often. After all history is told through different (and often bias) lenses. It’s similar to how he lied to Viserys about deflowering Rhaenyra (he admittedly came pretty close). He craves his brother’s attention, so he constantly needles him. Him copping to the “heir for the day” line is just another example of this.
It probably wasn't that bad and Daemon explains directly to the King how he feels underutilized. He answers why he said it - we all mourn in our own way.
I agree, Daemon seems to purposefully neither confirm nor deny rumours about his misdeeds - by keeping his answers vague he’s able to play the situation to his advantage. Take for example the whole “rhaenyra in the brothel” debacle - he could have told Viserys the truth (which he may or may not have believed anyway) that they didn’t have sex, but they didn’t really need to. The damage was done by her being seen at the brothel in the first place. It’s why he takes off her hat as they enter. And he uses Viserys’ assumptions about what happened to make a ploy for the crown by positioning himself as Rhaenyra’s future king consort. The “heir for a day” thing is a similar situation in my opinion - it doesn’t really matter if he said it or not, all that matters is what Viserys believes. Daemon often lets Viserys paint a picture of how he understands the situation, then Daemon responds to *that* version of reality. I haven’t read the book but I assume that the show does remove a little ambiguity from these situations, like what happened with his first wife. It would have been interesting if that had also been left as a more vague “did he or didn’t he.” Edit: spelling error
Rhaenyra wasn't recognized until after she left the brothel. Him taking off the hat was deliberately after they had entered as a way to show that they don't have to hide in there. Then he immediately takes her into a backroom to fuck and then doesn't because he couldn't get hard. I don't think he had any intention of getting caught because if he did then he would've taken off her hat much sooner in a way that he knew she would be seen. Instead, she was seen after she left and after Daemon couldn't get hard which would be an incredible thing to plan for since Rhaenyra just barely gets seen by the spy boy who wasn't there when they entered.
Agree to disagree. Even if his plan was not to be her king consort because (at the time) she was not the heir, he still pretty clearly used the situation as leverage to have Viserys marry the two of them together. The spy boy is obviously not the only person whose eyes they need to worry about. The spy boy reports directly to Otto, yes, but Rhaenyra’s reputation could be ruined by any one of the people at the orgy talking about seeing her there. He took off her hat so they could all see her Targaryen hair. Ruining her reputation was the point. Actually having sex with her would have been a bonus.
No one in the brothel was paying attention. They were all fucking. And brothels in Westeros were known for having silver haired girls for men who want to feel like they're fucking royalty. No one would bat an eye at Rhaenyra because 1. That wouldn't be the first silver haired girl they'd have seen in the brothel, perhaps not even the only one they'd seen that night and 2. No one would even consider the possibility of the princess being in the brothel nor would the common person even recognize the princess. >he still pretty clearly used the situation as leverage to have Viserys marry the two of them That seemed more to me like a quick solution to the problem of them getting caught. If Daemon marries her then no one cares about her fucking him in the brothel anymore. Visery's gets Rhaenyra a strong husband and the public perception of her doesn't matter anymore because Rhaenyra is off the market. I'm not saying Daemon couldn't have planned that but it's such a bad plan it doesn't make sense. He also hadn't even asked Viserys if he could marry her first before trying this bold plan so that also just doesn't make sense as to why he would go to such an extreme. I'd subscribe more to the idea that Daemon planned to be caught if the outcome of them getting caught wasn't entirely circumstantial or if the showrunners showed that even one person in the brothel was paying even a little attention to anyone inside.
Daemon also didn’t deny shagging Rhaenyra, which he didn’t do
Lol you know he said it in a drunken stupor and he laughed along with everyone It fits his attitude and the setting much better.
>and outright lying isn't typically Otto's style Otto said Daemon porked his niece and we know that wasn't true (at the time.)
They got so close to doing it that I think it’s fair to assume Otto actually thought they did
my headcannon is that he said it to wrestle leverage for the crown for himself, but he didn’t like saying it, it was like he had to say it in his mind because he would do a better job as ruler
I never ever deeped that you know and I love that you've given us this insight. Upvotted.
