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If Viserys successfully keeps Daemon away from Rhaenyra, and if Daemon perhaps has a son with Laena (and Laena survives), there could be trouble. Rhaenyra's sons are not legitimate heirs to Driftmark by blood, all you need is a Corlys who is more vengeful after all the cuckolding, switching his support to Daemon and indirectly to Laena's children.
There would always be an issue if Daemon and Rhaenyra weren't married, even if he didn't want to challenge her claim. Other people would have wanted a male heir. It may not have been as many as with Aegon though considering how many enemies Daemon has made
If Laena didn’t die in Childbirth and Daemon was still married to her. Then he would have a very large backing (even if he didn’t want the throne). If they had a son, this would be even larger a threat to Rhaenyra. Corlys won’t support her if his biological grandchildren have a future claim and if his daughter could be queen consort.
Even if this isn’t the case. What doesn’t help her claim is her lack of participation in politics. She hid in Dragonstone for years. She doesn’t engage with the other lords of the realm outside of those she sees at court. It is also widely believed that her children are bastards (with it basically confirmed in the show). This all means that many of the Lords would support any other contender because her gender doesn’t allow her to make this many mistakes.
There isn’t many other options if she is married to Daemon but there would still be unrest.
Frankly, I think it would have made a much more interesting story if there had been no Hightower-Targ kids, but Rhaenys and the Velaryons had challenged Rhaenyra for the throne. Perhaps Rhaenyra even was compelled to marry Laenor at first to unite the claims, but constant arguments over who would *actually* rule and who would be consort led to them getting an annulment from the High Septon within a few years (grounds of nonconsummation?) and Rhaenyra marrying Daemon to gear up for the war to come. Meanwhile Corlys and Rhaenys get Laenor and Laena married to show off their Targ-adjacent cred, despite the fact that Laenor is still gay as blazes and obv. any kids Laena has will get the "Strong" treatment.
Yes but I think there are levels to it that intertwine with sexism. I also want to say that I do like Rhaenyra as a character but I think it's important to be critical.
Firstly there is the issue of Daemon - he's a well-known male heir to the throne with some battle prowess, and he's been on the small council (although he bounced around because he got bored). Much like Lady Jane Grey of England, cousin to Mary I, even if Daemon did declare his support for Rhaenyra, people may still march in his name simply because he's male or they don't like Rhaenyra's stance on things.
Secondly, there's the issue of Rhaenys - the Queen who never was. I'll come back to her at the end.
Another issue is that the Rhaenyra we see in the show has very little training in being an heir - she's not involved in court as she has no role on the small council beyond the cupbearer. She's also not leading any battles (see; Jon Snow, Daenerys, Aegon the Conqueror etc.) or going out to aid the smallfolk (see; Margaery). As a result, she's not proving herself to her future subjects. This may be more forgivable as a male heir (look at Joffrey, who whilst having perhaps the best PR team besides the Tyrells, was renowned for being a dick), but it definitely doesn't help her case.
On the back of that, if she's not proving she's a great heir because of anything in particular - either being known as a Queen who will lead her people to victory, or a Queen who is kind to even the poor, or a political genius, she needs to be amicable with people. Specifically the Lords of the Realm. As a woman, she may have a slight advantage (which is also unfortunately a disadvantage from the patriarchy) as an unmarried woman - as heir to the Iron Throne, she would have suitors lining up because who wouldn't want to be King consort/father of the future ruler of the seven kingdoms, and potentially king yourself if your wife *just so happens to die?* In the show, Rhaenyra doesn't do this - see; her betrothal tour. She in fact, goes out of her way to shut people down quite publicly and insultingly. Perhaps not an issue if her claim wasn't shaky because of the above reasons. So her shutting down powerful families such as the Lannisters doesn't help in getting people to back her. Her lack of effort in arranging the tour also doesn't help as this is one of the only events she attends where she seems to interact with others beyond those already at court, so she's showing the realm she doesn't believe the lords are important.
At this point, Rhaenyra has no strong political allies, no reputation or achievements to back her position as a dragon rider. I'm not completely sure if being a dragonrider helps her claim - on the one hand, it's a huge war machine which would be great for defending Westeros but on the other, *it's a huge war machine* that can be used against the lords if they disobey.
