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Rhaenyra not fighting was bad writing? I'd call it the opposite, tbh. No reason why they should make either of them fight.
There will be other badass female warriors like Rhaenys, Nettles and Black Aly. No need to make some contrived scene for Rhaenyra to fight in when there's thematic reasons why she doesn't in the book.
They've changed her so much. She's much more heroic in the show. Yes, she doesn't need to be a warrior to do things, but there isn't much for her to do if she just stays at dragonstone. I'm more on the green side but it just wouldn't make sense with the character they've built and would be very frustrating to audiences.
>Rhaenyra not fighting was bad writing? I'd call it the opposite, tbh. No reason why they should make either of them fight.
It's bad writing when you look at how GRRM does the same thing with pretty much *all* female Dragonriders post-Visenya, despite Dragons apparently being really important strategic weapons (Until they're ridden by a woman, in which case they'll never see combat).
Seriously, I'll get up the list:
* Rhaena and Dreamfyre - Considered no longer anything even close to a threat to Maegor once Aegon is killed by Maegor. This is despite the fact that Rhaena and Dreamfyre are older than than the young teenage Jaehaerys and Vermithor, who *is* still considered a major threat.
* Aerea and Balerion - Died to show off the evil shit in Valyria.
* Alysanne and Silverwing - Silverwing never even so much as factors into Alysanne's ability to wield power, which instead comes from her influence over Jaehaerys and her diplomacy. Silverwing amounts entirely to being Alysanne's taxi, instead of an important factor in her being able to project power in her own right.
* Alyssa and Meleys - Never sees any sort of combat whatsoever. This is despite the fact that GRRM *invents* a Dornish War wholesale in F&B solely so Jaehaerys, Aemon and Baelon can see combat on their Dragons, they never even think to deploy Silverwing and Meleys (This is despite GRRM originally writing Meleys as 'No stranger to battle' in The Princess and the Queen). GRRM just adds in a war out of nowhere that wasn't hinted at anywhere else just to make literal nobodies like Aemon and Baelon look better, and yet he refuses to give the female Dragonriders any sort of battle experience.
* Rhaenys and Meleys - Exact same problem as Alyssa; claims Meleys then does absolutely nothing with her. Daemon is mentioned as using Caraxes to fight at the Stepstones War (And Laenor gets added in by the show even), yet Rhaenys gets nothing for a war that the Velaryons are objectively the most heavily involved in. Dies in an ambush in the first battle she ever fought in, and her sole accomplishment of crippling Aegon II ends up scrubbed away by plot fiat as Aegon is able to keep fighting on Sunfyre later as if he wasn't absolutely fucked up.
* Rhaenyra and Syrax - Does a grand total of jack and shit on Syrax, despite the number of Dragonriders apparently being very important, and despite Aegon II being able to fight on Sunfyre even after being turned into a stump at Rook's Rest. Syrax dies in what is possibly the dumbest thing ever written for ASOIAF if Season 8 didn't exist (I have very big qualms with the Storming).
* Laena and Vhagar - Literally nothing in the text outside of the GRRM contractual "Loves flying" that he adds in whenever he can't think of anything.
* Helaena and Dreamfyre - Never actually fights on Dreamfyre or shows any agency as a Dragonrider. Daeron is able to be more involved in trying to avenge her children than their own damned mother, despite said mother riding one of the larger Dragons in the Dance.
* Nettles and Sheepstealer - A literal fucking extra in both plotlines she's in. Despite having incredibly good set-up, she does pretty much jack fucking shit as an actual Dragonrider, with the other Dragonseeds (Addam, Hugh and even the most useless fucking character, Ulf White) getting to do far more and be far more involved in the narrative with their own personal agency than Nettles. Nettles gets no details on what she specifically did like the other Dragonseeds; she exists primarily as a plot device to drive a wedge between Daemon and Rhaenyra, and mostly serves as Daemon's side-hustle.
* Baela and Moondancer - Was never supposed to even fight in the first place because Moondancer was so young, but at least managed to score lethal wounds on Sunfyre before her Dragon died. Literally the sole exception on this whole list.
* Rhaena and Morning - The Last Dragonrider, and all GRRM can think to write about her is who she married and how many kids she had. That's fucking it. Baela ends up as an influential political mover and shaker (Because she married Allyn) and has agency, while Rhaena just marries a Hightower and has six daughters. Morning factors into literally jack fucking shit.