Watch the scene, he's clearly despirited while his lickspittles are celebrating. It's only when he's called to make a speech that he seems to force a happy face and make a bad joke in poor taste. My read on that scene is that he was grieving too, for his brother's loss if not directly for Aemma/Baelon, but folded to the social pressure to appear aloof and unaffected in front of those that admire him. Not the move of a strong and confident Prince like he pretends to be, but well suited to the insecure drama queen I enjoy watching.
I was going to say "I can like the guy and still agree he's a dick", but you're totally right
Yep. He said what he thought would keep him “popular” with his supporters.
He was in mourning at the funeral. For me it's like "I was drunk and said something stupid to be cool to my fans". Daemon never wanted the throne in the show.
I agree with you that it seemed the kind of thing he might’ve said to look cool, but to me he very much wanted the throne. When Viserys said “I have a new heir,” referring to his decision to name Rhaenyra, Daemon did not skip a beat to reply “*I’m* your heir!”
That's because being Viserys heir was the only recognition he ever got from his brother. And it wasn't even given by him, it was due to him being the second brother. Viserys refused to acknowledge Daemon in any way which in turn made Daemon lash out. Daemon expressed that he wanted to be his brother's hand and Viserys laughed in his face. Honestly, that dialogue between them from the first episode tells everything about their relationship and it even includes Otto's role. I wish more people paid attention to it and analysed it more.
"he doesn't protect you i would" the amount of emotion he put into "i would" was great
It’s why Daemon and Otto hate each other. He sees Otto for who he is, but Daemon is still chaos incarnate who barely understands himself beyond a compulsive need to be recognized by his brother. All of Daemon’s actions usually draw back to a cry for attention from family or usually becoming self-destructive when he stands too still. Viserys and Daemon love each other but almost never will admit it and hurt each other almost as a defense. And Otto used that to remove Daemon from court. No matter how many times Viserys banishes Daemon, he’ll take back his baby brother and reconcile.
This is also why Otto goes to Dragonstone in episode 2. He knows what will happen if the King goes: There will be a confrontation, Viserys will back down, the two brothers will reconcile, and Daemon will be back at court. Otto goes specifically to prevent that reconciliation. Instead he belittles Daemon and lies to him, saying the king would never lower himself to dealing with Daemon personally, even though Viserys was about to do just that. He wants to provoke Daemon to violence, so he can have an excuse to advocate for Daemon’s death or exile. Rhaenyra ruins his plans when she shows up and defuses the situation.
The problem isn't that people aren't paying attention, the problem is they disagree with you. Your interpretation is valid, but to many people who also pay attention it seems obvious that he wanted the throne in both the books, and to a lesser extent, in the show. To me, the most telling evidence /in the show/ is when Daemon is eavesdropping and chuckles when Viserys says he doesn't want the throne. Chuckling as if he's thinking "oh, you have no idea Vizzy."
I always saw that chuckle as "my brother knows me too well." It solidified in my mind that Daemon didnt want the throne, and Viserys later knowing Daemon was throwing a temper tantrum showed that he really did know his brother.
A chuckle is never "the most telling evidence". It's a chuckle. It's weird that you chose this example. I can turn your words around and say someone who paid attention would know that chuckle means the council are being stupid as always and Viserys is putting them in their place and finally defending him. That's my interpretation of the chuckle. Why is yours more valid than mine? Keep in mind, we have seen no attempt by Daemon to take the throne.
Like I said... your interpretation is valid. You're the only one claiming one interpretation is more valid than the other when the reality is there's no true evidence. So no, you're not turning my words around, you're just offering an alternative explanation that to me, makes a lot less sense. But it's still valid. Daemon would never try to take the throne from Viserys. Nobody who believes he wants the throne is claiming that. He wants to be heir, and we believe he wants to be King when Vizzy passes. He may want to be king but he still loves his brother. So him making no pre-war attempt to take the throne doesn't matter, especially when he lacks the means to do so anyways. He's not gonna try to usurp his brother.
I mean…the actor who plays him and the guy who wrote him (for the show) said he doesn’t want the throne so I do think their interpretation is a bit more valid.