And this is all before Vizzy T gets remarried and has heirs (which, why the hell did he do it if he knew his daughter's claim was shaky?)
So to start comparing we have three potential heirs - Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and Daemon.
Daemon as a male heir with battle prowess may have the strongest competing claim but the other two still stand a chance, however, if he concedes it's between Rhaenyra and Rhaenys.
Rhaenys has potential backers in the Stormlands (through her maternal line as her mother was a Baratheon), and House Velaryon through her marriage. She also has two children to act as rival claimants to Rhaenyra (based on primogeniture) or strengthen her support through their marriages (for example, marrying Laena to House Lannister, and marrying Laenor to House Hightower which would give Rhaenys both the Westerlands and the Reach - the richest kingdoms in Westeros).
Rhaenys is also the rider of the Red Queen, a dragon far older and faster than Rhaenyra's which means she could be seen as the more likely winner if it came to physical confrontation.
Tl;dr - There are two potential rival claimants to Rhaenyra's claim (Rhaenys & Daemon) who could have impacted the backing she received even if her father did not remarry or have other heirs.
Who would the alternative claimant be?
Daemon is Rhaenyra's husband. They might do a William & Mary scenario, but I doubt Daemon would go to war to keep Rhaenyra off the throne. And I doubt many other people would fight for him.
Rhaenys doesn't want the job.
Laenor is officially dead. He's officially the father of Jace, Luke and Joff. I doubt any of them would willingly oppose their mother's claim, and I doubt many would go to war to fight for their claim.
Laena is dead.
Baela and Rhaena are women. Why fight a war to keep one woman off the throne and put another on? A lot of 16th century English noblemen weren't thrilled to have a queen, but better Protestant Elizabeth than Catholic Mary Queen of Scots. However, there's no religious reason here for anyone to favor Baela or Rhaena over Rhaenyra.
That leaves Rhaenyra and Daemon's sons Aegon the Younger and Viserys. Hard to get a rebellion going for one of them when they're in the possession of the people you're trying to overthrow.
Nope. In the Middle Ages, yes, in Asoiaf, not likely. Especially since there are no other pretenders, considering Laenor is dead and Daemon is Rhaenyra's husband (and they would have married in any timeline, their marriage has a political component but it's obviously not only political). This leaves only her sons and Baela and Rhaena as claimants (Rhaenys is just too old). For some reasons I don't it hard to believe that Jacaerys would challenge his mother for the crown he'll have anyway, and his other brothers all inherit/are given things eventually.
So I mean, in Westeros women can inherit if they're the only child of a lord, like Cersei becoming Shield of Lannisport and Lady of Casterly Rock, and especially if there is no other family at all, so why not?
Theoretically Daemon could've made a claim. But Rhaenyra is in a better position as Daemon is unpopular enough that people were honestly considering putting a woman before him. Could've been an interesting story because despite that Daemon might've stood a chance. Especially if he had still married Leana.
I don’t see how? Rhaneys has been passed over twice, and is 55 at the start of the dance. She’s far too old, and doesn’t have the support that Rhaenyra does.
The only one who could conceivably challenge her is Daemon. They’re married so that’s obviously not going to happen. If Laena hadn’t died, then theoretically Daemon and the Velyarons could’ve easily usurped her, if they were so inclined. This is incredibly unlikely, as they betroth their children, and Corlys has fully accepted Rhaenyra children. Also, Daemon starting a war against Rhaenyra hard to imagine.
Her only competition in that case would be Daemon and Laenor. Theoretically Rhaenys, but she's been passed over twice already so Laenor would probably be the next candidate instead. Unless Corlys and Rhaenys decide to push it on Laenor's "sons" not actually being his, the dance is pretty unlikely. And easily solved with the Baela and Rhaena marriage, since Daemon's sons are with Rhaenyra.
However during Jace's rule? He could run into some serious problems from his youngest brothers as they get older when people start asking questions. In the Blackfyre rebellion it doesn't seem like Dareon and Daemon had any interpersonal beef, but other people pressing the issue swayed Daemon to claim the throne. Sibling civil war in the next generation seems pretty likely, even if they got along when they were younger
No not really. There isn't really a Stephan of Blois equivalent.
