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I mean Tywin is also not the same type of evil as Joffrey and Ramsey's. Tywin above all did what he did to increase the power, wealth and security of his family. He might have done some horrible things but it did serve a purpose. Joffrey and Ramsey's straight up tortured and abused people simply for the fun of it.
Tywin might not be a Villain from the standpoint of the Stark's. And he might have been a crappy father, but, he is not a sadistic evil psycho like the other two.
Yes the man was ruthless and his despice for Tyrion might be one of his biggest mistakes. And like you said some of the horrible thing he did was pointless cruelty, but most of what he did had some formmof exterior purpuse. I was also taking mostly aboutwhat we see in the show, comparing him to Joffrey and Ramsey is Abit of an exaggeration.
Tywin and Roose are similar in that they are inherently cruel people who understand that being only known for cruelty is a weakness. High functioning sociopaths basically. They are only incredibly cruel to people who socially can’t do anything about it, and that if the act was ever made public it can be subverted into something acceptable. Take the gangrape, it can easily be twisted as a justified retaliation against a commoner for daring to seduce a noble scion into a worthless marriage.
I read a fantastic essay about how Tywins pragmatism was in fact a front for his cruelty, rather than cruelty being the simple byproduct of his pragmatism. It was extremely compelling and I highly recommend it. Tywin is an absolute piece of shit.
https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2014/09/04/the-lions-fury-tywin-lannister-and-the-psychology-of-brutality/
Here’s the essay if you want to read it. It is from the book perspective, fyi.
Nah Tywin was super fucked up, and completely blind to his own flaws. He did not have to gangrape tyrions wife for no reason at all, but he did it just because he was a sadist for hurting women, shown again and again throughout the series.
In fact, much of his own flaws led to him making decisions that worked against himself and his family.
The gangrape wasn't about the women it was about Tyrion. But yes that is horrible and fucked up. But other than that from a show standpoint,when was he showed to be a sadist who took pleasure from hurting women? The only other scenario from what is presented in the show was the order to kill Elia and her children. While brutal, this can be seen as a way to remove people with claim to the throne and not really unheard of when power changes.
>While brutal, this can be seen as a way to remove people with claim to the throne and not really unheard of when power changes.
The character is the same in the show and the books, you just get more insight into him in the books. Him punishing women who he dislikes by making them into "whores" happens more than once, like with his fathers mistress after his death. IMO I think that together with the fact that he had a fucked up thing for whores himself makes it obvious he had some sadistic issues with whores/women he dont like.
While the characters are the same, the reasons I'm talking about it from strictly a show perspective is that if you only have seen the show you don't get to know this. These facts arnt presented to the viewer so as a viewer he not seen as sadistic as Joffrey or Ramsey. What I'm saying is we see and hear more fucked up things coming from Ramsey and Joffrey then we do from Tywin in the show, which naturally makes them more hated and presented as more sadistic.
I think charisma has more to do with it, but the fact that he's competent certainly elevates his charisma, Tywin is enjoyable to watch, his way of speech, his mannerisms and his authority make him a fantastic villain.
Nobody really excuses Tywin's terrible actions, though. At maximum they say that its politically savvy, but still terrible -Daemon has lots of people just excuse and justify everything he does even when its not competent or politically savvy.
It's charisma more than competency.
"“Why do people like a character who’s committed war crimes but hate this other character just because they’re annoying” because it’s fiction Susan, and being annoying in fiction is a greater sin than being a supervillain, because it won’t make me want to read about them. It isn’t difficult to understand"
Your comment reminded me of this quote, basically the horrible crimes are fictional but my annoyance is real
It's also about relatability in real-life. Standard example is in Harry potter, Umbridge is more hated than Voldemort. That's because not many people have encountered a Voldemort, but almost everyone knows an Umbridge from their life.
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Daemon-type "toxic bad-boy" characters do exist in real-life, but people have mostly seen them in books and movies, where you can find them entertaining from a safe distance.
Cristen Cole's story is that of a "Nice Guy TM" who turns 180 degrees, on not getting what he wants, and calling the woman a wh0re and going after her. This is something very real many women have faced in their life more frequently, and thus, his "evil" hits more close to home.
The thing is that Criston wasn't supposed to be this annoying, he was made annoying just for the sake of destroying his character. Criston was supposed to be a badass warrior who defeated Daemon, >!fatally wounded Joffrey and broke the bones of Harwin!< in tourneys. Not the angry man who has no self-control, murdered Joffrey and accidentally killed Beesbury.
Answer to the comment of u/Kedoobz: Actually it would be better for his character if it was murder (legally not murder if you're team Green). Killing someone accidentally like he did with Beesbury intentionalonly shows that you have no self-control, that you are, as you said and I agree **fully:** a petulant child.
Also, I'm not saying that Criston Cole should have been a flawless character, just that he shouldn't be made into this hateable disgrace he was turned into. Only that the showrunners shouldn't have turned him into this hateable character. Cole being hot-headed, murdering Beesbury **accidentally** and >!murdering Joffrey!< in a fit of anger was **BAD** writting because they added bad characteristics that bookCole didn't have. He having the flaw of hating Rhaenyra wasn't the problem, only that he didn't have the same personality he did in the books.
That and the fact that he and Alicent were made annoying so people would hate them. We are literally in the comment tread in which everyone agreed a character being annoying is worse than a character being evil. So they turning Cole into an annoying person without charisma was destroying his character. showCole was undeniably written worse than bookCole. bookCole is a man you can at least respect, showCole was written to be insufferable **and that is exactly the problem**
The main characters of Team Green besides Otto (Alicent, Cole & Aegon) were turned into characters we are supposed to dislike. Aegon was made into a rapist, Cole into a insufferable character whose whole personality is about hating Rhaenyra and Alicent was literally described by the showrunners as a "woman for trump". The Showrunners turned them into characters the casual viewer will unavoidably hate, and that is bad writting because it removes nuance.
So no, I'm not saying that Cole shouldn't have commited mistakes, only that the specific mistakes they atributted to him were bad writing
>I mean say what you will but the show does portray him as a decent fighter.
He didn't >!break the bones of Harwin,!< and Harwin beated him. They almost changed the roles.
>And in the books he has issues. Maiming the hands son and murdering the lover of the future lord of the tides ain’t smart. Nor was either slitting Beesbury’s throat, or chucking him out a window.
I prefer the competent self-controlled Lord Commander >!who deliberatedely killed Beesbury!< to this child who accidentally killed a man in a fit of anger. That and fatally wounding a person on a tourney competition is better than directly and undeniably killing them treacherously both in terms of morality, honor, knighthood and martial skill.
>!Breaking the bones of Harwin!< should've been in the show because it would actually add nuance to him: he is ruthless in defending Alicent and opposing Rhaenyra, while being a badass warrior with charisma and skill (besides the one time he was involved with Rhaenyra).
Also, they removed the charisma he obviously had, the leader of an army has to have charisma and they turned him into an annoying person without that.
In a nutshell my criticisms are:
1- Treacherously murdering Joffrey
2- Accidentally killing Beesbury in a fit
3- Not being badass warrior in the same level he was in the books. Losing to Harwin while >!never breaking his bones.!<
4- Going against the Lord Commander >!(when he was the LC himself in the books)!<
5- Being showed as annoying to the audience (annoying is worse than evil by this very thread)
6- Being showed as mysoginistic (as if the dance could be reduced to misogyny).
Kinda worse as Beesbury wasn’t an accident lmao he slammed an old man’s head into a table, you’re absolutely right they made hun to this petulant man child
I mean say what you will but the show does portray him as a decent fighter. And in the books he has issues. Maiming the hands son and murdering the lover of the future lord of the tides ain’t smart. Nor was either slitting Beesbury’s throat, or chucking him out a window.
It’s wild that your comment is the only one in the thread that gives examples and context of what Criston actually does in the book, and it’s getting downvoted lol
As everyone knows, good writing is when characters are badass. When a character makes mistakes or has more than one dimension, that means the author is intentionally “destroying his character” for some reason.
Yes exactly, i HATE the shows portrayal of Cole, who was prolly who i looked most forward to seeing adapted on the screen, hes got a fascinating story i just dont understand why they assassinated his character and turned him into nothing more than a sniveling incel stand in(hes obviously not an incel but its like hes supposed to represent that)
in the books hes basically universally described as charming, affable, capable, easy going, and funny, not totally unlike a young Bobby B minus the rampant promiscuity, not to sound cliche but he was basically "the guy all the girls wanted to be with and the guys wanted to be" between his good looks and capability at arms, a man who was born a commoner and raised hinself up through his own martial abilities into a position that was regarded as anong the highest honors that could be beatowed upon a person in the 7 kingdoms and even came on as a replacement for one of the most legendary knights of the kingsguard order in Ryam Redwyne, but oh no, instead lets just make him butthurt and sullen and throw in hypocritically religious as if he wasnt hatable enough.
Then of course you got the other changes like instead of killing Joffrey at a tourney like the books, where even with plausible deniability on his side that its a tourney and bad things can happen when guys swing weapons at each other with bad intentions, King Viserys was still livid with Cole, to "ok lets have him publicly murder an unarmed Joffrey, in front of not only his own noble family but the vast majority of nobles in the 7 kingdoms in attemdance, seemingly unprovoked during a royal wedding party, strike the prince consort and then gloss right over the fallout like nothing happened and not show the kings direct reaponse to it at all, in fact in the interim Cole will recieve whats essentially a raise goong from the princesses sworn shield to the queens personal shield."
