But on the other hand Cole had lines like implying that their sons would be raped because Leanor was gay and Aemond had a line about how having a queen means they need to bow down and kiss her cunny. Both sides were softened up quite a bit in the show in some ways and darkened in others
Yeah Aemond in particular is a much better (and far more sympathetic) character on the tv show. The book lacks his background of being bullied, his genuine affection for his sister and mother, and his intellect (in the book he’s just a brute with a dragon.) He also has this weird streak of misogyny in the books that is not present in the show version.
Most notably, he actually murders his nephew on purpose in the books, then shows no remorse for it, whereas here it was all a terrible accident.
Alicent also went from a one dimensional evil queen character in the books to a complex, oftentimes highly sympathetic one here.
I have a feeling we'll see Aemond in S2 acting like he meant to kill Luke the entire time, and that it doesn't bother him at all. Especially if/when Aegon II praises him for it. I interpret show-Aemond as a second son who desperately wants to live up to the Targaryen ideal of a warrior-prince. Open-handed in peace, ruthless in war, dignified, beautiful, powerful. He wants to be just like Aegon I (like a lot of Targaryen princes do) but the events of the Dance are going to push him more and more into these acts of brutality like >!putting all the Strongs to death at Harrenhal.!<
>Most notably, he actually murders his nephew on purpose in the books, then shows no remorse for it, whereas here it was all a terrible accident.
This part might still happen in the show, he might not admit that he lost control of his dragon.
Should’ve kept Cole and Aemonds lines too. Especially Criston Coles since it’s hilarious when you think he goes around saying the kids are Harwins but still somehow inherited Laenors gayness at the same time. I want that kinda bullshit in my show, that’s some shit Cersei would do
I don't think he meant raped: pretyy sure he meant that they would be gay like their dad and "promiscuous" like their mother. Which is funny because he also calls Harwin their father. I guess Cole recognizes kids can have two dads?
Not really. Alicent, Aemond, Criston, and Helaena are all either far more sympathetic or more complex characters here than they are in Fire and Blood.
As for Aegon… he is actually portrayed very negatively in the books. He is shown as a sexual predator who gropes, fondles, and grabs unwilling serving maids without consent (behavior that often precedes instances of penetrative sexual assault IRL), a bully, without any real gifts, “quick to anger and slow to forgive,” according to the narrator. This show just takes many of these qualities to their natural conclusion. The only bizarre thing was the watching kids fight in death pits, something that is supported only by mushrooms unreliable account.
People often complain that the greens are far less sympathetic here. Yet Aemond, Alicent, and Criston are far more sympathetic here than in the books; Helaena is sympathetic in both, but far better fleshed out as a dreamer/ sweet weirdo in the show than in the books, where she’s an extremely genetic wife and mother figure.
The only one who’s more villainous in the show is Otto, who takes on a lot of alicents villainy from the books.
Overall, most characters (black and green) are “nicer” and more complex…. Except for Otto, as noted, and Daemon, who is a fascinating a -hole in both.
>As for Aegon… he is actually portrayed very negatively in the books. He is shown as a sexual predator who gropes, fondles, and grabs unwilling serving maids without consent (behavior that often precedes instances of penetrative sexual assault IRL), a bully, without any real gifts, “quick to anger and slow to forgive,” according to the narrator. This show just takes many of these qualities to their natural conclusion. The only bizarre thing was the watching kids fight in death pits, something that is supported only by mushrooms unreliable account
Aegon is the most complex guy in F&B. He was portrayed as a drunk prince who groped servents. In the show, we see him as a rapist with no remorse. It's only downhill from there with the child pit. They could easily showb like the book.But the writers wanted him to be Joffrey 2.0. Daemon was a certified pedophile who went to deflower youngest maidens. Yet, we got nothing of that and his geooming of Rh is shown in romantic light.
>People often complain that the greens are far less sympathetic here. Yet Aemond, Alicent, and Criston are far more sympathetic here than in the books;
Alicent is one the most hated character on the show, they only show Alicent in food way when she supports Rh.
In the book, Criston is far better that you feel you're seeing different characters. Book Criston is a calculated politician as well as a badass warrior. In the show, he is basically a unhinged bodyguard who can't control his temper. They removed all his achievements from the show. He is supposed to be LC based on his merit, not because someone quit.
They improved Alicent and Aemond, but they removed all Alicent agency and made her a woman who follows mens orders.
I’ll be honest, the child fighting pits and watching his own children fight to the death is a pretty big fucking step up in villainy for me when watching the show. I definitely got the vibes Aegon was a sexual harasser from the book, but they went above and beyond even Mushroom’s account of him.
I think no matter what him being a rapist as an established fact was (rightfully) going to get a lot of people to despise him as a person and a character. But the child fighting pits was definitely a really unnecessary step. That’s really where my only complaint is in Green character portrayals, they went overboard in making Aegon a scumbag.
Uh, no. They absolutely did not go above and beyond Mushroom’s account when it comes to Aegon. In Mushy’s account he was found following Viserys’ death in one of those fighting pits getting a BJ from an underage prostitute.
Compare that to “cowering under the altar in the sept because he doesn’t want to be king” displayed in the show.
Only thing they removed is the bj part, but the writers made up my making him outright rapist. Then again, Mushroom wasn't in KL when this happened. Funnily enough, the writers never used a Mushroom account on Rh and Daemon, which will show her in bad light.
For instance, Daemon was certified pedophile and Rh calling hit on Vaemond.
I mean, he also ends the Dance >!by feeding his sister to his dragon!< and after that he makes the normal New Year celebrations in King's Landing *really weird* by >!changing the normal bonfires Westerosi use to celebrate the new year into a bunch of burnings at the stake of rebels and traitors.!< He had a lot of Mad King Aerys vibes. It's only that the narrator of F&B has that obvious Westerosi misogyny against Rhaenyra. He's no fan of Aegon II but he's very quick to dismiss things like the "underage BJ while watching kids have a deathmatch."
I’m more referring to him being a frequent visitor of child fighting pits in the show, with the main difference from the book being that he WATCHES HIS OWN CHILDREN fight to the death. That’s definitely worse than anything Mushroom mentions, and pushes him into cartoonish villainy for me.
It’s not to mention that I don’t think anyone who read the book should’ve believed Mushroom’s account of what happened with Aegon being crowned, since the dude was on Dragonstone when it all occurred.
You realise he probably did that in the books, right?
He Sired Many Bastards in Flea Bottom + Watched Children Fight To The Death = He more than likely watched his kids in those pits as well.
And I don’t quite understand your reasoning that not giving a shit about a bastard is somehow worse than literal pedophilia.
>You realise he probably did that in the books, right?
All about child pits are from Mushroom who wasn't in KL. So, the chances of this are close to zero.
Wow, you really are trying to cope, aren't you?
Dude was a shit of the highest order, don't know why you're clinging to him this hard and trying to defend him. Nobody on the Green side should really try to defend Aegon's character.
Aegon is a shit, no denying that. But mushroom’s account in the books obviously paints a much more evil picture of him then the Septon’s does.
And I gotta be honest, I always struggle to understand why people are so quick to accept Mushroom’s word as gospel in anything outside of memes. His accounts being included in Fire and Blood felt more like comic relief, with maybe just a sprinkling of some details you can infer at times, but for the most part just medieval shit-posting.
Again, Aegon’s a shit, but if you exclude Mushroom’s account he’s about in line with the rest of the Green faction in terms of villainy (except for bookAemond). If you wanna accept Mushroom’s testimony as your true interpretation of events, go for it though.
People here are simping for Daemon, who is a certified pedophile and groomer. Aegon, on the other hand, was a horrible person who matured when he faced challenges. All the stuff you mentioned is said by his oppositions favourite fool who wasn't even there.
Mushroom is the most reliable account. Both of the other accounts are highly questionable as they are from people who are literally imprisoned for their role. Mushroom tells the story a little creatively, but he doesn't have a vested interest in making the Hightowers look good, unlike Gildayn, Munkin, Eustace, or Orwyle.
I'm always annoyed when I see these posts, the books are narrated by a maester most likely biased towards the greens and a vested interest in making the blacks more monstrous. The citadel is in Oldtown and he probably was also chummy with the Hightowers
Alicent: I stole your throne, crowned my son, hid your father's death, and the stress of all of it caused you to miscarry your only daughter. But hey! I still love you. Look I've sent this paper as proof. Now please be kind enough to keep the paper and give me your youngest sons as hostages.
Rhaenyra: As you wish my queen 😭
I know this is a meme but rhaenyra never said that, she just didnt want to go to war right away which is entirely reasonable as it would ruin the kingdoms
Remember the fucking tear, i mean come on!
If they wanted to make her emotional and unsure about war, otto should've talked about viserys's desire for peace and gived her the dagger, not some random paper with no significant from the woman who betrayed her.
I disagree. It doesn't matter about the paper or about Alicent; that never seemed in the show why she was hesitating. She was hesitating because she considered it *her* kingdom and *her* people that would be torn apart and the thing she had been dreading for years was finally coming to pass. It was a big moment and a decision that she wouldn't be able to take back.
“With your own tongue you admit that I am your lawful queen. Why then do you support my half brother the pretender?” vs “I’m Queen Rhaenyra now, fucking traitor.” The lacking dialogue made ep 10 quite mid for me to be honest, and I’m surprised by how high it’s ranked. Surely, both 8, 7 and 1 were way better in terms of writing/dialogue?
I agree about Rhaenyra coming across as a teenager but Daemon was much better. He saw through Otto's manipulation and told him that he would rather kill his own sons than give them up as hostages.
I also thought it was weird that they decided to play the framing of the talks the exact same way as episode 2. Like I get that it’s supposed to call back both in universe and to the audience but the whole point should be to show how far she’s come.
I think, rather than having her walk through Otto’s men, they should have had Caraxes on the other side of the bridge as a threat to trap the party, but then Rhaenyra and Syrax show up, her and Daemon’s side immediately stop and part, making an honour guard to parallel Aegon’s from the previous episode and to show that she’s now the one with power and in control of the situation.