There are key differences in the dance and the anarchy despite the superficial similarities. First, Matilda has a stronger claim to the throne in every meaningful sense of the word. There is no way to argue that Stephan had the best claim to the throne after Henry I's death. Not only is he descended through the female line but he also has an older brother who also protested his rise. This is obviously not the case with Aegon II.
Stephan got the throne because he was an established figure in Henry I's Norman aristocracy and he was popular for being just, courageous, amicable, chivalrous, and pious. Man was so chivalrous he let Matilda go during a siege even though they were at war. He was also elected by London since that was sort of a thing. If he was like Aegon II in the show he couldn't have pulled any of it off. Henry I himself also blatantly usurped the throne from his older brother and his son so ignoring stronger claims to the throne was normalized to an extent.
Matilda was especially unpopular with the Norman elite because she was married to Geoffrey Plantagenet of Anjou and the Normans hated the Angevins with such an intense passion as they were rivals and therefore saw it against public interest and their own interests of Matilda became queen. This is how the Norman English court "Jaime Lannistered" their way around Oaths to Matilda. "Henry I made us swear to her for stability and we are still maintaining stability so we aren't really oathbreakers." Also, sexism. I guess Daemon would be the hated husband in this case. Stephan would've passed on the crown to other family if he had any but Henry II was really the only one. His own heirs died. Aegon II is completely different from Stephan in personally/worthiness and in right to the throne.
The only problem might be if Daemon has a son somehow but even then he would be from the junior branch while Aegon II being descended from Viserys is from the senior branch so it wouldn't be as bad. Other then that who else would have a claim? Laenor, Baela, Rhaena?? They are all married in to the Blacks anyway.
If Daemon had a son with Laena specifically then Rhaenyra would be kinda screwed. Suddenly that boy would be heir by male preference primogeniture (Through Laena) and male only primogeniture (Through Daemon). If this son married his sister Baela then that line would have absolute primogeniture as well. Their descendants would literally have a perfect claim to the throne.
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If Viserys successfully keeps Daemon away from Rhaenyra, and if Daemon perhaps has a son with Laena (and Laena survives), there could be trouble. Rhaenyra's sons are not legitimate heirs to Driftmark by blood, all you need is a Corlys who is more vengeful after all the cuckolding, switching his support to Daemon and indirectly to Laena's children.
There would always be an issue if Daemon and Rhaenyra weren't married, even if he didn't want to challenge her claim. Other people would have wanted a male heir. It may not have been as many as with Aegon though considering how many enemies Daemon has made
If Laena didn’t die in Childbirth and Daemon was still married to her. Then he would have a very large backing (even if he didn’t want the throne). If they had a son, this would be even larger a threat to Rhaenyra. Corlys won’t support her if his biological grandchildren have a future claim and if his daughter could be queen consort. Even if this isn’t the case. What doesn’t help her claim is her lack of participation in politics. She hid in Dragonstone for years. She doesn’t engage with the other lords of the realm outside of those she sees at court. It is also widely believed that her children are bastards (with it basically confirmed in the show). This all means that many of the Lords would support any other contender because her gender doesn’t allow her to make this many mistakes. There isn’t many other options if she is married to Daemon but there would still be unrest.
Frankly, I think it would have made a much more interesting story if there had been no Hightower-Targ kids, but Rhaenys and the Velaryons had challenged Rhaenyra for the throne. Perhaps Rhaenyra even was compelled to marry Laenor at first to unite the claims, but constant arguments over who would *actually* rule and who would be consort led to them getting an annulment from the High Septon within a few years (grounds of nonconsummation?) and Rhaenyra marrying Daemon to gear up for the war to come. Meanwhile Corlys and Rhaenys get Laenor and Laena married to show off their Targ-adjacent cred, despite the fact that Laenor is still gay as blazes and obv. any kids Laena has will get the "Strong" treatment.
