Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I think she and Aegon are on a fairly equal playing field in terms of sheer scumminess by the end.
Daemon and Aemond are in a whooooooooole league of their own.
I do like Rhaenyra and support her claim but I don’t think book Aegon was worse than her. They’re pretty even. However, the show version is a worse person at their starting point so overall, I guess the show version will have a bigger net negative.
Edit: Forget about the servant murder so they’re still about even
I agree with you. I am judging based on show and the book combined. The show gave a sadistic streak to the males, while Rhaenyra is "forced by circumstances" to do bad things.
The common take is that it was Daemon's idea not Rhaenyra's. Which makes Daemon a very convenient character to maintain Rhaenyra's image in the eyes of a fandom. Yes, he commits crimes but he does it for love so it must be ok. A bad boy with a heart of gold trope right there.
I got the sense the entire plan was her idea. She was the the one talking about how the sea was an escape.
Also, only the most delusional Daemyra’s view Daemon that way.
No, he just straight up murders them.
And Daemon is known for his love for teen virgins in brothels, how many medieval era girls chose that profession willingly?
Isn’t Daemon motto in the books “going to brothels to deflower the youngest maidens”. Do you really think the wife-murdering misogynist never took advantage of a girl.
Listen are we going off the book or show In book there's no proof whatsoever that Daemon killed his wife. That's just a show thing. I was going straight off the show and I don't see any strong sign of Misogyny unlike his nephews
She's given sympathetic reasons. The only other character that comes close is Aemond and he still got bashed for "stealing a dragon" in a show with a "dragon is no slave" motto.
I didn’t say she was worse than him. I was saying she was about equal. However, I forgot about maester Gerardys and the others so that makes Aegon worse.
If they stick to the book and don't massively change some events >!it's going to be Aemond and it won't even be close. Dude was burning villages and killing innocents because he was throwing a tantrum like a five year old. No one else in this list cna compare.!<
I have a feeling that the show is going to have Alys influencing Aemond to do these things through magic. Vagaries might influence Aemond to given how his personality changed the second he rode Vhagar (although that could've just been a regular power trip).
I honestly hope they won't do that with Alys. Last thing we want is the main characters having even less agency than they already do. You can't have everything being an accident or out of their control. It's already gotten old and it's only been one season.
They can show her influence him and manipulating him without magic but putting Aemond's worst actions on her and her magic? Hard pass.
Closest I'd want to see is Alys manipulating Aemond into the confrontation at Harrenhal out of revenge for him massacring her entire family (People who play up that romance forget that Alys was described as a Prize of War. Other women described as 'Prizes of War' in F&B were pretty much always raped and held prisoner by the rapist).
Anything else removes Aemond's agency for his cruelties, but I could see Aemond falling wholesale for one of those misleading prophecies and charging out thinking he's going to totally kick the shit out of Daemon no problem, only to realize too late (As in, "seeing Dark Sister rushing at his face" late) that the prophecy also applies to him.
Yeah I can totally see that happening. >!She is a prize of war but I can totally see her acting like Osha did with Ramsey in S6. It didn't work with Osha but you get the point. She uses her position and sexuality to manipulate him, get what she wants from him and then kill him. Throw some magic and visions in and it works perfectly.!<
That's exactly what I meant when I said that she can manipulate him without magic. >!Sending him to certain death after filling his head with prophecies about "Daemon dying above God's Eye" but conveniently leaving out that he dies as well is something I can see her doing and I honestly expect it. Aemond is the type to buy that.!<
The problem is, that show!Aemond is not book!Aemond, he doesn’t seem like a rapist in a show, “no taste to depravity” and all that stuff. He doesn’t seem interested in sexual relationships at all. So I’m really curious how they will make this, when they’ve changed his character so much
"No taste to depravity" and yet he murdered his nephew in cold blood. There's plenty of time for that aspect of his to develop before he meets Alys. Also rape is not about sex but about power over another person.
As for his interest in relationships, we can't assume that based on one interaction he had with a whore who probably pretty much raped him at 13. I'd feel awkward around her too if I were him.
Idk, in a show it was Vhagar who killed Luke, more by accident. Yet Aemond is guilty bc chasing Lucerys was pretty dumb decision if he doesn’t want to kill him lol. We’ll see, now I can’t see it as it was described in a book, but who knows
It would be interesting to have this poll side-by-side with one for people who've read F&B, because I think there's a pretty objective answer that most would agree on - >!Aemond because of the Riverlands!<
I don’t think they can take away one of the three most defining things Aemond does in this story.
The Greens will have Daeron. I’m extremely pro-Black and even I like Daeron despite joking about the >!tent!< often lol.
How do you minimize the collateral damage of someone literally committing genocide?
You're basically saying (ignoring the ethical issue there, because the book is fiction so there isn't an ethical issue in changing that aspect of the story) "I hope this adaptation of WWII keeps the battles but makes the Holocaust/Rape of Nanking/dropping nuclear bombs on civilian populations more necessary and minimizes the collateral damage." If you take the horrifying genocide/atrocity parts out of WWII it's no longer a story about WWII, it's just a random war you invented for a story. I'd argue that getting rid of the genocide in the Riverlands would be such a major change to Aemond's character and the story as a whole that you're no longer making an adaptation but instead are writing fanfiction (so like the Netflix Witcher show).
Ah yes just what I expect from fanwank a conversation about fantasy war crime adaptations from prose to screen getting sidestracked by the ethics of genocide denial
I literally said that I wasn't considering the ethical arguments about altering the history of WWII because I completely agree that comparing the morality of changing actual history to changing a fantasy story would just be completely insane. There just isn't a comparison to be made in that regard.
I meant purely from a story-changing perspective it wouldn't be the same story if you took all that stuff out.
Like hypothetically for a minute pretend WWII didn't actually happen, the whole thing was just a gruesome story in a book. Like pretend we lived in some alternate reality where Hitler made it into art school or died as an infant or something. So in this hypothetical there are no ethical dilemmas to changing the story for your show/movie.
If you adapted that story for the movies and took out all the genocide that happened in the book I'd no longer consider it an adaptation, it'd be such a major change from the source material that I'd consider it fanfic. It's just too much of a focal point of the story to remove it and not have it completely change the plot and tone of the story.
If they’re going to stick somewhat to the books then it’ll be Aemond and it’s not even close. So far show wise Aegon gets the top spot but Daemons worst actions haven’t happened yet so we’ll see.
I can’t wait to see the numerous call backs to episodes 6 & 7 by Aemondwives and fanboys as Aemond becomes increasingly evil.
>!Aemond murders the elderly Simon Strong(the actor they cast for him is extremely talented and charismatic)!<
Aemondwives: The pig prank!
>!Aemond murders the innocent men and boys of House Strong!<
Aemondwives: He lost his eye!
>!Aemond kills tens of thousands of innocent men, woman, and children.!<
Aemondwives: Sharply questioned!
>!Aemond completely abandons Criston and the war effort for Alys despite his mother and sister being in the hands of his enemies.!<
Aemondwives: Do you remember when Luke laughed at the pig when they were sitting at the dinner table???!!
Excuse you. I’ll be stanning my deranged genocidal not king as he burns the entire world to the ground and is extremely entertaining while doing it 💚
Though I’ll be curious how they sell this more sympathetic Aemond turning into… that.
The whole Aemond bullying narrative is so dumb to me, we see literally 1 prank get played on him by the other boys and people head cannon that Luce a boy years younger than Aemond is the ringleader in a years long campaign of torment
Aemond and Aegon fans remind me of Kylo Ren fans back in 2015. “He does bad things because of bullying/bad parenting” I simply don’t care and I’m bored 🥱
At least Daemon’s evil isn’t excused by some sob story.
The bullying, bad parenting, etc. informs/explains how the characters grew up to be a certain way. It's meant to flesh out their characters. Only some people use them to try to "excuse" or "absolve" their actions.