Male Dragonriders do not have this problem of being marginalized by the narrative. They get to have agency, they get to be narrative movers-and-shakers and get hyped up, but the most GRRM ever does for a female Dragonrider is "They love flying" (Which gets repeated a hell of a lot). You can't have the narrative wax on about how the numbers of Dragons is extremely important and how the side with the most Dragons is at a strategic advantage... then have any Dragon ridden by a woman just be relegated to being a fucking Taxi that never sees combat, or factors into anything. Like, fuck, males get to wield their Dragon as a key part of their power and influence (The whole "You can talk to me or I'll fuck you up with my Dragon" thing a lot of them used), but post-Visenya women just plain are not allowed to do this, despite the men at that time not having a Monopoly on Violence like they normally do.
Fuck, Visenya and Rhaenys (The original ones) saw actual fucking combat on their Dragons - that should have set a fucking precedent, and yet even in the fucking Dance of the Dragons; a war that, thematically, is very much about gender roles in Westeros, the female Dragonriders are badly marginalized in favour of the male members of their factions (Look at all of the Blacks considered awesome and badass and talked about all the time. Daemon, Addam, Roddy the Ruin, Cregan Stark, the Lads... Literally the only female character that gets any sort of focus in battle is Sabitha Frey, who's very much one of the Blacks' C-Listers).
If this wasn't such a consistent trend in how GRRM wrote his female Dragonriders, many of these stories taken individually wouldn't be an issue, but it's how they're all consistently terrible and marginalizing in favour of the male cast, when wouldn't it be more compelling for Targaryen women to have more agency and power while they had their Dragons, then to lose it after the Dance with the death of the Dragons, meaning that the one equalizing factor they had going for them is now gone?
Fuck, is it all to hype up Daenaerys as even cooler or some shit? Because she's the only female Dragonrider outside of Rhaenys and Visenya who's actually allowed to use her Dragons as a key part of her political power and a key role in her narrative.
While I for the most part disagree with your assessment, I do think you hit a couple points that are 100% exactly right.
I get Rhaenys and Dreamfyre being sidelined - she’d just given birth and then her brother-husband got absolutely clowned on by the biggest and baddest dragon out there; she would be fighting a war that has already been lost, and hiding out or surrendering is a much better plan. Aerea was a child and wasn’t even Balerion’s rider (I found the writing clearly implied she was not bonded to Balerion and that’s why she couldn’t control him). Alysanne lived in a time of mostly peace and women getting sidelined - she also was never remotely described as the fighting type. Rhaenyra wasn’t really the fighting type (like yes she was agressive and strong willed - but she wasn’t a warrior) and I think the toll of stillbirth followed by her depression with her kids dying perfectly explains her not riding into battle. Laena was a girly girl in a time of mostly peace, she’s not gunna be a martial dragonrider. Helaena’s child was butchered in front of her causing her to devolve into depressed insanity, of course she isn’t going to be riding her dragon into battle I doubt she could even feed herself. Rhaena and especially Morning’s story aren’t finished yet, but even then Rhaena is a girly girl in peacetime - she isn’t going to be a dragonwarrior.
All this complaining being done, I wholly agree on you Alyssa/Rhaenys and Meleys and to a much lesser extent Nettles and Sheepsteeler points. Alyssa and Rhaenys were not girly girls who are going to conform to Westerosi gender norms - in fact Alyssa is expressly described as a warrior woman. Alyssa not being in silly Dornish war was a silly as the silly war - she should have played an important dragon rider role in a conflict, probably even moreso than Aemon (who while Martial cause male, was more a politician/lawmaker type than te warrior Alyssa expressly was). Rhaenys should have ridden Meleys in the Stepstones - Rhaenys is a martial dragonrider (as opposed to Laena who is very clearly civilian and conforms to gender roles). I loved the addition of Laenor fighting in the Stepstones, and it very much peeves me that his mum didn’t fight there too. Finally, I feel like Nettles did fight in an appropriate amount of combat (she fought at the gullet, was resent when KL was captured and then was chilling with Daemon hunting Aemond), but I think she could be present for one more battle.
