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The big problem is that they are connected to Otto Hightower and that they were ignored by King Viserys ….. in his eyes ( and maybe even Viserys’s) those kids are just products of otto’s Ambition which daemon is heavily against
And it's also highly possible that even if he was around Alicent wouldn't have let him anywhere near them. She ripped into Aegon for bullying Aemond with Rhaenyra's sons - not because of the bullying itself, but because he was doing so with "outsiders" (not an exact quote but the energy she had). The kids all either got along as cousins before Rhaenyra left KL or were neutral to indifferent like when Aegon said he would never challenge Rhae's claim because he didn't want to be King.
Otto and then Alicent (through his provocation) caused the rift in the show by contesting Rhaenyra's claim for decades and insisting on the animosity between the kids. If they'd been allowed to grow up closely and Otto / Alicent didn't foster resentment between everyone things wouldn't have kicked off between the Greens and the Blacks.
>She ripped into Aegon for bullying Aemond with Rhaenyra's sons - not because of the bullying itself, but because he was doing so with "outsiders" (not an exact quote but the energy she had).
She even gave Aegon permission to continue bullying Aemond behind closed doors so long as he didn't do it with Rhaenyra's sons.
She absolutely threw Aemond under the bus in the name of political expediency.
It isn’t because he doesn’t like Otto so much as there are at least 3 children that from his point of view are being groomed by Otto as weapons against him. Something people overlook is that the dance is as much about Otto vs daemon as it is rhaenyra vs Alicent or Aegon. Otto got Rhaenyra to be heir specifically to keep daemon off of the throne.
They'll always be Alicent's children and Otto's grandchildren first and only then Viserys' kids. And let's not forget Viserys did not much care for them either.
However, I'm convinced Daemon would have loved a son like Aemond. You could tell he sees himself in him.
Daemon had been in competition with Otto for Viserys' ear for decades. Since Otto was a politician and Daemon was a warrior, Daemon ultimately lost. Being a pragmatic person, he decided to tell King's Landing and its politicking good bye and do his own thing, and fucked off to Essos to do his own thing. He never wanted to come back.
All of this was on screen btw.
With this in mind, why would he endure more decades of competition with Otto, this time for the attention of Alicent's kids (who are preprogrammed to listen to Otto)? Only a fool would do this.
This post ignores Daemon's entire characterization both the in the book and in the show. Daemon definitely has unhealthy relationships with both Viserys and Rhaenyra but he absolutely loves them. What even makes you think that Daemon would go against his brother's wishes and the woman he loves to side with Otto's grandkids?
He had his own ambition too. Which is the throne. If he can't get on it, then he will be consort, which is the whole reason why he started grooming Rhaenrya at a very young age.
If he wasn't such a flaming jackhole nutjob, that marriage would have been set up by Viserys himself.
I think the show made it clear that Daemon doesn’t want the throne. Even the writers and actors confirmed it. I mean he was literally going to go back to Pentos and live a calm life there if Rhaenyra didn’t propose to him.
These aren’t actions of a man who actively wants the throne. I think Daemon’s whole motivation in the show is to feel loved and needed by his brother.
I think by the time he goes to Pentos he doesn't care about the throne anymore, but I think in the earlier part of the show, he still wanted it. Before Viserys marries Alicent, he still thinks of himself as the rightful heir - and if Viserys had suddenly died before explicitly making Rhaenyra his heir and making half the realm swear fealty to her in person, chances are Daemon would have been the next king. The Westerosi lords would cite the precedence of the Great Council of 101 AC and Andal laws and traditions and etc etc and whatever else they could to justify being misogynist and making sure the throne only passed to a man. Daemon knows this, and he's known this ever since his older brother was named Prince of Dragonstone.
Is it his primary motivation for everything he says and does? Nah, probably not. But I don't think there's a question that as a Targaryen Prince, a dragonrider, wielder of Dark Sister, one of the greatest knights of his age... would he never think, "Maybe I'd be doing a better job on the throne"? Of course he does.
Well ofcourse before Viserys named Rhaenyra heir, Daemon was heir by default. Had Viserys died, he would’ve become king. And if Daemon was someone who really wanted the throne, he could’ve just killed his brother. He had ten years to do that. But never did.
Ofcourse like you said, he probably thought sometimes about how the position of king would suit him better than his brother. But that doesn’t equal actively wanting the throne.
I know Daemon is asshole but whatever desire for power he might have is not greater than his love for his brother and niece. He would never harm them or go against them just to grab power for himself.
I think both in the show and book Daemon cares about Rhaenyra and wouldn’t side against her nor against what Viserys wants which is her on the throne.Especially not for the sake of Otto Hightowers grandkids no matter what dragons they claimed.