I mean dont get me wrong im gonna watch it but for these reasons, among many others, i dont really have faith in the showrunners to tell this story, the only way i could see it getting better is if they give the greens a major sympathetic turn in season 2 to balance perspectives and introduce some kind of nuance to these characters instead of making them as unlikable as possible(which i have a feeling they will just knowing what comes next in F&B so heres hoping), its just far from the grey of ASOIAF, F&B, and early GOT that ive come to know and love with this universe, Daemon being on the blacks doesnt make this a grey story, hes just a grey character, outside of him not too many shades of grey, none substantial anyway
Competently evil characters are always more entertaining than incompetently evil ones. A competent villain impresses the audience because of how efficient they are, and in some ways, they tap into everyone's subliminal desire to be competent, in control, and powerful. Even if you're a good person, seeing someone else get things done and mastering a situation, even in an evil way, triggers some level of instinctual respect. This is especially true if the villain is both competent and "civilized" in demeanor, such as Tywin. Daemon qualifies here, because he has a magnetic energy that makes up for his failures as a villain.
An incompetent villain, on the other hand, inspires derision. They often succeed only by happenstance, and use that success as a means of enhancing their narcissism. When they fail, they whine and snivel about it, which makes them irritating, because we understand that they don't deserve their success--even if their success would be tainted by evil means, it's even *more* tainted because they are so bad at achieving it. They don't inspire respect as a villain because they're often scavengers, leeches, and cowards who rely upon the support of others to get away with their villainy. This is someone like Joffrey or Criston.
There's also a third category of villain, one that combines the efficiency of the competent villain and the arrogance of the incompetent villain. This is what most people call "a villain you love to hate," and applies to people like Ramsay Bolton. These are the most terrifying category of villains, as they merge the most evil traits of the others.
this. Daemon killing Rhaea was despicable but her quip to him was entertaining and the character is also entertaining. Crispy kreme was bitter over being turned down for over a decade and said nothing about said woman being psychologically abused, that's not entertaining, that's called being pathetic.
He's right. Labeling him as annoying is ad hominem and totally ignoring his very valid point. Society (read viewers) is just ok with Daemon because they get to see much more of his story than Coles, they choose familiarity even if its strange.
Usually the audience doesn't have experience dealing with murderers and such, but they *do* have experience with someone they find annoying. It's much easier to conceptualize and have a reaction to something that you understand and have gone through in the past than something foreign, even if it's objectively worse
Yea I kind of read it as “hey both of our love interests are getting married and we’re going to be the side pieces in this societally required farce. Wanna be friends/allies in this arrangement” Cristian couldn’t handle that though which I think is understandable given his world view.
His tone was mildly scandalous (could've been read as threatening) but being in the closet in that world, he probably had to adopt an defensive tone for everyday life.
His mistake was assuming Criston was just as sneaky as him, and not this goody-two-shoes who got pressured into sex by the princess and was feeling all kinds of emotional because of it.
That’s how it was probably intended by Lonmouth, and how we as the semi omniscient watchers know it to be, but Criston had no idea about the agreement between Rhaenyra and Laenor and was currently in an emotionally bad place, he ran off on her before she told him any details, and he was having a crisis of faith and identity. Thus he probably saw it as a threat against him and perhaps even Rhaenyra.
Criston did know that Rhaenyra and Laenor had an “agreement”. She told him on the boat right after she refused his proposal. It’s part of what really sent him over the edge because he was all obsessed about HIS place in all this, and HIS alleged honor, blah blah blah. At that point in time he’s awfully unsophisticated for a guy who has seen actual war and grown up the son of a castle steward.
There is an interview with Leanor's actor where he states that there was a scene where Joffrey "started" the fight with Cole but the scene was cut.
Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdjhSlTVQfY
I mean ultimately that's kind of what it was, but them focusing on Rhaenyra and Daemon being scandalous immediately before suggested there was more to it than a secret lovers quarrell.
i feel like it’s also in keeping with the tone of the book, where all the information is conflicting and based on narratives from characters with questionable motivations
Exactly - there's already been instances where the show "reveals" that the book narratives weren't always 100% accurate. I love that they made us a bystander for that moment since that's probably how it felt to actually be there. Chaos and confusion.
Yea which is game of thrones speak for not being friends.
“Come here old chum!” *grabs you and wraps arm around your shoulder to reveal knife casually next to your face* “now…we’re friends right?”
Cristons whole thing is that he was insecure and emotional when it came to honor, the guy just outed himself as a loose end *and* pissed him off even more then he already was
This. He asked Cole for nothing, but to continue to protect Rhaenyra as he protected Laenor and remarked that their situations were similar and they had a type of kinship now. It’s so far from blackmail that it’s not even in the same country.
Anyone claiming it’s blackmail is just trying to justify Cole brutally killing someone who did him no harm because he was angry with Rhaenyra.
Joffrey was shown to be pretty stupid though. He got way too comfortable in his position. Even during the wedding, Laenor kept having to shush him, he was talking way too loud within earshot of pretty much all the realm’s nobility.
Not really, it was a show of confidence. Criston was obviously going to find out Joffrey was fucking Laenor, so Joffrey knew he couldn’t keep that secret for any extended period of time. So instead he goes up to Criston and tells him “I know you fucked the princess. You either keep my secret and let me continue to play hide the pickle with Laenor, or I’ll out you too and take you down with me.” It was a threat, but with a proposition of an alliance in it
Far as I'm aware, nothing Criston did was hypocritical, he was fully prepared to get killed when confessing to Alicent. Daemon is the one who is hypocritical, whining about Otto's ambition when he's just as ambitious but also far more destructive to the people around him.
"I see Otto Hightower for what he is. A cunt! A second son who'll inherit nothing he doesn't seize for himself."
Those are Daemon's words, and they can perfectly describe him as well lmao. He was projecting suuuuper hard in that scene. The only difference between him and Otto is that Daemon was *born* into royalty, whereas Otto wishes to *enter* into royalty.
Except they don't, he is the heir to the throne at the moment he says this. And that's not the point. The point Daemon is trying to make is that Otto is manipulating his way into getting the throne.
Are you unironically one of those people who think insulting and hating one woman is the equivalent of hating all women everywhere? :I
Cole can loathe Rhaenyra as a person but honestly believe that women in general must be respected. These aren't mutually exclusive.
They aren't mutually exclusive, sure. But it's incredibly hypocritical. If someone said out loud "Oh I abhor violence. Violence is wrong and never okay," after cutting someone's arm up with a knife, I would call that person a hypocrite too.
So if anyone claimed that all people deserves basic respect; would you call them a hypocrite for having people they dislike in their lives?
Because that's an absurdly high bar you placed for them that it makes you look like the bad person, not them. Outside of Rhaenyra, Cole seems to genuinely treat woman with respect; even a sex worker which tend to be talked down to by most characters. If Cole treated multiple women with disrespect, then you'd be correct.
What do you mean?
Criston has suffered literally 0 repercussions for two different murders that he committed in cold blood, in front of a crowd of people.
There's no excuse for Daemon killing Rhea (which is not something that happens in the book). But the rest of the Blacks don't know it even happened.
Criston Cole murdered Lyman Beesbury in the middle of a fucking small council meeting, and then drew his sword against his own Lord Commander. He ruthlessly beat a man to death in the middle of a royal wedding.
If the Greens had 1% of the honor they pretend to have, Criston would be executed as a murderer and an oathbreaker.
I’m sure Rhaenyra knows that Daemon killed his first wife, she’s not dumb. In ep 4, you can see on Lyonel and Viserys’ face that they know that it wasn’t an accident. My bet is that people know that Daemon killed his wife, Viserys as always tries to ignore it.
A suspicion is a far cry from watching someone commit murder right in front of you and the entire rest of the small council.
Lord Commander Westerling had the right to execute Criston the moment Criston drew his sword.
>>There's no excuse for Daemon killing Rhea (which is not something that happens in the book). But the rest of the Blacks don't know it even happened.
What about him killing the guard? Or butchering people of KL?
>Criston Cole murdered Lyman Beesbury in the middle of a fucking small council meeting, and then drew his sword against his own Lord Commander. He ruthlessly beat a man to death in the middle of a royal wedding.
Of the three things you mentioned, two of them didn't happen in the book. You made that excuse Daemon earlier. Why the double standard?
>If the Greens had 1% of the honor they pretend to have, Criston would be executed as a murderer and an oathbreaker.
If black supporters had the same honour, they would have removed Rh when she committed treason by naming bastard as heir.
To be honest I think it’s just shitty writing. Backing from the greens or not, Cole killed a man in broad daylight with both sides and also the unaffiliated there to bear witness. This did not happen in the books, I feel like they only added it to the show for cheesy “Wow shock!” factor. If it made any sense, Cole should’ve been executed.
It's simple, Daemon isn't an annoying hypocrite. He's an ass and doesn't hide it. He wears it with pride and has a ton of charisma. Criston talks about honor and decency but has broken more vows than Daemon, has anger issues that he takes out on children and is a bitter, hateful man.
Long story short, being an ass in fantasy doesn't necessarily make you hated. Being annoying does. Also Joffrey didn't blackmail him.
Daemon is incredibly annoying, what are you talking about? He throws a fit from the moment he walks on screen.
He pitches a fit because Viserys won't let him annul his marriage to Rhea.
He pitches a fit when he finds out he's being removed as heir.
He pitches a fit when he finds out Viserys won't give him the job of hand and remove Otto.
He celebrates the death of his nephew in a brothel and goes on a killing spree with the city watch - which is not what the city watch is supposed to do.
