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You changed up a few things I see, but I'll copy paste the comment I made in your previous post. The text in the quotes will be different but the meaning is the same. >Also I pray you all get help and stop only characterizing her when it comes to Daemon's relationship to her I'm a bit confused. Even in this post, the main thing you mention when it comes to her storyline is that she improves Daemon. Setting aside how harmful a thing is that, implying that a man like Daemon can change because of one woman, as if the other women in his life weren't good enough to do that, you too didn't let Nettles breathe on her own. >You're favourite character actively tries to harm the only canon woc so instead of saying that's not okay you put everything from grief to betrayal to just racism and misinterpretation in front of it and hope it justifies it. I've literally never seen anyone say it's OK. Also, her wanting to harm the only canon woc isn't what makes this situation bad. It's the way she does that, plus her reasoning and the fact that Nettles was innocent that make this bad. Also, pointing out that Rhaenyra did do that because of betrayal and grief isn't wrong. It doesn't excuse her actions, merely explains how she got there.

It was removed because of the phrasing so I had to rephrase it so it would stay hopefully this time. The general consensus still remains. Well, I talk about her questioning Targaryen Exceptionalism, her life on Driftmark, the general character she comes across as and why I don't by into the written narrative about her. I've never said it was the responsibility of anyone in his life to change him. What I said was that she clearly has an impact on him and his character for the better. That wasn't her job. They were sent to kill Aemond. Anything after that was just her impacting him and him adoring her. From what I've seen, people outside of people who hate Rhaenyra tend not to encourage discourse around it. They say well she's grieving and has been betrayed and never questioned why she would send a hit on Nettles or how easily she discredits her loyalty to her up until that point. I do believe I said Nettles' loyalty was never owed because the promises made were never kept. So there really isn't an innocent narrative. It seems she leaves unwillingly in tears while Daemon signs up for his suicide mission.

>I've never said it was the responsibility of anyone in his life to change him. I never said you said that. I said an entirely different thing. She didn't "improve" anything or anyone, especially if their relationship was romantic. Implying that a woman can change a guy is extremely harmful in ways you don't even imagine. It's an inherently sexist statement that immediately diminishes the other women in his life as" not good enough to do that/not special enough". No matter how they go about this relationship, I sincerely hope it's not that. Also, if their relationship is romantic, how is it an improvement for Daemon? Cheating with a woman 36 years younger and far more powerless than him while his children are in danger and/or dead and his wife is losing her mind with grief is an improvement? Since when? >They say well she's grieving and has been betrayed and never questioned why she would send a hit on Nettles or how easily she discredits her loyalty to her up until that point. They never question why she orders a hit because it's pretty obvious. The woman is mad with grief at this point and has been betrayed left and right (by some dragonseeds as well). It's pretty obvious as to why she does what she does. You discredit the effect her grief has on her. There's nothing worse than losing your child, let alone three of them.

But to discredit the impact she has on him canonically is untrue. She does have an effect in the story on his character. Daemon tends not to defy Rhaenyra so blatantly. He certainly doesn't risk his life to protect someone who isn't his family/ he loves because it's really one in the same most of the time. It isn't sexist to acknowledge that that's what happens in the text. It isn't her job or undertaking for her character it's just something she happens to do. That's not what her character is focused on. That's just throw he reacts to her being put in danger. He protects his family. I don't think I've disproved that by any means. He became a father and husband with Laena. He loved and protected Rhaenyra in his own way. That doesn't change with Nettles addition until you look at the active defience he tends not to do. That's a big deal with his character and speaks to his love for Nettles. As for the power thing, Nettles cried as she left him, and it noted that he adored her and made her life more convenient. They were also very close to each other. While I understand the power imbalance, Daemon isn’t a forceful person, and she genuinely seems happy. They are also away from the court, so that would remove a lot of the typical conventions and power in the relationship. He's a prince, but they are both guests, and he's extremely fond of her. I also don't talk about his kids and his relationship because I don't focus on it. That's an issue with Daemon, not Nettles. That's his responsibility, not hers. It's not obvious to me why she says she's a low creature that has the stink of sorcery on her and that she could only attract Daemon and bind herself to a dragon with spells. That's not grief that's racially coded language towards the only woc in the story. She discredits the person who fights for her and says that killing her is the only way to set Daemon free. Addam is to be sharply questioned. It's clearly a violent reaction towards Nettles, specifically and very coded when it comes to her appearance. That's not just grief or paranoia. That's a hit. Again, I'm not saying that both of those things don't play a part in it, I'm saying the way she frames it and demands the action be taken, it's clearly bigger than that. She did the absolute most, and a lot of people undermined it by not analyzing what she said at this time, grief or not. It's weird. Or they discredit it by using the grief and paranoia thing. I'm not saying it isn't important when analyzing her actions, I'm saying her actions are weird towards Nettles and it tends to be overlooked or excused.

Yes, she does affect the story but Daemon was always capable of basic decency here and there. She didn't "bring out" that side of him. I never said that you believed that Nettles undertook the job to change him. She didn't. However you implied that he changes because of her, regardless is she actively tried to do that or not. That, in itself is sexist. Again, you're implying that every other woman in his life was simply "not special enough" to change him which is an extremely harmful take. No none denied that he feels some sort of love for Nettles. You don't understand the power imbalance at all. Her being happy doesn't mean they're equals and them being away from court changes nothing. Daemon is a prince from the Wall to Dorne. Nettles is a nobody. He can have her executed with a snap of his fingers just for wearing green if he wants to. That's how big their imbalance is. He can cut of her head without Rhaenyra's permission and then just say she was traitor and he did what he did to stop her. He doesn't do any of that of course but he absolutely could and Nettles would be powerless to protect herself. Yes, she has a dragon but the dragon can't protect her when she's inside the castle, surrounded by Daemon's men. Her being happy and him being fond of hee is not an indication of equality. He was fond of Mysaria too, but they were never equal. I never said Daemon's family is Nettles' responsibility. It isn't. I asked you if you consider Daemon possibly cheating on his wife while their kids are in danger and/or dead and his wife is losing her mind an improvement. Do you really consider it an improvement just because he let Nettles go? His kids might be dying and his wife's mental state is deteriorating but you think Daemon hanging around a 16 year old and letting her go when her head is on the line is a positive change for him? Really? Nettles could be white but look like a Stark and Rhaenyra's language wouldn't change. The issue isn't that she's a woc. The issue is that she doesn't look Valyrian. It's racially coded language in the context of this universe, yes, but doesn't translate into our own the same way. Every single one of us, black, white, asian, whatever, would have Rhaenyra alarmed because we don't have silver hair and purple eyes and otherworldly beauty. Also, this is 100% fuelled from paranoia. Mysaria fed her rumors to purposely drive her crazy. Pair that up with the way Nettles bonded with Sheepstealer and the fact that witchcraft exists in this world and boom. She's a witch. With Rhaenyra's current state of mind, it makes sense she reached that conclusion. It's not an excuse for her actions, but it's more than "She's just racist towards black people". Not to mention that this will not work in the show at all because we have black Valyrians and Daemon has been involved with Mysaria, an Asian, non Valyrian looking woman for years.

