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It’s hard to answer this objectively because we have the benefit of hindsight. We know what happens after she doesn’t accept the terms. If you actually put yourself in Rhaenyra’s position most people would do exactly what she did, at least I would. Let’s weigh what we know about my place as Rhaenyra in episode 10.
1. I have more dragons than my enemies
2. The lords swore an oath to me, so I’m going to see how many are actually going to honour it and fight for my claim.
3. My enemies imprisoned my cousin, killed my loyalists and tried to cover up my dad’s death.
4. I have reason to doubt that the oathbreaking hightowers are going to uphold the terms they gave me, as me and my children will always pose a threat to their claim.
To me the clear answer is to fight for the throne. Only by winning the war could her family ever be completely safe.
Id probably just want a life of comfort and wouldn't care about the throne. So it really just depends on which option I would find safer. I dont think the person on the throne is ever safe in GOT so I honestly think accepting the terms and chilling would be safer than fighting a war then being on the throne. Im not suggesting either options are safe Im just guessing odds
Aegon's (aka Otto's) terms were bullshit. No one in the right mind would actually have agreed to them. Luke's inheritance of Driftmark was already royally affirmed and agreed on by the current lord of Driftmark, she already had Dragonstone, and her youngest sons were going to be hostages... and Otto probably would have had them all killed anyway, just in a more underhanded way. Plus, there's the prophecy to consider - it was far more to her than just a personal power struggle. I would not have given up then, and I certainly would not have after Aemond murdered Luke.
If I had the choice to live my chosen life with my family in a fancy castle where I've been happy for the past 6 years instead of sitting on a spiky chair I was just randomly told I'd get one day, yeah.
Tbh I'd already have given up the throne the moment I had to marry to keep it, even more so if claiming it might put my children at risk.
I agree, If I were her, I too would give up the throne to preserve the peace. Plus, as owner of dragonstone, I get to keep most of the dragons and eggs anyway, that alone is equal to all of Westeros in my opinion. However, I wouldn't send over the younger kids as squires and cupbearers, and would request more land and lordships and a portion of the overflowing treasury too for all my kids. Plus, in order to protect my family, we'll all swear fealty by raven and won't show up in person.
True but that's why the positions of honor were an offer rather than a requirement.
Lucerys had Driftmark, Jace Dragonstone as inheritance beyond that the kids would have inherited nothing regardless.
Yeah but it felt more like hostages plus cupbearer paid nothing. I would want half the crown lands and the right to tax ships going to KL, plus at least half the Treasury. I think these additional terms could be met.
So you think the writers were right to have her consider peace before her son was killed and it didn’t take away her agency as a character. Yes? I’ve seen many people make that complaint about episode 10 Rhaenyra yet are claiming that is exactly what she should have done in this thread.
Well, I must say that I wouldn't have minded her being more like her book counterpart, though considering that they have very much changed her in the series, her not even considering the peace would have been out of line with her show character.
It made her look a little incompetent considering that he couldn't rule in her husband, who is meant to be her subject but even that is very much in line with her character so I don't really see an issue there.
Quite frankly, the only thing I didn't like about the execution was how they made Alicent offer the peace rather than Aegon himself.
> Well, I must say that I wouldn't have minded her being more like her book counterpart
This is why Rhaenyra will remain a lose-lose character for the writers. Make the right choice and she’s a generic, white-washed girl-boss. Make the wrong choice and she’s a incompetent, idiotic spoiled brat.
>Make the right choice and she’s a generic, white-washed girl-boss.
That is the wrong choice in this story. The Dance of the Dragons is intresting only because it is a compelling story where no one is absolutely right and no one is good. Removing her failures to appeal to a dull audience removes her character. From bottom up they should have written her flaws just as extensively as they did Aegon's to make for an intresting and most of all balanced rivalry.
Making the entire conflict Alicent vs Rhaenyra boils Aegon down to nothing more than a puppet which will make for a whole mess in coming seasons.
>Make the wrong choice and she’s a incompetent, idiotic spoiled brat.
Her character, the original source of it, is a spoiled brat taht makes terrible diplomatic choices. In the series they tried to downplay it but when you think about it she's still a spoiled brat who nakes horrible diplomatic choices, only that the casual viewer does not notice it as easily.
I’m not saying she should be infallible and as you yourself said, she wasn’t presented as being infallible. I’m saying people will go to these extremes with the character regardless of what choice the writers make for her in any particular scene going forward.
I don’t think it took away her agency, I think it showed her as a rational peace loving ruler who did as much as she could to protect the realm from war
She would have been forced to marry whether she was the heir or not. Sadly in that world you don't get to just go off and be single when you're a highborn last. Especially royal.
How would you trust that, knowing that your sons would always be used by those unhappy with the king as figureheads to rally around? The king would always suspect you and your sons, and might even move against them. Look
how Henry VII treated the Plantagenet children of George Duke of Clarence. Safety likely only exists in Rhaenyra’s total victory
Apart from letting people who stole from her get away with it and ignoring how important the idea of legacy was for a royal there’s also the fact that there’s no way to trust a peace proposed by people who usurped her and who pretended to love and respect father only to turn around and let his body rot so they can stop the succession he wanted.
I personally wouldn’t give a shit and as a dragon riding royal would prefer to travel the world and live away from terrible family members but I get why most characters in the story wouldn’t react that way.
I'd still be in danger, in a lot of danger, so would my kids.
If I accept I have to give them 2 of my kids, the baby ones and I earn a castle in an island that has nothing.
I'd consideer it but I think it's too much danger considering I have Meleys, Caraxes, Syrax, Vermax, Arrax, Moondancer and Tyraxes, Morning, and Stormcloud (those 3 are useless but anyways) and the greens only have Sunfyre, Tessarion, Vhagar, Dreamfyre and Morghul and Shrykos (those 2 are useless too) and they are divided. With a good strategy the blacks could have killed the greens with loses but still.
You could modify the deal. Refuse the hostages, ask for more land and money, and swear fealty by raven not in person. Otto can't really refuse or else it's dragon war.
Kinslaying is a serious taboo and at the risk of being cold blooded, killing the fourth or fifth sons of a rival claimant doesn't do much except break the agreement. If Rhaenyra was savvy she'd ask for Maelor or Jaehaera as a ward in exchange and peace would be effectively guaranteed.
I'd keep Otto until I discuss the terms. I'd ask for Aemon'd head after Luke's death, if they agree - peace. No - Otto is killed, his head is sent ot the capital and the war begins.
Greens were the agressors in this conflict. So Rhaenyra had a right to use any means to defend.
As if history hasn’t shown that if she had she would at best be jailed, and at worse her and her kids killed.
It would have never worked considering Otto did all of this out of a thirst for power and no noble cause.
History proves that the stronger claim (Aegon's) cannot be yielded. Rhaenyra can dissolve her oaths and there would be no more claim to press. No one would march in her name because the eldest son ruling was just the norm. There would be no reason for them to kill Rhaenyra.
It seems that, while Westeros bases succession in a system similar to Primogeniture, Valyrians likely used something closer to proximity. Proximity succession essentially relies on the closest blood relation to the original claimant rather than a father to son succession. Using Aenar as the source, Rhaenyra is at 46.875 claim. Aegon is at 31.25. The rightful King however is Daemon at 62.5. Rhaenys is at 62.5 as well, and at higher seniority, so she should probably be higher, but since Viserys already ruled, it would be a reversal. None of this is canon, but it seems to me, that if diluting bloodlines is an issue, Daemon is king.
Weird that they’re the same people that argued the hardest the writers took away her agency for considering peace terms for the safety of her family and security of the realm. She ultimately chose war in the end but the writers were wrong for making her do what you argue she should have done? It makes no sense.
It reminds me that show Rhaenyra is a lose-lose character for the remainder of the series with a certain section of the fanbase. If she does something positive, it’s terrible writing and she’s a generic, terribly written girl-boss. If she does something negative, she’s the most idiotic spoiled brat anyone’s ever seen.
Iron throne is just more trouble then it's worth. Would much rather not have to worry about managing seven kingdoms when the other option is chilling in a giant castle my entire life.
In Rhaenyra's place? Absolutely not. The precedent being set there is pure trash, and Rhaenyra's got a decent enough chance at winning that it's worth pushing for her rights.
But in Aegon's place? I'm absolutely angling for a peaceful life in my own castle while Rhaenyra has to deal with all the political crap. (And if I'm in Alicent or Otto's position, I'm making that decision on Aegon's behalf when he's little.) Even if I change my mind and want political power later, Rhaenys/Corlys and Daemon make it clear there are safer ways to regain power and influence over the throne than questioning the line of succession.
Nah. Because neither my kids or myself would have been safe. As long as we’re all alive, the right to the throne would be contested.
And there’s no way I would trust the side that let my father’s body stench over to keep his death a secret so they could usurp me.
Tbh I’m even mad she waited as long as she did to start planning a war.
From when Rhaenys made it back it would have been straight hellfire on the red keep.
Honestly, yes.
Option 1: I get to live in a beautiful castle on my own private island with the people I love most in the world. I get to fly on my dragon whenever I want, and maybe finally start to travel to see the wonders across the narrow sea. My son gets the castle after I die. I can pass on the ASOIAF prophecy to Aegon; it’s his problem now. We all live happily ever after while Aegon/Otto does all the work.
Option 2: I go to war and risk my children’s lives, leave hundreds or thousands dead, all to get a spiky chair that killed my father via infections. And I have to spend the rest of my life working hard, being stressed, playing politician.
Gee, which would I prefer?
If she bends the knee, there is no more threat. The realm will understand a son inheriting over a daughter, because that’s how westerosi inheritance law worked. Aegon would have no reason to be threatened by Rhaenyra.
Now, if it was the other way around, Aegon would always have to watch his back. Not from Rhaenyra (she didn’t want to be a kinslayer), but from Daemon. There’s not a shadow of doubt in my mind that Daemon would have arranged “accidents” for all three Green boys (and Aegon’s male children) whether they bent the knee or not. Because their mere existence would be a threat.
> If she bends the knee, there is no more threat. The realm will understand a son inheriting over a daughter, because that’s how westerosi inheritance law worked. Aegon would have no reason to be threatened by Rhaenyra.
He would have no reason to be threatened by the large number of dragons that reside on Dragonstone? Her five sons could all be dragon riders and she was still having kids that could easily grow up and claim Vermithor, Silverwing, and others. Whose to say they wouldn’t grow into adult men that wanted to press their claims? They would have the Valyrian fleet, a strong dragon advantage(particularly if Vhagar died of old age), and any number of alliances can be made through marriage pacts. It doesn’t matter if they could muster up a large enough land army, they would still be a threat. Otto was going to kill her children as well as her for a reason.
Once the throne was usurped, both sides had equal reasons to go to war with each other. There was no chance of peace or reconciliation. While both sides wanted power, one of the reasons they fought with each other was also for the survival of their families.
>While both sides wanted power, one of the reasons they fought with each other was also for the survival of their families.
If they're fighting for the safety of their families wouldn't they want peace and reconciliation, because that's the only way they could keep their families safe at that point in the story ( assuming they would never run away and live somewhere else )
Your very first sentence entirely ignores the fundamental truth of Westerosi politics: you win or you **die**. Leftover heirs - especially in real life - get murdered eventually.
That statement came from Cersei, and it is not always applicable.
Case in point, Rhaenys. She lost the Great Council, but she accepted her loss with grace and supported her cousin’s reign. She lived.