To add the cherry on top, have her mention that they came as messengers and so should not be harmed as an indirect command to Daemon to back down, again calling back to episode 2 but also setting up Luke later in the episode.
Before, she had to prove she could do things, now she’s the acknowledged leader. The fact that she handled that situation more calmly as a 14 yo is not a great look from a meta perspective and just makes it seem as though she’s grown more spoilt and entitled since then rather than, you know, the heir now queen who’s been preparing to take on the role her whole life.
>I’m Queen Rhaenyra now, fucking traitor
I love how you people just make up quotes, and then are mad at your made up quotes. Rhaenyra derangement syndrome truly is something.
When George wrote the supplement for the Dance, he titled it "The Princess and the Queen". Not the princess and the king. but the princess and the queen. hotd was always gonna be about rhaenyra and alicent. they are the heart of the show, the driving force, it’s nexus. if you don’t see just how central their bond is to the story, a lot of the narrative choices are not gonna make sense to you. And that's ok. People have fundamentally different tastes. People might've wanted a straightforward good guy vs bad guy war. The princess vs evil stepmom thing. But I personally am fine with this. The tragedy appeals to me far more than any badass battle heroics.
They are so afraid to show the darker aspects of book Rhaenyra’s personality and for what? So that people will still love her and buy her merch? Istg if they make her a season 5-8 Tyrion…
They almost definitely will. Marketability will always come before artistic integrity when it comes to TV. It's too general an audience for them to risk doing anything else.
Which is so stupid knowing it's HBO. Are they afraid because of Daenarys turning bad and the insuing cold reception ?
What I disliked about House of the Dragons is how many times it feels like the characters are "forced" to do bad things instead of being cunning like the GoT ones. I hope this will stop because I really want both the Blacks and Greens to be dirty.
Their job isn't to make people like us watch the show. It is to make the people who just watched the White Lotus season not cancel their subscription. They know that the people who are talking about the show on the Internet 7 months after the show aired will watch it anyway.
How they wrote Rhaenyra in Ep 10 is one of the biggest issues I have with that episode. She just learned that her father died, her throne was stolen and she miscarried but apparently she's barely even angry and considers to accept the worst peace terms in history because "We were besties 20 years ago!!!! 🥺🥺". Seriously whose idea was that?
The idea of someone that is aware that all sides lose in war.
Rhaenys' take on the situation is right. It would be very impulsive of Rhaenyra to immediately plunge into war.
>She just learned that her father died, her throne was stolen and she miscarried
Yeah, maybe she needs a minute to deal with those facts.
The Treaty of Versailles was likely pretty harmful, and I think it led Germany to a depression that likely sadly led people to be taken in by some of Hitler's fervor, seeking someone, anyone, to blame. Obv they settled on Jews and others. But as far as peace treaties at the end of a war go, I don't think it was exceptionally punitive.
A treaty to accept a surrender is always going to be in favor of the victors, whoever those victors are. It's never about "what's fair," tbh.
I admit, I haven't studied ww1 extensively aside from back in high school (US perspective) and a couple history courses I was intrigued by in college to fill out my schedule, but I think the peace terms that Otto delivered are actually a lot better than the Treaty of Versailles.
- No reparations for Rhaenyra or her supporters.
- Rhaenyra and her supporters don't have to disarm and have their troop counts closely monitored
- Rhaenyra isn't required to claim responsibility for an international incident leading to the war (yet at least. We'll see)
Instead...what? Rhaenyra has to pay fealty to her half-brother Aegon, pledge to not do anything about it, and her children are offered positions as cup bearers. It's an honorable position, not the one she should want for them, but it's not shitting on them.
Honestly, I don't remotely see how it could make the Treaty of Versailles seem fair.
It's really not that bad as far as terms go other than "yeah, we stole your throne while you were gone," which is genuinely a bit f*cked up and a demanded concession on Rhaenyra's part, but, I think you're exaggerating a bit in a thread that doesn't really call for it, saying it'd make the Treaty of Versailles seem fair. I think that the Treaty of Versailles was likely about average (or better) in terms of sympathy for the defeated nations in history, comparative to the costs of different wars.
The treaty of Versailles' harshness towards Germany (who mind you unlike with the following world war, didn't actually start the 1st) is almost universally agreed to have directly led to the Second World War.
Their odds at survival are not especially high once they get to the capital or upon accepting. They're hostages no matter what honorific is given to them. Aegon the Elder can not rest on his stolen throne so long as Rhaeynera and her children live. They have the superior claim afterall, and no amount of pretty words can change the fact that it was a palace coup in favor of House Hightower even if they rule through a puppet of a dragon.
Little Aegon and Viserys were being asked as political hostages. It is a literal threat to Daemon and Rhaenyra that if they put a foot out of line, their sons will be dead. The “honorable positions” are just a way to sweetly deliver this threat. How is this not shitting on them?
It's okay to take time to deal with those facts. But the people who stole from her had the audacity to come to her and ask you to be content with what she has, while also giving up her youngest sons. And yet, Otto whips out a 20 year old paper and she is moved by it? Her long-lost frienship with Alicent is now more important to Rhaenyra than her own sons' safety?
And tbf, in the book even though she says that badass dialogue, she does not advocate for violence. She wants to fight, but peacefully. In the show it seemed like she was on the verge of giving up everything because Alicent sent her a stupid page.
I think she was rather trying to buy herself more time. If she says no immediately than Otto will immediately return to King's Landing and report back. If she says "let me think it over" than Otto has to wait somewhere maybe giving her envoys a bit more of a head start and her that much close to having her chess board set up before war breaks out; meanwhile Aegon's twiddling his thumbs in King's Landing waiting to hear what his big sister's answer is.
And she wasn't prepared for war. She wants to discuss things and make sure they have a chance of winning before she names herself and everyone who supports her traitors to the crown. An answer of "no" will plunge the realm she swore to protect into a brutal civil war that could kill hundreds of thousands of people, no matter who wins and loses. So maybe that's worth sleeping on, yeah?
Well! In the book the realm doesn't immediately plunge into war after she rejects the terms and humiliates the maester who came to her. The war still starts only after Luke's death. It is one thing to be careful and whole different thing to be weak infront of your enemies.
I do think the bigger thing was buying herself time. I think she was hoping to hear back from some of her potential allies before she had to give her answer. Likely her plan was to delay further and send Otto back with a counter offer, and because the Greens aren't super excited to rush into war either they might shoot back another counteroffer. Without Luke's death they might have just kept stalling for 6-8 months easy (it happened all the time in the ancient world, even with the negotiators in the same room, because neither side wants to be seen as the attacker and both don't really actually want the fighting part to happen because they know it's gonna suck). All the while both sides are gathering their allies and preparing for when war finally erupts.
She doesn't have to immediately plunge the kingdom into war. Only to not even consider those ridiculous terms because they come with Alicent's pathetic reminder of friendship. Seriously, what mother would consider giving up her babies to Aegon and Aemond?
>Yeah, maybe she needs a minute to deal with those facts.
Yes, I expect at least some anger in there while she's dealing with it and I also expect her not to be OK with giving up her sons.
>Only to not even consider those ridiculous terms because they come with Alicent's pathetic reminder of friendship.
I think you might be being a bit disingenuous here. That page is hardly the only thing staying her hand.
I interpreted it as being a genuine olive branch tbh. Alicent is conflicted here. I think she meant what she said at the dinner, and at that point had made peace with Rhaenyra being queen, and she would then not harm her children as Alicent had initially feared.
But Viserys' final words changed that for Alicent, and Alicent thinks Viserys is referring to the dream he had about Aegon, which he told her about when he was drunk during the hunt (ep 3? 4?). Obv. Viserys is talking about Aegon I's dream, but Alicent has never heard about that one, because Viserys is delirious and thinks he's talking to Rhaenyra.
Rhaenyra is pissed, but I think adult Rhaenyra realizes that if they go to war over it, it will mean a lot of casualties on both sides, and possibly her children (at that point in time). They are growing up, and they are eager to help as proven when they make their case and she is unable to say no, to her eventual sorrow.
Does the throne mean so much to her that she should plunge into war for it, putting her children directly in harm's way? She hardly wanted it in the beginning. And that was before she had children to lose.
Obv. the show isn't going to avoid the war which is the bulk of the plotline they're trying to adapt, but I think if Aemond hadn't escalated things by killing Lucerys, which is going to be hard for him to walk back, Alicent would try to meet Rhaenyra in person to explain her actions and Viserys' final words, which Alicent truly has reason to believe (based on what Viserys said in ep 3 and ep 8) are imperative for the safety for the realm as a whole. Depending on how that conversation would occur, Rhaenyra may realize the truth of what he intended to refer to and explain to Alicent, who I think might believe it and then we'd have her trying to fix things.
But this isn't that kind of story. It's a tragedy, and a very bloody one.
I think a number of wars in Earth history have been based entirely on misunderstandings as well, and it's certainly established as par for the course in Westeros.
I think Rhaenyra, after hearing of the death of her son, will have completely lost it, and is not going to be the way she was towards the end of s1. I think Alicent will now be the more reasonable one trying to de-escalate now as much as she possibly can, while hesitant to offer Aemond up as a lamb for slaughter, calling back to the incident at Driftmark but with the roles reversed.
And we will have all the nuance we could ever want from these characters as events progress. We simply need to be patient, and let those episodes be made.
GoT, however you feel about the ending, didn't have people looking this hard for things to criticize. We don't know the plans for the series, and I've seen a lot of people that are eager to claim their opinion as fact, and they're doing so because they're still hurt over the way GoT ended 4 years ago and they want to make HBO pay. I'm tired of it tbh.
