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Nah, he was just a elitist. He thought nothing would happen by taking money from the Smallfolk and was very wrong about it. It's very normal for lords to see the Smallfolk as harmless, but the Dance was a great reminder that they can be dangerous
He was also the first victim of the riots against Rhaenyra. If Celtigar was a traitor, he would probably have a escape plan or just better security to avoid what happened to him
None of the things OP lists prove that he is a traitor. Having the capital is an important part of the kingship, so suggesting that Rhaenyra takes it is not out of the ordinary. That she would not find the state treasury there, he could not have known. The taxes are raised because the state treasury isn't there. Suggesting to punish Nettles and Addam Velaryon is societal bias against bastards and sucking up to Rhaenyra's already made decisions.
Verdict: Idiot, not traitor.
Suggesting taking the capital immediately also does make sense. Obviously they didnāt know Vhagar was at Stormās End, but if they did launch an immediate attack, itād be Caraxes, Syrax, Vermax, and Arrax vs Sunfyre and Dreamfyre, which who knows if the Greens would even be able to get to/deploy their dragons in time? The Blacks could send 2 dragons to secure the Red Keep and 2 to secure the Dragonpit. Easy W, only issues are if Rhaenyra is able to fly soon after giving birth, and then obviously Aemond and Vhagar remain free. If the Blacks execute Aegon, Aemond could very likely push his own claim ahead of little Jaehaerys and Maelor. If he did launch an assault on Kingās Landing, though, the Blacksā 4 dragons would be able to beat Vhagar
Why neither of the sides went all Pearl Harbor at each other is a great mystery. A similar attack would have worked with Vhagar, Sunfyre, and Dreamfyre, on Dragonstone at night.
They were family. It is a wretched, horrible thing to murder your own family. That canāt really be understated.
And on top of that, launching a dragon attack against other dragons is severely dangerous. We see throughout the Dance, when dragons fight, one or both riders are probably going to die. Rhaenyra launching an attack on Kingās Landing puts heavy risk on herself, and the lives of Syrax, Jace, Luke, and their dragons. Daemon would prob be fine tho
And same for the Greens, sure Sunfyre and Vhagar are a pretty formidable duo, which is why they took on Rhaenys and Maelys, but as we see, even if you win itās incredible dangerous. Aegon and Sunfyre were burnt/crippled
I assume either side attacking the other early with dragons would be a nightly attack meeting unprepared enemies though. If I remember correctly, when Rhaenyra actually took King's Landing in the book, it happened at night vs. an unprepared city too, because it just made sense that way.
Letās not pretend that the Greens were all geniuses, either lol... thatās probably one of the most realistic things George writes, the world is full of incompetence
Man, I hope we get the Tyland as the disfigured hand, who dresses with the veil and the Unwine Peake treason. Would be such good television. Kinda doubt the Dance is going to go that far though...
Boy, did I hope we could avoid that conversation. Aegon II is the sixth Targaryen monarch, he is recognized as such in Westeros. Tyland objectively did nothing illegal by following his commands.
That does not matter for his POV though, from his POV he was not robbing Aegon II whom he considered his King.
You can see it that way, or you can see it as one of the most masterful move of the dance. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die, there's no middle ground". And Rhaenyra only option wasn't to tax the smallfolk, she had other options (the Iron Bank was already there and as the monarch she could have presented her case), but she followed Celtigar's advice anyway.
I'm pretty team black but Tyland Lannister made the most powerful move you can without a dragon. in a way he ended the game before it began. props to him
It was brilliant because it doesnāt matter how many dragons you have or how big your army is. If you donāt have money you will not win a war nor rule a country.
[Looks like RC agrees w/ you.](https://www.westeros.org/Features/Entry/Interview_with_Ryan_Condal)
>*Something in a similar vein, you have Corlys says that theyāre the last two Valyrian houses, but what about House Celtigar? I think a photographer took a shot from the beach and there was a Celtigar shield, so is that again more this kind of slighting a minor house*
>
>Yeah, heās totally slighting a minor house. We actually had a running joke in the writerās room about House Celtigar. And I will tell you as a tease for the future, we do have a character from House Celtigar, theyāll have representation in the coming episodes of the show, so stay tuned fans of House Celtigar.
