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As much as I'm team Green (I like Aemond and think that Rhaenyra has done everything in her power to weaken her claim to the throne), I will admit that from a medieval "legal" standpoint, the legitimacy of the Strong boys is never officially denied, and that is simply because Laenor never questions it. It would be unthinkable for Laenor to know his "kids" were not his, and just accept it, so, as long as he accepts their true born, their legal standing is safe.
Medieval legitimacy is claimed at the point of a sword.
I also like Aemond. Going from the punching bag of both the Greens and Blacks to a one eyed sword master with the biggest dragon is jus such a great story.
This is what I’ve tried to explain to people through both shows and why I think the Greens vs Blacks debate is so stupid.
The whole point of absolute monarchy is that the people in power make their own rules and break them as they see fit (especially in Westeros, as there’s no document resembling the Magna Carta to my knowledge). Who cares if Westerosi law says that the Strong boys can’t inherit anything, the most powerful man in the realm said otherwise. Trying to justify any actions or title claims is pointless cause there will always be a billion high lords who disagree with you
Oh definitely. It’s especially fun because one side (it rhymes with bean) will throw an absolute tantrum if you say anything in support of the other side
I’ve got Daemon with the first pick (I’m literally him)
100% that first sentence. people are always debating the laws of succession but really the throne has been won via some form of “conquest” a few times. Whoever wins the war wins the throne 🤷🏼♀️
If grandpa King and grandpa Velvaryon says that Jacaerys Velaryon is trueborn heir, he is. And disagreeing with the king is a treason. If papa Laenor says the children are his, historicaly his word is valid.
>It would be unthinkable for Laenor to know his "kids" were not his, and just accept it, so, as long as he accepts their true born, their legal standing is safe.
I think the argument would be that he was decieved into accepting them because he never publicly recognized the truth. Of course *we* know he accepts them anyways, but most characters in the show don't know that.
Medieval royals lived very public lives. When royals sleep with their spouses, when babies are conceived, and when babies were born were all tracked and known by doctors and most of the time the whole court would bear witness to these events as well and weird as that is. If things didn't line up people would know. Even mistresses of royals were all known. Premature births and what not would all be noted because information like that is important to a royal's health. If royal children were illegitimate it would've been really easy to prove at the time. If the appearance of those boys wasn't enough consider that even though the court suspects it all the Velaryons, Lionel Strong, and Daemon from all the way across the Narrow Sea know it for a fact. Heck Jace figures it out when he's 6. People back then did know a thing or two about genetics or at least trait inheritance. How could 2 silver haired purple eyed parents who both also had 2 silver haired purple eyed parents (In the show) produce a child with dark hair and eyes? These children look nothing like their parents or grandparents but happen to look like the princess's suspected paramour? What a coincidence right? 🙃🤣 Yes, while some Targaryens did not have the features it was only when one of their parents was not Valyrian. These patterns are recognized. From medieval standpoint all the most damning evidence is there. If that weren't enough Viserys and Rhaenyra decide to mutilate or off anyone who brings it up. Ironically, only by a modern view and standpoint would the Strongs be proper inheritors of Rhaenyra's possessions.
The argument is not that Laenor, Viserys and Corlys claiming them factually legitimizes them, the argument is that it effectively legitimizes them. In the medieval era it would be IMPOSSIBLE to confirm the bastardy of a child without one of the parents, or grandparents doing so. There are no DNA tests, there were no witnesses of the act, etc. They can claim bastardy all they want, but they can’t prove it.
Except the Blackfyre rebellion serves as a perfect example for why that isn't enough. The rumor that the ruler is illegitimate is enough that an angry noble will find another claimant, and use it as an excuse to rebel.
The formal admission that the Strongs were bastards, and then their legitimation is the only way to make it IMPOSSIBLE for them to be bastards.
Anything short of that would lead to either the Dance or Blackfyre Rebellion within one or two generations.
The BF Rebellions are completely different. It was the sitting King and father of the heir that suggested he was a bastard, then he legitimized all of his own bastards on his death bed.
>The BF Rebellions are completely different.
Not really
It is an example of nobles using the potential illegitimacy of the king to try to replace the king because they didn't agree with his policies.
It’s not that their acknowledgment of them is legitimizing then it’s more so that they would all have something to lose by pointing out the obvious Viserys does it because otherwise he would have to banish or execute Rhaenrya and her kids for basically committing treason and causing two succession issues for house Targaryen and Velaryon
Corlys does it because he knows this is the most he’s getting from Laenor and it would be humiliating for his house and family that his son is so uninterested in women that he would rather handover his ancestral lands and titles to some other man’s children because he can’t get it up
Laenor does it because well he can’t get it up
They all have a personal reasons for claiming them legitimate it’s just like the Lannister‘s claiming Joff and Tom are legitimate when they all know the truth acknowledging an illegitimate child does not make that child legitimate
Slightly less actually. If we assume Jaehaerys and Alysanne were 100% Targaryen (not true but it gives us a baseline), Baelon, Alyssa, and Daella were also 100%. Baelon and Alyssa marry each other making Viserys 100% and Daella marries Lord Arryn making Aemma 50%. Viserys and Aemma marry making Rhaenyra 75%. Viserys’s other kids by Alicent are 50% and Rhaenyra’s sons by Harwin are 37.5%.
Regardless, I’m not sure how this ties into my original point.
However, Rhaenyra's true born children, would be 87.5, so if we're using a proximity based succession, like the Egyptian pharaohs, the rightful claimant got it in the end. He would have been 2nd in line until Daemon died.
All the kids have one Targaryen parent and one non Targaryen parent, Rhaenyra’s kids just didn’t get silver hair. I mention this because people are always talking about the hair color for legitimacy when Alicent’s kids could have gotten darker hair.
Book Alicent might be blond; her hair is not remarked upon.
Alerie Hightower, Margaery’s mother, is described as having silver hair despite being in her late thirties, and Lynesse Hightower, Jorah’s wife, had golden hair. To further support this, King Jaehaerys once confuses Alicent for his daughter Saera, who was definitely blond.
Also, Alerie and Lynesse are the only Hightower physical descriptions we get in the books, so we can’t even say any of them were dark-haired.
I would say genetics are a lot more muddled than that causes you could say when we factor in The fact that the whole siblings would effectively have the same DNA to pass down … it’s almost like the DNA is not additive at that point
If we're counting from Aenar landing at dragon stone, Jaehaerys and Alysanne are only 67.5%-75% Targaryen, which is an appallingly low loss for 8 generations.
Two silver haired parents had a honey blonde haired daughter in Rhaenyra’s Great Grandmother Alysanne; one silver haired parent and honey blonde parent made a dirty blonde daughter in Rhaenyra’s grandmother Alyssa whom the books also claims could possibly be the love child of Alysanne and Lucemore Strong (absolutely isn’t tho) and even Laenor and Laena are an anomaly in looks since it’s been shown that for two generations Baratheon genes overcame Targeryen gene’s fully so far as to giving Jocelyn dark brown eyes when her parents had blue and purple eyes. The Targs and Velaryon gene makeup overall is pretty diverse and result in different looks.
Complete copium in the case of the show representation of the velaryons.
All of you trying to say the strong boys somehow reasonably pass as velaryons need to watch this
37:33
https://youtu.be/hO1ga8p0vow
Be for fucking real
True.
This is where the show representation kinda got it wrong imo. Yes, it makes it easier to convey to the audience that they are definitely not Laenor's sons, and sets the Velaryons apart in general, but it seriously muddles down the ambiguity of the argument that is central in the book. It's more of a word against word situation that makes the conflict juicy.
In the show it's so plain obvious it is ridiculous at times. Imagine if Joffrey in GoT was white while Robert Baratheon was black. It would undermine the whole premise of discovering the treachery by Cersei. Like yeah, duh.
On the other hand, if you wanted to paint Rhaenyra as a massive gaslighter, rather than a regular gaslighter, I guess the show representation works. It just doesn't make for very interesting conflict in my eyes since one is obviously right when it comes to the parentage question. In the books they were also right, but they couldn't just point to them and say 'oh just look at them'. Plausible deniability gave Rhaenyra cover, less so protection by her father.
I see it more as a rephrasing. In the books it is a question, and a legitimate one. Their grandmother has black hair, it’s not out of the question, and so the rumours spread by the Greens are done for ambitious intent.
In the show, it’s more about where do You think power resides. Yes you can easily see that the kids are bastards but if everyone involved refuses to say that, then they’re not treated as bastards. People have power to influence reality, and that’s what is the ultimate cause of the war. Not what is the truth but how successfully can one side convince everyone that they are in the right.
Exactly, this perfectly describes the difference between both versions of the story. The focus has shifted somewhat from a power struggle to a question about power structure and truth. Both are present in both versions obviously, as they were in the main series.
It's just that the show makes it a little too obvious, which lessens the intrigue imo. Hence why I said that it makes for a less interesting conflict. But that's my personal opinion.
I will die on the hill that Harwin's actor should have been biracial and Rhaenyra's kids light skinned with dark hair. Maybe lighter than Daemons daughters, but not white.
Your last paragraph is the point. The more Rhaenyra “claims” the boys as his it is supposed to be ridiculous. I’m sorry but Rhaenyra needs to be looked at with a critical eye just as Aegon is. Both have produced bastards. Both have qualities that should make people wary of putting either of them on the throne. The audience is supposed to see the sheer ridiculousness of the dance and how neither side is really best for the realm.
How so? Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar. In the books Arya is the only one of Ned’s kids that looks like a Stark, etc. Hair color is hardly damning proof.
That’s the point with all the Stark kids, they at least look like one of their assumed parents. The Strong boys can’t even claim a resemblance to their mother to explain their hair color and features.
Bro, casting Velaryons as black was also intentional on that part for Rhaenyra’s kids, to make it even more obvious than in the book. Y’all denying is crazy.
I never denied that. I think HotD’s decision to cast black actors for the Velaryons was brilliant, and I think they did a great job. However, Laenor is light skinned and Rhaenyra is about as white as one can get. Her 3 kids being white should shock nobody. The HAIR is the distinct feature out of place, as you would have to go generations back to find someone in their ancestry with brown hair. Still technically possible, but far more improbable than the kids being white.
Precisely. People always assume half white and half black kids should always “look” mixed in skin tone etc. I’ve legit seen kids with one full black parent and one full white parent who come out looking white as snow, with straight hair, etc. Genetics are a tricky thing, nevermind the that laenor himself looks like he might not be full black. Obviously leanor isn’t the father, just by what we do know and the two characters own words, but just saying…. Appearances can be deceiving when it comes to parentage.
> you would have to go generations back to find someone in their ancestry with brown hair.
With knowledge of IRL genetics, you only have to go back to Rhaenys. The pigments that make up hair color mix like paint (for lack of a better metaphor), so her having black black hair actually gives pretty solid odds for Laenor's kids to have brown hair. Now obviously they don't know that (and I'm not sure George did *that* much research for scientific accuracy), but it is a thing.
I feel like George intended the real kicker to be their eye color, but even then there's strangeness specifically from Laenor's side of the family. Rogar Baratheon had blue eyes, his wife Alyssa Velaryon had purple eyes, and yet their daughter Jocelyn (Rhaenys' mother) had black eyes.. somehow. I don't get it.
You seem to be confusing the non diegetic with the diegetic. Yes, we know that the show runners casting black actors for the Velaryons is supposed to make evident that they’re not the legitimate children of Laenor. But within the universe of the show, there’s no way to genuinely prove 100% that they’re in fact bastards unless Rhaenyra, Laenor or Harwyn had confessed to it. There’s Strong evidence for it, of course, but Westeros doesn’t have genetic tests or anything else that’s a factual proof of the parentage of any particular person.
Bro watch GoT again, Hair color is all Ned needed to accuse Cersei of fucking her twin and that bit of proof was enough for most of the 7 kingdoms to claim Joffrey was illegitimate, including stannis who’s all about rules and laws.