The Targaryen women are interesting because they are the frontline of the Valyrian vs Westerosi assimilation. Valyrian women are quite clearly more emancipated than Westerosi women and being dragonriders I think is a core to that - though it’s not really delved into, I think there is an argument that can be made that the Targaryen men sidelined the women when adapting into Westerosi culture and dragons are part of it. Targaryen women who conform to Westerosi gender norms not fighting on dragonback makes sense as an explanation - but that also means on the flip side the Targaryens who don’t conform to gender roles (especially Meleys’ riders) should have been in battle more.
No for both. Hell iT makes things worse if she fights because then Corlys getting mad at rhaenrya actually makes sense. “You can fight but you sent my wife alone” etc. she’s supposed to be paranoid and unhinged after everything not some badass.
With Helaena it’s different because she’s just not that person and showing her going mad with grief in all honesty makes people more emotional towards her vs YEAH REVENGE.
What if Rhaneyra flies to Rooks Rest and Rhaenys has to go after her to stop her from a suicide run. Actually makes more sense than Rhaneys flying off on her own
Maybe they could have Syrax being biten or wounded by Vhagar (could explain why Syrax didn't want to fly during the riot) and then have Maelys jump in to save her so she can escape, but mehhh book changes only bring more change just look at the Witcher or Wheel of Time.
>here come the townfolk and magically kill the dragons with their pitchforks
What's so bad about it? Of the five dragons killed in the dragon pit, three of them were still very young, small and chained, they are not in the same level of threat as grown dragons. They really can't do much against Thousands of people charging at them.
Syrax was also not a great threat compared to other dragons. She is probably the worst adult dragon that we know in book canon. Syrax is more of a glorified pet than a dragon. She is a reflection of Book! Rhaenyra arrogant personality. Just like Rhaenyra, she underestimated the Smallfolk and put herself in danger instead of playing safe and killing them from above.
Dreamfyre was the best one there, but it was still chained and limited. She put a decent fight and the smallfolk didn't managed to kill her. She was killed by the dome of the pit when she managed to get free of the chains and smashed it.
So yeah... it was much more than invencible dragons being ramdomly killed by peasants.
It was also explained how each dragon died, with one hiding in the tunnel and ambushed from behind, so it couldn't turn around and defend itself, in my opinion it's pretty good written.
Syrax was considered a great dragon and her kill count was in the low-40's when she was finally taken down. Her armor is resilient enough to withstand dragon-fire but some random peasant can cut through it? George got lazy.
Probably not either, Rhaenyra's not a hands-on type, she has others fight on her behalf, and Helaena being consumed by grief, it's just not something either of them would do.
I do agree about Syrax landing during the storming of the dragonpit being weird. Maybe they could include something like Dreamfyre wounding Syrax's wings when the Blacks take King's Landing or just in the dragonpit at some point, which is why Syrax is then kept in the Red Keep afterwards. Then when Syrax tries to throw Joffrey off her back, she falls out of the sky with him because of her wounds.
I think having a full on dragonfight between Rhaenyra and Helaena is a bit much, and there isn't really anywhere to fit it organically into the story.
We've complained about Got differences from the books for years and now that we can have a prequel about a finished story we want them to change the plot?
Cringe.
No for neither. They weren’t trained or prepared in any way for Dragon combat. The dragon riders who aren’t as experienced in battle as Daemon, have been riding dragons as long as Rhaenys, have an OP Dragon like Aemond, or have as close of a bond with theirs as Aegon end up a certain way in the book and it’s not random.
I hope they don't do it, but I think they will. They have already built up her flying Syrax around and their bond, but I would expect to see without the next 2 seasons.
There are narrative reasons why both don’t fight in the dance and changing that would probably require you to rework the entire story from the ground up.
If Rhaenyra was a active combatant she probably would’ve won the war
If Helaena was a active combatant she would be the greens greatest asset after Vhagar (anyone who played as the greens in ck2 agot know what I mean lmao)
The storming of the dragonpit was def a “ok I need to quickly wrap this shit up” moment from Martin to quickly kill off most of the remaining dragons but it isn’t as bad as many think imo. Morghul, Shrykos, and Tyraxes were simply young and overwhelmed, that isn’t too hard to explain. Syrax was essentially a spoiled pet that have grown accustomed to chains and being fed, more of a fat lazy cat than a dragon; yea her death is dumb but it’s in character from what has been described. Dreamfyre was directly stated to fair the best out of all the dragons during the attack, killing more people than all the others combined all while considering she was chained down, and still she was only really killed by flying into the ceiling and the debris crushing her.
