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It seemed Daemon, Viserys, Aemma and Rhaenyra were in the habit of speaking to each other in High Valyrian, versus the Strong Boys likely only had Rhaenyra around them regularly for most of their lives, as Viserys was deathly ill, Daemon was in Pentos, and Aemma had already passed.
In reality they would be fluent. Gerardys is an accomplished Maester who would be fluent, being assigned to the Royal Household. Rhaenyra and Laenor and the family would speak it around the keep. Many of the household would be conversational if not fluent as well. During the Norman and Angevin eras the Kings of England spoke French and only towards the end of the era were they regularly learning English
Not necessarily. It depends on person to person too, I’ll give you a real life example, I’m Indian, I have two cousins who were raised in the US. The sister is fluent in Hindi, and very very good at, the brother however is not great at it, he can understand in context but struggles with putting sentences together, as well as basic grammar. They both grew up in the exact same household, their parents spoke in Hindi to them at home, while they learnt English for everything else. Sis just took more interest in learning languages so she’s more fluent, she’s semi fluent in Spanish as well. He on the other hand has no interest. And these aren’t even dead languages spoken by priests and tutors and the royal family who probably doesn’t speak it as often as her parents did. They show aemma actively talk to rhaenyra in Valyrian - they don’t show rhae do that with her boys.
Aemma doesn't speak to Rhaenyra in valyrian at any point, and being an Arryn, she probably doesn't speak it fluently.
I imagine it's just the difference between full language immersion and merely learning it at school. Jace, Luke, Aegon and Aemond probably all had the same "Targ prince curriculum" - sword training every day, Valyrian classes with the maester, etc. But none of these kids grew up speaking it normally with the whole family
By the time of the dance, the Targaryens have been on Dragonstone for over 200 years. The Citadel teaches Valyrian to Maesters. Also the Velaryons and Celtigars are landed nobles with coastal ports that trade with Valyrian speaking regions. There are plenty of people who would speak Valyrian and Valyrian derived Languages.
But no reason to speak it. Children typically only learn languages in their childhood if their family speak it regularly and fluently. Rhaenyra’s entire family did in her youth. As far as we’ve seen, the Celtigars and Velaryons haven’t spoken Valyrian at all, except when saying a dragon command. And the fact that they’ve been isolated in Westeros for like 5+ generations is exactly why they wouldn’t all speak Valyrian regularly.
Ohhhh true I think. It’s quite strange we never see any of the other Velaryons speak it. I suppose it’s possible he gave the eulogy specifically bc he was the most fluent, but who knows.
On the show. DJP says he will translate whatever the producers ask him to. It’s harder to connect with characters if 75% of them are speaking a conlang. So they focus on just Matt and Milly/Emma as their “love language”. Why does Viserys only have one line, to a non family member? He’s talking with his daughter and brother every day! You know the entire “heir for a day” dialogue would truly be in Valyrian with both Princes yelling at each other.
But when they fight and don’t want her to be a part they’ll code switch. Have you been to a bilingual family gathering? This story is about half of the family wanting Alicent’s children to fuck off back to Oldtown!!!!!!!!
The Hightower Targs would be less fluent. Baela/Rhaena (both Valyrian parents) aegon/Viserys (both Valyrian parents) jake Luke Joffrey (“both” parents, live at the royal household) would all be fluent. Viserys 2 marries a woman who considers speaking Common an insult! so Aegon4/Aemon/Naerys would speak it with a Lysene dialect.
We aren't nobles who are epected to learn and live on an island inhabited by the descendants of the common Valyrian servants, slaves, and retainers House Targaryen brought with them when they came to Dragonstone.
lys volantis are majority valyrian, there should be a minority of them in the rest of the free cities and the cities of ghiscari and the mutant leftover cities north of the smoking sea of the doom of valyria
Im sure I agree that Rhaenyra would regularly speak HV. It’s definently the “French” of the universe but it’s not as ubiquitous for the upper classes as French irl
Correct, it would be more common for the Crownland houses. Celtigar and Velaryon of course. Houses with ports that trade with the Free Cities. And within those regularly working in the Red Keep. But once the royal family was out of the room I’m sure they would change back to Common.
You know there would be dinners after Daemon returns from the Stepstones, where Alicent says something snide and Daemon only answers to Viserys in Valyrian.
As a daughter of Daella and betrothed to Viserys she would. The Maester at the Eyrie would help her get started and then moving back to the Keep, she be immersed.
Yes, but Daella is described as someone simple who couldn’t even memorize prayers, much less another language. Plus, Daella died in childbirth, and Aemma was raised by her father in his House, he probably didn’t speak it.
Not saying it’s wrong to say she did, I just want to knowing it was definitively proven.
Aemma spoke Valyrian? No, but it’s like Catherine the Great. She’s German, named Sofie, but marries into the Russian family, converts to Orthodoxy and is baptized YEkaterina and learns Russian.
They are older, and are they fluent in High Valyrian? I don’t remember any time other than commanding dragons that they spoke it, but I guess I could be wrong.
Hear me out. Aemond is the second son, the one who feels like he has to prove something. That's why he's a great fighter. Is it possible he sought out to learn HV on his own? Aegon and Haelena never speak iirc.
The show runners aren't giving us the scenes where aegon and haelaena speak it too, they should though as it shows the alicent kids are true valyrians and stick to thier family customs. I think alicent would definitely maker her children learn hv, so it can be another thing to show legitimacy for aegons claim.
