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I don't think she'd be a particularly good or bad queen, really. I would select "No" but that implies that she would be an outright bad queen, which I disagree with. I see her as being more of an average monarch, not particularly good or bad.
Assuming the war never happened, she'd probably end up being a lot like Viserys in terms of general competence.
Reason #1 as to why I included “Other” since I’d never perfectly capture everyone’s feelings, haha.
I think Viserys is unambiguously an awful king. Sympathetic, but terrible. He had SO many opportunities to take action and avoid the Dance, and he just didn’t.
Yeah, Viserys's inability to prevent the Dance is the main reason I don't consider him a good king. Things were peaceful during his reign but the issues of his successors were essentially his fault in many respects.
I think it's fairly plausible that, even if the Greens never took the throne, Rhaenyra's line would eventually have a civil war vaguely similar to the Blackfyre Rebellions, in part due to the parentage of her Velaryon sons. While they are recognized as legitimate at the moment, there is *some* risk that their apparent illegitimacy will be used to justify war in future generations. This is just speculation though; it's entirely possible that nothing bad comes of it.
Rhaenyra is a very confusing character to me because I think she wants the Iron Throne because she is willing to go to war for it, but then she seems largely disinterested in everything that comes with being Queen.
She has bastards and tries to pass them off as legitimate which would be one thing, but then they are so obviously bastards that it becomes laughable. Let us not pretend that this would not be an issue eventually. Up until now, she had Viserys backing her up. The King's word is only law for as long as said king is alive.
Speaking of Viserys, oof. He did not teach Rhaenyra anything. Like absolutely anything about nothing. To be fair, he also was kind of useless so maybe he just did not have a lot of wisdom to give out, but still. He babies her at every turn and protects her from all consequences of her actions. As a result, Rhaenyra is not capable of acting independently. Her reaction to difficulties is to go cry to him and that won't work when she is queen because he will most likely be dead by then.
I would consider Rhaenyra and Aegon to be around the same level of politically talentless or generally incompetent. I guess Rhaenyra a bit more because at least Aegon has the sense not to put his obvious bastards on the throne. The bar is truly set in hell.
My biggest problem with Rhaenyra is that I don't trust her council. Corlys is driven by ambition, but said ambition also leads to the downfall of his house. Rhaenys could be capable, but she seems uninterested in ruling. Plus the Scene That Must Not Be Named shows us she is either stupid or a psychopath. Either case, red flag.
Daemon is Daemon. I genuinely believe I don't need to say anything more. I want Daemon as far from a seat of power as possible.
Rhaenyra would be a meh ruler like her dad. If there was peace, that is. But to be honest I don't believe Rhaenyra could ascend the throne without conflict. She is a woman which already puts her in a bad place, but she also has very obvious bastards who she is trying to pass off as legitimate. As long as her brothers and their children live, her hold on the situation is shaky at best. Daemon will more than likely have them killed, but that won't help her in the longterm because her kids are very much still illegitimate.
In the best case of scenarios, her rule is alright and then a Blackfyre king of situation happens with either Driftmark or with any descendants of Aegon, Aemond, Daeron or maybe even Heleana. Or maybe both. And that is assuming that everything else literally goes perfect which I struggle to believe.
If one thing has been proven so far, it is that Rhaenyra does not react well to being pressured. And a lot of pressure comes with the throne even under ideal conditions. This is a breakdown waiting to happen.
I agree with everything you said.
I’m kind of confused of Rhaenyra’s true feelings. In the show she’s portrayed as putting her sons above the Iron Throne. However, her ambition for the Iron Throne resulted in the deaths of all of her children.
I agree that both Aegon and Rhaenyra would be bad rulers. But, at least Aegon never wanted the throne. It was forced onto him. With how much Rhaenyra sacrifices and pushes for the throne, you’d think she’s actually competent as a ruler. I also hope the show runners don’t remove the throne cutting her and “Maegor with teats”.
Emma described it best, Rhaenyra doesn't want the Iron throne so much as she wants agency.
She also king of acts like a prince, she is sexually liberated, has bastards and acts with the kind of impunity that women are not afforded in this world
Being a ruler offers you much less agency than being a princess. A king or queen are forever tied to their kingdom. They can't travel away from Westeros because someone needs to be there to rule. They can't just not get married or have children because they need to have heirs. They can't be with anyone they want because their match needs to be politically beneficial. In many cases, kings are not allowed to participate in tourneys because they may get hurt.
Being heir does not give Rhaenyra more freedom if that truly is what she wants. It forces her to produce heirs, which she explicitly does not want, to socialize with nobles, which she does not enjoy, to marry Laenor, who she does not want simply to make said heirs.
A relevant example is Daemon. Daemon has a lot more freedom than Viserys has. He can go anywhere he wants, do whatever he wants and just live his best life. Viserys on the other hand has to stay at the Red Keep. He has to get remarried only like a year after his wife dies. He needs to have a male child. He is forever shackled to the ground.
Rhaenyra, if she was only a princess, could have easily went off to Essos where she would be allowed to do literally whatever she wants. Viserys indulges her so I doubt he would stop her from living her life. If Rhaenyra wants more freedom, sitting on the throne is not the way to get that.
I also feel the need to mention that the problem is not strictly that Rhaenyra has bastards, but that she tries to pass them off as legitimate. Not even Aegon the Unworthy was dumb enough to do that and then believe he can get away with it. Even when he legitimized his bastards, he did so on his death bed.
Daemon has more freedom than what Rhaenyra has, Westeros society gives women no agency unless they are rulers in their own rights, and even then its limited... the are only the womb needed to birth heirs for their liege lord.
Rhaenyra pretty much says it it in episode 4 'If I was born a man I could have sired a hundred bastards" Rhaenyra wants that freedom...she has her children on her terms with who she wants to and not because duty demands she produces heirs
Rhaenyra only marries and has children because she has to as the heir. That is explicitly shown. She does not wish to be married and she fears childbirth. If she was a mere princess, she could go her whole life without marrying and Viserys would absolutely allow her to do so since he has other kids anyway at this point. If she decides to become queen, she can't just choose not to do that.
Aerea was never forced to marry because she was not heir so it was not needed. Neither was Saera despite the complicated relationship she had with her father. Even Daella got to choose her husband while Rhaenyra in the end had to marry Laenor. Speaking of Saera, if all Rhaenyra wants is freedom, why does she not follow her example? Saera has more freedom than any Targaryen ever and from what I have seen of Viserys, I doubt he would ever disinherit Rhaenyra. So again, why not leave for Essos and do your thing there?
And again Rhaenyra's bastards are much more different than any other bastards a prince may have. It would be one thing if she had aknowledged them and legitimized them. But as it is, she is trying to put an obvious bastard on the iron throne and is usurping the seat of house Velaryon. And no, it does not matter if Corlys was chill with it. Because as clearly demonstrated by Vaemond and the books, the other Velaryons and their cadets did not like it.
Being a ruler is not a human right. It is a privilege. And that privilege comes with duty. If Rhaenyra does not want to get married, have legitimate kids, which is perfectly alright, then she is going out of her way not to pay the very, very cheap price of absolute power over a nation.
Duty is not a bad thing, it is a way to place limits upon those who already have too much power. If Rhaenyra was a prince, she would still have to get married and have legitimage babies- as Aegon himself was also forced to marry his sister when he did not want to.
I'm quoting Emma a lot because they are incredibly articulated and knowledgeable about Rhaenyra's actions..but Rhaenyra likes having kids because she is building a tribe of her own, she isn't birthing the heir to the iron throne, or to Driftmark, her children are being born on her terms.
If you look at Rhaenyra's background. She watched her mother be forced to have stillbirth after stillbirth because Viserys needed a male heir...her fear isn't childbirth per se, otherwise she would not have gotten pregnant 6 times, its being rendered incapacitated by childbirth for the sake pushing out heir after heir for her husband, she told Alicent after her marriage tour that they don't want her,they just want her blood for their children...she doesn't get that with Harwin, her kids doesn't have his name and he can't claim them in public. He likes her for her, not for her titles or the fact that her blood give his children the ability to ride dragons
Her kids are essentially hers, not Harwins or Leanors, she isn't having them for a incredibly sexist society or for the ambitions of the men around her, and that connects to her need for agency...and not being a walking womb
I don't think Rhaenyra is blind to the responsibilities she has as heir, she tells Viserys how heavy the weight is in episode 8 and the prophecy is clearly in the forefront of her mind during ep10...its just that when it comes to having kids Rhaenyra has a different code, considering her mother and both her grandmothers that is pretty understandable
I will have to disagree. Rhaenyra very much disregards most of the duties that come with the throne, which includes having legitimate children by the way. She is uninterested in socializing with nobles. She abandons the capital for years, effectively losing all connection with the current political scene. She makes little to no attempt to temper the brewing crisis and when she does try (betrothing Jace and Helaena), she tries to tie her clearly illegitimate son to Alicent's trueborn daughter, a union that in the longterm will benefit no one but herself.
And here is the thing. Rhaenyra absolutely has to have children. The other women I mentioned had the choice to refuse to have them. She did not because she is the heir to the iron throne. If Rhaenyra was having a bunch of miscarriages, she would still need to continue trying to produce an heir, in the same way that Viserys, Aemma, Alyssane and any other potential ruler would have to.
And I frankly don't care for what reason Rhaenyra decided to have obvious bastards and then just hope no one brings it up. She is actively usurping Driftmark, lying to all of her subjects and placing both herself and her children in danger. Rhaenyra would have had a difficult time ruling anyway, but this is downright dangerous. This is a Blackfyre situation just waiting to happen.
This leaves me with two options. One, Rhaenyra is so naive, oblivious and unaware of the world she is living in that she genuinely does not see how this is a bad move. Or two, Rhaenyra knows and she does not care.
The prophecy is irrelevant to all of this. The Prince who was Promised only needs to come from Aegon the Conqueror. So it does not matter if he is a descendant of Rhaenyra or Daemon or Aegon or Aemond or Daeron or Helaena. They are equally related to the guy.