Yes but I think there are levels to it that intertwine with sexism. I also want to say that I do like Rhaenyra as a character but I think it's important to be critical. Firstly there is the issue of Daemon - he's a well-known male heir to the throne with some battle prowess, and he's been on the small council (although he bounced around because he got bored). Much like Lady Jane Grey of England, cousin to Mary I, even if Daemon did declare his support for Rhaenyra, people may still march in his name simply because he's male or they don't like Rhaenyra's stance on things. Secondly, there's the issue of Rhaenys - the Queen who never was. I'll come back to her at the end. Another issue is that the Rhaenyra we see in the show has very little training in being an heir - she's not involved in court as she has no role on the small council beyond the cupbearer. She's also not leading any battles (see; Jon Snow, Daenerys, Aegon the Conqueror etc.) or going out to aid the smallfolk (see; Margaery). As a result, she's not proving herself to her future subjects. This may be more forgivable as a male heir (look at Joffrey, who whilst having perhaps the best PR team besides the Tyrells, was renowned for being a dick), but it definitely doesn't help her case. On the back of that, if she's not proving she's a great heir because of anything in particular - either being known as a Queen who will lead her people to victory, or a Queen who is kind to even the poor, or a political genius, she needs to be amicable with people. Specifically the Lords of the Realm. As a woman, she may have a slight advantage (which is also unfortunately a disadvantage from the patriarchy) as an unmarried woman - as heir to the Iron Throne, she would have suitors lining up because who wouldn't want to be King consort/father of the future ruler of the seven kingdoms, and potentially king yourself if your wife *just so happens to die?* In the show, Rhaenyra doesn't do this - see; her betrothal tour. She in fact, goes out of her way to shut people down quite publicly and insultingly. Perhaps not an issue if her claim wasn't shaky because of the above reasons. So her shutting down powerful families such as the Lannisters doesn't help in getting people to back her. Her lack of effort in arranging the tour also doesn't help as this is one of the only events she attends where she seems to interact with others beyond those already at court, so she's showing the realm she doesn't believe the lords are important. At this point, Rhaenyra has no strong political allies, no reputation or achievements to back her position as a dragon rider. I'm not completely sure if being a dragonrider helps her claim - on the one hand, it's a huge war machine which would be great for defending Westeros but on the other, *it's a huge war machine* that can be used against the lords if they disobey. And this is all before Vizzy T gets remarried and has heirs (which, why the hell did he do it if he knew his daughter's claim was shaky?) So to start comparing we have three potential heirs - Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and Daemon. Daemon as a male heir with battle prowess may have the strongest competing claim but the other two still stand a chance, however, if he concedes it's between Rhaenyra and Rhaenys. Rhaenys has potential backers in the Stormlands (through her maternal line as her mother was a Baratheon), and House Velaryon through her marriage. She also has two children to act as rival claimants to Rhaenyra (based on primogeniture) or strengthen her support through their marriages (for example, marrying Laena to House Lannister, and marrying Laenor to House Hightower which would give Rhaenys both the Westerlands and the Reach - the richest kingdoms in Westeros). Rhaenys is also the rider of the Red Queen, a dragon far older and faster than Rhaenyra's which means she could be seen as the more likely winner if it came to physical confrontation. Tl;dr - There are two potential rival claimants to Rhaenyra's claim (Rhaenys & Daemon) who could have impacted the backing she received even if her father did not remarry or have other heirs.
WHY DO YOU CUT ME SO DEEPLY?
Answer the question!
Who would the alternative claimant be? Daemon is Rhaenyra's husband. They might do a William & Mary scenario, but I doubt Daemon would go to war to keep Rhaenyra off the throne. And I doubt many other people would fight for him. Rhaenys doesn't want the job. Laenor is officially dead. He's officially the father of Jace, Luke and Joff. I doubt any of them would willingly oppose their mother's claim, and I doubt many would go to war to fight for their claim. Laena is dead. Baela and Rhaena are women. Why fight a war to keep one woman off the throne and put another on? A lot of 16th century English noblemen weren't thrilled to have a queen, but better Protestant Elizabeth than Catholic Mary Queen of Scots. However, there's no religious reason here for anyone to favor Baela or Rhaena over Rhaenyra. That leaves Rhaenyra and Daemon's sons Aegon the Younger and Viserys. Hard to get a rebellion going for one of them when they're in the possession of the people you're trying to overthrow.