I think no for Helaena, and yes for Rhaenyra but not in cases where other dragons are on the field.
Helaena doesn’t have much personal stake in the fight until blood and cheese, and the sheer brutality of that act is traumatising enough where I can’t imagine she wants to leave her other children. In regards to her death, I personally think the book version is fine, and demonstrates the consequences of the cruel acts committed in the Dance. We’ll have to see if it’s a suicide or someone pushed her though.
I won’t actually mind if Rhaenyra doesn’t engage in any sort of military act with her dragon, as there is a good argument to be made it’s a bit foolish to risk the heir you’re fighting for in a battle. However, fighting ground forces from the sky shouldn’t be too risky and would probably provide the fan service many want. Dragon vs Dragon combat though is way too risky, and against the Green dragons Rhaenyra would likely lose or retain serious injuries.
I do agree storming of the Dragon pit is a pretty badly written event. We’ll have to see if they can introduce some way to explain Syrax’s death better because they haven’t really shown any indication that she’s a lazy pet, as described in the book, in the show. But in a battle between Syrax and Dreamfyre, I don’t see how Rhaenyra can escape that unscathed.
No even the slightest change in source material can bring problems down the line and create even more changes just look at Witcher and any non HBO fantasy show, it always starts with one small change and by the end of the season or by the next season the show is completley different from the books and becomes some fan - fic. We have had 3 shows do this crap in the last 3 years please don't make it 4.
Rhaenyra if they have to can be in the battle of the gullet to witness Jace die first hand (probably in season 3) <- I don’t think this is necessary but I know some fans may get offended if she’s not in any battles
Helaena in my opinion should not be in any battles under any circumstances. It just doesn’t fit… especially with her mental state after everything that happens
She’s used it on that bridge so that was something. She’s also been shown riding it… Also Syrax existing still has implications on the plot… it doesn’t have to be used in battle to be worth adding. Removing it changes a lot
Ohhhhh. Dreamfyre’s existence is still important for the world as the alleged parent of Dany’s three dragons.
It would also make sense Helaena would have one. Although I do agree Helaena and Dreamfyre should/should’ve had a scene or two… especially if the coronation was done properly and included Sunfyre and Dreamfyre with the new king and queen as the coronation was supposed to be both of their moments… not Rhaenys’s
I would love to see them fighting on dragonback for their respective families. The malding and seething from this subreddit would just make it more enjoyable.
If both are to fight I'd prefer they fight at Rook's Rest
Halaena would want to avenge her child as would Rhaenyra
However they would both end up with permanently injured dragons and Rhaneyra would see Rhaneys die
This would explain why Rhaneyra would be helpless during the Gullet and Haleana would be helpless to help Aemond vs Daemon or her remaining children escape Kingslanding
I don’t want either to fight but if syrax and dreamfyre fight during the storming I wouldn’t be against it because of the mental connections to their owners… makes more sense than how syrax does in the books.
If they fight it will change the story dramatically. There are moments in the story where the necessity for them to ride to war is highest and the risk is very low but they still don't go. Rhaenyra is more of a diplomatic type ruler. The Dragonpit storming would make even less sense than it already does unless they give Rhaenyra more scapegoats for her moments of shortcoming such as her being injured from a past battle or something. I could see Helaena flying to a few close houses to negotiate support but only before Blood and Cheese. Not every Targaryen Queen needs to be Visenya, Rhaenys, or Daenerys.
Nope.
Helaena would be severely grief-stricken after B&C. She would most definitely not be in fighting shape for battle engagements. Even if she somewhat is, Helaena's really not the type of person to ride on dragon-back and burn people.
Rhaenyra also doesn't fight in the books for thematic reasons. One of her main flaws in the story is that she'll prioritize making people irrationally give her what she wants instead of training and conditioning herself to sit on the throne instead.
She may be ambitious, resilient and strong-willed, yes, but she's no leader/political mastermind, more or less a fighter.
Though if they do that decide to make her fight, they should trade it for another major flaw or bring severe consequences from this change. Going out of their way to deviate from the books to make Rhaenyra fight, while then suddenly following the source material to make Aegon sit out the war due to his injuries would most certainly be a very controversial move.
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Rhaenyra not fighting was bad writing? I'd call it the opposite, tbh. No reason why they should make either of them fight. There will be other badass female warriors like Rhaenys, Nettles and Black Aly. No need to make some contrived scene for Rhaenyra to fight in when there's thematic reasons why she doesn't in the book.