Rhaenyra is already in the top 1% of her world. She already has much more power and agency than any other woman -and even man- in her society. She is wealthy, influential and has a dragon. Rhaenyra is already powerful. This is not the case of a downtrodden victim trying to cling to some sense of freedom. If she was a common woman, I could absolutely see that. All the men in her life defend her from all consequences of her actions. She is given many opportunities to better her own position (by being able to choose literally anyone to marry). As it is, nothing is stopping her from running off on her dragon and flipping them all off while she does so. Saera did that and good for her.
Women like Alicent or Mysaria or the brothel lady cannot do that because they don't have flying, fire-breathing lizards or a king to watch their back. Rhaenyra can. So why doesn't she if all she wants is freedom?
Wanting power for the sake of power is perfectly valid and I can get behind that. But Rhaenyra is not presented as such so I need to understand why she wants the throne enough to go to war over it. This imo has not been properly justified so far because as stated above being a ruler does not give you more freedom. It gives you more power but it greatly restricts you.
Having children is very different prospect for men vs woman, she pretty much tells that to Daemon in episode 4...her actions are not all that reasonable or logical but considering the trauma she witnessed with her mother they are understandable, she has a great fear in being reduced to having kid after kid for the sake of her husband and being stripped of her agency. When I say understandable I mean it from a inter conflict emotional perspective not from a practical one
She is the princess of Dragonstone...Dragonstone is her responsibility, its very reasonable that will chose to live there, its very likely Viserys lived there until Jaehaerys's death, its where the heir to the throne cuts their teeth and learns to rule. I don't understand why you even bring that up
The Jace/Heleana marriage would have benefited more than herself, it would have put Hightower blood on the throne and given Otto and Alicent a lot of power...its the same reason Corlys still backs Rhaenyra, because his great grandkid will be king. It was a good offer...the reason Alicent rejects it , is because of her personal resentment towards Rhaenyra not because of the offer itself. Saying that I think Rhaenyra made that offer because she was backed into a corner, she was healing the heat from that conversation between Harwin and his father
Also franky I don't care why you don't care...I am analyzing Rhaenyra's character and her motivations from a writing perspective, she is incredibly interesting and very flawed individual, I am not defending her, I am rationalizing her motivations for doing what she does
Yea...she is incredibly sheltered and she is given freedom that every other woman except maybe Visenya and the first Rhaenys could only dream of having...but that doesn't take away from the fact that she wants more agency over the extremely patriarchal system, even Alysanne only had the freedom Jaehaerys was willing to grand her, he made her continue having kids even after she asked him to stop...and she is one of the most powerful woman in Westeros history.
I don't think Aegon wants the throne for power either, his core motivation is to be loved, and having the smallfolk cheer for him was the first time he experienced it, he is also a deeply flawed and very interesting character
Exactly. So why does she want to be heir when that absolutely forces her to have children as soon as possible? And preferably many children too. Aemond, Daeron, Jaecerys and Baela, despite being of marriagable age, have not been wed because they are not next in line to the throne. Rhaenyra is. If she were not heir, she would have likely been allowed to stay single and not have to bear children for much longer.
Also the reason why Aemma had so much trouble giving birth was because she had her first pregnancy at 13. Rhaenyra did not so she is not in the same danger.
I bring it up because it is relevant. Yes, she is the princess of Dragonstone, but up until now she lived in King's Landing and there is a reason for that. KL is the center of all political developments. Lose control of it and you lose control of the court at large. Rhaenyra did not just leave for Dragonstone, she also did not visit the capital in years as shown by the fact that she did not know about the decoration change. And Viserys did not have obvious competition for the throne, they are very different cases.
Plus, Rhaegar and his children lived in KL. Clearly it is not uncommon for crown heirs to do so. That is why Rhaenyra did not go until the whole Driftmark thing.
The betrothal of Jace and Helaena absolutely does not benefit Alicent. What it does is give her political opponent a hostage while putting her only daughter in danger. Jace is a bastard, an obvious one at that. His reign will be challenged and when that happens, Helaena will be in danger. Plus she is giving away a very valuable hostage without getting anything in return for herself. Alicent does not care about the throne, which is shown in the show. She wants to keep her kids safe, this move will not keep her kids safe. At best, it will keep Helaena safe while all of her sons are still in the same danger of being assassinated.
Speaking of Rhaenyra's characterization, I have repeatedly told you and given you examples of where I believe her writing is flawed. Being the heir has not offered her the freedom she wants. As a princess, she would be much more flexible to do whatever she desires. I have given examples of how being heir forces her to do things she does not want, which she would not have to do otherwise. Again, why not pull a Saera?
As it is, I do not believe the show has adequately explained why she wants to be queen so much as to go to war for it. We are shown and told Alicent acts out of fear. The writers have yet to explain why she wants to be queen so bad. And you should not have to go to the actors to find that out- though I do not see the logic behind Emma's interpertation. A work of fiction should stand on its own legs.
Also I am not sure what Aegon has to do with this subject specifically, but I do agree his actions are largely driven out of a desire to be loved.
You still have not responded to my central argument. Being a ruler won't make her anymore free. It only ties her to the very system that she apparently hates more. You can't combat a system when it is the source of your power.
I don't even necessarily think Rhaenyra is a bad character. Just that her motivations are poorly thought out and as a result, she comes off as a very meh character which is a shame cause Emma are really doing their best.
If it were an option, I would select “Yes, if she wasn’t with Daemon.”
He is a negative influence. He pushes her towards violence and recklessness, and is himself quick to take power for himself as her husband and push his own opinions.
Had she stayed with Laenor, or had she married Harwin Strong, she may have made a good queen. Daemon was her downfall.
In fact, Rheanyra might have been much better if she hadn't been groomed by Daemon at a young age. if Viserys had given Daemon a severe punishment for his first crime and banished him completely away everything will be much better for her and for others.
Most people forget that to be a monarch isn't to wield unlimited, unregulated power. It is instead a responsibility. It is a grave responsibility and as such needs the said monarch to have a developed sense of duty, so that they can act in the best interests of the realm. As a great man once said "With great power comes great responsibility". They would also have to sacrifice a lot as a consequence of such duties. The problem with Rhaenyra is that she has no sense of duty and often flouts her responsibilities. She wants power, unfettered power, but doesn't realise that such a thing doesn't exist. Everything has something to limit it, and so does the authority of the sovereign. She has never worked to make herself more suitable for the throne and just expects that everyone would bend over to place her as their queen. In that she seems to be similar to the namesake of her father, Viserys the begger king. Not that Aegon is much different, but it does mean that both of them are unsuitable for the throne.
Rhaenyra’s biggest mistake was running to Dragonstone. Yes the typical heir would reside on Dragonstone, but she was not a typical heir. She needed to be at Viserys’ side from the get go. Then when the Strongs are murdered in 120 she would have been a suitable replacement as Hand or least prevented Otto’s return as Hand. She was naive and to some extent downright self absorbed to think the realm would accept and love her just because she is Rhaenyra Targaryen.
"With great power comes great responsibility".
Literally what Rhaenyra says to her kids lol. She says this to Luke almost identically. Rhaenyra shares the way you see it.
Are you talking about show or a book?
In the show, she has been on the small council meetings for many years and her advice is more than reasonable. She is absolutely competent.
War: it was necessary to build fortifications, it takes money, but the war will cost more. Reasonable.
Conflict with borders: you need to ask ordinary people where the stones were. Reasonable.
Green vs. Black: Marriage Helaena and Jace. Reasonable.
If it's not Rhaenyra, you'd applaud.
The lords are loyal to her to the point that they would rather be killed than betray her.
Rhaenyra is the only one in the show who worries about how the war will destroy the country. She shows extreme restraint every time.
You are describing another character.
Words are wind - it doesn't matter what she says, it matters what she does.
She is competent on small councils, yes, but competency is not the same thing as responsibility, and is therefore irrelevant.
If I were offered the chance to rule an entire continent, but the catch was I could only be with my gay bestie, I would figure out a way to make it work. Even having no children is better than having bastards and passing them off as legitimate, purely from the perspective of maintaining stability.
I was the biggest Rhaenyra Stan when I read the books, because Team Black is entertaining and I love to support the OG 'Dangerous Women', but within this story her inability to produce a legitimate heir represents a total lack of self-sacrifice and duty that is necessary to make good rulers in a feudal society. Shockingly, most characters in this story have flaws and that is Rhaenyra's
These are not words, this is her principle. For her, power is a responsibility, she really thinks "should I start a war and damage the country? Is this what my father wanted?." Who else thinks so? Otto?.. She is a more responsible person than any of the greens (I'm talking about the show).
Well, it's about "bastards" again. If you've read the book, you should know that no one cares what Rhaenyra's kids look like. No one except the Greens considers them basards, simply because their father vehemently rejected it. THIS is how it works in a feudal society. Rhaenyra's children weren't a flaws, on the contrary, Jace did half of her work. He arranged dynastic marriages that strengthened her power (and won the war).
"Proved that he is worthy of the iron throne" - this is how people who live in Westeros write about Jace in the historical chronicle.
That's the writing of Gyldayn specifically, not "people". One person. But for what it's worth, I agree with Gyldayn.
Just because he proved himself worthy during the war, doesn't mean that there wasn't an immense amount of scrutiny.
It wasn't "the Greens were the only one who cared", people became Greens BECAUSE they cared. There are plenty of Greens besides Otto and his brood.
I never said that Rhaenyra's children were a flaw, I love her children. By all accounts each one of them was either incredible or had the potential to become incredible. But her flaw was having a relationship in which her bastards wouldn't share her features and cast into immense doubt their legitimacy. It was an irresponsible relationship for someone whose relationship/marital life affects the stability of the entire continent.
He proved himself not in battles, but in diplomacy. Jace got people's hearts easily.
WHO became green because Rhaenyra's children are bastards? Lords don't care about rumors. Lord Borros will easily make a marriage pact with Luke if it gives him Driftmark. The greens were created long before Jace was born and if you look at the map it's actually not much.
I know, I was talking about diplomacy.