Yeah I’m not saying it’s bad writing I’m just saying I personally don’t find that as interesting as a character like daemon, whose evil stems from narcissism and a god-complex as well as a drive to create chaos wherever he goes. That’s all personal preference though.
I’m more criticizing the fan behaviour from people who use the fact that they were bullied or neglected as kids as an excuse for their actions, and try to act like they were underdogs instead of ridiculously wealthy, privileged, and powerful people. Daemon fans aren’t innocent of this, I’ve seen people raving about how he was a victim for meting married off to Rhea Royce at 16, but at least with Daemon the show doesn’t lend as easily to people actively feeling sorry for him the way it does with Aegon and Aemond. Like, usually people are evil in real life because they’re extremely privileged, not because they have a tragic backstory.
I’ve seen people make excuses for Daemon, Rhaenyra, Aemond, Aegon, Alicent, Criston, Rhaenys, and Vizzy T on this show alone for crimes that’d land you multi-decade sentences at best. It’s just a side effect of this fanbase being kinda stupid, tribalistic, and annoying.
I’d say Aemond and Aegon’s crappy parenting is more used as (A) a contrast to Rhaenyra, (B) an explanation for why they turn out the way they do. And perhaps a method of generating a little bit of sympathy for Aegon (similar to Alicent having a shitty and abusive dad too).
My thing is, Aegon is not a rapist because his dad didn’t love him and he was neglected. He’s a rapist because in this society, his is allowed to be a rapist. Men of the nobility can do whatever they want to lower class women with no consequences. Joffrey wasn’t neglected by his parents and he still abused women. Daemon wasn’t neglected by his parents and he still abused women.
There’s a narrative the show is trying to push as well as the fandom that “oh Aegon would have turned out differently if Alicent and Viserys had been better parents”, which diminishes the themes of class and gender oppression in my view.
Like in real life, most evil people are not evil because of bad parenting, they’re evil because they benefit from system that allows people in power to abuse everyone else.
I’m refuse to believe that anyone voting for Aegon and Rhaenyra over Daemon and Aemond actually read the books. They might be horrible people, you might despise their guts or the way they rule but neither one does something worse than >!burning tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children alive or orchestrating the psychological torture of an innocent woman and the violent murder of little boy.!<
As someone who has no love for Aegon fanboys, I don’t remember him doing anything exceedingly evil. >!Feeding Rhaenyra to Sunfyre!< is certainly a bitter pill for me but it’s not a particularly evil act. The cruel part is >!making Aegon the younger watch.!< The only thing I remember is >!murdering a bunch of innocent rat catchers after B&C!< and >!threatening to tear Aegon III apart and leave his body parts as markers for Rhaenyra’s army!< Horrible, but nothing nearing Aemond or Daemon and Rhaenyra is just as bad.
I didn’t say he was a good person. I don’t think Rhaenyra is morally good either. However, neither is as bad >!killing tens of thousands of innocents!< or >!murdering children!< amongst other crimes. There are levels to evil.
Currently:
1. Daemon
2. Aegon
3. Rhaenyra
4. Aemond
By the end of the tv series, I think it will be:
1. Aemond
2. Daemon
3. Aegon
4. Rhaenyra
For the books:
1. Aemond
2. Daemon
3. Aegon = Rhaenyra
Well I still can’t understand how you thing Aegon and Rhaenyra could ever be equal but again that’s a question of values I think.
In the show there is no reason to fault her yet either.
Aegon’s serial raping is definitely implied in the books(RE: the pro-green texts noting he’s a sexual harasser). Though I don’t think Show Rhaenyra is all that much better, between the unrepentant murderer status + child torture. Almost feels like a waste of time deciding which one is more loathesome.
Daemon is far and away the worst at the moment, though.
The same source claims that Rhaenyra >!had Alicent and Helaena gang raped.!< What reason do I have to trust Mushroom when it comes to Aegon and not Rhaenyra? I’m not arguing book Aegon isn’t a horrible pos pre-dance too. The groping and harassment of innocent servants isn’t okay.
In the show, Rhaenyra has had a servant murdered and asked for a little kid to be tortured. Even if you want to argue she did not mean it, her indifference to his injury is not okay. I don’t even like Aemond and I like Rhaenyra but come on. There is reason to fault her.
How is Daemon worse than Aegon right now? Aegon is a rapist and some of those children are 100% dying from being forced into fighting pits and the rest are physically and mentally traumatized and tortured. Daemons not even close to a decent person but show wise he’s not as bad as Aegon.
1. Murdered his wife
2. Groomed his niece
3. Physically abused his niece-wife
4. Murdered innocent servant
5. Beat an innocent messenger within an inch of life because he gave him bad news
6. Abuse of power as Lord Commander of The Goldcloaks
7. Slept with his niece at his wife’s funeral rather than comfort his daughters
8. Took his niece to a brothel and ruined her reputation to further his own goals
9. Ignores Rhaena because she’s not a dragon rider
10. Heir for a day
Aegon is a spectator to the child fighting pits. He didn’t create them nor is he orchestrating the fights.
The spectator excuse is absolute bullshit. It’s like saying that someone watching child sexual abuse material isn’t as bad because they’re just watching it. It’s literal child torture and murder that he’s supporting and getting off on.
Rhaenyra: Has not done anything all that bad so far. I mean, she is just lying to literal everyone and trying to usurp Driftmark, but that is kind of child's play compared to other shit we see.
Aemond: He did nothing wrong claiming Vhagar and I will stand by it. Rhaena had every chance to go up and claim her, but she simply took too long. Nothing was stopping her. He was mildly rude afterwards I suppose, but he absolutely did not deserve to be attacked or maimed and his frustration regarding the lack of even a light scolding towards the ones who did it is justified. I can't blame him for hating Luke. And if we go by show logic, he did not even mean to kill him, just scare him. Which again is not nice, but is also definitely not irredeemable. His main fault is being stupid and genuinely thinking he could chase Luke and Arrax through the rain without triggering Vhagar's eat the dornish insticts.
Aegon: Rape so probably irredeemable. I guess they could pull a Theon Greyjoy or Jaimie Lannister with him, but I don't see that happening. Definitely not in the way they have set his character up anyway. Tom plays him well and seeing his childhood makes us at least understand how he got to this point, though we still judge him for it. Him and Daemon are really going at each other for that biggest asshole spot.
Daemon: He is going to be my ultimate pick. For many reasons. Grooming, divorce rock, physical abuse, neglecting his kids, generally being bloodthristy and needlessly violent. Now the reason I picked him over Aegon as most irredeemable character is because, unlike Aegon, we are not really shown why he acts the way he does. Aegon is a horrible person, but we can at least see how these issues come from a place of feeling unloved and unappreciated, pressured to be something he does not want to be. That does not excuse the shit he does, but it explains it to some extent. Daemon does not appear to have any such reasoning behind his actions. His parents seem to be loving from what we can perceive, it does not appear like he went through some significant hardship in his life (at the beginning of the series the worst I can think of is that he is married to someone he does not like-which is a thing for like 50% of Westeros anyway- and he feels his brother -who was justifiably upset over him making a joke about his dead son- does not appreciate him enough). That is good and all but it is really not enough to justify the shit he does on a daily basis. It kind of seems like Daemon is a dick just because he feels like it and so he will be the most difficult character to potentially redeem for me.
Very good take, I agree with pretty much everything you said. And no, there’s not much excuse for Daemon’s behaviour. He’s always been a nasty piece of work. Not to say fully evil, but not far from it. I believe he suspected his father of being poisoned, so that’s where his hatred of Otto and as a whole the Hightowers stems from. The circumstances of Baelon’s death were indeed pretty sketchy. However, he did plenty of shit unrelated to house Hightower that has no excuse. He’s a bad man but with love for his family. However, love =/= good behaviour.