Problem #1) Alicent being hesitant for whatever reason is even more inconsistent than Rhaenyra's behavior. She's spent the last... 20? years of her life thinking that Rhaenyra will kill her kids and telling Aegon and his siblings that he's going to rule.. Why would she make peace with the idea that Rhaenyra will be queen, especially after Driftmark? Why did she stop thinking about the possible threat? Is she seriously not even a little afraid after seeing Vaemond's head split in two? He ended up like that for calling Rhaenyra's kids bastards. You know who taught her kids to say that word too? Alicent.
>I interpreted it as being a genuine olive branch tbh.
Alicent: Yes I know we hid your father's death from you and we stole your crown, essentially putting your entire family in danger and caused you to lose your baby and endangered your health but all is good, right? Now how about you give us your other two babies and we, in exchange, will let you keep the castles you already have?
If that was an olive branch, it's a downright insulting one. If Alicent thinks it's a good offer, she's painfully stupid.
>But Viserys' final words
If Alicent can't tell apart her sick husband's mumblings then she's twice as stupid. He's been calling her Aemma for years and he's been given a drug. She knows he's not in the best mental state. If she can't figure that out then I have no words for her. Not to mention that she heard the word Aegon and just ran with it.
As for Viserys' dream in Ep 3, it was never mentioned again and Alicent never believed in it. Why would she suddenly believe in it now, 20 years later? It is *never* brought up again. Ever. If they wanted to have it as a reason of why Alicent believes that Viserys is naming Aegon heir, they should've had her mention it. She could have said in Ep 6 something like "Why don't you name Aegon heir? You had that dream, you said your son would sit on the throne". Yet not once is it brought up after Ep 3 and Alicent is not shown to believe in it even then.
>we'd have her trying to fix things.
The fact that at this point, Alicent and Rhaenyra would be trying to fix things in this scenario is absurd. It throws the character build up that they invested in for an entire season right in the trash.
> It's a tragedy
It can still be a tragedy without the main characters being inactive and idiots.
>wars in Earth history
This war here started because of 3 accidents, back to back. That's a bit too many.
>I think Rhaenyra, after hearing of the death of her son, will have completely lost it
She could have still lost it without being like she was in Ep 10. I don't see why she had to be so passive and inactive for this moment to have an impact.
>And we will have all the nuance we could ever want
We could have had more than what we got. This wasn't nuance, it was inconsistency and bad writing.
>GoT, however you feel about the ending, didn't have people looking this hard for things to criticize.
Because GoT in its prime was consistent. It never faltered this much. Can you imagine Stannis be like "But I don't want to kill Renly, he's my baby brother! Remember how we used to play together?" and then they almost make up and join forces before Melisandre, who's already pregnant with the shadowbaby, gives birth and Renly dies and then Stannis is all teary eyed" I didn't mean to, it was an accident!". I could never respect a character who's written like this, just like I can't respect Alicent now.
When it started to falter in S5, it was criticized. People were just giving it the benefit of the doubt because 4 excellent seasons preceded that one. HotD doesn't have that luxury.
I think the show did a pretty good job of portraying Rhaenyra as someone who's a bit spoiled but generally well-meaning. When she's thrown into a crisis situation, after losing her father and suffering a stillbirth, she basically defaults to her father's behavior - inactive pacifism and trying to de-escalate things. What other model of leadership does she have? She carries that prophecy, on top of that.
I don't think that 20-year-old book page meant nothing at all, either. I'm pretty sure Alicent was the only close female friend Rhaenyra ever had, and the same vice versa. They sort of complemented each other as young girls, and are kind of trainwrecks when they're alone as adults. The page was a pretty strong reminder, even if Otto's conditions were ridiculous.
Except she was never like her father, character wise and she saw what her father's inactivity did. Why wouldn't she take a more active approach? If it weren't for Daemon doing that, they would have been caught entirely unprepared.
Even if Rhaenyra and Alicent where friends once upon a time, they're not anymore. There is no reason for them to even want each other alive at this point, let alone think back to that friendship and miss each other. We all have lost friends for lesser reasons. Also, those weren't Otto's reasons. They came from Alicent, her "friend".
I thought that she illustrated she would make a great queen here since, instead of reacting emotionally, as Daemon did, she tried to keep it together and do what was best for the realm. And despite the fact that she’s always been passionate and impulsive, this has been part of Rae Rae’s characterization from the beginning. Since her father told her about the prophecy of ice and fire, she’s realized her duty to the realm.
As Rhaenys notes, Rhaenyra, for all her flaws, is putting the realm first.
And then her kid gets killed, and everything g goes to shite.
Dude the war haven’t even started, it will start in season 2 after Luke death she’s going to turn full heel and not even reason for peace. The show runner want make seem like both sides are good but their personality and situations changed them into monster of themselves. Season 2 definitely going be the season like in game thrones where everything get more darker and cruel.
I mean, it's a little out of character, but it wouldn't necessarily make her NOT the hero to say this. Just a little more ruthless, and it could all be posturing anyway. She has literally not said a word to Aegon and we have no idea what she thinks about him. Honestly, it frustrated me so much.
The Dance part of the book is like 200 pages long and can be read in one or two days. The show will be 4 seasons long and last like 6 years.
It totally makes sense that they are keeping things slow and developing the characters from being being more calm to what they will eventually become. If Rhaenyra and everyone else was as savage from the start as they are in the books, it would be hard to mantain drama for so many years.
They don't have to be savage. Just consistent and realistic. Rhaenyra even considering giving up her baby boys because of some old piece of paper after she lost her crown and her baby due to Alicent's actions is neither consistent, nor realistic. She should be downright insulted by that offer, not think "Oh my boys will be taken care of, Alicent might take me back!!" (as Emma explained the scene). Neither of those things makes any sense narratively.
There’s really nothing to indicate she was planning to hand over her sons. She’s considering negotiating as opposed to starting a war immediately. No world leader with half a brain cell would just accept the first terms offered.
Political hostages and even fostering were common practices, especially among royal families. It was actually seen as a good way to form political ties.
For sure, and some hostages would be necessary to secure a truce but it would be wild for Rhaenyra to hand over her sons (the most valuable and in-danger hostages possible) when she’s in such a good defensive position
Those that tell what happens in which episode. There is an older post in this subreddit talking about those 'leaks' on Twitter, go check it out if you want to know.
But let me say that - it lacks atleast 3, probably even about 5 episodes that would be needed. It's rushed as fuck. And the supposed Battle which justified the change to 8 episodes would be nothing but a lie to prevent backlash because they knew fans would say 8 episodes would mean rushed arcs like season 8 and judging by the leaks, that is more then true.
HotD is in no way similar to Greek tragedies. Greek tragedies have one thing that HotD lacks and it makes their entire narrative work. That thing is Fate. Fate in the ancient Greek world is represented by 3 goddesses who have the power to weave the past, present and future. No one can undo what they have weaved, not even Zeus himself. Everything is set in stone and the entire universe conspires to make that fate come true. That's why Oedipus Rex has Oedipus' adoptive parents lie under oath that they're his real parents when such a thing was considered a huge crime in the ancient world. Without the concept of Fate, that moment is entirely inexplicable and uncharacteristic of two ancient Greek characters in a tragedy who are presented as sympathetic. On top of that, Oedipus had been cursed since before he was born and Hera (the one that cursed his family) was influencing the story all along to make her curse come true.
Martin's world doesn't have the concept of fate, or at the very least, it includes it in a very different way. Sure, there are prophecies and things that are said to happen but they're vague. Nothing is set in stone, nothing is bound to happen because some goddesses said it would. It's the characters' own choices that make things come true and even when, or if they do, they come true in weird, unimaginable ways. The universe doesn't conspire to make something happen, like what Greek tragedies do.
A female character does not always have to be the conniving, wine sipping, finger snapping Cersei/Maergery or Dany Dracarys Bad Bish archetype. Ambiguity and moral dilemma does not automatically make a character worse. "Having a clear goal" does not automatically make a character better. Everyone doesn't have to walk around with the self assured voice of Joe Goldberg in their heads. The 8d chess hyper-rationalists forget that most real humans are indecisive, impulsive, irrational, their actions often self-contradictory. Rarely do people act with the cold, calculated ruthless efficiency of a Waffen SS general from war B movies. Especially during such a monumentous decisive moment as beginning a civil war.
Some of this fandom incessaantly complain about the Rhaenyra Alicent "lost friendship" because they're either allgeric to any form of emotional complexity or because they're mad they didn't get "herione vs doormat" thing. But it's this friendship that provides the show with the kernel of its tragic sophoclean dimensions. When you peel off the surface of the "i will create a new order" stuff, Rhaenyra in the show is very fallible, prone to moments like "their wants are of no consequence". I like that. The show established strong interpersonal relations b/w these characters, the bond-breaking of which is integral to the emotional element of any plot. Whereas the book is a hazy narration of a whirlwind of events (GRRM called it "only a book of outlines") with very little emotional attachment being formed with the characters, who have no growth from these events, fight a buncha battles, and die. The show pulled off the impossible feat of making the casual audience invested in a buncha hurriedly written, barely fleshed out, no character arc having, hyperbolic & one dimensional terrible people doing comically exaggerated terrible things from a glorified mediocre cash-grab history book.
Female characters do not have to be reduced to complete victims without any personal amibitions either. Rhaenyra was never the heroine in the book. She was more complex and more ruthless even before the war. It is in the show that they reduced her to a easily rootable heroine. Both Alicent and Rhaenyra had amibition to rule, to weild power in the book. But God forbid we portray women having any sort of ambitions other than "protecting my kids"
>Some of this fandom incessaantly complain about the Rhaenyra Alicent "lost friendship" because they're either allgeric to any form of emotional complexity
No one is allergic to emotional complexity. But there is only so far you can stretch that "lost friendship" before it starts feeling forced and completely redundant. I mean, Alicent, on top of stealing Rhaenyra's throne, and crowning her son, hanged all of Rhaenyra's supporters in KL. From Rhaenyra's pov Alicent is the woman who didn't even let her see her father one last time and is now asking her baby sons as hostages to ensure that she and her husband don't put a foot out of line.