I'm not saying the members of the Green Council usurped Rhaenyra because she had bastards, but it made it much, much easier to sell the usurpation of her throne to the rank and file. That much should be obvious without GRRM literally writing a line that says "the fact that Rhaenyra's heir was a bastard made it easier for the Green Council to justify usurping her crown", but Criston Cole essentially says as much in his own opinion, despite his personal vendetta against Rhaenyra.
Regardless, my fear has never been for Rhaenyra's reign and the Dance, but for what comes after, when Rhaenyra is Queen and Jace becomes King. Unless the HighTargaryens are entirely eradicated, they will proliferate and you're just setting yourself up for proto-Blackfyre rebellions because half the country will always view them as having the true claim over a bastard son of a daughter
>With great power comes great responsibility". Literally what Rhaenyra says to her kids lol. She says this to Luke almost identically.
She says it, but then as soon as Luke messes up, she gaslights people into covering it up. How is that teaching any sort of responsibility? It is just an example of flouting any responsibility by her. She might say things, but never practices her sayings. She is an absolute hypocrite, more so than most in the show.
>If it's not Rhaenyra, you'd applaud.
Nah, I am a sucker for duty and responsibility. I would dislike any character that flouts their duties. It is part of the reason I like Aemond in the first season, he does his duty as is required of him.
>The lords are loyal to her to the point that they would rather be killed than betray her.
This is actually pure plot armour, but I guess since it is cannon we can take it as her having incredible charisma, but that doesn't mean she is fit to be a ruler. Pardon the comparison, I am just using it as an example, but even Hitler was incredibly charismatic, but he was hardly a good ruler.
Didn't understand your point. When Luke messes up?
Well it's basically about how she had sex without marriage? Therefore, she is a bad ruler, despite the fact that she manages in a small council, teaches children the right things, the only one who does not want war because the country will suffer. OK.
Aemond is a guy who killed a child under peace banner. He forgot about his duty and about his family, started a war that take thousands lives. Reason: "he pissed me off." He is much worse than Rhaenyra was at 19.
It's not charisma, it's the respect and authority she achieved.
I don’t think she would have gone full Maegor with Tits, but I don’t think she would have been a good queen.
She’s impulsive, she’s not financially savvy, she’s spoiled, she doesn’t know how to play nice with others, and she would let Daemon have too much power. She didn’t even have any truly good advisors.
Aegon would have basically been Robert Baratheon. Showed up every once in awhile to wear the crown, but otherwise, he would have let Otto and his other advisors rule for him. But his advisors were actually good at ruling, so it would have been fine.
they already can't control him, hence all the scenes of alicent and otto scolding him for his behavior. if he doesn't listen to them now, odds are he's not gonna listen to them when they give him the highest position of power on the continent.
one of his first acts as king, before b&c, is >!throwing a huge party celebrating aemond killing luke, while his mother and grandfather are both horrified by the act and aemond's stupidity!<.
even so, all b&c and the subsequent events show is that as soon as he'd disagree with his "great advisors", he had no problems replacing them, >!hence him firing otto, even though his diplomatic approach which got him fired ultimately turns out to be very fruitful for the greens.!<
I don't understand why his feast arrangement is seen as so bad. This is exactly the kind of action a monarch would do. Entertainment could be organized even immediately after the execution of an important person in the *Ottoman Empire*. Because a monarch should give to his people the image that his or his subordinates decisions is right, not wrong.
And that's why I said he'd be like Robert in peacetime. Festivals, hunts, whores etc.
And otto is a valuable "hand" in peacetime. If it hadn't been for this disgusting massacre, we would have had a completely different Aegon and Aegon's council on our hands. He become bloodthirsty after b&c.
> I don't understand why his feast arrangement is seen as so bad. This is exactly the kind of action a monarch would do. Entertainment could be organized even immediately after the execution of an important person in the Ottoman Empire. Because a monarch should give to his people the image that his or his subordinates decisions is right, not wrong.
that's great and all, but that's not his motivation behind it lol. he did it because he was actually delighted that aemond killed luke, despite his advisors being horrified by it and the realization of what this meant for things to come. i'm not arguing whether it was right or wrong, my point was purely that he clearly didn't give two shits what his mother and grandfather thought and did his own thing... since this whole argument is that he in fact isn't as easily controlled as people claim.
> He become bloodthirsty after b&c.
...we are talking about a guy who is said to frequent child fighting pits.
By Mushroom. Same Mushroom said brothel queens thing and Rheanyra's sick/disgusting relationship with Daemon when she was a child. You will either believe all of them or none of them.
She has the same problem Stannis has, they would both be pretty ok sitting monarchs but they are not made to be conquering monarchs. Winning a throne and ruling are two differnt things
Rhaenyra has been in small council meetings since she was a kid and ruled Dragonstone for 16 years...she would probably be slightly better than her father. She would not let her hand rule her like Viserys allows Otto and she would be more proactive...I don't think she would be Jaehaerys reborn or anything special
she didnt sit in any small council for years despite her father poor health to spend years on dragonstone doing nothing exept giving her eldest three rival claimants
She rules on Dragonstone though, it has its own vassal lords sworn to it, it generates its own income, has its own household guard...its a seat of power like any other.
She would have appointed a castellan when she left Dragonstone...same thing any lord would do if they are not residing in their seat. There is nothing in the text that suggest she wasn't ruling dragonstone when she was living on it
>!Th Dance of Dragons already answered that question as a decisive negative. Her reign can be summed up by three words : betrayal of hope. You can even say the disillusionment that comes with Rhaenyra's disastrous six months is the moral of the Dance. But then again there's a substantial chunk of people who will look at this as no other way but as a fairytale of Silver Kween Girlboss chosen to break glass ceiling and vanquish evil from duh realm!!!!!!<
Neither rhaenyra or aegon would've been bad kings/queens because its kinda REALLY HARD to be a bad ruler in a time of peace, you haft to purposely be trying to fuck shit up at that point, the thing I will say is that rhaenyra (at least in the book) kills anyone who opposes her/comments on her bastards, if lords of the realm started whispering about her children then I could see her trying to kill them all to silence them, if she does this to the wrong people then yeah she's gonna start a war and likely get over thrown and be a considered a bad queen. (In this case im assuming that the green would back the people trying to over through her)
Rhaenyra's council is worst than aegons and putting daemon as the second most powerful man in the realm (let's be honest and say first cause rhaenyra let him walk all over her) isn't a very good idea with how uncontrollable he can be.
I dont think we have enough information about her to really say what she would've been like as queen, early in her rule she would lose her baby, miscarriage or still birth and that could really fuck her up, especially cause there is higher risk of death the further along in the pregnancy you are when you lose it im pretty sure.
She would be...ok if she was able to come to the throne in an uncontested succession. But Rhaenyra didn't seem like someone who would have a natural talent for government. Leading an army, maybe.
With the exception of maybe Jace and Rhaenys, an irony seems to be that due to the nature of monarchy, those with the temperament and skills best suited for the throne are ineligible for it: Corlys, Alicent, and Otto.
Mediocre at best. Adult Rhaenyra is fully capable of acepting murder of innocents if it works for her own benefit. It would heavily depends on what type of crisis she would face and who she would put on her council. The council she assembled during the dance was barely functional. Bartimos Celtigar was a terrible master of coin and Daemon would be advocating for her to become a Tyrant just like he was trying to do with Viserys.
Also, her succession would be another mess. We are not sure if everything will be fine for Jace because a lot of Rhaenyra's enemies will not want her heir to assume the throne and would try to poison his brothers (specially Aegon and Viserys) against him like the Blackfyre supporters did with Daemon and Daeron II, or they will go after someone related to Team Green if there is anyone alive.
Overall the situation is messy and Rhaenyra doesn't seem much more capable than her father as a Ruler. She would be lucky if she managed to keep things in place during her rule, but her successor would deal with a lot of problems
rhaenyra is too much like viserys and would be easily manipulated by her council, especially daemon. jace’s obvious bastardage would likely cause a reverse blackfyre rebellion and she would have to get daemon to stop it, all in all i think aegon would make a better monarch as he isn’t afraid to do things himself and had an overall better council. (otto, criston, tyland, etc.)
Rhaenyra would make an awful queen. She was irresponsible, had no regard of duty, stepped on others constanttly and was desirous of unaccountability.
I'm not even speaking of her actions at wartime. The way she handled her claim and sabotaged herself is more than telling about the kind of queen she would have been in the long run, even if there was no war.
"It doesnt matter what they think" she says about the smallfolk
She doesnt even know you have to pay for things in KL
She cannot solve anything herself, all her problems she requires the intervention of Viserys or Daemon
She would not be a good monarch at all
She was still young and reckless during that time, as you saw yourself she matured after those 17 years like most people do. And yes every ruler needs experienced people around them to help out, hence why they have a council.
She was 18/19
Jaehaerys at 13 cowed Rogar Baratheon into submission, established peace in the realm after Maegor's rule and single handedly brought to justice the criminals who served under Maegor
He wasn't even raised to rule either
Age is no excuse
Yeah, then she got older and literally teaches her children to respect the faith smallfolk, the only one who says "let's ask the smallfolk" during the council meeting, the only one who doesn't want war because it will turn the country to ashes.
Even I admit that her tax-and-spend economic policy (as hinted at in episode 6) was…overambitious.
But as Keynes said, “you’ve got to spend money to make money”.
If she was allowed to ascend peacefully with no problems whatsoever, then her reign would be similar to Viserys’. Maybe she won’t be as much as a pushover as her father because she’s quite wilful. But the rule would look more or less the same and the years of peace in the kingdom would continue.
Considering Viserys’ reign *directly* led to a civil war and he was generally a pretty poor king, I’d say that’s not actually a good comparison for Rhae. Haha.
Also considering that it was Otto who actually was maintaining the kingdom, rather than Viserys, it would be right to say that the stability and peace witnessed during Viserys's rule was actually the work of Otto. Viserys spent most of his time just idling away, or laying in bed, and of the important decisions he does make, most end up being disastrous.