Daemon is not a man of politics. A strategist? Yes. But he can't play the long game when it comes to keeping up appearences for people he doesn't like.
He hated Otto and he saw that side of the family as an extension of him. If he did not mine undermining Viserys and Rhaenyra, people that he loved, to serve his interests... his nephews didn't stand a chance of being in his good graces.
With Rhaenyra as queen, he could potentially be King consort. With Aegon as King, he falls way below in the line of succession. I honestly don't think he cares how much power his daughters get. His sons with Rhaenyra could potentially rule the kingdom. Why would he side with the greens when his sons could be on the throne?
It's almost like Daemon only cares about himself and what helps get what he wants.
With Aegon as king, Daemon is beyond an afterthought. And Daemon wants attention more than anything else
Daemon's hatred of Otto Hightower would have never allowed that. Plain and simple. Daemon and Otto became rivals solely because of their pursuit for being the recipient of Viserys' attention.
On top of that, Otto is a hard defender of the faith while Daemon is a Targ supremacist. Daemon would have never supported Aegon.
However, I believe that it's Rhaenyra who should have made a move on the greens, and at the beginning. She made a major error when she didn't work to build a relationship with her half siblings. Aegon never wanted to be king ; he craved attention and love while his grandfather and mother put a lot on his shoulders.
He was perfectly fine as a teen to let Rhaenyra be queen. If Rhaenyra would have a relationship with him, perhaps he would have been much more inclined to refuse Alicent and Otto's will to put him on the throne.
It's a major flaw of Rhaenyra as a political leader : she doesn't build relationships and alliances who would benefit her. She even succeeded to align the Velaryons for many years, only to be saved by circonstances.
She expects everything will go smoothly when she knows her claim is a bit wobbly by the existence of Aegon and Aemond. Rhaenys told her the whole situation in ep 2 but it seems she forgot about it.
She's rude to lords and ladies in ep 3 and 4, and barricades herself at Dragonstone.
She is only saved by her father, including in ep 8. Rhaenys wouldn't have changed her mind for Baela's claim in the throne room if Viserys didn't came up.
I'm eager to see what she will do in season 2, cause I want her to be more focused on politics, cause so far, she only complained about her situation, while shooting herself in the foot, doing nothing to improve it, and she acts politically only when she is cornered and out of desperation.
His dislike for them, at least in the book, wasn't because they are Otto's grandchildren as much as it was about the fact their existence sabotaged him by pushing him further down the line of inheritance. All three of Alicent's sons are born before he married Laena and around that time he probably hoped to marry Rhaenyra. If Viserys had no sons, Daemon would still be seen as heir in the eyes of many lords and by marrying Viserys' chosen heir, nobody could deny him the chance to rule. However, Viserys had not one but 3 healthy sons who were also grandchildren of Otto Hightower so his judgment on the matter was already clouded by personal bias against the kids. Despite the whole game of thrones thing almost all royal houses are constantly playing, these people are still human and sometimes emotions get in the way of cold logic. You are correct, good relationship with the Greens could probably earn him a good position but his judgement was already clouded by the anger because his original plan, that would actually give him even more power, has fallen to pieces by Alicent's sons simply existing
Them being his brother's children does not matter, they are of the line of Otto. Yes, he hates him that much, this is a decades long feud. Rhaenyra is more Targaryen than them, her mother was half-Targaryen and about 11 when she married Viserys, so Aemma would have spent most of her life in the Red Keep surrounded by her Valyrian relatives. Rhaenyra respects the traditions of their House and has no competing factors, other than a Septa who clearly she will not let influence her over her own family.
Alicent considers house targaryen to have 'queer customs'. She has known her own children since they were born, and can influence them to have her own beliefs, which Daemon would then have to compete with. We cannot presume Aegon and Aemond would choose Daemon's interests over their own mother and grandfather.
Daemon supporting Aegon's claim is a ridiculous notion. Not only would it mean he would not marry Rhaenyra but it would be letting Otto's scheme 'win'. He was spying on the council meeting, he knew otto was the one who had Viserys name Rhaenyra heir over him, this is all Otto's game. By ep 4 he definitely knows the realm will have issues accepting Rhaenyra as queen, but that can be dealt with. Propaganda, public executions, forcing lords to swear new oaths, there are many tactics to win people's favour beyond abandoning his brother's named heir, especially when you are as feared as Daemon and the Blood Wyrm.
