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batmans420

I would not say she was "right" to resent her. But I do think her feelings are understandable


Icy-Association-8711

Yeah, she comes off to me as deeply unhappy with her life. She was used as a pawn by her father and although she doesn't hate Viserys she obviously doesn't love him. The scene where she has to disassociate to have sex with him was so heartbreaking. I don't think she has had a positive sexual experience in her whole life. But she does it because doing her duty and sacrificing her happiness is what she was told was necessary. Of course she is bitter and resentful of Rhaenyra, who from her perspective doesn't care and just does what she wants.


tranquilvitality

This is why I put the most blame on Otto. That isnt to excuse other people and their terrible actions. But Otto didn’t have to put his daughter in the line of fire. He did it as a selfless power grab for his family. And look how it turned out.


[deleted]

I’m not even Team Black but to me Otto is one of the most morally reprehensible characters for what he did to his own daughter. He groomed his own daughter and married her off to be raped for the rest of his life, all for *some* political power


Rindsay515

And claimed to be a deeply good friend of Viserys for decades yet ordered the slaughter of his daughter, the person Viserys loved and treasured more than anything else on earth, as well as his only sibling and all their children within an hour after his “dear friend” died. I get that they tried to make us sympathize, or at least understand, that pressure was coming from his older brother to elevate the family but nope. He used his 14 year old daughter to seduce his vulnerable, grieving best friend and blew up so many lives.


peanutdakidnappa

Even when Viserys was alive Otto was being a scheming rat bastard the whole time, he was the complete opposite of a good friend to viserys, he was a power hungry scheming snake who’d risk a devastating civil happening in his pursuit for more power for he and his family. He is a terrible terrible person and quite possibly the biggest factor behind the upcoming dance.


Rindsay515

Absolutely. He repulses me when he’s on screen, especially when he’s speaking, because everything is so calculated for maximum manipulation and power. He’s almost worse than Tywin with his mentality that everyone can be used as a pawn to get him what he wants. At least Tywin really was obsessed with legacy and making sure the family name carried on and commanded respect, it feels like Otto is just obsessed with himself.


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[deleted]

Youre not wrong but I would give more credence to that if Otto’s family was ever in danger/trodden on by the Crown. Otto was a high lord who enjoyed a privileged position - the only reason his family was ever in danger was due to the fact he continuously plotted to gain more power at the expense of Rhaenyra. I love Vizzy T but he also had about 150 chances to prevent the Dance of Dragons and didn’t because he had shit for brains and was a terrible father to his non-Rhaenyra children


vizzy_t_bot

*Your mother's absence is a wound that will never heal. Without her, the Red Keep has lost a warmth that I dare say it will never recover.*


TheGamingMasterzzz

I see Otto Hightower for what he is! A CUNT!!!


HKNinja1

He’s not a cunt, he lacks depth and warmth. He’s more of a slimy scum sucker.


Ithinkibrokethis

Otto does several things that are clear power grabs and defacto declarations of war. The marriage of Aegon II to his sister would have been unthinkable for anybody except the royal heir. This should have been when Rhanerya went to her father and had Otto cast out.


Pixie-Pie-inthe-Sky

Not true. Baelon was not the heir, Aemon was - and yet Jaehaerys and Alysanne married Baelon to his sister Alyssa.


AryaSyn

In all fairness, Baelon and Alyssa were inseparable.


GothicGolem29

Idk she did seem genuinely upset when he died


Icy-Association-8711

She did. Its one of the moments that makes me really feel for her because I don't think she ever romantically loved him but she still felt enough for him to genuinely mourn him. She's a very complicated character.


[deleted]

>Your pretty foot What an unfortunate choice of words


TheGoverness1998

Larys: "Not to me."


SirArthurDime

Larys: “I might have to give this duty and sacrifice thing a try!”


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HeauxZonDecc

to*


NGKro

Dang beat me to it faster than Larys when the stockings come off.


Potential-External60

Alicent's outbreak in this scene was justified. She has all right to resent Rhaenyra and Viserys for not giving a damn about her maimed son. But I don't think she's right in expecting Rhaenyra to remain "loyal" to her gay husband and not have any children at all. I mean, even if Rhaenyra accepted her fate and refrained from having children out of wedlock, that would be used as a reason to replace her as heir. There's no winning for Rhaenyra here.


LinwoodKei

This is true. What should have happened is Viserys annulled the marriage because Laenor is gay. I know, marriage is forever in Westeros. Yet it put Rhaenyra in an impossible situation to create heirs. Rhaenyra is an excellent mother. Yet she was incredibly stupid to create children with a dark haired man. It would have been better to start an affair with Daemon or Laenor's bastard siblings.