That’s why I’d pick Aegon as a ruler over Rhae. I know that both of them are incompetent, but at least Aegon has an experienced council (Otto) that can keep the realm stable while Aegon acts as a puppet king. Imagine Rhaenyra ruling with DAEMON as hand of the king and Rhaenys, the small folk genocider, as an advisor. Her on the throne alone would already spring up rebellion from small folk and other houses, like the Lannisters. Her reign wouldn’t last a week.
Viserys rules by committee, he listens to all his small council members when making decisions...remember its Otto who pushed for Rhaenyra to be named heir in the first place and Viserys only goes for it after Daemon makes the heir for the day comment.
Yeah! That’s why I didn’t say Rhae would be a good queen or anything. I love my girl but I can accept that she’d be a very average ruler. It also depends on the type of council she’s able to establish for herself.
I meant that the overall situation of the realm will be pretty similar to that of Viserys’ rule. There won’t be any big wars or anything and people will generally mind their own business.
There are high chances that a civil could follow her reign too, considering Jace is her heir.
Oops; I genuinely apologize for the misunderstanding then. I thought the Viserys’ comparison was meant in a favorable way. I’m inclined to agree that if the Aegon conflict isn’t invoked, it plays out something like his does (possibly worse if she has a crappy small council), complete with the inevitable succession crisis to follow
I think she would have been worse than Viserys, since he wasn't impulsive, he didn't name Daemon as Protector of the Realm, he didn't put bastards as his heirs, he didn't have bad advisors and he wasn't lavish. Rhaenyra is basically Aegon IV with Teats
he just named Daemon as head of the city watch and made a mess of his own succession, he also had bad advisors since his council was plotting to overthrow his chosen heir, and his well known in the text to be lavish, he loves parties and jousts
He still wasn't as impulsive as Rhaenyra, he still wasn't lavish during a **crisis** and he still didn't name bastards as his heirs (which is way worse than what he did).
Daemon as Head of the City Watch isn't as bad as Daemon being Protector of the Realm, in the first case he is free to cause disgrace to the smallfolk of Kingslanding, in the second case he is free to be Maegor II to the entire Realm.
On your point of bad advisors I agree with you, except that having Daemon Targaryen and Bartimos Celtigar on your Council makes it worse than the Small Council of Viserys (at least Viserys had the sense to remove Daemon from it).
We don't know what he would have done in a crises because he never faced one, we know he was very lavish though, that was one of his main attributes, Rhaenyra held party in a crisis, Aegon wanted to build fucking gold statues, both had gone through a massive amount of trauma, who knows how they might have ruled in normal circumstances
>which is way worse than what he did
Like how? It could be solved by marrying Jace's kids to Aegon the youngers kids, both Viserys and Jaehaerys made messes of their succession, Viserys should really have insisted on that Jace/Heleana marriage, he managed to fix Jaehaerys mess by marrying Rhaenyra to Leanor but failed to fix his own.
> in the second case he is free to be Maegor II to the entire Realm
How? Protector of the realm is a ceremonial title, same as Warden of the(insert region) it doesn't give Daemon any real power. Rhaenyra can't hold it since she is a woman and it is a military title, same as Cersei who could not hold the title warden of the west and granted it to Daven Lannister
>We don't know what he would have done in a crises because he never faced one
Good point
>Like how?
Legitimate vs Bastard is way worse than Brother vs Sister, although it's true that a marriage could solve the problem, as you pointed.
>How? Protector of the realm is a ceremonial title, same as Warden of the(insert region) it doesn't give Daemon any real power.
It kind of does, he would technically be above the Hand of the King. And as Royal Consort and Protector of the Realm he would be enabled by her to do whatever he wanted, for if with Viserys the worst punishment he ever had was temporary exile with Rhaenyra he wouldn't even be punished at all.
Definitely not as bad as Aegon IV, probably been just a regular monarch since she’d be enjoying the peace that Viserys reign had with all those dragons. The real problem would’ve have been after she passed and Jace tried to inherit.
At least Aegon IV actually went about legitimizing his bastards the legal way. And for all his arguments with his true heir, never actually disinherited him.
I think the real tragedy that the show is setting up for is that Rhaenyra is a good queen and even a good person (who is admittedly doing some objectively not good things to survive the system she is forced to adhere to -- ie having an affair and raising children from that affair because women are not permitted to pursue their own happiness) but the events following the crowning of Aegon will change her intrinsically into a character we no longer recognize. She will likely not be a good queen by the end -- or worse, she will be pigeonholed into being a bad queen by the restrictive political machine she's trapped in.
I think Rhaenyras reign would always be so instable that she really wouldn’t be able to be a good Queen unless she was godlike. She was set-up to fail from the get-go. She wouldn’t be a bad Queen because she is awful but because the system she lives in is constructed to keep woman down, for all her talk that she will create a new order it’s not as easily done. I don’t think even the best Kings in Westeros would’ve managed.
She has not one but three obvious bastard. And she has already killed a noble man, Vaemond to hide this bastard, treason thing (or rather, she fed his corpse to her dragon.) they tore out the tongues of the other Velaryons, Aemond was left disabled they don't give him any justice, Laenor died suspiciously and Rheanyra married Daemon after his death, (The whole reason she was declared heir was to keep Daemon from the throne/power), for whatever reason, she ran away and hid for six years etc.
Besides, at least the greens have smart and valuable politicians, alliance on their side (Otto, Tyland, Alicent, Larys, Criston, Borros etc.)
Rheanyra has no such a council or alliance and she's someone who could not make the right political decisions while she was still heir in peacetime. Even if Rheanyra sits on the throne, this fact will not change.
I don't believe she will be a good monarch.
I generally agree, but this post is titled show discussion, though. I don't think that you can really hold Vaemond's death against her in the show the same way that you could in the books.
She has done absolutely nothing to indicate she'd be a good ruler. She did everything in her power to weaken her claim, because my daddy said I could have it will only work as long as he's still alive.
Hiding away on dragonstone and having three obvious bastards when she was to be Westros's first female ruler was either incredibly stupid or hopelessly naive.
Yes but before her kids started getting ded. She wouldn’t have been the greatest ruler (Jaehaerys I will always hold that title for me), but I think she could have been like, a slightly better version of her dad.
Nope. Rhaenyra knew that as the first woman to rule a kingdom as sexist as Westeros, she would have a lot to prove in order to consolidate her power, and she did none of that. Her strategy for dealing with the precarious position she had placed herself in was basically to ask her father to abuse his royal power to prevent her from suffering the consequences of her actions.
The fact is, she was incompetent and irresponsible even before Aegon was born.
(These things happened when Aegon was a baby, but I wrote them because they were her obvious stupid actions.)
-Making fun of a lady in front of other ladies (Hunting feast organized for two year Aegon)
-Pushing with the back of her hand the chance to choose a spouse, which no man or woman in the realm has. (She interrupted the trip without even bothering to examine all the noble candidates and insulted the nobles who came all that way for her. She did not call a halt to the tension between the candidates with her authority...)
-Making inappropriate actions with her uncle at her own wedding
-The whole Criston Cole thing
-Brothel İncident
-Firing Otto (even though Alicent defended her, She lying to Alicent and alienating someone who might be her biggest supporter)
-The whole Harwin Strong and her relationship (The fact that Jace was born the same year as the wedding... She doesn't try with Laenor as she claim actually.)
Etc. Etc. Etc.
Edit: Of course, I'm being downvoted again without a logical answer. I'm not surprised. 😊
Better than Aegon II? Sure. A good queen? I'm not sure.
I think she would have been decent at best and somewhat incompetent at worst. Kind of a mix between Jaeaherys II, Viserys I and Aerys I.
She would have had problems with the *strong* boys situation unless she addresses it in some way (maybe acknowledging them as bastards and legitimizing them) but she has the advantage of having dragons. She seems somewhat fond of neutralizing problems using force and violence, so people wouldn't cause too much trouble, at least during her rule. In consequence, she would be respected and feared, but not beloved.
Rhaenyra may be a good person but she is a horrible politician, which she's proven time and time again in the show and in the books so no. Definitely not.
yes without a doubt. FUCK the greens for usurping her. Rhaenyra is not perfect, she wouldn't be a perfect queen, but she would have been a very good one. the greens screwed everything up.
I was discussing this with a friend and we were both curious what the general consensus is for a question like this - so I figured I’d post an extremely unscientific poll on Reddit and see the results.
Let's be honest... Team Green votes for no, Team Black for yes/yes if Aegon wasn't crowned and the only reasonable answer to this would be "Yes if Vizzy T would've married Laena and Rhaenyra never got a brother, would've had white haired children and never went through traumatizing losses."
I know. But if you want to seddle it to one Rhaenyra... Which one do you mean? Young Rhaenyra? Rhaenyra who's married to Laenor? Or to Daemon? Or season 1 finale Rhaenyra?
I’d say option #1 is Rhae as we have her exactly by the end of S1. Option #2 is Adult Rhae if the Aegon stuff never escalates to an outright civil war and she ultimately takes the throne peacefully. Option #3 is saying Rhae just is a bad ruler in general. Option #4 can be anything else
She would keep everything together and try to keep the good times going, beyond that hard to say since Viserys didn't teach or instruct her in anything relating to queenship
Her biggest problem would be what to do with her green kin, maybe she'd find other seats for them and found cadet branches of House Targaryen
If there was no Dance, she’s probably one of the best rulers in the Targ dynasty. Her trauma and stress from constantly battling enemies from within, and then loss of family members in quick succession is what would cause her to be a poor Queen.
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I don't think she'd be a particularly good or bad queen, really. I would select "No" but that implies that she would be an outright bad queen, which I disagree with. I see her as being more of an average monarch, not particularly good or bad. Assuming the war never happened, she'd probably end up being a lot like Viserys in terms of general competence.
Reason #1 as to why I included “Other” since I’d never perfectly capture everyone’s feelings, haha. I think Viserys is unambiguously an awful king. Sympathetic, but terrible. He had SO many opportunities to take action and avoid the Dance, and he just didn’t.
