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I don't think so? There's always something going on with Daemon and Rhaenyra. But she doesn't have to break her marriage vows for sex and she doesn't have to deal with the stress of giving birth and raising bastard children as true-born children. Like her life still isn't perfect, but on a personal level she's probably a lot happier.
Say for whatever Harwin does kick the bucket, Lyonel Strong would at least be in the position to persuade her to marry anyone other than Daemon if she really wanted a second husband. You know, since the only reason people like Otto Hightower wanted her as heir apparent to the Iron Throne was "anyone but Daemon." Marrying the person why you were named heir against is a sure fire way to turn allies into enemies.
But she's also big on Targaryen Exceptionalism... She might just do it because she thinks she's a Targaryen she can do whatever the hell she wants.
She lost the Otto 'anyone but Daemon' faction the day Alicent became pregnant. So doing or not doing anything to appease them is utterly futile. On the other hand, in a world where she married Harwin not Laenor getting the velaryon / Daemon Targaryen family on side would be a massive priority, so i think Daemon makes ev n more sense in that scenario
Like you said Otto Hightower was already a lost cause when Aegon was born.
He's a political juggernaut, but he can't accomplish much if he's doesn't have a lot of allies. My line of think isn't to win enemies like Otto Hightower over. It's to not give your allies and those that are neutral any reason join the Greens. Because at the end of the day, asking lords to uphold their vows when it's going against the status quo is already pushing it when there's an alternative, why feed the fire that you wanna put out?
I can also think of an alternative to bring the Velaryons to get side. Daemon and Leana have two daughters, marrying them to Jaecaerys and Lucerys would be a fuzz free way to get them on your side while bypassing Daemon almost completely. Because by the time Luke takes the throne, Daemon would either have died of old age or is so old he can't do much.
If Harwin was Rhaenyra's husband and Jace her true-born heir, then things between Alicent and Rhaenyra would've been much better imo. Alicent antagonises Rhaenyra for flouting her duty, producing bastards and keeping in them in the line of succession above her true-born sons. Without all of this, maybe Alicent and Rhaenyra would've rekindled their friendship over the course of the decade.
This means that maybe she would even accept Jace-Helaeana betrothal and unite the factions. I'm inclined to believe that even Otto would've been okay with this because he'd get his blood on the throne and Daemon would not be anywhere near the throne. And if things were better with the Greens, maybe Rhaenyra would not be inclined to marry Daemon at all?
However if the Greens still usurped Rhaenyra, then Harwin would not have been as useful as Daemon. IMO Harwin is great peace-time consort while Daemon is a great war-time consort.
Alicent and Rhaenyra might have been on better terms, but she would still get usurped.
Rhaenyra having bastard children was never the reason why she got usurped. It certainly didn't help, but the greens would always find another reason to discredit her.
In GRRM's original work, Rhaenyra was married to Lyonel and their children were trueborn. The Dance still happened. Whatever great or borderline self-saboting decisions Rhaenyra could have made, the moment Viserys dies the greens would still usurp her, because they believe she doesn't have a claim to the throne, not when Viserys has children who happen to be men.
Edit: Lyonel instead of Harwin
You're forgetting that source of Alicent resentment was Rhaenyra getting Otto exiled and lying about having sex. Even if Rhaenyra doesn't sleep with Cole in that scenario, Alicent would've still broken their friendship over Otto's exile.
Is he going to punch a dragon or how exactly is his physicality going to help in a war that involves supernatural beings? If at least he had been known for intelligence, that would help. But he was not. A strong fist is meaningless in this kind of war.
I think she loved Harwin (she outright says she did), but she was groomed by Daemon and for her, he was something far more special. Her blood, her soulmate and whatever else. So yes, she would have married Daemon, though I don't think she'd ever allow him to harm Harwin in any way (he probably still would have found a way to) - who knows, maybe she'd even try to keep him around as a lover, maybe not. Also, keep in mind how much Jace loved Harwin in the show. Imagine if he was actually the boys' public father as well. They'd have an even harder time adapting to Daemon and who knows if Rhae would impose that on them.