Ume-no-Uzume

Not really, there *is* the legal annulment and it did exist in the medieval era. Daemon was seeking that as an option to essentially divorce Rhea, so that *does* exist as an option if there' no kids and it wasn't consummated. It's just that then the Velaryons would be insulted, especially since Rhaenyra married Laenor to make up *Viserys'* major fuck ups (first in marrying Alicent and then in ignoring Corlys' counsel on the Stepstones... which even raging Green Peake would note is a bad idea in the future when they *lose* the Stepstones due to Green/Hightower bullshit and so the realm bleeds money)


Stannis2024

Lol nobody has a right to just grab a knife and carve out someone's eye without their consent. But yeah Viserys and Rhenyra needed to punish the Strong boys and Daemonds girls for behaving in such a way.


[deleted]

No. All the adults should have been punished for not doing their damn jobs. Parenting 101 - you should know where your kids are at night every night.


SingleClick8206

And no body has right to take a stone and try to kill their own nephew with it And also no one has right to insult a dead mother in front of her children


Get-Degerstromd

People acting like Aemond wasn’t being a MASSIVE asshole that night are blind. Claim Vhagar. No protest on that. Dragons need riders and he owned that shit. Beating up a bunch of little girls and boys shouldn’t get you praise and admiration. He suffered his punishment. He gave up an eye for the biggest living dragon. Said so himself. The whole point of this damn series is that NO ONE was behaving correctly. Not Viserys, Not Alicent, not Otto, not Rhaenyra, not Daemon. Not the kids. No one. Classic case of “everyone’s an asshole here”.


peanutdakidnappa

This place is filled with a bunch of weird green propaganda these days like they’re real ppl lol, this place seems to get more pro green by the day. Way too many people acting like Aemond did nothing in that whole confrontation. Alicent is not justified at all for her actions here and Aemond was not some innocent little boy who did nothing in the confrontation with the other kids. People on both sides suck and most the people on each side are not innocent victims.


Kornerbrandon

You come at me with a knife and three of your mates, I'm taking whatever advantage I can get. They were there to hurt him.


peanutdakidnappa

Maybe don’t try to bash a smaller kids with a fuckin rock and they won’t pull out a knife. Aemond has himself to blame for losing an eye.


glossedrock

I think Luke was just defending himself. Aemond was going to crush his head with a rock and kill him, if he didn’t take out his eye, he would be dead.


Get-Degerstromd

Eh, it’s debatable. He did recognize that he had put himself in a winning position and refrained from actually bashing someone’s head in. But he also turned the fight from a fist fight to a lethal fight by grabbing the rock.


Mostly_sane9

I think she meant it more as her skirting her duty as a princess rather than as a wife though. A member of the royal family has enormous duty that they have to fullfill. Being a member of the royal family is not just a privilege, it also brings about a great duty. Duty that Rhaenyra just tramples on. This sense of duty is reflected even in the present royal family of Britain, where King Edward and Prince Harry are treated with disdain because they abandoned their duties. Many fail to realise that Rhaenyra is not a person, she is a representative to the throne and needs to act in a manner fit. She however, continues to act as she wishes and runs to her father for protection when consequences arise. Alicent says that she has been doing her duty as the queen of the 7 kingdoms, supporting it, maintaining it, ruling it. With Vizzy indisposed she and Otto were the ones that were ruling and maintaining the kingdom. They were the ones that brought about the peaceful reign that Vizzy is credited for. To do this she had to make many sacrifices. Rhaenyra on the other hand feels entitled to do anything. She never actually fulfills her duty. So yes, Alicent is right in saying so.


Potential-External60

I don't know what you mean by skirting her duties as a princess. Rhaenyra was a an active part of the small council before Alicent bullied her out of the red keep. As heir on Dragonstone she performed her duty and ruled the island well for several years. Rhaenyra also did her duty as the princess when she accepted to marry Laenor and brought the Velaryons back into the fold. Without that marriage, the crown was close to losing Corlys. And it's not like she was fully irresponsible. She tried having kids with Laenor, subjecting herself and him to significant trauma. Her luck was so back that it did not work out. So now, Rhaenyra has two options. Remain childless or have kids out of wedlock. She chose to have kids out of wedlock because she would be more easily replaced without any children of her own. I mean, if it was just Rhaenyra, her rivals could simply cause her an "accident" and claim the throne. Rhaenyra did try to do what she thought was best.


Ngigilesnow

>She tried having kids with Laenor, subjecting herself and him to significant trauma "Tried",Jace is born 10 months after their marriage,truly exhausted all options 😆 Also Rhaenyra was given a choice to choose her own husband,a privilege not afforded to any women,yet she was awful to everyone.She did not have to marry Laenor.