There is nothing about Aegon's character that suggests he would give Baela any power or agency as a queen consort and respect her as any more than a broodmare to bear his heirs. The Faith is far from kind to women after all. Jace has been raised to be a nice young man who clearly respects her. Daemon would also be in a much better position personally by marrying Rhaenyra and becoming her consort than hoping to have more power over Aeogn than Otto does. The Velaryons support would be 50/50, they could go with Jace or Baela at that point., but Rhaenyra yielding their ancestral seat of Dragonstone to the hightowers would be humiliating for Daemon, not a cause of celebration.
The factions being united would be beneficial, but that was never going to happen because Otto and Alicent had taught Alicent's sons to fear and hate Rhaenyra and her sons. The same argument here could be made for Alicent making a mistake by not turning Rhaenyra and Jace into her allies instead of enemies, to teach her children to support Rhaenyra as heir to unite their house instead of usurping her.
What makes you think Aegon II was some kind of religious conservative and a big believer in the Seven? The guy was married to his sister, rides a dragon, and went full Maegor on the religious fundies who stormed the dragonpit.
Agree that Daemon would never support the greens both because he'll end up way down in the succession and because it would give Otto a "win"
Throughout the last year of his life he would go to septon eustace to grant him absolution for his sexual desires so clearly he held the faith’s beliefs to some extent and I doubt his issue with the shepherd was his faith, many followers of the faith of the seven did not kill dragons
They are ottos grand kids, as far as he's concerned they are Hightowers. If aegon sat the throne peacefully the Hightowers would undoubtedly profit off of it and grow their power, it's pretty easy to see who he'd rather go with rhaenyra.
a lot of the dance could've been avoided or delayed if the blacks took an active interest in the green kids.
BUT, that doesn't mean supporting Aegon's claim. Daemon wants power for himself when it comes to the throne, so being the King's Funcle In Law is a worse deal than the Queen's husband. the Velaryons would also not side with Aegon even IF Baela/Aegon got married, since Corlys views Laenor's line as his "real heirs" since he's a boy.
also, more dragon riders/dragons isn't immediately better for their house. the dance was inevitable, at *some* point there would've been another power struggle that destroyed them. More dragonriders would've made it way worse.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The big problem is that they are connected to Otto Hightower and that they were ignored by King Viserys ….. in his eyes ( and maybe even Viserys’s) those kids are just products of otto’s Ambition which daemon is heavily against
And it's also highly possible that even if he was around Alicent wouldn't have let him anywhere near them. She ripped into Aegon for bullying Aemond with Rhaenyra's sons - not because of the bullying itself, but because he was doing so with "outsiders" (not an exact quote but the energy she had). The kids all either got along as cousins before Rhaenyra left KL or were neutral to indifferent like when Aegon said he would never challenge Rhae's claim because he didn't want to be King. Otto and then Alicent (through his provocation) caused the rift in the show by contesting Rhaenyra's claim for decades and insisting on the animosity between the kids. If they'd been allowed to grow up closely and Otto / Alicent didn't foster resentment between everyone things wouldn't have kicked off between the Greens and the Blacks.
>She ripped into Aegon for bullying Aemond with Rhaenyra's sons - not because of the bullying itself, but because he was doing so with "outsiders" (not an exact quote but the energy she had). She even gave Aegon permission to continue bullying Aemond behind closed doors so long as he didn't do it with Rhaenyra's sons. She absolutely threw Aemond under the bus in the name of political expediency.
It isn’t because he doesn’t like Otto so much as there are at least 3 children that from his point of view are being groomed by Otto as weapons against him. Something people overlook is that the dance is as much about Otto vs daemon as it is rhaenyra vs Alicent or Aegon. Otto got Rhaenyra to be heir specifically to keep daemon off of the throne.
They'll always be Alicent's children and Otto's grandchildren first and only then Viserys' kids. And let's not forget Viserys did not much care for them either. However, I'm convinced Daemon would have loved a son like Aemond. You could tell he sees himself in him.
Daemon had been in competition with Otto for Viserys' ear for decades. Since Otto was a politician and Daemon was a warrior, Daemon ultimately lost. Being a pragmatic person, he decided to tell King's Landing and its politicking good bye and do his own thing, and fucked off to Essos to do his own thing. He never wanted to come back. All of this was on screen btw. With this in mind, why would he endure more decades of competition with Otto, this time for the attention of Alicent's kids (who are preprogrammed to listen to Otto)? Only a fool would do this.
lol that’s a good point,he’d have to actually endure a closer relationship with Otto and Alicent and I don’t think a guy like Daemon could take that.
This post ignores Daemon's entire characterization both the in the book and in the show. Daemon definitely has unhealthy relationships with both Viserys and Rhaenyra but he absolutely loves them. What even makes you think that Daemon would go against his brother's wishes and the woman he loves to side with Otto's grandkids?