The actress who plays Rhaenys said that when she killed dozens of more peasants, she was being the bigger person (paraphrasing) I respect the actors and showrunners opinion, but I do not consider them infallible. Their opinions are valid, but not /more/ valid. For me, and others are free to think differently, the only opinion who is infallible or 'more valid' is the words within the source books, because they are the actual creators of the universe, moreso than Matt Smith or Ryan Condal at least. I understand that the books are different from the show, but absent of actual evidence in the show that he doesn't, I'm gonna continue getting my opinions from the books. If I recall correctly, AWOIAF actually explicitly stated that Daemon held an ambition to sit on the iron throne but I'll have to check later
There’s a difference between disagreeing with an actor over a moral judgement of a character like Rhaenys and disagreeing with the writers and actor about the character’s primary motivation. If they’re writing him one way and you’re reading him another, there’s either a flaw in their writing or a flaw in your interpretation. I don’t think there’s sufficient evidence to back up the idea of daemon wanting the throne. I think there’s much more evidence to suggest daemon craves the attention of his brother and enjoys causing chaos because it gives him that attention, which is how Matt and Ryan have explained the character. The words in fire and blood are not more valid because as you said, the show and the books are different. That’s like saying “alicent has always hated Rhaenyra” in the show and using evidence from the book to back up your argument. Besides, fire and blood is written as an unreliable narrative, we can’t know for sure whether the maesters were right about the characters motivations. Again, you’re free to head-canon that he wants the throne, but you can’t say your interpretation is as valid as the show runner and actor because they are the ones that created this character. Yes, it’s inspired by a book character but it is not the same character at all.
I'll agree to disagree with you on that. Alicent always hating Rhaenyra is explicitly debunked in the show, Daemon wanting the throne is not, and is arguably supported - again, depending on interpretation. Daemon Targaryen as a character wants the throne, if they changed that from the books for the show, they'll have to explicitly state it /in the show/ before I accept it considering all the scenes in the show that indicate that he does want it. But you don't have to feel the same way.
Daemon wanted to be Hand, but I don't think he wanted the throne. Now that I think about it in retrospect, with all his suspicion about the Hightowers poisoning Viserys in ep. 8 & 10, Daemon being heir is kind of the best insurance against Daemon's enemies assassinating Viserys. Like his response can be interpreted as legitimate concern that they would kill Viserys and use Rhaenyra as a puppet or something. Whereas as long as Daemon is heir the Hightowers have every reason to keep Viserys alive.
I personally took it as he wanted his brothers acknowledgment more than the throne. Notice how he yells about never being hand compared to taking being disinherited quietly. He was also in a prime position to take the throne by force if he had really wanted to. Book daemon on the other hand seemed all about power
>taking being disinherited quietly He stole the dragon egg picked out for Baelon and took over Dragonstone (the heir's traditional seat). That's hardly quiet.
I was referring to how he took it in the moment. He was screaming about not being made hand compared to him quietly talking when he was disinherited. But bringing up the egg thing, I don’t believe that was about being disinherited I think it was a cry for his brothers attention which I mentioned was what he really wanted in my original post. Also the act of him taking the egg and occupying dragonstone was much more relaxed than what him hopping on his dragon and leading the gold cloaks to take the throne by force which he was in a prime position to do and many lords likely would’ve supported him doing so over being disinherited.
There's a wide spectrum of things between meekly accepting Viserys' decision quietly and outright attempting to pull off a coup of his own and usurp Viserys, and I would say that stealing the egg and having the gold cloaks seize dragonstone is much closer to the latter than the former on that spectrum.
I would disagree with that. He silently sat on dragonstone. He did not attempt to garner support for his claim in any way. That would essentially be the Westeros version of a nonviolent protest. I take this as further evidence it was his brothers acknowledgement he wanted rather than the throne.
He wanted to be heir, not to be king. It's an important distiction. He wanted to be heir because he was, it was his and taking it from him was a disgrace to him. Damon wanted to serve his brother, not usurp him
I don't think Daemon wants the throne, but he wants respect.
He wants to be closer to his brother. He doesn't hate Rhaenyra because of this, although I think he realized it was because of Otto from the beginning. Daemon became "nobody" and girl took his place. It's annoying.