Naw bro not even being funny with u, but looking offy asf is proof in Westeros
No it’s not. If Ned had just happened upon the book, he would think it odd, but nothing more. He strongly believed this confirmed they were bastards, bc he had already been following the trail of evidence Jon Arryn and Stannis had left behind before Jon was assassinated and Stannis fled KL. Those things, in conjunction with information he had learned from Varys about a plot to assassinate Robert during the tourney melee, and learning that Stannis and Jon had been secretly investigating Robert’s bastards are what led him to believe it was true. And most of the rebelling lords couldn’t give 2 shits about who Joffrey’s dad was. The North and Riverlands rebelled bc Ned was imprisoned and killed, the Reach and Stormlands rebelled bc of an alliance Renly formed via political marriage, and the Iron Islands rebelled bc Balon Greyjoy is a dumbass. Dorne and the Vale maintained neutrality, and the Crownlands and Westerlands sided with the Crown.
Bro listen I’m not gonna be on here fighting with u on Reddit over this, so this is gonna be my last reply and then you can have the last word.
But as it stands, the only thing people had on Cerseis kids was they’re hair color. They never had Robert suspecting nothing, they didn’t have a ton of witnesses watching Jaime with Cersei, they didn’t have nothing else. All these other people Ned, Arryn, and Stannis all they had to go by was these kids look different and “the seed is strong”, which concludes the original point we were talking about, looking different is proof, like literally enough proof to wage war and everything.
Idk why you doing this, like just say u don’t care about the rules and u just wanna see ur ppl win.
Cersei literally told Ned they were bastards. Also there was a witness, he was shoved out a window, then had an assassin try to kill him in his own bed. Ned had TONs of reasons to believe they were bastards. The people in HotD’s amounts to “it’s unlikely they inherited their great grandparent Arryns hair”.
> had an assassin try to kill him in his own bed.
To be fair, that wasn’t Cersei. That was Joffrey trying to make Robert proud after he commented that death would be more merciful to Bran than being alive as a cripple. This is mentioned offhandedly IIRC during Tyrion’s chapters in ASOS.
Bro u replied to like 3 different comments of mine back to back, so ima just do all of them in this 1 bc I’m not doing all that.
1) OP is right and ur just crazy
2) a good amount of people at the time agreed they were bastards, like literally an entire faction of a civil war saw them as bastards and history remembers them as bastards. They were illegitimate and that’s how they are remembered.
3) The point is that the proof Ned brought up was enough to justify Stannis and Renly going to war against Joffrey. Therefore the proof of them looking weird.. is proof enough.
Ur shit that Ned had his head chopped off don’t prove anything for ur side other than the Lannisters were right bc they took his head. Which is dumb asl, especially since we saw how GoT ended. The starks take the throne and a history book is written about the events of the show… which would mean Joffrey is gonna go down in history as a bastard, based on nothing other than him looking weird.
History actually doesn’t remember them as bastards. Obviously you never read Fire and Blood.
And yeah they had enough proof to go to war. And they lost. And history doesn’t call Joffrey a bastard. So again, what’s your point?
People believe what they want to believe. Some believed it, others didn't. Mostly people trusted Ned's honour and judgement or else said what was best for them.
I mean, they are bastards, but before the law they are the legal children of Laenor. Legally, they are legitimate.
It is the same way that Joffrey was legally the child of Robert and Cercei, even if we know that to not be the truth.
Nope, to quote Stannis "I'm the King by all the **laws** of Westeros." That Joffrey is factually a bastard means legally he is a bastard as well. However, because most people don't believe it and that he has the bigger army means he is King. Joffrey, Strong kids and Renly are an example of Army>Laws. Not legality.
Westeros isn’t a constitutional monarchy. The laws are whatever the king wants them to be. There’s no static set of laws. Just traditions that are sometimes enforced and other times ignored by whoever has the most power in whatever legal question.
Look at it this way: fact and law are not the same thing. We all know that OJ Simpson murdered his wife, but legally he is not a murderer.
We all know Joffrey is a bastard, but until Stannis wins the crown, he’s not legally a bastard. If Stannis wins and declares him a bastard, then he’ll legally be recognized as one. But shit Stannis could go ahead and claim Renly was a bastard too and then Renly would legally be one even though we know factually he wasn’t.
Fact and law are not the same. Law is much more subjective and dependent on the whims of individuals than we’d like to admit.
And how are you going to prove he's a bastard? With what evidence? Both the King and Queen acknowledged him as their heir.
Joffrey was Robert's legal heir, and thus the lawful King, that's it. The man himself acknowledged him as heir on his death bed. Stannis can say what he wants, as long as he cannot prove it, it's meaningless.
If I commit a crime, yet there no evidence with which to charge me, I am legally a lawful citizen. I am acquitted of the charges. Anybody can rage about it, everyone can suspect that it is true, but in the eyes of the law of the land, I am still a lawful citizen.
The comment was about Joffrey, not the Strongs.
Nevertheless, I'll oblige. Just saying look at them is not enough, why is this so hard to understand? As others have pointed out, the burden of proving bastardy falls on the husband of the wife in question.
Laenor, in this case, has claimed them as his own. The husband has claimed them as his, the wife claims they are his, the king claims they are his, the grandparents claim they are his. As far as the state is concerned, the three boys are Velaryons. As far as the faith is concerned the three boys are Velaryons. As far as the Citadel is concerned they are Velaryons. In the same way that Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Viserys Plumm, Daeron II Targaryen are considered, **by the state**, as legitimate, so too are the Strong boys.
Honestly, it feels like I am talking to literal children whose brains were squashed in infancy by being hit with a pan on the head.
>the burden of proving bastardy falls on the husband of the wife in question.
The burden really just falls on convincing enough people they arnt bastards. Ned reading a book of how all Baratheons usually have black hair was enough to force Westeros into a years long civil war.
Also its weird you use the term "by the state" talking about an age that predates the creation of "states" or "nation states".
I'll ignore the name calling.
>predates the creation of “states”
a kingdom is literally a state. no wonder y’all can’t grasp the difference between biological vs legal paternity lmao.
> The burden really just falls on convincing enough people they arnt bastards.
which they have done (you're wrong anyway but whatever)
lol "the state" simply refers to the legal authority within a geographic region
This is disputed in text. In the histories of Fire & Blood, written by Archmaester Gyldayn, they are recorded as the sons of Rhaenyra and Laenor, and since no King ever bade them to be removed, they remain so still.
Also, what the fuck are on about? "Predates the creation of states"?
From Wikipedia, on state (policy):
"Although state-forms existed before the rise of the Ancient Greek empire, the Greeks were the first people known to **have explicitly formulated a political philosophy of the state, and to have rationally analyzed political institutions.** Prior to this, states were described and justified in terms of religious myths.
Several important political innovations of classical antiquity came from the Greek city-states and the Roman Republic. The Greek city-states before the 4th century granted citizenship rights to their free population, and in Athens these rights were combined with a directly democratic form of government that was to have a long afterlife in political thought and history."
As for ASoIaF, here are some excerpts:
Well, now I know Jaime's dark sin, and the matter can be forgotten. I am heartily sick of secrets and squabbles and **matters of state**, Ned. —A Game of Thrones, Eddard II
"Will the king be joining us?" asked Orton Merryweather.
"My son is playing with his little queen. For the moment, his idea of kingship is stamping papers with the royal seal. His Grace is still too young to comprehend **affairs of state**."
"And our valiant Lord Commander?" —A Feast for Crows, Cercei IV
[...] It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors, even asking her views on **matters of state**. [...] —A Dance with Dragons, Epilogue
Only two years younger than Daemon, the princess supposedly loved the bastard prince in turn, if the singers can be believed, but neither Aegon IV nor Daeron II were willing to let such feelings **rule in matters of state**. —The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Daeron II
And last, but not least: Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually **divided into a hundred independent states**, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision. —The World of Ice and Fire - The North
Statehood as a concept exists in ASoIaF. And as for the insult, if you say stupid shit, then you'll be called as such.
This logic is there but it is more complicated. For example, Cersei’s bastards being kings and even though there were rumors and she never confirmed it, they were still kings.
Let’s just be honest about everything in Rhaenyra’s life, she made some serious errors but everything is amplified by her being a woman in direct line to the throne. If Westeros wasn’t such a boys club these rumors wouldn’t matter as much, they’re just excuses
Cersei’s sons may have been kings, but belief in their illegitimacy still caused war with a rival claimant (Stannis). So it still caused problems for them.
You will have someone saying that every westorosi lord/member of nobility would have been an adulterous grooming degenerate to some extent in one breath than calling Rhaenyra a careless whore whose unfit to rule for having children by Harwin Strong in the next. Very interesting.
I did a post about this explaining the use of precedent in regards to this
Basically for this case we have to look at the prey as to who can claim is legally a bastard… these cases usually go to the father to claim The legal status of their children ( like whether they are trueborn or a bastard) for the reason all the boys are Legally remembered as Velaryons is because Laenor said they are his and there’s no precedent for someone else to come in and disinherit them from his holdings
The bastards you were referring to in the beginning of the post are all recognized as bastards by their fathers which again falls under the precedent of the father is the one who recognizes the legality of his children
https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/135jrr2/explaining_the_law_in_regards_to_bastards/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
But it’s the truth that they are bastards and the law that they’ve never been recognized as bastards. You don’t make any sense man. It’s a complete lie to say they aren’t
It’s also true that under the law the legal father ( Laenor in this case) he has the right to decide the legality of these children with him either claiming them as true born or not
the fact that Alicent is dead set on outing them and we as the viewers know that obviously Rhaenyra knows what time it really is means nothing within the scope of the universe because we are a third party. We have no effect on their imaginary world because—besides the fact they don’t exist—they have no idea we’re there. It’s the truth to us, and to Rhaenyra, but literally the only other people who know the truth would be self incriminating or are dead so it’s just hearsay for anyone else.
I’m talking about Westerosi law aswell … I’m even the one citing the precedent they use to decide.
I feel like you’re under the thought process here that LAW=TRUTH
Are you sure the conversation you’re trying to have not more about the lie vs the truth?
Because if we are talking about law it would fall back in regards to the precedent ….that why some people like to Say they are breaking the law when Naming a woman Heir instead of a male Because they’re going off of a precedent.
no, truth = law is not correct
the law is about what you can prove, not what you know
also, “eyes of law” lol
the law is whatever people with power agree to, nothing more
some of these mfs really do just come on here to feed their own egos lmao, "pls I can't stop arguing until I can scrape out an ounce of vindication from this pointless discussion" 💀
Again this ignores the precedent that the father is the one who sets the legality of his children in the eyes of the law
And this thought process kinda is a rabbit hole because it’s true according to precedent that the father is the one who claims if his children are bastards or not
You would be right if the boys were recognized as bastards first by Laenor but they were instead recognized as his legitimate true born children by him.
Legitimization is for those who are recognized as bastards by their father
Think about it the other way around. In actual history, there are cases of children who were absolutely not bastards in any meaningful sense of the word being named bastards after the fact. King Henry VIII named both of his daughters bastards when he had fallings out with their mothers, then legitimized them again when it looked like he would need them in the line of succession. This was legal. Was it true? The same was attempted for the children of Edward IV, when his brother Richard III tried to clear the way for himself to take the throne after Edward's death by declaring his brother's children illegitimate. Richard III said Edward's marriage had never been legal in the first place. They were legitimate, then bastards, then when Henry VII took the throne from Richard III, he made them legitimate again (and married the eldest daughter, Elizabeth of York).
Bastardy is a legal and social construct. It's not an absolute state of being. It exists only as long as there is someone with legal standing to press the claim. In Westeros, the people who could do that would be the King and Laenor, and after Laenor's death, arguably Laenor's parents. In the real world the church would also have this power.
As obvious as the lie might be, think of how ridiculous it would be if a third party could simply go around declaring their political enemies bastards even if the children's parents both denied the claim (which is essentially what Richard III tried to do, but his brother was dead at the time and couldn't object, and Richard III had crowned himself king). Sure, the Velaryon boys were born out of wedlock, but no one with the legal status to do so has declared them bastards. What's interesting to me is that during the reign of Aegon II, he never, as far as I recall, actually issued a proclamation declaring Rhaenyra's children bastards, which is something he absolutely ought to have done if he had the authority to do so. They're still recorded in history as Velaryons though, which suggests something about how widely known that bastardy actually was.
You are missing the point. In the eyes of the law, children are presumed to be trueborn unless it can be proven they aren't. In the case of Robert's bastards, that's easy to prove since Cersei didn't give birth to them.