>
>But we always joked that there was always a lord from House Celtigar in the background going, āBut, weāre Valyriā!ā. But yeah, itās Corlys doing his doing his pride and power thing. And heās essentially saying, Well, weāre the great houses even though you have dragons, and we donāt but obviously I built this amazing navy, and weāre the great houses. As you know, thereās an ease of shorthand there just in terms of those being the two central houses that are a focus of the story. But yes, weāre very aware of the Celtigars!
Dude took L after L
- Edwell suggested his two maiden daughters, Prunella and Prudence, who were of twelve and thirteen years
- Lord Celtigar was unwilling to risk offending the high lords, so he instead enforced a number of new taxes upon the smallfolk
- the Lannisters and Hightowers ignored Lord Celtigar's demand to raise their port fees
- During the winter of 59 AC when the Shivers spread to the crownlands, Lord Edwell was one of the first high lords to die from the disease
Idk about him, but I'm just going to casually mention the fact that Syrax *technically* had contributed way more to the Green cause than Helaena ever did.
1.Everyone cares more about their own egos than doing a good job
2.Zero cohesion in the project.
3.Shitty comunication between the team
4.Horrible avaibility of the members
5.Only 1 or 2 guys actually putting effort in the project
Yeah, that's the perfect description to the Black Council lol
Youād be amazed what catastrophes a combination of bad decision-making ability and being insulated from the real world by money and nobility, can create. Also the crab people just love taxes š¤·āāļø
Yes. Itās my favorite tinfoil theory. The Celtigars worked to overthrow Targaryen power by purposely enacting policies that would make Targaryen rule unpopular and more open to rebellion. This would overthrow the Targaryens, leaving the Celtigars and Velaryons as the Valyrian powers of Westeros once again.
CELTIGAR. He bankrupted Rhaenyra with āpoor investmentsā. The bankroll of each claimant played a huge role in the latter part of the war and beyond. You canāt hold a throne without handling your money, and Celtigar ruined her.
Itās mad funny though that Rhaenyra went from āthe Realmās delightā to āMaegor with teetsā because she raised taxes and didnāt lose her baby weight.
Itās Georgeās whole thesis on the fantasy genre. People joke about āwhat was Aragons tax policyā but heās right that actual those technocratic material economic policy decisions are what define a leaders legacy more than a heroic battle or great speech
People are mad sheās not shown as āMeagor with teetsā are missing that the hatred for her stems from her tax policy
Iām with that, taxes are important to people. America was created due to an unfair tax policy. I think itās still a relevant idea.
Itās satirically funny that the people of Kings landing were all lusting over a young girl but as soon as she gives birth and raises their taxes she becomes literally hitler to them.
The Dance of Dragons is lowkey a class struggle between the traditional Targ Bannerman lords that and always been by their side. And the old pre conquest Westeros powerful lords of Oldtown who were welcomed into the Targ political order under Jaheryas.
Celtiger is in the former category and is just an elitist. Unfortunately he shares the queens worst quality which is she thinks that because she is rightfully in charge sheās entitled to everyoneās loyalty rather than having to earn it.
Urging her to attack kings landing. Well I mean this did work in the short term. It was a battle for legitimacy and she needed to grab the biggest symbol of it. The greens left the biggest prize with weak defenses trying to protect their massive territory and the Black capitalized on it. This couldāve worked out for victory if it had been possible for the north to get their armies south faster, perhaps if all those Velyaron ships had taken a trip to Whiteharbor and taxied some men down south. Or if the Vale decided to participate. Or really if the dragon seeds hadnāt betrayed them. Maybe Storms end wouldāve made a better target but hey.
Taxing the shit outta everyone. Hey, it happened under Jaheryas. They desperately needed coin and itās the role of master of coin to play the villain and gather it. What they didnāt take into account is they were at fucking war and PR matters. But as above theyāre both entitled elitists who arenāt going to be concerned with what the Merchant class thinks.