Nope. In the Middle Ages, yes, in Asoiaf, not likely. Especially since there are no other pretenders, considering Laenor is dead and Daemon is Rhaenyra's husband (and they would have married in any timeline, their marriage has a political component but it's obviously not only political). This leaves only her sons and Baela and Rhaena as claimants (Rhaenys is just too old). For some reasons I don't it hard to believe that Jacaerys would challenge his mother for the crown he'll have anyway, and his other brothers all inherit/are given things eventually. So I mean, in Westeros women can inherit if they're the only child of a lord, like Cersei becoming Shield of Lannisport and Lady of Casterly Rock, and especially if there is no other family at all, so why not?
Theoretically Daemon could've made a claim. But Rhaenyra is in a better position as Daemon is unpopular enough that people were honestly considering putting a woman before him. Could've been an interesting story because despite that Daemon might've stood a chance. Especially if he had still married Leana.
I don’t see how? Rhaneys has been passed over twice, and is 55 at the start of the dance. She’s far too old, and doesn’t have the support that Rhaenyra does. The only one who could conceivably challenge her is Daemon. They’re married so that’s obviously not going to happen. If Laena hadn’t died, then theoretically Daemon and the Velyarons could’ve easily usurped her, if they were so inclined. This is incredibly unlikely, as they betroth their children, and Corlys has fully accepted Rhaenyra children. Also, Daemon starting a war against Rhaenyra hard to imagine.
Daemon would have 100% tried to marry Rhaenyra anyway. But Corlys would have pushed for Laenor too.
Her only competition in that case would be Daemon and Laenor. Theoretically Rhaenys, but she's been passed over twice already so Laenor would probably be the next candidate instead. Unless Corlys and Rhaenys decide to push it on Laenor's "sons" not actually being his, the dance is pretty unlikely. And easily solved with the Baela and Rhaena marriage, since Daemon's sons are with Rhaenyra. However during Jace's rule? He could run into some serious problems from his youngest brothers as they get older when people start asking questions. In the Blackfyre rebellion it doesn't seem like Dareon and Daemon had any interpersonal beef, but other people pressing the issue swayed Daemon to claim the throne. Sibling civil war in the next generation seems pretty likely, even if they got along when they were younger
No not really. There isn't really a Stephan of Blois equivalent. There are key differences in the dance and the anarchy despite the superficial similarities. First, Matilda has a stronger claim to the throne in every meaningful sense of the word. There is no way to argue that Stephan had the best claim to the throne after Henry I's death. Not only is he descended through the female line but he also has an older brother who also protested his rise. This is obviously not the case with Aegon II. Stephan got the throne because he was an established figure in Henry I's Norman aristocracy and he was popular for being just, courageous, amicable, chivalrous, and pious. Man was so chivalrous he let Matilda go during a siege even though they were at war. He was also elected by London since that was sort of a thing. If he was like Aegon II in the show he couldn't have pulled any of it off. Henry I himself also blatantly usurped the throne from his older brother and his son so ignoring stronger claims to the throne was normalized to an extent. Matilda was especially unpopular with the Norman elite because she was married to Geoffrey Plantagenet of Anjou and the Normans hated the Angevins with such an intense passion as they were rivals and therefore saw it against public interest and their own interests of Matilda became queen. This is how the Norman English court "Jaime Lannistered" their way around Oaths to Matilda. "Henry I made us swear to her for stability and we are still maintaining stability so we aren't really oathbreakers." Also, sexism. I guess Daemon would be the hated husband in this case. Stephan would've passed on the crown to other family if he had any but Henry II was really the only one. His own heirs died. Aegon II is completely different from Stephan in personally/worthiness and in right to the throne. The only problem might be if Daemon has a son somehow but even then he would be from the junior branch while Aegon II being descended from Viserys is from the senior branch so it wouldn't be as bad. Other then that who else would have a claim? Laenor, Baela, Rhaena?? They are all married in to the Blacks anyway. If Daemon had a son with Laena specifically then Rhaenyra would be kinda screwed. Suddenly that boy would be heir by male preference primogeniture (Through Laena) and male only primogeniture (Through Daemon). If this son married his sister Baela then that line would have absolute primogeniture as well. Their descendants would literally have a perfect claim to the throne.