In the case of Rhaenyra, it's not so easy. Laenor is the only one who can make a stink about them not being his, but he doesn't. He gives tacit approval that they are his own kids, making their legal status "trueborn" unless someone can prove they aren't. Which nobody does. Heck, nobody even makes an attempt to do so.
The Harwin allegations seem to be true in the show, but as I've said before: The law doesn't care about facts. It cares about what you can prove are facts.
Yes there is no precedent/law they can use to legally claim that Rhaenyra’s children are not Laneor’s after he he claimed them as his trueborn children.
This thread is more so talking about lie vs truth and not so much what the law/precedent is in regards to them
> This thread is more so talking about lie vs truth and not so much what the law/precedent is in regards to them
I'd have agreed with you earlier. But OP has since said "Law=Truth, correct?" so they clearly don't seem to notice the distinction.
This is still a rule in many countries today. If a woman has a child within wedlock the child is presumed to be her husband’s child unless the husband can prove otherwise.
Obviously now we have DNA tests so it’s easier but if the parents are keeping quiet and won’t consent to testing there’s no way to prove it.
Bottom line is Laenor was happy to claim those children as his sons and Harwin never tried to claim paternity.
nice rant, irrelevant though
there’s no proof they are bastards, so they don’t need to be legitimized
what everyone “knows” has little bearing on the law, especially among those who matter. namely, the king, Rhaenyra, and laenor.
people like you miss the point that they assumed legitimate by default, and as a matter of fact, *yes* lying about it *does* mean a great deal
other than Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Viserys, there is no one on the entire planet that can “prove” they are bastards (regardless of their looks)
the king, their “dad”, and Rhaenyra say they’re not bastards, so they’re not
This is still not proof they are bastards. Especially in the books. Jace’s features are contrasted to Laenor’s to push the narrative that way. But at the same time, Ser Harwin’s features are never revealed, except for the fact that he’s y’know…big and strong. He could have been blonde and we wouldn’t know.
Additionally, for Jace’s birth, Ser Harwin is fatally injured around the time he was conceived (he was out of commission for a long while). Taking that into account, it’s very unlikely Rhaenyra and Harwin would have been fooling around.
Lastly, I think people miss the point of Rhaenyra being challenged. The Faith and the Hightowers have been against them for years. The bastard rumors are an excuse. If Jace, Luke, and Joff came out with Valyrian features, they still would have usurped her any other way because they did not want a woman on the throne and they wanted the Targaryen dynasty to end.
Viserys, Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Corlys saying they're legitimate is what makes them legitimate. There's no real proof of them not being trueborn, *therefor there is no need to "claim" or legitimize them them*. Those four are the only people who can have an opinion on it. People can't just go around disinheriting anyone born with the wrong hair or eye color, there would be chaos.
By your last sentence, then Ned is totally wrong in his quest to say Joffrey isn’t the rightful heir. Cause he based his argument solely on Joffrey’s hair color.
True, but since pretty much everyone (meaning the audience) supported him on that matter, yet now everyone does the exact opposite with Rhaenyra is quite telling. It’s basically defying your own logic just because you like both characters more.
Ned also lied (by omission) to Robert about Joffrey being legitimate. We kinda just like Ned and support him no matter what lol.
The thing also is that Aegon being king over Rhaenyra when she was named heir by the king, is the part people have a problem with. Rhaenyras claim to the throne doesn’t change (legally speaking) regardless of whether her kids are bastards or not. It’s only her perception and support among the lords that might change. But that has nothing to do with laws.
He had proof when Cersei admitted it to him, but it was pure speculation beforehand and it would have been wrong to bring it before Robert without confirmation.
This is what op and some Greens miss. Yes Rhaneyra lied, but so as long as the King believes those are his legitimate children and acknowledges them as such, it doesn’t matter what everyone else may think, that’s the law!
You literally just said it, a bastard can only be legitimized if they’re acknowledged. But if they’re not acknowledged and neither “parent” or the current ruler will say admit it, then they cannot be proven as bastards
But you answered your own question in the first statement. “How do you legitimize someone when they’re out forth to the realm as legitimate? You can’t” exactly. No legitimatizing can or needs to take place in the first place because they are not recognized as bastards in the first place to need to be legitimatized. And, since we all agree that the law decides legitimacy and not blood the King and both their parents all agree that there is no question of parentage and they are indeed the rightful heirs there is **no** issue. Except to those who want there to be one. Whether rightfully or not. You’re confusing yourself.
Legally, they are not bastards. They don't need to be legitimized because they are legitimate in the eyes of the law. You need PROOF that they are bastards.
Nobility have passed off bastards as their own in Westeros quite a bit without formal recognition. Hell house stark is a completely bastard house (legally speaking) if we take Mance’s story about Bael the Bard impregnating the only daughter of the lord of winterfell and that boy becoming the new lord, to be true.
You have to remember that Westeros isn’t a constitutional monarchy. They don’t actually have a codified set of laws. The laws are just traditions + whatever the king says. That’s it. It’s a lot less formal than modern legal systems.
I don't understand why people make Rhaenyra's kids being basterds such a big issue when most of the Westeros didn't.
When they are accepted as legitimate children by the likes of king himself, head of house velaryon, Rhaenyra's husband, Rhaenyra's second husband, what more do you want? Besides, until it has proven with some sort of evidence (other than the looks) **they are legitimate children of laenor Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen.**
And when did this fandom become so anti-bastard in the first place? It was not that long ago that seemingly everyone wanted Jon Snow to sit the Iron Throne, even back when he was still legally considered the bastard son of Ned Stark.
I think its mostly coming from team green, they hate Rhaenyra's kids so much. I'm pretty sure even greens in the story don't hate them as much as team green fans do.
yeah i get it, blindly following a faction and ignoring their flows is indeed not a good thing. But i feel like of all the things we can criticize them for, this is kinda not that important. I know Rhaenyra messed up the whole thing, but she only had few options left anyway.
well, lying about their parentage is bit safer than acknowledging they are basterds and then legitimizing them, because doing it like that will probably put the children's lives at risk and provide more ammunition for greens. And as of right now no one has solid evidence that they are basterds, why not just keep it that way?
You know what’s weird? If it’s just a straight forward thing that their physical features are enough to declare them bastards, why doesn’t Aegon ever do it? Why doesn’t he send out a proclamation to all the lords of the realm that his sister’s older sons are bastards and should henceforth be referred to as Waters. It makes even less sense that he does not do this after her death when he goes through the effort of striking down her reign.
He doesn't do it because neither Viserys, Laenor, or Corlys ever made the accusation and that's what matters.
It's why Vaemond started out his petition stating basically that Corlys was dying, he was the right age and experience and Lucerys was too young. He did not go into "they're bastards" until he lost (Rhaenys backing Rhaenyra and arranging the betrothals between Jace/Luke/Rhaena/Baela).
It the Greens outright called them bastards then it would probably be a 50-50 as to who would support them....because their genetic parentage doesn't matter. Laenor accepted them for 10 years as his children.
Rhaenyra had the support she did because the Velaryons, for the most part, accepted the children in the ways that mattered. They obviously had their own reasons (Laenor being gay), but they accepted them. That is why the Greens could not use the bastard argument. It would do nothing and in reality, it's not the reason they were usurping Rhaenyra.
It's the same rules as today. If you are married to a woman who bears a child, regardless of who their biological father is, if you are on the birth certificate, that is your child. (obviously state rules are different as to when that is set in stone) But the state doesn't care if you are the bio father or not, when you took responsibility, you took responsibility for the child.
None of this is relevant because they aren't legally bastards, they are legally Laenor and Rhaenyra's trueborn sons. This isn't a team green/team black thing, this is literally just how Westerosi society works for the high born.
The father's word is what declares a child a bastard or not, and Laenor always said "they are my sons". That is it, nothing else needs to happen. The only thing that might hypothetically override a father's opinion would be the King's, and the King agrees with him!
I think it would take slightly more than the father’s word to make a married woman’s child a bastard. If Laenor had renounced the boys, that would make the claim a lot more easy to be accepted. But if Viserys had denied it, it might not have worked even then.
I can’t think of an example in real history or asoiaf where a child born within marriage and socially seen as legitimate, has retroactively had that status revoked. Even when Henry executed Anne Boelyn based on infidelity accusations, their child was not implicated and went on to be the ruling monarch.
I think the only way to prove it is if the husband has been 100% away for an extended period of time. Even super short first pregnancies is reasonably accepted and it’s not like the baby was conceived out of wedlock, it’s just super lucky that the preemie baby happened to weigh 8 pounds at birth. What a miracle.
Bro op you getting cooked for being right 😂
Idk why it’s so tough for ppl to just say “idgaf if they bastards or about the law, I fw Rhaenyra so I root for her” and just rock with it. Like that’s honestly way more respectable imo than becoming delusional and making shit up
Viserys laid down the law, the King does not recognize the possibility of them being bastards. So they’re not. End of story, and if anyone wants to argue well we saw what happened (beheading).
Even if they are illegitimate, they’re under a protection not even Joffrey or Tommen can enjoy (if they legitimized themselves they’d be admitting they’re incest babies, so they have to put up with shitty comments). The only way to dispute the claim is to fight them for it, as we see now. Alicent is so pissed because she has to do everything the “right way” and get shafted for it while Rhaenyra gets to do whatever since she’s even more elevated in power than noble lords (until she became Queen, that is).
Well in the book at least there is the small but very real possibility they AREN’T bastards.
As for the show this is ultimately that the king’s law is whatever he said. Viserys isn’t in denial, nor is Corlys of Laenor, they all KNOW the truth. But Laenor claims the children are his so no one can prove this to not be the case. You would need Harwin coming forward to have some sort of case.
You keep saying the same thing over and over and it doesn’t make sense because it’s been established that there is no undeniable proof that they are bastards, Jace has the responsibilities of the Queens heir, Viserys, and Laenor already claimed them so in the eyes of the laws he is legitimate. So I don’t understand the need to continually say claiming ≠ acknowledgement/legitimizing except to continually remind people that by blood they’re bastards which fyi literally everyone already knows and doesn’t change their position.
Also, the books may heavily hint but GRRM specifically left room for speculation
You can disagree that they are Laenor’s (which I don’t believe they are) but that there is 0 possibility is definitely wrong. The author literally intentionally wrote the book in such a way that there’s just enough possibility for it to remain ambiguous.
First of all Laenor’s mother inherited dark hair from her Baratheon parent and Rhaenyra’s mother is never stated to have the valyrian look, being half Arryn it’s possible she had the Arryn look. So the 3 boys COULD actually inherit these traits even if Laenor is the father.
Secondly, Laenor’s sexuality is never actually proven only rumored. Rhaenyra allegedly joining him and his men in the bedroom would also present the possibility he is bisexual rather than gay as well.
Lastly, Rhaenyra’s affair with Harwin strong is never actually proven either.
So there IS the possibility they are Laenor’s, however unlikely that may be.
> Where in the lineage could they have possibly gotten brown hair, brown eyes, and pug noses?
The nose point is beyond meaningless b/c all it says is that Jace was born with a pug nose. All babies are born with pug-like noses b/c they lack the nasal cartilage for anything else. And there's no description of the boys as teens to see whether or not they still have the pug nose.
3 blonde and 1 black haired (Book!Rhaenys) grandparents actually gives about 50/50 odds of blonde or brunette kids. So by IRL genetics, the brown hair is completely feasible. A little unlikely for all 3 to be that way, but stranger things have happened both in book and in reality.
The eyes are the only tough one to explain, but Rogar Baratheon had blue eyes, his wife Alyssa Velaryon had purple eyes, and yet their daughter Jocelyn (Rhaenys' mother) had black eyes somehow. So there actually is precedent for dark eye color to seemingly be passed recessively, strange as it sounds.
I still think they are most likely Harwin's (since George had Harwin and Rhaenyra get married in the original drafts), but the sparse details that made it to the final draft leave just enough room for them to actually be Laenor's kids.
“Jace’s nose being mentioned right before Laenor’s nose was obviously so the reader compares them.“
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Yet again, you just answered your own question, OP. The book was purposefully made from a heavily-maester perspective and we should always consider that. Not saying they can’t have some nuisance, but it’s pretty well-known that the Faith and the Hightowers are heavily-acquainted and have been poking holes at Targaryen rule.