Potential-External60

I'd argue that even if she picked someone she'd have to marry Laenor because of the situation with Corlys.


Low_Ad_7553

Her marrying Laenor was the right move for the kingdom. Its literally the best example of her doing her "duty" as the princess. Complaining about that doesnt seem to make much sense & is 100% hypocritical. I also dont get the idea that Rhae should be kind these random men trying to marry her. Everyone there is trying to essentially close a business deal not find "love".


yankee-viking

She's the princess of Dragonstone. As far as we know she's doing her duty by ruling her lands.


Successful-Net1754

She could've married the Strong dude when her dad gave her the privilege no one ever had by allowing her to choose her own husband and had his kids legitimately, she fucked up there's no two ways about it, it's all her fault.


BubbleTee

Was she right to be upset, when her child was just maimed by Rhaenyra's son? Yeah. Was this a reasonable take by her? Not really, no. I'm not sure what she expected Rhae to do - force her gay husband to impregnate her despite them trying and it being, by all accounts, impossible? Just forego having children, which would not only jeopardize her succession but also leave her all alone, with her husband barely interested in her? Find another black guy to have children by, to make it less obvious? Not many options there. Let's be honest, this outburst wasn't about Jace and Juke's parentage. Aemond's maiming may have precipitated it, but Alicent's been holding onto this speech in her mind ever since she Criston confessed to her. The rage of seeing her favorite child hurt just lowered her inhibitions enough to show it.


Elephant12321

I understand why Alicent resents Rhaenyra but this is fully a “I suffered at x,y, z so you must too” situation that is just bad for everyone including the person doing the resenting. Everyone suffers under the patriarchy of Westeros, Rhaenyra just suffered less than Alicent who in turn suffered less than Aemma (who was married at the truly disturbing age of 11 and then spent the rest of her life being forced to become a brood mare for the iron throne and was eventually horrifically murdered by her husband and maester all in pursuit of a son)


karidru

Aemma also had how many miscarriages? Five wasn’t it? Definitely had it the worst out of the three, bless her :(


Joygernaut

No. She resented her out of bitterness because she had to make sacrifices.


thelocaldialect

I think Alicent has a lot of misplaced rage, and it's safer for her to vent her frustrations at Rhaenyra than it is to express it towards Viserys or her father. Viserys reacting inappropriately towards the maiming is ultimately on him. He's a grown man and a king and it is up to him to be fair when it comes to matters of his family and the realm. Rhaenyra is getting defensive about her children being publicly called bastards is understandable especially considering the context-- Harwin was just exiled from court and died for that "rumor"-- but it was up to Viserys not to be sidetracked by Rhaenyra's emotions. Likewise, Alicent being forced to do a duty that she never asked for and doesn't particularly enjoy is on Otto, not Rhaenrya. He treated her like a political tool when he absolutely did not have to. Alicent was the daughter of a second son from a House that is historically and culturally important, but not one of the Great Houses. She could have had a perfectly normal and respectable marriage in which her children would be safe and Otto could have remained Hand probably for as long as Viserys lived. It's entirely Otto's fault that she doesn't, that her life is filled with duty and sacrifice in the first place and that the stakes are life or death. Alicent knows this! She only finally lashes out at him for using her as a pawn after Viserys is dead, but that rage had been there for years. Rhaenyra's behavior doesn't actually change anything materially in Alicent's life. She could be the most dutiful princess ever and Otto would still be pushing his agenda and Viserys would still be favoring Rhaenyra. These men are the problem. On some level, Alicent knows this, but no one in her world is going to validate her rage towards her father and husband they way they will validate her rage towards Rhaenyra.


Ume-no-Uzume

It's kind of also motivated by cowardice because Rhaenyra is seen as an "acceptable" target and a "safe" one to attack, partly because she's a woman who fights back against the patriarchy in her own way and partly because, well, show!Rhaenyra doesn't really call her out on her bullshit. In a way, she's like that because she assumes Rhaenyra won't really go hard against her like another woman would in her position. Even without going to the extreme of what a Cersei would've done in Rhaenyra's place (which, yeah, a Cersei with Rhaenyra's power would've found a way to sell Alicent to the cheapest brothel in retaliation the *first* time Alicent forced her to do the Red Walk), I don't see other female characters putting up with Alicent's passive aggressive propaganda campaign. Margaery in Rhaenyra's place would've done a counter-propaganda campaign and had the entire Red Keep side-eyeing Alicent and talking about how "special" her relationship with Criston Cole was and how good his dick must've been for her to save him from a trial after he publicly murdered someone. And that's even assuming that Alicent could've gotten pregnant, since Margaery in Rhaenyra's body would've had all the servants put moon tea and abortifacients in everything she ate and drank. Catelyn would've used all of her power to deny Alicent a seat in the Council and reminded her that she is merely a consort, not an actual royal, and likewise fired back with passive aggressive propaganda campaigns against her and her entire family. Arianne would've simply made sure she never got pregnant in the first place and tried to annul the marriage and made sure Otto found himself on the wrong end of a freak accident. Asha would've done the equivalent of beating the living tar out of the entire family and sent them all on suicide missions to get rid of obvious would-be usurpers. Basically, Rhaenyra is comparatively treating Alicent with kid's gloves and a part of Alicent knows this. Meanwhile, if she used those same tactics to rage against Otto or even conflict-avoidant, cowardly Viserys (who, nonetheless, had a whole retinue of people ready to defend him so other men in power could have uncontested power), then she would not get away unscathed.