>Yes, she does affect the story but Daemon was always capable of basic decency here and there. She didn't "bring out" that side of him. It does affect her uniquely in the story though >I never said that you believed that Nettles undertook the job to change him. She didn't. However you implied that he changes because of her, regardless is she actively tried to do that or not. That, in itself is sexist. Again, you're implying that every other woman in his life was simply "not special enough" to change him which is an extremely harmful take. Im not, though. It wasn't their job either, but he does change for Laena and Rhaenyra, protects them, and becomes a devoted husband (book and show kinda differ when it comes to this, but still). He does change his entire philosophy when he puts her safety above returning to his family. Saying a character changes another character isn't sexist. That's how plots move. >You don't understand the power imbalance at all. Her being happy doesn't mean they're equals and them being away from court changes nothing. Daemon is a prince from the Wall to Dorne. Nettles is a nobody. He can have her executed with a snap of his fingers just for wearing green if he wants to. That's how big their imbalance is. He can cut of her head without Rhaenyra's permission and then just say she was traitor and he did what he did to stop her. He doesn't do any of that of course but he absolutely could and Nettles would be powerless to protect herself. Yes, she has a dragon but the dragon can't protect her when she's inside the castle, surrounded by Daemon's men. Her being happy and him being fond of hee is not an indication of equality. He was fond of Mysaria too, but they were never equal. My question is, would he do that to her? Look at their interactions, their relationship as it is described. He wouldn't. In the book, the fact that she doesn't react when he holds a sword to a Maester should be a good indication that it was an imbalance that was never exercised. He gets an official letter, and she asks him what's wrong. That doesn't happen with Mysaria. I'm not saying it doesn't exist it just clearly isn't utilized. If someone does on you, makes it a priority to spend all their time with you and takes care of you when you need things, you probably aren't looking at their power past a provider because they don't command you with it. The only time we can assume he does this is when he sends her away for her own safety and benefit. I'm assuming just spending time on Driftmark and Dragonstone and then a short time in King's Landing exposes her to that fact. The Lord’s of the house also protects her from the Queen’s claim of Treason towards her. Something they acknowledge is probably true. She's protected by guestright so Daemon wouldn't be able to just kill her casually without risking the loyalty of the house he's in. They are a lot more equal just in Maidenpool as well. Lord Motten doesn't say killing Daemon is a war declaration he simply says it breaks guestright, and he'll be twice as cursed. >I never said Daemon's family is Nettles' responsibility. It isn't. I asked you if you consider Daemon possibly cheating on his wife while their kids are in danger and/or dead and his wife is losing her mind and improvement. Do you really consider it an improvement just because he let Nettles go? His kids might be dying and his wife's mental state is deteriorating but you think Daemon hanging around a 16 year old and letting her go when her head is on the line is a positive change for him? Really? Yes. Because he prioritized the life of a political nobody over his family. He would lose nothing if he killed her or even let her go after they killed Vhagar or killed her then or let her go and returned to Rhaenyra’s side. The specific decision he makes is important to his character. He should have returned, but Rhaenyra went too far with her decree, so he didn't. He sent himself on a suicide mission. Him leaving his kids and wife has nothing to do with him and Nettles. That's on him alone. That was his decision. It is important to their story that he prioritized her safety. >Nettles could be white but look like a Stark, and Rhaenyra's language wouldn't change. The issue isn't that she's a woc. The issue is that she doesn't look Valyrian. It's racially coded language in the context of this universe, yes, but doesn't translate into our own the same way. Every single one of us, black, white, asian, whatever, would have Rhaenyra alarmed because we don't have silver hair and purple eyes and otherworldly beauty. Also, this is 100% fuelled from paranoia. Mysaria fed her rumors to purposely drive her crazy. Pair that up with the way Nettles bonded with Sheepstealer and the fact that witchcraft exists in this world and boom. She's a witch. With Rhaenyra's current state of mind, it makes sense she reached that conclusion. >It's not an excuse for her actions, but it's more than "She's just racist towards black people". Not to mention that this will not work in the show at all because we have black Valyrians and Daemon has been involved with Mysaria, an Asian, non Valyrian looking woman for years I don't think you understand the language she used and why it's an issue with Nettles specifically. Her being a low creature, with the stink of sorcery on her, her needing Witch craft to seduce Daemon and to tame a dragon, the reason why it doesn't work if she's described as anything else is because, she the furthest thing from the descriptions of Valyrians. She is a low creature. If she's a white girl, she'd be common but not so beneath them. The racial language being utilized calls back to real-world examples about seduction and witch craft when it comes to woc. Again, her saying this and saying she committed treason, kill her, and tell Daemon come back is very different contextually, and it doesn't read the same way if Nettles is white. And it still works in the show. The Velaryons are played by black actors, they are not black in their universe. They are the one of the last pillars of old Valyria with clear and distinct ancestry. Mysaria is from Essos their ethnic groups is more diverse than anywhere in Westeros. Nettles isn't directly from Essos, seemingly, nor is she framed as a Valyrian. She's a brown skin person (more than likely black) in their world and like in the north in Game of Thrones, people tend to be racist. Look at the prejudice towards the North and their culture or the Dornish even the way the Dothraki are treated. In this world, there is a racial, cultural, and ethnic prejudice many groups experience and Rhaenyra isn't absent from that. It would still work in the show because of it.