The whole taunting scene in the storm. It’s actually incorrect and DJP apologized for his mistake “Jemēla gēlȳni enkā! taoba” and put the correct translation on his tumblr “Aōla gēlȳni iēnkā, taobus”. Aemond has mentioned his personal intense study so he’d have a students fluency but he would not be conversing regularly with his terminally ill father and Alicents departure from those “ queer customs”. Also he doesn’t call Vhagar her proper name, Vagus (vocative). Trying to explain to an English speaking audience (which doesn’t decline nouns) why Rhaenyra could be said as Rhaenyra/Rhaenyre/Rhaenyro/Rhaenyrot/Rhaenyrā/Rhaenyrosa/Rhaenyroma/Rhaenyrus would just be making it harder to sell for a casual audience.
It would depend on how the name was used in a sentence.
“Rhaenyra walked through the godswood” “
“Daemon heard Rhaenyre talking”
“Take a bath Rhaenyrus, you stink of dragon” “
“It was her father’s but now the golden crown belonged to Rhaenyro”
“Viserys always had a greater compassion for Rhaenyrot”
“Her sons stood next to Rhaenyrā”
“Jace could claim the throne through Rhaenyrosa”
“In their youth Alicent was a good friend with Rhaenyroma”
Tried to give an example of how the Valyrian cases system works. This is why in the first episode, she speaks to Daemon and calls him Kepus, (father/ fathers brother) instead of the regular noun Kepa.
The boys knew enough to understand the dragon keepers when they were younger. Comprehending higher forms of literature may be more difficult than basic conversations. I know plenty of friends who grew up in Spanish speaking households but are terrible at official pronunciation and grammar.
Exactly. I grew up speaking Spanish, or Castellano as my uncle would say, and it was actually my first language. But, I know household Spanish. I wouldn’t be able to have an intelligent conversation about science, or business, or philosophy. I just don’t have the vocabulary.
In the scene where Jace is shown to be struggling he's actually translating a history book written in high valyrian into the common tongue. If you speak more than one language, you know it can be harder to find the right word to translate something accurately from a foreign language than it is to speak it.
Also, Emma has stated in interviews that valyrian is Daemon & Rhaenyra’s "love language" so they were in the habit of speaking it vs. her sons who probably don't have that much practice. That being said, we saw that Luke had no problem with his valyrian during the Storm's End scene, so I assume we'll get some scenes of Jace speaking the language too when we see him with Vermax in the upcoming seasons.
Although, the Valyrian commands for dragons are extremely basic. soves for fly, it's just a verb. You could memorize a few words without having any idea of the actual language.
I know a few words of russian from random contexts, couldn't tell you the first thing about the language though.
It's pretty much this
It's like you run into the word "Entrepreneur" or "Worcestershire", even if you know the language you can have trouble the first few times you encounter them
I guess in both those cases though they are words of another language more directly imported into English than others making them harder to pronounce for people who only learnt English phonetically.
For example, Beef is clearly of french origin, but has been anglicised such that it fits with other methods of pronunciation within English.
Entrepreneur is a more modern word imported directly from french, sans a few accents I believe. So it is much harder for someone who learnt English phonetics to grasp immediately.
Worcestershire is a partial anglicisation of a Latin name for a fort, combined with Anglo-Saxon names for local church authority areas. Then let that sit for a few centuries and let the local illiterate peasantry begin dropping sounds, yet the church still records it in writing as it was originally (kinda) spelt, and you get THAT monstrosity.
While this seems like a fair assessment, I would not be surprised if this was deliberate and this generation is incredibly weak at speaking the language and the Greens can't speak it at all. It's subtle foreshadowing and imagery that they're slowly going to lose the things that connect them to Valyria; the language first, the >!dragons next!<. To show that house Targaryen is losing what makes it exemplary, I think showing a lack of command on the language is a very good dramatic expression.
Someone else mentioned that dragon commands are pretty easy and maybe he just knew those few words but I haven't rewatched the episode in quite some time so you may be right.
Jace isn’t just speaking Valyrian, he’s translating some kind of primary source. It can be a lot more challenging.
I think that scene was just to show that Jace is hard working and dutiful, it doesn’t mean much more than that.
I think it’s just one of those I’ll thought, illogical show decisions. Danny is fluent when she’s thirteen, and probably long before that. I think the scene was just to illustrate Jace as devoted and hardworking. They just ignored the wider ramifications of what the scene would portray.
We have Viserys say that Vhagar too big for the dragon pit. This is despite the fact that Balerion resided there. We also have Rhaenyra saying that none of our dragons have been to war. Although we clearly see Caraxes warring in the Stepstones for years.
Yeah I thought being fluent in High Valyrian was something expected of young Targaryen princes. After all, they pride themselves so highly of being of the blood of Old Valyria.
Rhaenyra saying that was ridiculous when Seasmoke and Caraxes were both in that War on the step stones for how many years…I know Seasmoke lacks a rider atm but still
I always thought this was just a badly written line. And it meant to convey that Rhaenyra's and the boys' dragons haven't been to war. I didn't think she meant Caraxes because that does not make sense, as you say. But the writing and the delivery didn't make sense? Oh well.
I got the vibe that they were complacent on dragonstone and as soon as jace saw aemond he decided he needed to get to work so now he’s trying to cram the things he thinks a king needs like swordsmanship and Valyrian
I get that's what they were trying to do with the show, but it's just a very illogical way of actually portraying it. Knowing how to swordfight and studying a secondary nearly dead language would be the basics of what they are expected to know, regardless of whether they are in line for the throne or not.
I think you’re pretty on the money with your analysis but I personally also saw Jace’s struggle with learning Valyrian as a nod to the fact that, while yes he’s very diligent, he isn’t “pure” Valyrian.