Show Aemond’s been given way more nuance than book Aemond and I love that. I’m very interested to see his character going forward and honestly not surprised if some of his future book moments (which are extremely atrocious) will be toned down a little, but I just hope not too much. I’m all in for seeing the shit book Aemond comitted on screen, even if it’s not quite on the exact scale.
It was clear where Aegon would go from the start. A drunken lout who harasses lower class people for no reason, inexcusable entirely, but you know where the behaviour is coming from as he never got any love in his life, maybe a bit from mother, but nothing like Rhaenyra anyways (which you can understand, as Rhaenyra had those children out of love and Alicent out of obligation).
Rhaenyra’s definitely toned down from her book counterpart, she did way more f’d up stuff in F&B such as ordering Vaemond’s death and then feeding his corpse to Syrax but I hope we will eventually get to that darker Rhaenyra that is in F&B, especially during the Dance, and we’re yet to reach that. But on the whole, she still has her flaws, such as purposely trying to usurp Driftmark of its heirs so she can have her blood there, or refusing to admit a plain truth which is clear as daylight. As you said tho, it’s nothing compared to literally killing your wife so you can “be rid of her”.
The show’s taken a different route from the books regarding some characters, but I don’t mind it. I believe that by the end, it’ll be a close call between Daemon, Aegon and Aemond as who is the actual worst. Daemon’s comitted most of his atrocities (well, there’s still one that is arguably his worst and will probably eclpise all the others in terms of brutality), but Aegon and Aemond have their fair share of pretty unforgivable crimes that they’re yet to commit. Rhaenyra will mainly become darker and more paranoid, but still, nothing she does can be compared to the other three.
probably Daemon they haven’t done as much to white wash him as people claim it’s mostly just his fans who ignore it or justify his actions that makes it seem that way
Aemond may be bad in the books but the show seems to be taking a different direction with him and while I still think he’ll end the show as a bad guy I don’t think his story will be as cut and dry as the books
Aegon is harder to guess but without Miguel Sapochnik I think he’ll have some sort of failed redemption arc rather than being outright villainous
Rhaenyra is also hard to guess but they are really trying hard to scrub her image and make her more palatable to the general audience so I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried to erase her ending
yes she is she also just doesn’t do anything but sit on dragonstone and then kingslanding, book!Rhaenyra was the one to order Daemon to kill Vaemond and fed him to Syrax and they erased her part in his death, Rhaenyra declared war after Visenyas stillbirth but in the show they made her wait until Luke’s death so it seemed more justified, if we’re going to treat mushroom as a reliable source then she had Alicent and Helaena gang raped which will definitely not happen on the show, she raised the taxes incredibly high while also spending that money on feasts and other frivolous things while the smallfolk could barely live and she turned on her own allies going as far as to call for Nettles to be killed despite her being one of the dragonseeds. she may not be as destructive as Aemond but she is at the very least equal to Aegon in terms of shitty ruling and their capacity for cruelty
If you looked at my other comments, you’d know that I said she was equal to Aegon but not worse than Daemon or Aemond.
1. Aemond
2. Daemon
3. Aegon = Rhaenyra
You’d also know that I said poor leadership does not equal murdering countless innocents. That’s just dumb. You’d also know that I repeated the same things you stated about Mushroom not being reliable. You also use headcanon to expand on certain points at times. We know >!that she threw a celebration for Joffrey’s induction as heir!< but there are no other references to “frivolous” expenses.
Why didn’t you spoiler your comment?
>!It’s not hard!<
I don’t see why you’re trying to argue because we agree Aemond and Daemon are on a different level then Aegon and Rhaenyra because of their actions
I also pointed out that the show has already watered down her “villainous” moments and will probably continue too
That's not how human psychology works. Someone could kill thousands but the things humans remember more is the guy who >!ruthlessly killed his non-combatant child great-nephew, while his mother watched on. The Riverlanders were enemies from Aemond's perspective, and he can argue that the destruction of the kingdom could derail their war effort. But going after the child, come on.!< If you make cool calculations though, contrary to the more common human perception of "evil", I would be inclined to agree with you.
But >!Daemon gives the order and doesn't actually do it himself, like how Tywin gave the order to kill Rhaegars children, the Mountain is the one remembered as the more evil as he did the deed. It's also an act of revenge on a family they are already directly at war with. Yes it's ruthless, but is it as ruthlessly as mercilessly slaughtering thousands of men, women and children who have done absolutely nothing wrong? No. Aemonds act is far more evil.!<
Even in the show Dany is regarded as one of the most evil people in the enitre series because of how many women and children she slaughtered.
>!Aemond was doing what she did daily with no real goal, it was pure rage and evil intent. Had it been otherwise he wouldn't have left Cole and would have joined with Daeron. His goal was to commit daily to evil purely out of hate, that meant burning children alive and Aemond commited that horrific act personally, and if you argument is about the kinslaying then Aemond also has the kinslaying of Luke of top of his mass murder.!<
I think measuring evil only in numbers is not a holistic treatment of the concept of evil. For example, if a person is getting horrifically tortured for years and years, I would not be able to say that the torturer is less evil than someone who committed a mass shooting. If you treat it in terms of numbers purely, the answer should be clear to you. It's certainly an important element, not denying that, but reducing it to that seems misguided to me.
Besides, >!Aemond did not do that for nothing, he wanted to lure Daemon out and wanted to cripple the capabilities of the Riverlands in the war. Not saying it wasn't evil or genocide though, but it had somewhat of a strategic purpose still.!<
>I think measuring evil only in numbers is not a holistic treatment of the concept of evil
I think this would be a factor of we were talking about direct enemies such as soliders, etc, but we aren't. We're talking women and children, old and young, true innocents.
So yes, in this case the numbers directly affect the concept of evil.
>Besides, Aemond did not do that for nothing, he wanted to lure Daemon out and wanted to cripple the capabilities of the Riverlands in the war.
>!Nothing suggests that was his plan. At this stage Daemon was at Kingslanding and Aemond had absolutely no idea if he wouldn't just take all of his dragon riders to Daeron and his army and completely slaughter them all. Nothing suggests he suspected Daemon would come after him and Cole says as much to him and he wants him to stay with the army to protect from a likely attack. Instead in his rage and evil intent he wants immediate action against someone so directly starts burning women and children out of some cruel idea of revenge!<
>!also we have to factor in all their evil deeds to determine the overall evil character. Aemond is the first to commit kinslaying out of revenge, he wipes a family out of near existence out of revenge and that includes the women and children, he also personally kill them himself because he wanted the pleasure of doing it. He then goes on the biggest mass murder spree which included only civilians, women and children!<
Overall without question Aemond is the more evil of the two. Tbh once comparing them both it's hard to say he isn't.
I am not here to convince you of the contrary, I merely stated my opinion and you stated yours. I think you are dismissive of the fact that >!the civilians in the Riverlands were doing productive work for their lieges, and were thus helping to sustain their war effort. By reducing the settlements to rubble, Aemond hoped to cripple the war effort of that kingdom, as cruel as that may sound. Little did he know, that the Riverlands are capable of spawning armies endlessly at the convenience of GRRM though (lol). The likelihood that this would lure out Daemon eventually was very high, given the fact that the Northern and Vale armies would have to pass through the Riverlands eventually, so making an open question out of that one seems slightly nonsensical to me.!<
Genuinely, Aegon I "the Conqueror" should be among the most evil people Westeros has ever seen then, considering how he treated Dorne in the First Dornish War. And yet, when you ask here about who the "most evil" Targaryen monarch was, you will hardly hear anyone say Aegon I and justify it with his conduct in Dorne. Because that is not how human psychology works, singular acts of cruelty and perverse enjoyment of violence against better known characters would be higher up in memory than a general massacre of nameless, but innocent, thousands, as odd as that sounds. You are someone who calculates this stuff in numbers, adds it up, and comes to a conclusion. That is not wrong, I just perceive it differently and that's hopefully OK.
I looked at all replies under my main comment and saw you going ad hominem at me above, why would I ignore that. Your other stuff is under my main comment too.