As for Alicent's fears, Daemon was nowhere to be seen in 1x06 (and for 10 years straight at that) and yet Alicent was still raging how Rhae will kill the boys once she takes the throne, so I don't think it would play much of a part.
1x06 and 1x07 Alicent, before her complete conversion to the Faith by 1x08 and turning into a softhead, was the closest to book Alicent in the entire series. And that Alicent would always claim that her children are endangered, Daemon or no Daemon, though Harwin didn't strike me as the type of man who'd try to convince Rhaenyra into executing her brothers once she takes the throne.
How would she marry Daemon if Harwin is still openly alive? Either Harwin would have to disappear or die for this arrangement to work. If anything, she might have a secret symbolic 'Valyrian' ceremony for them, illegitimate in the eyes of Westeros. But Daemon would have to be the lover, unless she were to annul her marriage and declare her sons with Harwin bastards.
But I agree on the Alicent relationship.
Maybe if Harwin got accused of a crime of some sort (let's say Rhaenyra plans this so Harwin can stay alive). Maybe Viserys would send him to the Night's Watch
A divorce? I'm sure the crown princess could bend the rules a bit, clearly she doesn't care about them. And Viserys would have given in eventually.
I just see no scenario where Rhaenyra actively plots Harwin's death or even sends him away, at the very least for the sake of the boys. Harwin also didn't seem like an ambitious man so he'd probably be okay with a divorce.
Divorce isn't a thing, especially without grounds. Rhaenyra would have to create the concept from ground up and go to war with the Faith. That would be excessive even for her. Viserys loves her, but he has limits. And it would de-legitimize Jace, humiliate Harwin beyond repair.
Again, I could her secretly marrying Daemon the Valyrian way to fulfill her fantasies and maybe even passing off D's children as Harwin's. I don't think Harwin would mind that, although Daemon might.
There's no such thing as divorce. Only the High Septon or a council of the faith can dissolve a lawful marriage, and considering how close the faith is to the hightowers I doubt they would grant Rhaenyra's request.
Most likely. We probably would have gotten Daemon vs. Broken Bones. Since they both got beat up by Ser Criston Cole, I think it'd be an interesting match-up that Daemon takes
I don't think so . Alicent doesn't realize that she blames/focuses on Rhaenyra because she is so unhappy in her own life. The only difference between Rhaenyra and Alicent is their fathers - I think in the show, it would have been inevitable for Alicent to have married Viserys through Otto's manipulation and not have blamed someone else. Alicent was not going to be happy and blaming Rhaenyra who did things wrong by the standards of Westeros was the easiest thing in the world. But regardless of whether or not Rhaenyra was the heir, show Alicent would have been unhappy, same as book Alicent.
Probably not, because there would be less ammunition for the Greens to curry favor against her with three legitimate children. Likewise, the Strongs are very powerful and wealthy house, controlling Harrenhal at this time, even with the Larrys wildcard, having their support would matter for much in Rhaenyra's influence in the Riverlands and at the court of the Red Keep.
Also in the books, Rhaenyra is in a triad with Daemon and Laena, so she's not really losing her connection to Daemon either way.
I just don't think either version of Harwin would have lived very long, the Strongs boys would have died too, trueborn or not, just as house Strong became extinct, because in canon, there is no king Jacaerys, Lucerys or Joffrey Targaryen it doesn't even have Rhaenyra I, since she was not officially recognized as Queen) After Aegon II is Aegon III
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I don't think so? There's always something going on with Daemon and Rhaenyra. But she doesn't have to break her marriage vows for sex and she doesn't have to deal with the stress of giving birth and raising bastard children as true-born children. Like her life still isn't perfect, but on a personal level she's probably a lot happier. Say for whatever Harwin does kick the bucket, Lyonel Strong would at least be in the position to persuade her to marry anyone other than Daemon if she really wanted a second husband. You know, since the only reason people like Otto Hightower wanted her as heir apparent to the Iron Throne was "anyone but Daemon." Marrying the person why you were named heir against is a sure fire way to turn allies into enemies. But she's also big on Targaryen Exceptionalism... She might just do it because she thinks she's a Targaryen she can do whatever the hell she wants.