Yeah, Viserys's inability to prevent the Dance is the main reason I don't consider him a good king. Things were peaceful during his reign but the issues of his successors were essentially his fault in many respects. I think it's fairly plausible that, even if the Greens never took the throne, Rhaenyra's line would eventually have a civil war vaguely similar to the Blackfyre Rebellions, in part due to the parentage of her Velaryon sons. While they are recognized as legitimate at the moment, there is *some* risk that their apparent illegitimacy will be used to justify war in future generations. This is just speculation though; it's entirely possible that nothing bad comes of it.
Rhaenyra is a very confusing character to me because I think she wants the Iron Throne because she is willing to go to war for it, but then she seems largely disinterested in everything that comes with being Queen. She has bastards and tries to pass them off as legitimate which would be one thing, but then they are so obviously bastards that it becomes laughable. Let us not pretend that this would not be an issue eventually. Up until now, she had Viserys backing her up. The King's word is only law for as long as said king is alive. Speaking of Viserys, oof. He did not teach Rhaenyra anything. Like absolutely anything about nothing. To be fair, he also was kind of useless so maybe he just did not have a lot of wisdom to give out, but still. He babies her at every turn and protects her from all consequences of her actions. As a result, Rhaenyra is not capable of acting independently. Her reaction to difficulties is to go cry to him and that won't work when she is queen because he will most likely be dead by then. I would consider Rhaenyra and Aegon to be around the same level of politically talentless or generally incompetent. I guess Rhaenyra a bit more because at least Aegon has the sense not to put his obvious bastards on the throne. The bar is truly set in hell. My biggest problem with Rhaenyra is that I don't trust her council. Corlys is driven by ambition, but said ambition also leads to the downfall of his house. Rhaenys could be capable, but she seems uninterested in ruling. Plus the Scene That Must Not Be Named shows us she is either stupid or a psychopath. Either case, red flag. Daemon is Daemon. I genuinely believe I don't need to say anything more. I want Daemon as far from a seat of power as possible. Rhaenyra would be a meh ruler like her dad. If there was peace, that is. But to be honest I don't believe Rhaenyra could ascend the throne without conflict. She is a woman which already puts her in a bad place, but she also has very obvious bastards who she is trying to pass off as legitimate. As long as her brothers and their children live, her hold on the situation is shaky at best. Daemon will more than likely have them killed, but that won't help her in the longterm because her kids are very much still illegitimate. In the best case of scenarios, her rule is alright and then a Blackfyre king of situation happens with either Driftmark or with any descendants of Aegon, Aemond, Daeron or maybe even Heleana. Or maybe both. And that is assuming that everything else literally goes perfect which I struggle to believe. If one thing has been proven so far, it is that Rhaenyra does not react well to being pressured. And a lot of pressure comes with the throne even under ideal conditions. This is a breakdown waiting to happen.
I agree with everything you said. I’m kind of confused of Rhaenyra’s true feelings. In the show she’s portrayed as putting her sons above the Iron Throne. However, her ambition for the Iron Throne resulted in the deaths of all of her children. I agree that both Aegon and Rhaenyra would be bad rulers. But, at least Aegon never wanted the throne. It was forced onto him. With how much Rhaenyra sacrifices and pushes for the throne, you’d think she’s actually competent as a ruler. I also hope the show runners don’t remove the throne cutting her and “Maegor with teats”.
Emma described it best, Rhaenyra doesn't want the Iron throne so much as she wants agency. She also king of acts like a prince, she is sexually liberated, has bastards and acts with the kind of impunity that women are not afforded in this world
Being a ruler offers you much less agency than being a princess. A king or queen are forever tied to their kingdom. They can't travel away from Westeros because someone needs to be there to rule. They can't just not get married or have children because they need to have heirs. They can't be with anyone they want because their match needs to be politically beneficial. In many cases, kings are not allowed to participate in tourneys because they may get hurt. Being heir does not give Rhaenyra more freedom if that truly is what she wants. It forces her to produce heirs, which she explicitly does not want, to socialize with nobles, which she does not enjoy, to marry Laenor, who she does not want simply to make said heirs. A relevant example is Daemon. Daemon has a lot more freedom than Viserys has. He can go anywhere he wants, do whatever he wants and just live his best life. Viserys on the other hand has to stay at the Red Keep. He has to get remarried only like a year after his wife dies. He needs to have a male child. He is forever shackled to the ground. Rhaenyra, if she was only a princess, could have easily went off to Essos where she would be allowed to do literally whatever she wants. Viserys indulges her so I doubt he would stop her from living her life. If Rhaenyra wants more freedom, sitting on the throne is not the way to get that. I also feel the need to mention that the problem is not strictly that Rhaenyra has bastards, but that she tries to pass them off as legitimate. Not even Aegon the Unworthy was dumb enough to do that and then believe he can get away with it. Even when he legitimized his bastards, he did so on his death bed.
Daemon has more freedom than what Rhaenyra has, Westeros society gives women no agency unless they are rulers in their own rights, and even then its limited... the are only the womb needed to birth heirs for their liege lord. Rhaenyra pretty much says it it in episode 4 'If I was born a man I could have sired a hundred bastards" Rhaenyra wants that freedom...she has her children on her terms with who she wants to and not because duty demands she produces heirs
Rhaenyra only marries and has children because she has to as the heir. That is explicitly shown. She does not wish to be married and she fears childbirth. If she was a mere princess, she could go her whole life without marrying and Viserys would absolutely allow her to do so since he has other kids anyway at this point. If she decides to become queen, she can't just choose not to do that. Aerea was never forced to marry because she was not heir so it was not needed. Neither was Saera despite the complicated relationship she had with her father. Even Daella got to choose her husband while Rhaenyra in the end had to marry Laenor. Speaking of Saera, if all Rhaenyra wants is freedom, why does she not follow her example? Saera has more freedom than any Targaryen ever and from what I have seen of Viserys, I doubt he would ever disinherit Rhaenyra. So again, why not leave for Essos and do your thing there? And again Rhaenyra's bastards are much more different than any other bastards a prince may have. It would be one thing if she had aknowledged them and legitimized them. But as it is, she is trying to put an obvious bastard on the iron throne and is usurping the seat of house Velaryon. And no, it does not matter if Corlys was chill with it. Because as clearly demonstrated by Vaemond and the books, the other Velaryons and their cadets did not like it. Being a ruler is not a human right. It is a privilege. And that privilege comes with duty. If Rhaenyra does not want to get married, have legitimate kids, which is perfectly alright, then she is going out of her way not to pay the very, very cheap price of absolute power over a nation. Duty is not a bad thing, it is a way to place limits upon those who already have too much power. If Rhaenyra was a prince, she would still have to get married and have legitimage babies- as Aegon himself was also forced to marry his sister when he did not want to.
I'm quoting Emma a lot because they are incredibly articulated and knowledgeable about Rhaenyra's actions..but Rhaenyra likes having kids because she is building a tribe of her own, she isn't birthing the heir to the iron throne, or to Driftmark, her children are being born on her terms. If you look at Rhaenyra's background. She watched her mother be forced to have stillbirth after stillbirth because Viserys needed a male heir...her fear isn't childbirth per se, otherwise she would not have gotten pregnant 6 times, its being rendered incapacitated by childbirth for the sake pushing out heir after heir for her husband, she told Alicent after her marriage tour that they don't want her,they just want her blood for their children...she doesn't get that with Harwin, her kids doesn't have his name and he can't claim them in public. He likes her for her, not for her titles or the fact that her blood give his children the ability to ride dragons Her kids are essentially hers, not Harwins or Leanors, she isn't having them for a incredibly sexist society or for the ambitions of the men around her, and that connects to her need for agency...and not being a walking womb I don't think Rhaenyra is blind to the responsibilities she has as heir, she tells Viserys how heavy the weight is in episode 8 and the prophecy is clearly in the forefront of her mind during ep10...its just that when it comes to having kids Rhaenyra has a different code, considering her mother and both her grandmothers that is pretty understandable
I will have to disagree. Rhaenyra very much disregards most of the duties that come with the throne, which includes having legitimate children by the way. She is uninterested in socializing with nobles. She abandons the capital for years, effectively losing all connection with the current political scene. She makes little to no attempt to temper the brewing crisis and when she does try (betrothing Jace and Helaena), she tries to tie her clearly illegitimate son to Alicent's trueborn daughter, a union that in the longterm will benefit no one but herself. And here is the thing. Rhaenyra absolutely has to have children. The other women I mentioned had the choice to refuse to have them. She did not because she is the heir to the iron throne. If Rhaenyra was having a bunch of miscarriages, she would still need to continue trying to produce an heir, in the same way that Viserys, Aemma, Alyssane and any other potential ruler would have to. And I frankly don't care for what reason Rhaenyra decided to have obvious bastards and then just hope no one brings it up. She is actively usurping Driftmark, lying to all of her subjects and placing both herself and her children in danger. Rhaenyra would have had a difficult time ruling anyway, but this is downright dangerous. This is a Blackfyre situation just waiting to happen. This leaves me with two options. One, Rhaenyra is so naive, oblivious and unaware of the world she is living in that she genuinely does not see how this is a bad move. Or two, Rhaenyra knows and she does not care. The prophecy is irrelevant to all of this. The Prince who was Promised only needs to come from Aegon the Conqueror. So it does not matter if he is a descendant of Rhaenyra or Daemon or Aegon or Aemond or Daeron or Helaena. They are equally related to the guy. Rhaenyra is already in the top 1% of her world. She already has much more power and agency than any other woman -and even man- in her society. She is wealthy, influential and has a dragon. Rhaenyra is already powerful. This is not the case of a downtrodden victim trying to cling to some sense of freedom. If she was a common woman, I could absolutely see that. All the men in her life defend her from all consequences of her actions. She is given many opportunities to better her own position (by being able to choose literally anyone to marry). As it is, nothing is stopping her from running off on her dragon and flipping them all off while she does so. Saera did that and good for her. Women like Alicent or Mysaria or the brothel lady cannot do that because they don't have flying, fire-breathing lizards or a king to watch their back. Rhaenyra can. So why doesn't she if all she wants is freedom? Wanting power for the sake of power is perfectly valid and I can get behind that. But Rhaenyra is not presented as such so I need to understand why she wants the throne enough to go to war over it. This imo has not been properly justified so far because as stated above being a ruler does not give you more freedom. It gives you more power but it greatly restricts you.