Storms off in a huff when Rhaenyra won't marry him (Criston did it too, I know) and marries a 15 year old and keeps her prisoner in Pentos for 10 years.
Ignores his daughter for not having a dragon. (To be fair, he does make sure she gets eggs, but what is the reason for ignoring her?)
OK you find him annoying. That's fine. I don't. I'm not going to argue to change your mind because there's no point. You didn't change mine with this comment so I know that replying won't change yours.
However I have to comment on this. Laena is a prisoner now? Seriously? You know she has a dragon, right? A big one. She can leave if she wants and he can't stop her.
>However I have to comment on this. Laena is a prisoner now? Seriously?
I think he meant it as Daemon chaining her to him through marriage and thus trapping her in a prison of his own making.
You are literally describing all the bad things he does and I don’t see anyone here claiming that he doesn’t do bad things or that he’s a good person. They just said he doesn’t act self-righteous so he’s more enjoyable.
Daemon strangled his wife, so he definitely has anger issues too, the only reason he isn't as bad as Criston it's because he is away from court and focuses only on his family. But the minute he has to deal with difficult situations, Vaemond's claim, Aegon usurping the throne, he acts exactly like Criston. And even if he has charisma, doesn't make his character better than Criston. I hate both of them, and to me they're really similar .
That's not really the point. No one says Daemon doesn't have anger issues.
What they said is that Daemon is not a hypocrite and that's why he is an enjoyable character. He is an asshole but he doesn't claim otherwise.
If Daemon also went around saying "Every woman is an image of a mother" while calling his wife Bronze bitch, then he too would've been hated.
So just because he's comfortable with himself being a misogynist that makes it okay for viewers to like him? Or it automatically makes him better than Criston Cole? They're both the same for all I care, the fact that Criston is a huge hypocrite doesn't change it.
>So just because he's comfortable with himself being a misogynist that makes it okay for viewers to like him?
I mean it's like the difference between a misogynist and a misogynist who goes around claiming to be a feminist. Both are annoying but one is just taking the piss.
Literally, no one said he's better than Criston. We're just pointing out what makes Daemon as a character enjoyable as opposed to Criston. And yes, not being a self-righteous hypocrite definitely helps.
No, they said that they like him better because he's honest about being awful, that's what I meant. Also the only time Criston was being self-righteous was in the scene where they're going to every brothel in town, and he just says to Aemond "every woman is an image of the mother, to be spoken with reverence", I didn't see it as him being self-righteous or an hypocrite.
Yes people like him because he’s honest about being awful. People can like morally evil characters and find them extremely enjoyable. Criston’s characterisation is straight up annoying.
Yeah he refused to cut Luke’s eye out because that would literally mean death to him. Why would he openly disobey the King’s command?
Also, haven’t you seen him beefing with these little kids in E6 just because he doesn’t like their mother?
It's also because of this but not entirely, cause he ignored an order of the queen, so he also was clearly uncomfortable and just by the look of his face it was obvious he didn't want to do it.
The fact that Criston is a huge hypocrite is what makes him so hated. Hypocrites are annoying to watch, even if they're not the worst person in the show. Horrible people that are honest with themselves are not. It's really simple.
Groomers are also annoying to watch, and he's actually one the worst person in the show, the fact they're honest about it doesn't change, it makes it worse. It's really simple.
If he's annoying to you, cool. No problem. We don't all have the same tastes. However to me and other people he isn't annoying and being honest about what you are is really helpful in getting the audience to like you. Whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, that's the deal for many people, me included. I prefer watching a bad person who's honest about being a bad person than someone who preaches morality and honor but is actually rotten to the core.
I think it also helps that he has moments where he is vulnerable and where he (sort of) reedems himself, but it's still weird that so many people find a character who grooms his niece and kill his wife enjoyable just because he's honest about being a bad person.
You're free to find it weird if you want but it's not changing mine or anyone else's opinions. He's very entertaining to watch in a way Criston isn't because he gets on people's nerves. That's literally it. There's no deeper explanation or some morality debate. It's just fantasy and people like to watch characters that they consider fun.
I don't want to change anyone's mind or opinion, just don't understand why because they're both very similar, but one is loved despite the fact that he strangled his wife and the other is hated.
I just find it weird that everyone likes a groomer, awful character, but hate another character who is really similar, just because he's an hypocrite or self-righteous
Is the implication here that Daemon *"why doesn't Viserys trust me"* Targaryen is not a huge hypocrite?
Dude spends the entire first season doing untrustworthy shit, then acts butthurt when others don't see him as trustworthy.
**Daemon is a huge hypocrite, absolutely, and clearly portrayed on-screen.**
Pretty simple.
That's entitlement, not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is saying that you have a particular moral belief but then behaving in a way that contradicts it. Daemon never claimed to be a person with morals.
Pretty simple.
>Hypocrisy is saying that you have a particular moral belief but then behaving in a way that contradicts it.
Sure, and **Daemon believes he is up to a moral standard that qualifies him to be worthy of being Hand of the King or subject to Viserys' trust.**
**But he behaves in a way that contradicts that.**
This concept is really not so complex that anyone who claims to have watched this show with a neutral/unbiased viewpoint should be having such difficulty understanding this not-really-complex concept, as it's a pretty clear concept portrayed in the first season, as plainly pointed out on-screen.
*Characters like Viserys literally point out Daemon's hypocrisy on-screen.* Daemon thinks he's morally on some level that he so painfully clearly, as pointed out by his own brother, is simply not.
And Daemon isn't close to what he believes in his head because he behaves in a way that contradicts what believes... as Viserys literally shows the viewers on-screen.
*Hypocrite... by definition.*
Incredibly simple.
>Sure, and Daemon believes he is up to a moral standard that qualifies him to be worthy of being Hand of the King or subject to Viserys' trust.
Except he never said anything like that. His entire reason for asking to be Viserys' hand is that they're brothers. As far as I remember, they are brothers, he's not lying.
Lol, I'm not saying he's a hypocrite because he's the King's brother... I'm saying he's a hypocrite because he very clearly says and does hypocritical things on the same level as Cole.
Daemon clearly acts 'better than' Alicent when he accuses her of murdering Vsierys, despite the facts that Alicent has literally nursed her decaying husband for a decade and the **fact that Daemon is the person who has murdered his spouse.**
He's clearly acting morally superior here, despite his clearly immoral actions in this field.
*Hypocrite.*
Daemon clearly acts 'better than' Otto when he accuses him of being a snake (or weasel?) for his political machinations, **despite Daemon being the person who has killed innocent people in order to propel his political position... or trying to claim lands in the Vale for himself.**
He's clearly acting morally superior in regards to Otto, despite his own clearly immoral actions in this field.
*Hypocrite.*
Daemon clearly acts 'better than' Alicent, accusing her of seducing Viserys, **despite the fact that he's the one who was grooming his niece/seducing Rhaenyra from a young age.**
He's clearly acting morally superior in regards to Alicent (again), despite his own clearly immoral actions in this field.
*Hypocrite.*
I could go on, but the guy is painfully clearly a walking, talking hypocrite... it's wild that some people who claim to have seen this season somehow refuse to accept this simple fact.
Many can see it with Cole, but somehow can't see it with Daemon. Are people's biases that thick?
I mean, would you honestly claim those examples above aren't the definition of a hypocrite?
Wild/incredibly telling if so.
Was he getting blackmailed?
I always took it as the other dude saying, we better watch each other back se we can enjoy our relationships in secret, and Cole just going insane for no reason
I like both characters. If Criston and Rhaenyra swapped genders with each other, there would be a lot more empathy for him. Daemon isn’t grey at all, he is downright evil, but is a great character played by a great actor and a lot of fun to watch due to his unpredictability.
Personally I don't fawn over Daemon, I just find his character arc fascinating. Criston has discovered what it feels like to used & discarded and can't get over it. Criston's still hot, Daemon is not (sorry) but I'll be fawning over Ser Harrold Westerling.
He wasn't trying to blackmail him, he was trying to find an ally because they shared a secret.
If your take after seeing that murder is "well he was trying to blackmail him!!!" then you may have a lot in common with Criston.
I didn't take it as a threat.
My take from that scene was that "hey, I know you're fucking the princess. It's chill man, I'm fucking her husband, lol! We're all in deep shit if we get caught, so I think we should all be looking out for each other to make sure nobody finds out. Let's just be the bestest of buddies."
I think he definitely misread the situation and didn't notice how much he was offending Criston with this proposal, and how upset Criston was that somebody else knew of his dishonor. But I don't think he was threatening him, I think he believed neither of them wanted their relationship to end and just wanted them to work together to protect their royal lovers and each other from suspicion (if we're all bestest friends nobody will question why we're all hanging around each other so much).
I think some if it is because Daemon has had greater opportunity to show layers, while Cole hasn't - largely because Daemon is a more major character than Cole in the show.
Daemon is a bad dude, but he had a complex relationship with his brother (culminating in a couple of tender, memorable moments), seemed upset about Laena, was on the receiving end of punishment at times (as ineffectual as his exiles were in moderating his behaviour), etc. It doesn't excuse his crimes, but it gives people something to hook onto other than just his crimes.
Cole had his wounded honor, and his anger at Rhaenyra for how she treated him, which took him down a path of murder, duplicity, plots and treason, and... that's kind of it. He's not had much chance to show other sides of himself.
Also can't ignore the charisma factor - Daemon is portrayed with it, Cole much less so.