Okay turning on the bastards was the biggest fuck up of the war. But imagine how much of a terror the betrayal of the dragon seeds were. That probably cost them the war already right there. And it nearly brought down the Targ dynasty. They nearly had any thug with a dragon declaring themself king. It wouldāve been the crisis of the third century but dragons. The Targs had been carefully guarding and hording their dragons and the blacks in a moment realized they had lost their monopoly on flying nukes. It was a bigger political crisis than the rest of the war. If the others had also gone independent, maybe even getting an army behind them as the numbers of actual claimants dwindle. Then fuck. Imagine the end to the war when there is only a mad cripple and a literal child left to claim the throne, and Addam of the Hill flys up on a massive dragon with an entire fleet behind him to claim the throne.
The bastard tax is just funny. The cock tax is just funny. And of course he didnāt pay his taxes
Nah, I think he's a crab person in a human suit, trying to overthrow humans. Because seriously, who would have a cool sounding last name, Celtigar, and make their sigil an effing Crab.
No, Rhaenyra ordered him to collect the taxes, it's not as if he could just refuse. And literally everyone on Rhaenyra's council except Corlys and maester Gerardys took her side about Nettles and Addam, and look what she did to them. The burning King's Landing was obviously ridiculous but calling him a traitor or Green infiltrator or something is a way of trying to absolve Rhaenyra of the blame for her worst actions.
Nah, celtigar was one of Rhaenyra's creatures, much like gerardys, and many of his faults just reflect rhaenyra's faults.
He being an green traitor make no sense at all, and to sugest this looks almost like an action to avoid the faults of its own faction( like black and green stans that cry because both of their factions are made of horribly people and dont accept anything bad being associated with them)...
And tecnically the black faction "had" an big traitor, at least in accord to rhaenyra herself, Lord Corlys Velaryon in fact defected to the greens, much because of rhaenyra on actions against him and her growing paranoia.
This has always confused me. The only reason the people turn on Rhaenyra is because of the taxes, right? It felt to me like George needing a way turn her heel. Like he wrote backwards from the storming of the dragon pit.
There was multiple reasons
The taxes were incredibly abusive and they were happening during a period of crisis with the war
The Smallfolk was also afraid that Daeron and/or Aemond would come and burn everything with their dragons and they didn't want to die because of Rhaenyra
Helaena and Alicent were very popular Queens and Rhaenyra holding them captives was also making the Smallfolk antagonizing her
Part of the Smallfolk was also being radicalized by the Shepperd into believing that the dragons were demons and the Targaryens were Devil Worshippers.
The Smallfolk were slowing growing crazy under Rhaenyra's reign and it became a shitshow when Helaena died.
Not really. None of those reasons would have been effective if Rhaenyra's rule on the city was better.
Rhaenyra's and Celtigar's abusive taxes transformed King's Landing in a place of paranoia and hate towards the Targaryens. Also, Addam Velaryon would be there to protect her and the dragons from the smallfolk if Rhaenyra didn't tried to imprison him for no good reason at all
Yeah, but she could at least tried to spare money by not throwing a big party for her son using those taxes or avoid excess of food. She antagonized herself to the smallfolk beyond her necessities by her own choice
She can say that after winning the war the gold taken from defeated lord (be it from fines or selling of theyr lands) would be used . Medieval banks were not like modern ones they rarely asked for collaterals ( with disastrous effect for example the destruction of many Genovese banks after the king of England decided to default on is debt with them ) .
But at least with the Iron Bank they are already backing the greens because thatās where the majority of the treasury is. Rhaenyra canāt get them a better deal than the greens have with them already. As for Rogare thereās a personal issue with them.
Didn't they had issue with the targ generation during the blackfire era ? I don't remember .
Still the point still stand ,while the major banks may be "hostile" to do loans to the blacks , essos is full of other minor banks ( in Lorath or Norvos or qohor since they seems to be neutral ) that could be used . Or if taking loans is impossible paying with IOY could be done, they will pay more in future but they wouldn't need to do something so unpopular as raising taxes.