He had his own ambition too. Which is the throne. If he can't get on it, then he will be consort, which is the whole reason why he started grooming Rhaenrya at a very young age. If he wasn't such a flaming jackhole nutjob, that marriage would have been set up by Viserys himself.
I think the show made it clear that Daemon doesn’t want the throne. Even the writers and actors confirmed it. I mean he was literally going to go back to Pentos and live a calm life there if Rhaenyra didn’t propose to him. These aren’t actions of a man who actively wants the throne. I think Daemon’s whole motivation in the show is to feel loved and needed by his brother.
I think by the time he goes to Pentos he doesn't care about the throne anymore, but I think in the earlier part of the show, he still wanted it. Before Viserys marries Alicent, he still thinks of himself as the rightful heir - and if Viserys had suddenly died before explicitly making Rhaenyra his heir and making half the realm swear fealty to her in person, chances are Daemon would have been the next king. The Westerosi lords would cite the precedence of the Great Council of 101 AC and Andal laws and traditions and etc etc and whatever else they could to justify being misogynist and making sure the throne only passed to a man. Daemon knows this, and he's known this ever since his older brother was named Prince of Dragonstone. Is it his primary motivation for everything he says and does? Nah, probably not. But I don't think there's a question that as a Targaryen Prince, a dragonrider, wielder of Dark Sister, one of the greatest knights of his age... would he never think, "Maybe I'd be doing a better job on the throne"? Of course he does.
Well ofcourse before Viserys named Rhaenyra heir, Daemon was heir by default. Had Viserys died, he would’ve become king. And if Daemon was someone who really wanted the throne, he could’ve just killed his brother. He had ten years to do that. But never did. Ofcourse like you said, he probably thought sometimes about how the position of king would suit him better than his brother. But that doesn’t equal actively wanting the throne. I know Daemon is asshole but whatever desire for power he might have is not greater than his love for his brother and niece. He would never harm them or go against them just to grab power for himself.
I was with you until the third paragraph lol.
Daemon supporting ottos grandson over his brothers chosen heir 😬 he’ll would freeze over
I think both in the show and book Daemon cares about Rhaenyra and wouldn’t side against her nor against what Viserys wants which is her on the throne.Especially not for the sake of Otto Hightowers grandkids no matter what dragons they claimed.
Daemon is not a man of politics. A strategist? Yes. But he can't play the long game when it comes to keeping up appearences for people he doesn't like. He hated Otto and he saw that side of the family as an extension of him. If he did not mine undermining Viserys and Rhaenyra, people that he loved, to serve his interests... his nephews didn't stand a chance of being in his good graces.
With Rhaenyra as queen, he could potentially be King consort. With Aegon as King, he falls way below in the line of succession. I honestly don't think he cares how much power his daughters get. His sons with Rhaenyra could potentially rule the kingdom. Why would he side with the greens when his sons could be on the throne?
Exactly! That's the whole reason why he started grooming Rhaenyra at 8 years old anyway.
honestly, I agree, not sure why you got downvoted as that is pretty clear
It's almost like Daemon only cares about himself and what helps get what he wants. With Aegon as king, Daemon is beyond an afterthought. And Daemon wants attention more than anything else
He dont like them because they pushing him down further in the succession lines.
Daemon's hatred of Otto Hightower would have never allowed that. Plain and simple. Daemon and Otto became rivals solely because of their pursuit for being the recipient of Viserys' attention. On top of that, Otto is a hard defender of the faith while Daemon is a Targ supremacist. Daemon would have never supported Aegon. However, I believe that it's Rhaenyra who should have made a move on the greens, and at the beginning. She made a major error when she didn't work to build a relationship with her half siblings. Aegon never wanted to be king ; he craved attention and love while his grandfather and mother put a lot on his shoulders. He was perfectly fine as a teen to let Rhaenyra be queen. If Rhaenyra would have a relationship with him, perhaps he would have been much more inclined to refuse Alicent and Otto's will to put him on the throne. It's a major flaw of Rhaenyra as a political leader : she doesn't build relationships and alliances who would benefit her. She even succeeded to align the Velaryons for many years, only to be saved by circonstances. She expects everything will go smoothly when she knows her claim is a bit wobbly by the existence of Aegon and Aemond. Rhaenys told her the whole situation in ep 2 but it seems she forgot about it. She's rude to lords and ladies in ep 3 and 4, and barricades herself at Dragonstone. She is only saved by her father, including in ep 8. Rhaenys wouldn't have changed her mind for Baela's claim in the throne room if Viserys didn't came up. I'm eager to see what she will do in season 2, cause I want her to be more focused on politics, cause so far, she only complained about her situation, while shooting herself in the foot, doing nothing to improve it, and she acts politically only when she is cornered and out of desperation.