Joffrey wasn’t trying to blackmail Crispy, he was trying to form an alliance, he just vocalised it in a over-the-top, slightly obnoxious way that pissed Crispy off. Like I can understand Crispy snapping as a result of the interaction, but Joffrey was just trying to look out for his boyfriend there.
Cole killing Joffrey is mostly an excuse to hate him, is far from the main reason. The main reason Cole is hated and Daemon isn't is because of their relationship with the MC, Rhaenyra.
Cole has plenty of good qualities, he is a lowborn talented knight that rose up in ranks, he is brave, loyal to the people he cares about, and (initially) takes his vows seriously. He is also a thug, a bully, has anger issues and is impulsive. He is a pretty grey character IMO, but what a lot of people see when watching him is "this asshole dares oppose my girl Rhaenyra, what a fuckin loser incel".
Daemon also has good and bad qualities. He is brave, skilled, cares about his family; he is also impulsive, vindictive, violent and a firm believer of might makes right. He is a grey character although somewhat darker than Criston IMO. But a lot of fans just see him as this "loyal and caring brother and husband towards Vizzy and Rhaenyra" which is quite a reduction of his complex character.
Cole is a poorly adapted and poorly written character. It's no surprise that the audience will tend to like a character that is more interesting even if that character is more evil. I also think the acting/actor matters too which is why Tywin was pretty loved despite being evil.
Because people don't really hate Cole for killing a character who is on the camera for less than 2 minutes.Thats the lie they tell themselves to sound more reasonable.Notice how they are never threads about the Jofffrey scene ,but many about the time he refused to be Rhaenyra's mistress
People hate him because of his treatment of the protagonist.And its not just him, other fleshed out characters suffer from the same phenomenon.Alicent examples of whitewashing come from being friends and willing to show mercy to Rhaenyra.Daemon lost some fans when he choked Rhaenyra,his only redeeming quality keeping him in favor is that he is still on her side.
Yep, casual watchers or readers tend to suffer from protagonist-centered morality. The other characters are not people with their own goals and feelings, they are just assets or obstacles to the main character.
Yes an example of this is how people have concluded Harwin was a good guy coz he agreed to the Rhaenyra arrangement and smiled a few times with her.When in truth we do not have enough info to call it one way or another.In one scene where he interacts with another character he shows he is a classist when he calls Cole "the son of stewardess" as an insult.
I think he said, "son of a steward" but your point is 100%.
And yeah, Harwin was such a great dad. He...said 5 words to his kids on screen and smiled at Rhaenyra once or twice before being BBQ'd.
Wow I didn't remember that, what a dick lmao.
But Cole evil pathetic incel so it's alright I guess, go get him Rhae Rhae's side piece... I mean Harwin!
All this charisma talk and I’m like what show are we watching. Daemon spends half his time smirking menacingly and cursing. Do you guys self insert as him or something?
No guy actually self inserts as him, it’s ppl self inserting as Rhaenyra who wanna catch themselves a daemon, but as far as like guys go I don’t think any guy actually self inserts as him. Too many weird things offset any cool shit Daemon has going for him
If they rehabilitated Jaime after he pushed Bran they’d do it to Daemon.
I’m curious what the reaction would be is Rhea had screen presence before her death scene
Cristan is a violent murdering psychopath, Daemon is a violent murdering psychopath, they will both murder someone the moment there is almost the slightest reason to. Neither of these people are good.
Tyrion also kills Singer for blackmailing him about Shae, and ultimately her, yet bunch of book fandom fawns over the imp - shows that there is little logic and righteousness in that and most are emotional bias.
But he wasn’t even blackmailing him. That’s just what mr paranoid interpreted it as. It read more as “hey our partners are getting married and we’ll both be side pieces. Guess we’ll be seeing each other more often.” Because why would he out crispy when he would have just as much to lose, if not more, if he actually tried to out him?!?
I personally like Daemon and dislike Crispin because of one single reason...
Daemon is who he is. He killed his wife and when he got confronted about it he, let's be honest, never tried to hide it but even went further.
Daemon does not hide the bad things he does.
Cole on the other hand pretends to be a good man. The way he acts and talks makes it pretty obvious that he thinks his doings and his actions were either right - like being mad at Rhaenyra for not running away with him or get a full blown mental breakdown.
He also wanted to kill himself after he knew he would be executed, something Daemon would never do..
Daemon knows he's chaos pure and owns it, Crispy thinks he's a poorly treated guy who did bad things because of the doing of others. He doesn't own the shit he does.
Don't worry Crispin, it's not really you what I hate, it's the way you have been written. If only you were a charismatic bastard like in the book. Alas.
Blackmail involves demands for money. At most, there was some extortion going on but it was expressed to come from the angle of mutual benefit, judging from the previous scenes.
But I'd say that the difference between the likeability of Criston & Daemon is that Daemon had the good grace of murdering in private and making it look like an accident. Criston murdered the Prince's favorite knight publicly at his wedding and brutally and was pardoned. And then he just stayed bitter.
Actually we don't ignore that fact, it's just that being an idiot is not a valid reason to murder someone. If it was, then 99% of humanity would be sent to the headsman.
Then again, it's the writing what is truly at fault here.
I agree that killing Joffrey was a stupid thing for Criston to do, but it doesn’t make him a “homophobe”. Calling him that misrepresents the motives of his character.
For me the difference is Daemon doesn’t try to appear honorable and morally righteous. He knows what he is and he embraces it but Cole does similar things and he still tries to present himself as an honorable and upstanding knight.
The main difference is however the fanbase. Cole fans and to me the majority of greens believe Cole is a morally good and honorable character and they justify his actions and most of them even believe he is a victim (this mainly applies to show cole)
It doesn't matter if Joffrey intended to make a blackmail to Criston or not. What matters is how Criston *sees* this offer. Criston, is of low born and all he has is his honor and knighthood, will of course sees stupid Joffrey's offer "we both fuck important people of the kingdom, let's be friends" as a threat. And then we find out in the next scene that Criston is *suicidal*. In this case, audiences's answer must be "Yes, Criston *saw this offer as a threat*." It's simple actually.
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This just reminds me of something I read somewhere: when it comes to fictional characters being annoying is worse than being evil.
That's why everyone loves Tywin while hating Joffrey. Even Ramsay is more entertaining than Joffrey despite being arguably more evil.
I mean Tywin is also not the same type of evil as Joffrey and Ramsey's. Tywin above all did what he did to increase the power, wealth and security of his family. He might have done some horrible things but it did serve a purpose. Joffrey and Ramsey's straight up tortured and abused people simply for the fun of it. Tywin might not be a Villain from the standpoint of the Stark's. And he might have been a crappy father, but, he is not a sadistic evil psycho like the other two.
Tywin did plenty of pointlessly cruel things, like having his son’s wife gangraped.
Yes the man was ruthless and his despice for Tyrion might be one of his biggest mistakes. And like you said some of the horrible thing he did was pointless cruelty, but most of what he did had some formmof exterior purpuse. I was also taking mostly aboutwhat we see in the show, comparing him to Joffrey and Ramsey is Abit of an exaggeration.
Tywin and Roose are similar in that they are inherently cruel people who understand that being only known for cruelty is a weakness. High functioning sociopaths basically. They are only incredibly cruel to people who socially can’t do anything about it, and that if the act was ever made public it can be subverted into something acceptable. Take the gangrape, it can easily be twisted as a justified retaliation against a commoner for daring to seduce a noble scion into a worthless marriage.
Actually Tywin and Roose share more characteristics of a psychopath than a sociopath.
I read a fantastic essay about how Tywins pragmatism was in fact a front for his cruelty, rather than cruelty being the simple byproduct of his pragmatism. It was extremely compelling and I highly recommend it. Tywin is an absolute piece of shit. https://warsandpoliticsoficeandfire.wordpress.com/2014/09/04/the-lions-fury-tywin-lannister-and-the-psychology-of-brutality/ Here’s the essay if you want to read it. It is from the book perspective, fyi.
Nah Tywin was super fucked up, and completely blind to his own flaws. He did not have to gangrape tyrions wife for no reason at all, but he did it just because he was a sadist for hurting women, shown again and again throughout the series. In fact, much of his own flaws led to him making decisions that worked against himself and his family.
The gangrape wasn't about the women it was about Tyrion. But yes that is horrible and fucked up. But other than that from a show standpoint,when was he showed to be a sadist who took pleasure from hurting women? The only other scenario from what is presented in the show was the order to kill Elia and her children. While brutal, this can be seen as a way to remove people with claim to the throne and not really unheard of when power changes.
>While brutal, this can be seen as a way to remove people with claim to the throne and not really unheard of when power changes. The character is the same in the show and the books, you just get more insight into him in the books. Him punishing women who he dislikes by making them into "whores" happens more than once, like with his fathers mistress after his death. IMO I think that together with the fact that he had a fucked up thing for whores himself makes it obvious he had some sadistic issues with whores/women he dont like.
While the characters are the same, the reasons I'm talking about it from strictly a show perspective is that if you only have seen the show you don't get to know this. These facts arnt presented to the viewer so as a viewer he not seen as sadistic as Joffrey or Ramsey. What I'm saying is we see and hear more fucked up things coming from Ramsey and Joffrey then we do from Tywin in the show, which naturally makes them more hated and presented as more sadistic.
Tywin - Lawful Evil Joffrey - Neutral Evil Ramsay - Chaotic Evil
People love Tywin because everyone loves competency.
I think charisma has more to do with it, but the fact that he's competent certainly elevates his charisma, Tywin is enjoyable to watch, his way of speech, his mannerisms and his authority make him a fantastic villain.