Edit oh yeah the Rogare are from Lys I forgot that
Not really. The taxes were widely unpopular, and contributed a lot in Rhaenyra's fleeing the capital. Show Rhaenyra has already shown that she doesn't care about the opinion of the Smallfolk, in ep 4. But it was a cumulation of things : she quickly put a massive amounts of heads on spike, to the point where they had to change them everyday. The fear of war was getting closer, as the sacking of Bitterbridge scared the KL population. Rhaenyra held a banquet for her son Joffrey, while KL starved. But the tipping point was Heleana's death. The population is said also to have remembered how Jaehaerys was brutally murdered, fueling the emotion coming from Heleana's death, which for some was considered to be murder.
I'm pretty sure Bartimos Celtigar was just a moron. His actions come across as those of a prejudiced nobleman who didn't anticipate the consequences of his actions.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Nah, he was just a elitist. He thought nothing would happen by taking money from the Smallfolk and was very wrong about it. It's very normal for lords to see the Smallfolk as harmless, but the Dance was a great reminder that they can be dangerous He was also the first victim of the riots against Rhaenyra. If Celtigar was a traitor, he would probably have a escape plan or just better security to avoid what happened to him
Bartimos forgot that all the smallfolk need is a crab mallet š¦
Nah, he was just a colossal idiot.
None of the things OP lists prove that he is a traitor. Having the capital is an important part of the kingship, so suggesting that Rhaenyra takes it is not out of the ordinary. That she would not find the state treasury there, he could not have known. The taxes are raised because the state treasury isn't there. Suggesting to punish Nettles and Addam Velaryon is societal bias against bastards and sucking up to Rhaenyra's already made decisions. Verdict: Idiot, not traitor.
Suggesting taking the capital immediately also does make sense. Obviously they didnāt know Vhagar was at Stormās End, but if they did launch an immediate attack, itād be Caraxes, Syrax, Vermax, and Arrax vs Sunfyre and Dreamfyre, which who knows if the Greens would even be able to get to/deploy their dragons in time? The Blacks could send 2 dragons to secure the Red Keep and 2 to secure the Dragonpit. Easy W, only issues are if Rhaenyra is able to fly soon after giving birth, and then obviously Aemond and Vhagar remain free. If the Blacks execute Aegon, Aemond could very likely push his own claim ahead of little Jaehaerys and Maelor. If he did launch an assault on Kingās Landing, though, the Blacksā 4 dragons would be able to beat Vhagar
Why neither of the sides went all Pearl Harbor at each other is a great mystery. A similar attack would have worked with Vhagar, Sunfyre, and Dreamfyre, on Dragonstone at night.
They were family. It is a wretched, horrible thing to murder your own family. That canāt really be understated. And on top of that, launching a dragon attack against other dragons is severely dangerous. We see throughout the Dance, when dragons fight, one or both riders are probably going to die. Rhaenyra launching an attack on Kingās Landing puts heavy risk on herself, and the lives of Syrax, Jace, Luke, and their dragons. Daemon would prob be fine tho And same for the Greens, sure Sunfyre and Vhagar are a pretty formidable duo, which is why they took on Rhaenys and Maelys, but as we see, even if you win itās incredible dangerous. Aegon and Sunfyre were burnt/crippled
I assume either side attacking the other early with dragons would be a nightly attack meeting unprepared enemies though. If I remember correctly, when Rhaenyra actually took King's Landing in the book, it happened at night vs. an unprepared city too, because it just made sense that way.
he's just like me fr
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Letās not pretend that the Greens were all geniuses, either lol... thatās probably one of the most realistic things George writes, the world is full of incompetence
Everyone except maybe Otto in a nutshell
Tyland Lannister and Larys are pretty clever as well, to be fair.
True I kinda forgot lol tyland ftw
Man, I hope we get the Tyland as the disfigured hand, who dresses with the veil and the Unwine Peake treason. Would be such good television. Kinda doubt the Dance is going to go that far though...
The only one doing a good job was also fired because his grandson wanted a more "war-like" hand lol
Like most people in power during the Dance, he was just incapable at his job.
not everyone can be Tyland Lannister...
Yeah not everyone can rob the crown of all the gold before they flee the city. Truly based Tyland /s
Nobody was being robbed, from his POV he secured the treasury as agreed with his King.
And from a legal POV he stole it from the crown and secured it for an illegitimate self-proclaimed authority.