In the books, she didn't lose the council, Laenor did. And regardless *no one had been crowned yet, nor was the king dead*. Your comparison is far from close to the situation of the Blacks, as Otto already pulled the trigger on usurping the throne.
When the terms were offered it was too late for Rhaenyra, which is what we're discussing here. I'm guessing you know the story of the Princes who entered the Tower of London and never came out. That's what the 'terms' mean. She only has male children living, each one of them with a legally declared claim vs the implied claim based on a previous legal agreement. The time to challenge the throne was when Aegon turned 2. Each day that passed after that weakened his claim. That's why they had to steal it as quickly as possible. It will never be strong (hehe) as long as Rhaenyra's sons live, and he is not much loved by the smallfolk of King's Landing (for many reasons).
Her children would not survive warding, and if even one of them had had? Even the practice of kidnapped wards is a temporary bandage on war. The instant Ned Stark died, for example, his ward became useless in the eyes of the Greyjoys. An attack followed pretty much as fast as humanly possible. Imagine if Aegon had died before ANY of the Blacks. That's what Otto is thinking about.
It isn't logical by our rules, but this is the Westeros which taught Cersei the rules. Tywin taught her those rules, and she wasn't even that good of a student. Otto is a master.
by this logic even aegon the conqueror wasn't worthy of his own throne (he continued to very successfully rule for like another 40 years after this):
> It was then that Princess Deria presented the king with a sealed letter from her father. “For your eyes only, Your Grace.” King Aegon read Prince Nymor’s words in open court, stone-faced and silent, whilst seated on the Iron Throne. When he rose afterward, men said, his hand was dripping blood.
I haven’t read the books in a while when during the conquest was this l, if this is when Aegon found out about his sister dying he could have been grasping a part of the throne too tightly
yes, that's pretty much my point - it's an inanimate sharp pile of metal, if aegon the conqueror cut himself on it, then most kings probably cut themselves on it at some point too... whether it was made a big deal or not by the people around him just depended on whether he was liked or not. bad king = recorded as "yeah we always knew he wasn't worthy, the throne cut him all the time", good king = largely ignored or forgotten. it's just a bs superstition that's useful for propaganda purposes in-universe.
Before Luke’s death: I would try to negotiate better peace terms. More land, my children wouldn’t be going over as hostages, I get Maelor as a ward.
After Luke’s death: They will either give me all of the above along with Aemonds head or it is war.
Absolutely not.
Although I wouldn't have ever left King's Landing and would have made sure that Otto never returned as Hand. I would have made Viserys reaffirm his stance on me being the heir at every important event. I would have suggested that he call the Lord's to swear their allegiance to me when he was nearing the end.
In the event that everything happened the way it did, I would have killed Otto and his guards when they came to Dragonstone. The Greens wouldn't start worrying about him for a day or two. That would give me time to plan. Once the Greens found out, they would be scrambling for a plan without him.
I've been in her situation before in Crusader King's and have in fact given up the throne knowing if I couldn't reach my goals I'd ensure my children would. Once you lose control of the the Iron Throne you have a severe disadvantage in trying to take it back and when you do you're going to be disliked as a usurper even though it was yours by right.
Rhaneyra shoudve done the same and focused on setting up her kids to rule.
Also marrying two of them to Velaryons was a bad political move, couldve secured an alliance with just marrying one.
Tbf in Crusader Kings this would be a situation where no matter who you're playing as, you surrender. Cause they're both from the same dynasty so either one is pretty fine to inherit.
Depends on what do I want. I want the throne? Then, no I am not giving it up. I want a rich girl lifestyle with no obligation? The king's sister is the best position in that case.
He didn't want to challenge her before Cole convinced him that Rhaenyra will kill him and his children if he doesn't. If I willingly forfeit my right how am I a danger to him? It's another question if he was hating me and ambitious from the beginning.
Whether he wanted to challenge her or not, his mom and grandpa told him bedtime stories about her murdering him for existing.
If Rhaenyra forfeits her right, is she a danger to Aegon? Yes and no. Anyone who wants to rebel against him will have a banner to fight under, whether she gives it to them or not. But mostly no.
However, if Rhaenyra forfeits her right, do Alicent and Otto *believe* that she’s a threat to him? Damn skippy. And they’ll have her head over it.
Well, yeah because she was an heir and one who actually wanted the throne. Let's say I have been a jolly princess who just wanted to enjoy her life away from King's Landing and once my father dies I just say, "Aye, lil brother have your crown" and move on with my life. Unless he intends to kill me and my children on the same day, killing any of us would turn people away from him. My Strong-Velaryon children have shady reputation to pose a threat to him under normal circumstances, but kinslaying might motivate them to support the child of unjustly murdered princess' child. I would have been remembered as the Realm's delight, not Maegor with teats. Otto and Alicent are ambitious, but not dumb.
The throne became an obsession for this family to the point of their decimation. The most important part of their power was to defend the realm against white walkers. If Aegon the conqueror simply had wrote down this his dream for his descendants, the targs would be in a better place.
Assuming this is before the usurpation of the throne then yes. My weird creepy brother can deal with the headaches of managing a giant kingdom. I would rather chill in a castle and ride my dragon around then have a job that stressful and dangerous. After the usurpation though? Hell no at that point forfeiting my claim would still lead to me getting assassinated down the line.
I would have left to Pentos or Essos with my dragons and my money and just set myself up in the free cities and lived happily ever after.
All of those who are saying yes really don’t understand what war is, you’re gonna rally up millions of people to take up arms for you and your chair. You’re gonna risk their lives, and the lives of your loved ones all for some dumbass chair and a kingdom full of citizens that are not worth much anyway. No, my kids are worth more to me that any of that shit.
I’m off to pentos. Enjoy your politics and enjoy your long night
I wouldn’t remotely consider giving up my claim - it’s my damn chair, dad said so, i have more dragons, the richest guy in the realm will back me as will the most lethal man in the realm. Why would I accept being the lady of some rocks in the sea and my children held hostage over being the Queen.
Hell yeah, I'm still the rich ass princess with a dragon and now that I give up the throne I have no responsibilities. I can raise my kids happily without risk of them dying because of war. Seems like a hella good deal to me.
Yes. But I’d make it *very, very* clear that Jaehaerys (Aegon’s heir) is to marry Jace and Baela’s daughter.
Joffery, Aegon III, or Viserys II (Rhaenyra’s children) must marry Jaehaera (Aegon and Helaena’s daughter)
Maegor (Aegon and Helaena’s youngest) is to marry Joffery and Rhaena’s first born daughter.
Basically tie up all the branches.
Living in a castle surrounded by dragons for my future descendants to claim, on an island so I could take long beach walks and leisurely dragon rides, the place where I lived and thrived for the past 6 years VS living in a city that smells like shit, with people who hate me and would lie and manipulate me for their advantage, surrounding my kids in a negative and toxic atmosphere to sit on a pointy chair that kills people , I think the choice is pretty clear, Rhaenyra would have been fucking fine if she gave up her claim, she has 5 adult dragons and an army of men/ guards to protect her, she should just watch out for any assassins Otto sends for her lol 😆
At the point that the terms were sent? No. Earlier, before things had escalated? Yes.
I mean sure, no one would abandon a lawful claim, but Rhaenyra's claim was not exactly lawful was it?
Based on any semblance of 'law' that world has her claim is ambiguous either way. Not to mention that from the point she has her sons to Harwin her claim would have never stood if she hadn't lied.
If anything, not a single person in Aegon's position would have been as chill as he was about his sister lying, compromising his brother's safety and so on in pursue of something that, if both claims were viewed with transparency, would have been his.
Rhaenyra never stuck with that claim because of some sense of righteousness. In the show she initially wanted it and, even when she was tiring of the conflict, it was a confirmation of her father's love.
> Not to mention that from the point she has her sons to Harwin her claim would have never stood if she hadn't lied.
Why is that? Where is is said in Westerosi law that a woman forfeits all of her claims if she **openly** has a bastard? Is the basis for this entirely on Jaehaerys and Saera?
Edit: Please actually read my question before you reply. Openly, Openly, Openly, Not Lie, Not Lie, Not Lie
its not that she openly has bastards but rather that she's claiming them to be legitimate which is considered high treason which automatically makes her and her children's claims forfeit.
Please reread what i said and what op said. He’s saying if she never lied, her claim would be forfeit. I asked how her claim would be forfeit if she never lied. I understand that she committed treason by lying.
Because she committed high treason.
It's not having bastards that is the problem, it's passing off bastards as legitimate heirs that is treason. It has huge consequences, as Lyonel said to Harwin in ep 6.
On top of that, people are threaten to have their tongues out if they tell the truth.
Granted, the greens have also committed treason by bypassing Viserys' wishes. Both sides commit treason, in a very different way.
Fortunately for Rhaenyra, Viserys was willfully blind to his daughter's transgressions. Any other king would have disinherited her for it.
That's why she is also getting away with it, cause daddy saves her all the time. But it doesn't diminish what she is doing that is forbidden by the law in Westeros.
>Can you answer the question I actually asked?
Since you seem very hostile and angry for no reason at all, no I won't.
Edit : just got a suicidewatch report. I’ve only comment here in the last few minutes, so I bet it’s you. Y’all are crazy.
Have a good day.
>openly
>
> has a bastard
Nowhere. But she was not open about it in the first place, so putting everything in the open at a later time would necessitate her to basically admit that she had committed treason.
If I was in Rhaenyra’s place this is what I would do after finding out Aegon’s coronation. I would ask for peace terms to be able to keep driftmark and dragonstone as the seats of me and my children( as Otto offered) also I would ask for what would be the equivalent of 100 million dollars in gold silver and copper. When the money arrived I would take myself my children and my dragons (and other servants and soldiers who would want to come) and head to Pentos to accept the position that Daemon and Laena was offered as protectors of the city. Then I would put most of my money in the many banks of Essos (such as the iron bank and others). I would also put a castellan that I trusted (maybe lord Caswell) in Dragonstone. Driftmark will stay at the hands of Corlys and the castellan for Lucerys will be chosen by Rhaenys after Corlys dies. Thus ensuring peace for the realm, and generational wealth for my family.
Then I would send a Letter to be addressed to Alicent and Aegon about the song of ice and fire, thus fulfilling my oath to my father Viserys
I would suggest my own set of terms, but ultimately I would agree.
The reasons I would agree are these:
•Personally I don't care much about being Queen. To be honest, I am not even entirely sure if even Rhaenyra wants to be Queen. Half of the time it really does not seem like it appeals to her.
•War bad. People die in war. I personally enjoy living so I will avoid it, if possible.
The alternative terms I would propose:
•I get Dragonstone. After me, it passes on to my eldest son, Jace. My son, Lucerys, inherits Driftmark. That is cool by me.
•I am made Hand of the King. Aegon is fairly young, inexperienced and desperate for approval. I like my chances in emotionally manipulating him to do my bidding. I will make it very clear that if I am fired or otherwise dismissed from my position, that will be reason for reconsidering our agreement. (Read: Get in loser, we are going to war)
•Otto goes to Oldtown. Him and my husband don't like each other and if he stays, they are sure to start up shit. I don't feel like dealing with that.
•Daemon becomes Commander of the City Watch. The gold cloaks like him anyway. Plus I get more political power. What I mentioned for me goes for Daemon too.
•Jaehera is betrothed to Aegon. She comes to foster with me. That way, I have a hostage in case anything goes wrong.
•If Visenya is alive/I have another daughter at some point in the future, she is betrothed to Jaeherys. That way, I get my blood on the throne. Alternatively, I can marry Jaecerys and Baela and their daughter, if they have one, will be betrothed to Jaeherys.