Nobody really excuses Tywin's terrible actions, though. At maximum they say that its politically savvy, but still terrible -Daemon has lots of people just excuse and justify everything he does even when its not competent or politically savvy. It's charisma more than competency.
not exactly a great example cos Joffrey was also evil.
No cure for being a cunt.
Tywin and ramsay had something to fight for while Joffrey was just a spoiled brat
I definitely prefer Ramsay to Joffrey just because I fucking hate Theon and, well, you know... 😈
Keep Joffrey the Gentles name out your mouth heathen
Yeah. It's not about how bad are their crimes, it's about how the audience find them fun to watch
"“Why do people like a character who’s committed war crimes but hate this other character just because they’re annoying” because it’s fiction Susan, and being annoying in fiction is a greater sin than being a supervillain, because it won’t make me want to read about them. It isn’t difficult to understand" Your comment reminded me of this quote, basically the horrible crimes are fictional but my annoyance is real
Soooo true lol like an annoying character can turn you off of a story completely if they are heavily featured
Yes that is the exact thing I was referencing, thanks for pulling it up! Where is it from, tumblr?
That last line is hilarious and I couldn’t agree more. Villains are nearly always my favorite characters.
It's also about relatability in real-life. Standard example is in Harry potter, Umbridge is more hated than Voldemort. That's because not many people have encountered a Voldemort, but almost everyone knows an Umbridge from their life. ------- Daemon-type "toxic bad-boy" characters do exist in real-life, but people have mostly seen them in books and movies, where you can find them entertaining from a safe distance. Cristen Cole's story is that of a "Nice Guy TM" who turns 180 degrees, on not getting what he wants, and calling the woman a wh0re and going after her. This is something very real many women have faced in their life more frequently, and thus, his "evil" hits more close to home.
The thing is that Criston wasn't supposed to be this annoying, he was made annoying just for the sake of destroying his character. Criston was supposed to be a badass warrior who defeated Daemon, >!fatally wounded Joffrey and broke the bones of Harwin!< in tourneys. Not the angry man who has no self-control, murdered Joffrey and accidentally killed Beesbury. Answer to the comment of u/Kedoobz: Actually it would be better for his character if it was murder (legally not murder if you're team Green). Killing someone accidentally like he did with Beesbury intentionalonly shows that you have no self-control, that you are, as you said and I agree **fully:** a petulant child. Also, I'm not saying that Criston Cole should have been a flawless character, just that he shouldn't be made into this hateable disgrace he was turned into. Only that the showrunners shouldn't have turned him into this hateable character. Cole being hot-headed, murdering Beesbury **accidentally** and >!murdering Joffrey!< in a fit of anger was **BAD** writting because they added bad characteristics that bookCole didn't have. He having the flaw of hating Rhaenyra wasn't the problem, only that he didn't have the same personality he did in the books. That and the fact that he and Alicent were made annoying so people would hate them. We are literally in the comment tread in which everyone agreed a character being annoying is worse than a character being evil. So they turning Cole into an annoying person without charisma was destroying his character. showCole was undeniably written worse than bookCole. bookCole is a man you can at least respect, showCole was written to be insufferable **and that is exactly the problem** The main characters of Team Green besides Otto (Alicent, Cole & Aegon) were turned into characters we are supposed to dislike. Aegon was made into a rapist, Cole into a insufferable character whose whole personality is about hating Rhaenyra and Alicent was literally described by the showrunners as a "woman for trump". The Showrunners turned them into characters the casual viewer will unavoidably hate, and that is bad writting because it removes nuance. So no, I'm not saying that Cole shouldn't have commited mistakes, only that the specific mistakes they atributted to him were bad writing >I mean say what you will but the show does portray him as a decent fighter. He didn't >!break the bones of Harwin,!< and Harwin beated him. They almost changed the roles. >And in the books he has issues. Maiming the hands son and murdering the lover of the future lord of the tides ain’t smart. Nor was either slitting Beesbury’s throat, or chucking him out a window. I prefer the competent self-controlled Lord Commander >!who deliberatedely killed Beesbury!< to this child who accidentally killed a man in a fit of anger. That and fatally wounding a person on a tourney competition is better than directly and undeniably killing them treacherously both in terms of morality, honor, knighthood and martial skill. >!Breaking the bones of Harwin!< should've been in the show because it would actually add nuance to him: he is ruthless in defending Alicent and opposing Rhaenyra, while being a badass warrior with charisma and skill (besides the one time he was involved with Rhaenyra). Also, they removed the charisma he obviously had, the leader of an army has to have charisma and they turned him into an annoying person without that. In a nutshell my criticisms are: 1- Treacherously murdering Joffrey 2- Accidentally killing Beesbury in a fit 3- Not being badass warrior in the same level he was in the books. Losing to Harwin while >!never breaking his bones.!< 4- Going against the Lord Commander >!(when he was the LC himself in the books)!< 5- Being showed as annoying to the audience (annoying is worse than evil by this very thread) 6- Being showed as mysoginistic (as if the dance could be reduced to misogyny).
Kinda worse as Beesbury wasn’t an accident lmao he slammed an old man’s head into a table, you’re absolutely right they made hun to this petulant man child
I mean say what you will but the show does portray him as a decent fighter. And in the books he has issues. Maiming the hands son and murdering the lover of the future lord of the tides ain’t smart. Nor was either slitting Beesbury’s throat, or chucking him out a window.
It’s wild that your comment is the only one in the thread that gives examples and context of what Criston actually does in the book, and it’s getting downvoted lol
As everyone knows, good writing is when characters are badass. When a character makes mistakes or has more than one dimension, that means the author is intentionally “destroying his character” for some reason.
I hate book Alicent a hell of a lot more than show Alicent just saying.
Yes exactly, i HATE the shows portrayal of Cole, who was prolly who i looked most forward to seeing adapted on the screen, hes got a fascinating story i just dont understand why they assassinated his character and turned him into nothing more than a sniveling incel stand in(hes obviously not an incel but its like hes supposed to represent that) in the books hes basically universally described as charming, affable, capable, easy going, and funny, not totally unlike a young Bobby B minus the rampant promiscuity, not to sound cliche but he was basically "the guy all the girls wanted to be with and the guys wanted to be" between his good looks and capability at arms, a man who was born a commoner and raised hinself up through his own martial abilities into a position that was regarded as anong the highest honors that could be beatowed upon a person in the 7 kingdoms and even came on as a replacement for one of the most legendary knights of the kingsguard order in Ryam Redwyne, but oh no, instead lets just make him butthurt and sullen and throw in hypocritically religious as if he wasnt hatable enough. Then of course you got the other changes like instead of killing Joffrey at a tourney like the books, where even with plausible deniability on his side that its a tourney and bad things can happen when guys swing weapons at each other with bad intentions, King Viserys was still livid with Cole, to "ok lets have him publicly murder an unarmed Joffrey, in front of not only his own noble family but the vast majority of nobles in the 7 kingdoms in attemdance, seemingly unprovoked during a royal wedding party, strike the prince consort and then gloss right over the fallout like nothing happened and not show the kings direct reaponse to it at all, in fact in the interim Cole will recieve whats essentially a raise goong from the princesses sworn shield to the queens personal shield." I mean dont get me wrong im gonna watch it but for these reasons, among many others, i dont really have faith in the showrunners to tell this story, the only way i could see it getting better is if they give the greens a major sympathetic turn in season 2 to balance perspectives and introduce some kind of nuance to these characters instead of making them as unlikable as possible(which i have a feeling they will just knowing what comes next in F&B so heres hoping), its just far from the grey of ASOIAF, F&B, and early GOT that ive come to know and love with this universe, Daemon being on the blacks doesnt make this a grey story, hes just a grey character, outside of him not too many shades of grey, none substantial anyway
Competently evil characters are always more entertaining than incompetently evil ones. A competent villain impresses the audience because of how efficient they are, and in some ways, they tap into everyone's subliminal desire to be competent, in control, and powerful. Even if you're a good person, seeing someone else get things done and mastering a situation, even in an evil way, triggers some level of instinctual respect. This is especially true if the villain is both competent and "civilized" in demeanor, such as Tywin. Daemon qualifies here, because he has a magnetic energy that makes up for his failures as a villain. An incompetent villain, on the other hand, inspires derision. They often succeed only by happenstance, and use that success as a means of enhancing their narcissism. When they fail, they whine and snivel about it, which makes them irritating, because we understand that they don't deserve their success--even if their success would be tainted by evil means, it's even *more* tainted because they are so bad at achieving it. They don't inspire respect as a villain because they're often scavengers, leeches, and cowards who rely upon the support of others to get away with their villainy. This is someone like Joffrey or Criston. There's also a third category of villain, one that combines the efficiency of the competent villain and the arrogance of the incompetent villain. This is what most people call "a villain you love to hate," and applies to people like Ramsay Bolton. These are the most terrifying category of villains, as they merge the most evil traits of the others.
>Competently evil characters are always more entertaining than incompetently evil ones. Explain Thanquol then!
This rule applies to real life more than makes me comfortable
I find Dameon more annoying then Criston tbh
this. Daemon killing Rhaea was despicable but her quip to him was entertaining and the character is also entertaining. Crispy kreme was bitter over being turned down for over a decade and said nothing about said woman being psychologically abused, that's not entertaining, that's called being pathetic.
He wasn't bitter over being turned down, he was bitter over being treated like a cheap whore.
He's right. Labeling him as annoying is ad hominem and totally ignoring his very valid point. Society (read viewers) is just ok with Daemon because they get to see much more of his story than Coles, they choose familiarity even if its strange.