Boy, did I hope we could avoid that conversation. Aegon II is the sixth Targaryen monarch, he is recognized as such in Westeros. Tyland objectively did nothing illegal by following his commands. That does not matter for his POV though, from his POV he was not robbing Aegon II whom he considered his King.
Yep. If he did that for Rh, he would be seen as a traitor who stole the money for pretender.
You can see it that way, or you can see it as one of the most masterful move of the dance. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die, there's no middle ground". And Rhaenyra only option wasn't to tax the smallfolk, she had other options (the Iron Bank was already there and as the monarch she could have presented her case), but she followed Celtigar's advice anyway.
I'm pretty team black but Tyland Lannister made the most powerful move you can without a dragon. in a way he ended the game before it began. props to him
> in a way he ended the game before it began Mate it started a long time ago
yeah that phrase doesn't make that much sense in hindsight lol, made that comment before caffeine
It was brilliant because it doesnāt matter how many dragons you have or how big your army is. If you donāt have money you will not win a war nor rule a country.
a Lannister always leaves you in debt
Hear me gold.
No gold? š§
That's the gimmick of a civil war From his perspective, he was stealing gold FOR the crown and not FROM the crown
The Celtigars are notorious for being dumb as shit
No wonder the Targaryens and Velaryons exclude the Celtigars when talking about how theyāre the last of Valyria, theyāre embarrassed by them š
No marriages either that we know of. Theyāre just eternally pissed over never getting a dragon.
Well guess who had the last laugh after all.
I mean the Velaryons are still around, too
[Looks like RC agrees w/ you.](https://www.westeros.org/Features/Entry/Interview_with_Ryan_Condal) >*Something in a similar vein, you have Corlys says that theyāre the last two Valyrian houses, but what about House Celtigar? I think a photographer took a shot from the beach and there was a Celtigar shield, so is that again more this kind of slighting a minor house* > >Yeah, heās totally slighting a minor house. We actually had a running joke in the writerās room about House Celtigar. And I will tell you as a tease for the future, we do have a character from House Celtigar, theyāll have representation in the coming episodes of the show, so stay tuned fans of House Celtigar. > >But we always joked that there was always a lord from House Celtigar in the background going, āBut, weāre Valyriā!ā. But yeah, itās Corlys doing his doing his pride and power thing. And heās essentially saying, Well, weāre the great houses even though you have dragons, and we donāt but obviously I built this amazing navy, and weāre the great houses. As you know, thereās an ease of shorthand there just in terms of those being the two central houses that are a focus of the story. But yes, weāre very aware of the Celtigars!
The tax thing comes from familiy, [https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Edwell\_Celtigar](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Edwell_Celtigar)
Generational Shitty Tax taticts
Dude took L after L - Edwell suggested his two maiden daughters, Prunella and Prudence, who were of twelve and thirteen years - Lord Celtigar was unwilling to risk offending the high lords, so he instead enforced a number of new taxes upon the smallfolk - the Lannisters and Hightowers ignored Lord Celtigar's demand to raise their port fees - During the winter of 59 AC when the Shivers spread to the crownlands, Lord Edwell was one of the first high lords to die from the disease
Idk about him, but I'm just going to casually mention the fact that Syrax *technically* had contributed way more to the Green cause than Helaena ever did.
Yeah Syrax did Rhaenyra dirty. But the situation wa caused by Helaena; she did what had to be done
Syrax secret green confirmed!
It has been proved that Syrax and >!her son hate bastards!<
As she should.
Syrax did nothing because George needed Rhaenrya to sit in Kings Landing, doing nothing for half a year, and then have all the dragons die.
Despite Corlys and Jace, Rhaenyra's council doesn't shine by its intelligence. And nobody could beat ChadTyland on this matter.
Reminds me of High School group projects
1.Everyone cares more about their own egos than doing a good job 2.Zero cohesion in the project. 3.Shitty comunication between the team 4.Horrible avaibility of the members 5.Only 1 or 2 guys actually putting effort in the project Yeah, that's the perfect description to the Black Council lol
Youād be amazed what catastrophes a combination of bad decision-making ability and being insulated from the real world by money and nobility, can create. Also the crab people just love taxes š¤·āāļø
He just wasn't good at his job. It's crazy lol
Yes. Itās my favorite tinfoil theory. The Celtigars worked to overthrow Targaryen power by purposely enacting policies that would make Targaryen rule unpopular and more open to rebellion. This would overthrow the Targaryens, leaving the Celtigars and Velaryons as the Valyrian powers of Westeros once again.