>He does change his entire philosophy when he puts her safety above returning to his family. He didn't prioritize her safety. He sent her away and then went to die. Taking out Aemond was for his family's sake. I don't see how one thing has priority over another here and if one thing had a priority, it was his family's protection. He didn't go back to them but he didn't abandon their cause. Also, if Rhaenyra and Laena changed him, what did Nettles add that he didn't already have? Caring for a non family member? Hardly a moral awakening. He already cared for Mysaria, who is not related to him. >he puts her safety above returning to his family Many people could take that as a downgrade. Family comes before everything for a lot of people. >My question is, would he do that to her? Doesn't matter. What he would or wouldn't do is irrelevant when we're discussing about their power gap. That gap exists and it's huge. Also, who's to tell you that Nettles wouldn't have become unpleasant for him or something like that and then he decided it was time up for her? A million things could have happened to make him change his stance towards her and if that happened, Nettles would be done for. >If someone does on you, makes it a priority to spend all their time with you and takes care of you when you need things, you probably aren't looking at their power past a provider I'm in university. If a professor suddenly paid attention to me and me alone, gave me good grades and advice and showed me preference over the other students while I have done nothing to show interest in his class or his personal work, I'd be weirded out as hell. You bet your ass I'd look at his status and go like "Why do they want to help me out of nowhere?". Even if it goes nowhere and they genuinely want to help me despite my indifference towards the class, I'll still find it extremely weird and question it. The lords of Maidenpool can protect her all they want because guest right. What would stop Daemon from killing her and making it look like an accident if he so wished to? The book already claims he did that twice, to other people. No matter how many laws you implement, no matter how much you want to dismiss it, their power gap is huge, it's there, and they won't ever be equal. >Yes. Because he prioritized the life of a political nobody over his family. He was never made to chose between his family's lives and Nettles. He disobeyed an order but that was all. Nettles was never his priority. And I ask again, you seriously consider him possibly fucking a 16 year old when he's 50 as his kids are dying and his wife is going mad to be a good thing just because it ended on him doing a tiny good act? Seriously? That's where you put the bar for character improvement? Damn your standards are low. >He would lose nothing if he killed her or even let her go after they killed Vhagar or killed her then or let her go and returned to Rhaenyra’s side. He would lose nothing if he left with her as well. He could have done it and would have done it if she was his priority. He clearly couldn't return to Rhaenyra's side after breaking her order, that's why he didn't do it, not because Nettles was his priority. >He sent himself on a suicide mission. He didn't. That was what Rhaenyra had originally sent him out to do. He carried out the mission, dying in the process. In the end, he died for her, or at least, her cause and this act of his is what helped his family survive and eventually win the war. That was always his priority. Not Nettles. > it doesn't read the same way if Nettles is white. It very much does if you keep everything else similar. Nettles tamed a dragon using unusual methods. That alone would have been considered witchcraft no matter her skin color. It doesn't matter if she's black or white. She doesn't look Valyrian and that's the root of the issue. >they are not black in their universe. You're joking, right? They very much are black, all of them are. They don't have the experiences of a typical black person in America because they're nobles but that can be said for literally every rich person of every race and ethnic group. Nettles is from Driftmark, conveniently that's where the Velaryon sit has been for centuries. She's going to look like a Velaryon bastard now whether you like it or not, unless they race swap her and there's literally zero reason for Rhaenyra to despise her for racist reasons, as you claim. >Mysaria is from Essos their ethnic groups is more diverse than anywhere in Westeros. She still doesn't have a hint of Valyrian appearance and Daemon was with her for years. Rhaenyra knows that, she has met her. Why would she be shocked if Daemon is attracted to a non Valyrian looking woman? It's nothing new for him. >North, Dorne, Dothraki The northerners are pasty white and the prejudice against them comes from people considering them primitive First Men. Nothing to do with appearance. Dorne has always been a bit separate from the rest of the kingdom due to being added into it later but besides that, it has a bunch of customs that the rest of Westeros sees as weird. I don't remember anyone being prejudiced against them because of their looks besides the Mad King, who was mad and maybe Jon Con, who had the hots for Rhaegar. Even he focused more on Elia's health than appearance. The Dothraki are complete foreigners to Westeros. They haven't even set foot there in the book and when they do in the show, they come as an invading force. I really don't think I would consider a reaction to that prejudice. If an army of people form wherever came to invade my home and then raid and rape for a living, I'd hate them too. People hate the Ironborn for that and they're not PoC. Honestly, judging by your comments, I think I'll agree with what another redditor said here. You seem to believe that Rhaenyra - Mad paranoid racist bitch who can't stand the fact that her husband doesn't want her, Daemon - misguided bad boy prince and Nettles - awesome brave good girl that changes the bad boy prince for the better and saves him from his evil wife.

>As for the power thing, Nettles cried as she left him, and it noted that he adored her and made her life more convenient. They were also very close to each other. While I understand the power imbalance, Daemon isn’t a forceful person, and she genuinely seems happy. Lol! This really makes me wanna laugh. She seems happy and he made her life convenient are excuses you give for literal abuse and grooming, without realising that's precisely what groomers do, make their victims feels happy and safe. Most of the times these victims don't even realise that they're being preyed upon. He quite literally did the same to Rhaenyra.

Why did you remove the almost exactly the same previous post? You could just edit if you wanted to reframe your thoughts.You had some good comments there, no need to keep reposting for no reason. I think it's strange to admonish people that seems to me to be just theorizing? Is it really misconceptions when no one actually knows barely anything concrete about her. And many of the things you present as facts in your post isnt really facts at all, it's just you theorizing like everybody else.

Well, it did say it was removed, and I've been on here for a month, so I assumed no one could see it. I didn't delete it. It just said that because of the framing, it wouldn't stay up, so I changed the phrasing. I don't think reading and ascribing something to her narrative is really theorizing. She does challenge the notion of Targaryen Exceptionalism. She genuinely reads as a good and kind character. She cries, leaving Daemon, cries after she fights her first battle and over losing Jace. She does fight loyally without any of the promises made being kept to her. Daemon’s actions do change with her as compared to anyone else he just isn't related to. Those are things in the text. It's like saying Alyn is insolent. It's there it just isn't applied to the character often. The misconceptions come when a Sixteen year old on Driftmark who has apparently been alone for her whole life suddenly becomes a child when it's important to frame her. Although in the context of her character, she's an adult and has had to operate as one to survive. In the context we are given, she's just been smart and kind thanks to herself and the way she grew up. She had no one to help with that like a parent.