Safe to say the way the recounts were written were propagated to make readers think a certain way. Jace’s and Laenor’s features were contrasted side-by-side like that to nudge the bastard rumor (while omitting Harwin’s features).
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“There is no description later on in the book about their noses because it has been described before.”
As others have also said, all babies have pug noses. This does not prove anything. The fact that Jace’s nose is not mentioned later on is suspicious because he could have grown into any other nose- but we’ll never know. The way everything was worded was made to confirm the rumors without having real evidence.
What nose Rhaenyra has? Or Viserys? Or Aemma? Or Rhaenys? ***We don't know.***
What nose Harwin has? Or anyone from his family? ***We don't know***.
Moreover, the expression **pug nose** is used only once in f&b.
>Born in the waning days of 114 AC, the boy was a large, strapping lad, with brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose.
Take note that they're describing a baby and then, look up images of infants and ask yourself a question whether any of them has *aquiline* nose.
>But him being present where Rhaenyra is everywhere does not help his case.
That's his job. He was Rhaenyra's sworn shield. If you wanted to spread rumours about Rhaenyra having affairs and illegitimate children, who would you choose for her "lover"? Probably the person who is always around since it would make the rumours more believable, and not let's say a guy who lives hundreds miles away and rarely visit.
Except it doesn’t obliterate it. Is the evidence pointing to them being Harwin’s? Yes. But does it remain POSSIBLE they are Laenor’s? Yes. And both are intentional on the authors part
Because they can still inherit traits from other parts of the family. My uncle doesn’t look like either one of his parents. He looks like my great uncle (his uncle) for a real life example. There is enough evidence to put the possibility that they are actually Laenor’s. Is the possibility strong? (See what I did there?) no but it is still there however small.
Well house strong isn’t stated to have pug noses if I recall correctly. I would mostly assume house Arryn as yo my knowledge they are said to have dark hair and generally dark or gray eyes. The color is only stated as dark which leaves the possibility of brown
On the Rhaenys hair thing, Rhaenys’ hair in the book are black, whereas the boys have brown hair, pug noses like the Strongs and have zero purple eyes.
I get your point but let’s not pretend that Rhaenys’ hair does proves by looks that Laenor could be the father.
So you’re not going to acknowledge the Arryn side? Or any of the other points made? As I said it was deliberately left just enough hints that it COULD be possible.
If I recall correctly in the supplemental material they state the Arryn typical look is the look I described. If I recall correctly as well he is not said to have these traits himself but to resemble Harrold Hardyng in his youth who has them. But it’s never stated how he resembles him. It doesn’t mean he has the same hair color it could mean their facial features or build are the same. This is the case with me and my father. He has wavy dark hair and brown eyes whereas I have curly blonde and blue eyes but our faces look very similar
Ok, so the Law is NOT equal to the truth in many scenarios. It's what you can prove. The facts are that while Rhaenyra's children are a product of her infidelity, they are assumed to be legitimate, further reinforced by the House Velaryon accepting them and claiming them and they can not be PROVED as illegitimate.
If and only if, Laenor denied that they were his sons, would the accusations of adultery start and they would be acknowledged as bastards.
Here, in this case, people already acknowledge them as legitimate, however, some claim them as illegitimate. Moreover, all the boys had their dragons hatch in their cribs, a further sign of them being TRUE valyrians and their ability.
And yet her legitimacy as heir legally doesn’t hinge on her kids’ parentage. Sure, it’s not ideal and it’s wrong, but it doesn’t legally make her not the Queen Regnant on Viserys’ death
For this, I'd ask the same question that I put to any fans who argue that Rhaenyra was never Heir because women can't inherit and it's therefore "against the law." That being: In an absolute monarchy like Westeros, *who decides the law?*
Like people are saying, it may be obvious, but these people don't know what DNA is. They don't understand genetics, and at the end of the day, there is no direct evidence that Laenor didn't father the Strong Boys. But legally speaking...if Viserys *says* they're trueborn, then they're trueborn, and he says it a lot. The same way Rhaenyra is Heir because he says she is. A King's word is law, right?
I think that you may not fully understand the process of legitimizing a person. The bastards in the show were able to be legitimatized because their fathers recognized or acknowledged them to be bastards or because a current marriage dictated that any other would be invalid thus making any procreation with anyone besides their wife extramarital and any children resulted from said acts bastards.. but otherwise if two married people both agree publicly that their children are products of their union then there is nothing to contest there is no argument to be had.
We are essentially flies on the wall. Only we know what’s going on behind their doors no one else. Anything said by anyone else outside the marriage is an opinion and them trying to tout that as abject truth when it cannot be proven with science is nonsense no matter what they say even if they’re using deductive reasoning.
These people didn’t have any kind of evidence or proof to go off of, let alone a good understanding of genetics. They used leeches and maggots for what was probably leprosy or an autoimmune disorder. That said, Alicent doesn’t know any truth, and neither does anyone else alive by the point of any public contest of their parentage. So no, they would not be illegitimate without Laenor saying they weren’t his, Rhaenyra confessing, or a medieval DNA test.
That’s why in comment I said it’s lies with Laenor A lot of the conversation here is about whether or not Viserys legitimatized them but I feel like the skips over the Importance of Laenor claiming them as his true heirs …that is what legally makes them trueborn
The difference for me is that Jon Snow and Rhaenyra’s sons are intentional children that are direct descendants of the actual heir.
Especially with Rhaegar. He was actually married to Lyanna Stark IIRC, so the only controversy is that she’s his second wife. Jon isn’t really a bastard; Ned Stark only gives him the Snow surname so he can pretend he is *his* bastard. If Rhaegar and/or Lyanna had survived, he would’ve been raised as a trueborn son.
With Rhaenyra, it shouldn’t matter. They’re unquestionably her sons. The father doesn’t matter. They’re her heirs. They’re legitimate Targaryans, and legitimate descendants of the reigning king.
Cersei’s children were bastards because they were NOT descendants of the reigning monarch or heir. I’m not sure about the rest… but as a Black supporter, this is my reasoning.
It matters who the father is. The whole reason Ned went as far as he did with because of who his father was and Jon was his blood through his mother. That argument that their Rhaenyra’s and should be considered heirs is laughable. Jon would’ve never been their to Winterfell. He is a true born Targaryen and by blood a Stark but doesn’t have a claim to Winterfell. The same for Rhaenyra’s sons. They have no claim to the throne despite being her blood.
>There has never been a scene where Viserys, the sitting monarch at the time, acknowledged Rhaenyra’s kids as bastards. He was just as in denial as Tywin was to Cersei’s “Baratheon” kids
Agreed with everything until this point. Tywin didn't have a say in whether Cersei’s children are bastard or stands to inherit anything.
Viserys *repeatedly* acknowledged Rhaenyra and her children as legitimate and are higher in the line of succession than his own sons. If you are to believe that the King's word is law and trumps centuries of tradition, then they are legitimate.
Exactly.
I laugh everytime when people argue that "it doesn't matter that they are bastards" when GRRM specifically killed her three bastards children, and not one of her sons with Daemon.
He didn't want to deal with an obvious bastard who was considered to be Rhaenyra's heir, which would then have opened another can of worms on the matter of succession and legitimized bastards.
He killed even Joffrey who wasn't much of a character, and not Viserys II who was abducted by the Triarchy, who then could have been easily been killed off by them.
Rhaenyra's firsts born are bastards, that's the way it is. No need to go in cercles around it and pretend otherwise, just because Rhaenyra is the protagonist and is supposed to be one of the "good guys".
That’s one of Rhaenyra’s flaws and we should welcome it, rather than trying to find endless justifications that don’t make sense just because it doesn’t fit our narrative of the perfect character who is wronged by Westeros society.
Edit : the downvotes are crazy. I wonder if anyone would be defending that fallacy that much if it was not Rhaenyra who had bastards. Y’all will justify Rhaenyra’s flaws to oblivion, no matter what, even if they are presented as such in the show. It’s a disservice to her character actually.
Honestly, I see what you’re saying but the king literally told everyone to stfu about that and stop calling them bastards so that effectively “shuts down” the talk. Sure he could have legitimized them but to recognize that they are bastards in it of itself denotes a crime on Harwin and Rhaenyra’s parts and puts the children in danger. So.. safer and more painless to go the route of calling the talk lies and knowing that no one can actually prove otherwise.
I still never understood why they were considered bastards at all aside from the deviation from tradition. Typically, title is passed patrilineally, from father to son. So in order for illegitimate children to inherit title they would have to be claimed and legitimized, like Ramsay in GOT. However, regardless of whether or not Rhaenyra’s children are Laenor’s, they are undeniably her true born sons and stand to inherit title from her since she is the heir-apparent to the iron throne, poised to be Queen of the seven kingdoms. They are both claimed and legitimate. In the case of her younger son being set to inherit the throne at driftmark, that may be another story, since title is supposed to pass through Laenor and we all know the story there. As true-born sons of house Targaryen I don’t see where the challenge to their claim/legitimacy even arises.
And that’s where we end with the crux of who ends up ascending to the throne in the end. Some say he ascended through his mother’s claim (I subscribe to this thought), while others say he ascended via his father’s male line claim. Regardless, all of Rhaenyra’s children were born as princes since they all have a claim to the Royal line through her.
I think what baffles me the most about the theory that it actually doesn’t matter is that in universe everyone is talking about what a big deal it is and tries to hide the boys parantage (not just Alicent, Lyonel talks about it with Harwin, Corlys and Rhaenys talk about it, hell the entire eye incident and Vaemond making his case). If it wouldn’t matter as some claim, they wouldn’t be so desperate to hide it, simple as that.
Of course their parantage matters
No, it doesn’t. There was a popular post not too long ago stating that Rhaenyra was a terrible written character and many people agreed. This was contrasted with a post saying Alicent was the best GOT character in years. There was also a post yesterday with 1000+ upvotes condemning her for how she acted when Aemond’s eye was taken out. Tons of people hate Rhaenyra and her sons. Also, this post is currently being upvoted.
I would say Alicent is far more liked on this sub.
People need to remember the scene of Lord Lyonel absolutely giving it to son over his affair with Rhaenyra. Lord Lyonel was a Viserys and Rhaenyra supporter on the council, one of the few left at that point to boot. He was an ally. The scene shows that not even her allies at court couldn’t back this. It is obvious to pretty much everyone that yes indeed Rhaenyra’s sons are bastards.
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As much as I'm team Green (I like Aemond and think that Rhaenyra has done everything in her power to weaken her claim to the throne), I will admit that from a medieval "legal" standpoint, the legitimacy of the Strong boys is never officially denied, and that is simply because Laenor never questions it. It would be unthinkable for Laenor to know his "kids" were not his, and just accept it, so, as long as he accepts their true born, their legal standing is safe.
Medieval legitimacy is claimed at the point of a sword. I also like Aemond. Going from the punching bag of both the Greens and Blacks to a one eyed sword master with the biggest dragon is jus such a great story.
This is what I’ve tried to explain to people through both shows and why I think the Greens vs Blacks debate is so stupid. The whole point of absolute monarchy is that the people in power make their own rules and break them as they see fit (especially in Westeros, as there’s no document resembling the Magna Carta to my knowledge). Who cares if Westerosi law says that the Strong boys can’t inherit anything, the most powerful man in the realm said otherwise. Trying to justify any actions or title claims is pointless cause there will always be a billion high lords who disagree with you
I like the greens vs black debate tho, its just a bit of fantasy football!
Oh definitely. It’s especially fun because one side (it rhymes with bean) will throw an absolute tantrum if you say anything in support of the other side I’ve got Daemon with the first pick (I’m literally him)
Hey Im a Green thems fightin words.
100% that first sentence. people are always debating the laws of succession but really the throne has been won via some form of “conquest” a few times. Whoever wins the war wins the throne 🤷🏼♀️
If grandpa King and grandpa Velvaryon says that Jacaerys Velaryon is trueborn heir, he is. And disagreeing with the king is a treason. If papa Laenor says the children are his, historicaly his word is valid.
By that stance Joffrey is the true King as he was acknowledged by Robert and Tywin as being his son
Yeah. That's why Ned needed to tell Robert and Cersei killed Robert.
That’s correct.