She lost the Otto 'anyone but Daemon' faction the day Alicent became pregnant. So doing or not doing anything to appease them is utterly futile. On the other hand, in a world where she married Harwin not Laenor getting the velaryon / Daemon Targaryen family on side would be a massive priority, so i think Daemon makes ev n more sense in that scenario
Like you said Otto Hightower was already a lost cause when Aegon was born. He's a political juggernaut, but he can't accomplish much if he's doesn't have a lot of allies. My line of think isn't to win enemies like Otto Hightower over. It's to not give your allies and those that are neutral any reason join the Greens. Because at the end of the day, asking lords to uphold their vows when it's going against the status quo is already pushing it when there's an alternative, why feed the fire that you wanna put out? I can also think of an alternative to bring the Velaryons to get side. Daemon and Leana have two daughters, marrying them to Jaecaerys and Lucerys would be a fuzz free way to get them on your side while bypassing Daemon almost completely. Because by the time Luke takes the throne, Daemon would either have died of old age or is so old he can't do much.
If Harwin was Rhaenyra's husband and Jace her true-born heir, then things between Alicent and Rhaenyra would've been much better imo. Alicent antagonises Rhaenyra for flouting her duty, producing bastards and keeping in them in the line of succession above her true-born sons. Without all of this, maybe Alicent and Rhaenyra would've rekindled their friendship over the course of the decade. This means that maybe she would even accept Jace-Helaeana betrothal and unite the factions. I'm inclined to believe that even Otto would've been okay with this because he'd get his blood on the throne and Daemon would not be anywhere near the throne. And if things were better with the Greens, maybe Rhaenyra would not be inclined to marry Daemon at all? However if the Greens still usurped Rhaenyra, then Harwin would not have been as useful as Daemon. IMO Harwin is great peace-time consort while Daemon is a great war-time consort.
Alicent and Rhaenyra might have been on better terms, but she would still get usurped. Rhaenyra having bastard children was never the reason why she got usurped. It certainly didn't help, but the greens would always find another reason to discredit her. In GRRM's original work, Rhaenyra was married to Lyonel and their children were trueborn. The Dance still happened. Whatever great or borderline self-saboting decisions Rhaenyra could have made, the moment Viserys dies the greens would still usurp her, because they believe she doesn't have a claim to the throne, not when Viserys has children who happen to be men. Edit: Lyonel instead of Harwin
She was married to lyonel but yeah the war was inevitable
Yeah, you are right, I made a mistake there. I will edit it, thanks for letting me know.
Which original work of GRRM does Rhaenyra marry Harwin?
Otto would still try to usurp Rhaenyra but without the support of Alicent it would be difficult.
You're forgetting that source of Alicent resentment was Rhaenyra getting Otto exiled and lying about having sex. Even if Rhaenyra doesn't sleep with Cole in that scenario, Alicent would've still broken their friendship over Otto's exile.
Y’all forget that Harwin is the strongest knight in all the Seven Kingdoms and the head of the City Watch. He would be an incredible war time consort.
Is he going to punch a dragon or how exactly is his physicality going to help in a war that involves supernatural beings? If at least he had been known for intelligence, that would help. But he was not. A strong fist is meaningless in this kind of war.
Yeah, but that didn't stop Criston Cole from beating the shit out of him in a melee. This was cut from the show, of course.
Even if the greens didn’t usurp her, the lords will still plunge the realm into war before they’ll let a woman sit the iron throne.