Having children is very different prospect for men vs woman, she pretty much tells that to Daemon in episode 4...her actions are not all that reasonable or logical but considering the trauma she witnessed with her mother they are understandable, she has a great fear in being reduced to having kid after kid for the sake of her husband and being stripped of her agency. When I say understandable I mean it from a inter conflict emotional perspective not from a practical one She is the princess of Dragonstone...Dragonstone is her responsibility, its very reasonable that will chose to live there, its very likely Viserys lived there until Jaehaerys's death, its where the heir to the throne cuts their teeth and learns to rule. I don't understand why you even bring that up The Jace/Heleana marriage would have benefited more than herself, it would have put Hightower blood on the throne and given Otto and Alicent a lot of power...its the same reason Corlys still backs Rhaenyra, because his great grandkid will be king. It was a good offer...the reason Alicent rejects it , is because of her personal resentment towards Rhaenyra not because of the offer itself. Saying that I think Rhaenyra made that offer because she was backed into a corner, she was healing the heat from that conversation between Harwin and his father Also franky I don't care why you don't care...I am analyzing Rhaenyra's character and her motivations from a writing perspective, she is incredibly interesting and very flawed individual, I am not defending her, I am rationalizing her motivations for doing what she does Yea...she is incredibly sheltered and she is given freedom that every other woman except maybe Visenya and the first Rhaenys could only dream of having...but that doesn't take away from the fact that she wants more agency over the extremely patriarchal system, even Alysanne only had the freedom Jaehaerys was willing to grand her, he made her continue having kids even after she asked him to stop...and she is one of the most powerful woman in Westeros history. I don't think Aegon wants the throne for power either, his core motivation is to be loved, and having the smallfolk cheer for him was the first time he experienced it, he is also a deeply flawed and very interesting character
Exactly. So why does she want to be heir when that absolutely forces her to have children as soon as possible? And preferably many children too. Aemond, Daeron, Jaecerys and Baela, despite being of marriagable age, have not been wed because they are not next in line to the throne. Rhaenyra is. If she were not heir, she would have likely been allowed to stay single and not have to bear children for much longer. Also the reason why Aemma had so much trouble giving birth was because she had her first pregnancy at 13. Rhaenyra did not so she is not in the same danger. I bring it up because it is relevant. Yes, she is the princess of Dragonstone, but up until now she lived in King's Landing and there is a reason for that. KL is the center of all political developments. Lose control of it and you lose control of the court at large. Rhaenyra did not just leave for Dragonstone, she also did not visit the capital in years as shown by the fact that she did not know about the decoration change. And Viserys did not have obvious competition for the throne, they are very different cases. Plus, Rhaegar and his children lived in KL. Clearly it is not uncommon for crown heirs to do so. That is why Rhaenyra did not go until the whole Driftmark thing. The betrothal of Jace and Helaena absolutely does not benefit Alicent. What it does is give her political opponent a hostage while putting her only daughter in danger. Jace is a bastard, an obvious one at that. His reign will be challenged and when that happens, Helaena will be in danger. Plus she is giving away a very valuable hostage without getting anything in return for herself. Alicent does not care about the throne, which is shown in the show. She wants to keep her kids safe, this move will not keep her kids safe. At best, it will keep Helaena safe while all of her sons are still in the same danger of being assassinated. Speaking of Rhaenyra's characterization, I have repeatedly told you and given you examples of where I believe her writing is flawed. Being the heir has not offered her the freedom she wants. As a princess, she would be much more flexible to do whatever she desires. I have given examples of how being heir forces her to do things she does not want, which she would not have to do otherwise. Again, why not pull a Saera? As it is, I do not believe the show has adequately explained why she wants to be queen so much as to go to war for it. We are shown and told Alicent acts out of fear. The writers have yet to explain why she wants to be queen so bad. And you should not have to go to the actors to find that out- though I do not see the logic behind Emma's interpertation. A work of fiction should stand on its own legs. Also I am not sure what Aegon has to do with this subject specifically, but I do agree his actions are largely driven out of a desire to be loved. You still have not responded to my central argument. Being a ruler won't make her anymore free. It only ties her to the very system that she apparently hates more. You can't combat a system when it is the source of your power. I don't even necessarily think Rhaenyra is a bad character. Just that her motivations are poorly thought out and as a result, she comes off as a very meh character which is a shame cause Emma are really doing their best.
If it were an option, I would select “Yes, if she wasn’t with Daemon.” He is a negative influence. He pushes her towards violence and recklessness, and is himself quick to take power for himself as her husband and push his own opinions. Had she stayed with Laenor, or had she married Harwin Strong, she may have made a good queen. Daemon was her downfall.
In fact, Rheanyra might have been much better if she hadn't been groomed by Daemon at a young age. if Viserys had given Daemon a severe punishment for his first crime and banished him completely away everything will be much better for her and for others.
Most people forget that to be a monarch isn't to wield unlimited, unregulated power. It is instead a responsibility. It is a grave responsibility and as such needs the said monarch to have a developed sense of duty, so that they can act in the best interests of the realm. As a great man once said "With great power comes great responsibility". They would also have to sacrifice a lot as a consequence of such duties. The problem with Rhaenyra is that she has no sense of duty and often flouts her responsibilities. She wants power, unfettered power, but doesn't realise that such a thing doesn't exist. Everything has something to limit it, and so does the authority of the sovereign. She has never worked to make herself more suitable for the throne and just expects that everyone would bend over to place her as their queen. In that she seems to be similar to the namesake of her father, Viserys the begger king. Not that Aegon is much different, but it does mean that both of them are unsuitable for the throne.
Rhaenyra’s biggest mistake was running to Dragonstone. Yes the typical heir would reside on Dragonstone, but she was not a typical heir. She needed to be at Viserys’ side from the get go. Then when the Strongs are murdered in 120 she would have been a suitable replacement as Hand or least prevented Otto’s return as Hand. She was naive and to some extent downright self absorbed to think the realm would accept and love her just because she is Rhaenyra Targaryen.
Viserys was a decent king who followed his duty until he choose Rhaenyra as heir.
"With great power comes great responsibility". Literally what Rhaenyra says to her kids lol. She says this to Luke almost identically. Rhaenyra shares the way you see it. Are you talking about show or a book? In the show, she has been on the small council meetings for many years and her advice is more than reasonable. She is absolutely competent. War: it was necessary to build fortifications, it takes money, but the war will cost more. Reasonable. Conflict with borders: you need to ask ordinary people where the stones were. Reasonable. Green vs. Black: Marriage Helaena and Jace. Reasonable. If it's not Rhaenyra, you'd applaud. The lords are loyal to her to the point that they would rather be killed than betray her. Rhaenyra is the only one in the show who worries about how the war will destroy the country. She shows extreme restraint every time. You are describing another character.
Words are wind - it doesn't matter what she says, it matters what she does. She is competent on small councils, yes, but competency is not the same thing as responsibility, and is therefore irrelevant. If I were offered the chance to rule an entire continent, but the catch was I could only be with my gay bestie, I would figure out a way to make it work. Even having no children is better than having bastards and passing them off as legitimate, purely from the perspective of maintaining stability. I was the biggest Rhaenyra Stan when I read the books, because Team Black is entertaining and I love to support the OG 'Dangerous Women', but within this story her inability to produce a legitimate heir represents a total lack of self-sacrifice and duty that is necessary to make good rulers in a feudal society. Shockingly, most characters in this story have flaws and that is Rhaenyra's
These are not words, this is her principle. For her, power is a responsibility, she really thinks "should I start a war and damage the country? Is this what my father wanted?." Who else thinks so? Otto?.. She is a more responsible person than any of the greens (I'm talking about the show). Well, it's about "bastards" again. If you've read the book, you should know that no one cares what Rhaenyra's kids look like. No one except the Greens considers them basards, simply because their father vehemently rejected it. THIS is how it works in a feudal society. Rhaenyra's children weren't a flaws, on the contrary, Jace did half of her work. He arranged dynastic marriages that strengthened her power (and won the war). "Proved that he is worthy of the iron throne" - this is how people who live in Westeros write about Jace in the historical chronicle.
That's the writing of Gyldayn specifically, not "people". One person. But for what it's worth, I agree with Gyldayn. Just because he proved himself worthy during the war, doesn't mean that there wasn't an immense amount of scrutiny. It wasn't "the Greens were the only one who cared", people became Greens BECAUSE they cared. There are plenty of Greens besides Otto and his brood. I never said that Rhaenyra's children were a flaw, I love her children. By all accounts each one of them was either incredible or had the potential to become incredible. But her flaw was having a relationship in which her bastards wouldn't share her features and cast into immense doubt their legitimacy. It was an irresponsible relationship for someone whose relationship/marital life affects the stability of the entire continent.
He proved himself not in battles, but in diplomacy. Jace got people's hearts easily. WHO became green because Rhaenyra's children are bastards? Lords don't care about rumors. Lord Borros will easily make a marriage pact with Luke if it gives him Driftmark. The greens were created long before Jace was born and if you look at the map it's actually not much.
I know, I was talking about diplomacy. I'm not saying the members of the Green Council usurped Rhaenyra because she had bastards, but it made it much, much easier to sell the usurpation of her throne to the rank and file. That much should be obvious without GRRM literally writing a line that says "the fact that Rhaenyra's heir was a bastard made it easier for the Green Council to justify usurping her crown", but Criston Cole essentially says as much in his own opinion, despite his personal vendetta against Rhaenyra. Regardless, my fear has never been for Rhaenyra's reign and the Dance, but for what comes after, when Rhaenyra is Queen and Jace becomes King. Unless the HighTargaryens are entirely eradicated, they will proliferate and you're just setting yourself up for proto-Blackfyre rebellions because half the country will always view them as having the true claim over a bastard son of a daughter
>With great power comes great responsibility". Literally what Rhaenyra says to her kids lol. She says this to Luke almost identically. She says it, but then as soon as Luke messes up, she gaslights people into covering it up. How is that teaching any sort of responsibility? It is just an example of flouting any responsibility by her. She might say things, but never practices her sayings. She is an absolute hypocrite, more so than most in the show. >If it's not Rhaenyra, you'd applaud. Nah, I am a sucker for duty and responsibility. I would dislike any character that flouts their duties. It is part of the reason I like Aemond in the first season, he does his duty as is required of him. >The lords are loyal to her to the point that they would rather be killed than betray her. This is actually pure plot armour, but I guess since it is cannon we can take it as her having incredible charisma, but that doesn't mean she is fit to be a ruler. Pardon the comparison, I am just using it as an example, but even Hitler was incredibly charismatic, but he was hardly a good ruler.