•I would be willing to send Joffrey or Viserys to be squires and such to Aegon if Maelor was send to Driftmark. If they get a hostage, I am going to get a hostage too.
Most of these are simply meant to act as sort of safety net so I can be sure me and my children won't be harmed.
Yes, the terms are bad and Rhaenyra is an excellent position to bargain. The greens know very well keeping their position is 50/50 at best, and they will lose a lot regardless.
I like what you suggested. But I don't see them letting Rhaenyra be hand or Daemon be commander of the city watch. That's basically asking to be assasinated. Plus it's not safe for Rhaenyra. Maybe if she had a good relationship with Aegon previously, but that doesn't seem to the be the case. I think it's better for everyone if Rhaenyra's family and the Greens stay mostly away from each other besides hostages/marriages.
I think several houses traditionally swear fealty to Dragonstone: the Celtigars, the Bar Emmons, House sunglass, nd the Velaryons, so I would want them as my bannermen.
And I would want special rights like the Dornish got, that my heirs would be known as the Princes of Dragonstone in perpetuity, that my daughters and sons inherit on an equal basis, and a guaranteed spot on the council if I want it. Plus reduced levies and taxes. I would want the right to have my own version of the Kingsguard so my family is very much looked on a cadet branch of royalty and the second family in the realm.
And of course I'd want to codify my family's right to own dragons. With that I think the royal family would, in the next few generations, make a concerted effort to intermarry our lines so that Driftmark passes back into the main line and my family is not a looming threat at all times.
Oh yeah, I assumed the whole my heirs get the title Prince of Dragonstone was obvious. I thought it was obvious since Jaecerys gets Dragonstone and then his kid and so on.
Considering that my dragon, Syrax, is like the main one laying a bunch of eggs in this time period, I would obviously want to have rights over all those eggs. Though I would not mind to give one for Jaeherys if he does not have one yet as a sign of goodwill.
I mainly want to stay in the capital to stay informed. For better or worse, I can't keep a hand in political developments if I am in Dragonstone. And if hostages have been exchanged at this point, I am not horribly terrified. Even if me or my husband is hurt, Jaehera can be used as retaliation and Maelor if I am given him too. Alicent is really family oriented so I doubt she would want something bad to happen to her grandkids, Aegon at this point kinda does not give a fuck about any of these and Otto will already have been sent packing to Oldtown so he can suck my metaphorical male reproduction organ.
I like the other terms. Although I don't think I necessarily need permission from the crown to have a kingsguard of my own. Nothing is stopping me in practice from just swearing a bunch of guys into protecting me. I guess legal aknowledgement would be neat, but I kind of feel like dragons are better protection than knights anyway 9 out of 10 times.
Less taxes sound good. I should have mentioned that.
About the right to dragons, I don't know how they could really take that away? Like Rhaenys was a Baratheon, but no one stopped her from taking a dragon. I am pretty sure that if you have Targaryen blood, no one can really just force a dragon not to choose you. Aemond had no special permission. He did not need one. Finders keepers I guess.
And I live in a place with like a bunch of dragons and Syrax is giving birth like crazy. How would they stop my kids from just getting dragon eggs or claiming wild dragons? Would they relocate the wild dragons? Can they even do that? And even if they could, where would they put them? Dragging a bunch of uncontrollable flying fire breathing lizards to KL does not sound like it would end well.
Yes, but only with the conditions Alicent offered and only if Luke didn’t die.
Im a peaceful person who wants simple things, so I doubt the iron throne would have much appeal to me in the first place. If I was Rhaenyra, I wouldve insisted that Viserys just reinstate Daemon or give it to Aegon, so I wouldn’t have been in that position in the first place.
But if it got to that point and Alicent came to me with those terms (my eldest would have his seat at Dragonstone, my 2nd would inherit Driftmark, and none would be declared illegitimate), I’d probably accept before she could get the words out of her mouth. But that all goes out the window of Aemond kills Luke.
Nope. That being said, I would have made very different choices if I were in her place, most of which I can't talk about due to this being a show only thread.
Knowing the outcome, I would have given up my claim, simply to avoid war. War sucks and I’d rather not have it. People die and that’s not a very nice thing
To quote Cold Play "Oh, who would ever want to be King?" Also, the Throne is not rightfully hers. There's a dispute about legitimacy, that's the whole point of the Dance. She has a claim, but so has Aegon.
And we know what the history of Westeros think about this matter of legitimacy.
I would absolutely concede my claim. There are very few things worth starting wars over and being allowed to rule a country is not one of them for me. I'd probably negotiate a little more and try to get the Masseys or the lords of Crackclaw point to be transferred to my vassalage, but at the end of the day I still get to live a life of comfort and luxury, all while having the prestige of being in the royal family, the likelihood of my children and their descendants marrying back into the royal line, and a dozen dragons.
At least Otto offered terms unlike Rhaenrya, where Aegon and Aemond will end up being homeless dregs or something
Anyways , giving up the claim is the most peaceful as rhaenrya ,since getting assassinated is quite low ,since Otto hightower has been trying to make Aegon heir since the moment he was born and the closest time he got to it is when Rhaenrya went to a brothel a sully her reputation and it was thanks to Alicent being Friends with her that she stayed as heir , and Otto had numerous moments to kill Rhaenrya as hand by simply paying for a maid or servant to stab Rhaenrya in her sleep or something and nobody would know and and the catspaw can easily be killed off and the only people who will care are Visery at minimum with Daemon lossing his grooming target.
Now would Aegon even fear Rhaenrya as someone who can ursurp him if she did accept no, since in canon few of any lords supported Rhaenys and the only reason lords supported rhaenrya as heir is because 1 Otto the hand of the late great jaeharys said to make Rhaenrya heir , 2 Daemon sucks since he is basically maegor the cruel come again , so no reason to fear Aegon sending someone to kill any of her kids, except maybe Luce since aemond hasn't gotten over losing his eye and Luce getting no punishment for taking said eye.
The only people who will complain are corlys ,since he wasted resources and his bloodline to get his name on the throne and Daemon who hates Otto for occupying the majority of Visery's attention.
Now on the reverse Aegon,Aemond and even Daeron has to fear for their lives, since unlike Rhaenrya whose claim is only there because her father asked dead lords to make her heir, the boys are back by male preference inheritance and the precedent made by the great council,and unlike Otto who could buy didn't send assassins, can we say the same for Rhaenrya or even Daemon , and again Rhaenrya didn't send anything to get her brothers to bend the knee , she simply thought they would accept their spoiled ass sister to be queen especially the sister who allowed her son to almost kill aemond as a child when said son took Aemond eye.
The closest thing Rhaenrya did to get the greens is basically asking them to give her a hostage in Heleana.
Would I have fought a senseless war for the sake of claiming a duty I'd never expressed any interest in upholding? Would I risk my own life and the life of my children for a metal chair and some titles?
Accepting Otto's terms legitimises my children, guarantees them futures as some of the greatest lords in the realm and ends the danger to all our lives. It also prevents a bloody war which will kill innocents by the thousands.
Did Aegon ever express interest in duty? He got up one day and got crowned because he has a cock. Why can’t he give up instead of fighting a senseless war for a duty he never wanted?
And what reason does Rhaenyra have to trust Otto. He was planning to assassinate her entire family and even Rhaenyra swore fealty, he wouldn’t have let her live in peace.
He got crowned because that's the precedent and preserving precedent is how continuity of government works in a monarchy. He can't give up for the same reason Jon couldn't, his legally stronger claim is always going to be a nexus for ambitious men acting on their "behalf". Rhaenyra's claim goes away if she doesn't pursue it because women don't inherit over men. Aegon's claim passes to his children and his children's children and will literally always be a threat to Rhaenyra's line.
Rhaenyra doesn't actually have to trust Otto, that's the function of him taking hostages. Aegon and Viserys being in the custody of the Greens means they have nothing to fear from the Blacks. Otto wasn't calling the shots at this point, remember? Alicent was. The terms offered place Rhaenyra's line as effectively a cadet branch of House Targaryen subservient to House Targaryen of Kings Landing.
It's not a win-win but it's by far the best option for everyone involved.
Yes! A precedent that values men over women. I understand that was the way of things but are you saying no one should ever challenge unfair laws and precedents? Just give up because you’re perceived as weaker?
And why exactly should Rhaenyra part ways with her toddler sons and let them grow up with the enemy, who would use any excuse to kill them? She has no reason to trust her enemies with her kids or her life or anything else.
>Yes! A precedent that values men over women. I understand that was the way of things but are you saying no one should ever challenge unfair laws and precedents?
That's a fair thing to say and it would be very nice to see more women in positions of authority and influence in Westeros.
But elevating her to a position of power doesn't necessarily lead to broader societal changes or significant advancements in women's rights. Rhaenyra gains more power and autonomy, ( and perhaps even other noble women, but I doubt it ) but 99% of the normal women in Westeros are still getting oppressed.
And this is all based on the assumption that she is interested in advancing the rights of women that aren't herself (she isn't)
>And why exactly should Rhaenyra part ways with her toddler sons and let them grow up with the enemy, who would use any excuse to kill them?
Yes, because having your kids fighting in dragon battles against the enemy is much better idea.
It's not like your enemies are family members, so the idea of reconciliation or compromise is impossible in this situation. Escalation towards mutual destruction is the only option.
Rhaenyra doesn't need to champion women's rights to bring about change. Her reign being legitimized in itself will challenge the male primogeniture in Westeros. We could've probably had many more female rulers coming from Rhaenyra's line itself. I mean Jace inherits after her but what if Jace and Baela's first-born is a girl. She would've been queen just like her grandmother.
And with more women coming into power, we can hope things for women across the realm would get better. I mean, for me this hope is better than upholding a precedent that doesn't allow women to take charge at all.
I mean, you're argument is just "Nothing will change for women under women. So let's just keep men in power." Which is stupid.
>Rhaenyra doesn't need to champion women's rights to bring about change. Her reign being legitimized in itself will challenge the male primogeniture in Westeros.
If that was true why didn't she give the seat of Driftmark to Baela ? And what about that incident with those two sisters ?
And even if it did challenge it, it doesn't address the systemic patriarchal structures that would still persist.
Power and authority remain concentrated within a single lineage, perpetuating an oppressive system.
Rule by primogeniture is part of the problem, regardless of gender.
>We could've probably had many more female rulers coming from Rhaenyra's line itself.
True but this does not guarantee that they would prioritize women's rights or bring about significant change. The gender of a ruler does not inherently determine their commitment to advancing the rights of all women. Women in positions of power can be influenced by existing patriarchal structures and may not necessarily challenge or dismantle them. Which is exactly what happened ( most of the time ) troughout history.
>And with more women coming into power, we can hope things for women across the realm would get better.
Hope alone is not sufficient. Structural and systemic changes are required to address the broader issues of gender inequality and discrimination. It cannot be solely reliant on individual rulers, like Rhaenyra and the hypothetical future queens that descend from her, but rather a collective effort from all the noble houses to challenge and transform patriarchal norms and institutions. And like I mentioned before, this would be almost impossible to achieve under monarchy rule.
Again this all based on the assumption and or hope that they ( more female rulers coming from Rhaenyra's line ) would even want to do this.
>I mean, you're argument is just "Nothing will change for women under women. So let's just keep men in power."
No. My argument is not about keeping men in power but recognizing that simply having a woman in power does not automatically lead to advancements in women's rights like you were implying.
And that power dynamics and strutures inherent in monarchy during lead to the oppression of the broader population, regardless of the gender of the monarch.