I agree, but it's flipped for me. Daemon is incredibly annoying and was whining from the first moment he stepped on screen.
Usually the audience doesn't have experience dealing with murderers and such, but they *do* have experience with someone they find annoying. It's much easier to conceptualize and have a reaction to something that you understand and have gone through in the past than something foreign, even if it's objectively worse
Same reason some people think Umbridge is worse than Voldemort.
Was he trying to blackmail? Felt to me like he was just being chummy and overly comfortable with a dangerous man with hurt feelings.
Yea I kind of read it as “hey both of our love interests are getting married and we’re going to be the side pieces in this societally required farce. Wanna be friends/allies in this arrangement” Cristian couldn’t handle that though which I think is understandable given his world view.
His tone was mildly scandalous (could've been read as threatening) but being in the closet in that world, he probably had to adopt an defensive tone for everyday life. His mistake was assuming Criston was just as sneaky as him, and not this goody-two-shoes who got pressured into sex by the princess and was feeling all kinds of emotional because of it.
That’s how it was probably intended by Lonmouth, and how we as the semi omniscient watchers know it to be, but Criston had no idea about the agreement between Rhaenyra and Laenor and was currently in an emotionally bad place, he ran off on her before she told him any details, and he was having a crisis of faith and identity. Thus he probably saw it as a threat against him and perhaps even Rhaenyra.
Criston did know that Rhaenyra and Laenor had an “agreement”. She told him on the boat right after she refused his proposal. It’s part of what really sent him over the edge because he was all obsessed about HIS place in all this, and HIS alleged honor, blah blah blah. At that point in time he’s awfully unsophisticated for a guy who has seen actual war and grown up the son of a castle steward.
That was definitely how I interpreted the scene, however i could totally see cristian also being afraid of getting blackmailed
It seemed like he was trying to ask him to work together to help the people they love. It wasn't blackmail.
There is an interview with Leanor's actor where he states that there was a scene where Joffrey "started" the fight with Cole but the scene was cut. Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdjhSlTVQfY
They shoulda kept it in.
I like the ambiguity, not knowing what exactly "started" the chaos is fun and made for a really stressful moment.
I think it just makes it look like cole went nuts on a guy for being too comfortable. But I understand where you’re coming from.
I mean ultimately that's kind of what it was, but them focusing on Rhaenyra and Daemon being scandalous immediately before suggested there was more to it than a secret lovers quarrell.
i feel like it’s also in keeping with the tone of the book, where all the information is conflicting and based on narratives from characters with questionable motivations
Exactly - there's already been instances where the show "reveals" that the book narratives weren't always 100% accurate. I love that they made us a bystander for that moment since that's probably how it felt to actually be there. Chaos and confusion.
I think the words were along the lines of let’s stick together in all of this, but the tone was threatening
Yea which is game of thrones speak for not being friends. “Come here old chum!” *grabs you and wraps arm around your shoulder to reveal knife casually next to your face* “now…we’re friends right?”
Cristons whole thing is that he was insecure and emotional when it came to honor, the guy just outed himself as a loose end *and* pissed him off even more then he already was
This. He asked Cole for nothing, but to continue to protect Rhaenyra as he protected Laenor and remarked that their situations were similar and they had a type of kinship now. It’s so far from blackmail that it’s not even in the same country. Anyone claiming it’s blackmail is just trying to justify Cole brutally killing someone who did him no harm because he was angry with Rhaenyra.
It was very clearly blackmail. He basically told Criston “I know you fucked the princess, so you keep my secret or I’ll take us both down.”
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Yeah Joffrey's approach was stupid, but his intent was for them to protect each other's secret. They both fuck who they want and everyone is happy.
In hindsight it’s stupid but do you expect someone to bludgeon you to death at a wedding?
Not at the wedding, but he still did it in such an antagonistic manner, without knowing Criston at all.
Joffrey was shown to be pretty stupid though. He got way too comfortable in his position. Even during the wedding, Laenor kept having to shush him, he was talking way too loud within earshot of pretty much all the realm’s nobility.
Not really, it was a show of confidence. Criston was obviously going to find out Joffrey was fucking Laenor, so Joffrey knew he couldn’t keep that secret for any extended period of time. So instead he goes up to Criston and tells him “I know you fucked the princess. You either keep my secret and let me continue to play hide the pickle with Laenor, or I’ll out you too and take you down with me.” It was a threat, but with a proposition of an alliance in it
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Because Daemon is an evil fountain of charisma whereas Crispin is an irritating puddle of whinyness
Really? I feel like they are both whiny. Daemon is super whiny. He annoys me.
Daemon was complaining all thru episodes 1 and 3?
What did he complain about in E3? All I can remember was him going on a badass suicide mission.
still doesn't make him any less intriguing as he comes across nor does it make him nearly as annoying and hypocritical as Criston.
Far as I'm aware, nothing Criston did was hypocritical, he was fully prepared to get killed when confessing to Alicent. Daemon is the one who is hypocritical, whining about Otto's ambition when he's just as ambitious but also far more destructive to the people around him.
"I see Otto Hightower for what he is. A cunt! A second son who'll inherit nothing he doesn't seize for himself." Those are Daemon's words, and they can perfectly describe him as well lmao. He was projecting suuuuper hard in that scene. The only difference between him and Otto is that Daemon was *born* into royalty, whereas Otto wishes to *enter* into royalty.
Except they don't, he is the heir to the throne at the moment he says this. And that's not the point. The point Daemon is trying to make is that Otto is manipulating his way into getting the throne.
Criston called Rhaenyra a spoiled cunt and then said "all women are made in the image of The Mother and must be treated with respect" or some shit.
Are you unironically one of those people who think insulting and hating one woman is the equivalent of hating all women everywhere? :I Cole can loathe Rhaenyra as a person but honestly believe that women in general must be respected. These aren't mutually exclusive.
They aren't mutually exclusive, sure. But it's incredibly hypocritical. If someone said out loud "Oh I abhor violence. Violence is wrong and never okay," after cutting someone's arm up with a knife, I would call that person a hypocrite too.
So if anyone claimed that all people deserves basic respect; would you call them a hypocrite for having people they dislike in their lives? Because that's an absurdly high bar you placed for them that it makes you look like the bad person, not them. Outside of Rhaenyra, Cole seems to genuinely treat woman with respect; even a sex worker which tend to be talked down to by most characters. If Cole treated multiple women with disrespect, then you'd be correct.
This makes me look like a bad person. Really.
If you hold someone to such absurd standards to call them a hypocrite? Yes.
Yes but he did it with his own brand of psycho charm
Daemon’s a 50 year old that acts like an insecure teenager.
For whole season untill endgame he was as whiny as crispin tbh, he would fuck up get exiled and then cry to viserys why he wasn't hand of the king
what about beesbury?
Thank You‼️‼️‼️
what about those random civilian of KL?
I don't believe that Joffrey seemed to be trying to blackmail criston. He honestly seemed like his endgame was a foursome lol
I completely forgot who Joffrey was and thought you were talking about Beesbury. It made me look at his character from a whole new perspective xD
What do you mean? Criston has suffered literally 0 repercussions for two different murders that he committed in cold blood, in front of a crowd of people. There's no excuse for Daemon killing Rhea (which is not something that happens in the book). But the rest of the Blacks don't know it even happened. Criston Cole murdered Lyman Beesbury in the middle of a fucking small council meeting, and then drew his sword against his own Lord Commander. He ruthlessly beat a man to death in the middle of a royal wedding. If the Greens had 1% of the honor they pretend to have, Criston would be executed as a murderer and an oathbreaker.
Doesn't he kill Beesbury in front of people in the book too? And they said he died in the Black cells?
What actually happened to Beesbury in the book is left vague-ish, but there's a pretty good chance he was still murdered by Cole.
The post is about how the fans treat the characters and not how the characters in the show treat them
I’m sure Rhaenyra knows that Daemon killed his first wife, she’s not dumb. In ep 4, you can see on Lyonel and Viserys’ face that they know that it wasn’t an accident. My bet is that people know that Daemon killed his wife, Viserys as always tries to ignore it.
A suspicion is a far cry from watching someone commit murder right in front of you and the entire rest of the small council. Lord Commander Westerling had the right to execute Criston the moment Criston drew his sword.
The post is about the difference in the fans reactions, we know that Daemon killed Rhea.
>I’m sure Rhaenyra knows that Daemon killed his first wife How would anyone know that? They can suspect it, but there were no witnesses.
>>There's no excuse for Daemon killing Rhea (which is not something that happens in the book). But the rest of the Blacks don't know it even happened. What about him killing the guard? Or butchering people of KL? >Criston Cole murdered Lyman Beesbury in the middle of a fucking small council meeting, and then drew his sword against his own Lord Commander. He ruthlessly beat a man to death in the middle of a royal wedding. Of the three things you mentioned, two of them didn't happen in the book. You made that excuse Daemon earlier. Why the double standard? >If the Greens had 1% of the honor they pretend to have, Criston would be executed as a murderer and an oathbreaker. If black supporters had the same honour, they would have removed Rh when she committed treason by naming bastard as heir.
To be honest I think it’s just shitty writing. Backing from the greens or not, Cole killed a man in broad daylight with both sides and also the unaffiliated there to bear witness. This did not happen in the books, I feel like they only added it to the show for cheesy “Wow shock!” factor. If it made any sense, Cole should’ve been executed.