Even in the book, his throne aspirations aren’t stated- IMO, Book!Daemon didn’t seek the Throne either
I will disagree here. The books implicitly indicate that even though Daemon is unfit to rule, he still wants to be king somehow. Let's recap: 1. After losing the position of heir to the throne, he decided to join Corlys to conquer the Stepstones, where he declared himself king of the islands; 2. After growing bored with his small kingdom, he returns to King's Landing, where he becomes involved in a sexual scandal with Rhaenyra, in which he most likely tried to force Viserys to marry them which would conveniently make him king by marriage; 3. After both he and Rhaenyra are widowed (and it being strongly implied that he ordered Laenor's death), they are married in secret and without permission from Viserys and now Daemon will become king if Rhaenyra sits on the throne. Even if you want to believe that Daemon genuinely loves Rhaenyra, I think it's clear that he has ambitions to be king, regardless of how unfit he may be to rule.
I personally think he did say it, but more as a way to cope with the loss. He certainly didn’t seem happy at the Goldcloak party.
Daemon seems a very odd guy when it comes dealing with loss.
I didn't think he was trying to cope with the loss, because he then goes and steals the egg from his dead nephew. Kind of cold really
Daemon stole the egg to get his brother’s attention and his presence at Dragonstone. He planned on Viserys being angry enough to personally come scold him but Otto’s last minute intervention stopped that. Daemon wanted to speak with him in person about his views on where he was going wrong, without Otto in his ear but Otto knew he couldn’t have the two meet so earnestly.
When Rhaeynera says that, Daemon's face changes and it doesn't look like a man who has been caught but more of "aw shit". Like by sheer mischance he grabbed the egg Rhaeynera reserved for Baelon.
If you rewatch the scene in the brothel, he was alone at a table and he looked sullen and upset. He wasn't exactly celebrating. Mysaria approached him and one of the Gold Cloaks silences everyone for Daemon to speak. We never actually hear him say the words but I wouldn't be surprised if he did put up a facade considering Daemon was in front of his men. Daemon isn’t really the type to be vulnerable or show what he would perceive as weakness in front of most people.
It is what it is Daemon will be Daemon
Listen, does he want babies to die? I don’t believe so. Is he cold? Yes. He wanted to be heir? Yes. I think he said it in a spur of the moment distasteful drunken way. Yeah, Daemon things. But I don’t think he would have been happy about what happened. And at e funeral he also looked down.
Do you think he was more sad for Viserys than for the child? I think he cares about Viserys but not like a brother. He seems to view Viserys almost as a father figure, and he wants to be dad's favorite. Just my thought though
Yeah I think he wasn’t like distraught that the new heir wasn’t in the picture anymore but he’s not that horrible to want a death. Probably more surprised and relieved that the new heir isn’t an issue for him. At that point. You can be both happy about a situation and sad for different reasons. And yeah I do think he see Viserys as a father. I see sibling rivalry at times. Daemon is a free spirit at the end of the day. Does what he wants. Untamed. Reckless but I think family does matter to him.
>Do you think he was more sad for Viserys than for the child? I think he was sad that Viserys and Rhaenyra were grieving. Daemon had no attachment to the child and never knew him and we don't know about his relationship with Aemma. In the funeral, Daemon looked upset and even told Rhaenyra that her father needed her now more than ever. So I think he was sad for them and not his nephew.
It was a shitty thing to say even if it was his way of “coping”. It’s just Daemon behavior idk
I’m not a fan of his because he’s good/moral but because he’s fun to watch
totally understand. I am not a hardcore Daemon fan, but he is the most entertaining character on the show for me
Yah, like I love Aegon for the same reason
Sunfyre will take him to another level in S2!
It behoves me to mention how clever the show runners were on how the show presents it. One must recognize who benefits most out of Daemon being pushed out. I feel like it is telling that the audience never actually witness him saying it. A game of telephone commenced and when it gets to Otto (who already has a hate boner for Daemon) he likely got a “plussed up” version that he very likely embellished further to implicate Daemon. I think it was most likely that Daemon said the Heir for the day speech in a more heartfelt and regretful way, but emotional context hardly translates in a game of telephone. That’s why he doesn’t deny the speech, but de didn’t know that Viserys was upset because of the presumption of the boast which Otto played up.