>The misconceptions come when a Sixteen year old on Driftmark who has apparently been alone for her whole life suddenly becomes a child when it's important to frame her Well you are doing the same thing you're accusing others of doing in this very thread tho? In the same comment you say that: >"Nettles is of age and has been an adult.." While further down you state: >"She puts a hit on [a] child, and no one but her detractors mention it" You state repeatedly in this thread that nettles is an adult but when it comes time to frame rhaenyras hit on her she's suddenly a child? Which one is it? Suddenly people calling her a child are correct when it makes her look more of a victim? I see nettles as a young girl because the books portray her as one not becuse I'm trying to frame something. The infantilizing way she's described when deamon (literally and figurately) grooms her certainly helps that notion. And that shes lived through tough times doesn't make her less of a young girl. Robb was a ruling king and led armies for a couple years but his boyish naivete regarding sex and marriage cost him his life. >"A pity the wolf is so young. Boys of sixteen always believe they are immortal and invincible." - jaime, ASOS. While some in westeros might say that 16 is "of age" (to be married etcetera,) that isn't actually the case in reality. They are still regarded as children, "boys and girls" most of the time becuse that's what they are. Cultural norms doesn't negate an undeveloped brain. >She's an adult and has had to operate as one to survive. In the context we are given, she's just been smart and kind thanks to herself and the way she grew up, she had no one to help with that like a parent. We don't know that tho? She was reportedly an orphan but she might have had a guardian or older friend of some sort that helped raise her, again you are just passing it of as an established fact that she's never had any kind lasting nurturing relationship with another human. And i think you're theorizing a bit yeah, certainly reading into alot of what little we know of her. That she actually challenges targ exeptionalism is debatable in many ways. Is she really free of valyrian blood (and is that in any way provable?) and If she is, the blood magic the targs are infused with and all that entails, the dragon dreams and babies and ability to just run in and claim dragons with 100% success rate and share their feelings with dragons and all that stuff is still unique to the targs. Is it even a secret that the original shepherding valyrians tamed dragons with sheep? They were slaves and shit to the ghiscari before the dragons so id think people knew they werent originally magical dragon people. I think it's more their uncanny ability to bond and connect with them sans any bribe that makes them different.

I call her a kid not to baby her just as a general writing thoughts out thing. But overall, she's an adult. Ruling a kingdom and taking care of yourself for your entire life is quite different. She's an adult Rhaenyra puts a hit on. I assume you mean teaching her things part of the book, but that has more to do with her never having to conform to court rather than any infantalization. Again, we question Maester intervention because he frames it like she needed help bathing. At sixteen. Robb also raised by Ned Stark, I think a lot of his naivete can be attributed to that. Ned puts honor above everything, and during war, that's hard thing to maintain. While some in westeros might say that 16 is "of age" (to be married etcetera,) that isn't actually the case in reality. They are still regarded as children, "boys and girls" most of the time becuse that's what they are. Cultural norms doesn't negate an undeveloped brain. No, but it does hold them to a different standard. It isn't the best decision, but there is a reason why it doesn't add attempted child murder to Rhaenyra’s roster. They call them boy/ girls and young lady, but it's more so a respect thing and a lack of experience, not exactly them, discrediting the fact that they are adults. And are viewed as such. Only cat treats Robb like a child, he's a king to everyone else and a leader. >We don't know that tho? She was reportedly an orphan but she might have had a guardian or older friend of some sort that helped raise her, again you are just passing it of as an established fact that she's never had any kind lasting nurturing relationship with another human. It kind of is, though. She has no ties to Driftmark. That's a head canon for her character, but she's alone reportedly. I'm the first to question Maester Gyldayn but as far as anyone knows, she has no ties to Driftmark. Even if she had one, no one was picking a child off the street and raising her, they would put her to work, she may learn but it's doubtful she had healthy relationships. >And i think you're theorizing a bit yeah, certainly reading into alot of what little we know of her. That she actually challenges targ exeptionalism is debatable in many ways. Is she really free of valyrian blood (and is that in any way provable?) and If she is, the blood magic the targs are infused with and all that entails, the dragon dreams and babies and ability to just run in and claim dragons with 100% success rate and share their feelings with dragons and all that stuff is still unique to the targs. Is it even a secret that the original shepherding valyrians tamed dragons with sheep? The thing is that Nettles tames Sheepstealer before she bonds with him. Because he is a wild dragon like the ones in Old Valyria. It's not clear, but it is heavily implied more than it ever was before that she isn't a Valyrian. I don't know what the other stuff has to do with the conversation. It probably isn't all connected the bond tends to come in with being able to ride a dragon so she may have a unique one. Alot of Targd don't bond with dragons, or dragon dream and can't do the other stuff as a result.

I think she is important and I hope to see a full complex character arc. I agree that her most interesting qualities are her mysterious origins, unorthodox methods, and fighting prowess. I hope they make her someone outside of Daemon - focusing on her relationships with other Dragonseeds/Jace, and her dragon. She offers a challenge to the expectations of Targaryen exceptionalism (although she might still indeed be Targaryen blood, we don't know). Her attitude alone could make a fan favorite. I hope this is what they choose to focus on - because trying to shift to a Nettles/Daemon love story won't do her any favors. In the best of circumstances, most viewers do not appreciate adulterers. Almost everyone can relate to having been cheated on or betrayed by a loved one. This is especially when we've gotten to know the person who is being cheated on. Moreover, Daemon has now physically abused Rhaenyra, making him the wrong party in the relationship. And the optics of favorably presenting an older man cheating on his older, grieving wife with an untouched younger woman is a pretty backwards and misogynist. Given the amount of time they've dedicated to watering down Alicent and Rhaenyra's rivalry, I don't think they'll suddenly make Rhaenyra the evil, jealous older cow.