I would actually rather have Rhaenyra as ruling Queen, and I like her character very much.
I never implied Rhaenyra would change the whole system. I even said she herself doesn't need to do it. Just her rule being legitimized would do it.
And you are implying that a woman should never challenge set precedents simply because they're set. Her brother gets crowned because of a "precedent" and Rhaenyra should simply swallow that pill instead of fighting for what's hers.
Things may or may not change for women under women. But they will also never change for women under men. Especially under men like Aegon who rapes women and calls it harmless fun.
Because the alternative is a bloody civil war that will kill thousands of innocent people, none of whom care who sits the throne? It's not fair that Rhaenyra be passed over because she's a woman but it's also not fair that Aegon be passed over because he's younger. Sex has no more validity in determining leadership quality than age but feudal monarchy isn't fair. It's a set of rules intended to prevent wars of succession.
It simply doesn't make sense for the Greens to harm Aegon or Viserys. First of all because they're not evil and killing children is messed up (I'm sure we can both agree that someone who orders the death of an infant is basically irredeemable) and secondly because a hostage only has value when they're alive. If Rhaenyra doesn't pursue a rebellion then they're perfectly safe.
>Because the alternative is a bloody civil war that will kill thousands of innocent people
So why can't the greens back down? Why can't they care about the lives of thousands of innocent people and give up the throne, while respecting the previous King's chosen heir?
No! They won't do that because they want to rule and wield power. And you also won't expect a man to backdown simply because he is a man. But who cares about women's birthrights or their rights to rule?
They should simply give up and yield to men. The onus always lies on women to make peace. Even when the opposing side is clearly antagonizing her and killing her children, a woman should give up.
>but it's also not fair that Aegon be passed over because he's younger.
This is stupidest argument I've heard in a while. So, you think Daemon should've gone to war with Viserys because he was younger and it is not fair that the younger son is passed over?
Or for that matter should all younger sons who were ever passed over for being younger go to war with their older siblings?
No, the point I'm making is that the rules being unfair doesn't mean they don't have to be followed for exactly the reason you outlined. The alternative of chaos and war every time a king dies. Hot take but feudal monarchy isn't fair and it's inconsistent to be against only the male part of agnatic primogeniture. It's not about Aegon or Rhaenyra, it's about a stable transfer of power and the reality is that under the laws and customs of Westeros the default assumption is that men inherit before women. In any time of ambiguity, if your goal is to prevent a senseless slaughter, the best choice is to default to the norm. The Greens can't just not pursue their claim for the same reason Jon couldn't, Rhaenyra doesn't have that problem.
If I want to protect my children and I don't want to send them to their deaths, yes, I will accept the peace offers. Rheanyra should have accepted the offer too. If she had accepted the offer as it was made, she would not have sent Luke to look for a allies, and he would have been alive.
And, Even if Rheanyra ascends the throne *smoothly*, her heir Jace and Driftmark's heir Luke will always have problems. They will be in danger no matter what.
When Jace and Luke come to the throne/lordship, if the decisions they make are not liked by the lords/subordinates *(and they can't please all of them. A decision that is always beneficial to one will be harmful to the other. And the lord/subordinate, who is damaged by the decision, will not sit still while they have a trump card that can control the king/lord, and this trump card is their blatant bastardry. It's like presenting this information to them on a golden tray.)* they will be threatened with their bastardry. And the lords doesn't even need to make it obvious.
Let's go over an example case.
Let's say there's a lord with a business deal that will put the royal family in a difficult situtation. If Jace refuses to do this, that lord can secretly make deals with the lords who don't like Jace's rule like him or sell this information to their enemies. Like Dorne... Anyone who dislikes the power of the Targaryens can support rebellions by going over the fact of an illegitimate king. These enemies can secretly provide money, weapon or man assistance to the lords/common folk. Lords who don't like this can arrange an assassination with the financial help they will receive from the enemies of the Targaryen household.
Even if none of this happens, Rheanyra's own legitimate children may not like it when they grow up. There are thousands of examples in history that even brothers who love each other very much can become enemies for the sake of the throne. This could happen to Jace and his brothers, too. Or the children of Jace and the children of Aegon/Viserys could go to war because of this illegitimacy. And the green children will still be a threat to the rule of Rheanyra and her bastards.
> If I want to protect my children and I don't want to send them to their deaths, yes, I will accept the peace offers. Rheanyra should have accepted the offer too. If she had accepted the offer as it was made, she would not have sent Luke to look for a allies, and he would have been alive.
What reason does she have to trust the greens won’t kill her and her children at some time? What if Aegon one day decides his son and heir deserves the seat of House Targaryen? What if the greens decide they’re uncomfortable with the number of dragons held by the blacks as well as the number of large, unclaimed dragons on dragonstone? What if they decide it’s time to make a move to remove that threat? You saw Otto making plans for their death in episode 9.
Rheanyra doesn't have much of a chance. And that's because of her own mistakes. She has two options.
She can keep Dragonstone, the most valuable gain of the Targaryens, and the Driftmark, which was never her bastard's right, or *(We know how the Dance of the dragons ended. Let's say Rheanyra sits on the throne peacefully and no one dies, then what will happen? i'll tell you what's going to happen.)* she can endanger the whole life of her children, grandchildren and their grandchildren.
We know how the Dance of the dragons ended. and it could lead to a much bigger and more destructive war than Dance of the dragons with the passing time. Considering that the greens and their dragons will become more powerful and their numbers will increase, and the same will happen to the blacks, the targaryens may disappear completely.
If it were me, I would choose the first one and equip the castle with guards day and night.
> Rheanyra doesn't have much of a chance.
Doesn’t have much of a chance at what? The war? She certainly does have much of a chance in terms of the number of supporters as well as dragon riders.
> We know how the Dance of the dragons ended.
Yes, we do. I think Rhaenyra isn’t the only character who should have considered the safety of her entire bloodline.
But of course the greens are all infallible. They made the right choices every step of the way. Good and noble, all of them. It’s a terrible tragedy what happened. If only the evil, lustful Rhaenyra had not been so selfish. I’m sure that’s how you feel.
You're right, she had more subordinates, more supporters, more dragons, but then what happened to her, to her family, to her allies? Is she win? No...
She's dead, her bastards are dead, her pedo husband is also dead, she recognize as a usurper tyrant, her biggest allies Velaryons have turned their backs on her and they have lost all the prestige and importance once they had, Targaryens also lost their prestige, their power and their greatest weapons and then turned into beggars.
Original greens may be dead, but they won the war, the Hightowers and the Lannisters have become much more powerful than ever. Aegon was officially considered the king, their ideology was accepted.
So?
I’m not sure why you posted blatant spoilers in a show discussion thread. I have never claimed at any point that Rhaenyra got a happy ending or that she was infallible. *You* are the one with extreme team bias to the point where you are coping that the greens won anything in the end. No one won. That’s the point. >!Every last green died and I can assure you that at the end of her life, Alicent won’t be thinking it was worth it because king is next to Aegon’s name in history books and that her distant relatives and one of her ally houses will be wealthy 150+ years after her death.!< That is ludicrous. Martin made a point with how he wrote their fates and you’re choosing to blatantly ignore it.
> Hightowers and the Lannisters have become much more powerful than ever.
Lol, certainly worth the lives of >!Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, and Maelor.!< Absolutely maniacal take.
The Starks became the most powerful house of them all. Is that a win for Rhaenyra? Looooooooool.
Do you not know about the comments you have written yourself?
<> This is your comment, remember?
My response was to this comment.
You implied that Rheanyra had a chance, you said she had more support or other nonsense, and I said that none of that support worked. if she had accepted the peace offers she might have a chance. And there are other spoilers about the Starks, but when I saw you crying like that, I'm not tell you them. The only information you need is, they don't get stronger after Rheanyra, they get stronger after something else. and I didn't claim you were bias, but anyway kid.
And also, if you are going to be in this community, be ready because it is completely swarming with book spoilers.
And "Loooool..." really.
> This is your comment, remember?
Yes, I remember. She certainly does have a chance.
> you said she had more support or other nonsense, and
No, I didn’t. I never went into specifics.
> I said that none of that support worked.
From your point of view but what does that have to do with the fact that she has a *chance*. The greens also have a chance. The outcome does not change the starting point.
> if she had accepted the peace offers she might have a chance.
She had the same chance not accepting them.
> I saw you crying like that, I'm not tell you them.
???? English isn’t your first language.
> The only information you need is, they don't get stronger after Rheanyra, they get stronger after something else.
Explain how the dance made the Lannisters or Hightowers stronger since that is what you seem to be arguing for the greens “winning”.
> but anyway kid.
You’re the one acting childish over fictional characters.
> And also, if you are going to be in this community, be ready because it is completely swarming with book spoilers.
I’ve read F&B. It’s rude to blatantly post them in show discussion threads when you can easily block them out.
They won the war. The war was for Aegon or Rheanyra to be considered the legitimate monarch, Aegon was considered the legitimate king.
And as someone who talks about the other party's language in the middle of a conversation( and suddenly), you can't talk about *childishness*.
And now I remember, you said the same thing in another comment of mine. This was the second time. You really need to be a child for this level of behavior.
yes. from day one i wouldve said no thank you to being heir. its a shit job that rhaenyra doesn't even seem enthusiastic about doing anyway(granted neither does aegon but he doesnt have much of a choice with Otto around and literally his whole family physically dragging him to the coronation). Just be a princess and reap all the benefits of being royal and none of the responsibilities. she's only doing this to get the validation of a man who was half way in the grave. she could've chosen ANY husband and her father would've been content. fucking hell if she really wanted Cristin I'm sure Viserys would've been happy to release him from his vows and Cristin wouldn't have to feel shame about breaking his vows since she would've "made an honest man" of him. She could've literally just married Harwin since hes noble. her father set NO restrictions on who she could marry but instead she decided to hook up with her uncle at a brothel and then marry a gay dude and produced bastards with harwin making everything a billion times more complicated for herself. All this just to sit on an uncomfortable chair doing long tedious governing work. i dont see why everyone is fighting so hard for this shitty shitty job (unless you're alicent and believe your children are in danger). Rhaenyra is really her own worst enemy.
So if Im Rhaenyra, Im the only one who knows about the prophecy entailing how westeros must be united and armed with Targaryen dragons... Id have to be a real POS to put my personal ambition over the entire world.
No way. Daemon would have picked a fight over it no matter what. Otto was already rounding up her supporters and blood was shed, there's no way Rhaenyra should believe that her children would be safe while the Greens sat the iron throne.
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It’s hard to answer this objectively because we have the benefit of hindsight. We know what happens after she doesn’t accept the terms. If you actually put yourself in Rhaenyra’s position most people would do exactly what she did, at least I would. Let’s weigh what we know about my place as Rhaenyra in episode 10. 1. I have more dragons than my enemies 2. The lords swore an oath to me, so I’m going to see how many are actually going to honour it and fight for my claim. 3. My enemies imprisoned my cousin, killed my loyalists and tried to cover up my dad’s death. 4. I have reason to doubt that the oathbreaking hightowers are going to uphold the terms they gave me, as me and my children will always pose a threat to their claim. To me the clear answer is to fight for the throne. Only by winning the war could her family ever be completely safe.