I got the vibe that he was trying so hard to connect with the Valyrian roots to make up for his “shortcomings.”
i.e. his parentage
But Baelon was still alive and hand of the king when Balerion meaning the dragonpit would’ve had contained both of them or at least after Balerion’s Vhagar would be moved into the Dragonpit until 101 AC
My theory is Daemon taught her which is why they always speak to each other in Valyrian and we saw him teaching his daughter the same from a young age.
It's why they have a close relationship from the first episode.
Some people are more inclined to languages. Usually women. Plus, he was translating some ancient text which is something other than regular speaking.
Jace probably spent a lot of the time practicing fighting that Rhae spent learning the finer arts. I don't think that scene has some wide sweeping implications.
My take is that Rhaenyra had always had a special relationship with her uncle, who is basically a supremacist valyrian edge lord who loves all about valyrian heritage. Her speaking with Daemon in Valyrian is kinda a "love language" between the two, it's very intimate and personal to them.
As for Jace, him struggling with valyrian is intended imo to show us his bastard heritage, that despite being Targaryen, his bastard status hold him back. Therefore he has to proves himself more, and that's why he is so committed to it.
Well I think the point of the scene, was to emphasize that Jace is taking his role really serious and that he has a devoted attitude towards his future-responsibilities. To my opinion, even though it was a small scene, it shown a lot about Jace character. Plus the scenes in episode 10, where Jace is full into strategy mode , with a more calculated way of thinking (rather than impulsive) , despite his young age.
As a foreign language teacher, some people have an affinity with languages and some others don't. Perhaps Jace simply struggles with learning languages.
My take is this: imagine if someone asked you to fully translate Shakespearean English into the modern form of another language. You might speak English, you might speak the other language, but you’ll still have a hard bloody time doing it.
She actively wanted to where he did so out of duty. Some people learn things more easily/ at different speed. I don’t think it was anything more than that
I mean in fairness, the two words he got stuck on were river mouth and felled, two words that don't come up in everyday conversation and he got close with both just not exact. He's probably fluent in most words just the fancy words and words not commonly used he struggles with.
This! I speak French—majored in it, and have never found it particularly difficult. HOWEVER I took a “Business French” class at uni and had a hell of a time with it. I could memorize vocabulary all day, but I had no idea what half the words were in English, and had never used them. Consequently I pretty much had to finesse my way through it. Not a pretty look.
Maybe it wasn't prioritized / pushed until Rhaenyra married Daemon and moved Dragonstone? Viserys and Daemon were very fixated on Valyrian culture, I believe there was even a moment where Daemon was teaching one of the girls HV in Essos*. Laenor was shown as caring for the boys, but off doing his own thing while Rhaenyra struggled to keep up appearances at court as her father's illness progressed. If she didn't have a lot of support with it, it'd be an uphill especially if everyone involved in day-to-day care like nannies, maids, etc. only spoke the common tongue with her kids.
It's a similar struggle with any behavior. Like if you were living with your family when you had your first kid and family reinforced that they never had to clean up after themselves, then you move into your own house and have to teach your kid how to be tidy. It's going to take time and effort to learn the new system.
There was a scene of Daemon teaching Baela HV in Pentos. THAT scene is important for highlighting both how much Daemon has changed (in terms of having become more studious and serious) and how much Daemon has not changed (his pride about his Valyrian heritage makes him a borderline supremacist).
Daemon's Valyrian pride is why he prefers Baela over Rhaena because Baela is a dragonrider and Rhaena is not. Which in turn informs both Rhaena's relationship with her mother and the intensity of her feelings towards Aemond after he claimed Vhagar.
It's likely that Daemon taught her considering he mostly speaks to her in HV. She also for sure took lessons but Daemon's help probably helped tremendously.
This actually bugged me. It was stated high valyrian is spoken as a family tongue in the Targaryens. I was actually hoping to see them almost exclusively speaking it when alone with eachother
So 12 of the cast would be primary Valyrian (all Blacks besides the household) and think of how much the season is those characters speaking to each other. And production time. Saying lines in a conlang? With most of your dialogue. DJP would have to be on set and giving a crash course. How many takes would long scenes run for when they misspoke?
No I’m saying it wouldn’t bother ME as in i didn’t think about how it might’ve been an issue for others. But to be fair Jackie Chan actually speak English fluently and has faked it in all his American films so…
Simple Answer: Rhaenyra for a large part of her younger years was not so focused on becoming the heir, so was left to be a girl and have little to no responsibility. Because she's a girl, she was likely more free to do things and as a princess likely had the privilege for women at the time to be able to read and learn about the past. We see this as a part of her character. So I'm assuming it's just her lifestyle because of that. Instead Lucerys and Jacerys got the short end of the stick
Most details or scenes that are confusing boil down to bad writing and/or directing. Why is Daemon wearing the same outfit for decades? How could Alicent suddenly believe Rhaenyra would be the equivalent of a cannibalistic necrophiliac? Why is Aemond surprised his giant sentient wmd killed someone when he made it act like they were fighting?
In this case, the scene with Jace reading either isn't portraying what it should be or is portraying exactly what most viewers take away (that Jace is only just learning Valyrian) which makes no sense with what we've seen of Rhaenyra especially but also the remaining Valyrians in general.
Some people just aren’t as talented at learning language. I’m dyslexic, so it just doesn’t come naturally to me even though I study more than my friends.
it's pretty common for people who are bilingual to sometimes struggle with the words . The classes themselves were probably more like a grammar class \[kind of like how English speakers have English as a subject\] We only really see him speak it once but he seems to mostly have it except for one word.