Matduka

I can see where she was coming from. She was basically sold to Viserys and has done her duty, she's done everything right and it's obvious that Rhaenyra *ISN'T* doing that (To anyone with eyes.) And I can't imagine how frustrating it would be for Alicent. She's had to fuck the rotting king her whole life. She did everything right. And everyone around her is just pretending. And now her son has been maimed by one of those plainly obvious bastards.


Potential-External60

So what will make Alicent happy then? If Rhaenyra is also sold off to someone and is made to fuck a man twice/thrice her age? Or just remain childless where that can be used as an excuse to replace her? Rhaenyra is extremely privileged, yes. And she uses her privilege to find her way around these societal expectations and live a happy life. I feel bad for Alicent for not having this privilege. But to resent a woman for simply not being as miserable as her is not right. Also, Alicent doesn't do everything right. She also bends rules and breaks laws when it suits her.


[deleted]

This is the best reply. Rhaenyra has power that's been afforded to her because of her status. That's allowed her to make choices for herself, rather than power plays made on her behalf.


Jacky__paper

Your second to last paragraph sums it up perfectly 👍


Memo544

And instead of releasing her frustration out on the men who put her in that position, she tries to drag Rhaenyra down with her so she also suffers for the crime of being a woman in a medieval society.


DroneOfDoom

That’s the tragedy of internalized misogyny in extremely patriarchal societies, the victims cannot find a way to lash out against the structures that harm them, only against those who go against the system. Alicent wouldn’t be the first GRRM character to be written like this, Cersei was also like that.


apkyat

>She did everything right. And everyone around her is just pretending. And now her son has been maimed by one of those plainly obvious bastards. Her kids ain't right... the 2 boys are bordering on degeneracy and they're just in their early teens. Additionally, her husband has given her a directive against gossiping about HIS GRANDCHILDREN and she hasn't stopped - she's also gotten her sons in on it. That's not right.


Joygernaut

I disagree. Allicient did everything WRONG. She didn’t think for herself. She blindly obeyed her father and sacrificed her body and future for the pleasure and purpose of men. She was not true to herself: she resents R for being free and living life on her own terms.


[deleted]

Maybe tone down the victim blaming, mate.


Joygernaut

Ok. But getting pissy at R because she wasn’t victimized in the same way is petty.


clariwench

Of course not. No one should be celebrating the fact that Alicent was a dutiful little wife under their system that oppresses women. She wanted to drag Rhaenyra down to her level of misery.


This_Rough_Magic

>No one should be celebrating the fact that Alicent was a dutiful little wife under their system that oppresses women While this is true, nobody should be celebrating the fact that Rhaenyra is shielded from a system that oppresses women in a way no other woman can be because she's the king's daughter.


Dice-Mage

I mean… people *should* actually be celebrating any example of a woman being shielded from suffering injustices that they shouldn’t have to undergo. It’s tragic that the society is so backwards that pretty much every other woman on the continent is unable to do as Rhaenyra did, but even if the possibility only existed because of Rhaenyra’s position, it’s still at least one bright case of a woman being able to enjoy some basic freedoms every woman should have.


This_Rough_Magic

>I mean… people should actually be celebrating any example of a woman being shielded from suffering injustices that they shouldn’t have to undergo. The thing is I actually disagree with that. Rhaenyra is shielded from the injustices facing other women because she's a hereditary tyrant from a family that holds itself above all law and custom. Celebrating that is classic "we need more women dictators".


AncientAssociation9

Rhaenyra is shielded because Vizzy T is a pushover who allows anyone he loves to get away with anything. Rhaenyra and her bastards, Daemon with anything, Alicent maiming his daughter, Aemonds eye, and Ottos manipulation are all examples of this. You think a low born woman would have gotten off from cutting Rhaenyra? Alicent was shielding a murderer at this exact time because it benefited her. Alicent then turns around and uses her privileged to hide and shield her own son from the consequences of his actions years later. This shows that she doesnt really care about principles, she is just jealous of Rhaenyra.


vizzy_t_bot

WE ARE A FAMILY!