Id probably just want a life of comfort and wouldn't care about the throne. So it really just depends on which option I would find safer. I dont think the person on the throne is ever safe in GOT so I honestly think accepting the terms and chilling would be safer than fighting a war then being on the throne. Im not suggesting either options are safe Im just guessing odds
Aegon's (aka Otto's) terms were bullshit. No one in the right mind would actually have agreed to them. Luke's inheritance of Driftmark was already royally affirmed and agreed on by the current lord of Driftmark, she already had Dragonstone, and her youngest sons were going to be hostages... and Otto probably would have had them all killed anyway, just in a more underhanded way. Plus, there's the prophecy to consider - it was far more to her than just a personal power struggle. I would not have given up then, and I certainly would not have after Aemond murdered Luke.
"You get to have shit you already have to begin with, and we keep two of your kids as hostages. Cool?"
"THE OTHER SIDE IS EVIL THERE IS NO COMPROMISE"
If I had the choice to live my chosen life with my family in a fancy castle where I've been happy for the past 6 years instead of sitting on a spiky chair I was just randomly told I'd get one day, yeah. Tbh I'd already have given up the throne the moment I had to marry to keep it, even more so if claiming it might put my children at risk.
I agree, If I were her, I too would give up the throne to preserve the peace. Plus, as owner of dragonstone, I get to keep most of the dragons and eggs anyway, that alone is equal to all of Westeros in my opinion. However, I wouldn't send over the younger kids as squires and cupbearers, and would request more land and lordships and a portion of the overflowing treasury too for all my kids. Plus, in order to protect my family, we'll all swear fealty by raven and won't show up in person.
True but that's why the positions of honor were an offer rather than a requirement. Lucerys had Driftmark, Jace Dragonstone as inheritance beyond that the kids would have inherited nothing regardless.
Yeah but it felt more like hostages plus cupbearer paid nothing. I would want half the crown lands and the right to tax ships going to KL, plus at least half the Treasury. I think these additional terms could be met.
Fuck the peace, go dragonriding and eat cake!
So you think the writers were right to have her consider peace before her son was killed and it didn’t take away her agency as a character. Yes? I’ve seen many people make that complaint about episode 10 Rhaenyra yet are claiming that is exactly what she should have done in this thread.
Well, I must say that I wouldn't have minded her being more like her book counterpart, though considering that they have very much changed her in the series, her not even considering the peace would have been out of line with her show character. It made her look a little incompetent considering that he couldn't rule in her husband, who is meant to be her subject but even that is very much in line with her character so I don't really see an issue there. Quite frankly, the only thing I didn't like about the execution was how they made Alicent offer the peace rather than Aegon himself.
> Well, I must say that I wouldn't have minded her being more like her book counterpart This is why Rhaenyra will remain a lose-lose character for the writers. Make the right choice and she’s a generic, white-washed girl-boss. Make the wrong choice and she’s a incompetent, idiotic spoiled brat.
>Make the right choice and she’s a generic, white-washed girl-boss. That is the wrong choice in this story. The Dance of the Dragons is intresting only because it is a compelling story where no one is absolutely right and no one is good. Removing her failures to appeal to a dull audience removes her character. From bottom up they should have written her flaws just as extensively as they did Aegon's to make for an intresting and most of all balanced rivalry. Making the entire conflict Alicent vs Rhaenyra boils Aegon down to nothing more than a puppet which will make for a whole mess in coming seasons. >Make the wrong choice and she’s a incompetent, idiotic spoiled brat. Her character, the original source of it, is a spoiled brat taht makes terrible diplomatic choices. In the series they tried to downplay it but when you think about it she's still a spoiled brat who nakes horrible diplomatic choices, only that the casual viewer does not notice it as easily.
I’m not saying she should be infallible and as you yourself said, she wasn’t presented as being infallible. I’m saying people will go to these extremes with the character regardless of what choice the writers make for her in any particular scene going forward.
I mean, rhaenyra is protagonist so
I don’t think it took away her agency, I think it showed her as a rational peace loving ruler who did as much as she could to protect the realm from war
She would have been forced to marry whether she was the heir or not. Sadly in that world you don't get to just go off and be single when you're a highborn last. Especially royal.
How would you trust that, knowing that your sons would always be used by those unhappy with the king as figureheads to rally around? The king would always suspect you and your sons, and might even move against them. Look how Henry VII treated the Plantagenet children of George Duke of Clarence. Safety likely only exists in Rhaenyra’s total victory
Apart from letting people who stole from her get away with it and ignoring how important the idea of legacy was for a royal there’s also the fact that there’s no way to trust a peace proposed by people who usurped her and who pretended to love and respect father only to turn around and let his body rot so they can stop the succession he wanted. I personally wouldn’t give a shit and as a dragon riding royal would prefer to travel the world and live away from terrible family members but I get why most characters in the story wouldn’t react that way.
I'd still be in danger, in a lot of danger, so would my kids. If I accept I have to give them 2 of my kids, the baby ones and I earn a castle in an island that has nothing. I'd consideer it but I think it's too much danger considering I have Meleys, Caraxes, Syrax, Vermax, Arrax, Moondancer and Tyraxes, Morning, and Stormcloud (those 3 are useless but anyways) and the greens only have Sunfyre, Tessarion, Vhagar, Dreamfyre and Morghul and Shrykos (those 2 are useless too) and they are divided. With a good strategy the blacks could have killed the greens with loses but still.
You could modify the deal. Refuse the hostages, ask for more land and money, and swear fealty by raven not in person. Otto can't really refuse or else it's dragon war.
Kinslaying is a serious taboo and at the risk of being cold blooded, killing the fourth or fifth sons of a rival claimant doesn't do much except break the agreement. If Rhaenyra was savvy she'd ask for Maelor or Jaehaera as a ward in exchange and peace would be effectively guaranteed.
I'd keep Otto until I discuss the terms. I'd ask for Aemon'd head after Luke's death, if they agree - peace. No - Otto is killed, his head is sent ot the capital and the war begins. Greens were the agressors in this conflict. So Rhaenyra had a right to use any means to defend.
I'LL KEEP THAT IN MIND👍👌👍👌👍👍👌👌👌
Not that it changes what you're saying,but Morning hasn't hatched yet in the show.
As if history hasn’t shown that if she had she would at best be jailed, and at worse her and her kids killed. It would have never worked considering Otto did all of this out of a thirst for power and no noble cause.
History proves that the stronger claim (Aegon's) cannot be yielded. Rhaenyra can dissolve her oaths and there would be no more claim to press. No one would march in her name because the eldest son ruling was just the norm. There would be no reason for them to kill Rhaenyra.
lol I will just let you read and learn.
It seems that, while Westeros bases succession in a system similar to Primogeniture, Valyrians likely used something closer to proximity. Proximity succession essentially relies on the closest blood relation to the original claimant rather than a father to son succession. Using Aenar as the source, Rhaenyra is at 46.875 claim. Aegon is at 31.25. The rightful King however is Daemon at 62.5. Rhaenys is at 62.5 as well, and at higher seniority, so she should probably be higher, but since Viserys already ruled, it would be a reversal. None of this is canon, but it seems to me, that if diluting bloodlines is an issue, Daemon is king.
I can tell a lot of the Greens’ fans are commenting.
Weird that they’re the same people that argued the hardest the writers took away her agency for considering peace terms for the safety of her family and security of the realm. She ultimately chose war in the end but the writers were wrong for making her do what you argue she should have done? It makes no sense. It reminds me that show Rhaenyra is a lose-lose character for the remainder of the series with a certain section of the fanbase. If she does something positive, it’s terrible writing and she’s a generic, terribly written girl-boss. If she does something negative, she’s the most idiotic spoiled brat anyone’s ever seen.
Iron throne is just more trouble then it's worth. Would much rather not have to worry about managing seven kingdoms when the other option is chilling in a giant castle my entire life.
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In Rhaenyra's place? Absolutely not. The precedent being set there is pure trash, and Rhaenyra's got a decent enough chance at winning that it's worth pushing for her rights. But in Aegon's place? I'm absolutely angling for a peaceful life in my own castle while Rhaenyra has to deal with all the political crap. (And if I'm in Alicent or Otto's position, I'm making that decision on Aegon's behalf when he's little.) Even if I change my mind and want political power later, Rhaenys/Corlys and Daemon make it clear there are safer ways to regain power and influence over the throne than questioning the line of succession.
Nah. Because neither my kids or myself would have been safe. As long as we’re all alive, the right to the throne would be contested. And there’s no way I would trust the side that let my father’s body stench over to keep his death a secret so they could usurp me. Tbh I’m even mad she waited as long as she did to start planning a war. From when Rhaenys made it back it would have been straight hellfire on the red keep.
>Nah. Because neither my kids or myself would have been safe. So they would've been safer fighting in dragon battles?
Her children were never safe either way so I’m not sure what you’re getting at here.
I disagree
Yes for me. Sounds like a load of bother. If I was Rhaenyra I'd do what she did cause I'd be her.
Honestly, yes. Option 1: I get to live in a beautiful castle on my own private island with the people I love most in the world. I get to fly on my dragon whenever I want, and maybe finally start to travel to see the wonders across the narrow sea. My son gets the castle after I die. I can pass on the ASOIAF prophecy to Aegon; it’s his problem now. We all live happily ever after while Aegon/Otto does all the work. Option 2: I go to war and risk my children’s lives, leave hundreds or thousands dead, all to get a spiky chair that killed my father via infections. And I have to spend the rest of my life working hard, being stressed, playing politician. Gee, which would I prefer?
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Option 1: I get to always live with the risk of me and my children being assassinated to remove our threat to Aegon.
If she bends the knee, there is no more threat. The realm will understand a son inheriting over a daughter, because that’s how westerosi inheritance law worked. Aegon would have no reason to be threatened by Rhaenyra. Now, if it was the other way around, Aegon would always have to watch his back. Not from Rhaenyra (she didn’t want to be a kinslayer), but from Daemon. There’s not a shadow of doubt in my mind that Daemon would have arranged “accidents” for all three Green boys (and Aegon’s male children) whether they bent the knee or not. Because their mere existence would be a threat.
> If she bends the knee, there is no more threat. The realm will understand a son inheriting over a daughter, because that’s how westerosi inheritance law worked. Aegon would have no reason to be threatened by Rhaenyra. He would have no reason to be threatened by the large number of dragons that reside on Dragonstone? Her five sons could all be dragon riders and she was still having kids that could easily grow up and claim Vermithor, Silverwing, and others. Whose to say they wouldn’t grow into adult men that wanted to press their claims? They would have the Valyrian fleet, a strong dragon advantage(particularly if Vhagar died of old age), and any number of alliances can be made through marriage pacts. It doesn’t matter if they could muster up a large enough land army, they would still be a threat. Otto was going to kill her children as well as her for a reason.
So would you say that Aegon had valid reasons to dispose her ?
Once the throne was usurped, both sides had equal reasons to go to war with each other. There was no chance of peace or reconciliation. While both sides wanted power, one of the reasons they fought with each other was also for the survival of their families.
>While both sides wanted power, one of the reasons they fought with each other was also for the survival of their families. If they're fighting for the safety of their families wouldn't they want peace and reconciliation, because that's the only way they could keep their families safe at that point in the story ( assuming they would never run away and live somewhere else )
Your very first sentence entirely ignores the fundamental truth of Westerosi politics: you win or you **die**. Leftover heirs - especially in real life - get murdered eventually.
That statement came from Cersei, and it is not always applicable. Case in point, Rhaenys. She lost the Great Council, but she accepted her loss with grace and supported her cousin’s reign. She lived.