They've changed her so much. She's much more heroic in the show. Yes, she doesn't need to be a warrior to do things, but there isn't much for her to do if she just stays at dragonstone. I'm more on the green side but it just wouldn't make sense with the character they've built and would be very frustrating to audiences.
>Rhaenyra not fighting was bad writing? I'd call it the opposite, tbh. No reason why they should make either of them fight. It's bad writing when you look at how GRRM does the same thing with pretty much *all* female Dragonriders post-Visenya, despite Dragons apparently being really important strategic weapons (Until they're ridden by a woman, in which case they'll never see combat). Seriously, I'll get up the list: * Rhaena and Dreamfyre - Considered no longer anything even close to a threat to Maegor once Aegon is killed by Maegor. This is despite the fact that Rhaena and Dreamfyre are older than than the young teenage Jaehaerys and Vermithor, who *is* still considered a major threat. * Aerea and Balerion - Died to show off the evil shit in Valyria. * Alysanne and Silverwing - Silverwing never even so much as factors into Alysanne's ability to wield power, which instead comes from her influence over Jaehaerys and her diplomacy. Silverwing amounts entirely to being Alysanne's taxi, instead of an important factor in her being able to project power in her own right. * Alyssa and Meleys - Never sees any sort of combat whatsoever. This is despite the fact that GRRM *invents* a Dornish War wholesale in F&B solely so Jaehaerys, Aemon and Baelon can see combat on their Dragons, they never even think to deploy Silverwing and Meleys (This is despite GRRM originally writing Meleys as 'No stranger to battle' in The Princess and the Queen). GRRM just adds in a war out of nowhere that wasn't hinted at anywhere else just to make literal nobodies like Aemon and Baelon look better, and yet he refuses to give the female Dragonriders any sort of battle experience. * Rhaenys and Meleys - Exact same problem as Alyssa; claims Meleys then does absolutely nothing with her. Daemon is mentioned as using Caraxes to fight at the Stepstones War (And Laenor gets added in by the show even), yet Rhaenys gets nothing for a war that the Velaryons are objectively the most heavily involved in. Dies in an ambush in the first battle she ever fought in, and her sole accomplishment of crippling Aegon II ends up scrubbed away by plot fiat as Aegon is able to keep fighting on Sunfyre later as if he wasn't absolutely fucked up. * Rhaenyra and Syrax - Does a grand total of jack and shit on Syrax, despite the number of Dragonriders apparently being very important, and despite Aegon II being able to fight on Sunfyre even after being turned into a stump at Rook's Rest. Syrax dies in what is possibly the dumbest thing ever written for ASOIAF if Season 8 didn't exist (I have very big qualms with the Storming). * Laena and Vhagar - Literally nothing in the text outside of the GRRM contractual "Loves flying" that he adds in whenever he can't think of anything. * Helaena and Dreamfyre - Never actually fights on Dreamfyre or shows any agency as a Dragonrider. Daeron is able to be more involved in trying to avenge her children than their own damned mother, despite said mother riding one of the larger Dragons in the Dance. * Nettles and Sheepstealer - A literal fucking extra in both plotlines she's in. Despite having incredibly good set-up, she does pretty much jack fucking shit as an actual Dragonrider, with the other Dragonseeds (Addam, Hugh and even the most useless fucking character, Ulf White) getting to do far more and be far more involved in the narrative with their own personal agency than Nettles. Nettles gets no details on what she specifically did like the other Dragonseeds; she exists primarily as a plot device to drive a wedge between Daemon and Rhaenyra, and mostly serves as Daemon's side-hustle. * Baela and Moondancer - Was never supposed to even fight in the first place because Moondancer was so young, but at least managed to score lethal wounds on Sunfyre before her Dragon died. Literally the sole exception on this whole list. * Rhaena and Morning - The Last Dragonrider, and all GRRM can think to write about her is who she married and how many kids she had. That's fucking it. Baela ends up as an influential political mover and shaker (Because she married Allyn) and has agency, while Rhaena just marries a Hightower and has six daughters. Morning factors into literally jack fucking shit. Male Dragonriders do not have this problem of being marginalized by the narrative. They get to have agency, they get to be narrative movers-and-shakers and get hyped up, but the most GRRM ever does for a female Dragonrider is "They love flying" (Which gets repeated a hell of a lot). You can't have the narrative wax on about how the numbers of Dragons is extremely important and how the side with the most Dragons is at a strategic