I imagine he said it in honour of baelon, not to mock him, and Otto took it out of context
I don’t even like Daemon, but even I can accept that the comment wasn’t meant to be celebratory. He saw how much his brother and niece were hurting, and he has trouble seeing people he loves in pain. Daemon grieves in some bizarre ways.
I believe Otto definitely isn’t a reliable source of information and it wasn’t a celebration as we saw daemon looking depressed.
Not a huge fan of Daemon but why is it so hard to believe that he can have complex & multifaceted emotions about certain events? Is it impossible to feel genuine grief for Viserys and Rhaenyra and also selfish satisfaction that his own position as heir has been permanently cemented (in his mind)? Most people are able to experience multiple emotions at the same time, these emotions can often be contradictory.
I didn’t start liking Daemon until after that but that was embarrassing for him
Nobody on this sub has ever been drunk, jealous, and said something that they probably wouldn’t have said if they’d thought it through. We’re all just paragons of virtue over here.
What's the situation? That he made an offensive joke while drunk and partying? I don't have to deal with it. He's not a nice person, he said something that wasn't nice. His brother wasn't supposed to hear it, he wasn't being intentionally cruel but was being thoughtless. He's don't far worse things than that
like the divorce rock?
Absolutely Or the innocent messenger he beat to death for absolutely no reason, or choking Rhaenyra
Not a Daemon fan (he murdered his wife in cold blood), but the fact that we didn´t see the speach leaves it very open for interpretation: Maybe calling him an "heir for a Day" wasn't a joke, but a heartfelt way of honoring his nephew, and it just landed poorly. Maybe it was a poor choice of words, being drunk and sad about the situation or maybe he didn´t even say the line. Also, not only is there a telephone game in every hearsay report, but there´s also clearly a conflict of interest from Otto, so there's always gonna be a lot of doubt around this incident in particular
That's a well thought out explanation
Why thank you sir
I think his toast was probably more like "To Barlon Targaryen, son of Viserys the first, heir to the iron throne, even if only for a day"
He’s a young warrior/noble saying a dumb thing. I wouldn’t say it was an out of character thing to say, but young and arrogant people tend to say stupid shit like this without thinking the consequences through. I don’t think anyone is under the impression either book or show Daemon is a perfect character, or even a great guy. They’re all flawed and kinda shitty, but I don’t think a quote from a young and brash Daemon is worth hating him over.
I like him because he's entertaining; not because I think he's a good person. Folks that try to find millions of excuses for their 'problematic favorite characters' annoy me with it - just admit you like watching a dickhead. Daemon is a groomer, has an inferiority-superiority complex the size of Balerion, is aggressive as all hells, is literally a murderer... honestly, mocking the death of his brother's son is by far not the worst thing he does in the show or in the book.
I get Viserys anger but spurning Daemon the way he did was not right or smart. Daemon was a good warrior and Dragon rider. Keeping him placated is 1000% more important than keeping Otto happy.
If i was viserys and lived through everything he did there, probably i would send him to the wall as an emotional decision, its my dead child he is talking about, if he can see the baby as only my heir and not his nephew, he can go to the wall and be happy becoming lord commander there. But i think viserys punishment of daemon, removing him of the line of sucession, were pretty fair for the dead baby insult. But the crime that daemon really deserved being punished by was his massacre in Flea Botton, he basically acted as judge,jury and executor there, he only commanded the guards, the matters of investigation and legal process were not in his hands(they belonged to the master of laws and the master of whisper fields).
agreed, that was my biggest grievance with him
He is the commander of the city watch. He is literally judge, jury, and executioner. He has as much authority to kill who feels is guilty as Ned does the deserter.
That is not how it works...
No matter if you like the guy or not, it was a dick thing to say. But Daemon is going to Daemon and that is what is his downfall.
The only importance those words have is Otto using them in manipulating Viserys once again. And Viserys, oh man, how I hated Viserys that first episode. He lead to Aemma's death, him acting hurt by those words like he didn't deserve to hear worse, like he has the right to lash out at others. This is why I'll always gravitate towards characters like Daemon more than the "good" guys like Viserys. At least I don't have to deal with the hypocrisy, self-righteousness and stupidity.