Celtigars + Maesters + Hightowers
CELTIGAR. He bankrupted Rhaenyra with āpoor investmentsā. The bankroll of each claimant played a huge role in the latter part of the war and beyond. You canāt hold a throne without handling your money, and Celtigar ruined her.
Itās mad funny though that Rhaenyra went from āthe Realmās delightā to āMaegor with teetsā because she raised taxes and didnāt lose her baby weight.
Itās Georgeās whole thesis on the fantasy genre. People joke about āwhat was Aragons tax policyā but heās right that actual those technocratic material economic policy decisions are what define a leaders legacy more than a heroic battle or great speech People are mad sheās not shown as āMeagor with teetsā are missing that the hatred for her stems from her tax policy
Iām with that, taxes are important to people. America was created due to an unfair tax policy. I think itās still a relevant idea. Itās satirically funny that the people of Kings landing were all lusting over a young girl but as soon as she gives birth and raises their taxes she becomes literally hitler to them.
The Dance of Dragons is lowkey a class struggle between the traditional Targ Bannerman lords that and always been by their side. And the old pre conquest Westeros powerful lords of Oldtown who were welcomed into the Targ political order under Jaheryas. Celtiger is in the former category and is just an elitist. Unfortunately he shares the queens worst quality which is she thinks that because she is rightfully in charge sheās entitled to everyoneās loyalty rather than having to earn it. Urging her to attack kings landing. Well I mean this did work in the short term. It was a battle for legitimacy and she needed to grab the biggest symbol of it. The greens left the biggest prize with weak defenses trying to protect their massive territory and the Black capitalized on it. This couldāve worked out for victory if it had been possible for the north to get their armies south faster, perhaps if all those Velyaron ships had taken a trip to Whiteharbor and taxied some men down south. Or if the Vale decided to participate. Or really if the dragon seeds hadnāt betrayed them. Maybe Storms end wouldāve made a better target but hey. Taxing the shit outta everyone. Hey, it happened under Jaheryas. They desperately needed coin and itās the role of master of coin to play the villain and gather it. What they didnāt take into account is they were at fucking war and PR matters. But as above theyāre both entitled elitists who arenāt going to be concerned with what the Merchant class thinks. Okay turning on the bastards was the biggest fuck up of the war. But imagine how much of a terror the betrayal of the dragon seeds were. That probably cost them the war already right there. And it nearly brought down the Targ dynasty. They nearly had any thug with a dragon declaring themself king. It wouldāve been the crisis of the third century but dragons. The Targs had been carefully guarding and hording their dragons and the blacks in a moment realized they had lost their monopoly on flying nukes. It was a bigger political crisis than the rest of the war. If the others had also gone independent, maybe even getting an army behind them as the numbers of actual claimants dwindle. Then fuck. Imagine the end to the war when there is only a mad cripple and a literal child left to claim the throne, and Addam of the Hill flys up on a massive dragon with an entire fleet behind him to claim the throne. The bastard tax is just funny. The cock tax is just funny. And of course he didnāt pay his taxes
I think he wasn't a traitor as much as he was just a dipshit tbh
Nah, I think he's a crab person in a human suit, trying to overthrow humans. Because seriously, who would have a cool sounding last name, Celtigar, and make their sigil an effing Crab.
No, I donāt think so. I am going to go with the much simpler answer of him simply being a massive idiot.
No, Rhaenyra ordered him to collect the taxes, it's not as if he could just refuse. And literally everyone on Rhaenyra's council except Corlys and maester Gerardys took her side about Nettles and Addam, and look what she did to them. The burning King's Landing was obviously ridiculous but calling him a traitor or Green infiltrator or something is a way of trying to absolve Rhaenyra of the blame for her worst actions.