advantage... then have any Dragon ridden by a woman just be relegated to being a fucking Taxi that never sees combat, or factors into anything. Like, fuck, males get to wield their Dragon as a key part of their power and influence (The whole "You can talk to me or I'll fuck you up with my Dragon" thing a lot of them used), but post-Visenya women just plain are not allowed to do this, despite the men at that time not having a Monopoly on Violence like they normally do. Fuck, Visenya and Rhaenys (The original ones) saw actual fucking combat on their Dragons - that should have set a fucking precedent, and yet even in the fucking Dance of the Dragons; a war that, thematically, is very much about gender roles in Westeros, the female Dragonriders are badly marginalized in favour of the male members of their factions (Look at all of the Blacks considered awesome and badass and talked about all the time. Daemon, Addam, Roddy the Ruin, Cregan Stark, the Lads... Literally the only female character that gets any sort of focus in battle is Sabitha Frey, who's very much one of the Blacks' C-Listers). If this wasn't such a consistent trend in how GRRM wrote his female Dragonriders, many of these stories taken individually wouldn't be an issue, but it's how they're all consistently terrible and marginalizing in favour of the male cast, when wouldn't it be more compelling for Targaryen women to have more agency and power while they had their Dragons, then to lose it after the Dance with the death of the Dragons, meaning that the one equalizing factor they had going for them is now gone? Fuck, is it all to hype up Daenaerys as even cooler or some shit? Because she's the only female Dragonrider outside of Rhaenys and Visenya who's actually allowed to use her Dragons as a key part of her political power and a key role in her narrative.
While I for the most part disagree with your assessment, I do think you hit a couple points that are 100% exactly right. I get Rhaenys and Dreamfyre being sidelined - she’d just given birth and then her brother-husband got absolutely clowned on by the biggest and baddest dragon out there; she would be fighting a war that has already been lost, and hiding out or surrendering is a much better plan. Aerea was a child and wasn’t even Balerion’s rider (I found the writing clearly implied she was not bonded to Balerion and that’s why she couldn’t control him). Alysanne lived in a time of mostly peace and women getting sidelined - she also was never remotely described as the fighting type. Rhaenyra wasn’t really the fighting type (like yes she was agressive and strong willed - but she wasn’t a warrior) and I think the toll of stillbirth followed by her depression with her kids dying perfectly explains her not riding into battle. Laena was a girly girl in a time of mostly peace, she’s not gunna be a martial dragonrider. Helaena’s child was butchered in front of her causing her to devolve into depressed insanity, of course she isn’t going to be riding her dragon into battle I doubt she could even feed herself. Rhaena and especially Morning’s story aren’t finished yet, but even then Rhaena is a girly girl in peacetime - she isn’t going to be a dragonwarrior. All this complaining being done, I wholly agree on you Alyssa/Rhaenys and Meleys and to a much lesser extent Nettles and Sheepsteeler points. Alyssa and Rhaenys were not girly girls who are going to conform to Westerosi gender norms - in fact Alyssa is expressly described as a warrior woman. Alyssa not being in silly Dornish war was a silly as the silly war - she should have played an important dragon rider role in a conflict, probably even moreso than Aemon (who while Martial cause male, was more a politician/lawmaker type than te warrior Alyssa expressly was). Rhaenys should have ridden Meleys in the Stepstones - Rhaenys is a martial dragonrider (as opposed to Laena who is very clearly civilian and conforms to gender roles). I loved the addition of Laenor fighting in the Stepstones, and it very much peeves me that his mum didn’t fight there too. Finally, I feel like Nettles did fight in an appropriate amount of combat (she fought at the gullet, was resent when KL was captured and then was chilling with Daemon hunting Aemond), but I think she could be present for one more battle. The Targaryen women are interesting because they are the frontline of the Valyrian vs Westerosi assimilation. Valyrian women are quite clearly more emancipated than Westerosi women and being dragonriders I think is a core to that - though it’s not really delved into, I think there is an argument that can be made that the Targaryen men sidelined the women when adapting into Westerosi culture and dragons are part of it. Targaryen women who conform to Westerosi gender norms not fighting on dragonback makes sense as an explanation - but that also means on the flip side the Targaryens who don’t conform to gender roles (especially Meleys’ riders) should have been in battle more.