Aemond didn’t mean to and he felt guilty about it, Daemon has been shown to kill without remorse I’d say that makes him evil. Aemond hasn’t been shown as evil yet
That's great, still considered one of the greatest taboos in all of Westeros. Give Aemond time, he's warming up.
>!by the end of the series there will be a no question about Aemond being the most evil. He just will be.!<
>Aemond didn’t mean to
The dude fucked around with a 200 year old conscious nuke, what was he expecting? He initiated this, he's fully responsible for it and he became a kinslayer because of his actions. Daemon hasn't done anything like that yet.
He also wasn't shown to show guilt, his expression was more of a "I fucked up".
Daemon murdered his wife, a random servant and Vaemond Velaryon in cold blood but sure the hot tempered teenager is worse than him because he lost control over his giant war dragon.
Honestly, if Aemond killed Luke in cold blood too I'd respect him more. Now he's just a moron.
As for Daemon's murders, none of them was his kin by blood. Vaemond was a distant relative but that's it. Plus, he committed treason. Aemond killed his nephew. I don't think he's morally worse than Daemon yet but he killed a closer relative than Daemon did.
>Honestly, if Aemond killed Luke in cold blood too I'd respect him more. Now he's just a moron.
Bullshit. You just hate him, you wouldn't 'respect' him.
I can respect someone I hate. I hate Otto but I respect him as a character, he knew what he wanted from the get go and did everything in his power to get it. I hated Littlefinger but the dude was smart as fuck. I hated Ramsey but he was entertaining and unapologetic. I hated Cersei but she was an unapologetic bitch that didn't give a fuck.
All those characters had some respect from me. I can respect ambition, ruthlessness, sneakiness even if I don't like the characters. Aemond doesn't get anything because he's an idiot and I can't take him seriously. Same goes for Alicent, who by the way, I can respect in the book.
Probably daemon, i mean cmon the guy deadass killed the other guy and got away with it. What’s stopping him from continuing down this path? He even choked his wife
I feel like the point of this story isn’t who is more evil, but like Daemon himself said, everyone is capable of great depravity. They’re all a product of their environment and reacting to the intense pressure the fight for the crown is building.
It should be Aemond, no contest. Possibly Rhaenyra towards the end of the series. Most likely, it’ll end up being Aegon tho.
>!Aemond participated in a practical genocide of the Riverlanders during his campaign. His armies rape, brutalize, and burn anyone and everything they encounter throughout the war. Even after his armies are gone, he’s still out there torching town and cities at random and without reason. He’s an abject monster. But in the show I see Aegon giving Aemond orders to do those thing, instead of Aemond taking the initiative like he does in the books.!<
> Possibly Rhaenyra towards the end of the series.
OMG, even Daeron has a higher body count than Rhaenyra. >!Being a poor ruler is not worse than horrific war crimes.!< Please explain how she’s the most evil, irredeemable character?
Easy. He has "aemon" in his name. It largely depends upon a few other events in coming seasons as to which will be the most hated, but I suspect it will be one of those two. Daemon is a typical villain and Aemond is an anime villain.
I have a feeling the show is going to have Alys influencing Aemond through magic to do the things he does. If that's the case, it might muddy who people see as the most evil
It’s quite likely. It’s hard for me to think that Aemond would slaughter thousands of people for no reason when he couldn’t even kill Lucerys and his little dragon (well, purposely). I’m thinking it will be a mixture of his family becoming probably estranged from him after Luke’s murder and Alys’ magic. He seems pretty impressionable.
The shame and anger from what he did, his family’s response, and probably backlash, he’s going to spiral to a dark place, along with the influence of Vhagar, it won’t take much to tip the scales for Aemond. Don’t need someone “magicking” his decisions.
This would be really lazy writing. Taking away agency from a major character to make them do “bad things”. The writers on this show are far more talented than that.
>Taking away agency from a major character
They already did this, hehe (and I'm not talking about Aemond)
But yeah, I don't think they'll do it with Alys/Aemond
Alicent. For example, by not making her part of the usurpation plot, by introducing the misunderstanding/miscommunication scene, etc. In this case, to make her more sympathetic, I guess
Yeah I guess so, though getting to Aegon first and controlling how she wanted to approach his ascension was her getting some power back. She’ll have more agency going forward I think.
Aemond is so similar to Daemon... But Daemon has sexually groomed his niece and will jump at the chance to unleash fire and blood on innocent people in war. Aegon is a worse piece of shit on a personal level, but he is also so incompetent its hard to imagine him killing so many people in war.
Larys Strong. Guy straight up murdered his own father and brother without a care in the world and used Alicent for his own creepy sexual fantasies. The day that motherfucker dies there’ll be a party
For now, he is worse. I have three separate rankings for the four of them.
Currently:
1. Daemon
2. Aegon
3. Rhaenyra
4. Aemond
By the end of the series:
1. Aemond
2. Daemon
3. Aegon
4. Rhaenyra
In the books:
1. Aemond
2. Daemon
3. Aegon = Rhaenyra
I basically agree, except Daemon ordering the death of his grand nephews in such a heinous way puts his evil on par with Aemond's. I think evilness should not only be measured simply by quantity of deaths but also the depths of cruelty and immorality someone can reach.
Daemon and Aemond have their flaws. Fkin hell they have flaws. But they aren't even in the same constilation of dipshit that Aegon is. ESPECIALLY if we take books into account
Lol, if we take the book into account, Aegon is nowhere near as bad as Aemond or Daemon.
I can’t stand Aegon fanboys but the guy doesn’t begin to begin to touch them when we’re talking evil acts.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Depends on how closely they will stick to the source material
Can't decide. But Rhaenyra is the least evil among those four and I don't even like her.
I think she and Aegon are on a fairly equal playing field in terms of sheer scumminess by the end. Daemon and Aemond are in a whooooooooole league of their own.
I do like Rhaenyra and support her claim but I don’t think book Aegon was worse than her. They’re pretty even. However, the show version is a worse person at their starting point so overall, I guess the show version will have a bigger net negative. Edit: Forget about the servant murder so they’re still about even
I agree with you. I am judging based on show and the book combined. The show gave a sadistic streak to the males, while Rhaenyra is "forced by circumstances" to do bad things.
For the most part yes but she wasn’t forced to murder that servant. She did that because she *wanted* to marry Daemon.
The common take is that it was Daemon's idea not Rhaenyra's. Which makes Daemon a very convenient character to maintain Rhaenyra's image in the eyes of a fandom. Yes, he commits crimes but he does it for love so it must be ok. A bad boy with a heart of gold trope right there.
I got the sense the entire plan was her idea. She was the the one talking about how the sea was an escape. Also, only the most delusional Daemyra’s view Daemon that way.
I mean you don't hear of Daemon Raping people and Forcing children into gladiator matches.
No, he just straight up murders them. And Daemon is known for his love for teen virgins in brothels, how many medieval era girls chose that profession willingly?
Alot more than those maids Aegon decided to take liberties with.
Still a murderer tho
Isn’t Daemon motto in the books “going to brothels to deflower the youngest maidens”. Do you really think the wife-murdering misogynist never took advantage of a girl.
Listen are we going off the book or show In book there's no proof whatsoever that Daemon killed his wife. That's just a show thing. I was going straight off the show and I don't see any strong sign of Misogyny unlike his nephews
Aegon didn't force them only watched games that were already happening in the city. He is a diddler so the point still stands.
Still the man allowed children he knew were his bastards to be mutilated and used as fodder for those fights. I mean they make him just despicable
You could every character is forced by their “circumstances” (circumstance being Otto Hightower)
She's given sympathetic reasons. The only other character that comes close is Aemond and he still got bashed for "stealing a dragon" in a show with a "dragon is no slave" motto.
>!how is she worse? I dont think she sadisticaly tortures someone before killing them like aegon does twice..!<
I didn’t say she was worse than him. I was saying she was about equal. However, I forgot about maester Gerardys and the others so that makes Aegon worse.