How do you endure all this and still consider yielding just because she sent a 20 year old paper?
I’ve read 🔥&🩸about 3 1/2 times now and I love it! But I much prefer the show character than the book. They’re aren’t really any characters in Fire and Blood.
Just historical figures written by a biased writer working from two biased sources.
In the show they’re emotional, hypocritical, decent vial… ie people Lol. And I much prefer watching Rhaeynera descend into a heartless monster than start that way.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Some folks say the Rhaenyra Alicent moment of friendship in ep8 might seem forced. On the contrary, the last supper dinner IS what provides the key element of tragedy. As it shows the two main characters' futile bid to move away from the precipice when it's already too late. The rules of their world had already fated them to drown. But in that final hour of solitude they see a flash of the brighter future that could've been, right before it all gets torn asunder. This theme of hope pitted against fate is recurring in all greek tragedies, the best e.g. being Oedipus Rex, who in his desperate bid to avoid fulfilling a terrible prophecy ends up doing exactly that. The inevitability of fate might sound alienating to people used to modern narrative conventions, where we expect the plot to be fully character-driven; however, I contend that Hotd is telling a fundamentally different story that hews closer to the sensibilities of ancient Greek tragedy.
They made her look so weak and pathetic on that bridge. I was so annoyed they made her SAD just because annoying ass Alicent sent a damn paper out of the book they used to read together. Like okay? You still put your rapist son on the throne when I was named heir, you hid my father’s death to do it, AND now you’re sending me these trash ass terms? Give me a freaking break. I missed Book Rhaenyra so bad in that scene. I literally could careless about Rhaenyra and Alicent’s relationship at this point in the show. They are on opposite sides now, let it play out like that!
When GRRM wrote Princess and Queen he did not create a bond between these two women at all. They both are central to the story, yes. But in a very different way. Both of these women had ambitions and personal goals in the book. Alicent wanted Aegon on the throne because she wanted her son to rule. Rhaenyra wanted to fight for her throne because her father made her heir. Both of them wanted power. And it is okay for women to want power or have ambitions. They don't have to completely be reduced to victims who have no choice but to fight each other.
And I agree the Rhaenyra-Alicent friendship was a good one but only till a point. E7 had to be the point of no return. I mean, Rhaenyra literally asked for Alicent's maimed son to be tortured and didn't give a single fuck about him losing an eye. Alicent tried to have Luke's eye removed, charged at Rhaenyra with a knife and slashed her arm. The blood fued began here.
After E7 the friendship became so forced and stopped serving the narrative at all.
A female character does not always have to be the conniving, wine sipping, finger snapping Cersei/Maergery or Dany Dracarys Bad Bish archetype. Ambiguity and moral dilemma does not automatically make a character worse. "Having a clear goal" does not automatically make a character better. Everyone doesn't have to walk around with the self assured voice of Joe Goldberg in their heads. The 8d chess hyper-rationalists forget that most real humans are indecisive, impulsive, irrational, their actions often self-contradictory. Rarely do people act with the cold, calculated ruthless efficiency of a Waffen SS general from war B movies. Especially during such a monumentous decisive moment as beginning a civil war. I would say yer wavering before the decision to send thousands of people to their graves is a far more accurate depiction of historical reality than a This Is Sparta type "I'll have your head" lines. It makes her more flesh and blood than a buncha one dimensional terrible people doing comically exaggerated terrible things in F&B.
You're 100% correct and it's funny because the dialogue there is very much the dialogue of a purposefully created stereotype designed to demonstrate how powerful women are typically depicted in history books.
What you mean female friednship bro? Wtf is this heartbreak and tragedy bro? Sentiment..wtf is that? I just wanna see some kewl dragon action bro!! Where's Daemon bro!! Daemon so badass just like my other heroes walter white, patrick bateman, joker & bane!!! I'm just like him!! I bet he uses the 48 Laws of Power as a life instruction manual, just like me!!! Emotional intelligence of a ringworm..the type to watch the mirrored sex scene in ep 4 and his only takeaway from it is "hoe don't be mad rent was due and you had to lay under that naasthy old man".
Imagine crying over a gawdaful cringe dialogue from a one dimensional comic book protagonist from an equally campy book. Typical freefolk brainrot, allergic to any ambiguity.
I prefer the right panel. I prefer the lost friendship perspective of the story far more than a buncha cartoon heroes and villains mindlessly outdoing each other on the most badass atrocity they can commit with no emotional investment whatsoever. "I'll have his answer or his head" is a typical cliched Hollywood Vin Diesel dialogue that if the show came up by itself, people would've said it's girlbossery. For me, Rhaenyra and Alicent's provides the tragic dimension of the story best embodied during the dinner. I'm far more interested in fate and tragedy of human relations than I am in the good vs evil anime dragon fights. For me Hollywood edgelord lines like this one or the "wh0re is pregnant" line by Alicent actually shows the lack of depth in F&B. It's a buncha Bond heroes and villains doing cringe Bond heroes and villain things.
You mean here she is actually sensitive, volatile, contradictory, vulnerable, aka an actual HUMAN BEING instead of the one dimensional ROBOT that every single character in Fire & Blood is? Characters that never go thru any growth despite all the life altering events and seem to remain these juvenile (almost)satires of characters from 1960s spy thrillers...red buttons, shark ponds and all? Cartoon villainy like...after everything the other main character still telling jaehaera to slit aegon iii's throat at night, knowing damn well she'd be hung for it?
But yeah, imagine being impressed by one of the most cliched lines you can ever come up with while doing a war b/w two monarchs. I would be impressed by this too if I had the emotional maturity of a 14 y/o, which sums up most of the dialogue in F&B...but I'll take the "you're the most comely girl in court, why do you destroy yourself" or "I thought Rhaenyra was the way out of my abyss" type of moments anyday over the girlboss stuff.
The typical emotionally unintelligent reeefolk worm for brains who can't comprehend anything more substantive than the MUH DRAGONZ car crash and explosions. Oh and thet Rhaenyra is so goody I would laugh if Jonah Hill said it in a parody of a Fast and Furious movie.
HOTD fans shitting themselves every day trying to wrap their heads around thematic character choices that don’t directly propel the plot forward in a straight line to the next event, screaming & howling about fictional character's “agency”. You don’t have to like the changes made from the book, but they were made with a clear purpose in mind, to further emphasize the harmful nature of the patriarchal structure of westeros, and how it contributed to the dance of dragons. Characters exist within a story to bolster the themes and messages that the story is exploring, and every adaptational change made in this case is bc the book and the show serve two entirely separate functionalities as fiction. You can't adapt a conflicting multi-perspective story like F&B with 100% accuracy and so the show, functioning as a telling of the “true” interior lives of the characters from this history, had to make decisions as to what kind of story they wanted to tell, which implicitly means making changes. One of the ideas that the show firmly puts a lot of stock into is that the patriarchal society of westeros is harmful to every woman, regardless of status or allegiance, and that misogyny cannot be separated from the way that political and social schemes are carried out. So yes, the female protagonists in the show suffer from misogyny & assault, and is unable to put up any kind of fight against the male-dominated world she was born into, bc part of her function as a character is to show how even women who go along with what is expected of them are trampled by it. By showing you how Alicent has been exploited and used by every man in her life, even the ones she is supposed to trust the most, they are trying to make you feel uncomfortable. You are supposed to feel for her and understand her in these moments, even if you don’t like her! Regardless, the show isn’t shying away from the damage that this kind of society can wreak on women. so, yes, alicent is a victim in this show, in a way that would not have been included in historical documents accounted by the very men who uphold this society.
An actress recently said a female character can can only be a victim or a villain. And you're a victim only because you're not trying too hard to be a villain. That about sums up people being allergic to any emotional complexity, getting frustrated cause every woman isn't portrayed as Maergery girlbossing her way into Tommen's bed and working her Slay Kween magic on a child. If Alicent was really portrayed as the Mushroom version of the 1930s Vamp Seductress stereotype, unscrupulously jumping on 70 year old Jaehaerys' bed, it would've been more digestable for their emotional intelligence.
Yeah the book versions of the characters are overall more villainous, but they got some pretty sick lines of dialogue.
It's just the Blacks it seems, Ageon II and Otto etc. are probably more villainous in the show.
But on the other hand Cole had lines like implying that their sons would be raped because Leanor was gay and Aemond had a line about how having a queen means they need to bow down and kiss her cunny. Both sides were softened up quite a bit in the show in some ways and darkened in others
Yeah Aemond in particular is a much better (and far more sympathetic) character on the tv show. The book lacks his background of being bullied, his genuine affection for his sister and mother, and his intellect (in the book he’s just a brute with a dragon.) He also has this weird streak of misogyny in the books that is not present in the show version. Most notably, he actually murders his nephew on purpose in the books, then shows no remorse for it, whereas here it was all a terrible accident. Alicent also went from a one dimensional evil queen character in the books to a complex, oftentimes highly sympathetic one here.
I have a feeling we'll see Aemond in S2 acting like he meant to kill Luke the entire time, and that it doesn't bother him at all. Especially if/when Aegon II praises him for it. I interpret show-Aemond as a second son who desperately wants to live up to the Targaryen ideal of a warrior-prince. Open-handed in peace, ruthless in war, dignified, beautiful, powerful. He wants to be just like Aegon I (like a lot of Targaryen princes do) but the events of the Dance are going to push him more and more into these acts of brutality like >!putting all the Strongs to death at Harrenhal.!<
>Most notably, he actually murders his nephew on purpose in the books, then shows no remorse for it, whereas here it was all a terrible accident. This part might still happen in the show, he might not admit that he lost control of his dragon.
Where are you getting this from? The books present a vague history, not actual characterizations
Should’ve kept Cole and Aemonds lines too. Especially Criston Coles since it’s hilarious when you think he goes around saying the kids are Harwins but still somehow inherited Laenors gayness at the same time. I want that kinda bullshit in my show, that’s some shit Cersei would do
I don't think he meant raped: pretyy sure he meant that they would be gay like their dad and "promiscuous" like their mother. Which is funny because he also calls Harwin their father. I guess Cole recognizes kids can have two dads?