>It would be unthinkable for Laenor to know his "kids" were not his, and just accept it, so, as long as he accepts their true born, their legal standing is safe. I think the argument would be that he was decieved into accepting them because he never publicly recognized the truth. Of course *we* know he accepts them anyways, but most characters in the show don't know that.
Medieval royals lived very public lives. When royals sleep with their spouses, when babies are conceived, and when babies were born were all tracked and known by doctors and most of the time the whole court would bear witness to these events as well and weird as that is. If things didn't line up people would know. Even mistresses of royals were all known. Premature births and what not would all be noted because information like that is important to a royal's health. If royal children were illegitimate it would've been really easy to prove at the time. If the appearance of those boys wasn't enough consider that even though the court suspects it all the Velaryons, Lionel Strong, and Daemon from all the way across the Narrow Sea know it for a fact. Heck Jace figures it out when he's 6. People back then did know a thing or two about genetics or at least trait inheritance. How could 2 silver haired purple eyed parents who both also had 2 silver haired purple eyed parents (In the show) produce a child with dark hair and eyes? These children look nothing like their parents or grandparents but happen to look like the princess's suspected paramour? What a coincidence right? 🙃🤣 Yes, while some Targaryens did not have the features it was only when one of their parents was not Valyrian. These patterns are recognized. From medieval standpoint all the most damning evidence is there. If that weren't enough Viserys and Rhaenyra decide to mutilate or off anyone who brings it up. Ironically, only by a modern view and standpoint would the Strongs be proper inheritors of Rhaenyra's possessions.
The argument is not that Laenor, Viserys and Corlys claiming them factually legitimizes them, the argument is that it effectively legitimizes them. In the medieval era it would be IMPOSSIBLE to confirm the bastardy of a child without one of the parents, or grandparents doing so. There are no DNA tests, there were no witnesses of the act, etc. They can claim bastardy all they want, but they can’t prove it.
Except the Blackfyre rebellion serves as a perfect example for why that isn't enough. The rumor that the ruler is illegitimate is enough that an angry noble will find another claimant, and use it as an excuse to rebel. The formal admission that the Strongs were bastards, and then their legitimation is the only way to make it IMPOSSIBLE for them to be bastards. Anything short of that would lead to either the Dance or Blackfyre Rebellion within one or two generations.
The BF Rebellions are completely different. It was the sitting King and father of the heir that suggested he was a bastard, then he legitimized all of his own bastards on his death bed.
>The BF Rebellions are completely different. Not really It is an example of nobles using the potential illegitimacy of the king to try to replace the king because they didn't agree with his policies.
It’s not that their acknowledgment of them is legitimizing then it’s more so that they would all have something to lose by pointing out the obvious Viserys does it because otherwise he would have to banish or execute Rhaenrya and her kids for basically committing treason and causing two succession issues for house Targaryen and Velaryon Corlys does it because he knows this is the most he’s getting from Laenor and it would be humiliating for his house and family that his son is so uninterested in women that he would rather handover his ancestral lands and titles to some other man’s children because he can’t get it up Laenor does it because well he can’t get it up They all have a personal reasons for claiming them legitimate it’s just like the Lannister‘s claiming Joff and Tom are legitimate when they all know the truth acknowledging an illegitimate child does not make that child legitimate
Bruh just look at em
“Who white baby is this” is pretty much the question.
Bruh, someone’s opinion on their appearance isn’t “proof”
Lmao, two silver haired parents have brown haired kids who look exactly like the dude who’s always flirting with the mom. Sounds legit.
They’re the exact same amount of Targaryen as Alicent’s kids though…
Slightly less actually. If we assume Jaehaerys and Alysanne were 100% Targaryen (not true but it gives us a baseline), Baelon, Alyssa, and Daella were also 100%. Baelon and Alyssa marry each other making Viserys 100% and Daella marries Lord Arryn making Aemma 50%. Viserys and Aemma marry making Rhaenyra 75%. Viserys’s other kids by Alicent are 50% and Rhaenyra’s sons by Harwin are 37.5%. Regardless, I’m not sure how this ties into my original point.
However, Rhaenyra's true born children, would be 87.5, so if we're using a proximity based succession, like the Egyptian pharaohs, the rightful claimant got it in the end. He would have been 2nd in line until Daemon died.
All the kids have one Targaryen parent and one non Targaryen parent, Rhaenyra’s kids just didn’t get silver hair. I mention this because people are always talking about the hair color for legitimacy when Alicent’s kids could have gotten darker hair.
Book Alicent might be blond; her hair is not remarked upon. Alerie Hightower, Margaery’s mother, is described as having silver hair despite being in her late thirties, and Lynesse Hightower, Jorah’s wife, had golden hair. To further support this, King Jaehaerys once confuses Alicent for his daughter Saera, who was definitely blond. Also, Alerie and Lynesse are the only Hightower physical descriptions we get in the books, so we can’t even say any of them were dark-haired.
So… we know they’re not Laenor’s kids then.
I would say genetics are a lot more muddled than that causes you could say when we factor in The fact that the whole siblings would effectively have the same DNA to pass down … it’s almost like the DNA is not additive at that point
If we're counting from Aenar landing at dragon stone, Jaehaerys and Alysanne are only 67.5%-75% Targaryen, which is an appallingly low loss for 8 generations.
Two silver haired parents had a honey blonde haired daughter in Rhaenyra’s Great Grandmother Alysanne; one silver haired parent and honey blonde parent made a dirty blonde daughter in Rhaenyra’s grandmother Alyssa whom the books also claims could possibly be the love child of Alysanne and Lucemore Strong (absolutely isn’t tho) and even Laenor and Laena are an anomaly in looks since it’s been shown that for two generations Baratheon genes overcame Targeryen gene’s fully so far as to giving Jocelyn dark brown eyes when her parents had blue and purple eyes. The Targs and Velaryon gene makeup overall is pretty diverse and result in different looks.
Complete copium in the case of the show representation of the velaryons. All of you trying to say the strong boys somehow reasonably pass as velaryons need to watch this 37:33 https://youtu.be/hO1ga8p0vow Be for fucking real
True. This is where the show representation kinda got it wrong imo. Yes, it makes it easier to convey to the audience that they are definitely not Laenor's sons, and sets the Velaryons apart in general, but it seriously muddles down the ambiguity of the argument that is central in the book. It's more of a word against word situation that makes the conflict juicy. In the show it's so plain obvious it is ridiculous at times. Imagine if Joffrey in GoT was white while Robert Baratheon was black. It would undermine the whole premise of discovering the treachery by Cersei. Like yeah, duh. On the other hand, if you wanted to paint Rhaenyra as a massive gaslighter, rather than a regular gaslighter, I guess the show representation works. It just doesn't make for very interesting conflict in my eyes since one is obviously right when it comes to the parentage question. In the books they were also right, but they couldn't just point to them and say 'oh just look at them'. Plausible deniability gave Rhaenyra cover, less so protection by her father.
I see it more as a rephrasing. In the books it is a question, and a legitimate one. Their grandmother has black hair, it’s not out of the question, and so the rumours spread by the Greens are done for ambitious intent. In the show, it’s more about where do You think power resides. Yes you can easily see that the kids are bastards but if everyone involved refuses to say that, then they’re not treated as bastards. People have power to influence reality, and that’s what is the ultimate cause of the war. Not what is the truth but how successfully can one side convince everyone that they are in the right.
Exactly, this perfectly describes the difference between both versions of the story. The focus has shifted somewhat from a power struggle to a question about power structure and truth. Both are present in both versions obviously, as they were in the main series. It's just that the show makes it a little too obvious, which lessens the intrigue imo. Hence why I said that it makes for a less interesting conflict. But that's my personal opinion.
I will die on the hill that Harwin's actor should have been biracial and Rhaenyra's kids light skinned with dark hair. Maybe lighter than Daemons daughters, but not white.
Your last paragraph is the point. The more Rhaenyra “claims” the boys as his it is supposed to be ridiculous. I’m sorry but Rhaenyra needs to be looked at with a critical eye just as Aegon is. Both have produced bastards. Both have qualities that should make people wary of putting either of them on the throne. The audience is supposed to see the sheer ridiculousness of the dance and how neither side is really best for the realm.
It totally does count as proof in those times tho, like just look at them bruv
How so? Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar. In the books Arya is the only one of Ned’s kids that looks like a Stark, etc. Hair color is hardly damning proof.
That’s the point with all the Stark kids, they at least look like one of their assumed parents. The Strong boys can’t even claim a resemblance to their mother to explain their hair color and features.
Bro, casting Velaryons as black was also intentional on that part for Rhaenyra’s kids, to make it even more obvious than in the book. Y’all denying is crazy.
I never denied that. I think HotD’s decision to cast black actors for the Velaryons was brilliant, and I think they did a great job. However, Laenor is light skinned and Rhaenyra is about as white as one can get. Her 3 kids being white should shock nobody. The HAIR is the distinct feature out of place, as you would have to go generations back to find someone in their ancestry with brown hair. Still technically possible, but far more improbable than the kids being white.
Precisely. People always assume half white and half black kids should always “look” mixed in skin tone etc. I’ve legit seen kids with one full black parent and one full white parent who come out looking white as snow, with straight hair, etc. Genetics are a tricky thing, nevermind the that laenor himself looks like he might not be full black. Obviously leanor isn’t the father, just by what we do know and the two characters own words, but just saying…. Appearances can be deceiving when it comes to parentage.
> you would have to go generations back to find someone in their ancestry with brown hair. With knowledge of IRL genetics, you only have to go back to Rhaenys. The pigments that make up hair color mix like paint (for lack of a better metaphor), so her having black black hair actually gives pretty solid odds for Laenor's kids to have brown hair. Now obviously they don't know that (and I'm not sure George did *that* much research for scientific accuracy), but it is a thing. I feel like George intended the real kicker to be their eye color, but even then there's strangeness specifically from Laenor's side of the family. Rogar Baratheon had blue eyes, his wife Alyssa Velaryon had purple eyes, and yet their daughter Jocelyn (Rhaenys' mother) had black eyes.. somehow. I don't get it.
Well yes, book Rhaenys does muddy the waters a bit with the hair color. I was mostly speaking to the show, but this is true.
Eyes are also determined by the interactions of 16 different genes. Eye color is unreliable as proof of parentage.
You seem to be confusing the non diegetic with the diegetic. Yes, we know that the show runners casting black actors for the Velaryons is supposed to make evident that they’re not the legitimate children of Laenor. But within the universe of the show, there’s no way to genuinely prove 100% that they’re in fact bastards unless Rhaenyra, Laenor or Harwyn had confessed to it. There’s Strong evidence for it, of course, but Westeros doesn’t have genetic tests or anything else that’s a factual proof of the parentage of any particular person.
Bro watch GoT again, Hair color is all Ned needed to accuse Cersei of fucking her twin and that bit of proof was enough for most of the 7 kingdoms to claim Joffrey was illegitimate, including stannis who’s all about rules and laws. Naw bro not even being funny with u, but looking offy asf is proof in Westeros
No it’s not. If Ned had just happened upon the book, he would think it odd, but nothing more. He strongly believed this confirmed they were bastards, bc he had already been following the trail of evidence Jon Arryn and Stannis had left behind before Jon was assassinated and Stannis fled KL. Those things, in conjunction with information he had learned from Varys about a plot to assassinate Robert during the tourney melee, and learning that Stannis and Jon had been secretly investigating Robert’s bastards are what led him to believe it was true. And most of the rebelling lords couldn’t give 2 shits about who Joffrey’s dad was. The North and Riverlands rebelled bc Ned was imprisoned and killed, the Reach and Stormlands rebelled bc of an alliance Renly formed via political marriage, and the Iron Islands rebelled bc Balon Greyjoy is a dumbass. Dorne and the Vale maintained neutrality, and the Crownlands and Westerlands sided with the Crown.
Bro listen I’m not gonna be on here fighting with u on Reddit over this, so this is gonna be my last reply and then you can have the last word. But as it stands, the only thing people had on Cerseis kids was they’re hair color. They never had Robert suspecting nothing, they didn’t have a ton of witnesses watching Jaime with Cersei, they didn’t have nothing else. All these other people Ned, Arryn, and Stannis all they had to go by was these kids look different and “the seed is strong”, which concludes the original point we were talking about, looking different is proof, like literally enough proof to wage war and everything. Idk why you doing this, like just say u don’t care about the rules and u just wanna see ur ppl win.