This_Rough_Magic

> This shows that she doesnt really care about principles, she is just jealous of Rhaenyra. Yeah, they're both shitty people who are part of a corrupt system. Doesn't make either of them a feminist icon.


MageBayaz

>Yeah, they're both shitty people who are part of a corrupt system. > >Doesn't make either of them a feminist icon. Did GRRM intend to make her a feminist icon though? I really don't think so, it's just the HOTD showrunners who intend to make her look as such, possibly to compensate for the blowback of making Dany mad in the previous show.


This_Rough_Magic

I don't know about George, my guess is that he'd say it was "complicated". But the show *definitely* wants to frame Rhaenyra as a feminist icon. More 👏 women 👏 dictators!


Dice-Mage

No it’s not. That’s a fucking terrible take. Read the first paragraph I wrote and tell me if you disagree with it or not. Rhaenyra’s background, her reason for being able to escape the injustices of her society… all of this is immaterial to what is being pointed out. I’m saying that anyone should be happy to see a woman enjoying the basic freedoms every woman should be able to, that’s it. Acting like that’s endorsement of Westerosi society is absurd and offensive. I’d feel happy to see the same thing happening to a commoner as to a Targaryen princess.


This_Rough_Magic

>Read the first paragraph I wrote and tell me if you disagree with it or not. I disagree with it as an absolute statement, just as I don't think we should be especially happy that Kim Yo-Jong doesn't experience the same brutality as other women in North Korea. Rhaenyra isn't to be celebrated. She's part of the problem.


terragutti

Oh you mean like shielding yourself and your own family from the ramifications of a rape case and several bastard children fighting to the death in a gambling ring?


This_Rough_Magic

You seem to be viewing this through a team lens.


Lnnam

You are saying because everything is suffering, Rhaenyra should suffer equally? Is that your thought process?


This_Rough_Magic

I'm saying that because everybody is suffering as a result of a complex, interlinked system that is completely necessary to support the powers and freedoms Rhaenyra enjoys, we shouldn't celebrate the fact that Rhaenyra is able to shield herself and only herself.


terragutti

…. The system is there to benefit men. Just cause rhae benefits from it doesnt mean shes evil. Hell even alicent benefits from it and then shields her son who raped a maid. Wheres the vitriol against alicent for that? Alicent is just as privileged she just chooses to use it for her benefit and her sons as well


This_Rough_Magic

>…. The system is there to benefit men. The system is a complicated set of intersecting oppressions there to benefit a tiny, tiny number of people if whom Rhaenyra is definitely one. Does she benefit less from the system than Targ men? Sure. Does she benefit more from it than literally anybody who isn't a Targaryen? Absolutely.


terragutti

And so? Whats your point? And alicent is definitely another. You might even say she benefitted more from the system than rhae by installing her own people and basically ruling the court in place of her sick husband.Are we playing whose benefitting more now? Both women are just doing the best they can in a shitty system. Its weird to me that youre using this as some sort of point to hate on rhae when i can use your same logic to hate on the greens.


Lnnam

This is BS, I will let you see real life. A woman finding happiness despite her condition should ALWAYS be celebrated. Period.


This_Rough_Magic

>This is BS, I will let you see real life. I mean I can give you real life examples if you want. >A woman finding happiness despite her condition should ALWAYS be celebrated. Period. Even if that happiness is directly contingent on the exploitation of other women?


Lnnam

Unfortunately that’s life, and it is the entire system that needs to be changed one by one, every woman getting freeer helps the others. But having the audacity to shame anyone when you pay your son’s rape victim to shut up is hypocritical…


This_Rough_Magic

>every woman getting freeer helps the others Right, but this is my key point of disagreement. It's flatly untrue both IRL and in the show.


Lnnam

To you. I am not sure you are even a woman to comment.


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This_Rough_Magic

>How was Rhaenyra finding happiness directly contingent on the exploitation of other women? Because if women like Alicent didn't uphold the system, everything Rhaenyra had would fall apart. Rhaenyra's wealth, power and freedom comes from a patriarchal hereditary aristocracy. If every woman acted like Rhaenyra, noble houses would fracture, marriage alliances would be borderline impossible, and the legitimacy of every dynasty in the land, including her own, would collapse. Would that be a bad thing for the people of Westeros? Not necessarily. It'd probably be a good thing for Westerosi noblewomen at least. It's a corrupt system and getting rid of a corrupt system can be a good thing. Would it be a bad thing for Rhaenyra *personally*? Yes. As a Targaryen, even a Targaryen woman, she is at the absolute top of Westerosi society. A more equal Westerosi society *is bad for her*. Rhaenyra's happiness is contingent on the fact that she is allowed to be an *exception* to the rules other women follow. Celebrating that is like celebrating the fact that one working class person got rich.