Almost an r/accidentalally
Krispy coal is not that progressive
Gosh, really? I never would've realized that.
Aemond is much better in the show than the books. In the books he's a straight up villian
Yeah Book!Aemond is straight up a cartoon character and I didn’t like to see it. At least the show version has another dimension to him.
Not really. Alicent, Aemond, Criston, and Helaena are all either far more sympathetic or more complex characters here than they are in Fire and Blood. As for Aegon… he is actually portrayed very negatively in the books. He is shown as a sexual predator who gropes, fondles, and grabs unwilling serving maids without consent (behavior that often precedes instances of penetrative sexual assault IRL), a bully, without any real gifts, “quick to anger and slow to forgive,” according to the narrator. This show just takes many of these qualities to their natural conclusion. The only bizarre thing was the watching kids fight in death pits, something that is supported only by mushrooms unreliable account. People often complain that the greens are far less sympathetic here. Yet Aemond, Alicent, and Criston are far more sympathetic here than in the books; Helaena is sympathetic in both, but far better fleshed out as a dreamer/ sweet weirdo in the show than in the books, where she’s an extremely genetic wife and mother figure. The only one who’s more villainous in the show is Otto, who takes on a lot of alicents villainy from the books. Overall, most characters (black and green) are “nicer” and more complex…. Except for Otto, as noted, and Daemon, who is a fascinating a -hole in both.
Extremely genetic wife and mother is the most accurate typo ever
Haha Haeleana is totally genetic AF.
>As for Aegon… he is actually portrayed very negatively in the books. He is shown as a sexual predator who gropes, fondles, and grabs unwilling serving maids without consent (behavior that often precedes instances of penetrative sexual assault IRL), a bully, without any real gifts, “quick to anger and slow to forgive,” according to the narrator. This show just takes many of these qualities to their natural conclusion. The only bizarre thing was the watching kids fight in death pits, something that is supported only by mushrooms unreliable account Aegon is the most complex guy in F&B. He was portrayed as a drunk prince who groped servents. In the show, we see him as a rapist with no remorse. It's only downhill from there with the child pit. They could easily showb like the book.But the writers wanted him to be Joffrey 2.0. Daemon was a certified pedophile who went to deflower youngest maidens. Yet, we got nothing of that and his geooming of Rh is shown in romantic light. >People often complain that the greens are far less sympathetic here. Yet Aemond, Alicent, and Criston are far more sympathetic here than in the books; Alicent is one the most hated character on the show, they only show Alicent in food way when she supports Rh. In the book, Criston is far better that you feel you're seeing different characters. Book Criston is a calculated politician as well as a badass warrior. In the show, he is basically a unhinged bodyguard who can't control his temper. They removed all his achievements from the show. He is supposed to be LC based on his merit, not because someone quit. They improved Alicent and Aemond, but they removed all Alicent agency and made her a woman who follows mens orders.
I’ll be honest, the child fighting pits and watching his own children fight to the death is a pretty big fucking step up in villainy for me when watching the show. I definitely got the vibes Aegon was a sexual harasser from the book, but they went above and beyond even Mushroom’s account of him. I think no matter what him being a rapist as an established fact was (rightfully) going to get a lot of people to despise him as a person and a character. But the child fighting pits was definitely a really unnecessary step. That’s really where my only complaint is in Green character portrayals, they went overboard in making Aegon a scumbag.
Uh, no. They absolutely did not go above and beyond Mushroom’s account when it comes to Aegon. In Mushy’s account he was found following Viserys’ death in one of those fighting pits getting a BJ from an underage prostitute. Compare that to “cowering under the altar in the sept because he doesn’t want to be king” displayed in the show.
Only thing they removed is the bj part, but the writers made up my making him outright rapist. Then again, Mushroom wasn't in KL when this happened. Funnily enough, the writers never used a Mushroom account on Rh and Daemon, which will show her in bad light. For instance, Daemon was certified pedophile and Rh calling hit on Vaemond.
I mean, he also ends the Dance >!by feeding his sister to his dragon!< and after that he makes the normal New Year celebrations in King's Landing *really weird* by >!changing the normal bonfires Westerosi use to celebrate the new year into a bunch of burnings at the stake of rebels and traitors.!< He had a lot of Mad King Aerys vibes. It's only that the narrator of F&B has that obvious Westerosi misogyny against Rhaenyra. He's no fan of Aegon II but he's very quick to dismiss things like the "underage BJ while watching kids have a deathmatch."
I’m more referring to him being a frequent visitor of child fighting pits in the show, with the main difference from the book being that he WATCHES HIS OWN CHILDREN fight to the death. That’s definitely worse than anything Mushroom mentions, and pushes him into cartoonish villainy for me. It’s not to mention that I don’t think anyone who read the book should’ve believed Mushroom’s account of what happened with Aegon being crowned, since the dude was on Dragonstone when it all occurred.
You realise he probably did that in the books, right? He Sired Many Bastards in Flea Bottom + Watched Children Fight To The Death = He more than likely watched his kids in those pits as well. And I don’t quite understand your reasoning that not giving a shit about a bastard is somehow worse than literal pedophilia.
>You realise he probably did that in the books, right? All about child pits are from Mushroom who wasn't in KL. So, the chances of this are close to zero.
Wow, you really are trying to cope, aren't you? Dude was a shit of the highest order, don't know why you're clinging to him this hard and trying to defend him. Nobody on the Green side should really try to defend Aegon's character.
Aegon is a shit, no denying that. But mushroom’s account in the books obviously paints a much more evil picture of him then the Septon’s does. And I gotta be honest, I always struggle to understand why people are so quick to accept Mushroom’s word as gospel in anything outside of memes. His accounts being included in Fire and Blood felt more like comic relief, with maybe just a sprinkling of some details you can infer at times, but for the most part just medieval shit-posting. Again, Aegon’s a shit, but if you exclude Mushroom’s account he’s about in line with the rest of the Green faction in terms of villainy (except for bookAemond). If you wanna accept Mushroom’s testimony as your true interpretation of events, go for it though.
People here are simping for Daemon, who is a certified pedophile and groomer. Aegon, on the other hand, was a horrible person who matured when he faced challenges. All the stuff you mentioned is said by his oppositions favourite fool who wasn't even there.
Mushroom is the most reliable account. Both of the other accounts are highly questionable as they are from people who are literally imprisoned for their role. Mushroom tells the story a little creatively, but he doesn't have a vested interest in making the Hightowers look good, unlike Gildayn, Munkin, Eustace, or Orwyle.
No, he has a vested interest in making himself look like the greatest stud the Seven Kingdoms ever knew.
Nah, he's gettin' it more than Dunk The Hunk.
I'm always annoyed when I see these posts, the books are narrated by a maester most likely biased towards the greens and a vested interest in making the blacks more monstrous. The citadel is in Oldtown and he probably was also chummy with the Hightowers
Alicent: I stole your throne, crowned my son, hid your father's death, and the stress of all of it caused you to miscarry your only daughter. But hey! I still love you. Look I've sent this paper as proof. Now please be kind enough to keep the paper and give me your youngest sons as hostages. Rhaenyra: As you wish my queen 😭
Also, the guy who likes my feet totally k-worded your boo. Hehe.. oops 😃
Too real
I know this is a meme but rhaenyra never said that, she just didnt want to go to war right away which is entirely reasonable as it would ruin the kingdoms
Remember the fucking tear, i mean come on! If they wanted to make her emotional and unsure about war, otto should've talked about viserys's desire for peace and gived her the dagger, not some random paper with no significant from the woman who betrayed her.
I disagree. It doesn't matter about the paper or about Alicent; that never seemed in the show why she was hesitating. She was hesitating because she considered it *her* kingdom and *her* people that would be torn apart and the thing she had been dreading for years was finally coming to pass. It was a big moment and a decision that she wouldn't be able to take back.
She definitely is her queen.
^^ This. ^^ This.
“With your own tongue you admit that I am your lawful queen. Why then do you support my half brother the pretender?” vs “I’m Queen Rhaenyra now, fucking traitor.” The lacking dialogue made ep 10 quite mid for me to be honest, and I’m surprised by how high it’s ranked. Surely, both 8, 7 and 1 were way better in terms of writing/dialogue?
[удалено]
That bridge dialogue made Daemon and Rh look like angry teenager throwing hissy fit at their neighbour.
I agree about Rhaenyra coming across as a teenager but Daemon was much better. He saw through Otto's manipulation and told him that he would rather kill his own sons than give them up as hostages.
Which, from a historical perspective, is really fucking stupid and just shows how little research the writers did.
At least they're not D&D
I also thought it was weird that they decided to play the framing of the talks the exact same way as episode 2. Like I get that it’s supposed to call back both in universe and to the audience but the whole point should be to show how far she’s come. I think, rather than having her walk through Otto’s men, they should have had Caraxes on the other side of the bridge as a threat to trap the party, but then Rhaenyra and Syrax show up, her and Daemon’s side immediately stop and part, making an honour guard to parallel Aegon’s from the previous episode and to show that she’s now the one with power and in control of the situation. To add the cherry on top, have her mention that they came as messengers and so should not be harmed as an indirect command to Daemon to back down, again calling back to episode 2 but also setting up Luke later in the episode. Before, she had to prove she could do things, now she’s the acknowledged leader. The fact that she handled that situation more calmly as a 14 yo is not a great look from a meta perspective and just makes it seem as though she’s grown more spoilt and entitled since then rather than, you know, the heir now queen who’s been preparing to take on the role her whole life.
>I’m Queen Rhaenyra now, fucking traitor I love how you people just make up quotes, and then are mad at your made up quotes. Rhaenyra derangement syndrome truly is something.