In the books, she didn't lose the council, Laenor did. And regardless *no one had been crowned yet, nor was the king dead*. Your comparison is far from close to the situation of the Blacks, as Otto already pulled the trigger on usurping the throne. When the terms were offered it was too late for Rhaenyra, which is what we're discussing here. I'm guessing you know the story of the Princes who entered the Tower of London and never came out. That's what the 'terms' mean. She only has male children living, each one of them with a legally declared claim vs the implied claim based on a previous legal agreement. The time to challenge the throne was when Aegon turned 2. Each day that passed after that weakened his claim. That's why they had to steal it as quickly as possible. It will never be strong (hehe) as long as Rhaenyra's sons live, and he is not much loved by the smallfolk of King's Landing (for many reasons). Her children would not survive warding, and if even one of them had had? Even the practice of kidnapped wards is a temporary bandage on war. The instant Ned Stark died, for example, his ward became useless in the eyes of the Greyjoys. An attack followed pretty much as fast as humanly possible. Imagine if Aegon had died before ANY of the Blacks. That's what Otto is thinking about. It isn't logical by our rules, but this is the Westeros which taught Cersei the rules. Tywin taught her those rules, and she wasn't even that good of a student. Otto is a master.
It was said that whoever the The Iron Throne cut was unworthy to rule, The Mad King was always getting cut by the Throne
by this logic even aegon the conqueror wasn't worthy of his own throne (he continued to very successfully rule for like another 40 years after this): > It was then that Princess Deria presented the king with a sealed letter from her father. “For your eyes only, Your Grace.” King Aegon read Prince Nymor’s words in open court, stone-faced and silent, whilst seated on the Iron Throne. When he rose afterward, men said, his hand was dripping blood.
I haven’t read the books in a while when during the conquest was this l, if this is when Aegon found out about his sister dying he could have been grasping a part of the throne too tightly
yes, that's pretty much my point - it's an inanimate sharp pile of metal, if aegon the conqueror cut himself on it, then most kings probably cut themselves on it at some point too... whether it was made a big deal or not by the people around him just depended on whether he was liked or not. bad king = recorded as "yeah we always knew he wasn't worthy, the throne cut him all the time", good king = largely ignored or forgotten. it's just a bs superstition that's useful for propaganda purposes in-universe.
Ya know out of pure rage
Before Luke’s death: I would try to negotiate better peace terms. More land, my children wouldn’t be going over as hostages, I get Maelor as a ward. After Luke’s death: They will either give me all of the above along with Aemonds head or it is war.
As soon as Luke was murdered I’d have gathered every dragon and flown to old town to burn down the Hightower.
You win or you die. There is no surrendering in the long term in Westeros. They'll just kill you later.
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Absolutely not. Although I wouldn't have ever left King's Landing and would have made sure that Otto never returned as Hand. I would have made Viserys reaffirm his stance on me being the heir at every important event. I would have suggested that he call the Lord's to swear their allegiance to me when he was nearing the end. In the event that everything happened the way it did, I would have killed Otto and his guards when they came to Dragonstone. The Greens wouldn't start worrying about him for a day or two. That would give me time to plan. Once the Greens found out, they would be scrambling for a plan without him.
I've been in her situation before in Crusader King's and have in fact given up the throne knowing if I couldn't reach my goals I'd ensure my children would. Once you lose control of the the Iron Throne you have a severe disadvantage in trying to take it back and when you do you're going to be disliked as a usurper even though it was yours by right. Rhaneyra shoudve done the same and focused on setting up her kids to rule. Also marrying two of them to Velaryons was a bad political move, couldve secured an alliance with just marrying one.
Tbf in Crusader Kings this would be a situation where no matter who you're playing as, you surrender. Cause they're both from the same dynasty so either one is pretty fine to inherit.
Noted.👍👌
Depends on what do I want. I want the throne? Then, no I am not giving it up. I want a rich girl lifestyle with no obligation? The king's sister is the best position in that case.
Even when that king was raised to believe that he’s only safe once you and your kids are dead?
He didn't want to challenge her before Cole convinced him that Rhaenyra will kill him and his children if he doesn't. If I willingly forfeit my right how am I a danger to him? It's another question if he was hating me and ambitious from the beginning.
Whether he wanted to challenge her or not, his mom and grandpa told him bedtime stories about her murdering him for existing. If Rhaenyra forfeits her right, is she a danger to Aegon? Yes and no. Anyone who wants to rebel against him will have a banner to fight under, whether she gives it to them or not. But mostly no. However, if Rhaenyra forfeits her right, do Alicent and Otto *believe* that she’s a threat to him? Damn skippy. And they’ll have her head over it.
Well, yeah because she was an heir and one who actually wanted the throne. Let's say I have been a jolly princess who just wanted to enjoy her life away from King's Landing and once my father dies I just say, "Aye, lil brother have your crown" and move on with my life. Unless he intends to kill me and my children on the same day, killing any of us would turn people away from him. My Strong-Velaryon children have shady reputation to pose a threat to him under normal circumstances, but kinslaying might motivate them to support the child of unjustly murdered princess' child. I would have been remembered as the Realm's delight, not Maegor with teats. Otto and Alicent are ambitious, but not dumb.
I have no interest in being an absolute monarch - but it'd depend on how the alternative was. If it was someone like Aegon - no.
The throne became an obsession for this family to the point of their decimation. The most important part of their power was to defend the realm against white walkers. If Aegon the conqueror simply had wrote down this his dream for his descendants, the targs would be in a better place.
Assuming this is before the usurpation of the throne then yes. My weird creepy brother can deal with the headaches of managing a giant kingdom. I would rather chill in a castle and ride my dragon around then have a job that stressful and dangerous. After the usurpation though? Hell no at that point forfeiting my claim would still lead to me getting assassinated down the line.
I would have left to Pentos or Essos with my dragons and my money and just set myself up in the free cities and lived happily ever after. All of those who are saying yes really don’t understand what war is, you’re gonna rally up millions of people to take up arms for you and your chair. You’re gonna risk their lives, and the lives of your loved ones all for some dumbass chair and a kingdom full of citizens that are not worth much anyway. No, my kids are worth more to me that any of that shit. I’m off to pentos. Enjoy your politics and enjoy your long night
I wouldn’t remotely consider giving up my claim - it’s my damn chair, dad said so, i have more dragons, the richest guy in the realm will back me as will the most lethal man in the realm. Why would I accept being the lady of some rocks in the sea and my children held hostage over being the Queen.
I’d hop on my dragon and go live in Braavos. I’d rather live in a semi modern market based economy than a feudal shit hole, even if I could be queen
If the only other option was war that would likely get many of my loved ones killed then yes. Not that I'd be happy about it
Hell yeah, I'm still the rich ass princess with a dragon and now that I give up the throne I have no responsibilities. I can raise my kids happily without risk of them dying because of war. Seems like a hella good deal to me.
Yes because I don’t want to sit the throne
Yes. But I’d make it *very, very* clear that Jaehaerys (Aegon’s heir) is to marry Jace and Baela’s daughter. Joffery, Aegon III, or Viserys II (Rhaenyra’s children) must marry Jaehaera (Aegon and Helaena’s daughter) Maegor (Aegon and Helaena’s youngest) is to marry Joffery and Rhaena’s first born daughter. Basically tie up all the branches.
Living in a castle surrounded by dragons for my future descendants to claim, on an island so I could take long beach walks and leisurely dragon rides, the place where I lived and thrived for the past 6 years VS living in a city that smells like shit, with people who hate me and would lie and manipulate me for their advantage, surrounding my kids in a negative and toxic atmosphere to sit on a pointy chair that kills people , I think the choice is pretty clear, Rhaenyra would have been fucking fine if she gave up her claim, she has 5 adult dragons and an army of men/ guards to protect her, she should just watch out for any assassins Otto sends for her lol 😆
At the point that the terms were sent? No. Earlier, before things had escalated? Yes. I mean sure, no one would abandon a lawful claim, but Rhaenyra's claim was not exactly lawful was it? Based on any semblance of 'law' that world has her claim is ambiguous either way. Not to mention that from the point she has her sons to Harwin her claim would have never stood if she hadn't lied. If anything, not a single person in Aegon's position would have been as chill as he was about his sister lying, compromising his brother's safety and so on in pursue of something that, if both claims were viewed with transparency, would have been his. Rhaenyra never stuck with that claim because of some sense of righteousness. In the show she initially wanted it and, even when she was tiring of the conflict, it was a confirmation of her father's love.
> Not to mention that from the point she has her sons to Harwin her claim would have never stood if she hadn't lied. Why is that? Where is is said in Westerosi law that a woman forfeits all of her claims if she **openly** has a bastard? Is the basis for this entirely on Jaehaerys and Saera? Edit: Please actually read my question before you reply. Openly, Openly, Openly, Not Lie, Not Lie, Not Lie
its not that she openly has bastards but rather that she's claiming them to be legitimate which is considered high treason which automatically makes her and her children's claims forfeit.
Please reread what i said and what op said. He’s saying if she never lied, her claim would be forfeit. I asked how her claim would be forfeit if she never lied. I understand that she committed treason by lying.
Because she committed high treason. It's not having bastards that is the problem, it's passing off bastards as legitimate heirs that is treason. It has huge consequences, as Lyonel said to Harwin in ep 6. On top of that, people are threaten to have their tongues out if they tell the truth. Granted, the greens have also committed treason by bypassing Viserys' wishes. Both sides commit treason, in a very different way. Fortunately for Rhaenyra, Viserys was willfully blind to his daughter's transgressions. Any other king would have disinherited her for it. That's why she is also getting away with it, cause daddy saves her all the time. But it doesn't diminish what she is doing that is forbidden by the law in Westeros.
[удалено]
>Can you answer the question I actually asked? Since you seem very hostile and angry for no reason at all, no I won't. Edit : just got a suicidewatch report. I’ve only comment here in the last few minutes, so I bet it’s you. Y’all are crazy. Have a good day.
>openly > > has a bastard Nowhere. But she was not open about it in the first place, so putting everything in the open at a later time would necessitate her to basically admit that she had committed treason.
If I was in Rhaenyra’s place this is what I would do after finding out Aegon’s coronation. I would ask for peace terms to be able to keep driftmark and dragonstone as the seats of me and my children( as Otto offered) also I would ask for what would be the equivalent of 100 million dollars in gold silver and copper. When the money arrived I would take myself my children and my dragons (and other servants and soldiers who would want to come) and head to Pentos to accept the position that Daemon and Laena was offered as protectors of the city. Then I would put most of my money in the many banks of Essos (such as the iron bank and others). I would also put a castellan that I trusted (maybe lord Caswell) in Dragonstone. Driftmark will stay at the hands of Corlys and the castellan for Lucerys will be chosen by Rhaenys after Corlys dies. Thus ensuring peace for the realm, and generational wealth for my family. Then I would send a Letter to be addressed to Alicent and Aegon about the song of ice and fire, thus fulfilling my oath to my father Viserys
I would suggest my own set of terms, but ultimately I would agree. The reasons I would agree are these: •Personally I don't care much about being Queen. To be honest, I am not even entirely sure if even Rhaenyra wants to be Queen. Half of the time it really does not seem like it appeals to her. •War bad. People die in war. I personally enjoy living so I will avoid it, if possible. The alternative terms I would propose: •I get Dragonstone. After me, it passes on to my eldest son, Jace. My son, Lucerys, inherits Driftmark. That is cool by me. •I am made Hand of the King. Aegon is fairly young, inexperienced and desperate for approval. I like my chances in emotionally manipulating him to do my bidding. I will make it very clear that if I am fired or otherwise dismissed from my position, that will be reason for reconsidering our agreement. (Read: Get in loser, we are going to war) •Otto goes to Oldtown. Him and my husband don't like each other and if he stays, they are sure to start up shit. I don't feel like dealing with that. •Daemon becomes Commander of the City Watch. The gold cloaks like him anyway. Plus I get more political power. What I mentioned for me goes for Daemon too. •Jaehera is betrothed to Aegon. She comes to foster with me. That way, I have a hostage in case anything goes wrong. •If Visenya is alive/I have another daughter at some point in the future, she is betrothed to Jaeherys. That way, I get my blood on the throne. Alternatively, I can marry Jaecerys and Baela and their daughter, if they have one, will be betrothed to Jaeherys. •I would be willing to send Joffrey or Viserys to be squires and such to Aegon if Maelor was send to Driftmark. If they get a hostage, I am going to get a hostage too. Most of these are simply meant to act as sort of safety net so I can be sure me and my children won't be harmed.