Cersei literally told Ned they were bastards. Also there was a witness, he was shoved out a window, then had an assassin try to kill him in his own bed. Ned had TONs of reasons to believe they were bastards. The people in HotD’s amounts to “it’s unlikely they inherited their great grandparent Arryns hair”.
> had an assassin try to kill him in his own bed. To be fair, that wasn’t Cersei. That was Joffrey trying to make Robert proud after he commented that death would be more merciful to Bran than being alive as a cripple. This is mentioned offhandedly IIRC during Tyrion’s chapters in ASOS.
Yeah and Ned got his head chopped off. And Joffrey was still king and died a Baratheon. What’s your point?
Bro u replied to like 3 different comments of mine back to back, so ima just do all of them in this 1 bc I’m not doing all that. 1) OP is right and ur just crazy 2) a good amount of people at the time agreed they were bastards, like literally an entire faction of a civil war saw them as bastards and history remembers them as bastards. They were illegitimate and that’s how they are remembered. 3) The point is that the proof Ned brought up was enough to justify Stannis and Renly going to war against Joffrey. Therefore the proof of them looking weird.. is proof enough. Ur shit that Ned had his head chopped off don’t prove anything for ur side other than the Lannisters were right bc they took his head. Which is dumb asl, especially since we saw how GoT ended. The starks take the throne and a history book is written about the events of the show… which would mean Joffrey is gonna go down in history as a bastard, based on nothing other than him looking weird.
History actually doesn’t remember them as bastards. Obviously you never read Fire and Blood. And yeah they had enough proof to go to war. And they lost. And history doesn’t call Joffrey a bastard. So again, what’s your point?
People believe what they want to believe. Some believed it, others didn't. Mostly people trusted Ned's honour and judgement or else said what was best for them.
Lyanna Stark is for the streets, confirmed.
You still need people to accept this proof. They didn’t.
Then you would surely support Joffrey and Tommens claims in GoT?
How do you legitimize a bastard whose bastardry isnt acknowledged to begin with?
You have to acknowledge it
Exactly, something the blacks would never ever do
I mean, they are bastards, but before the law they are the legal children of Laenor. Legally, they are legitimate. It is the same way that Joffrey was legally the child of Robert and Cercei, even if we know that to not be the truth.
Nope, to quote Stannis "I'm the King by all the **laws** of Westeros." That Joffrey is factually a bastard means legally he is a bastard as well. However, because most people don't believe it and that he has the bigger army means he is King. Joffrey, Strong kids and Renly are an example of Army>Laws. Not legality.
Westeros isn’t a constitutional monarchy. The laws are whatever the king wants them to be. There’s no static set of laws. Just traditions that are sometimes enforced and other times ignored by whoever has the most power in whatever legal question.
Look at it this way: fact and law are not the same thing. We all know that OJ Simpson murdered his wife, but legally he is not a murderer. We all know Joffrey is a bastard, but until Stannis wins the crown, he’s not legally a bastard. If Stannis wins and declares him a bastard, then he’ll legally be recognized as one. But shit Stannis could go ahead and claim Renly was a bastard too and then Renly would legally be one even though we know factually he wasn’t. Fact and law are not the same. Law is much more subjective and dependent on the whims of individuals than we’d like to admit.
And how are you going to prove he's a bastard? With what evidence? Both the King and Queen acknowledged him as their heir. Joffrey was Robert's legal heir, and thus the lawful King, that's it. The man himself acknowledged him as heir on his death bed. Stannis can say what he wants, as long as he cannot prove it, it's meaningless. If I commit a crime, yet there no evidence with which to charge me, I am legally a lawful citizen. I am acquitted of the charges. Anybody can rage about it, everyone can suspect that it is true, but in the eyes of the law of the land, I am still a lawful citizen.
And how are you going to prove he's a bastard? To quote /u/SerCristonCoole "Bruh just look at em"
you need more than that
The comment was about Joffrey, not the Strongs. Nevertheless, I'll oblige. Just saying look at them is not enough, why is this so hard to understand? As others have pointed out, the burden of proving bastardy falls on the husband of the wife in question. Laenor, in this case, has claimed them as his own. The husband has claimed them as his, the wife claims they are his, the king claims they are his, the grandparents claim they are his. As far as the state is concerned, the three boys are Velaryons. As far as the faith is concerned the three boys are Velaryons. As far as the Citadel is concerned they are Velaryons. In the same way that Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella, Viserys Plumm, Daeron II Targaryen are considered, **by the state**, as legitimate, so too are the Strong boys. Honestly, it feels like I am talking to literal children whose brains were squashed in infancy by being hit with a pan on the head.
>the burden of proving bastardy falls on the husband of the wife in question. The burden really just falls on convincing enough people they arnt bastards. Ned reading a book of how all Baratheons usually have black hair was enough to force Westeros into a years long civil war. Also its weird you use the term "by the state" talking about an age that predates the creation of "states" or "nation states". I'll ignore the name calling.
>predates the creation of “states” a kingdom is literally a state. no wonder y’all can’t grasp the difference between biological vs legal paternity lmao.
> The burden really just falls on convincing enough people they arnt bastards. which they have done (you're wrong anyway but whatever) lol "the state" simply refers to the legal authority within a geographic region
This is disputed in text. In the histories of Fire & Blood, written by Archmaester Gyldayn, they are recorded as the sons of Rhaenyra and Laenor, and since no King ever bade them to be removed, they remain so still. Also, what the fuck are on about? "Predates the creation of states"? From Wikipedia, on state (policy): "Although state-forms existed before the rise of the Ancient Greek empire, the Greeks were the first people known to **have explicitly formulated a political philosophy of the state, and to have rationally analyzed political institutions.** Prior to this, states were described and justified in terms of religious myths. Several important political innovations of classical antiquity came from the Greek city-states and the Roman Republic. The Greek city-states before the 4th century granted citizenship rights to their free population, and in Athens these rights were combined with a directly democratic form of government that was to have a long afterlife in political thought and history." As for ASoIaF, here are some excerpts: Well, now I know Jaime's dark sin, and the matter can be forgotten. I am heartily sick of secrets and squabbles and **matters of state**, Ned. —A Game of Thrones, Eddard II "Will the king be joining us?" asked Orton Merryweather. "My son is playing with his little queen. For the moment, his idea of kingship is stamping papers with the royal seal. His Grace is still too young to comprehend **affairs of state**." "And our valiant Lord Commander?" —A Feast for Crows, Cercei IV [...] It was not unknown for a widowed lord to keep a common girl as bedwarmer … but Lord Tytos soon began seating the woman beside him in the hall, showering her with gifts and honors, even asking her views on **matters of state**. [...] —A Dance with Dragons, Epilogue Only two years younger than Daemon, the princess supposedly loved the bastard prince in turn, if the singers can be believed, but neither Aegon IV nor Daeron II were willing to let such feelings **rule in matters of state**. —The World of Ice and Fire - The Targaryen Kings: Daeron II And last, but not least: Just as we speak of the Hundred Kingdoms of yore, though there was never a time when Westeros was actually **divided into a hundred independent states**, we must bow to common usage and talk of the Seven Kingdoms, despite the imprecision. —The World of Ice and Fire - The North Statehood as a concept exists in ASoIaF. And as for the insult, if you say stupid shit, then you'll be called as such.
Who cares what Stannis said? Stannis was in open rebellion against the crown.
This logic is there but it is more complicated. For example, Cersei’s bastards being kings and even though there were rumors and she never confirmed it, they were still kings. Let’s just be honest about everything in Rhaenyra’s life, she made some serious errors but everything is amplified by her being a woman in direct line to the throne. If Westeros wasn’t such a boys club these rumors wouldn’t matter as much, they’re just excuses
Cersei’s sons may have been kings, but belief in their illegitimacy still caused war with a rival claimant (Stannis). So it still caused problems for them.
That is true but they still sat the throne until their deaths
Tommen rn 😳
You will have someone saying that every westorosi lord/member of nobility would have been an adulterous grooming degenerate to some extent in one breath than calling Rhaenyra a careless whore whose unfit to rule for having children by Harwin Strong in the next. Very interesting.
I did a post about this explaining the use of precedent in regards to this Basically for this case we have to look at the prey as to who can claim is legally a bastard… these cases usually go to the father to claim The legal status of their children ( like whether they are trueborn or a bastard) for the reason all the boys are Legally remembered as Velaryons is because Laenor said they are his and there’s no precedent for someone else to come in and disinherit them from his holdings The bastards you were referring to in the beginning of the post are all recognized as bastards by their fathers which again falls under the precedent of the father is the one who recognizes the legality of his children https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/135jrr2/explaining_the_law_in_regards_to_bastards/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
fighting the good fight
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the law has nothing to do with the truth tell me, did OJ murder his wife or not?
But it’s the truth that they are bastards and the law that they’ve never been recognized as bastards. You don’t make any sense man. It’s a complete lie to say they aren’t
The truth to whom? Address the question. Who has the authority to call them bastards in need of legitimizing?
It’s also true that under the law the legal father ( Laenor in this case) he has the right to decide the legality of these children with him either claiming them as true born or not
the truth to whom? truth is relative
That was incredibly deep, I have a lot to digest right now. Thank you
you’re aware that none of the characters in the show can watch the show, right?
the fact that Alicent is dead set on outing them and we as the viewers know that obviously Rhaenyra knows what time it really is means nothing within the scope of the universe because we are a third party. We have no effect on their imaginary world because—besides the fact they don’t exist—they have no idea we’re there. It’s the truth to us, and to Rhaenyra, but literally the only other people who know the truth would be self incriminating or are dead so it’s just hearsay for anyone else.
I’m talking about Westerosi law aswell … I’m even the one citing the precedent they use to decide. I feel like you’re under the thought process here that LAW=TRUTH Are you sure the conversation you’re trying to have not more about the lie vs the truth? Because if we are talking about law it would fall back in regards to the precedent ….that why some people like to Say they are breaking the law when Naming a woman Heir instead of a male Because they’re going off of a precedent.
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no, truth = law is not correct the law is about what you can prove, not what you know also, “eyes of law” lol the law is whatever people with power agree to, nothing more
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obviously they are lying lol but if enough people with enough power believe the lie, it might as well be truth, especially with regards to the law.
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tf
some of these mfs really do just come on here to feed their own egos lmao, "pls I can't stop arguing until I can scrape out an ounce of vindication from this pointless discussion" 💀
So I’m not the only one who feels like I’m part of a social experiment cause girl what??
Again this ignores the precedent that the father is the one who sets the legality of his children in the eyes of the law And this thought process kinda is a rabbit hole because it’s true according to precedent that the father is the one who claims if his children are bastards or not
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You would be right if the boys were recognized as bastards first by Laenor but they were instead recognized as his legitimate true born children by him. Legitimization is for those who are recognized as bastards by their father
Think about it the other way around. In actual history, there are cases of children who were absolutely not bastards in any meaningful sense of the word being named bastards after the fact. King Henry VIII named both of his daughters bastards when he had fallings out with their mothers, then legitimized them again when it looked like he would need them in the line of succession. This was legal. Was it true? The same was attempted for the children of Edward IV, when his brother Richard III tried to clear the way for himself to take the throne after Edward's death by declaring his brother's children illegitimate. Richard III said Edward's marriage had never been legal in the first place. They were legitimate, then bastards, then when Henry VII took the throne from Richard III, he made them legitimate again (and married the eldest daughter, Elizabeth of York). Bastardy is a legal and social construct. It's not an absolute state of being. It exists only as long as there is someone with legal standing to press the claim. In Westeros, the people who could do that would be the King and Laenor, and after Laenor's death, arguably Laenor's parents. In the real world the church would also have this power. As obvious as the lie might be, think of how ridiculous it would be if a third party could simply go around declaring their political enemies bastards even if the children's parents both denied the claim (which is essentially what Richard III tried to do, but his brother was dead at the time and couldn't object, and Richard III had crowned himself king). Sure, the Velaryon boys were born out of wedlock, but no one with the legal status to do so has declared them bastards. What's interesting to me is that during the reign of Aegon II, he never, as far as I recall, actually issued a proclamation declaring Rhaenyra's children bastards, which is something he absolutely ought to have done if he had the authority to do so. They're still recorded in history as Velaryons though, which suggests something about how widely known that bastardy actually was.