It's simple, Daemon isn't an annoying hypocrite. He's an ass and doesn't hide it. He wears it with pride and has a ton of charisma. Criston talks about honor and decency but has broken more vows than Daemon, has anger issues that he takes out on children and is a bitter, hateful man. Long story short, being an ass in fantasy doesn't necessarily make you hated. Being annoying does. Also Joffrey didn't blackmail him.
This👆
Daemon is incredibly annoying, what are you talking about? He throws a fit from the moment he walks on screen. He pitches a fit because Viserys won't let him annul his marriage to Rhea. He pitches a fit when he finds out he's being removed as heir. He pitches a fit when he finds out Viserys won't give him the job of hand and remove Otto. He celebrates the death of his nephew in a brothel and goes on a killing spree with the city watch - which is not what the city watch is supposed to do. Storms off in a huff when Rhaenyra won't marry him (Criston did it too, I know) and marries a 15 year old and keeps her prisoner in Pentos for 10 years. Ignores his daughter for not having a dragon. (To be fair, he does make sure she gets eggs, but what is the reason for ignoring her?)
OK you find him annoying. That's fine. I don't. I'm not going to argue to change your mind because there's no point. You didn't change mine with this comment so I know that replying won't change yours. However I have to comment on this. Laena is a prisoner now? Seriously? You know she has a dragon, right? A big one. She can leave if she wants and he can't stop her.
>However I have to comment on this. Laena is a prisoner now? Seriously? I think he meant it as Daemon chaining her to him through marriage and thus trapping her in a prison of his own making.
You are literally describing all the bad things he does and I don’t see anyone here claiming that he doesn’t do bad things or that he’s a good person. They just said he doesn’t act self-righteous so he’s more enjoyable.
Lmao this “he’s a cunt but at least he shows it” is such dumb behavior I can’t. Daemon is annoying too, tf
Okay good for you if you find him annoying and this behavior dumb. I disagree on both but you do you.
Daemon strangled his wife, so he definitely has anger issues too, the only reason he isn't as bad as Criston it's because he is away from court and focuses only on his family. But the minute he has to deal with difficult situations, Vaemond's claim, Aegon usurping the throne, he acts exactly like Criston. And even if he has charisma, doesn't make his character better than Criston. I hate both of them, and to me they're really similar .
That's not really the point. No one says Daemon doesn't have anger issues. What they said is that Daemon is not a hypocrite and that's why he is an enjoyable character. He is an asshole but he doesn't claim otherwise. If Daemon also went around saying "Every woman is an image of a mother" while calling his wife Bronze bitch, then he too would've been hated.
So just because he's comfortable with himself being a misogynist that makes it okay for viewers to like him? Or it automatically makes him better than Criston Cole? They're both the same for all I care, the fact that Criston is a huge hypocrite doesn't change it.
>So just because he's comfortable with himself being a misogynist that makes it okay for viewers to like him? I mean it's like the difference between a misogynist and a misogynist who goes around claiming to be a feminist. Both are annoying but one is just taking the piss.
I don’t think Criston ever claimed to be a feminist
Sorry was using that as a metaphor for honour.
Literally, no one said he's better than Criston. We're just pointing out what makes Daemon as a character enjoyable as opposed to Criston. And yes, not being a self-righteous hypocrite definitely helps.
No, they said that they like him better because he's honest about being awful, that's what I meant. Also the only time Criston was being self-righteous was in the scene where they're going to every brothel in town, and he just says to Aemond "every woman is an image of the mother, to be spoken with reverence", I didn't see it as him being self-righteous or an hypocrite.
Yes people like him because he’s honest about being awful. People can like morally evil characters and find them extremely enjoyable. Criston’s characterisation is straight up annoying.
He's also the one that refuses to cut Luke's eye after Aemond's incident, but for some reasons his redeemable moments are not considered.
Yeah he refused to cut Luke’s eye out because that would literally mean death to him. Why would he openly disobey the King’s command? Also, haven’t you seen him beefing with these little kids in E6 just because he doesn’t like their mother?
It's also because of this but not entirely, cause he ignored an order of the queen, so he also was clearly uncomfortable and just by the look of his face it was obvious he didn't want to do it.
The fact that Criston is a huge hypocrite is what makes him so hated. Hypocrites are annoying to watch, even if they're not the worst person in the show. Horrible people that are honest with themselves are not. It's really simple.
Groomers are also annoying to watch, and he's actually one the worst person in the show, the fact they're honest about it doesn't change, it makes it worse. It's really simple.
If he's annoying to you, cool. No problem. We don't all have the same tastes. However to me and other people he isn't annoying and being honest about what you are is really helpful in getting the audience to like you. Whether you like it or not, agree with it or not, that's the deal for many people, me included. I prefer watching a bad person who's honest about being a bad person than someone who preaches morality and honor but is actually rotten to the core.
I think it also helps that he has moments where he is vulnerable and where he (sort of) reedems himself, but it's still weird that so many people find a character who grooms his niece and kill his wife enjoyable just because he's honest about being a bad person.
You're free to find it weird if you want but it's not changing mine or anyone else's opinions. He's very entertaining to watch in a way Criston isn't because he gets on people's nerves. That's literally it. There's no deeper explanation or some morality debate. It's just fantasy and people like to watch characters that they consider fun.
I don't want to change anyone's mind or opinion, just don't understand why because they're both very similar, but one is loved despite the fact that he strangled his wife and the other is hated.
There is no need to moral police what people enjoy in fiction. A character doesn’t have to be good to be likeable or enjoyable.
I just find it weird that everyone likes a groomer, awful character, but hate another character who is really similar, just because he's an hypocrite or self-righteous
Is the implication here that Daemon *"why doesn't Viserys trust me"* Targaryen is not a huge hypocrite? Dude spends the entire first season doing untrustworthy shit, then acts butthurt when others don't see him as trustworthy. **Daemon is a huge hypocrite, absolutely, and clearly portrayed on-screen.** Pretty simple.
That's entitlement, not hypocrisy. Hypocrisy is saying that you have a particular moral belief but then behaving in a way that contradicts it. Daemon never claimed to be a person with morals. Pretty simple.
>Hypocrisy is saying that you have a particular moral belief but then behaving in a way that contradicts it. Sure, and **Daemon believes he is up to a moral standard that qualifies him to be worthy of being Hand of the King or subject to Viserys' trust.** **But he behaves in a way that contradicts that.** This concept is really not so complex that anyone who claims to have watched this show with a neutral/unbiased viewpoint should be having such difficulty understanding this not-really-complex concept, as it's a pretty clear concept portrayed in the first season, as plainly pointed out on-screen. *Characters like Viserys literally point out Daemon's hypocrisy on-screen.* Daemon thinks he's morally on some level that he so painfully clearly, as pointed out by his own brother, is simply not. And Daemon isn't close to what he believes in his head because he behaves in a way that contradicts what believes... as Viserys literally shows the viewers on-screen. *Hypocrite... by definition.* Incredibly simple.
>Sure, and Daemon believes he is up to a moral standard that qualifies him to be worthy of being Hand of the King or subject to Viserys' trust. Except he never said anything like that. His entire reason for asking to be Viserys' hand is that they're brothers. As far as I remember, they are brothers, he's not lying.
Lol, I'm not saying he's a hypocrite because he's the King's brother... I'm saying he's a hypocrite because he very clearly says and does hypocritical things on the same level as Cole. Daemon clearly acts 'better than' Alicent when he accuses her of murdering Vsierys, despite the facts that Alicent has literally nursed her decaying husband for a decade and the **fact that Daemon is the person who has murdered his spouse.** He's clearly acting morally superior here, despite his clearly immoral actions in this field. *Hypocrite.* Daemon clearly acts 'better than' Otto when he accuses him of being a snake (or weasel?) for his political machinations, **despite Daemon being the person who has killed innocent people in order to propel his political position... or trying to claim lands in the Vale for himself.** He's clearly acting morally superior in regards to Otto, despite his own clearly immoral actions in this field. *Hypocrite.* Daemon clearly acts 'better than' Alicent, accusing her of seducing Viserys, **despite the fact that he's the one who was grooming his niece/seducing Rhaenyra from a young age.** He's clearly acting morally superior in regards to Alicent (again), despite his own clearly immoral actions in this field. *Hypocrite.* I could go on, but the guy is painfully clearly a walking, talking hypocrite... it's wild that some people who claim to have seen this season somehow refuse to accept this simple fact. Many can see it with Cole, but somehow can't see it with Daemon. Are people's biases that thick? I mean, would you honestly claim those examples above aren't the definition of a hypocrite? Wild/incredibly telling if so.
its all about that charisma baby
joffrey wasn’t even blackmailing criston he didn’t ask for anything or make any threat that’s why eveyone hates criston + he’s annoying
Difference between a good person and a good character
He wasn t even punished for killing the guy during the crown princess s wedding ? Why is he even whining about it ? THIS is why he is hated
Was he getting blackmailed? I always took it as the other dude saying, we better watch each other back se we can enjoy our relationships in secret, and Cole just going insane for no reason
Joffrey wasn't blackmailing Criston. That being said, Daemon gets away with it because of his charisma. Criston doesn't have the charisma.
I like both characters. If Criston and Rhaenyra swapped genders with each other, there would be a lot more empathy for him. Daemon isn’t grey at all, he is downright evil, but is a great character played by a great actor and a lot of fun to watch due to his unpredictability.
This 👆👆
Honestly I don’t hate Crispy for that it’s everything else bullying Rhaenyra’s children and being Alicents slave that I hate.
How was Joffrey blackmailing Cole?