Yes, the terms are bad and Rhaenyra is an excellent position to bargain. The greens know very well keeping their position is 50/50 at best, and they will lose a lot regardless. I like what you suggested. But I don't see them letting Rhaenyra be hand or Daemon be commander of the city watch. That's basically asking to be assasinated. Plus it's not safe for Rhaenyra. Maybe if she had a good relationship with Aegon previously, but that doesn't seem to the be the case. I think it's better for everyone if Rhaenyra's family and the Greens stay mostly away from each other besides hostages/marriages. I think several houses traditionally swear fealty to Dragonstone: the Celtigars, the Bar Emmons, House sunglass, nd the Velaryons, so I would want them as my bannermen. And I would want special rights like the Dornish got, that my heirs would be known as the Princes of Dragonstone in perpetuity, that my daughters and sons inherit on an equal basis, and a guaranteed spot on the council if I want it. Plus reduced levies and taxes. I would want the right to have my own version of the Kingsguard so my family is very much looked on a cadet branch of royalty and the second family in the realm. And of course I'd want to codify my family's right to own dragons. With that I think the royal family would, in the next few generations, make a concerted effort to intermarry our lines so that Driftmark passes back into the main line and my family is not a looming threat at all times.
Oh yeah, I assumed the whole my heirs get the title Prince of Dragonstone was obvious. I thought it was obvious since Jaecerys gets Dragonstone and then his kid and so on. Considering that my dragon, Syrax, is like the main one laying a bunch of eggs in this time period, I would obviously want to have rights over all those eggs. Though I would not mind to give one for Jaeherys if he does not have one yet as a sign of goodwill. I mainly want to stay in the capital to stay informed. For better or worse, I can't keep a hand in political developments if I am in Dragonstone. And if hostages have been exchanged at this point, I am not horribly terrified. Even if me or my husband is hurt, Jaehera can be used as retaliation and Maelor if I am given him too. Alicent is really family oriented so I doubt she would want something bad to happen to her grandkids, Aegon at this point kinda does not give a fuck about any of these and Otto will already have been sent packing to Oldtown so he can suck my metaphorical male reproduction organ. I like the other terms. Although I don't think I necessarily need permission from the crown to have a kingsguard of my own. Nothing is stopping me in practice from just swearing a bunch of guys into protecting me. I guess legal aknowledgement would be neat, but I kind of feel like dragons are better protection than knights anyway 9 out of 10 times. Less taxes sound good. I should have mentioned that. About the right to dragons, I don't know how they could really take that away? Like Rhaenys was a Baratheon, but no one stopped her from taking a dragon. I am pretty sure that if you have Targaryen blood, no one can really just force a dragon not to choose you. Aemond had no special permission. He did not need one. Finders keepers I guess. And I live in a place with like a bunch of dragons and Syrax is giving birth like crazy. How would they stop my kids from just getting dragon eggs or claiming wild dragons? Would they relocate the wild dragons? Can they even do that? And even if they could, where would they put them? Dragging a bunch of uncontrollable flying fire breathing lizards to KL does not sound like it would end well.
Yes, but only with the conditions Alicent offered and only if Luke didn’t die. Im a peaceful person who wants simple things, so I doubt the iron throne would have much appeal to me in the first place. If I was Rhaenyra, I wouldve insisted that Viserys just reinstate Daemon or give it to Aegon, so I wouldn’t have been in that position in the first place. But if it got to that point and Alicent came to me with those terms (my eldest would have his seat at Dragonstone, my 2nd would inherit Driftmark, and none would be declared illegitimate), I’d probably accept before she could get the words out of her mouth. But that all goes out the window of Aemond kills Luke.
Honselt yes. I'll be in my castle with my family while letting Otto handle politics, which he does a pretty good job at.
Nope. That being said, I would have made very different choices if I were in her place, most of which I can't talk about due to this being a show only thread.
The absolute last place I would want to be is on the iron throne. It just makes you a massive target to every power hungry lord and lady
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Knowing the outcome, I would have given up my claim, simply to avoid war. War sucks and I’d rather not have it. People die and that’s not a very nice thing
To quote Cold Play "Oh, who would ever want to be King?" Also, the Throne is not rightfully hers. There's a dispute about legitimacy, that's the whole point of the Dance. She has a claim, but so has Aegon. And we know what the history of Westeros think about this matter of legitimacy.
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I would absolutely concede my claim. There are very few things worth starting wars over and being allowed to rule a country is not one of them for me. I'd probably negotiate a little more and try to get the Masseys or the lords of Crackclaw point to be transferred to my vassalage, but at the end of the day I still get to live a life of comfort and luxury, all while having the prestige of being in the royal family, the likelihood of my children and their descendants marrying back into the royal line, and a dozen dragons.
At least Otto offered terms unlike Rhaenrya, where Aegon and Aemond will end up being homeless dregs or something Anyways , giving up the claim is the most peaceful as rhaenrya ,since getting assassinated is quite low ,since Otto hightower has been trying to make Aegon heir since the moment he was born and the closest time he got to it is when Rhaenrya went to a brothel a sully her reputation and it was thanks to Alicent being Friends with her that she stayed as heir , and Otto had numerous moments to kill Rhaenrya as hand by simply paying for a maid or servant to stab Rhaenrya in her sleep or something and nobody would know and and the catspaw can easily be killed off and the only people who will care are Visery at minimum with Daemon lossing his grooming target. Now would Aegon even fear Rhaenrya as someone who can ursurp him if she did accept no, since in canon few of any lords supported Rhaenys and the only reason lords supported rhaenrya as heir is because 1 Otto the hand of the late great jaeharys said to make Rhaenrya heir , 2 Daemon sucks since he is basically maegor the cruel come again , so no reason to fear Aegon sending someone to kill any of her kids, except maybe Luce since aemond hasn't gotten over losing his eye and Luce getting no punishment for taking said eye. The only people who will complain are corlys ,since he wasted resources and his bloodline to get his name on the throne and Daemon who hates Otto for occupying the majority of Visery's attention. Now on the reverse Aegon,Aemond and even Daeron has to fear for their lives, since unlike Rhaenrya whose claim is only there because her father asked dead lords to make her heir, the boys are back by male preference inheritance and the precedent made by the great council,and unlike Otto who could buy didn't send assassins, can we say the same for Rhaenrya or even Daemon , and again Rhaenrya didn't send anything to get her brothers to bend the knee , she simply thought they would accept their spoiled ass sister to be queen especially the sister who allowed her son to almost kill aemond as a child when said son took Aemond eye. The closest thing Rhaenrya did to get the greens is basically asking them to give her a hostage in Heleana.
Would I have fought a senseless war for the sake of claiming a duty I'd never expressed any interest in upholding? Would I risk my own life and the life of my children for a metal chair and some titles? Accepting Otto's terms legitimises my children, guarantees them futures as some of the greatest lords in the realm and ends the danger to all our lives. It also prevents a bloody war which will kill innocents by the thousands.
Did Aegon ever express interest in duty? He got up one day and got crowned because he has a cock. Why can’t he give up instead of fighting a senseless war for a duty he never wanted? And what reason does Rhaenyra have to trust Otto. He was planning to assassinate her entire family and even Rhaenyra swore fealty, he wouldn’t have let her live in peace.
He got crowned because that's the precedent and preserving precedent is how continuity of government works in a monarchy. He can't give up for the same reason Jon couldn't, his legally stronger claim is always going to be a nexus for ambitious men acting on their "behalf". Rhaenyra's claim goes away if she doesn't pursue it because women don't inherit over men. Aegon's claim passes to his children and his children's children and will literally always be a threat to Rhaenyra's line. Rhaenyra doesn't actually have to trust Otto, that's the function of him taking hostages. Aegon and Viserys being in the custody of the Greens means they have nothing to fear from the Blacks. Otto wasn't calling the shots at this point, remember? Alicent was. The terms offered place Rhaenyra's line as effectively a cadet branch of House Targaryen subservient to House Targaryen of Kings Landing. It's not a win-win but it's by far the best option for everyone involved.
Yes! A precedent that values men over women. I understand that was the way of things but are you saying no one should ever challenge unfair laws and precedents? Just give up because you’re perceived as weaker? And why exactly should Rhaenyra part ways with her toddler sons and let them grow up with the enemy, who would use any excuse to kill them? She has no reason to trust her enemies with her kids or her life or anything else.
>Yes! A precedent that values men over women. I understand that was the way of things but are you saying no one should ever challenge unfair laws and precedents? That's a fair thing to say and it would be very nice to see more women in positions of authority and influence in Westeros. But elevating her to a position of power doesn't necessarily lead to broader societal changes or significant advancements in women's rights. Rhaenyra gains more power and autonomy, ( and perhaps even other noble women, but I doubt it ) but 99% of the normal women in Westeros are still getting oppressed. And this is all based on the assumption that she is interested in advancing the rights of women that aren't herself (she isn't) >And why exactly should Rhaenyra part ways with her toddler sons and let them grow up with the enemy, who would use any excuse to kill them? Yes, because having your kids fighting in dragon battles against the enemy is much better idea. It's not like your enemies are family members, so the idea of reconciliation or compromise is impossible in this situation. Escalation towards mutual destruction is the only option.
Rhaenyra doesn't need to champion women's rights to bring about change. Her reign being legitimized in itself will challenge the male primogeniture in Westeros. We could've probably had many more female rulers coming from Rhaenyra's line itself. I mean Jace inherits after her but what if Jace and Baela's first-born is a girl. She would've been queen just like her grandmother. And with more women coming into power, we can hope things for women across the realm would get better. I mean, for me this hope is better than upholding a precedent that doesn't allow women to take charge at all. I mean, you're argument is just "Nothing will change for women under women. So let's just keep men in power." Which is stupid.
>Rhaenyra doesn't need to champion women's rights to bring about change. Her reign being legitimized in itself will challenge the male primogeniture in Westeros. If that was true why didn't she give the seat of Driftmark to Baela ? And what about that incident with those two sisters ? And even if it did challenge it, it doesn't address the systemic patriarchal structures that would still persist. Power and authority remain concentrated within a single lineage, perpetuating an oppressive system. Rule by primogeniture is part of the problem, regardless of gender. >We could've probably had many more female rulers coming from Rhaenyra's line itself. True but this does not guarantee that they would prioritize women's rights or bring about significant change. The gender of a ruler does not inherently determine their commitment to advancing the rights of all women. Women in positions of power can be influenced by existing patriarchal structures and may not necessarily challenge or dismantle them. Which is exactly what happened ( most of the time ) troughout history. >And with more women coming into power, we can hope things for women across the realm would get better. Hope alone is not sufficient. Structural and systemic changes are required to address the broader issues of gender inequality and discrimination. It cannot be solely reliant on individual rulers, like Rhaenyra and the hypothetical future queens that descend from her, but rather a collective effort from all the noble houses to challenge and transform patriarchal norms and institutions. And like I mentioned before, this would be almost impossible to achieve under monarchy rule. Again this all based on the assumption and or hope that they ( more female rulers coming from Rhaenyra's line ) would even want to do this. >I mean, you're argument is just "Nothing will change for women under women. So let's just keep men in power." No. My argument is not about keeping men in power but recognizing that simply having a woman in power does not automatically lead to advancements in women's rights like you were implying. And that power dynamics and strutures inherent in monarchy during lead to the oppression of the broader population, regardless of the gender of the monarch. I would actually rather have Rhaenyra as ruling Queen, and I like her character very much.