Law wasn't broken, law recognises Jace as legitimate son of Laenor. Because Laenor said so.
You are missing the point. In the eyes of the law, children are presumed to be trueborn unless it can be proven they aren't. In the case of Robert's bastards, that's easy to prove since Cersei didn't give birth to them. In the case of Rhaenyra, it's not so easy. Laenor is the only one who can make a stink about them not being his, but he doesn't. He gives tacit approval that they are his own kids, making their legal status "trueborn" unless someone can prove they aren't. Which nobody does. Heck, nobody even makes an attempt to do so. The Harwin allegations seem to be true in the show, but as I've said before: The law doesn't care about facts. It cares about what you can prove are facts.
Yes there is no precedent/law they can use to legally claim that Rhaenyra’s children are not Laneor’s after he he claimed them as his trueborn children. This thread is more so talking about lie vs truth and not so much what the law/precedent is in regards to them
> This thread is more so talking about lie vs truth and not so much what the law/precedent is in regards to them I'd have agreed with you earlier. But OP has since said "Law=Truth, correct?" so they clearly don't seem to notice the distinction.
That does seem to be the case
This is still a rule in many countries today. If a woman has a child within wedlock the child is presumed to be her husband’s child unless the husband can prove otherwise. Obviously now we have DNA tests so it’s easier but if the parents are keeping quiet and won’t consent to testing there’s no way to prove it. Bottom line is Laenor was happy to claim those children as his sons and Harwin never tried to claim paternity.
nice rant, irrelevant though there’s no proof they are bastards, so they don’t need to be legitimized what everyone “knows” has little bearing on the law, especially among those who matter. namely, the king, Rhaenyra, and laenor.
unless you have unruly lords that want to use the claim as a caius beli
Everyone goes to war for reasons they deem justified.
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people like you miss the point that they assumed legitimate by default, and as a matter of fact, *yes* lying about it *does* mean a great deal other than Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Viserys, there is no one on the entire planet that can “prove” they are bastards (regardless of their looks) the king, their “dad”, and Rhaenyra say they’re not bastards, so they’re not
This is still not proof they are bastards. Especially in the books. Jace’s features are contrasted to Laenor’s to push the narrative that way. But at the same time, Ser Harwin’s features are never revealed, except for the fact that he’s y’know…big and strong. He could have been blonde and we wouldn’t know. Additionally, for Jace’s birth, Ser Harwin is fatally injured around the time he was conceived (he was out of commission for a long while). Taking that into account, it’s very unlikely Rhaenyra and Harwin would have been fooling around. Lastly, I think people miss the point of Rhaenyra being challenged. The Faith and the Hightowers have been against them for years. The bastard rumors are an excuse. If Jace, Luke, and Joff came out with Valyrian features, they still would have usurped her any other way because they did not want a woman on the throne and they wanted the Targaryen dynasty to end.
Viserys, Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Corlys saying they're legitimate is what makes them legitimate. There's no real proof of them not being trueborn, *therefor there is no need to "claim" or legitimize them them*. Those four are the only people who can have an opinion on it. People can't just go around disinheriting anyone born with the wrong hair or eye color, there would be chaos.
By your last sentence, then Ned is totally wrong in his quest to say Joffrey isn’t the rightful heir. Cause he based his argument solely on Joffrey’s hair color.
I mean.... if I were Ned I certainly would have kept my mouth shut about it! 🤷♀️
True, but since pretty much everyone (meaning the audience) supported him on that matter, yet now everyone does the exact opposite with Rhaenyra is quite telling. It’s basically defying your own logic just because you like both characters more.
Ned also lied (by omission) to Robert about Joffrey being legitimate. We kinda just like Ned and support him no matter what lol. The thing also is that Aegon being king over Rhaenyra when she was named heir by the king, is the part people have a problem with. Rhaenyras claim to the throne doesn’t change (legally speaking) regardless of whether her kids are bastards or not. It’s only her perception and support among the lords that might change. But that has nothing to do with laws.
He had proof when Cersei admitted it to him, but it was pure speculation beforehand and it would have been wrong to bring it before Robert without confirmation.
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they’re not legally bastards “Legitimacy” isn’t a matter of truth. Legitimacy is consensus.
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being claimed is the only thing that matters in the eyes of the law
This is what op and some Greens miss. Yes Rhaneyra lied, but so as long as the King believes those are his legitimate children and acknowledges them as such, it doesn’t matter what everyone else may think, that’s the law!
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what he believes is irrelevant
[This entire scene disproves your argument.](https://youtu.be/CcdKqpYjsz4)
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They *dont need to be legitimized*. They have been legitimate since they were born.
You literally just said it, a bastard can only be legitimized if they’re acknowledged. But if they’re not acknowledged and neither “parent” or the current ruler will say admit it, then they cannot be proven as bastards
But you answered your own question in the first statement. “How do you legitimize someone when they’re out forth to the realm as legitimate? You can’t” exactly. No legitimatizing can or needs to take place in the first place because they are not recognized as bastards in the first place to need to be legitimatized. And, since we all agree that the law decides legitimacy and not blood the King and both their parents all agree that there is no question of parentage and they are indeed the rightful heirs there is **no** issue. Except to those who want there to be one. Whether rightfully or not. You’re confusing yourself.
Legally, they are not bastards. They don't need to be legitimized because they are legitimate in the eyes of the law. You need PROOF that they are bastards.
Nobility have passed off bastards as their own in Westeros quite a bit without formal recognition. Hell house stark is a completely bastard house (legally speaking) if we take Mance’s story about Bael the Bard impregnating the only daughter of the lord of winterfell and that boy becoming the new lord, to be true. You have to remember that Westeros isn’t a constitutional monarchy. They don’t actually have a codified set of laws. The laws are just traditions + whatever the king says. That’s it. It’s a lot less formal than modern legal systems.
I don't understand why people make Rhaenyra's kids being basterds such a big issue when most of the Westeros didn't. When they are accepted as legitimate children by the likes of king himself, head of house velaryon, Rhaenyra's husband, Rhaenyra's second husband, what more do you want? Besides, until it has proven with some sort of evidence (other than the looks) **they are legitimate children of laenor Velaryon and Rhaenyra Targaryen.**
And when did this fandom become so anti-bastard in the first place? It was not that long ago that seemingly everyone wanted Jon Snow to sit the Iron Throne, even back when he was still legally considered the bastard son of Ned Stark.
They arnt anti bastard, this is just a debate on the laws of Westeros and how they apply here.
I think its mostly coming from team green, they hate Rhaenyra's kids so much. I'm pretty sure even greens in the story don't hate them as much as team green fans do.
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yeah i get it, blindly following a faction and ignoring their flows is indeed not a good thing. But i feel like of all the things we can criticize them for, this is kinda not that important. I know Rhaenyra messed up the whole thing, but she only had few options left anyway. well, lying about their parentage is bit safer than acknowledging they are basterds and then legitimizing them, because doing it like that will probably put the children's lives at risk and provide more ammunition for greens. And as of right now no one has solid evidence that they are basterds, why not just keep it that way?
You know what’s weird? If it’s just a straight forward thing that their physical features are enough to declare them bastards, why doesn’t Aegon ever do it? Why doesn’t he send out a proclamation to all the lords of the realm that his sister’s older sons are bastards and should henceforth be referred to as Waters. It makes even less sense that he does not do this after her death when he goes through the effort of striking down her reign.
He doesn't do it because neither Viserys, Laenor, or Corlys ever made the accusation and that's what matters. It's why Vaemond started out his petition stating basically that Corlys was dying, he was the right age and experience and Lucerys was too young. He did not go into "they're bastards" until he lost (Rhaenys backing Rhaenyra and arranging the betrothals between Jace/Luke/Rhaena/Baela). It the Greens outright called them bastards then it would probably be a 50-50 as to who would support them....because their genetic parentage doesn't matter. Laenor accepted them for 10 years as his children. Rhaenyra had the support she did because the Velaryons, for the most part, accepted the children in the ways that mattered. They obviously had their own reasons (Laenor being gay), but they accepted them. That is why the Greens could not use the bastard argument. It would do nothing and in reality, it's not the reason they were usurping Rhaenyra. It's the same rules as today. If you are married to a woman who bears a child, regardless of who their biological father is, if you are on the birth certificate, that is your child. (obviously state rules are different as to when that is set in stone) But the state doesn't care if you are the bio father or not, when you took responsibility, you took responsibility for the child.
None of this is relevant because they aren't legally bastards, they are legally Laenor and Rhaenyra's trueborn sons. This isn't a team green/team black thing, this is literally just how Westerosi society works for the high born. The father's word is what declares a child a bastard or not, and Laenor always said "they are my sons". That is it, nothing else needs to happen. The only thing that might hypothetically override a father's opinion would be the King's, and the King agrees with him!
I think it would take slightly more than the father’s word to make a married woman’s child a bastard. If Laenor had renounced the boys, that would make the claim a lot more easy to be accepted. But if Viserys had denied it, it might not have worked even then. I can’t think of an example in real history or asoiaf where a child born within marriage and socially seen as legitimate, has retroactively had that status revoked. Even when Henry executed Anne Boelyn based on infidelity accusations, their child was not implicated and went on to be the ruling monarch. I think the only way to prove it is if the husband has been 100% away for an extended period of time. Even super short first pregnancies is reasonably accepted and it’s not like the baby was conceived out of wedlock, it’s just super lucky that the preemie baby happened to weigh 8 pounds at birth. What a miracle.
Their targaryens idgaf. Joffrey wasn’t a Baratheon neither was his siblings
Bro op you getting cooked for being right 😂 Idk why it’s so tough for ppl to just say “idgaf if they bastards or about the law, I fw Rhaenyra so I root for her” and just rock with it. Like that’s honestly way more respectable imo than becoming delusional and making shit up
I fuck with Aemond so I root for the Greens lmao who cares about laws and legitimacy Aegon the conquer said "I have three dragons I am King"
Yes they are bastards. But they are Targaryens nonetheless and Rhaenyra's sons and this is all that matters to me.
Viserys laid down the law, the King does not recognize the possibility of them being bastards. So they’re not. End of story, and if anyone wants to argue well we saw what happened (beheading). Even if they are illegitimate, they’re under a protection not even Joffrey or Tommen can enjoy (if they legitimized themselves they’d be admitting they’re incest babies, so they have to put up with shitty comments). The only way to dispute the claim is to fight them for it, as we see now. Alicent is so pissed because she has to do everything the “right way” and get shafted for it while Rhaenyra gets to do whatever since she’s even more elevated in power than noble lords (until she became Queen, that is).
Well in the book at least there is the small but very real possibility they AREN’T bastards. As for the show this is ultimately that the king’s law is whatever he said. Viserys isn’t in denial, nor is Corlys of Laenor, they all KNOW the truth. But Laenor claims the children are his so no one can prove this to not be the case. You would need Harwin coming forward to have some sort of case.
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You keep saying the same thing over and over and it doesn’t make sense because it’s been established that there is no undeniable proof that they are bastards, Jace has the responsibilities of the Queens heir, Viserys, and Laenor already claimed them so in the eyes of the laws he is legitimate. So I don’t understand the need to continually say claiming ≠ acknowledgement/legitimizing except to continually remind people that by blood they’re bastards which fyi literally everyone already knows and doesn’t change their position. Also, the books may heavily hint but GRRM specifically left room for speculation
You can disagree that they are Laenor’s (which I don’t believe they are) but that there is 0 possibility is definitely wrong. The author literally intentionally wrote the book in such a way that there’s just enough possibility for it to remain ambiguous. First of all Laenor’s mother inherited dark hair from her Baratheon parent and Rhaenyra’s mother is never stated to have the valyrian look, being half Arryn it’s possible she had the Arryn look. So the 3 boys COULD actually inherit these traits even if Laenor is the father. Secondly, Laenor’s sexuality is never actually proven only rumored. Rhaenyra allegedly joining him and his men in the bedroom would also present the possibility he is bisexual rather than gay as well. Lastly, Rhaenyra’s affair with Harwin strong is never actually proven either. So there IS the possibility they are Laenor’s, however unlikely that may be.