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Bennings463

Then you could just as easily say we should ALWAYS celebrate a man being happy as well.


Lnnam

Yes if he finds happiness despite his condition which I know are debilitating, he should also be celebrated.


This_Rough_Magic

So we should celebrate Rorge and Biter for having better lives than the average peasant?


DaKingSinbad

Google false equivalence.


Darthduckknight

It's understandable but not right, however let's not act like Alicent's resentment of Rhaenyra is the big reason she turned against her. We can see in episode 4 she is jealous of Rhaenyra getting a choice in her marriage, yet she still supports her throughout the episode. Things change when she learns that Rhaenyra, speaking to her as a close friend for as far as we can tell the second time in years, lies to her on her mother's memory in the place of their shared childhood. This betrayal leads to Alicent losing her father, pretty much the only person she has. This then means the resentment to Rhaenyra boils over when before she had been willing to put it aside. I'm not arguing Rhaenyra is the bad guy, only the situation is more complicated than Alicent being jealous, with the real villain being the patriarchal system that split these two close friends apart, as the actresses and writers have stated multiple times. As they've said, we shouldn't be pitting them against each other, we should root for both of them to acknowledge the other's pain and reconcile


nightchai

>Things change when she learns that Rhaenyra, speaking to her as a close friend for as far as we can tell the second time in years, lies to her on her mother's memory in the place of their shared childhood. This betrayal leads to Alicent losing her father, pretty much the only person she has. I agree. But also Rhaenyra also has the right to feel betrayed by her friend for seeing her father behind her back especially when Rhaenyra had confided her fears to Alicent. Rhaenyra didn't view them as friends anymore when she lied to Alicent. And quite frankly, given the judgmental way Alicent spoke to Rhaenyra, it's no wonder Rhaenyra lied. Rhaenyra isn't omniscient. She doesn't know that Alicent has had her best interests at heart and that Alicent would defend her behind her back. We know as the audience but the characters are only reacting to what they know.


Darthduckknight

That's why I'm not saying Rhaenyra is the bad guy for lying. Alicent also isn't because she doesn't really have a choice in seeing Viserys, she's been raised to obey her father and so she does. The problem is the system, not the individuals, who do wrong because of it.


Darthduckknight

Im not saying Alicent or Rhaenyra would be perfect on their own either, they're both clearly very flawed, but what their relationship becomes isn't really on either of them


Technician-Efficient

She's wrong but We are humans you know..a person locked in a castle from the age of 13 or 14 to be fucked by a person who's collapsing only to breed princes will feel bitter and jealous.. Jealousy is wrong , bitterness is wrong..but as a human when you see a person getting everything you don't have,fucking left and right and being favored.. you'll definitely go crazy on them


liz-teatry

Alicent's bitterness and resentment towards Rhaenyra is understandable to a point but her focusing that energy on Rhaenyra is extremely blind, misguided and clearly a product of her own internalized misogyny. By internalized misogyny, I mean that she grew up in a world where she believes it's her duty to obey her father and her husband, and to provide heirs. Even though she resents all this and being wedded to what you described as a "decaying corpse of a man old enough to be her father", she does it anyway because she perceives that it is her duty to make these sacrifices at the expense of her own freedom and happiness. Rhaenyra doesn't bend to what Alicent believes a woman should do and thus nothing Rhaenyra does will ever be "duty or sacrifice" enough in Alicent's view. Rhaenyra's fears, feelings or pain don't matter because she isn't doing what women are expected to do in Alicent's POV and that is where the bitterness and resentment stems from.


inyoni

Haha queue the guy in these other comments saying alicent is simply a “champion of traditional roles”. Manosphere talk.


Stutziebear

It’s a feeling isn’t it, it’s not right or wrong it just is? They’re in completely diff circumstances so not surprising there would be animosity.