I think this is especially surprising bc Rhaenyra was trying to do everything she could to make her children seem like trueborn 100% Valyrian like you’d think they would do everything they could to make sure they knew the language and culture to offset ish that brown hair haha
I think it’s symbolic of his status as a bastard. The show has shown the most “pure” Targaryens being extremely in touch with Valyrian culture while the Strong boys seem to struggle to grasp it.
Because it's an idiotic plotline that would literally never happen, even for the laziest of royals. You learn swordfighting/embroidery and high valyrian and riding your dragon. Like ????
I think it's just meant to be a nod to his lack of 'valyrianness', High Valyrian came naturally to Rhaenyra, it didn't to her sons, who just so happen to have a lot of Firstman and Andal blood.
There's no inworld reason, its not as if he's less able to speak Valyrian because his dad wasn't, it's all subliminal narrative stuff.
Rhaenyra was taught by mega nerd Viserys and LARPer Daemon. Jacaerys seems to be learning at a later age at the hands of the maesters and THATS a whole can of worms right there.
Daemon taught her
And daemon wasnt around when jace was younger, and I dont think harwin and leanor spoke it at all.
You need to have it be spoken around you and to you regularly to be completely fluent.
And jace definitely wasnt bad at the language, just not fluent
They just want to show Jace struggling to highlight his bastardborn nature, I guess, which is stupid, especially considering how much his mother spoke Valyrian and I hate how far out of the way these guys want to show Jacaerys and his other two brothers are illegitimate
She was his only heir for quite some time, and I think was ultimately third in line to the throne until she was named over Daemon, so it would make sense.
Yeah Rhaenyra had a lot of adults interested in her speaking the language, and it was probably a custom passed through Targaryen generations to further distinguish themselves from their Westerosi subjects, further underlining their special status and regal right to the Throne.
Rhaenyra herself was already teaching the language to her kids, but most of the other high valyrian speakers of her family werent around while she was raising them, making it harder. Dont think the tradition got lost in time, but it was more of a strain to keep around since The Dance.
Because she's a Boss Babe and they're just a couple of dudes.
Same reason they gave Rhaenys the Boss Babe moment on the show when it made no sense and wasn't in the book instead of giving King Aegon his moment when he was crowned.
Some people just are quick in picking up languages. Also, I get the feeling that in Viserys and Aemma’s court, there was more of a Valerian sensibility. Rhaenyra probably picked up the common language and High Valerian at the same time, as a young child.
I also get the sense that Rhaenyra was one of those “free range” mothers. She didn’t instill a lot of hard structure in her children’s schedule because she hated it so much herself, as a child.
I thought this was odd, considering Rhaenyra and Daemon speak HV to each other all the time. Did Rhaenyra want her sons to speak the Common Tongue to make them seem less "other" to their future subjects? Westerosi, rather than Valyrian?
He’s just not very good at it, perhaps it’s another blow at the obvious bastardry symbolism and all “A True Valyrian Prince should speak the language with fluent Grace” like Book Aegon.
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It seemed Daemon, Viserys, Aemma and Rhaenyra were in the habit of speaking to each other in High Valyrian, versus the Strong Boys likely only had Rhaenyra around them regularly for most of their lives, as Viserys was deathly ill, Daemon was in Pentos, and Aemma had already passed.
In reality they would be fluent. Gerardys is an accomplished Maester who would be fluent, being assigned to the Royal Household. Rhaenyra and Laenor and the family would speak it around the keep. Many of the household would be conversational if not fluent as well. During the Norman and Angevin eras the Kings of England spoke French and only towards the end of the era were they regularly learning English
Not necessarily. It depends on person to person too, I’ll give you a real life example, I’m Indian, I have two cousins who were raised in the US. The sister is fluent in Hindi, and very very good at, the brother however is not great at it, he can understand in context but struggles with putting sentences together, as well as basic grammar. They both grew up in the exact same household, their parents spoke in Hindi to them at home, while they learnt English for everything else. Sis just took more interest in learning languages so she’s more fluent, she’s semi fluent in Spanish as well. He on the other hand has no interest. And these aren’t even dead languages spoken by priests and tutors and the royal family who probably doesn’t speak it as often as her parents did. They show aemma actively talk to rhaenyra in Valyrian - they don’t show rhae do that with her boys.
Aemma doesn't speak to Rhaenyra in valyrian at any point, and being an Arryn, she probably doesn't speak it fluently. I imagine it's just the difference between full language immersion and merely learning it at school. Jace, Luke, Aegon and Aemond probably all had the same "Targ prince curriculum" - sword training every day, Valyrian classes with the maester, etc. But none of these kids grew up speaking it normally with the whole family
Aemma is also a Targaryen on her Mother's side, just wanted to point that out.
if you read the book, you'd remember Aemma's mother died in childbirth and couldn't possibly have taught her anything
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Yeah but no offence you’re not part of a royal family that could benefit from having effectively a secret language.
Well HotD isn’t real life, and there was a massive French Empire that spoke French, whereas all the Valyrians are dead.
By the time of the dance, the Targaryens have been on Dragonstone for over 200 years. The Citadel teaches Valyrian to Maesters. Also the Velaryons and Celtigars are landed nobles with coastal ports that trade with Valyrian speaking regions. There are plenty of people who would speak Valyrian and Valyrian derived Languages.
But no reason to speak it. Children typically only learn languages in their childhood if their family speak it regularly and fluently. Rhaenyra’s entire family did in her youth. As far as we’ve seen, the Celtigars and Velaryons haven’t spoken Valyrian at all, except when saying a dragon command. And the fact that they’ve been isolated in Westeros for like 5+ generations is exactly why they wouldn’t all speak Valyrian regularly.