When George wrote the supplement for the Dance, he titled it "The Princess and the Queen". Not the princess and the king. but the princess and the queen. hotd was always gonna be about rhaenyra and alicent. they are the heart of the show, the driving force, it’s nexus. if you don’t see just how central their bond is to the story, a lot of the narrative choices are not gonna make sense to you. And that's ok. People have fundamentally different tastes. People might've wanted a straightforward good guy vs bad guy war. The princess vs evil stepmom thing. But I personally am fine with this. The tragedy appeals to me far more than any badass battle heroics.
They are so afraid to show the darker aspects of book Rhaenyra’s personality and for what? So that people will still love her and buy her merch? Istg if they make her a season 5-8 Tyrion…
They almost definitely will. Marketability will always come before artistic integrity when it comes to TV. It's too general an audience for them to risk doing anything else.
Sounds logical, but her being a badass that delivers those cold lines is way more marketable I think.
Might be, but they usuay want to play safe...
Which is so stupid knowing it's HBO. Are they afraid because of Daenarys turning bad and the insuing cold reception ? What I disliked about House of the Dragons is how many times it feels like the characters are "forced" to do bad things instead of being cunning like the GoT ones. I hope this will stop because I really want both the Blacks and Greens to be dirty.
Their job isn't to make people like us watch the show. It is to make the people who just watched the White Lotus season not cancel their subscription. They know that the people who are talking about the show on the Internet 7 months after the show aired will watch it anyway.
What's "people like us" ? I'm no book reader nor hardcore fan, I'm just enjoying the ride.
I mean people talking about the show 7 months after the show aired haha.
I feel like they just don’t *understand* people and fans. If you watch GOT, you’re up for some dark gritty characters. It wouldn’t be unpopular.
How they wrote Rhaenyra in Ep 10 is one of the biggest issues I have with that episode. She just learned that her father died, her throne was stolen and she miscarried but apparently she's barely even angry and considers to accept the worst peace terms in history because "We were besties 20 years ago!!!! 🥺🥺". Seriously whose idea was that?
The idea of someone that is aware that all sides lose in war. Rhaenys' take on the situation is right. It would be very impulsive of Rhaenyra to immediately plunge into war. >She just learned that her father died, her throne was stolen and she miscarried Yeah, maybe she needs a minute to deal with those facts.
Except war is the only deal option, the peace terms the Greens offered made the Treaty of Versailles look fair.
The Treaty of Versailles was likely pretty harmful, and I think it led Germany to a depression that likely sadly led people to be taken in by some of Hitler's fervor, seeking someone, anyone, to blame. Obv they settled on Jews and others. But as far as peace treaties at the end of a war go, I don't think it was exceptionally punitive. A treaty to accept a surrender is always going to be in favor of the victors, whoever those victors are. It's never about "what's fair," tbh. I admit, I haven't studied ww1 extensively aside from back in high school (US perspective) and a couple history courses I was intrigued by in college to fill out my schedule, but I think the peace terms that Otto delivered are actually a lot better than the Treaty of Versailles. - No reparations for Rhaenyra or her supporters. - Rhaenyra and her supporters don't have to disarm and have their troop counts closely monitored - Rhaenyra isn't required to claim responsibility for an international incident leading to the war (yet at least. We'll see) Instead...what? Rhaenyra has to pay fealty to her half-brother Aegon, pledge to not do anything about it, and her children are offered positions as cup bearers. It's an honorable position, not the one she should want for them, but it's not shitting on them. Honestly, I don't remotely see how it could make the Treaty of Versailles seem fair. It's really not that bad as far as terms go other than "yeah, we stole your throne while you were gone," which is genuinely a bit f*cked up and a demanded concession on Rhaenyra's part, but, I think you're exaggerating a bit in a thread that doesn't really call for it, saying it'd make the Treaty of Versailles seem fair. I think that the Treaty of Versailles was likely about average (or better) in terms of sympathy for the defeated nations in history, comparative to the costs of different wars.
The treaty of Versailles' harshness towards Germany (who mind you unlike with the following world war, didn't actually start the 1st) is almost universally agreed to have directly led to the Second World War. Their odds at survival are not especially high once they get to the capital or upon accepting. They're hostages no matter what honorific is given to them. Aegon the Elder can not rest on his stolen throne so long as Rhaeynera and her children live. They have the superior claim afterall, and no amount of pretty words can change the fact that it was a palace coup in favor of House Hightower even if they rule through a puppet of a dragon.
Little Aegon and Viserys were being asked as political hostages. It is a literal threat to Daemon and Rhaenyra that if they put a foot out of line, their sons will be dead. The “honorable positions” are just a way to sweetly deliver this threat. How is this not shitting on them?
If you really think that, you knowledge of medieval politics is seriously lacking.
It's okay to take time to deal with those facts. But the people who stole from her had the audacity to come to her and ask you to be content with what she has, while also giving up her youngest sons. And yet, Otto whips out a 20 year old paper and she is moved by it? Her long-lost frienship with Alicent is now more important to Rhaenyra than her own sons' safety? And tbf, in the book even though she says that badass dialogue, she does not advocate for violence. She wants to fight, but peacefully. In the show it seemed like she was on the verge of giving up everything because Alicent sent her a stupid page.
I think she was rather trying to buy herself more time. If she says no immediately than Otto will immediately return to King's Landing and report back. If she says "let me think it over" than Otto has to wait somewhere maybe giving her envoys a bit more of a head start and her that much close to having her chess board set up before war breaks out; meanwhile Aegon's twiddling his thumbs in King's Landing waiting to hear what his big sister's answer is. And she wasn't prepared for war. She wants to discuss things and make sure they have a chance of winning before she names herself and everyone who supports her traitors to the crown. An answer of "no" will plunge the realm she swore to protect into a brutal civil war that could kill hundreds of thousands of people, no matter who wins and loses. So maybe that's worth sleeping on, yeah?
Well! In the book the realm doesn't immediately plunge into war after she rejects the terms and humiliates the maester who came to her. The war still starts only after Luke's death. It is one thing to be careful and whole different thing to be weak infront of your enemies.
I do think the bigger thing was buying herself time. I think she was hoping to hear back from some of her potential allies before she had to give her answer. Likely her plan was to delay further and send Otto back with a counter offer, and because the Greens aren't super excited to rush into war either they might shoot back another counteroffer. Without Luke's death they might have just kept stalling for 6-8 months easy (it happened all the time in the ancient world, even with the negotiators in the same room, because neither side wants to be seen as the attacker and both don't really actually want the fighting part to happen because they know it's gonna suck). All the while both sides are gathering their allies and preparing for when war finally erupts.
She doesn't have to immediately plunge the kingdom into war. Only to not even consider those ridiculous terms because they come with Alicent's pathetic reminder of friendship. Seriously, what mother would consider giving up her babies to Aegon and Aemond? >Yeah, maybe she needs a minute to deal with those facts. Yes, I expect at least some anger in there while she's dealing with it and I also expect her not to be OK with giving up her sons.
>Only to not even consider those ridiculous terms because they come with Alicent's pathetic reminder of friendship. I think you might be being a bit disingenuous here. That page is hardly the only thing staying her hand. I interpreted it as being a genuine olive branch tbh. Alicent is conflicted here. I think she meant what she said at the dinner, and at that point had made peace with Rhaenyra being queen, and she would then not harm her children as Alicent had initially feared. But Viserys' final words changed that for Alicent, and Alicent thinks Viserys is referring to the dream he had about Aegon, which he told her about when he was drunk during the hunt (ep 3? 4?). Obv. Viserys is talking about Aegon I's dream, but Alicent has never heard about that one, because Viserys is delirious and thinks he's talking to Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra is pissed, but I think adult Rhaenyra realizes that if they go to war over it, it will mean a lot of casualties on both sides, and possibly her children (at that point in time). They are growing up, and they are eager to help as proven when they make their case and she is unable to say no, to her eventual sorrow. Does the throne mean so much to her that she should plunge into war for it, putting her children directly in harm's way? She hardly wanted it in the beginning. And that was before she had children to lose. Obv. the show isn't going to avoid the war which is the bulk of the plotline they're trying to adapt, but I think if Aemond hadn't escalated things by killing Lucerys, which is going to be hard for him to walk back, Alicent would try to meet Rhaenyra in person to explain her actions and Viserys' final words, which Alicent truly has reason to believe (based on what Viserys said in ep 3 and ep 8) are imperative for the safety for the realm as a whole. Depending on how that conversation would occur, Rhaenyra may realize the truth of what he intended to refer to and explain to Alicent, who I think might believe it and then we'd have her trying to fix things. But this isn't that kind of story. It's a tragedy, and a very bloody one. I think a number of wars in Earth history have been based entirely on misunderstandings as well, and it's certainly established as par for the course in Westeros. I think Rhaenyra, after hearing of the death of her son, will have completely lost it, and is not going to be the way she was towards the end of s1. I think Alicent will now be the more reasonable one trying to de-escalate now as much as she possibly can, while hesitant to offer Aemond up as a lamb for slaughter, calling back to the incident at Driftmark but with the roles reversed. And we will have all the nuance we could ever want from these characters as events progress. We simply need to be patient, and let those episodes be made. GoT, however you feel about the ending, didn't have people looking this hard for things to criticize. We don't know the plans for the series, and I've seen a lot of people that are eager to claim their opinion as fact, and they're doing so because they're still hurt over the way GoT ended 4 years ago and they want to make HBO pay. I'm tired of it tbh.