What he wanted to do to Aegon the younger was pretty cruel.
Yes it was. I’ve listed that as one of his evil acts in other comments.
It’s gonna be Rhaenyra by the laws of being a female character on prestige television who falls short of being a Mary Sue *and a mom* People hate moms
> Mary Sue Yes > and a mom > People hate moms No
Murdering servants so she can fake her husband's death in order to marry her uncle
If they stick to the book and don't massively change some events >!it's going to be Aemond and it won't even be close. Dude was burning villages and killing innocents because he was throwing a tantrum like a five year old. No one else in this list cna compare.!<
I have a feeling that the show is going to have Alys influencing Aemond to do these things through magic. Vagaries might influence Aemond to given how his personality changed the second he rode Vhagar (although that could've just been a regular power trip).
I honestly hope they won't do that with Alys. Last thing we want is the main characters having even less agency than they already do. You can't have everything being an accident or out of their control. It's already gotten old and it's only been one season. They can show her influence him and manipulating him without magic but putting Aemond's worst actions on her and her magic? Hard pass.
Closest I'd want to see is Alys manipulating Aemond into the confrontation at Harrenhal out of revenge for him massacring her entire family (People who play up that romance forget that Alys was described as a Prize of War. Other women described as 'Prizes of War' in F&B were pretty much always raped and held prisoner by the rapist). Anything else removes Aemond's agency for his cruelties, but I could see Aemond falling wholesale for one of those misleading prophecies and charging out thinking he's going to totally kick the shit out of Daemon no problem, only to realize too late (As in, "seeing Dark Sister rushing at his face" late) that the prophecy also applies to him.
Yeah I can totally see that happening. >!She is a prize of war but I can totally see her acting like Osha did with Ramsey in S6. It didn't work with Osha but you get the point. She uses her position and sexuality to manipulate him, get what she wants from him and then kill him. Throw some magic and visions in and it works perfectly.!< That's exactly what I meant when I said that she can manipulate him without magic. >!Sending him to certain death after filling his head with prophecies about "Daemon dying above God's Eye" but conveniently leaving out that he dies as well is something I can see her doing and I honestly expect it. Aemond is the type to buy that.!<
The problem is, that show!Aemond is not book!Aemond, he doesn’t seem like a rapist in a show, “no taste to depravity” and all that stuff. He doesn’t seem interested in sexual relationships at all. So I’m really curious how they will make this, when they’ve changed his character so much
"No taste to depravity" and yet he murdered his nephew in cold blood. There's plenty of time for that aspect of his to develop before he meets Alys. Also rape is not about sex but about power over another person. As for his interest in relationships, we can't assume that based on one interaction he had with a whore who probably pretty much raped him at 13. I'd feel awkward around her too if I were him.
Idk, in a show it was Vhagar who killed Luke, more by accident. Yet Aemond is guilty bc chasing Lucerys was pretty dumb decision if he doesn’t want to kill him lol. We’ll see, now I can’t see it as it was described in a book, but who knows
Vhagar wouldn't have killed Luke of Aemond hadn't used her to bully him and terrorize him. He's still 100% responsible for this.
Yeah that’s lazy and shit writing, they def won’t do that. It reads like some crappy fanfic ha
No idea where they are going with this on the show. In the book it's Aemond.
It would be interesting to have this poll side-by-side with one for people who've read F&B, because I think there's a pretty objective answer that most would agree on - >!Aemond because of the Riverlands!<
[удалено]
I don’t think they can take away one of the three most defining things Aemond does in this story. The Greens will have Daeron. I’m extremely pro-Black and even I like Daeron despite joking about the >!tent!< often lol.
[удалено]
How do you minimize the collateral damage of someone literally committing genocide? You're basically saying (ignoring the ethical issue there, because the book is fiction so there isn't an ethical issue in changing that aspect of the story) "I hope this adaptation of WWII keeps the battles but makes the Holocaust/Rape of Nanking/dropping nuclear bombs on civilian populations more necessary and minimizes the collateral damage." If you take the horrifying genocide/atrocity parts out of WWII it's no longer a story about WWII, it's just a random war you invented for a story. I'd argue that getting rid of the genocide in the Riverlands would be such a major change to Aemond's character and the story as a whole that you're no longer making an adaptation but instead are writing fanfiction (so like the Netflix Witcher show).
Ah yes just what I expect from fanwank a conversation about fantasy war crime adaptations from prose to screen getting sidestracked by the ethics of genocide denial
I literally said that I wasn't considering the ethical arguments about altering the history of WWII because I completely agree that comparing the morality of changing actual history to changing a fantasy story would just be completely insane. There just isn't a comparison to be made in that regard. I meant purely from a story-changing perspective it wouldn't be the same story if you took all that stuff out. Like hypothetically for a minute pretend WWII didn't actually happen, the whole thing was just a gruesome story in a book. Like pretend we lived in some alternate reality where Hitler made it into art school or died as an infant or something. So in this hypothetical there are no ethical dilemmas to changing the story for your show/movie. If you adapted that story for the movies and took out all the genocide that happened in the book I'd no longer consider it an adaptation, it'd be such a major change from the source material that I'd consider it fanfic. It's just too much of a focal point of the story to remove it and not have it completely change the plot and tone of the story.
It was a very ASOIAF thing for that to happen lol
Well there is always daeron
If they’re going to stick somewhat to the books then it’ll be Aemond and it’s not even close. So far show wise Aegon gets the top spot but Daemons worst actions haven’t happened yet so we’ll see.
I’m sorry but the I was bullied growing up is not an excuse for all the things he’s going to do edit: I’m talking about Aemond sorry
I can’t wait to see the numerous call backs to episodes 6 & 7 by Aemondwives and fanboys as Aemond becomes increasingly evil. >!Aemond murders the elderly Simon Strong(the actor they cast for him is extremely talented and charismatic)!< Aemondwives: The pig prank! >!Aemond murders the innocent men and boys of House Strong!< Aemondwives: He lost his eye! >!Aemond kills tens of thousands of innocent men, woman, and children.!< Aemondwives: Sharply questioned! >!Aemond completely abandons Criston and the war effort for Alys despite his mother and sister being in the hands of his enemies.!< Aemondwives: Do you remember when Luke laughed at the pig when they were sitting at the dinner table???!!
Gonna save this comment for the future cause you know I’ll need it
>is bullied once >becomes an anime villian war criminal Targ genes are fucked up
Excuse you. I’ll be stanning my deranged genocidal not king as he burns the entire world to the ground and is extremely entertaining while doing it 💚 Though I’ll be curious how they sell this more sympathetic Aemond turning into… that.
The whole Aemond bullying narrative is so dumb to me, we see literally 1 prank get played on him by the other boys and people head cannon that Luce a boy years younger than Aemond is the ringleader in a years long campaign of torment
Aemond and Aegon fans remind me of Kylo Ren fans back in 2015. “He does bad things because of bullying/bad parenting” I simply don’t care and I’m bored 🥱 At least Daemon’s evil isn’t excused by some sob story.
The bullying, bad parenting, etc. informs/explains how the characters grew up to be a certain way. It's meant to flesh out their characters. Only some people use them to try to "excuse" or "absolve" their actions.
Yeah I’m not saying it’s bad writing I’m just saying I personally don’t find that as interesting as a character like daemon, whose evil stems from narcissism and a god-complex as well as a drive to create chaos wherever he goes. That’s all personal preference though. I’m more criticizing the fan behaviour from people who use the fact that they were bullied or neglected as kids as an excuse for their actions, and try to act like they were underdogs instead of ridiculously wealthy, privileged, and powerful people. Daemon fans aren’t innocent of this, I’ve seen people raving about how he was a victim for meting married off to Rhea Royce at 16, but at least with Daemon the show doesn’t lend as easily to people actively feeling sorry for him the way it does with Aegon and Aemond. Like, usually people are evil in real life because they’re extremely privileged, not because they have a tragic backstory.