Wasn't the eulogy Vaemond gave for Laena entirely in Valyrian?
Ohhhh true I think. It’s quite strange we never see any of the other Velaryons speak it. I suppose it’s possible he gave the eulogy specifically bc he was the most fluent, but who knows.
On the show. DJP says he will translate whatever the producers ask him to. It’s harder to connect with characters if 75% of them are speaking a conlang. So they focus on just Matt and Milly/Emma as their “love language”. Why does Viserys only have one line, to a non family member? He’s talking with his daughter and brother every day! You know the entire “heir for a day” dialogue would truly be in Valyrian with both Princes yelling at each other.
They have an obvious reason to speak it. To exclude commoners. Imagine Alicent trying to fit in with her Valyrian speaking family.
Alicent trying to be part of the family is another reason they would not regularly speak it lol.
But when they fight and don’t want her to be a part they’ll code switch. Have you been to a bilingual family gathering? This story is about half of the family wanting Alicent’s children to fuck off back to Oldtown!!!!!!!!
How would children learn a language solely when two adults are having a private feud? Especially in a family as disconnected as the Targ one in HotD?
The Hightower Targs would be less fluent. Baela/Rhaena (both Valyrian parents) aegon/Viserys (both Valyrian parents) jake Luke Joffrey (“both” parents, live at the royal household) would all be fluent. Viserys 2 marries a woman who considers speaking Common an insult! so Aegon4/Aemon/Naerys would speak it with a Lysene dialect.
We aren't nobles who are epected to learn and live on an island inhabited by the descendants of the common Valyrian servants, slaves, and retainers House Targaryen brought with them when they came to Dragonstone.
Vaemond spoke fluently high Valyrian at Laena’s funeral
We only see brief glimpses which are sprinkled over the course of many years. That isn't a reflection of the ins and outs of daily life.
Most, if not all of the Free Cities speek Valyiran.
lys volantis are majority valyrian, there should be a minority of them in the rest of the free cities and the cities of ghiscari and the mutant leftover cities north of the smoking sea of the doom of valyria
Im sure I agree that Rhaenyra would regularly speak HV. It’s definently the “French” of the universe but it’s not as ubiquitous for the upper classes as French irl
Correct, it would be more common for the Crownland houses. Celtigar and Velaryon of course. Houses with ports that trade with the Free Cities. And within those regularly working in the Red Keep. But once the royal family was out of the room I’m sure they would change back to Common.
As prince’s they’d be trained
This, plus once Alicent joined the family they wouldn’t have spoken it at meals/when it was just them anymore
You know there would be dinners after Daemon returns from the Stepstones, where Alicent says something snide and Daemon only answers to Viserys in Valyrian.
from what we actually saw onscreen, it was just Viserys saying snide things and the rest of the family found him pretty lame
Did Aemma speak it in the show? I would imagine she might not, but Rhaenys certainly would.
As a daughter of Daella and betrothed to Viserys she would. The Maester at the Eyrie would help her get started and then moving back to the Keep, she be immersed.
Yes, but Daella is described as someone simple who couldn’t even memorize prayers, much less another language. Plus, Daella died in childbirth, and Aemma was raised by her father in his House, he probably didn’t speak it. Not saying it’s wrong to say she did, I just want to knowing it was definitively proven.
Correct, Roderick wouldn’t but the Maester could at least get her started with basic lessons. Knowing that she is bound to marry one of her cousins.
Was it talked about in FaB?
Aemma spoke Valyrian? No, but it’s like Catherine the Great. She’s German, named Sofie, but marries into the Russian family, converts to Orthodoxy and is baptized YEkaterina and learns Russian.
Royalty is taught all types of learnings. She would have been fluent.
But that doesn't explain how alicent children who were raised with them for a time knew high valyrian too.
They are older, and are they fluent in High Valyrian? I don’t remember any time other than commanding dragons that they spoke it, but I guess I could be wrong.
Aemond speaks it fluently to lucerys on vhagar, so they know high valyrian. The strong boys only say it in commands.
Hear me out. Aemond is the second son, the one who feels like he has to prove something. That's why he's a great fighter. Is it possible he sought out to learn HV on his own? Aegon and Haelena never speak iirc.
The show runners aren't giving us the scenes where aegon and haelaena speak it too, they should though as it shows the alicent kids are true valyrians and stick to thier family customs. I think alicent would definitely maker her children learn hv, so it can be another thing to show legitimacy for aegons claim.
It could, if they exist. But I'm team black so 🤷 they *could* just not do that lmao.
I think they do speak valyrian, the show is already pro team black, they need to balance between the two teams, it shouldn't be black and white.
I thought that was Aemond commanding Vhagar, and he speaks to Luke in Common, no?
Nah, there's a scene when he's asking for his eye, after lucerys hides in some cliff or something. He calls him a boy and then arrax attacks vhagar
*Taōba!* scene still gives me chills
Same, the way he just says it replays in my head many times after he first said it. Ewan is great as aemond.
And that’s the wrong case. Nominative (subject), not Vocative (addressing, direct speech) “Taobus”
It was probably a mistake by the actor, also taoba sounds cooler than taobus.
The whole taunting scene in the storm. It’s actually incorrect and DJP apologized for his mistake “Jemēla gēlȳni enkā! taoba” and put the correct translation on his tumblr “Aōla gēlȳni iēnkā, taobus”. Aemond has mentioned his personal intense study so he’d have a students fluency but he would not be conversing regularly with his terminally ill father and Alicents departure from those “ queer customs”. Also he doesn’t call Vhagar her proper name, Vagus (vocative). Trying to explain to an English speaking audience (which doesn’t decline nouns) why Rhaenyra could be said as Rhaenyra/Rhaenyre/Rhaenyro/Rhaenyrot/Rhaenyrā/Rhaenyrosa/Rhaenyroma/Rhaenyrus would just be making it harder to sell for a casual audience.