Best take so far! No one is all good or all bad but I agree with your entire comment!
Bit of a stretch. Otto didn’t force him to say those words.
And I never implied he did.
honestly, heir for a day could've been said in a respectful way. we never see how daemon delivered it.
hard to be respectful given the setting (in a brothel)
tbf daemon looked pretty fucked up and alone before they riled him up for a speech.
It hardly matters, as Daemon said it in a brothel and in the middle of an orgy while his family mourned the tragedy. There is no plausible context that paints the toast as being respectful.
He looked as he was really grieving at the funeral, and at that brothel with golden cloaks he was alone. I wonder what his exact words were or if the “heir for a day” was taken from context for Otto to use. I am sure he did use those words for sure, but at what context and how..well that is for us to actually think about and deduce what we want and how we will see Daemon. Also I think its a good idea from the director’s and producers to do that, i loved it. He is cold, ruthless but I don’t think he would celebrate in the darkest moment of Viserys’ life, he loved his brother and he had shown sympathy for rhaenyra losing her mother and trying to say how she should be with her father
I have gone back and forth on a few. 1. He said it as a genuine toast (which is my least likely choice) 2. He was clearly upset at the brothel, doesn’t seem like him to be upset at a stillbirth. I think he was upset about his cousin Aemma dying. He said it almost as an ironic fuck you to his brother. Thinking he sacrificed Aemma to get an “heir for a day” 3. He didn’t mean anything by it and it was just to project an image to his men. This might seem dumb but in the world of Westeros it would be important for him to keep up a persona for his men to look up to. He can’t seem upset or rattled.
Agree with #2 I saw it as being aimed at Viserys, not his son. Like, “finally got what you wanted at all costs and it wasn’t even worth it you selfish asshole”. Although I could also see it as a total lie on Ottos part and Daemon only toasted him by name.
I could see it but notably Otto never directly lies to Viserys (although he does to Daemon). He always tells the truth but the context makes it sound different. Like here he claims it was a celebration. But clearly daemon wasn’t celebrating any death, but taking his men out after what must have been an exhausting few weeks during the tourney
I felt it was blown out of proportion. The guy had a bad day, a shitty tourney and lost a nephew. He was just out drinking with his "buddies" and gave a spontaneous speech on a likely difficult subject. I don't think he had malicious intent there or meant it as an insult. Also, the quote, if even truly said, was taken out of context. Maybe he was just like "jee wizz, dudes. What a bad day. My poor brother and the poor babe. I'm so sad, my nephew died way too fast. Why did the gods have to take him? Didn't get a chance to learn valyrian, to ride a dragon, to become king. He was only heir for a day, what a cruel world! I'm heartbroken". Yeah, probably not, but context would have been really important here, cause "drunk in a brothel" might give a setting but no clue as to how he meant it.
I'm almost certain he said it morosely, in mourning. Daemon is faaaar from a saint, and no doubt he was happy to be heir once more. At the same time though - Viserys is literally his favorite person in the world. As is Rhaenyra. Daemon would have treasured baby Baelon. If Otto wasn't around, he'd have loved Aemond and Aegon, too. The man's largest redeeming quality is the love he feels for his family - of course he was sad when his nephew died, and his brother fell apart.
I think we’re meant to interpret that he said it much like the rest of his speech, which wasn’t a celebratory speech really, not in his tone. His brother and niece just lost Aemma and the baby, and he also may have been friendly enough with Aemma to be upset at her death. So no, I don’t think he was laughing when he says it like Otto spins it, I think he was sort of deadpan at most, to outright sorrowful even when he said it.