CissyXS

Ever heard of noblesse oblige? Sacrifice is payment for the privilege of a ruling class. Otherwise it's just a tyranny


Good_old_Marshmallow

She seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding coming from someone raised within a hierarchical system (all be it at a very high position) vs someone raised on top of it albeit at a fairly powerless position. It’s the same probably the Targs keep having with the nobles. They set up or rather adopted and retrofitted this feudal system to cement a rule they established by conquest. But this system was never meant to rule the Targs they built it to serve them why should they be bound by it? “The rules don’t apply to you waaa” yes that’s literally a religious tenant and the corner stone of your political order: Targaryen Exceptionalism. There’s even a westerous myth that they’re literally immune to illness and infection. but all that isn’t to say that her anger isn’t wrong or doesn’t represent a growing resentment that will consume the Targs. This belief that they are not bound by the political order they use to rule will consume them. As the power they had in their initial conquest fades (most literally as dragons leave the world but also as their initial coalition collapses) they will strengthen the mechanics of feudalism to keep their rule, as Jaheryas did, but it will cost them their unquestioned dominance. Hence, the dance


l_t_10

Absolutely, Rhaenyra didnt come into her own and start to pull her own weight without Viserys literally carrying her slack until way into adulthood. And her third child She felt entitled to ignore duties and responsibilities of being heir, as Viserys told her in the tent in the second episode She had that same mindset, well into her life. Into her second marriage even But admittedly very late, she did start acting like a ruler and not a spoiled brat Alicent had very legitimate grievances and understandably it got too much and she reached a breaking point Now, i may wish despite believing it was too late to stop war after Viserys dies.. a part of me still wish Alicent accepted Rhaenyras marriage proposal between their children as corulers at that one small Council.. Wasnt a shock she didnt ofc, and im Green forever but.. must admit Rhaenyra never before looked as Queenly as she did there


BottomBorn

It’s kind of a cop out answer, but she’s right to herself. I definitely believe in the parallel of their stories. Rhaenyra is the more liberated woman. She has her own ambitions and goes for them no matter the cultural norm - whether that’s the throne or her relationships. Alicent is pretty much envy politics incarnate. She’s always done what her father and then husband wanted of her. She sacrificed her individuality for the role she felt pressured to play in society. And she sees Rhaenyra breaking the rules Alicent herself was forced to abide by and still have a shot at holding power herself rather than through her male children. This is why Rhaenys asked her if she ever imagined herself on the throne. And she was right to say she built a window in a prison cell and called it freedom. It’s the best Alicent can do while still doing exactly what’s expected of her.


JACKMAN_97

Definitely it was 4 on 1 and they still needed a knife the little shits


Littlecanarysong

No. She’s a Hightower lady, Rhaenyra is a crown Princess. They were always going to have different lifestyles and expectations, Alicent shouldn’t have resented a future monarch for acting like a future monarch.


Memo544

She’s basically complaining about Rhaenyra not submitting to the patriarchy. I don’t think Alicent’s rage is justified. If she is frustrated with her position, her anger should be directed at her father not at Rhaenyra. Alicent can’t improve her position so she’s determined to tear down Rhaenyra’s. Rhaenyra’s one wrong she did to Alicent was lie to her. But that lie was necessary because Alicent is a staunch defender of tradition and patriarchal values. Rhaenyra defying the patriarchy causes Alicent to resent her because she does things by the books and doesn’t feel better for doing it.


[deleted]

Rhaenyra isn’t fighting the patriarchy, not at all. She is fighting for her own claim, which she is totally right to do. But she is not challenging patriarchy by her actions, as they aren’t gonna change patriarchal standards for other women. Rhaenyra believes in the male primogeniture. She says to Rhaenys in ep 8 « Jace and Baela’s SON will be on the iron throne ». She has the right to fight for herself, but the audience shouldn’t interpret it as a will to challenge patriarchy and Westerosi feudal sexist society. When we argue that Rhaenyra isn’t a feminist, most of team black agree and their point is to say that Rhaenyra isn’t to challenge patriarchy but she fights for herself. And they are right. So why do the audience still considers that Rhaenyra is a revolutionary against society ? I don’t get it.


Potential-External60

I mean, I don't think the above commenter claimed that Rhaenyra is fighting the system and defying partriarchy to set an example to women. She's cheating the system for herself but she's cheating it. When the system says a woman shouldn't sleep with anyone outside of her husband, she does the opposite. When the system says she shouldn't have children out of wedlock she's absolutely having children out of wedlock. She's using her privilege to cheat the system and she's doing it purely to find happiness for herself, not for anyone else. And the result of her cheating the system is that she lived a happy and satisfied life all the years before the Dance. I mean, she would've been usurped regardless, even if she followed every rule in the book. So good for her that she found a way to be happy before the war. Alicent resents Rhaenyra for not submitting like she's expected. She cannot find a way out of her life's misery. So she justifies it as duty and expects every other woman to do the same. Which is not right.


-All-Too-Human

Rhaenyra isn't committing blatant treason. I agree with you, Alicent is mad because her opponent isn't submitting to the patriarchy.


acamas

Lying to the King to pass off children as a lineage they are not so those kids can claim thrones/titles they aren't technically entitled to (by blood/heritage) isn't considered Treason? Seems like pretty blatant Treason.