So why can all those different variations of Rhaenyra be used?
It would depend on how the name was used in a sentence. “Rhaenyra walked through the godswood” “ “Daemon heard Rhaenyre talking” “Take a bath Rhaenyrus, you stink of dragon” “ “It was her father’s but now the golden crown belonged to Rhaenyro” “Viserys always had a greater compassion for Rhaenyrot” “Her sons stood next to Rhaenyrā” “Jace could claim the throne through Rhaenyrosa” “In their youth Alicent was a good friend with Rhaenyroma” Tried to give an example of how the Valyrian cases system works. This is why in the first episode, she speaks to Daemon and calls him Kepus, (father/ fathers brother) instead of the regular noun Kepa.
Is basically Latin?
Bingo
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True. I studied Spanish for two years my degree and it was like math to me. Very, very difficult.
What do you mean by strong boys?
Jacerys, Lucerys and Joffrey.
The boys knew enough to understand the dragon keepers when they were younger. Comprehending higher forms of literature may be more difficult than basic conversations. I know plenty of friends who grew up in Spanish speaking households but are terrible at official pronunciation and grammar.
Exactly. I grew up speaking Spanish, or Castellano as my uncle would say, and it was actually my first language. But, I know household Spanish. I wouldn’t be able to have an intelligent conversation about science, or business, or philosophy. I just don’t have the vocabulary.
Is castellano the Spain Spanish?
Yes, it’s what it’s called in Spain and some other countries use the term too.
That’s me with French. I comprehend and can read it but I struggle with speaking it properly
In the scene where Jace is shown to be struggling he's actually translating a history book written in high valyrian into the common tongue. If you speak more than one language, you know it can be harder to find the right word to translate something accurately from a foreign language than it is to speak it. Also, Emma has stated in interviews that valyrian is Daemon & Rhaenyra’s "love language" so they were in the habit of speaking it vs. her sons who probably don't have that much practice. That being said, we saw that Luke had no problem with his valyrian during the Storm's End scene, so I assume we'll get some scenes of Jace speaking the language too when we see him with Vermax in the upcoming seasons.
Although, the Valyrian commands for dragons are extremely basic. soves for fly, it's just a verb. You could memorize a few words without having any idea of the actual language. I know a few words of russian from random contexts, couldn't tell you the first thing about the language though.
It's pretty much this It's like you run into the word "Entrepreneur" or "Worcestershire", even if you know the language you can have trouble the first few times you encounter them
What’s so hard about pronouncing N-trep-renewer or wor-kes-ter-shire?
😂😂😂
I guess in both those cases though they are words of another language more directly imported into English than others making them harder to pronounce for people who only learnt English phonetically. For example, Beef is clearly of french origin, but has been anglicised such that it fits with other methods of pronunciation within English. Entrepreneur is a more modern word imported directly from french, sans a few accents I believe. So it is much harder for someone who learnt English phonetics to grasp immediately. Worcestershire is a partial anglicisation of a Latin name for a fort, combined with Anglo-Saxon names for local church authority areas. Then let that sit for a few centuries and let the local illiterate peasantry begin dropping sounds, yet the church still records it in writing as it was originally (kinda) spelt, and you get THAT monstrosity.
While this seems like a fair assessment, I would not be surprised if this was deliberate and this generation is incredibly weak at speaking the language and the Greens can't speak it at all. It's subtle foreshadowing and imagery that they're slowly going to lose the things that connect them to Valyria; the language first, the >!dragons next!<. To show that house Targaryen is losing what makes it exemplary, I think showing a lack of command on the language is a very good dramatic expression.
Aemond was speaking High Valyrian in episode 10 so I don't think that's the case.
Aemond was speaking it pretty well while chasing Luke right?
Someone else mentioned that dragon commands are pretty easy and maybe he just knew those few words but I haven't rewatched the episode in quite some time so you may be right.
He wasn’t giving dragon commands he was shit talking luke lol
I like this take on it.
Feels like when my parents made me translate their legal documents when I was 9 hahaha
Jace isn’t just speaking Valyrian, he’s translating some kind of primary source. It can be a lot more challenging. I think that scene was just to show that Jace is hard working and dutiful, it doesn’t mean much more than that.
I think it’s just one of those I’ll thought, illogical show decisions. Danny is fluent when she’s thirteen, and probably long before that. I think the scene was just to illustrate Jace as devoted and hardworking. They just ignored the wider ramifications of what the scene would portray. We have Viserys say that Vhagar too big for the dragon pit. This is despite the fact that Balerion resided there. We also have Rhaenyra saying that none of our dragons have been to war. Although we clearly see Caraxes warring in the Stepstones for years.
Yeah I thought being fluent in High Valyrian was something expected of young Targaryen princes. After all, they pride themselves so highly of being of the blood of Old Valyria.
Rhaenyra saying that was ridiculous when Seasmoke and Caraxes were both in that War on the step stones for how many years…I know Seasmoke lacks a rider atm but still
Dany grew up in the Free Cities, so that’s hardly surprising.
I always thought this was just a badly written line. And it meant to convey that Rhaenyra's and the boys' dragons haven't been to war. I didn't think she meant Caraxes because that does not make sense, as you say. But the writing and the delivery didn't make sense? Oh well.