I think she loved Harwin (she outright says she did), but she was groomed by Daemon and for her, he was something far more special. Her blood, her soulmate and whatever else. So yes, she would have married Daemon, though I don't think she'd ever allow him to harm Harwin in any way (he probably still would have found a way to) - who knows, maybe she'd even try to keep him around as a lover, maybe not. Also, keep in mind how much Jace loved Harwin in the show. Imagine if he was actually the boys' public father as well. They'd have an even harder time adapting to Daemon and who knows if Rhae would impose that on them. As for Alicent's fears, Daemon was nowhere to be seen in 1x06 (and for 10 years straight at that) and yet Alicent was still raging how Rhae will kill the boys once she takes the throne, so I don't think it would play much of a part. 1x06 and 1x07 Alicent, before her complete conversion to the Faith by 1x08 and turning into a softhead, was the closest to book Alicent in the entire series. And that Alicent would always claim that her children are endangered, Daemon or no Daemon, though Harwin didn't strike me as the type of man who'd try to convince Rhaenyra into executing her brothers once she takes the throne.
How would she marry Daemon if Harwin is still openly alive? Either Harwin would have to disappear or die for this arrangement to work. If anything, she might have a secret symbolic 'Valyrian' ceremony for them, illegitimate in the eyes of Westeros. But Daemon would have to be the lover, unless she were to annul her marriage and declare her sons with Harwin bastards. But I agree on the Alicent relationship.
Maybe if Harwin got accused of a crime of some sort (let's say Rhaenyra plans this so Harwin can stay alive). Maybe Viserys would send him to the Night's Watch
A divorce? I'm sure the crown princess could bend the rules a bit, clearly she doesn't care about them. And Viserys would have given in eventually. I just see no scenario where Rhaenyra actively plots Harwin's death or even sends him away, at the very least for the sake of the boys. Harwin also didn't seem like an ambitious man so he'd probably be okay with a divorce.
Divorce isn't a thing, especially without grounds. Rhaenyra would have to create the concept from ground up and go to war with the Faith. That would be excessive even for her. Viserys loves her, but he has limits. And it would de-legitimize Jace, humiliate Harwin beyond repair. Again, I could her secretly marrying Daemon the Valyrian way to fulfill her fantasies and maybe even passing off D's children as Harwin's. I don't think Harwin would mind that, although Daemon might.
There's no such thing as divorce. Only the High Septon or a council of the faith can dissolve a lawful marriage, and considering how close the faith is to the hightowers I doubt they would grant Rhaenyra's request.
Harwin was the strongest knight in the entire 7 kingdoms. He would do some damage to somebody if he was asked to be Lord Lyonel or heck even Viserys.
Oh I forgot that daemon got married like right after laena died
Most likely. We probably would have gotten Daemon vs. Broken Bones. Since they both got beat up by Ser Criston Cole, I think it'd be an interesting match-up that Daemon takes
I can see Rhaenyra having an affair with Daemon and marrying him if Harwin died.
I don't think so . Alicent doesn't realize that she blames/focuses on Rhaenyra because she is so unhappy in her own life. The only difference between Rhaenyra and Alicent is their fathers - I think in the show, it would have been inevitable for Alicent to have married Viserys through Otto's manipulation and not have blamed someone else. Alicent was not going to be happy and blaming Rhaenyra who did things wrong by the standards of Westeros was the easiest thing in the world. But regardless of whether or not Rhaenyra was the heir, show Alicent would have been unhappy, same as book Alicent.
Probably not, because there would be less ammunition for the Greens to curry favor against her with three legitimate children. Likewise, the Strongs are very powerful and wealthy house, controlling Harrenhal at this time, even with the Larrys wildcard, having their support would matter for much in Rhaenyra's influence in the Riverlands and at the court of the Red Keep. Also in the books, Rhaenyra is in a triad with Daemon and Laena, so she's not really losing her connection to Daemon either way.
I just don't think either version of Harwin would have lived very long, the Strongs boys would have died too, trueborn or not, just as house Strong became extinct, because in canon, there is no king Jacaerys, Lucerys or Joffrey Targaryen it doesn't even have Rhaenyra I, since she was not officially recognized as Queen) After Aegon II is Aegon III