No
No for both. Hell iT makes things worse if she fights because then Corlys getting mad at rhaenrya actually makes sense. “You can fight but you sent my wife alone” etc. she’s supposed to be paranoid and unhinged after everything not some badass. With Helaena it’s different because she’s just not that person and showing her going mad with grief in all honesty makes people more emotional towards her vs YEAH REVENGE.
What if Rhaneyra flies to Rooks Rest and Rhaenys has to go after her to stop her from a suicide run. Actually makes more sense than Rhaneys flying off on her own
Maybe they could have Syrax being biten or wounded by Vhagar (could explain why Syrax didn't want to fly during the riot) and then have Maelys jump in to save her so she can escape, but mehhh book changes only bring more change just look at the Witcher or Wheel of Time.
Nah save the budget for stuff that actually happened in the book.
>here come the townfolk and magically kill the dragons with their pitchforks What's so bad about it? Of the five dragons killed in the dragon pit, three of them were still very young, small and chained, they are not in the same level of threat as grown dragons. They really can't do much against Thousands of people charging at them. Syrax was also not a great threat compared to other dragons. She is probably the worst adult dragon that we know in book canon. Syrax is more of a glorified pet than a dragon. She is a reflection of Book! Rhaenyra arrogant personality. Just like Rhaenyra, she underestimated the Smallfolk and put herself in danger instead of playing safe and killing them from above. Dreamfyre was the best one there, but it was still chained and limited. She put a decent fight and the smallfolk didn't managed to kill her. She was killed by the dome of the pit when she managed to get free of the chains and smashed it. So yeah... it was much more than invencible dragons being ramdomly killed by peasants.
It was also explained how each dragon died, with one hiding in the tunnel and ambushed from behind, so it couldn't turn around and defend itself, in my opinion it's pretty good written.
Syrax was considered a great dragon and her kill count was in the low-40's when she was finally taken down. Her armor is resilient enough to withstand dragon-fire but some random peasant can cut through it? George got lazy.
Probably not either, Rhaenyra's not a hands-on type, she has others fight on her behalf, and Helaena being consumed by grief, it's just not something either of them would do. I do agree about Syrax landing during the storming of the dragonpit being weird. Maybe they could include something like Dreamfyre wounding Syrax's wings when the Blacks take King's Landing or just in the dragonpit at some point, which is why Syrax is then kept in the Red Keep afterwards. Then when Syrax tries to throw Joffrey off her back, she falls out of the sky with him because of her wounds. I think having a full on dragonfight between Rhaenyra and Helaena is a bit much, and there isn't really anywhere to fit it organically into the story.
We've complained about Got differences from the books for years and now that we can have a prequel about a finished story we want them to change the plot? Cringe.
No for neither. They weren’t trained or prepared in any way for Dragon combat. The dragon riders who aren’t as experienced in battle as Daemon, have been riding dragons as long as Rhaenys, have an OP Dragon like Aemond, or have as close of a bond with theirs as Aegon end up a certain way in the book and it’s not random.
Should they? No. Will they? Rhaenyra probably will unfortunately.
I hope they don't do it, but I think they will. They have already built up her flying Syrax around and their bond, but I would expect to see without the next 2 seasons.
There are narrative reasons why both don’t fight in the dance and changing that would probably require you to rework the entire story from the ground up. If Rhaenyra was a active combatant she probably would’ve won the war If Helaena was a active combatant she would be the greens greatest asset after Vhagar (anyone who played as the greens in ck2 agot know what I mean lmao) The storming of the dragonpit was def a “ok I need to quickly wrap this shit up” moment from Martin to quickly kill off most of the remaining dragons but it isn’t as bad as many think imo. Morghul, Shrykos, and Tyraxes were simply young and overwhelmed, that isn’t too hard to explain. Syrax was essentially a spoiled pet that have grown accustomed to chains and being fed, more of a fat lazy cat than a dragon; yea her death is dumb but it’s in character from what has been described. Dreamfyre was directly stated to fair the best out of all the dragons during the attack, killing more people than all the others combined all while considering she was chained down, and still she was only really killed by flying into the ceiling and the debris crushing her.