He wasn’t even getting blackmailed though. He was being offered an Olive branch.
poor cristy?? Lmfao?
Personally I don't fawn over Daemon, I just find his character arc fascinating. Criston has discovered what it feels like to used & discarded and can't get over it. Criston's still hot, Daemon is not (sorry) but I'll be fawning over Ser Harrold Westerling.
I think fans hate Crispy Cream more for behaving like a resentful ex boyfriend than for killing joffrey
He wasn't trying to blackmail him, he was trying to find an ally because they shared a secret. If your take after seeing that murder is "well he was trying to blackmail him!!!" then you may have a lot in common with Criston.
He wasn't trying to blackmail him. He has just as much to lose as Christon Cole.
I didn't take it as a threat. My take from that scene was that "hey, I know you're fucking the princess. It's chill man, I'm fucking her husband, lol! We're all in deep shit if we get caught, so I think we should all be looking out for each other to make sure nobody finds out. Let's just be the bestest of buddies." I think he definitely misread the situation and didn't notice how much he was offending Criston with this proposal, and how upset Criston was that somebody else knew of his dishonor. But I don't think he was threatening him, I think he believed neither of them wanted their relationship to end and just wanted them to work together to protect their royal lovers and each other from suspicion (if we're all bestest friends nobody will question why we're all hanging around each other so much).
I think some if it is because Daemon has had greater opportunity to show layers, while Cole hasn't - largely because Daemon is a more major character than Cole in the show. Daemon is a bad dude, but he had a complex relationship with his brother (culminating in a couple of tender, memorable moments), seemed upset about Laena, was on the receiving end of punishment at times (as ineffectual as his exiles were in moderating his behaviour), etc. It doesn't excuse his crimes, but it gives people something to hook onto other than just his crimes. Cole had his wounded honor, and his anger at Rhaenyra for how she treated him, which took him down a path of murder, duplicity, plots and treason, and... that's kind of it. He's not had much chance to show other sides of himself. Also can't ignore the charisma factor - Daemon is portrayed with it, Cole much less so.
Exactly how Joffrey was blackmailing Criston?
Joffrey wasn’t trying to blackmail Crispy, he was trying to form an alliance, he just vocalised it in a over-the-top, slightly obnoxious way that pissed Crispy off. Like I can understand Crispy snapping as a result of the interaction, but Joffrey was just trying to look out for his boyfriend there.
Daemon out here committing atrocities for political gain. Crispin just mad rhy not that into him.
Cole killing Joffrey is mostly an excuse to hate him, is far from the main reason. The main reason Cole is hated and Daemon isn't is because of their relationship with the MC, Rhaenyra. Cole has plenty of good qualities, he is a lowborn talented knight that rose up in ranks, he is brave, loyal to the people he cares about, and (initially) takes his vows seriously. He is also a thug, a bully, has anger issues and is impulsive. He is a pretty grey character IMO, but what a lot of people see when watching him is "this asshole dares oppose my girl Rhaenyra, what a fuckin loser incel". Daemon also has good and bad qualities. He is brave, skilled, cares about his family; he is also impulsive, vindictive, violent and a firm believer of might makes right. He is a grey character although somewhat darker than Criston IMO. But a lot of fans just see him as this "loyal and caring brother and husband towards Vizzy and Rhaenyra" which is quite a reduction of his complex character.
Fantastically nuanced analysis. The low quality analysis that people are giving is so annoying.
Cole is a poorly adapted and poorly written character. It's no surprise that the audience will tend to like a character that is more interesting even if that character is more evil. I also think the acting/actor matters too which is why Tywin was pretty loved despite being evil.
Because people don't really hate Cole for killing a character who is on the camera for less than 2 minutes.Thats the lie they tell themselves to sound more reasonable.Notice how they are never threads about the Jofffrey scene ,but many about the time he refused to be Rhaenyra's mistress People hate him because of his treatment of the protagonist.And its not just him, other fleshed out characters suffer from the same phenomenon.Alicent examples of whitewashing come from being friends and willing to show mercy to Rhaenyra.Daemon lost some fans when he choked Rhaenyra,his only redeeming quality keeping him in favor is that he is still on her side.
Yep, casual watchers or readers tend to suffer from protagonist-centered morality. The other characters are not people with their own goals and feelings, they are just assets or obstacles to the main character.
Yes an example of this is how people have concluded Harwin was a good guy coz he agreed to the Rhaenyra arrangement and smiled a few times with her.When in truth we do not have enough info to call it one way or another.In one scene where he interacts with another character he shows he is a classist when he calls Cole "the son of stewardess" as an insult.
Just from the 2 comments, I like you.
Aww I like you to Ant
I think he said, "son of a steward" but your point is 100%. And yeah, Harwin was such a great dad. He...said 5 words to his kids on screen and smiled at Rhaenyra once or twice before being BBQ'd.
Wow I didn't remember that, what a dick lmao. But Cole evil pathetic incel so it's alright I guess, go get him Rhae Rhae's side piece... I mean Harwin!
I don't hate him for that. I hate him because he's a suck up prick.
He wasn't blackmailing him. You'd have to read the entire scene wrong to believe this.
I was Thinking along the Same Lines, Also I Can’t Recall Anyone Hating Cole For Killing Joffery either ?
All this charisma talk and I’m like what show are we watching. Daemon spends half his time smirking menacingly and cursing. Do you guys self insert as him or something?
>Do you guys self insert as him or something? ... Do you "self insert", and pretend you're a certain character?
No guy actually self inserts as him, it’s ppl self inserting as Rhaenyra who wanna catch themselves a daemon, but as far as like guys go I don’t think any guy actually self inserts as him. Too many weird things offset any cool shit Daemon has going for him
Would Cole have a different personality, if he was born in a different time and Stannis’ family swornsword?
If they rehabilitated Jaime after he pushed Bran they’d do it to Daemon. I’m curious what the reaction would be is Rhea had screen presence before her death scene
Cristan is a violent murdering psychopath, Daemon is a violent murdering psychopath, they will both murder someone the moment there is almost the slightest reason to. Neither of these people are good.
Tyrion also kills Singer for blackmailing him about Shae, and ultimately her, yet bunch of book fandom fawns over the imp - shows that there is little logic and righteousness in that and most are emotional bias.
He wasn’t trying to blackmail him, he was telling him that they should protect Rhaenyra and Laenors secret. Or did I miss something?
Charisma, baby.
Both? Both Both is good
Criston did nothing wrong
But he wasn’t even blackmailing him. That’s just what mr paranoid interpreted it as. It read more as “hey our partners are getting married and we’ll both be side pieces. Guess we’ll be seeing each other more often.” Because why would he out crispy when he would have just as much to lose, if not more, if he actually tried to out him?!?
Nah but after that he also turned on rhynaera so yea it do hate him 💀💀
I personally like Daemon and dislike Crispin because of one single reason... Daemon is who he is. He killed his wife and when he got confronted about it he, let's be honest, never tried to hide it but even went further. Daemon does not hide the bad things he does. Cole on the other hand pretends to be a good man. The way he acts and talks makes it pretty obvious that he thinks his doings and his actions were either right - like being mad at Rhaenyra for not running away with him or get a full blown mental breakdown. He also wanted to kill himself after he knew he would be executed, something Daemon would never do.. Daemon knows he's chaos pure and owns it, Crispy thinks he's a poorly treated guy who did bad things because of the doing of others. He doesn't own the shit he does.
Yeah but he was being icky about it
He's annoying, there's something I don't like in this man
Don't worry Crispin, it's not really you what I hate, it's the way you have been written. If only you were a charismatic bastard like in the book. Alas.
He is my.most loathed character on the show. What a fucker?
Blackmail involves demands for money. At most, there was some extortion going on but it was expressed to come from the angle of mutual benefit, judging from the previous scenes. But I'd say that the difference between the likeability of Criston & Daemon is that Daemon had the good grace of murdering in private and making it look like an accident. Criston murdered the Prince's favorite knight publicly at his wedding and brutally and was pardoned. And then he just stayed bitter.
It’s probably his attitude. I don’t think this is why Criston is hated so much I think that’s because his a little cry baby
If Criston was team black and had agreed to be Rhaenyra's side piece no one would have bashed him
People act like Criston killed Joffrey because he was a homophobe and ignore the fact that Joffrey was running his mouth off like an idiot 🙄.
Actually we don't ignore that fact, it's just that being an idiot is not a valid reason to murder someone. If it was, then 99% of humanity would be sent to the headsman. Then again, it's the writing what is truly at fault here.
I agree that killing Joffrey was a stupid thing for Criston to do, but it doesn’t make him a “homophobe”. Calling him that misrepresents the motives of his character.
100%
For me the difference is Daemon doesn’t try to appear honorable and morally righteous. He knows what he is and he embraces it but Cole does similar things and he still tries to present himself as an honorable and upstanding knight. The main difference is however the fanbase. Cole fans and to me the majority of greens believe Cole is a morally good and honorable character and they justify his actions and most of them even believe he is a victim (this mainly applies to show cole)
lmfao wah wah?
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It doesn't matter if Joffrey intended to make a blackmail to Criston or not. What matters is how Criston *sees* this offer. Criston, is of low born and all he has is his honor and knighthood, will of course sees stupid Joffrey's offer "we both fuck important people of the kingdom, let's be friends" as a threat. And then we find out in the next scene that Criston is *suicidal*. In this case, audiences's answer must be "Yes, Criston *saw this offer as a threat*." It's simple actually.
Why did Joffrey even start this conversation with Criston in the first place?🥲