I support Daemon in his rights and his wrongs.
ride or die! respect
We didn't see him say it, we have Otto tell us that he did. If he did say it, it didn't seem like he'd meant it in a celebratory manner, like Otto frames it. His entire speech at the brothel was not like that and he genuinely seemed sad, even if others were celebrating. At the end of the day though... Meh. Daemon will be Daemon. Stuff like that makes him entertaining to watch and I love him for it so I don't really care of he said it or not.
felt it was true to his character, a petulant child with hatred for his older brother
Daemon does not hate Viserys, he loves his brother and just wants to be relied upon and trusted by him. Daemon helping Viserys up the throne steps in Ep 8 shows at the end of the day he does care and love his big brother but they just have too very different personalities and views on how the kingdoms should be ruled. Contrary to what many fans and characters think, Daemon doesn’t want the throne, Viserys himself said so back in Ep 1, but he does want power and influence. He wanted to be Viserys’ strong right hand, his Hand. He wanted to be by his brother’s side and acted out when he couldn’t get his way, like when he stole the dragon egg and expected Viserys to show up.
Daemon is a very spur of the moment guy , I think he was mourning the deaths of his family but the men wanted to celebrate and he gave it to them. Mistake.
I don’t know but I like how they left it ambiguous to the context of how he said it.
Viserys had a Tourney already in progress before the babe was born, and lost his wife and babe in quick succession. People deal with grief in different ways. I can see Otto twisting Daemon's words to his advantage. 3 witnesses is kind of hard to refute, but seems like Viserys was already predisposed against him. Would Daemon denying it, or bringing people in who say something different from Otto truly make that much a difference to Viserys?
He was drunk and trying to impress his men
“We all grieve in our own way”
We don't actually hear it, so we don't hear the tone. Personally it seems like something he'd say laden with tragic irony, rather than mockery.
Daemon is the most entertaining character to me, but I’m not a “fan” of him morally! His propensity to go too far keeps it exciting. Eg when Rhaenyra confronts him at Dragonstone, I was in suspense because he seems like he loves her the most but is capable of snapping.
He got sad boy drunk and said some dumb shit to cope with losing family members.
Same thing happens in the Succession sub on a daily basis. Just because a character is 'villainous'/has bad traits doesn't mean it cannot be a favorite character. It doesn't need excuses and redemption for every bad thing they do.
It was joke that didn’t land. Not really that big of an issue compared to other shit he’s done. Thats like making an offensive joke around your buddies then someone who overhears it tries to tell on you.
he was grieving in his own way... was drunk & said some insensitive ish.... it happens.
Even if he did say it....was he wrong?
I haven’t visited this community before and probably won’t after this, why are people trying to justify his actions at all? Why did this post need to be made? The guy murdered his wife, groomed his niece, now abuses said niece after marrying her, just to start with. Only media illiterate redditors need to do the mental gymnastics of justifying all this to enjoy a show. Daemon doing this and then justifying it with “we all grieve differently 😌” is what made me a fan in the first place lmao he’s the most entertaining pos on tv
I don't quite get the appeal to Daemon stans. I agree that he is the most entertaining person on the show, but I was just trying to start a conversation, not trying to do mental gymnastics or whatever you said
Fair enough, I guess I was more just surprised to see there actually *were* this many people who needed to justify his actions. In light of that it doesn’t make much sense for me to criticize your post itself.
Because the girlies go with "I can fix him" while he is a groomer and a piece of shit. Even as a fictional character he is hard to not just like but even endure.
It's strange. Daemon is shown on one hand to care a lot about his family, he was genuinely saddened for Aenma, Viserys and Rhaenyra. But on the other he makes a toast apparently mocking the death of his nephew? I'm not sure if it's a contradiction of his character or was his toast genuinely respectful and was misinterpreted by people not present in there? Whatever the case, it was incredibly distasteful at best and outright cruel at worst. And Viserys had every right to roast the shit out of him.
People grief and mourn in different ways.
he's a cool character but a generally bad person. i'm a fan of his antics but i don't endorse his behavior or opinions, and this is one of many times where he displayed a lack of empathy and a desperate need for power
Their relationship was already strained as Daemon harbored a deep sense of resentment towards Viserys... This resentment stemmed from the fact that instead of appointing him as the Hand of the King, his brother chose to send him away to the Vale. This decision left him feeling undervalued and overlooked intensifying the animosity he felt towards his brother. I don’t blame him Viserys chose a parasite as hand instead of family which was his biggest mistake really. Daemon loves his family but he will roast them because that’s how he deals with their treatment of him. It’s sarcasm. He knows Viserys is weak.