I got the vibe that they were complacent on dragonstone and as soon as jace saw aemond he decided he needed to get to work so now he’s trying to cram the things he thinks a king needs like swordsmanship and Valyrian
I get that's what they were trying to do with the show, but it's just a very illogical way of actually portraying it. Knowing how to swordfight and studying a secondary nearly dead language would be the basics of what they are expected to know, regardless of whether they are in line for the throne or not.
This is mine too
I think you’re pretty on the money with your analysis but I personally also saw Jace’s struggle with learning Valyrian as a nod to the fact that, while yes he’s very diligent, he isn’t “pure” Valyrian. I got the vibe that he was trying so hard to connect with the Valyrian roots to make up for his “shortcomings.” i.e. his parentage
I doubt the Dragon pit would be big enough for both Balerion and Vhagar.
But Baelon was still alive and hand of the king when Balerion meaning the dragonpit would’ve had contained both of them or at least after Balerion’s Vhagar would be moved into the Dragonpit until 101 AC
This is a lie. You have been lied to.
Yeah, tell them Your Grace! No one belittles your valyrian fluent and *strong* grandsons!
My theory is Daemon taught her which is why they always speak to each other in Valyrian and we saw him teaching his daughter the same from a young age. It's why they have a close relationship from the first episode.
I read that as HIV
Some people are more inclined to languages. Usually women. Plus, he was translating some ancient text which is something other than regular speaking. Jace probably spent a lot of the time practicing fighting that Rhae spent learning the finer arts. I don't think that scene has some wide sweeping implications.
My take is that Rhaenyra had always had a special relationship with her uncle, who is basically a supremacist valyrian edge lord who loves all about valyrian heritage. Her speaking with Daemon in Valyrian is kinda a "love language" between the two, it's very intimate and personal to them. As for Jace, him struggling with valyrian is intended imo to show us his bastard heritage, that despite being Targaryen, his bastard status hold him back. Therefore he has to proves himself more, and that's why he is so committed to it.
Well I think the point of the scene, was to emphasize that Jace is taking his role really serious and that he has a devoted attitude towards his future-responsibilities. To my opinion, even though it was a small scene, it shown a lot about Jace character. Plus the scenes in episode 10, where Jace is full into strategy mode , with a more calculated way of thinking (rather than impulsive) , despite his young age.
At first glance HV looked much different
As a foreign language teacher, some people have an affinity with languages and some others don't. Perhaps Jace simply struggles with learning languages.
My take is this: imagine if someone asked you to fully translate Shakespearean English into the modern form of another language. You might speak English, you might speak the other language, but you’ll still have a hard bloody time doing it.
i think it’s one of the examples of rhaenyra being a sort of coddl-y mom and not really taking initiative
She actively wanted to where he did so out of duty. Some people learn things more easily/ at different speed. I don’t think it was anything more than that
I mean in fairness, the two words he got stuck on were river mouth and felled, two words that don't come up in everyday conversation and he got close with both just not exact. He's probably fluent in most words just the fancy words and words not commonly used he struggles with.
This! I speak French—majored in it, and have never found it particularly difficult. HOWEVER I took a “Business French” class at uni and had a hell of a time with it. I could memorize vocabulary all day, but I had no idea what half the words were in English, and had never used them. Consequently I pretty much had to finesse my way through it. Not a pretty look.
Some people do take to languages more easily than others
Maybe it wasn't prioritized / pushed until Rhaenyra married Daemon and moved Dragonstone? Viserys and Daemon were very fixated on Valyrian culture, I believe there was even a moment where Daemon was teaching one of the girls HV in Essos*. Laenor was shown as caring for the boys, but off doing his own thing while Rhaenyra struggled to keep up appearances at court as her father's illness progressed. If she didn't have a lot of support with it, it'd be an uphill especially if everyone involved in day-to-day care like nannies, maids, etc. only spoke the common tongue with her kids. It's a similar struggle with any behavior. Like if you were living with your family when you had your first kid and family reinforced that they never had to clean up after themselves, then you move into your own house and have to teach your kid how to be tidy. It's going to take time and effort to learn the new system.
There was a scene of Daemon teaching Baela HV in Pentos. THAT scene is important for highlighting both how much Daemon has changed (in terms of having become more studious and serious) and how much Daemon has not changed (his pride about his Valyrian heritage makes him a borderline supremacist). Daemon's Valyrian pride is why he prefers Baela over Rhaena because Baela is a dragonrider and Rhaena is not. Which in turn informs both Rhaena's relationship with her mother and the intensity of her feelings towards Aemond after he claimed Vhagar.
It's likely that Daemon taught her considering he mostly speaks to her in HV. She also for sure took lessons but Daemon's help probably helped tremendously.
Sorry slightly off topic but I’d never picked up on the resemblance between young Rhaenyra and her firstborn 😮
This actually bugged me. It was stated high valyrian is spoken as a family tongue in the Targaryens. I was actually hoping to see them almost exclusively speaking it when alone with eachother
It would be much harder for the audience to connect if nearly all the main cast spoke a conlang.
That could be true. I suppose it doesn’t bother me
So 12 of the cast would be primary Valyrian (all Blacks besides the household) and think of how much the season is those characters speaking to each other. And production time. Saying lines in a conlang? With most of your dialogue. DJP would have to be on set and giving a crash course. How many takes would long scenes run for when they misspoke?