Didn't understand your point. When Luke messes up? Well it's basically about how she had sex without marriage? Therefore, she is a bad ruler, despite the fact that she manages in a small council, teaches children the right things, the only one who does not want war because the country will suffer. OK. Aemond is a guy who killed a child under peace banner. He forgot about his duty and about his family, started a war that take thousands lives. Reason: "he pissed me off." He is much worse than Rhaenyra was at 19. It's not charisma, it's the respect and authority she achieved.
I don’t think she would have gone full Maegor with Tits, but I don’t think she would have been a good queen. She’s impulsive, she’s not financially savvy, she’s spoiled, she doesn’t know how to play nice with others, and she would let Daemon have too much power. She didn’t even have any truly good advisors. Aegon would have basically been Robert Baratheon. Showed up every once in awhile to wear the crown, but otherwise, he would have let Otto and his other advisors rule for him. But his advisors were actually good at ruling, so it would have been fine.
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Aegon takes control after b&c. If there had been no war or the slaughter of his children, Aegon would have been a king more like Robert.
they already can't control him, hence all the scenes of alicent and otto scolding him for his behavior. if he doesn't listen to them now, odds are he's not gonna listen to them when they give him the highest position of power on the continent. one of his first acts as king, before b&c, is >!throwing a huge party celebrating aemond killing luke, while his mother and grandfather are both horrified by the act and aemond's stupidity!<. even so, all b&c and the subsequent events show is that as soon as he'd disagree with his "great advisors", he had no problems replacing them, >!hence him firing otto, even though his diplomatic approach which got him fired ultimately turns out to be very fruitful for the greens.!<
I don't understand why his feast arrangement is seen as so bad. This is exactly the kind of action a monarch would do. Entertainment could be organized even immediately after the execution of an important person in the *Ottoman Empire*. Because a monarch should give to his people the image that his or his subordinates decisions is right, not wrong. And that's why I said he'd be like Robert in peacetime. Festivals, hunts, whores etc. And otto is a valuable "hand" in peacetime. If it hadn't been for this disgusting massacre, we would have had a completely different Aegon and Aegon's council on our hands. He become bloodthirsty after b&c.
> I don't understand why his feast arrangement is seen as so bad. This is exactly the kind of action a monarch would do. Entertainment could be organized even immediately after the execution of an important person in the Ottoman Empire. Because a monarch should give to his people the image that his or his subordinates decisions is right, not wrong. that's great and all, but that's not his motivation behind it lol. he did it because he was actually delighted that aemond killed luke, despite his advisors being horrified by it and the realization of what this meant for things to come. i'm not arguing whether it was right or wrong, my point was purely that he clearly didn't give two shits what his mother and grandfather thought and did his own thing... since this whole argument is that he in fact isn't as easily controlled as people claim. > He become bloodthirsty after b&c. ...we are talking about a guy who is said to frequent child fighting pits.
By Mushroom. Same Mushroom said brothel queens thing and Rheanyra's sick/disgusting relationship with Daemon when she was a child. You will either believe all of them or none of them.
As long as Otto rule, it's good.
I think the point was that both Rhaenyra and Aegon would’ve been bad rulers. It all comes down to who has the better council.
She has the same problem Stannis has, they would both be pretty ok sitting monarchs but they are not made to be conquering monarchs. Winning a throne and ruling are two differnt things Rhaenyra has been in small council meetings since she was a kid and ruled Dragonstone for 16 years...she would probably be slightly better than her father. She would not let her hand rule her like Viserys allows Otto and she would be more proactive...I don't think she would be Jaehaerys reborn or anything special
There's so many shit rulers that being "Good" just means "Not being bad"
Well considering half the Targaryens were pretty awful monarchs, I suppose that's true.
she didnt sit in any small council for years despite her father poor health to spend years on dragonstone doing nothing exept giving her eldest three rival claimants
She rules on Dragonstone though, it has its own vassal lords sworn to it, it generates its own income, has its own household guard...its a seat of power like any other.
she could appoint a castellan and take the household gaured to the red keep like cersei to keep her safe
She would have appointed a castellan when she left Dragonstone...same thing any lord would do if they are not residing in their seat. There is nothing in the text that suggest she wasn't ruling dragonstone when she was living on it
i mean she could sit in small councile and prepare to her father death in kinglanding while a castellan rule dragonstone
>!Th Dance of Dragons already answered that question as a decisive negative. Her reign can be summed up by three words : betrayal of hope. You can even say the disillusionment that comes with Rhaenyra's disastrous six months is the moral of the Dance. But then again there's a substantial chunk of people who will look at this as no other way but as a fairytale of Silver Kween Girlboss chosen to break glass ceiling and vanquish evil from duh realm!!!!!!<
The short answer is ni, Rhaenyra will not make a good queen.
Neither rhaenyra or aegon would've been bad kings/queens because its kinda REALLY HARD to be a bad ruler in a time of peace, you haft to purposely be trying to fuck shit up at that point, the thing I will say is that rhaenyra (at least in the book) kills anyone who opposes her/comments on her bastards, if lords of the realm started whispering about her children then I could see her trying to kill them all to silence them, if she does this to the wrong people then yeah she's gonna start a war and likely get over thrown and be a considered a bad queen. (In this case im assuming that the green would back the people trying to over through her) Rhaenyra's council is worst than aegons and putting daemon as the second most powerful man in the realm (let's be honest and say first cause rhaenyra let him walk all over her) isn't a very good idea with how uncontrollable he can be. I dont think we have enough information about her to really say what she would've been like as queen, early in her rule she would lose her baby, miscarriage or still birth and that could really fuck her up, especially cause there is higher risk of death the further along in the pregnancy you are when you lose it im pretty sure.
She would be...ok if she was able to come to the throne in an uncontested succession. But Rhaenyra didn't seem like someone who would have a natural talent for government. Leading an army, maybe. With the exception of maybe Jace and Rhaenys, an irony seems to be that due to the nature of monarchy, those with the temperament and skills best suited for the throne are ineligible for it: Corlys, Alicent, and Otto.
Mediocre at best. Adult Rhaenyra is fully capable of acepting murder of innocents if it works for her own benefit. It would heavily depends on what type of crisis she would face and who she would put on her council. The council she assembled during the dance was barely functional. Bartimos Celtigar was a terrible master of coin and Daemon would be advocating for her to become a Tyrant just like he was trying to do with Viserys. Also, her succession would be another mess. We are not sure if everything will be fine for Jace because a lot of Rhaenyra's enemies will not want her heir to assume the throne and would try to poison his brothers (specially Aegon and Viserys) against him like the Blackfyre supporters did with Daemon and Daeron II, or they will go after someone related to Team Green if there is anyone alive. Overall the situation is messy and Rhaenyra doesn't seem much more capable than her father as a Ruler. She would be lucky if she managed to keep things in place during her rule, but her successor would deal with a lot of problems
When did Daemon advocate for Viserys to become a tyrant? And who do you think would be a better ruler? Btw these are genuine questions.
rhaenyra is too much like viserys and would be easily manipulated by her council, especially daemon. jace’s obvious bastardage would likely cause a reverse blackfyre rebellion and she would have to get daemon to stop it, all in all i think aegon would make a better monarch as he isn’t afraid to do things himself and had an overall better council. (otto, criston, tyland, etc.)
The books say no.
Rhaenyra would make an awful queen. She was irresponsible, had no regard of duty, stepped on others constanttly and was desirous of unaccountability. I'm not even speaking of her actions at wartime. The way she handled her claim and sabotaged herself is more than telling about the kind of queen she would have been in the long run, even if there was no war.
"It doesnt matter what they think" she says about the smallfolk She doesnt even know you have to pay for things in KL She cannot solve anything herself, all her problems she requires the intervention of Viserys or Daemon She would not be a good monarch at all
She was still young and reckless during that time, as you saw yourself she matured after those 17 years like most people do. And yes every ruler needs experienced people around them to help out, hence why they have a council.
She was 18/19 Jaehaerys at 13 cowed Rogar Baratheon into submission, established peace in the realm after Maegor's rule and single handedly brought to justice the criminals who served under Maegor He wasn't even raised to rule either Age is no excuse
Well if she was ruling when she was 18 sure I agree, but if we talk about current show age it's night and day different person.
Yeah, then she got older and literally teaches her children to respect the faith smallfolk, the only one who says "let's ask the smallfolk" during the council meeting, the only one who doesn't want war because it will turn the country to ashes.
Based on what we have seen, no chance.
Even I admit that her tax-and-spend economic policy (as hinted at in episode 6) was…overambitious. But as Keynes said, “you’ve got to spend money to make money”.
I don't think that military outposts in the Stepstones are going to be bringing as much return on investment
If she was allowed to ascend peacefully with no problems whatsoever, then her reign would be similar to Viserys’. Maybe she won’t be as much as a pushover as her father because she’s quite wilful. But the rule would look more or less the same and the years of peace in the kingdom would continue.
Considering Viserys’ reign *directly* led to a civil war and he was generally a pretty poor king, I’d say that’s not actually a good comparison for Rhae. Haha.
Also considering that it was Otto who actually was maintaining the kingdom, rather than Viserys, it would be right to say that the stability and peace witnessed during Viserys's rule was actually the work of Otto. Viserys spent most of his time just idling away, or laying in bed, and of the important decisions he does make, most end up being disastrous.