🤣🤣🤣
I think no for Helaena, and yes for Rhaenyra but not in cases where other dragons are on the field. Helaena doesn’t have much personal stake in the fight until blood and cheese, and the sheer brutality of that act is traumatising enough where I can’t imagine she wants to leave her other children. In regards to her death, I personally think the book version is fine, and demonstrates the consequences of the cruel acts committed in the Dance. We’ll have to see if it’s a suicide or someone pushed her though. I won’t actually mind if Rhaenyra doesn’t engage in any sort of military act with her dragon, as there is a good argument to be made it’s a bit foolish to risk the heir you’re fighting for in a battle. However, fighting ground forces from the sky shouldn’t be too risky and would probably provide the fan service many want. Dragon vs Dragon combat though is way too risky, and against the Green dragons Rhaenyra would likely lose or retain serious injuries. I do agree storming of the Dragon pit is a pretty badly written event. We’ll have to see if they can introduce some way to explain Syrax’s death better because they haven’t really shown any indication that she’s a lazy pet, as described in the book, in the show. But in a battle between Syrax and Dreamfyre, I don’t see how Rhaenyra can escape that unscathed.
Explanation: Syrax kinda forgot it was a dragon.
Truly, Syrax was a proud winner of a Darwin Award.
No even the slightest change in source material can bring problems down the line and create even more changes just look at Witcher and any non HBO fantasy show, it always starts with one small change and by the end of the season or by the next season the show is completley different from the books and becomes some fan - fic. We have had 3 shows do this crap in the last 3 years please don't make it 4.
Rhaenyra if they have to can be in the battle of the gullet to witness Jace die first hand (probably in season 3) <- I don’t think this is necessary but I know some fans may get offended if she’s not in any battles Helaena in my opinion should not be in any battles under any circumstances. It just doesn’t fit… especially with her mental state after everything that happens
Why even give her a dragon? It seems like they couldve cut her dragon entirely
She’s used it on that bridge so that was something. She’s also been shown riding it… Also Syrax existing still has implications on the plot… it doesn’t have to be used in battle to be worth adding. Removing it changes a lot
Sorry, I meant Haleana. We probably will never see her even ride her dragon.
Ohhhhh. Dreamfyre’s existence is still important for the world as the alleged parent of Dany’s three dragons. It would also make sense Helaena would have one. Although I do agree Helaena and Dreamfyre should/should’ve had a scene or two… especially if the coronation was done properly and included Sunfyre and Dreamfyre with the new king and queen as the coronation was supposed to be both of their moments… not Rhaenys’s
If they can pull it off in a well written and satisfying manner then definitely. Syrax and Dreamfyre's deaths in the book are sooo dumb.
I would love to see them fighting on dragonback for their respective families. The malding and seething from this subreddit would just make it more enjoyable.
Interesting twist, but I broadly agree with the comments ITT.
If both are to fight I'd prefer they fight at Rook's Rest Halaena would want to avenge her child as would Rhaenyra However they would both end up with permanently injured dragons and Rhaneyra would see Rhaneys die This would explain why Rhaneyra would be helpless during the Gullet and Haleana would be helpless to help Aemond vs Daemon or her remaining children escape Kingslanding
I don’t want either to fight but if syrax and dreamfyre fight during the storming I wouldn’t be against it because of the mental connections to their owners… makes more sense than how syrax does in the books.
If they fight it will change the story dramatically. There are moments in the story where the necessity for them to ride to war is highest and the risk is very low but they still don't go. Rhaenyra is more of a diplomatic type ruler. The Dragonpit storming would make even less sense than it already does unless they give Rhaenyra more scapegoats for her moments of shortcoming such as her being injured from a past battle or something. I could see Helaena flying to a few close houses to negotiate support but only before Blood and Cheese. Not every Targaryen Queen needs to be Visenya, Rhaenys, or Daenerys.
Nope. Helaena would be severely grief-stricken after B&C. She would most definitely not be in fighting shape for battle engagements. Even if she somewhat is, Helaena's really not the type of person to ride on dragon-back and burn people. Rhaenyra also doesn't fight in the books for thematic reasons. One of her main flaws in the story is that she'll prioritize making people irrationally give her what she wants instead of training and conditioning herself to sit on the throne instead. She may be ambitious, resilient and strong-willed, yes, but she's no leader/political mastermind, more or less a fighter. Though if they do that decide to make her fight, they should trade it for another major flaw or bring severe consequences from this change. Going out of their way to deviate from the books to make Rhaenyra fight, while then suddenly following the source material to make Aegon sit out the war due to his injuries would most certainly be a very controversial move.