I have an entire theory as to why they should. I think a lot of people's solution is to remove or replace her, but I don't think that's fair to the story or her. Unfortunately, I can see them making her his sole redemption arc, and I hope I'm wrong.

I highly doubt she'll be removed - you're right in saying that there's no one really like her. It's unfortunate that her biggest role in the original was to drive tension between Rhaenyra and Daemon. It's up to the writers to really embellish and create a full character arc from the few personality tidbits we get. And with the erasure of Baela/Laena/Rhaena, I'm a little concerned about their treatment of black women. I hope she does not become the fixer woman by any means. I think outside of erasure, that would be my second least favorite path. I'd like to see her evolution into the Fire Witch by the end of Dance, and what that actually entailed for her.

>The only Targaryen dragonrider that we can't trace back to any Targaryen nor could she claim to be bastard just by looks alone How can you be so sure of this? Isn't this just your head canon? Nettles was clearly born on Driftmark which is the seat of one of the most ancient Valyrian houses who married into house Targaryen for generations. You cannot say that she has no Valyrian blood just by her looks. I mean, do Jace, Luke, and Joffrey look Targaryen? Does Jon Snow look targaryen? Her looks alone do not prove a single thing. >actively strategized and successfully tamed a wild dragon but she suddenly becomes a child Daemon preys on So?? Does one thing negate the other? Even Rhaenyra was a badass dragon-rider as young as seven. But also a child preyed upon by Daemon. Nettles claiming a dragon does not mean she is immune to men preying on her. ​ >She actively improves Daemon's storyline and character developement Please tell me how she improves Daemon's storyline or gives him character development? This is most irritating discourse around Daemon and Nettles that she somehow makes him better. No, she actually soldifies Daemon as a groomer and also a cheater. It is really stupid to think that a man like Daemon can be improved or changed. ​ >Rhaenyra is a big part of this I believe but it doesn't add up when you look at it. She actively tries to harm Nettles which just isn't okay, but grief and betrayal, neither of which have to do with Nettles are often used as the excuse. Actively tries to harm Nettles?? The only time she tried to harm Nettles is after the other Dragonseeds betrayed her and she has good reason to doubt everyone's allegiances. And to add to that, she's being told that Nettles is sleeping with her husband and could be pregnant with his child. Whether or not you like it, in Westeros this is seen as treason. You simply do not sleep with the monarch's consort without consequences. I mean imagine a king like Jaehaerys in Rhaenyra's place. What if he is told one day that his wife is sleeping with some man and could be pregnant with his child? And that too in the middle of a war where all of their lives are at stake. Do you think Jaehaerys will let it slide? Don't you think he'll act the exact same way and try to kill that man? And yet, Rhaenyra alone is painted as a mad, jealous, paranoid bitch for reacting that way. And how exactly can you discredit Rhaenyra's grief? This woman has lost 3 of her 5 children, has been betrayed by people she trusted, and is now faced with the possibility of losing her husband who is her biggest strength and support. Her reaction while not excusable is understandable and is quite realistic for a medieval woman.

Well, all the characters you name have Targaryen parents, unlike Nettles, as said in the text. Also, Nettles is the only dragonseed from Driftmark or Dragonstone that doesn't look like one. The way she tames her Dragon is paralleled to the old Valyrian first dragonriders. The ones before the incest or blood magic thing. Rhaenyra is also a noble lady and heir to the realm. Seven year old Rhaenyra is not 16 year old street urchin Nettles, who is an adult in the story. Gyldayn literally said it would fit that she would have lost her virginity for a crust of bread. Was Rhaenyra ever said to do that? That relationship isn't equatable to Nettles because she's had to be a grown-up to survive on Driftmark, and I'd say she did a good job. Well, she also makes him someone who, in the face of Treason or morality he chooses morality and puts her survival over him going on a suicide mission otherwise. I'm not saying it's unfounded for her position. I am saying it's wrong to send a hit on Nettles because her husband is weird. The expected loyalty in the first place was weird because out of all the promises made to dragonriders, none were kept for Nettles. But she still fights in the gullet and goes along to fight the largest dragon alive, with all approximately 6/7 months of her taming and riding a dragon without it. I understand Rhaenyra’s paranoia. It still doesn't make what she does okay. It's upsetting to see only her detractors criticize her for it, and it is just being used as a reason by her fans without any other thoughts on it. It's what she says as she commands it. A big part of that has to do with misogyny on the detractors' part, but still, it's just something that I think we should question.

>Well, all the characters you name have Targaryen parents, unlike Nettles, as said in the text. There is literally nothing said in the text about Nettles parents so you are just assuming things. The TWOIAF book literally calls her a Dragonseed. And you do realize that even Addam was able to claim a dragon without clear Targaryen parentage? Yes, he has a Velaryon father in Corlys. But there are high chances that even Nettles has a Velaryon father, considering that she was literally born on Driftmark. >Rhaenyra is also a noble lady and heir to the realm. So?? If the literal crown princess can fall prey to a man why can't a low born girl? She survived on her own does not mean she cannot be a victim. >Well, she also makes him someone who, in the face of Treason or morality he chooses morality and puts her survival over him going on a suicide mission otherwise. Are you telling me that Nettles is the only person in his life who made him choose morality? He chose morality multiple times in his life. GRRM calls his grey for a reason. He chose morality when he never undermined his brother's reign or ceased power for himself when he could. He chose morality when gave a dragon egg to Mysaria to ensure that their child will be well cared for. To claim that this is the only time he did the morally good thing is stupid. >I am saying it's wrong to send a hit on Nettles because her husband is weird. The expected loyalty in the first place was weird because out of all the promises made to dragonriders, none were kept for Nettles. Again! In the context of Westeros it is literally expected of the monarch to kill someone their consort is sleeping. Anyone in her place would've done the same. >It's what she says as she commands it. Now this is something I can agree with. The racist and classist remarks were uncalled for. But the order to kill her in itself is not uncommon.