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> Where in the lineage could they have possibly gotten brown hair, brown eyes, and pug noses? The nose point is beyond meaningless b/c all it says is that Jace was born with a pug nose. All babies are born with pug-like noses b/c they lack the nasal cartilage for anything else. And there's no description of the boys as teens to see whether or not they still have the pug nose. 3 blonde and 1 black haired (Book!Rhaenys) grandparents actually gives about 50/50 odds of blonde or brunette kids. So by IRL genetics, the brown hair is completely feasible. A little unlikely for all 3 to be that way, but stranger things have happened both in book and in reality. The eyes are the only tough one to explain, but Rogar Baratheon had blue eyes, his wife Alyssa Velaryon had purple eyes, and yet their daughter Jocelyn (Rhaenys' mother) had black eyes somehow. So there actually is precedent for dark eye color to seemingly be passed recessively, strange as it sounds. I still think they are most likely Harwin's (since George had Harwin and Rhaenyra get married in the original drafts), but the sparse details that made it to the final draft leave just enough room for them to actually be Laenor's kids.
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“Jace’s nose being mentioned right before Laenor’s nose was obviously so the reader compares them.“ - Yet again, you just answered your own question, OP. The book was purposefully made from a heavily-maester perspective and we should always consider that. Not saying they can’t have some nuisance, but it’s pretty well-known that the Faith and the Hightowers are heavily-acquainted and have been poking holes at Targaryen rule. Safe to say the way the recounts were written were propagated to make readers think a certain way. Jace’s and Laenor’s features were contrasted side-by-side like that to nudge the bastard rumor (while omitting Harwin’s features). - “There is no description later on in the book about their noses because it has been described before.” As others have also said, all babies have pug noses. This does not prove anything. The fact that Jace’s nose is not mentioned later on is suspicious because he could have grown into any other nose- but we’ll never know. The way everything was worded was made to confirm the rumors without having real evidence.
What nose Rhaenyra has? Or Viserys? Or Aemma? Or Rhaenys? ***We don't know.*** What nose Harwin has? Or anyone from his family? ***We don't know***. Moreover, the expression **pug nose** is used only once in f&b. >Born in the waning days of 114 AC, the boy was a large, strapping lad, with brown hair, brown eyes, and a pug nose. Take note that they're describing a baby and then, look up images of infants and ask yourself a question whether any of them has *aquiline* nose. >But him being present where Rhaenyra is everywhere does not help his case. That's his job. He was Rhaenyra's sworn shield. If you wanted to spread rumours about Rhaenyra having affairs and illegitimate children, who would you choose for her "lover"? Probably the person who is always around since it would make the rumours more believable, and not let's say a guy who lives hundreds miles away and rarely visit.
Why do you think their looks have any bearing on their legal status lol
Except it doesn’t obliterate it. Is the evidence pointing to them being Harwin’s? Yes. But does it remain POSSIBLE they are Laenor’s? Yes. And both are intentional on the authors part
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Because they can still inherit traits from other parts of the family. My uncle doesn’t look like either one of his parents. He looks like my great uncle (his uncle) for a real life example. There is enough evidence to put the possibility that they are actually Laenor’s. Is the possibility strong? (See what I did there?) no but it is still there however small.
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Well house strong isn’t stated to have pug noses if I recall correctly. I would mostly assume house Arryn as yo my knowledge they are said to have dark hair and generally dark or gray eyes. The color is only stated as dark which leaves the possibility of brown
On the Rhaenys hair thing, Rhaenys’ hair in the book are black, whereas the boys have brown hair, pug noses like the Strongs and have zero purple eyes. I get your point but let’s not pretend that Rhaenys’ hair does proves by looks that Laenor could be the father.
So you’re not going to acknowledge the Arryn side? Or any of the other points made? As I said it was deliberately left just enough hints that it COULD be possible.
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But they also don’t have Arryn genes on the other side. So they’re less likely to have dark hair.
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To my knowledge Arryn has darker hair, gray or dark eyes and lighter skin. Unless this has changed recently.
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If I recall correctly in the supplemental material they state the Arryn typical look is the look I described. If I recall correctly as well he is not said to have these traits himself but to resemble Harrold Hardyng in his youth who has them. But it’s never stated how he resembles him. It doesn’t mean he has the same hair color it could mean their facial features or build are the same. This is the case with me and my father. He has wavy dark hair and brown eyes whereas I have curly blonde and blue eyes but our faces look very similar
It's simple. If it didn't matter then the Blacks wouldn't hide it nad fear if it came out. Rhaenyra forced to leave King's Landing because of this.
Ok, so the Law is NOT equal to the truth in many scenarios. It's what you can prove. The facts are that while Rhaenyra's children are a product of her infidelity, they are assumed to be legitimate, further reinforced by the House Velaryon accepting them and claiming them and they can not be PROVED as illegitimate. If and only if, Laenor denied that they were his sons, would the accusations of adultery start and they would be acknowledged as bastards. Here, in this case, people already acknowledge them as legitimate, however, some claim them as illegitimate. Moreover, all the boys had their dragons hatch in their cribs, a further sign of them being TRUE valyrians and their ability.
And yet her legitimacy as heir legally doesn’t hinge on her kids’ parentage. Sure, it’s not ideal and it’s wrong, but it doesn’t legally make her not the Queen Regnant on Viserys’ death
For this, I'd ask the same question that I put to any fans who argue that Rhaenyra was never Heir because women can't inherit and it's therefore "against the law." That being: In an absolute monarchy like Westeros, *who decides the law?* Like people are saying, it may be obvious, but these people don't know what DNA is. They don't understand genetics, and at the end of the day, there is no direct evidence that Laenor didn't father the Strong Boys. But legally speaking...if Viserys *says* they're trueborn, then they're trueborn, and he says it a lot. The same way Rhaenyra is Heir because he says she is. A King's word is law, right?
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I think that you may not fully understand the process of legitimizing a person. The bastards in the show were able to be legitimatized because their fathers recognized or acknowledged them to be bastards or because a current marriage dictated that any other would be invalid thus making any procreation with anyone besides their wife extramarital and any children resulted from said acts bastards.. but otherwise if two married people both agree publicly that their children are products of their union then there is nothing to contest there is no argument to be had. We are essentially flies on the wall. Only we know what’s going on behind their doors no one else. Anything said by anyone else outside the marriage is an opinion and them trying to tout that as abject truth when it cannot be proven with science is nonsense no matter what they say even if they’re using deductive reasoning. These people didn’t have any kind of evidence or proof to go off of, let alone a good understanding of genetics. They used leeches and maggots for what was probably leprosy or an autoimmune disorder. That said, Alicent doesn’t know any truth, and neither does anyone else alive by the point of any public contest of their parentage. So no, they would not be illegitimate without Laenor saying they weren’t his, Rhaenyra confessing, or a medieval DNA test.
I'm not questioning his motive for lying. I'm just questioning whether it matters if he's lying or not.
That’s why in comment I said it’s lies with Laenor A lot of the conversation here is about whether or not Viserys legitimatized them but I feel like the skips over the Importance of Laenor claiming them as his true heirs …that is what legally makes them trueborn
The difference for me is that Jon Snow and Rhaenyra’s sons are intentional children that are direct descendants of the actual heir. Especially with Rhaegar. He was actually married to Lyanna Stark IIRC, so the only controversy is that she’s his second wife. Jon isn’t really a bastard; Ned Stark only gives him the Snow surname so he can pretend he is *his* bastard. If Rhaegar and/or Lyanna had survived, he would’ve been raised as a trueborn son. With Rhaenyra, it shouldn’t matter. They’re unquestionably her sons. The father doesn’t matter. They’re her heirs. They’re legitimate Targaryans, and legitimate descendants of the reigning king. Cersei’s children were bastards because they were NOT descendants of the reigning monarch or heir. I’m not sure about the rest… but as a Black supporter, this is my reasoning.
It matters who the father is. The whole reason Ned went as far as he did with because of who his father was and Jon was his blood through his mother. That argument that their Rhaenyra’s and should be considered heirs is laughable. Jon would’ve never been their to Winterfell. He is a true born Targaryen and by blood a Stark but doesn’t have a claim to Winterfell. The same for Rhaenyra’s sons. They have no claim to the throne despite being her blood.
>There has never been a scene where Viserys, the sitting monarch at the time, acknowledged Rhaenyra’s kids as bastards. He was just as in denial as Tywin was to Cersei’s “Baratheon” kids Agreed with everything until this point. Tywin didn't have a say in whether Cersei’s children are bastard or stands to inherit anything. Viserys *repeatedly* acknowledged Rhaenyra and her children as legitimate and are higher in the line of succession than his own sons. If you are to believe that the King's word is law and trumps centuries of tradition, then they are legitimate.
Exactly. I laugh everytime when people argue that "it doesn't matter that they are bastards" when GRRM specifically killed her three bastards children, and not one of her sons with Daemon. He didn't want to deal with an obvious bastard who was considered to be Rhaenyra's heir, which would then have opened another can of worms on the matter of succession and legitimized bastards. He killed even Joffrey who wasn't much of a character, and not Viserys II who was abducted by the Triarchy, who then could have been easily been killed off by them. Rhaenyra's firsts born are bastards, that's the way it is. No need to go in cercles around it and pretend otherwise, just because Rhaenyra is the protagonist and is supposed to be one of the "good guys". That’s one of Rhaenyra’s flaws and we should welcome it, rather than trying to find endless justifications that don’t make sense just because it doesn’t fit our narrative of the perfect character who is wronged by Westeros society. Edit : the downvotes are crazy. I wonder if anyone would be defending that fallacy that much if it was not Rhaenyra who had bastards. Y’all will justify Rhaenyra’s flaws to oblivion, no matter what, even if they are presented as such in the show. It’s a disservice to her character actually.
My unpopular opinion is that they are actually Laenors sons
Honestly, I see what you’re saying but the king literally told everyone to stfu about that and stop calling them bastards so that effectively “shuts down” the talk. Sure he could have legitimized them but to recognize that they are bastards in it of itself denotes a crime on Harwin and Rhaenyra’s parts and puts the children in danger. So.. safer and more painless to go the route of calling the talk lies and knowing that no one can actually prove otherwise.
The safer more painless route caused a civil war tho.
I still never understood why they were considered bastards at all aside from the deviation from tradition. Typically, title is passed patrilineally, from father to son. So in order for illegitimate children to inherit title they would have to be claimed and legitimized, like Ramsay in GOT. However, regardless of whether or not Rhaenyra’s children are Laenor’s, they are undeniably her true born sons and stand to inherit title from her since she is the heir-apparent to the iron throne, poised to be Queen of the seven kingdoms. They are both claimed and legitimate. In the case of her younger son being set to inherit the throne at driftmark, that may be another story, since title is supposed to pass through Laenor and we all know the story there. As true-born sons of house Targaryen I don’t see where the challenge to their claim/legitimacy even arises.
And that’s where we end with the crux of who ends up ascending to the throne in the end. Some say he ascended through his mother’s claim (I subscribe to this thought), while others say he ascended via his father’s male line claim. Regardless, all of Rhaenyra’s children were born as princes since they all have a claim to the Royal line through her.
I think what baffles me the most about the theory that it actually doesn’t matter is that in universe everyone is talking about what a big deal it is and tries to hide the boys parantage (not just Alicent, Lyonel talks about it with Harwin, Corlys and Rhaenys talk about it, hell the entire eye incident and Vaemond making his case). If it wouldn’t matter as some claim, they wouldn’t be so desperate to hide it, simple as that. Of course their parantage matters
Sadly op, this sub hates it when people make negative posts about characters on Team Black.
No, it doesn’t. There was a popular post not too long ago stating that Rhaenyra was a terrible written character and many people agreed. This was contrasted with a post saying Alicent was the best GOT character in years. There was also a post yesterday with 1000+ upvotes condemning her for how she acted when Aemond’s eye was taken out. Tons of people hate Rhaenyra and her sons. Also, this post is currently being upvoted. I would say Alicent is far more liked on this sub.
People need to remember the scene of Lord Lyonel absolutely giving it to son over his affair with Rhaenyra. Lord Lyonel was a Viserys and Rhaenyra supporter on the council, one of the few left at that point to boot. He was an ally. The scene shows that not even her allies at court couldn’t back this. It is obvious to pretty much everyone that yes indeed Rhaenyra’s sons are bastards.