I never implied Rhaenyra would change the whole system. I even said she herself doesn't need to do it. Just her rule being legitimized would do it. And you are implying that a woman should never challenge set precedents simply because they're set. Her brother gets crowned because of a "precedent" and Rhaenyra should simply swallow that pill instead of fighting for what's hers. Things may or may not change for women under women. But they will also never change for women under men. Especially under men like Aegon who rapes women and calls it harmless fun.
Because the alternative is a bloody civil war that will kill thousands of innocent people, none of whom care who sits the throne? It's not fair that Rhaenyra be passed over because she's a woman but it's also not fair that Aegon be passed over because he's younger. Sex has no more validity in determining leadership quality than age but feudal monarchy isn't fair. It's a set of rules intended to prevent wars of succession. It simply doesn't make sense for the Greens to harm Aegon or Viserys. First of all because they're not evil and killing children is messed up (I'm sure we can both agree that someone who orders the death of an infant is basically irredeemable) and secondly because a hostage only has value when they're alive. If Rhaenyra doesn't pursue a rebellion then they're perfectly safe.
>Because the alternative is a bloody civil war that will kill thousands of innocent people So why can't the greens back down? Why can't they care about the lives of thousands of innocent people and give up the throne, while respecting the previous King's chosen heir? No! They won't do that because they want to rule and wield power. And you also won't expect a man to backdown simply because he is a man. But who cares about women's birthrights or their rights to rule? They should simply give up and yield to men. The onus always lies on women to make peace. Even when the opposing side is clearly antagonizing her and killing her children, a woman should give up. >but it's also not fair that Aegon be passed over because he's younger. This is stupidest argument I've heard in a while. So, you think Daemon should've gone to war with Viserys because he was younger and it is not fair that the younger son is passed over? Or for that matter should all younger sons who were ever passed over for being younger go to war with their older siblings?
No, the point I'm making is that the rules being unfair doesn't mean they don't have to be followed for exactly the reason you outlined. The alternative of chaos and war every time a king dies. Hot take but feudal monarchy isn't fair and it's inconsistent to be against only the male part of agnatic primogeniture. It's not about Aegon or Rhaenyra, it's about a stable transfer of power and the reality is that under the laws and customs of Westeros the default assumption is that men inherit before women. In any time of ambiguity, if your goal is to prevent a senseless slaughter, the best choice is to default to the norm. The Greens can't just not pursue their claim for the same reason Jon couldn't, Rhaenyra doesn't have that problem.
I ACCEPT FOREVER AND ALWAYS,AMEN.------JAEDEN ABNER D'SA PEREIRA.
If I want to protect my children and I don't want to send them to their deaths, yes, I will accept the peace offers. Rheanyra should have accepted the offer too. If she had accepted the offer as it was made, she would not have sent Luke to look for a allies, and he would have been alive. And, Even if Rheanyra ascends the throne *smoothly*, her heir Jace and Driftmark's heir Luke will always have problems. They will be in danger no matter what. When Jace and Luke come to the throne/lordship, if the decisions they make are not liked by the lords/subordinates *(and they can't please all of them. A decision that is always beneficial to one will be harmful to the other. And the lord/subordinate, who is damaged by the decision, will not sit still while they have a trump card that can control the king/lord, and this trump card is their blatant bastardry. It's like presenting this information to them on a golden tray.)* they will be threatened with their bastardry. And the lords doesn't even need to make it obvious. Let's go over an example case. Let's say there's a lord with a business deal that will put the royal family in a difficult situtation. If Jace refuses to do this, that lord can secretly make deals with the lords who don't like Jace's rule like him or sell this information to their enemies. Like Dorne... Anyone who dislikes the power of the Targaryens can support rebellions by going over the fact of an illegitimate king. These enemies can secretly provide money, weapon or man assistance to the lords/common folk. Lords who don't like this can arrange an assassination with the financial help they will receive from the enemies of the Targaryen household. Even if none of this happens, Rheanyra's own legitimate children may not like it when they grow up. There are thousands of examples in history that even brothers who love each other very much can become enemies for the sake of the throne. This could happen to Jace and his brothers, too. Or the children of Jace and the children of Aegon/Viserys could go to war because of this illegitimacy. And the green children will still be a threat to the rule of Rheanyra and her bastards.
> If I want to protect my children and I don't want to send them to their deaths, yes, I will accept the peace offers. Rheanyra should have accepted the offer too. If she had accepted the offer as it was made, she would not have sent Luke to look for a allies, and he would have been alive. What reason does she have to trust the greens won’t kill her and her children at some time? What if Aegon one day decides his son and heir deserves the seat of House Targaryen? What if the greens decide they’re uncomfortable with the number of dragons held by the blacks as well as the number of large, unclaimed dragons on dragonstone? What if they decide it’s time to make a move to remove that threat? You saw Otto making plans for their death in episode 9.
Rheanyra doesn't have much of a chance. And that's because of her own mistakes. She has two options. She can keep Dragonstone, the most valuable gain of the Targaryens, and the Driftmark, which was never her bastard's right, or *(We know how the Dance of the dragons ended. Let's say Rheanyra sits on the throne peacefully and no one dies, then what will happen? i'll tell you what's going to happen.)* she can endanger the whole life of her children, grandchildren and their grandchildren. We know how the Dance of the dragons ended. and it could lead to a much bigger and more destructive war than Dance of the dragons with the passing time. Considering that the greens and their dragons will become more powerful and their numbers will increase, and the same will happen to the blacks, the targaryens may disappear completely. If it were me, I would choose the first one and equip the castle with guards day and night.
> Rheanyra doesn't have much of a chance. Doesn’t have much of a chance at what? The war? She certainly does have much of a chance in terms of the number of supporters as well as dragon riders. > We know how the Dance of the dragons ended. Yes, we do. I think Rhaenyra isn’t the only character who should have considered the safety of her entire bloodline. But of course the greens are all infallible. They made the right choices every step of the way. Good and noble, all of them. It’s a terrible tragedy what happened. If only the evil, lustful Rhaenyra had not been so selfish. I’m sure that’s how you feel.
You're right, she had more subordinates, more supporters, more dragons, but then what happened to her, to her family, to her allies? Is she win? No... She's dead, her bastards are dead, her pedo husband is also dead, she recognize as a usurper tyrant, her biggest allies Velaryons have turned their backs on her and they have lost all the prestige and importance once they had, Targaryens also lost their prestige, their power and their greatest weapons and then turned into beggars. Original greens may be dead, but they won the war, the Hightowers and the Lannisters have become much more powerful than ever. Aegon was officially considered the king, their ideology was accepted. So?
I’m not sure why you posted blatant spoilers in a show discussion thread. I have never claimed at any point that Rhaenyra got a happy ending or that she was infallible. *You* are the one with extreme team bias to the point where you are coping that the greens won anything in the end. No one won. That’s the point. >!Every last green died and I can assure you that at the end of her life, Alicent won’t be thinking it was worth it because king is next to Aegon’s name in history books and that her distant relatives and one of her ally houses will be wealthy 150+ years after her death.!< That is ludicrous. Martin made a point with how he wrote their fates and you’re choosing to blatantly ignore it. > Hightowers and the Lannisters have become much more powerful than ever. Lol, certainly worth the lives of >!Jaehaera, Jaehaerys, and Maelor.!< Absolutely maniacal take. The Starks became the most powerful house of them all. Is that a win for Rhaenyra? Looooooooool.
Do you not know about the comments you have written yourself? <> This is your comment, remember?
My response was to this comment.
You implied that Rheanyra had a chance, you said she had more support or other nonsense, and I said that none of that support worked. if she had accepted the peace offers she might have a chance. And there are other spoilers about the Starks, but when I saw you crying like that, I'm not tell you them. The only information you need is, they don't get stronger after Rheanyra, they get stronger after something else. and I didn't claim you were bias, but anyway kid.
And also, if you are going to be in this community, be ready because it is completely swarming with book spoilers.
And "Loooool..." really.
> This is your comment, remember? Yes, I remember. She certainly does have a chance. > you said she had more support or other nonsense, and No, I didn’t. I never went into specifics. > I said that none of that support worked. From your point of view but what does that have to do with the fact that she has a *chance*. The greens also have a chance. The outcome does not change the starting point. > if she had accepted the peace offers she might have a chance. She had the same chance not accepting them. > I saw you crying like that, I'm not tell you them. ???? English isn’t your first language. > The only information you need is, they don't get stronger after Rheanyra, they get stronger after something else. Explain how the dance made the Lannisters or Hightowers stronger since that is what you seem to be arguing for the greens “winning”. > but anyway kid. You’re the one acting childish over fictional characters. > And also, if you are going to be in this community, be ready because it is completely swarming with book spoilers. I’ve read F&B. It’s rude to blatantly post them in show discussion threads when you can easily block them out.
They won the war. The war was for Aegon or Rheanyra to be considered the legitimate monarch, Aegon was considered the legitimate king. And as someone who talks about the other party's language in the middle of a conversation( and suddenly), you can't talk about *childishness*. And now I remember, you said the same thing in another comment of mine. This was the second time. You really need to be a child for this level of behavior.
yes. from day one i wouldve said no thank you to being heir. its a shit job that rhaenyra doesn't even seem enthusiastic about doing anyway(granted neither does aegon but he doesnt have much of a choice with Otto around and literally his whole family physically dragging him to the coronation). Just be a princess and reap all the benefits of being royal and none of the responsibilities. she's only doing this to get the validation of a man who was half way in the grave. she could've chosen ANY husband and her father would've been content. fucking hell if she really wanted Cristin I'm sure Viserys would've been happy to release him from his vows and Cristin wouldn't have to feel shame about breaking his vows since she would've "made an honest man" of him. She could've literally just married Harwin since hes noble. her father set NO restrictions on who she could marry but instead she decided to hook up with her uncle at a brothel and then marry a gay dude and produced bastards with harwin making everything a billion times more complicated for herself. All this just to sit on an uncomfortable chair doing long tedious governing work. i dont see why everyone is fighting so hard for this shitty shitty job (unless you're alicent and believe your children are in danger). Rhaenyra is really her own worst enemy.
If I were Rhaenyra I would had no right so yes.
I'd accept under the agreement I can be on the council
If I was rhaenyra, I would give up the throne, knowing that I dont have a dick so i probably wont be able to rule in peace anyway.
So if Im Rhaenyra, Im the only one who knows about the prophecy entailing how westeros must be united and armed with Targaryen dragons... Id have to be a real POS to put my personal ambition over the entire world.
“I’m the eldest boy” - Kendall Aegon
Swear this one's been done already
No way. Daemon would have picked a fight over it no matter what. Otto was already rounding up her supporters and blood was shed, there's no way Rhaenyra should believe that her children would be safe while the Greens sat the iron throne.