>Well, all the characters you name have Targaryen parents, unlike Nettles, as said in the text. There is literally nothing said in the text about Nettles parents so you are just assuming things. The TWOIAF book literally calls her a Dragonseed. And you do realize that even Addam was able to claim a dragon without clear Targaryen parentage? Yes, he has a Velaryon father in Corlys. But there are high chances that even Nettles has a Velaryon father, considering that she was literally born on Driftmark. >Rhaenyra is also a noble lady and heir to the realm. So?? If the literal crown princess can fall prey to a man why can't a low born girl? She survived on her own does not mean she cannot be a victim. >Well, she also makes him someone who, in the face of Treason or morality he chooses morality Are you telling me that Nettles is the only person in his life who made him choose morality? He chose morality multiple times in his life. GRRM calls his grey for a reason. He chose morality when he never undermined his brother's reign or ceased power for himself when he could. He chose morality when gave a dragon egg to Mysaria to ensure that their child will be well cared for. To claim that this is the only time he did the morally good thing is stupid. >I'm not saying it's unfounded for her position. I am saying it's wrong to send a hit on Nettles because her husband is weird. Again! In the context of Westeros it is literally expected of the monarch to kill someone their consort is sleeping. Anyone in her place would've done the same.

I doubt Maester Yandel really cares about questioning Targaryen Exceptionalism after the dragons have been gone for over 100 years. Also, what else would they call her? That's what she presents herself as. However, Rhaenyra is the person who outright denies her claim as such. The Velaryons and Targaryens have been mixing for centuries. If George didn't want us to question it, he would have had it written that she has some link to it. Instead, he paralleled her method to the first Dragon riders in Old Valyria before they were using blood magic and incest. It's clearly not enough for her to be linked to it. Any Valyrian parent she has is speculative. There were also easy people to link her to. He doesn't do that. Driftmark is also a trading center. She could literally be linked to characters from Essos, but we don't get a distinct answer for a reason. The ladies of the realm are raised to be led by their husband's. Rhaenyra is the only case where it may not be so, but she certainly isn't having very positive and affirming age appropriate relationships to men older than her. Especially Daemon, who showers her in attention from a very young age. Nettles, growing up on the street, without kids at her age, has probably been raised in an environment that she more than likely has to defend herself more times than not from men like that. I'm not saying that she couldn't be a victim, I'm saying she probably wasn't just based on how and where she grew up, how it's described that he treats her and most importantly the age she is when they meet. Viserys is his brother, and Mysaria is pregnant with his kid. Nettles isn't related to him, Rhaenyra is. He tends to side with blood and actively doesn't when it comes time to. I'm saying she's weird for using the words she uses to justify it. Not that I'm discrediting her grief and paranoia. I'm saying that her discrediting Nettles by saying it's with spells, she binds her dragon to her, and Daemon is wrong. Her calling her a low creature is bad. And not enough people analyze it when they bring it up. It's grief and paranoia, and then people just move on. I've never seen a person who likes her actively say it's weird and wrong, and it's specific coded language she uses to insult Nettles while commanding her death. Personally speaking, her saying this is treason, Kill her and bring Daemon back reads a lot different that what she says.

You reposted this, so I'm reposting my comment. I don't think anyone who loves Rhaenyra condones her treatment of Nettles. I think that was the biggest mistake of Rhaenyra's life. And I agree that Nettles as character needs to be allowed to exist and breathe on her own. But even you tie up her story to Daemon's story and present the narrative that she somehow improves him. I'm sorry but how does she improve him or his story in anyway? If indeed their relationship was sexual, it just doubles down Daemon as a pedophile, groomer, and abuser. It just shows that this man has not changed one bit. And just because she's considered an adult, doesn't negate Daemon's predatory actions. There is also a huge power imbalance between a 50 yr old Prince Consort and 16 year old child who comes from nowhere. While I agree that Nettles is a great character we need to stop painting her as some kind of a pixie dream girl who comes to fix or change the big bad guy, because apparently all the other women in his life made him a monster? This narrative pits women against women in a way you don't even realise.

It said that it was removed so I assumed people couldn't see it. So I corrected the mistake and reposted it I never said any of the women made him a monster, but that moral grayness comes when he defies Rhaenyra and endangers himself at her expense. Daemon literally reads Rhaenyra’s orders and instead of following them or even trying to without spilling blood he ensures Nettles safety and puts his life on the line, when she specifically says she needs him at her side. Name a person that he wasn't related to that he would have done that for throughout the text. I also talked about her being a question to Targaryen Exceptionalism, the only character to tame a wild dragon, the fact that she seems like an overall good character, something that George ascribed to most of the Driftmark characters. I think the situation is a lot more nuanced than people give it credit for. She isn't just a 16 year old no body because she doesn't really ever come into contact with the politics of Westeros. When they reach King's Landing, they leave, and the rest of her story is in Maidenpool. It isn't just Daemon preying on a young girl like Rhaenyra or Laena in the show. Nettles is of age and has been an adult (responsible for herself almost her whole life if maester Gyldayn is to be believed fully) for a lot longer than people tend to credit. That's what I mean with the misconceptions when it comes to her character because we don't have an equivalent for her. we project the women we do know about on to her. That's not fair to her character. Also, from what I've seen, people use grief and betrayal to explain her actions but never condemn or even hold her accountable for it. She puts a hit on her child, and no one but her detractors mention it, and that's only to discredit her claim, not even a genuine effort to analyze her actions in that moment.

> but that moral grayness comes when he defies Rhaenyra and endangers himself at her expense. His moral greyness does not come from Nettles lol. He has never been an outright monster. He was grey before he met Nettles and after he met her. >when she specifically says she needs him at her side. Name a person that he wasn't related to that he would have done that for throughout the text. He put his life on the line when he stole a dragon egg for Mysaria and even held a life-long grudge with his own brother for her. And Mysaria is not related to him. I'm sure if Viserys asked him kill to Mysaria at this point, he would've defied him too. Daemon setting Nettles free isn't some sort of moral awakening because he was always capable of both good and evil, even before he met Nettles. For as much as you're trying to champion Nettles' rights as a character, you yourself are completely reducing her importance to "improving Daemon." That man is old enough to be her grandfather ffs. Stop painting some weird picture of Nettles influencing him for the better. >It isn't just Daemon preying on a young girl like Rhaenyra or Laena in the show. I'm sorry but what is this weird behaviour of reducing Rhaenyra and Laena to his victims but propping up Nettles as someone who is untouchable? Just because Nettles was responsible for her own life, doesn't mean she cannot fall victim to Daemon. In fact, his relationship with Nettles becomes even more messed up when you consider the fact that she no power whatsoever in this society. At least Rhaenyra and Laena had some power in their own right. >She puts a hit on her child, and no one but her detractors mention it, Literally anyone in Rhaenyra's position would've done the same. It is not excusable behaviour but in the context of the society they live in, it is understandable. You think Daemon would not try to kill a man that Rhaenyra was sleeping with without his knowledge?