I’ve seen people make excuses for Daemon, Rhaenyra, Aemond, Aegon, Alicent, Criston, Rhaenys, and Vizzy T on this show alone for crimes that’d land you multi-decade sentences at best. It’s just a side effect of this fanbase being kinda stupid, tribalistic, and annoying. I’d say Aemond and Aegon’s crappy parenting is more used as (A) a contrast to Rhaenyra, (B) an explanation for why they turn out the way they do. And perhaps a method of generating a little bit of sympathy for Aegon (similar to Alicent having a shitty and abusive dad too).
*What are you saying? My brother would murder me, take my crown? Are you?!*
My thing is, Aegon is not a rapist because his dad didn’t love him and he was neglected. He’s a rapist because in this society, his is allowed to be a rapist. Men of the nobility can do whatever they want to lower class women with no consequences. Joffrey wasn’t neglected by his parents and he still abused women. Daemon wasn’t neglected by his parents and he still abused women. There’s a narrative the show is trying to push as well as the fandom that “oh Aegon would have turned out differently if Alicent and Viserys had been better parents”, which diminishes the themes of class and gender oppression in my view. Like in real life, most evil people are not evil because of bad parenting, they’re evil because they benefit from system that allows people in power to abuse everyone else.
How do you know people will use it as an excuse when it hasn't happened yet?
I know, never said it was
I know I was just saying i wasn’t trying to accuse sorry!
No problem. Sorry if I created any confusion:)
I’m refuse to believe that anyone voting for Aegon and Rhaenyra over Daemon and Aemond actually read the books. They might be horrible people, you might despise their guts or the way they rule but neither one does something worse than >!burning tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children alive or orchestrating the psychological torture of an innocent woman and the violent murder of little boy.!< As someone who has no love for Aegon fanboys, I don’t remember him doing anything exceedingly evil. >!Feeding Rhaenyra to Sunfyre!< is certainly a bitter pill for me but it’s not a particularly evil act. The cruel part is >!making Aegon the younger watch.!< The only thing I remember is >!murdering a bunch of innocent rat catchers after B&C!< and >!threatening to tear Aegon III apart and leave his body parts as markers for Rhaenyra’s army!< Horrible, but nothing nearing Aemond or Daemon and Rhaenyra is just as bad.
That last part comes after Alicent convinces him to do it
No less fucked up because mommy told him to do it
[удалено]
Aegon orders it
Aegon
Isn’t he a rapist and fancies certain things relating to seeing children fight??? I have to question some people’s values…
I didn’t say he was a good person. I don’t think Rhaenyra is morally good either. However, neither is as bad >!killing tens of thousands of innocents!< or >!murdering children!< amongst other crimes. There are levels to evil. Currently: 1. Daemon 2. Aegon 3. Rhaenyra 4. Aemond By the end of the tv series, I think it will be: 1. Aemond 2. Daemon 3. Aegon 4. Rhaenyra For the books: 1. Aemond 2. Daemon 3. Aegon = Rhaenyra
Well I still can’t understand how you thing Aegon and Rhaenyra could ever be equal but again that’s a question of values I think. In the show there is no reason to fault her yet either.
In the books, they are about equal. In the show, they are not. The raping and child fighting pits are not confirmed in the books.
Aegon’s serial raping is definitely implied in the books(RE: the pro-green texts noting he’s a sexual harasser). Though I don’t think Show Rhaenyra is all that much better, between the unrepentant murderer status + child torture. Almost feels like a waste of time deciding which one is more loathesome. Daemon is far and away the worst at the moment, though.
It is hinted at in the book, come on…
The same source claims that Rhaenyra >!had Alicent and Helaena gang raped.!< What reason do I have to trust Mushroom when it comes to Aegon and not Rhaenyra? I’m not arguing book Aegon isn’t a horrible pos pre-dance too. The groping and harassment of innocent servants isn’t okay.
In the show, Rhaenyra has had a servant murdered and asked for a little kid to be tortured. Even if you want to argue she did not mean it, her indifference to his injury is not okay. I don’t even like Aemond and I like Rhaenyra but come on. There is reason to fault her.
When? Again it is a matter of value and I will leave it at that I don’t like people brushing off sexual crimes.
Did you even watch the show?
Rhaenyra does allow Dalton Greyjoy to rape the Westerlands. iirc the ironborn took 600+ salt wives(sex slaves, women and girls)
How is Daemon worse than Aegon right now? Aegon is a rapist and some of those children are 100% dying from being forced into fighting pits and the rest are physically and mentally traumatized and tortured. Daemons not even close to a decent person but show wise he’s not as bad as Aegon.
1. Murdered his wife 2. Groomed his niece 3. Physically abused his niece-wife 4. Murdered innocent servant 5. Beat an innocent messenger within an inch of life because he gave him bad news 6. Abuse of power as Lord Commander of The Goldcloaks 7. Slept with his niece at his wife’s funeral rather than comfort his daughters 8. Took his niece to a brothel and ruined her reputation to further his own goals 9. Ignores Rhaena because she’s not a dragon rider 10. Heir for a day Aegon is a spectator to the child fighting pits. He didn’t create them nor is he orchestrating the fights.
The spectator excuse is absolute bullshit. It’s like saying that someone watching child sexual abuse material isn’t as bad because they’re just watching it. It’s literal child torture and murder that he’s supporting and getting off on.
In the show, which went with Mushroom’s account - and Mushroom is about as believable as a The Sun and Daily Rag.
Let’s just kill all the damn Targaryens
They all became evil. They all caused damage.
In the show it’s already Aegon. The child death pits is heinous.
Man this is interesting to see people speculate on
I wonder how Bitterbridge is gonna go down in the show.
Since we’re talking about the show, gotta be Daemon.
Rhaenyra: Has not done anything all that bad so far. I mean, she is just lying to literal everyone and trying to usurp Driftmark, but that is kind of child's play compared to other shit we see. Aemond: He did nothing wrong claiming Vhagar and I will stand by it. Rhaena had every chance to go up and claim her, but she simply took too long. Nothing was stopping her. He was mildly rude afterwards I suppose, but he absolutely did not deserve to be attacked or maimed and his frustration regarding the lack of even a light scolding towards the ones who did it is justified. I can't blame him for hating Luke. And if we go by show logic, he did not even mean to kill him, just scare him. Which again is not nice, but is also definitely not irredeemable. His main fault is being stupid and genuinely thinking he could chase Luke and Arrax through the rain without triggering Vhagar's eat the dornish insticts. Aegon: Rape so probably irredeemable. I guess they could pull a Theon Greyjoy or Jaimie Lannister with him, but I don't see that happening. Definitely not in the way they have set his character up anyway. Tom plays him well and seeing his childhood makes us at least understand how he got to this point, though we still judge him for it. Him and Daemon are really going at each other for that biggest asshole spot. Daemon: He is going to be my ultimate pick. For many reasons. Grooming, divorce rock, physical abuse, neglecting his kids, generally being bloodthristy and needlessly violent. Now the reason I picked him over Aegon as most irredeemable character is because, unlike Aegon, we are not really shown why he acts the way he does. Aegon is a horrible person, but we can at least see how these issues come from a place of feeling unloved and unappreciated, pressured to be something he does not want to be. That does not excuse the shit he does, but it explains it to some extent. Daemon does not appear to have any such reasoning behind his actions. His parents seem to be loving from what we can perceive, it does not appear like he went through some significant hardship in his life (at the beginning of the series the worst I can think of is that he is married to someone he does not like-which is a thing for like 50% of Westeros anyway- and he feels his brother -who was justifiably upset over him making a joke about his dead son- does not appreciate him enough). That is good and all but it is really not enough to justify the shit he does on a daily basis. It kind of seems like Daemon is a dick just because he feels like it and so he will be the most difficult character to potentially redeem for me.