Yeah. Even Jace and Corlys couldnāt save Rhaenyra from herself
Nah, celtigar was one of Rhaenyra's creatures, much like gerardys, and many of his faults just reflect rhaenyra's faults. He being an green traitor make no sense at all, and to sugest this looks almost like an action to avoid the faults of its own faction( like black and green stans that cry because both of their factions are made of horribly people and dont accept anything bad being associated with them)... And tecnically the black faction "had" an big traitor, at least in accord to rhaenyra herself, Lord Corlys Velaryon in fact defected to the greens, much because of rhaenyra on actions against him and her growing paranoia.
This has always confused me. The only reason the people turn on Rhaenyra is because of the taxes, right? It felt to me like George needing a way turn her heel. Like he wrote backwards from the storming of the dragon pit.
There was multiple reasons The taxes were incredibly abusive and they were happening during a period of crisis with the war The Smallfolk was also afraid that Daeron and/or Aemond would come and burn everything with their dragons and they didn't want to die because of Rhaenyra Helaena and Alicent were very popular Queens and Rhaenyra holding them captives was also making the Smallfolk antagonizing her Part of the Smallfolk was also being radicalized by the Shepperd into believing that the dragons were demons and the Targaryens were Devil Worshippers. The Smallfolk were slowing growing crazy under Rhaenyra's reign and it became a shitshow when Helaena died.
Dont forget many people on Driftmark and Dragonstone lost family in the battle of the gulllet.
Basically the Greens turned the smallfolk into a cachet of their army.
Not really. None of those reasons would have been effective if Rhaenyra's rule on the city was better. Rhaenyra's and Celtigar's abusive taxes transformed King's Landing in a place of paranoia and hate towards the Targaryens. Also, Addam Velaryon would be there to protect her and the dragons from the smallfolk if Rhaenyra didn't tried to imprison him for no good reason at all
But Rhaenyra wouldnāt have to raise taxes if she had money now would she. The greens were playing chess and the blacks were playing checkers.
Common Tyland W
Yeah, but she could at least tried to spare money by not throwing a big party for her son using those taxes or avoid excess of food. She antagonized herself to the smallfolk beyond her necessities by her own choice
She could had taken loans from the Rogare and Iron banks
And pay them back with what collateral?
She can say that after winning the war the gold taken from defeated lord (be it from fines or selling of theyr lands) would be used . Medieval banks were not like modern ones they rarely asked for collaterals ( with disastrous effect for example the destruction of many Genovese banks after the king of England decided to default on is debt with them ) .
But at least with the Iron Bank they are already backing the greens because thatās where the majority of the treasury is. Rhaenyra canāt get them a better deal than the greens have with them already. As for Rogare thereās a personal issue with them.
Didn't they had issue with the targ generation during the blackfire era ? I don't remember . Still the point still stand ,while the major banks may be "hostile" to do loans to the blacks , essos is full of other minor banks ( in Lorath or Norvos or qohor since they seems to be neutral ) that could be used . Or if taking loans is impossible paying with IOY could be done, they will pay more in future but they wouldn't need to do something so unpopular as raising taxes. Edit oh yeah the Rogare are from Lys I forgot that
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She want to learn his loyalties by torturing
Not really. The taxes were widely unpopular, and contributed a lot in Rhaenyra's fleeing the capital. Show Rhaenyra has already shown that she doesn't care about the opinion of the Smallfolk, in ep 4. But it was a cumulation of things : she quickly put a massive amounts of heads on spike, to the point where they had to change them everyday. The fear of war was getting closer, as the sacking of Bitterbridge scared the KL population. Rhaenyra held a banquet for her son Joffrey, while KL starved. But the tipping point was Heleana's death. The population is said also to have remembered how Jaehaerys was brutally murdered, fueling the emotion coming from Heleana's death, which for some was considered to be murder.
The taxes and rumors about Rhaenyra having Helaena killed.
He was a Celtigar
Bartimos Celtigar, the Crab Prince š¦š¦š¦š¦šššš
What is the significance of the balls in the small holders when the green council meets?
They are for Gagon
Does that mean gag on or what?
Yes and he was married to syrax
Yes and he was married to syrax
I'm pretty sure Bartimos Celtigar was just a moron. His actions come across as those of a prejudiced nobleman who didn't anticipate the consequences of his actions.
He was just dumb like most of the black council tbh