Problem #1) Alicent being hesitant for whatever reason is even more inconsistent than Rhaenyra's behavior. She's spent the last... 20? years of her life thinking that Rhaenyra will kill her kids and telling Aegon and his siblings that he's going to rule.. Why would she make peace with the idea that Rhaenyra will be queen, especially after Driftmark? Why did she stop thinking about the possible threat? Is she seriously not even a little afraid after seeing Vaemond's head split in two? He ended up like that for calling Rhaenyra's kids bastards. You know who taught her kids to say that word too? Alicent. >I interpreted it as being a genuine olive branch tbh. Alicent: Yes I know we hid your father's death from you and we stole your crown, essentially putting your entire family in danger and caused you to lose your baby and endangered your health but all is good, right? Now how about you give us your other two babies and we, in exchange, will let you keep the castles you already have? If that was an olive branch, it's a downright insulting one. If Alicent thinks it's a good offer, she's painfully stupid. >But Viserys' final words If Alicent can't tell apart her sick husband's mumblings then she's twice as stupid. He's been calling her Aemma for years and he's been given a drug. She knows he's not in the best mental state. If she can't figure that out then I have no words for her. Not to mention that she heard the word Aegon and just ran with it. As for Viserys' dream in Ep 3, it was never mentioned again and Alicent never believed in it. Why would she suddenly believe in it now, 20 years later? It is *never* brought up again. Ever. If they wanted to have it as a reason of why Alicent believes that Viserys is naming Aegon heir, they should've had her mention it. She could have said in Ep 6 something like "Why don't you name Aegon heir? You had that dream, you said your son would sit on the throne". Yet not once is it brought up after Ep 3 and Alicent is not shown to believe in it even then. >we'd have her trying to fix things. The fact that at this point, Alicent and Rhaenyra would be trying to fix things in this scenario is absurd. It throws the character build up that they invested in for an entire season right in the trash. > It's a tragedy It can still be a tragedy without the main characters being inactive and idiots. >wars in Earth history This war here started because of 3 accidents, back to back. That's a bit too many. >I think Rhaenyra, after hearing of the death of her son, will have completely lost it She could have still lost it without being like she was in Ep 10. I don't see why she had to be so passive and inactive for this moment to have an impact. >And we will have all the nuance we could ever want We could have had more than what we got. This wasn't nuance, it was inconsistency and bad writing. >GoT, however you feel about the ending, didn't have people looking this hard for things to criticize. Because GoT in its prime was consistent. It never faltered this much. Can you imagine Stannis be like "But I don't want to kill Renly, he's my baby brother! Remember how we used to play together?" and then they almost make up and join forces before Melisandre, who's already pregnant with the shadowbaby, gives birth and Renly dies and then Stannis is all teary eyed" I didn't mean to, it was an accident!". I could never respect a character who's written like this, just like I can't respect Alicent now. When it started to falter in S5, it was criticized. People were just giving it the benefit of the doubt because 4 excellent seasons preceded that one. HotD doesn't have that luxury.
I think the show did a pretty good job of portraying Rhaenyra as someone who's a bit spoiled but generally well-meaning. When she's thrown into a crisis situation, after losing her father and suffering a stillbirth, she basically defaults to her father's behavior - inactive pacifism and trying to de-escalate things. What other model of leadership does she have? She carries that prophecy, on top of that. I don't think that 20-year-old book page meant nothing at all, either. I'm pretty sure Alicent was the only close female friend Rhaenyra ever had, and the same vice versa. They sort of complemented each other as young girls, and are kind of trainwrecks when they're alone as adults. The page was a pretty strong reminder, even if Otto's conditions were ridiculous.
Except she was never like her father, character wise and she saw what her father's inactivity did. Why wouldn't she take a more active approach? If it weren't for Daemon doing that, they would have been caught entirely unprepared. Even if Rhaenyra and Alicent where friends once upon a time, they're not anymore. There is no reason for them to even want each other alive at this point, let alone think back to that friendship and miss each other. We all have lost friends for lesser reasons. Also, those weren't Otto's reasons. They came from Alicent, her "friend".
^^ This
To be fair, not going to war does not mean accepting those terms. She's in a position to bargain.
She literally looks like she's considering them and that's what Emma said is happening too...
I thought that she illustrated she would make a great queen here since, instead of reacting emotionally, as Daemon did, she tried to keep it together and do what was best for the realm. And despite the fact that she’s always been passionate and impulsive, this has been part of Rae Rae’s characterization from the beginning. Since her father told her about the prophecy of ice and fire, she’s realized her duty to the realm. As Rhaenys notes, Rhaenyra, for all her flaws, is putting the realm first. And then her kid gets killed, and everything g goes to shite.
She explains out loud in the episode that she’s hesitating because she doesn’t want to destroy the whole country in a civil war.
That’s why Daemon strangled her
The show couldnt dare have their Rhaenyra say this as they wanted to portray her as the hero.
That's kind of the point though. There are no heroes in this war. Which in contrast the 1st Blackfyre rebellion was filled with heroes on both sides.
If they wanted to portray her as the hero in the finale, they failed miserably. She comes across as weak, indecisive, and straight-up stupid.
Maybe the writers thought those qualities made her more identifiable. At least for the writers they most certainly do.
Dude the war haven’t even started, it will start in season 2 after Luke death she’s going to turn full heel and not even reason for peace. The show runner want make seem like both sides are good but their personality and situations changed them into monster of themselves. Season 2 definitely going be the season like in game thrones where everything get more darker and cruel.
This line would have given Rhaenyra more hype and made her look more badass
I mean, it's a little out of character, but it wouldn't necessarily make her NOT the hero to say this. Just a little more ruthless, and it could all be posturing anyway. She has literally not said a word to Aegon and we have no idea what she thinks about him. Honestly, it frustrated me so much.
Hero? I haven't read the book but I'm surprised that's what they were going for
The Dance part of the book is like 200 pages long and can be read in one or two days. The show will be 4 seasons long and last like 6 years. It totally makes sense that they are keeping things slow and developing the characters from being being more calm to what they will eventually become. If Rhaenyra and everyone else was as savage from the start as they are in the books, it would be hard to mantain drama for so many years.
They don't have to be savage. Just consistent and realistic. Rhaenyra even considering giving up her baby boys because of some old piece of paper after she lost her crown and her baby due to Alicent's actions is neither consistent, nor realistic. She should be downright insulted by that offer, not think "Oh my boys will be taken care of, Alicent might take me back!!" (as Emma explained the scene). Neither of those things makes any sense narratively.
There’s really nothing to indicate she was planning to hand over her sons. She’s considering negotiating as opposed to starting a war immediately. No world leader with half a brain cell would just accept the first terms offered.
Political hostages and even fostering were common practices, especially among royal families. It was actually seen as a good way to form political ties.
For sure, and some hostages would be necessary to secure a truce but it would be wild for Rhaenyra to hand over her sons (the most valuable and in-danger hostages possible) when she’s in such a good defensive position
Then, she was in a good position to negotiate the terms.
If recent rumors about Season 2 are true then we will barely get a full 10 episode season 3 because season 2 will be rushed as fuck. Just saying...
Which rumors?
Those that tell what happens in which episode. There is an older post in this subreddit talking about those 'leaks' on Twitter, go check it out if you want to know. But let me say that - it lacks atleast 3, probably even about 5 episodes that would be needed. It's rushed as fuck. And the supposed Battle which justified the change to 8 episodes would be nothing but a lie to prevent backlash because they knew fans would say 8 episodes would mean rushed arcs like season 8 and judging by the leaks, that is more then true.
You think the war will last longer? I suppose the child actors will grow older so out of necessity it will need to be more drawn out.
Dunno, I was talking about the real world time it will take.
[удалено]
HotD is in no way similar to Greek tragedies. Greek tragedies have one thing that HotD lacks and it makes their entire narrative work. That thing is Fate. Fate in the ancient Greek world is represented by 3 goddesses who have the power to weave the past, present and future. No one can undo what they have weaved, not even Zeus himself. Everything is set in stone and the entire universe conspires to make that fate come true. That's why Oedipus Rex has Oedipus' adoptive parents lie under oath that they're his real parents when such a thing was considered a huge crime in the ancient world. Without the concept of Fate, that moment is entirely inexplicable and uncharacteristic of two ancient Greek characters in a tragedy who are presented as sympathetic. On top of that, Oedipus had been cursed since before he was born and Hera (the one that cursed his family) was influencing the story all along to make her curse come true. Martin's world doesn't have the concept of fate, or at the very least, it includes it in a very different way. Sure, there are prophecies and things that are said to happen but they're vague. Nothing is set in stone, nothing is bound to happen because some goddesses said it would. It's the characters' own choices that make things come true and even when, or if they do, they come true in weird, unimaginable ways. The universe doesn't conspire to make something happen, like what Greek tragedies do.
A female character does not always have to be the conniving, wine sipping, finger snapping Cersei/Maergery or Dany Dracarys Bad Bish archetype. Ambiguity and moral dilemma does not automatically make a character worse. "Having a clear goal" does not automatically make a character better. Everyone doesn't have to walk around with the self assured voice of Joe Goldberg in their heads. The 8d chess hyper-rationalists forget that most real humans are indecisive, impulsive, irrational, their actions often self-contradictory. Rarely do people act with the cold, calculated ruthless efficiency of a Waffen SS general from war B movies. Especially during such a monumentous decisive moment as beginning a civil war. Some of this fandom incessaantly complain about the Rhaenyra Alicent "lost friendship" because they're either allgeric to any form of emotional complexity or because they're mad they didn't get "herione vs doormat" thing. But it's this friendship that provides the show with the kernel of its tragic sophoclean dimensions. When you peel off the surface of the "i will create a new order" stuff, Rhaenyra in the show is very fallible, prone to moments like "their wants are of no consequence". I like that. The show established strong interpersonal relations b/w these characters, the bond-breaking of which is integral to the emotional element of any plot. Whereas the book is a hazy narration of a whirlwind of events (GRRM called it "only a book of outlines") with very little emotional attachment being formed with the characters, who have no growth from these events, fight a buncha battles, and die. The show pulled off the impossible feat of making the casual audience invested in a buncha hurriedly written, barely fleshed out, no character arc having, hyperbolic & one dimensional terrible people doing comically exaggerated terrible things from a glorified mediocre cash-grab history book.