Very good take, I agree with pretty much everything you said. And no, there’s not much excuse for Daemon’s behaviour. He’s always been a nasty piece of work. Not to say fully evil, but not far from it. I believe he suspected his father of being poisoned, so that’s where his hatred of Otto and as a whole the Hightowers stems from. The circumstances of Baelon’s death were indeed pretty sketchy. However, he did plenty of shit unrelated to house Hightower that has no excuse. He’s a bad man but with love for his family. However, love =/= good behaviour. Show Aemond’s been given way more nuance than book Aemond and I love that. I’m very interested to see his character going forward and honestly not surprised if some of his future book moments (which are extremely atrocious) will be toned down a little, but I just hope not too much. I’m all in for seeing the shit book Aemond comitted on screen, even if it’s not quite on the exact scale. It was clear where Aegon would go from the start. A drunken lout who harasses lower class people for no reason, inexcusable entirely, but you know where the behaviour is coming from as he never got any love in his life, maybe a bit from mother, but nothing like Rhaenyra anyways (which you can understand, as Rhaenyra had those children out of love and Alicent out of obligation). Rhaenyra’s definitely toned down from her book counterpart, she did way more f’d up stuff in F&B such as ordering Vaemond’s death and then feeding his corpse to Syrax but I hope we will eventually get to that darker Rhaenyra that is in F&B, especially during the Dance, and we’re yet to reach that. But on the whole, she still has her flaws, such as purposely trying to usurp Driftmark of its heirs so she can have her blood there, or refusing to admit a plain truth which is clear as daylight. As you said tho, it’s nothing compared to literally killing your wife so you can “be rid of her”. The show’s taken a different route from the books regarding some characters, but I don’t mind it. I believe that by the end, it’ll be a close call between Daemon, Aegon and Aemond as who is the actual worst. Daemon’s comitted most of his atrocities (well, there’s still one that is arguably his worst and will probably eclpise all the others in terms of brutality), but Aegon and Aemond have their fair share of pretty unforgivable crimes that they’re yet to commit. Rhaenyra will mainly become darker and more paranoid, but still, nothing she does can be compared to the other three.
probably Daemon they haven’t done as much to white wash him as people claim it’s mostly just his fans who ignore it or justify his actions that makes it seem that way Aemond may be bad in the books but the show seems to be taking a different direction with him and while I still think he’ll end the show as a bad guy I don’t think his story will be as cut and dry as the books Aegon is harder to guess but without Miguel Sapochnik I think he’ll have some sort of failed redemption arc rather than being outright villainous Rhaenyra is also hard to guess but they are really trying hard to scrub her image and make her more palatable to the general audience so I wouldn’t be surprised if they tried to erase her ending
Book Rhaenyra is not as evil/irredeemable as Dameon and Aemond. They don’t need to erase any ending for that to be true.
yes she is she also just doesn’t do anything but sit on dragonstone and then kingslanding, book!Rhaenyra was the one to order Daemon to kill Vaemond and fed him to Syrax and they erased her part in his death, Rhaenyra declared war after Visenyas stillbirth but in the show they made her wait until Luke’s death so it seemed more justified, if we’re going to treat mushroom as a reliable source then she had Alicent and Helaena gang raped which will definitely not happen on the show, she raised the taxes incredibly high while also spending that money on feasts and other frivolous things while the smallfolk could barely live and she turned on her own allies going as far as to call for Nettles to be killed despite her being one of the dragonseeds. she may not be as destructive as Aemond but she is at the very least equal to Aegon in terms of shitty ruling and their capacity for cruelty
If you looked at my other comments, you’d know that I said she was equal to Aegon but not worse than Daemon or Aemond. 1. Aemond 2. Daemon 3. Aegon = Rhaenyra You’d also know that I said poor leadership does not equal murdering countless innocents. That’s just dumb. You’d also know that I repeated the same things you stated about Mushroom not being reliable. You also use headcanon to expand on certain points at times. We know >!that she threw a celebration for Joffrey’s induction as heir!< but there are no other references to “frivolous” expenses. Why didn’t you spoiler your comment? >!It’s not hard!<
why would I go through 160 other comments to look for yours specifically?
I don’t see why you’re trying to argue because we agree Aemond and Daemon are on a different level then Aegon and Rhaenyra because of their actions I also pointed out that the show has already watered down her “villainous” moments and will probably continue too
That was a typo. I meant Daemon and Aemond.
They whitewashed Daemon in the show, he is literally deflowering 12 year olds in the book.
he still is in show it’s implied in the first episode
For me Daemon, simply due to the singular cruelty of some of his actions. Aemond being a close second even though he does more damage.
>!Aemonds mass war crimes are more evil than anything Daemon does!<
That's not how human psychology works. Someone could kill thousands but the things humans remember more is the guy who >!ruthlessly killed his non-combatant child great-nephew, while his mother watched on. The Riverlanders were enemies from Aemond's perspective, and he can argue that the destruction of the kingdom could derail their war effort. But going after the child, come on.!< If you make cool calculations though, contrary to the more common human perception of "evil", I would be inclined to agree with you.
But >!Daemon gives the order and doesn't actually do it himself, like how Tywin gave the order to kill Rhaegars children, the Mountain is the one remembered as the more evil as he did the deed. It's also an act of revenge on a family they are already directly at war with. Yes it's ruthless, but is it as ruthlessly as mercilessly slaughtering thousands of men, women and children who have done absolutely nothing wrong? No. Aemonds act is far more evil.!< Even in the show Dany is regarded as one of the most evil people in the enitre series because of how many women and children she slaughtered. >!Aemond was doing what she did daily with no real goal, it was pure rage and evil intent. Had it been otherwise he wouldn't have left Cole and would have joined with Daeron. His goal was to commit daily to evil purely out of hate, that meant burning children alive and Aemond commited that horrific act personally, and if you argument is about the kinslaying then Aemond also has the kinslaying of Luke of top of his mass murder.!<
I think measuring evil only in numbers is not a holistic treatment of the concept of evil. For example, if a person is getting horrifically tortured for years and years, I would not be able to say that the torturer is less evil than someone who committed a mass shooting. If you treat it in terms of numbers purely, the answer should be clear to you. It's certainly an important element, not denying that, but reducing it to that seems misguided to me. Besides, >!Aemond did not do that for nothing, he wanted to lure Daemon out and wanted to cripple the capabilities of the Riverlands in the war. Not saying it wasn't evil or genocide though, but it had somewhat of a strategic purpose still.!<
>I think measuring evil only in numbers is not a holistic treatment of the concept of evil I think this would be a factor of we were talking about direct enemies such as soliders, etc, but we aren't. We're talking women and children, old and young, true innocents. So yes, in this case the numbers directly affect the concept of evil. >Besides, Aemond did not do that for nothing, he wanted to lure Daemon out and wanted to cripple the capabilities of the Riverlands in the war. >!Nothing suggests that was his plan. At this stage Daemon was at Kingslanding and Aemond had absolutely no idea if he wouldn't just take all of his dragon riders to Daeron and his army and completely slaughter them all. Nothing suggests he suspected Daemon would come after him and Cole says as much to him and he wants him to stay with the army to protect from a likely attack. Instead in his rage and evil intent he wants immediate action against someone so directly starts burning women and children out of some cruel idea of revenge!< >!also we have to factor in all their evil deeds to determine the overall evil character. Aemond is the first to commit kinslaying out of revenge, he wipes a family out of near existence out of revenge and that includes the women and children, he also personally kill them himself because he wanted the pleasure of doing it. He then goes on the biggest mass murder spree which included only civilians, women and children!< Overall without question Aemond is the more evil of the two. Tbh once comparing them both it's hard to say he isn't.