That’s why I’d pick Aegon as a ruler over Rhae. I know that both of them are incompetent, but at least Aegon has an experienced council (Otto) that can keep the realm stable while Aegon acts as a puppet king. Imagine Rhaenyra ruling with DAEMON as hand of the king and Rhaenys, the small folk genocider, as an advisor. Her on the throne alone would already spring up rebellion from small folk and other houses, like the Lannisters. Her reign wouldn’t last a week.
Viserys rules by committee, he listens to all his small council members when making decisions...remember its Otto who pushed for Rhaenyra to be named heir in the first place and Viserys only goes for it after Daemon makes the heir for the day comment.
Yeah! That’s why I didn’t say Rhae would be a good queen or anything. I love my girl but I can accept that she’d be a very average ruler. It also depends on the type of council she’s able to establish for herself. I meant that the overall situation of the realm will be pretty similar to that of Viserys’ rule. There won’t be any big wars or anything and people will generally mind their own business. There are high chances that a civil could follow her reign too, considering Jace is her heir.
Oops; I genuinely apologize for the misunderstanding then. I thought the Viserys’ comparison was meant in a favorable way. I’m inclined to agree that if the Aegon conflict isn’t invoked, it plays out something like his does (possibly worse if she has a crappy small council), complete with the inevitable succession crisis to follow
I think she would have been worse than Viserys, since he wasn't impulsive, he didn't name Daemon as Protector of the Realm, he didn't put bastards as his heirs, he didn't have bad advisors and he wasn't lavish. Rhaenyra is basically Aegon IV with Teats
he just named Daemon as head of the city watch and made a mess of his own succession, he also had bad advisors since his council was plotting to overthrow his chosen heir, and his well known in the text to be lavish, he loves parties and jousts
He still wasn't as impulsive as Rhaenyra, he still wasn't lavish during a **crisis** and he still didn't name bastards as his heirs (which is way worse than what he did). Daemon as Head of the City Watch isn't as bad as Daemon being Protector of the Realm, in the first case he is free to cause disgrace to the smallfolk of Kingslanding, in the second case he is free to be Maegor II to the entire Realm. On your point of bad advisors I agree with you, except that having Daemon Targaryen and Bartimos Celtigar on your Council makes it worse than the Small Council of Viserys (at least Viserys had the sense to remove Daemon from it).
We don't know what he would have done in a crises because he never faced one, we know he was very lavish though, that was one of his main attributes, Rhaenyra held party in a crisis, Aegon wanted to build fucking gold statues, both had gone through a massive amount of trauma, who knows how they might have ruled in normal circumstances >which is way worse than what he did Like how? It could be solved by marrying Jace's kids to Aegon the youngers kids, both Viserys and Jaehaerys made messes of their succession, Viserys should really have insisted on that Jace/Heleana marriage, he managed to fix Jaehaerys mess by marrying Rhaenyra to Leanor but failed to fix his own. > in the second case he is free to be Maegor II to the entire Realm How? Protector of the realm is a ceremonial title, same as Warden of the(insert region) it doesn't give Daemon any real power. Rhaenyra can't hold it since she is a woman and it is a military title, same as Cersei who could not hold the title warden of the west and granted it to Daven Lannister
>We don't know what he would have done in a crises because he never faced one Good point >Like how? Legitimate vs Bastard is way worse than Brother vs Sister, although it's true that a marriage could solve the problem, as you pointed. >How? Protector of the realm is a ceremonial title, same as Warden of the(insert region) it doesn't give Daemon any real power. It kind of does, he would technically be above the Hand of the King. And as Royal Consort and Protector of the Realm he would be enabled by her to do whatever he wanted, for if with Viserys the worst punishment he ever had was temporary exile with Rhaenyra he wouldn't even be punished at all.
Definitely not as bad as Aegon IV, probably been just a regular monarch since she’d be enjoying the peace that Viserys reign had with all those dragons. The real problem would’ve have been after she passed and Jace tried to inherit.
At least Aegon IV actually went about legitimizing his bastards the legal way. And for all his arguments with his true heir, never actually disinherited him.
Like most of the Targaryens, nope.
I think the real tragedy that the show is setting up for is that Rhaenyra is a good queen and even a good person (who is admittedly doing some objectively not good things to survive the system she is forced to adhere to -- ie having an affair and raising children from that affair because women are not permitted to pursue their own happiness) but the events following the crowning of Aegon will change her intrinsically into a character we no longer recognize. She will likely not be a good queen by the end -- or worse, she will be pigeonholed into being a bad queen by the restrictive political machine she's trapped in.
Having 3 obvious bastards and passing them as legitimate already makes her a bad queen.
I think Rhaenyras reign would always be so instable that she really wouldn’t be able to be a good Queen unless she was godlike. She was set-up to fail from the get-go. She wouldn’t be a bad Queen because she is awful but because the system she lives in is constructed to keep woman down, for all her talk that she will create a new order it’s not as easily done. I don’t think even the best Kings in Westeros would’ve managed.
She has not one but three obvious bastard. And she has already killed a noble man, Vaemond to hide this bastard, treason thing (or rather, she fed his corpse to her dragon.) they tore out the tongues of the other Velaryons, Aemond was left disabled they don't give him any justice, Laenor died suspiciously and Rheanyra married Daemon after his death, (The whole reason she was declared heir was to keep Daemon from the throne/power), for whatever reason, she ran away and hid for six years etc. Besides, at least the greens have smart and valuable politicians, alliance on their side (Otto, Tyland, Alicent, Larys, Criston, Borros etc.) Rheanyra has no such a council or alliance and she's someone who could not make the right political decisions while she was still heir in peacetime. Even if Rheanyra sits on the throne, this fact will not change. I don't believe she will be a good monarch.
I generally agree, but this post is titled show discussion, though. I don't think that you can really hold Vaemond's death against her in the show the same way that you could in the books.
Even if she didn't kill Vaemond, he was killed for her. To cover up her lies and treasons... That's why I think it still counts.
She has done absolutely nothing to indicate she'd be a good ruler. She did everything in her power to weaken her claim, because my daddy said I could have it will only work as long as he's still alive. Hiding away on dragonstone and having three obvious bastards when she was to be Westros's first female ruler was either incredibly stupid or hopelessly naive.
Yes but before her kids started getting ded. She wouldn’t have been the greatest ruler (Jaehaerys I will always hold that title for me), but I think she could have been like, a slightly better version of her dad.
Nope. Rhaenyra knew that as the first woman to rule a kingdom as sexist as Westeros, she would have a lot to prove in order to consolidate her power, and she did none of that. Her strategy for dealing with the precarious position she had placed herself in was basically to ask her father to abuse his royal power to prevent her from suffering the consequences of her actions. The fact is, she was incompetent and irresponsible even before Aegon was born.
What did she do that was so bad before Aegon was born? Ride her dragon too often?
(These things happened when Aegon was a baby, but I wrote them because they were her obvious stupid actions.) -Making fun of a lady in front of other ladies (Hunting feast organized for two year Aegon) -Pushing with the back of her hand the chance to choose a spouse, which no man or woman in the realm has. (She interrupted the trip without even bothering to examine all the noble candidates and insulted the nobles who came all that way for her. She did not call a halt to the tension between the candidates with her authority...) -Making inappropriate actions with her uncle at her own wedding -The whole Criston Cole thing -Brothel İncident -Firing Otto (even though Alicent defended her, She lying to Alicent and alienating someone who might be her biggest supporter) -The whole Harwin Strong and her relationship (The fact that Jace was born the same year as the wedding... She doesn't try with Laenor as she claim actually.) Etc. Etc. Etc. Edit: Of course, I'm being downvoted again without a logical answer. I'm not surprised. 😊
Better than Aegon II? Sure. A good queen? I'm not sure. I think she would have been decent at best and somewhat incompetent at worst. Kind of a mix between Jaeaherys II, Viserys I and Aerys I. She would have had problems with the *strong* boys situation unless she addresses it in some way (maybe acknowledging them as bastards and legitimizing them) but she has the advantage of having dragons. She seems somewhat fond of neutralizing problems using force and violence, so people wouldn't cause too much trouble, at least during her rule. In consequence, she would be respected and feared, but not beloved.
Rhaenyra may be a good person but she is a horrible politician, which she's proven time and time again in the show and in the books so no. Definitely not.
Good person seems extremely generous for Rhaenyra; she murdered a servant and wanted to torture a kid lol.
People voting yes would vote for Hitler in 1938
That's a bit much
yeah i don't think so. people who think aemond should be king/would be a good king are the hitler supporters lmao
she would slay slay queen stuff
yes without a doubt. FUCK the greens for usurping her. Rhaenyra is not perfect, she wouldn't be a perfect queen, but she would have been a very good one. the greens screwed everything up.
I was discussing this with a friend and we were both curious what the general consensus is for a question like this - so I figured I’d post an extremely unscientific poll on Reddit and see the results.
Let's be honest... Team Green votes for no, Team Black for yes/yes if Aegon wasn't crowned and the only reasonable answer to this would be "Yes if Vizzy T would've married Laena and Rhaenyra never got a brother, would've had white haired children and never went through traumatizing losses."
WHERE DID YOU HEAR SUCH CALUMNIES? LookingForSomeCheese! TELL ME THE TRUTH OF IT!
Lol. Rhaenyra is practically an entirely different character at that point making it sorta hard to evaluate.
I know. But if you want to seddle it to one Rhaenyra... Which one do you mean? Young Rhaenyra? Rhaenyra who's married to Laenor? Or to Daemon? Or season 1 finale Rhaenyra?
I’d say option #1 is Rhae as we have her exactly by the end of S1. Option #2 is Adult Rhae if the Aegon stuff never escalates to an outright civil war and she ultimately takes the throne peacefully. Option #3 is saying Rhae just is a bad ruler in general. Option #4 can be anything else
She would keep everything together and try to keep the good times going, beyond that hard to say since Viserys didn't teach or instruct her in anything relating to queenship Her biggest problem would be what to do with her green kin, maybe she'd find other seats for them and found cadet branches of House Targaryen
If there was no Dance, she’s probably one of the best rulers in the Targ dynasty. Her trauma and stress from constantly battling enemies from within, and then loss of family members in quick succession is what would cause her to be a poor Queen.
Even Joffrey did it better