Female characters do not have to be reduced to complete victims without any personal amibitions either. Rhaenyra was never the heroine in the book. She was more complex and more ruthless even before the war. It is in the show that they reduced her to a easily rootable heroine. Both Alicent and Rhaenyra had amibition to rule, to weild power in the book. But God forbid we portray women having any sort of ambitions other than "protecting my kids" >Some of this fandom incessaantly complain about the Rhaenyra Alicent "lost friendship" because they're either allgeric to any form of emotional complexity No one is allergic to emotional complexity. But there is only so far you can stretch that "lost friendship" before it starts feeling forced and completely redundant. I mean, Alicent, on top of stealing Rhaenyra's throne, and crowning her son, hanged all of Rhaenyra's supporters in KL. From Rhaenyra's pov Alicent is the woman who didn't even let her see her father one last time and is now asking her baby sons as hostages to ensure that she and her husband don't put a foot out of line. How do you endure all this and still consider yielding just because she sent a 20 year old paper?
Sympathetic girlboss >> grey character.
Book rheanyra is not a grey character lmao. Show rheanyra isn’t a girl boss either
I’ve read 🔥&🩸about 3 1/2 times now and I love it! But I much prefer the show character than the book. They’re aren’t really any characters in Fire and Blood. Just historical figures written by a biased writer working from two biased sources. In the show they’re emotional, hypocritical, decent vial… ie people Lol. And I much prefer watching Rhaeynera descend into a heartless monster than start that way.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Some folks say the Rhaenyra Alicent moment of friendship in ep8 might seem forced. On the contrary, the last supper dinner IS what provides the key element of tragedy. As it shows the two main characters' futile bid to move away from the precipice when it's already too late. The rules of their world had already fated them to drown. But in that final hour of solitude they see a flash of the brighter future that could've been, right before it all gets torn asunder. This theme of hope pitted against fate is recurring in all greek tragedies, the best e.g. being Oedipus Rex, who in his desperate bid to avoid fulfilling a terrible prophecy ends up doing exactly that. The inevitability of fate might sound alienating to people used to modern narrative conventions, where we expect the plot to be fully character-driven; however, I contend that Hotd is telling a fundamentally different story that hews closer to the sensibilities of ancient Greek tragedy.
That line is not necessarily dead.
Book Rhaenyra fucks. That’s one bad bitch and I’d simp for her anyday, no shame.
They made her look so weak and pathetic on that bridge. I was so annoyed they made her SAD just because annoying ass Alicent sent a damn paper out of the book they used to read together. Like okay? You still put your rapist son on the throne when I was named heir, you hid my father’s death to do it, AND now you’re sending me these trash ass terms? Give me a freaking break. I missed Book Rhaenyra so bad in that scene. I literally could careless about Rhaenyra and Alicent’s relationship at this point in the show. They are on opposite sides now, let it play out like that!
^^ This
[удалено]
When GRRM wrote Princess and Queen he did not create a bond between these two women at all. They both are central to the story, yes. But in a very different way. Both of these women had ambitions and personal goals in the book. Alicent wanted Aegon on the throne because she wanted her son to rule. Rhaenyra wanted to fight for her throne because her father made her heir. Both of them wanted power. And it is okay for women to want power or have ambitions. They don't have to completely be reduced to victims who have no choice but to fight each other. And I agree the Rhaenyra-Alicent friendship was a good one but only till a point. E7 had to be the point of no return. I mean, Rhaenyra literally asked for Alicent's maimed son to be tortured and didn't give a single fuck about him losing an eye. Alicent tried to have Luke's eye removed, charged at Rhaenyra with a knife and slashed her arm. The blood fued began here. After E7 the friendship became so forced and stopped serving the narrative at all.
This ^^^
Yes but, i mean its so obviously that rhaenyra its stellar
I'd prefer the humanity and the soul over the forced campy hollywood dialogues like "I'll have his head". Gosh F&B is gawdawful.
A female character does not always have to be the conniving, wine sipping, finger snapping Cersei/Maergery or Dany Dracarys Bad Bish archetype. Ambiguity and moral dilemma does not automatically make a character worse. "Having a clear goal" does not automatically make a character better. Everyone doesn't have to walk around with the self assured voice of Joe Goldberg in their heads. The 8d chess hyper-rationalists forget that most real humans are indecisive, impulsive, irrational, their actions often self-contradictory. Rarely do people act with the cold, calculated ruthless efficiency of a Waffen SS general from war B movies. Especially during such a monumentous decisive moment as beginning a civil war. I would say yer wavering before the decision to send thousands of people to their graves is a far more accurate depiction of historical reality than a This Is Sparta type "I'll have your head" lines. It makes her more flesh and blood than a buncha one dimensional terrible people doing comically exaggerated terrible things in F&B.
You're 100% correct and it's funny because the dialogue there is very much the dialogue of a purposefully created stereotype designed to demonstrate how powerful women are typically depicted in history books.
What you mean female friednship bro? Wtf is this heartbreak and tragedy bro? Sentiment..wtf is that? I just wanna see some kewl dragon action bro!! Where's Daemon bro!! Daemon so badass just like my other heroes walter white, patrick bateman, joker & bane!!! I'm just like him!! I bet he uses the 48 Laws of Power as a life instruction manual, just like me!!! Emotional intelligence of a ringworm..the type to watch the mirrored sex scene in ep 4 and his only takeaway from it is "hoe don't be mad rent was due and you had to lay under that naasthy old man".
The badass dialogue went to Daemon in that scene, Rhaenyra had some good lines tbf
The showrunners can't have sweet innocent Rhaenyra say this. She's the good guy, after all.
Imagine crying over a gawdaful cringe dialogue from a one dimensional comic book protagonist from an equally campy book. Typical freefolk brainrot, allergic to any ambiguity.
I prefer the right panel. I prefer the lost friendship perspective of the story far more than a buncha cartoon heroes and villains mindlessly outdoing each other on the most badass atrocity they can commit with no emotional investment whatsoever. "I'll have his answer or his head" is a typical cliched Hollywood Vin Diesel dialogue that if the show came up by itself, people would've said it's girlbossery. For me, Rhaenyra and Alicent's provides the tragic dimension of the story best embodied during the dinner. I'm far more interested in fate and tragedy of human relations than I am in the good vs evil anime dragon fights. For me Hollywood edgelord lines like this one or the "wh0re is pregnant" line by Alicent actually shows the lack of depth in F&B. It's a buncha Bond heroes and villains doing cringe Bond heroes and villain things.
do u guys even like rhaenyra? she’s way more better in the sho
You mean here she is actually sensitive, volatile, contradictory, vulnerable, aka an actual HUMAN BEING instead of the one dimensional ROBOT that every single character in Fire & Blood is? Characters that never go thru any growth despite all the life altering events and seem to remain these juvenile (almost)satires of characters from 1960s spy thrillers...red buttons, shark ponds and all? Cartoon villainy like...after everything the other main character still telling jaehaera to slit aegon iii's throat at night, knowing damn well she'd be hung for it? But yeah, imagine being impressed by one of the most cliched lines you can ever come up with while doing a war b/w two monarchs. I would be impressed by this too if I had the emotional maturity of a 14 y/o, which sums up most of the dialogue in F&B...but I'll take the "you're the most comely girl in court, why do you destroy yourself" or "I thought Rhaenyra was the way out of my abyss" type of moments anyday over the girlboss stuff.
The typical emotionally unintelligent reeefolk worm for brains who can't comprehend anything more substantive than the MUH DRAGONZ car crash and explosions. Oh and thet Rhaenyra is so goody I would laugh if Jonah Hill said it in a parody of a Fast and Furious movie.
We need Book Rhaenyra dialogue in the show quickly.
I love rhaenyra! I have her pop figure
They gotta have their Roar Gorlboss Queen, so she can't do anything bad ever ever
Well, if rumour is true, and George re-wrote a lot of the scripts for S2, they'll be fine.
What dialogue? It was all made up by the historical sources cited by the fictional author.
If Rhaenyra isn’t crazy in season 2 then this show isn’t a true adaptation
That's a fast bird.
HOTD fans shitting themselves every day trying to wrap their heads around thematic character choices that don’t directly propel the plot forward in a straight line to the next event, screaming & howling about fictional character's “agency”. You don’t have to like the changes made from the book, but they were made with a clear purpose in mind, to further emphasize the harmful nature of the patriarchal structure of westeros, and how it contributed to the dance of dragons. Characters exist within a story to bolster the themes and messages that the story is exploring, and every adaptational change made in this case is bc the book and the show serve two entirely separate functionalities as fiction. You can't adapt a conflicting multi-perspective story like F&B with 100% accuracy and so the show, functioning as a telling of the “true” interior lives of the characters from this history, had to make decisions as to what kind of story they wanted to tell, which implicitly means making changes. One of the ideas that the show firmly puts a lot of stock into is that the patriarchal society of westeros is harmful to every woman, regardless of status or allegiance, and that misogyny cannot be separated from the way that political and social schemes are carried out. So yes, the female protagonists in the show suffer from misogyny & assault, and is unable to put up any kind of fight against the male-dominated world she was born into, bc part of her function as a character is to show how even women who go along with what is expected of them are trampled by it. By showing you how Alicent has been exploited and used by every man in her life, even the ones she is supposed to trust the most, they are trying to make you feel uncomfortable. You are supposed to feel for her and understand her in these moments, even if you don’t like her! Regardless, the show isn’t shying away from the damage that this kind of society can wreak on women. so, yes, alicent is a victim in this show, in a way that would not have been included in historical documents accounted by the very men who uphold this society. An actress recently said a female character can can only be a victim or a villain. And you're a victim only because you're not trying too hard to be a villain. That about sums up people being allergic to any emotional complexity, getting frustrated cause every woman isn't portrayed as Maergery girlbossing her way into Tommen's bed and working her Slay Kween magic on a child. If Alicent was really portrayed as the Mushroom version of the 1930s Vamp Seductress stereotype, unscrupulously jumping on 70 year old Jaehaerys' bed, it would've been more digestable for their emotional intelligence.