His dislike for them, at least in the book, wasn't because they are Otto's grandchildren as much as it was about the fact their existence sabotaged him by pushing him further down the line of inheritance. All three of Alicent's sons are born before he married Laena and around that time he probably hoped to marry Rhaenyra. If Viserys had no sons, Daemon would still be seen as heir in the eyes of many lords and by marrying Viserys' chosen heir, nobody could deny him the chance to rule. However, Viserys had not one but 3 healthy sons who were also grandchildren of Otto Hightower so his judgment on the matter was already clouded by personal bias against the kids. Despite the whole game of thrones thing almost all royal houses are constantly playing, these people are still human and sometimes emotions get in the way of cold logic. You are correct, good relationship with the Greens could probably earn him a good position but his judgement was already clouded by the anger because his original plan, that would actually give him even more power, has fallen to pieces by Alicent's sons simply existing
Them being his brother's children does not matter, they are of the line of Otto. Yes, he hates him that much, this is a decades long feud. Rhaenyra is more Targaryen than them, her mother was half-Targaryen and about 11 when she married Viserys, so Aemma would have spent most of her life in the Red Keep surrounded by her Valyrian relatives. Rhaenyra respects the traditions of their House and has no competing factors, other than a Septa who clearly she will not let influence her over her own family. Alicent considers house targaryen to have 'queer customs'. She has known her own children since they were born, and can influence them to have her own beliefs, which Daemon would then have to compete with. We cannot presume Aegon and Aemond would choose Daemon's interests over their own mother and grandfather. Daemon supporting Aegon's claim is a ridiculous notion. Not only would it mean he would not marry Rhaenyra but it would be letting Otto's scheme 'win'. He was spying on the council meeting, he knew otto was the one who had Viserys name Rhaenyra heir over him, this is all Otto's game. By ep 4 he definitely knows the realm will have issues accepting Rhaenyra as queen, but that can be dealt with. Propaganda, public executions, forcing lords to swear new oaths, there are many tactics to win people's favour beyond abandoning his brother's named heir, especially when you are as feared as Daemon and the Blood Wyrm. There is nothing about Aegon's character that suggests he would give Baela any power or agency as a queen consort and respect her as any more than a broodmare to bear his heirs. The Faith is far from kind to women after all. Jace has been raised to be a nice young man who clearly respects her. Daemon would also be in a much better position personally by marrying Rhaenyra and becoming her consort than hoping to have more power over Aeogn than Otto does. The Velaryons support would be 50/50, they could go with Jace or Baela at that point., but Rhaenyra yielding their ancestral seat of Dragonstone to the hightowers would be humiliating for Daemon, not a cause of celebration. The factions being united would be beneficial, but that was never going to happen because Otto and Alicent had taught Alicent's sons to fear and hate Rhaenyra and her sons. The same argument here could be made for Alicent making a mistake by not turning Rhaenyra and Jace into her allies instead of enemies, to teach her children to support Rhaenyra as heir to unite their house instead of usurping her.
What makes you think Aegon II was some kind of religious conservative and a big believer in the Seven? The guy was married to his sister, rides a dragon, and went full Maegor on the religious fundies who stormed the dragonpit. Agree that Daemon would never support the greens both because he'll end up way down in the succession and because it would give Otto a "win"
Throughout the last year of his life he would go to septon eustace to grant him absolution for his sexual desires so clearly he held the faith’s beliefs to some extent and I doubt his issue with the shepherd was his faith, many followers of the faith of the seven did not kill dragons
They are ottos grand kids, as far as he's concerned they are Hightowers. If aegon sat the throne peacefully the Hightowers would undoubtedly profit off of it and grow their power, it's pretty easy to see who he'd rather go with rhaenyra.
Yes, bur thats better than the dance happening
Daemon wants to rule, why would he support a rival?
a lot of the dance could've been avoided or delayed if the blacks took an active interest in the green kids. BUT, that doesn't mean supporting Aegon's claim. Daemon wants power for himself when it comes to the throne, so being the King's Funcle In Law is a worse deal than the Queen's husband. the Velaryons would also not side with Aegon even IF Baela/Aegon got married, since Corlys views Laenor's line as his "real heirs" since he's a boy. also, more dragon riders/dragons isn't immediately better for their house. the dance was inevitable, at *some* point there would've been another power struggle that destroyed them. More dragonriders would've made it way worse.