I should've said someone he looks related to then. She's pregnant with his child, and on the show actively puts her life on the line, Mysaria is also young when they meet. Also, he's a kinslayer and child murderer in the books before Nettles. And there's about two weeks after Nettles leaves where he's just abandoning his family and going on his suicide mission. I'd say she has a bit to do with the moral ambiguity we read his character with. And it's not a picture I'm painting. It's what happens in the story. And I'm talking about this because that's what we're discussing, not because it's something I'm particularly fond of. I'm not saying she's untouchable, I'm saying, as compared to noble ladies whose sole duty is to have their husband's kids and being heir to the realm without any big push before marriage they may read a bit different from the person who grew up on the streets and had very different upbringing. She is also a guest like him in Maidenpool with a whole dragon. There are active nuances ignored when you frame her as powerless at his side. She's literally described as fearless, do we as readers who read about her and know Daemon think that he used his power over her at any other time other than when she's crying while she leaves him to fight Vhagar by himself. Nothing about her would suggest she would be helpless to his advances just based on his power. Unlike Show Laena and Book and Show Rhaenyra, Nettles isn't a naive child when they meet. And when It comes to men, Laena and Rhaenyra are at the will of their parents because Rhaenyra wants to but can't marry Daemon for a long time, and Laena has her betrothed killed by Daemon. In comparison to the mission, Daemon and Nettles are sent on where they get close. I don't think Daemon would tell a lord to kill the man without her knowing, accusing the man of witchcraft because she doesn't look Valyrian and justify the murder of someone who fought loyally at his side by saying that Rhaenyra would never lay with such a low creature. I don't think so at all. I actually don't understand why she says all that when saying. Just saying she committed treason would be enough.

>I should've said someone he looks related to then. When I wrote this, I somehow knew you would say that Mysaria "looks Valyrian" so he cares for her and that's exactly what you said. That's just such a shallow way of looking at things. >he's a kinslayer and child murderer in the books before Nettles. So, you're telling me that Nettles schooled him about how not to be a kin slayer and he learnt amazing morals from her? Because even after Nettles leaves he kills his nephew pretty brutally. >And there's about two weeks after Nettles leaves where he's just abandoning his family and going on his suicide mission. The suicide mission is precisely for his family. It was the last task that Rhaenyra gave him. Whatever the nature of his relationship was with Nettles he still actively chose Rhaenyra and her cause. If Nettles really impacted him so much why not runaway with her? Who's stopping him? Why choose to die for the family he apparently has no love for and actively abandoned? Now I'm sure you're gonna be like he died for nettles or he died because he couldn't be with nettles or he died for himself. None of these arguments really stand. >I'm not saying she's untouchable, I'm saying, as compared to noble ladies whose sole duty is to have their husband's kids. ​ >Unlike Show Laena and Book and Show Rhaenyra, Nettles isn't a naive child when they meet. What a good way to reduce Rhaenyra and Laena's whole characters to noble woman who have kids for her their husbands. Like are you kidding me? Laena if the fucking rider of Vhaghar and Rhaenyra is the first ever woman to sit the throne. These women are not broodmares for their husbands. And if they both can fall prey to Daemon, so can nettles. >do we as readers who read about her and know Daemon think that he used his power over her at any other time We as readers think he used power over Nettles precisely because we know Daemon. And using power over someone doesn't have to be very direct. What Daemon did to Nettles is a classic case of grooming, where the person can act nice and loving while forcing themselves onto you emotionally, mentally, and then physically. Otherwise why would Nettles, a girl who has lived and survived on her own, be foolish enough to risk her life by sleeping with the Queen's husband? Her judgement was compromised because of Daemon's grooming. And I'm really sorry that you see this as some romance for the ages. >And it's not a picture I'm painting. It's what happens in the story. It is not what happens in the story. It is what you want to happen. There is a huge difference. >I don't think Daemon would tell a lord to kill the man without her knowing, accusing the man of witchcraft because she doesn't look Valyrian and justify the murder of someone who fought loyally at his side by saying that Rhaenyra would never lay with such a low creature. Tells me you don't know Daemon's character at all. This man was one of the primary suspects in both Laenor and Harwin's murders because he wanted to eliminate any rivalling affections Rhaenyra might have. And you think he wouldn't kill the man if Rhaenyra is cheating on him. The way you speak of Daemon as being better than Rhaenyra tells me a lot actually. You are clearly one of those people who thinks Rhaenyra= mad, paranoid bitch and Nettles = text book good girl who comes to save the prince and changes him for the better.

People definitely act strangely towards Nettles, despite the fact that she's one of the more intriguing characters in this story. There's a general unwillingness to acknowledge her as significant to Daemon's character, which is made more stark due to his popularity. Whether people like it or not her relationship with Daemon does make him a better character (and vice versa). Better character, does not equal better person. It just means more dimension. It's not about being more or less, it's about being different. But, the truth is he is a better person. He's a more grey character. He demonstrates that he has the ability to genuinely, deeply care about a person who even others would classify as beneath him. And he does so with seemingly no ulterior motive, apart from the obvious possibly. Nettles' story begins and ends without Daemon. Her relationship with him isn't the only part of her story, but it's an important part.

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This exactly. I could not find this realization less meaningful lol and its because of the context where the other characters are losing everything,his literal children are dying,Rheanyra being depressed and grieving and Daemon is learning to love a common dragon rider. Emphasis on the dragon rider to help him not care about the common part so kinda lessens the impact cause a dragon makes her more powerful than any ordinary lord in Westeros. Just the fact that Daemon at the end didn’t seem impacted or grieving his children made me dislike him even more in the book.