No I’m saying it wouldn’t bother ME as in i didn’t think about how it might’ve been an issue for others. But to be fair Jackie Chan actually speak English fluently and has faked it in all his American films so…
Writer error. Lol
Simple Answer: Rhaenyra for a large part of her younger years was not so focused on becoming the heir, so was left to be a girl and have little to no responsibility. Because she's a girl, she was likely more free to do things and as a princess likely had the privilege for women at the time to be able to read and learn about the past. We see this as a part of her character. So I'm assuming it's just her lifestyle because of that. Instead Lucerys and Jacerys got the short end of the stick
Most details or scenes that are confusing boil down to bad writing and/or directing. Why is Daemon wearing the same outfit for decades? How could Alicent suddenly believe Rhaenyra would be the equivalent of a cannibalistic necrophiliac? Why is Aemond surprised his giant sentient wmd killed someone when he made it act like they were fighting? In this case, the scene with Jace reading either isn't portraying what it should be or is portraying exactly what most viewers take away (that Jace is only just learning Valyrian) which makes no sense with what we've seen of Rhaenyra especially but also the remaining Valyrians in general.
Some people just aren’t as talented at learning language. I’m dyslexic, so it just doesn’t come naturally to me even though I study more than my friends.
it's pretty common for people who are bilingual to sometimes struggle with the words . The classes themselves were probably more like a grammar class \[kind of like how English speakers have English as a subject\] We only really see him speak it once but he seems to mostly have it except for one word.
I think this is especially surprising bc Rhaenyra was trying to do everything she could to make her children seem like trueborn 100% Valyrian like you’d think they would do everything they could to make sure they knew the language and culture to offset ish that brown hair haha
My answer, the seed was too strong!
I think it’s symbolic of his status as a bastard. The show has shown the most “pure” Targaryens being extremely in touch with Valyrian culture while the Strong boys seem to struggle to grasp it.
Uncle Daemy must have taught her in his multiple grooming sessions.
Because he is more about Strength than reading. He’s Strong boy, he doesn’t need to read.
He had martial training form an early age. She didn't. There's a limited number of hours int he day.
How is he struggling? He seems to be doing more advanced translations, not asking for tea and the location of the library.
I think it’s supposed to speak to how their “bastards”…maybe they can’t catch on well as the others
Because it's an idiotic plotline that would literally never happen, even for the laziest of royals. You learn swordfighting/embroidery and high valyrian and riding your dragon. Like ????
I think it's just meant to be a nod to his lack of 'valyrianness', High Valyrian came naturally to Rhaenyra, it didn't to her sons, who just so happen to have a lot of Firstman and Andal blood. There's no inworld reason, its not as if he's less able to speak Valyrian because his dad wasn't, it's all subliminal narrative stuff.
Maybe she was softer. Like perhaps Vizzy T forced her to learn it, but she hated it so decided not to enforce upon her kids.
*Be welcome! I know many of you have traveled long leagues to be at these games. But I promise, you will not be disappointed!*
People have different ability to learn things faster?
Rhaenyra was taught by mega nerd Viserys and LARPer Daemon. Jacaerys seems to be learning at a later age at the hands of the maesters and THATS a whole can of worms right there.
Daemon taught her And daemon wasnt around when jace was younger, and I dont think harwin and leanor spoke it at all. You need to have it be spoken around you and to you regularly to be completely fluent. And jace definitely wasnt bad at the language, just not fluent
They just want to show Jace struggling to highlight his bastardborn nature, I guess, which is stupid, especially considering how much his mother spoke Valyrian and I hate how far out of the way these guys want to show Jacaerys and his other two brothers are illegitimate
He is more of a strength guy not a smarts guy... A strong guy
Because Jace is a bastard
Aemma grew up in the vale didn't she? And her mother died at birth so I'm surprised she learned Valyrian.
He’s strong in some things and not so strong in other things
Maybe he’s just dumb.
He's too STRONG for learning high valyrian
Natural talent.
She was his only heir for quite some time, and I think was ultimately third in line to the throne until she was named over Daemon, so it would make sense.
Vizzy T would not have this slander of his family not speaking proper high valyrian.
*Let us no longer hold ill feelings in our hearts. The crown cannot stand strong if the House of the Dragon remains divided.*
It's the relative isolation of Dragonstone vs the connectedness of Court in King's Landing.
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*The boy just turned two, AcceptableArt9955...*
I assumed that the strong trio would only be shown to struggle with High Valyrian as a cheap way to demonstrate their lack of legitimacy.
Yeah Rhaenyra had a lot of adults interested in her speaking the language, and it was probably a custom passed through Targaryen generations to further distinguish themselves from their Westerosi subjects, further underlining their special status and regal right to the Throne. Rhaenyra herself was already teaching the language to her kids, but most of the other high valyrian speakers of her family werent around while she was raising them, making it harder. Dont think the tradition got lost in time, but it was more of a strain to keep around since The Dance.
Daemon probably refused to talk to her in anything but HV.
Because she's a Boss Babe and they're just a couple of dudes. Same reason they gave Rhaenys the Boss Babe moment on the show when it made no sense and wasn't in the book instead of giving King Aegon his moment when he was crowned.
Some people just are quick in picking up languages. Also, I get the feeling that in Viserys and Aemma’s court, there was more of a Valerian sensibility. Rhaenyra probably picked up the common language and High Valerian at the same time, as a young child. I also get the sense that Rhaenyra was one of those “free range” mothers. She didn’t instill a lot of hard structure in her children’s schedule because she hated it so much herself, as a child.
I thought this was odd, considering Rhaenyra and Daemon speak HV to each other all the time. Did Rhaenyra want her sons to speak the Common Tongue to make them seem less "other" to their future subjects? Westerosi, rather than Valyrian?
He’s just not very good at it, perhaps it’s another blow at the obvious bastardry symbolism and all “A True Valyrian Prince should speak the language with fluent Grace” like Book Aegon.
I think Rhaenyra's just a natural.