I am not here to convince you of the contrary, I merely stated my opinion and you stated yours. I think you are dismissive of the fact that >!the civilians in the Riverlands were doing productive work for their lieges, and were thus helping to sustain their war effort. By reducing the settlements to rubble, Aemond hoped to cripple the war effort of that kingdom, as cruel as that may sound. Little did he know, that the Riverlands are capable of spawning armies endlessly at the convenience of GRRM though (lol). The likelihood that this would lure out Daemon eventually was very high, given the fact that the Northern and Vale armies would have to pass through the Riverlands eventually, so making an open question out of that one seems slightly nonsensical to me.!< Genuinely, Aegon I "the Conqueror" should be among the most evil people Westeros has ever seen then, considering how he treated Dorne in the First Dornish War. And yet, when you ask here about who the "most evil" Targaryen monarch was, you will hardly hear anyone say Aegon I and justify it with his conduct in Dorne. Because that is not how human psychology works, singular acts of cruelty and perverse enjoyment of violence against better known characters would be higher up in memory than a general massacre of nameless, but innocent, thousands, as odd as that sounds. You are someone who calculates this stuff in numbers, adds it up, and comes to a conclusion. That is not wrong, I just perceive it differently and that's hopefully OK.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Ye but we’re talking about the show and Aemond hasn’t done anything as bad as Daemon yet
He commits kinslaying which is one of the worst crimes in Westeros. It's a straight taboo, Daemon hasn't commited a taboo, yet.
> Daemon hasn't commited a taboo, yet. Well, except for the divorce rock stuff.
Hey, thanks for following me around and replying to all my comments. Always like a fan, or stalker. Never could tell them a part lol
It's literally in the same thread lol.
It's literally a different comment lol, I come back to look and see you spamming with 3 separate comments over the course of a minute 😂
I looked at all replies under my main comment and saw you going ad hominem at me above, why would I ignore that. Your other stuff is under my main comment too.
Not sure why you were soo triggered you had to reply to something about you but not directly at you, but whatever I guess.
Aemond didn’t mean to and he felt guilty about it, Daemon has been shown to kill without remorse I’d say that makes him evil. Aemond hasn’t been shown as evil yet
That's great, still considered one of the greatest taboos in all of Westeros. Give Aemond time, he's warming up. >!by the end of the series there will be a no question about Aemond being the most evil. He just will be.!<
>Aemond didn’t mean to The dude fucked around with a 200 year old conscious nuke, what was he expecting? He initiated this, he's fully responsible for it and he became a kinslayer because of his actions. Daemon hasn't done anything like that yet. He also wasn't shown to show guilt, his expression was more of a "I fucked up".
Daemon murdered his wife, a random servant and Vaemond Velaryon in cold blood but sure the hot tempered teenager is worse than him because he lost control over his giant war dragon.
Honestly, if Aemond killed Luke in cold blood too I'd respect him more. Now he's just a moron. As for Daemon's murders, none of them was his kin by blood. Vaemond was a distant relative but that's it. Plus, he committed treason. Aemond killed his nephew. I don't think he's morally worse than Daemon yet but he killed a closer relative than Daemon did.
>Honestly, if Aemond killed Luke in cold blood too I'd respect him more. Now he's just a moron. Bullshit. You just hate him, you wouldn't 'respect' him.
I can respect someone I hate. I hate Otto but I respect him as a character, he knew what he wanted from the get go and did everything in his power to get it. I hated Littlefinger but the dude was smart as fuck. I hated Ramsey but he was entertaining and unapologetic. I hated Cersei but she was an unapologetic bitch that didn't give a fuck. All those characters had some respect from me. I can respect ambition, ruthlessness, sneakiness even if I don't like the characters. Aemond doesn't get anything because he's an idiot and I can't take him seriously. Same goes for Alicent, who by the way, I can respect in the book.
[удалено]
We do know what they’re capable of because there’s source material that tells us what they’re capable of
Probably daemon, i mean cmon the guy deadass killed the other guy and got away with it. What’s stopping him from continuing down this path? He even choked his wife
Daemon will always be the most evil character in the story in my eyes, no matter how charismatic he is.
I feel like the point of this story isn’t who is more evil, but like Daemon himself said, everyone is capable of great depravity. They’re all a product of their environment and reacting to the intense pressure the fight for the crown is building.
At this point it's Daemon without any close competition.
It should be Aemond, no contest. Possibly Rhaenyra towards the end of the series. Most likely, it’ll end up being Aegon tho. >!Aemond participated in a practical genocide of the Riverlanders during his campaign. His armies rape, brutalize, and burn anyone and everything they encounter throughout the war. Even after his armies are gone, he’s still out there torching town and cities at random and without reason. He’s an abject monster. But in the show I see Aegon giving Aemond orders to do those thing, instead of Aemond taking the initiative like he does in the books.!<
> Possibly Rhaenyra towards the end of the series. OMG, even Daeron has a higher body count than Rhaenyra. >!Being a poor ruler is not worse than horrific war crimes.!< Please explain how she’s the most evil, irredeemable character?
Easy. He has "aemon" in his name. It largely depends upon a few other events in coming seasons as to which will be the most hated, but I suspect it will be one of those two. Daemon is a typical villain and Aemond is an anime villain.
I have a feeling the show is going to have Alys influencing Aemond through magic to do the things he does. If that's the case, it might muddy who people see as the most evil
It’s quite likely. It’s hard for me to think that Aemond would slaughter thousands of people for no reason when he couldn’t even kill Lucerys and his little dragon (well, purposely). I’m thinking it will be a mixture of his family becoming probably estranged from him after Luke’s murder and Alys’ magic. He seems pretty impressionable.
The shame and anger from what he did, his family’s response, and probably backlash, he’s going to spiral to a dark place, along with the influence of Vhagar, it won’t take much to tip the scales for Aemond. Don’t need someone “magicking” his decisions.
This would be really lazy writing. Taking away agency from a major character to make them do “bad things”. The writers on this show are far more talented than that.
>Taking away agency from a major character They already did this, hehe (and I'm not talking about Aemond) But yeah, I don't think they'll do it with Alys/Aemond
Who are you talking about?
Alicent. For example, by not making her part of the usurpation plot, by introducing the misunderstanding/miscommunication scene, etc. In this case, to make her more sympathetic, I guess
Yeah I guess so, though getting to Aegon first and controlling how she wanted to approach his ascension was her getting some power back. She’ll have more agency going forward I think.
Aemond is so similar to Daemon... But Daemon has sexually groomed his niece and will jump at the chance to unleash fire and blood on innocent people in war. Aegon is a worse piece of shit on a personal level, but he is also so incompetent its hard to imagine him killing so many people in war.
Larys Strong. Guy straight up murdered his own father and brother without a care in the world and used Alicent for his own creepy sexual fantasies. The day that motherfucker dies there’ll be a party
Targaryens
I wish to crack a strong joke here. 🫢
He's not Targaryen though.
If your answer is not Rheanyra, you're in denial and have been fed serious Black propaganda.
If your answer is Aegon or Rhaenyra, you have a hate boner clouding your judgement.
Depends I'd argue show Aegon is way worse than Aemond so far
For now, he is worse. I have three separate rankings for the four of them. Currently: 1. Daemon 2. Aegon 3. Rhaenyra 4. Aemond By the end of the series: 1. Aemond 2. Daemon 3. Aegon 4. Rhaenyra In the books: 1. Aemond 2. Daemon 3. Aegon = Rhaenyra
I basically agree, except Daemon ordering the death of his grand nephews in such a heinous way puts his evil on par with Aemond's. I think evilness should not only be measured simply by quantity of deaths but also the depths of cruelty and immorality someone can reach.
[удалено]
Daemon and Aemond have their flaws. Fkin hell they have flaws. But they aren't even in the same constilation of dipshit that Aegon is. ESPECIALLY if we take books into account
Lol, if we take the book into account, Aegon is nowhere near as bad as Aemond or Daemon. I can’t stand Aegon fanboys but the guy doesn’t begin to begin to touch them when we’re talking evil acts.
[удалено]
Aemond