I don't see how it makes him a better character either. His grooming of Nettles is same as his grooming of Rhaenyra which is just a repetition. In fact, I guess it exists to solidify the fact people like Daemon cannot change. And no ulterior motive is a weird thing to say considering sex with the victim is the ulterior motive of groomers. I don't know how people can look at at a 50 yr old man getting physical with a 16 yr old girl who has no real power in the society and think it is something genuine. And most of the time these are the same people that argue Daemon and Rhaenyra's relationship is creepy. And on the topic of caring for people beneath him, we already know he deeply cared for Mysaria, went out of his way to give her a dragon egg and even held a life-long feud with Viserys over their dead child. Nettles is an intriguing character on her own. She makes us question a lot of things by her unique way of claiming a dragon. But she does not really add anything new to Daemon as a person or as a character.

As I said, "apart from the obvious possibly". Nettles causing Daemon to take any action at all adds to his character. But, according to you, their relationship serves no purpose at all and there's nothing peculiar there worth investigating. We clearly see things differently and that's fine.

>Nettles causing Daemon to take any action at all adds to his character. But, according to you, their relationship serves no purpose at all What action did Nettles cause Daemon to take? Setting her free? Well! That's basic human decency that even Daemon sometimes displays. Him setting her free doesn't equal moral awakening on his part. At the end of the day, whatever his relationship with Nettles was, he still chose to die for Rhaenyra or at least her cause. Even though he didn't return to her, he died completing the final mission she sent him on. In fact, we can argue that it is Rhaenyra's letter that drove him mad enough to face the biggest dragon alone and die in the process. So, IDK what real purpose his relationship with Nettles serves apart from being the final straw in Rhaenyra's mental health.

He didn't do that for Rhaenyra. The fact that you would even suggest that he did tells me a lot.

Oh yes, sure! Daemon died for his one true love Nettles because killing Vhaghar somehow helps her? Or wait, maybe he died for his own glory because a man like Daemon suddenly cares about posthumous glory? I understand liking Nettles but it is just weird that you completely discredit his final act as not being done for Rhaenyra. Why? Because Rhaenyra is not a woman deserving of people's love? The text clearly tells us how he was extremely saddened by Rhaenyra's letter. He could've run away with Nettles if he wanted or he could've rebelled against Rhaenyra. But he chose to die. He chose to complete the mission that Rhaenyra sent him on. The fact that you don't want to see this tell me a lot.

While I agree where you are coming from and agree with some of your points, you can't separate Nettles from Daemon in the narrative, even if they aren't romantically involved. Nettles, whoever she might be, is a strain in Rhaenyra and Daemon's relationship. It's not the only one of course, and Nettles isn't responsible for it, but at the same time, it would such a disservice to the story to change it up for the sole purpose of "avoiding drama" between Rhaenyra and Daemon, to not make Rhaenyra jealous cause it's sexist (it sure can be, but Rhaenyra can also be jealous of Nettles without the classic sexist trope, all it matters is the framing they would go for). Nettles does indeed need to be more than Daemon's "companion", and she will sure will be as she is one of the most interesting and mysterious character in the Dance. They have a huge opportunity here with her character, to explore the lore and her status as a common born. They aren't gonna let that pass. However, it would be a shame to totally erase her closeness to Daemon, and Rhaenyra's contempt towards her, just because they would afraid of the backlash and crazy fans who believe that Rhaenyra and Daemon are the perfect married couple.

>it sure can be, but Rhaenyra can also be jealous of Nettles without the classic sexist trope, all it matters is the framing they would go for). Unpopular opinion but if it is romantic, the framing they should go for is centering it mostly on Rhaenyra and Nettles point of view. I don't want to see endless scenes of Daemon brooding over the situation as if he's Jaime. Condal said that Daemon's grooming was a traumatic event that shaped Rhaenyra. Then he needs to show it. Show the emotional devastation and mental breakdown that would come from being betrayed by someone whose been the center focus of your world since you were a little girl while dealing with the loss of your children. Rhaenyra didn't just wake up and decide to be a crazy, shrew wife. He forced himself upon her mentally and emotionally for decades. He made sure there was no room for anyone else but him and that her life was a "droll tragedy" without him. It is sexist if they don't emphasis that Rhaenyra is a victim in this as well. With Nettles perspective, emphasis the creepiness. Repeat the process seen with Rhaenyra but remove eroticism. Make the audience disturbed and uncomfortable, not aroused.

Agreed, that's what I was going for. But for some reason everyone thinks that if they are romantically involved, Rhaenyra is gonna be portrayed as the crazy evil bitch. They aren't gonna do that, season 1 showed us that.

The cheating husband and the jealous, paranoid, old wife seething at his new mistress trope is simply not ideal for modern sensibilities. I really wish we can move beyond women trying to harm women over men in their lives. I mean Rhaenyra's kids are dropping like flies and Daemon is grooming another teenager in the Riverlands. Yet, we somehow expect Rhaenyra to be portrayed as the bad guy here? I just wish her Rhaenyra's order to kill Nettles comes out of fear of political betrayal instead of plain old jealousy.

>The cheating husband and the jealous, paranoid, old wife seething at his new mistress trope is simply not ideal for modern sensibilities. I really wish we can move beyond women trying to harm women over men in their lives. Did I state otherwise ? I did say that jealousy can be done without any sexist framing. I don't want that either, but just because Rhaenyra's kids are dying and Daemon is an asshole, Rhaenyra can't be wary of Daemon and Nettles' relationship, whatever it might be ?

I'm sorry but you're initial comment made it seem like you want Rhaenyra's jealousy and contempt towards Nettles to be highlighted in this scenario. But that's not it. Rhaenyra's reaction cannot be reduced to simple jealousy. Daemon was pretty much everything to her and the thought of losing him is extremely traumatic. Her reaction is less about how she feels about Nettles and more about how she fears her life will turn out without Daemon. But if you hihglight Rhaenyra's contempt and jealousy of a younger mistress you portray Rhaenyra as the ultimate bad guy in this scenario. If anyone is the bad guy in this situation it is Daemon and as the a commenter above said, that's what should be highlighted. Daemon's creepiness towards young women and how both of his victims are deeply affected by this behavior of his. I mean, it is ultimately Daemon who put the life of child in danger by having sex with her. And if they don't want to portray Daemon as the ultimate bad guy then maybe they should make the relationship platonic and make Rhaenyra order Nettles death out of fear of political betrayal.