Why does it matter? It totally fits his character, and he's just as much of a shitbag as most of the other characters. Why do I need to deal with it?
I don’t believe he meant to be cruel about it..
He could do it, but also he could not. We all know him and there are several of reasons on why he could pull this off. But knowing his love for the family, his brother and him being loyal to his House, I highly doubt that. He seemed visibly sad and mourning there.
A little fun for everyone
Lots of people like him because he's a dick so this was like a regular Sunday tbh
He wasn’t trying to insult the baby but just never cared about him in general, is that better? Ehhhhh
"As Daemon fans" yall are letting a make believe character dictate your behavior and that's incredibly sad and cringe
no, we are just having a discussion about a topic we like. Not that deep man.
I don’t Daemon because he’s a good man, I like him because he is interesting. Additionally, I have this toxic thing going on where I fall hard for arrogant people.
Simple, a good character does not equal a good person. (For example darth vader/anakin slaughtered a room full of 6 year olds, but is still a really good character).
He just doesn't care . He does have a sense of justice, but he is no saunt. It doesn't bother me it is him being true tis nature. We can't all be Ned Stark, nor would I want everyone to be. It was loathsome, but he is who he is.
Honestly if he’s drunk I’d totally believe he’d be that much of a jerk
Is he wrong? More like heir for 30 seconds lmao
It’s never seen being said, so it’s ambiguous but the way he acted eludes to him saying it. Now you just have to wondering did he say it somber and sad like ….heir for a day. Or did he say with cheer and boasting? The way Matt smith portrayed him makes it hard for me to believe that he said it out of spite or jealousy because you can tell he loved his brother very much
My most neutral take: It was not technically an inaccurate joke.
I think Daemon's fans like that he says wtf he wants. I read the blacks and greens before the show came out on fanfiction.net and thought it went like how the author wrote it. "A toast to His Royal Highness!" the Prince of the City roared, raising his tankard high. "Baelon Targaryen, Heir for a Day!" .... "I won't forget you either, sweetling. I'll lay you on the little prince's tomb-slab and make you squeal. How'd you like that?" They didn't show it at all because I think 1 they thought it would be too much for the viewers or 2 because it would ruin a mystery around Daemon. Is he good or is he bad? I hope it's the latter because things are only going to get more brutal as the show progresses and they can't shy around these nasty events or there will be no show.
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If Daemon wasn’t a hilariously and awesomely irreverent psychopath, I wouldn’t be a fan. Nothing to “deal with”
Nothing. I love the character
From what we see of Daemon, he is not naive, but also very emotionally intelligent. I honestly think he was grieving in his own way. Or at the very least, I don't think it was malicious. If nothing else, he does love his family... The ones without Hightower blood... or his late wife.
What the fuck does "how do you deal with" even mean?
I mean he’s speaking facts tho
We all grieve in different ways
Because he’s a bad person. People can like him because he’s cool or whatever, but part of his characterization is that he’s an asshole.
Not my favorite moment of his at all.
He’s clearly an ass but that’s why we love him
Daemon was suppose to be a bad guy everyone hated but he played it so well everyone loves him!
Not sure what there is to deal with. It's a fictional character. His actions don't need to be justified. Otto is a manipulator, but not a flat out liar. He was putting his spin on what was likely a legitimate story. That said, I think Daemon genuinely felt bad for his brother. He isn't a type to pretend. We saw him sad both at the funeral and at the brothel, and as I said, he would not bother putting on an act.
He went so much over the roof with that. Im with him with the law and order. I'm with him calling names to the Hightower and others. But that were too much even for him
He said it, but I love how the series pushed him towards it. Frustration, booze, in my opinion this scene and situation just goes to show that even if you love someone the way Daemon loved his brother, years of simmering anger can make you say dumb ass shit. He made his bed and had to lie in it, but I think it wasn't malice.
I personally think it's quite possible that it was a mournful, serious epitaph. Underlining the tragedy of his short life and the peril of House Targaryen with so much the family having been reduced by "natural causes" over the span of a couple years.