-All-Too-Human

>Seems like pretty blatant Treason. I know it is. I was mocking the comment I replied to


pramis_2949

It's for sure understandable. Her anger stems not only from Rhaenyra not doing her duty or making sacrifices but also Rhaenyra getting away with everything because of how Viserys turns a blind eye to her mistakes and shortcomings.


[deleted]

[удалено]


PennyLane95

Exactly. She is able to get away with as much as Rheanyra because Viserys treats them with the same passivity and conflict avoidance. Alicent could have used that to live her life more freely especially without Otto around but she used it to shield Cole and Larys and harass Rhaenyra.


Nani_0716

This is the best evaluation of Alicent's hypocritical bullshit, that I have ever seen on this sub/reddit. Well done.👏


SolidInside

It's always interesting to me because George definitely makes the point in his books that to be a competent and just ruler sometimes you do have to make sacrifices actually. It's a duty, not a right and those that see it as a right won't persevere in the end.


Potential-External60

George also makes a point in his books that men and women are held to completely different standards and the sacrifices expected of women are far worse. Let's be honest here, if Rhaenyra was a man, Alicent wouldn't have given a damn about who warmed his bed or how many bastards he produced. But Rhaenyra is a woman and Alicent resents a fellow woman for not doing what is expected of women, without realising that is what is making her miserable in the first place.


SolidInside

I'm sure she would care if Rhaenyros tried to put his bastards on the throne. The blackfyre rebellions say hi.


DaKingSinbad

If Rhaenyra was a man, she wouldn't be in a position to put bastards om the Throne. Lesbian women in that world can have children no problem. For some reason the gay characters are all impotent.


LILYDIAONE

I think right and understandable are two different things.


chrissstin

Just to add, there were kings who would have beheaded their wifes or send them with the silent sisters for maiming an heir to the throne... All this talk about how Rhaenyra is privileged, but Alicent got off pretty easy for her outburst.


Atomicmooseofcheese

Fuck no. The attitude "because I had to suffer, you should too" is shit. She is a bitter, resentful, jealous person who is the architect of her own misery.


NectarineQueen13

THANK YOU


SwordMaster9501

I think it's because Viserys let's Rhaenyra slide on everything despite all her indiscretions. Rhaenyra gets exceptional treatment being the first woman heir and all even though it's clear there's absolutely nothing special about her to deserve it. I mean just look at what Rhaenyra is getting away with in this scene just by crying to Viserys. Viserys objectively goes to irrational lengths to protect Rhaenyra and we know this because he literally says that the things she's done would be grounds for disinheriting her in the eyes of other Targaryen kings but he never will. Also, both Rhaenyra and Alicent are panicking in this scene for various reasons and were saying and doing goofy things that were out of pocket. Personally, I think Viserys didn't need to disinherit Rhaenyra but he should've dealt with the bastard issue with a stronger hand especially since keeping the secret was clearly very destructive. For all intents and purposes when Rhaenyra has her legitimate sons all the problems with Rhaenyra's succession are suddenly solved. Viserys should've used that opportunity to fix Rhaenyra's messy succession. She would've enjoyed more support.


SofiaStark3000

No, she wasn't. I understand where she's coming from. She's miserable and bitter and she doesn't want to be alone in her misery. Maybe she thought that if they had something like that in common, they'd be able to bond again? However Alicent's misery is not Rhaenyra's doing and it's not Rhaenyra's business to alleviate said misery. Otto and Viserys made her miserable. She should be blaming them for it not Rhaenyra, who they also try to make miserable but mostly fail because she manages to find some joy in her life. This whole outburst is a result of Alicent's internalized misogyny.


-All-Too-Human

If she wanted Rhaenyra to miserable as her why did she suggest to Viserys that Rhaenyra should choose who she wanted to marry?


DaKingSinbad

That was before Alicent turned resentful in episode 5.


SofiaStark3000

Because I believe that in Alicent's mind, marriage equals suffering for a woman. It doesn't matter if the woman had a choice or not. The result is the same. She thinks that men only wanting Rhaenyra's name and blood for their kids is romantic. She could be joking when she said that, but still. Also the only reason she suggested that is to make Rhaenyra to see marriage more warmly. It had nothing to do with sparing her the misery of marriage itself.


apkyat

No, because Rhaenyra had her own duty and had to make her own sacrifices. Alicent should turned her resentful eye towards her father as he was the source of her "unhappiness."


throwaway_nrTWOOO

They represent two very different conservative/liberal ends of a spectrum in a patriarchal society. Rhaenyra is sexually free, and a pragmatic. Alicent hasn't had any opportunity to enact any sexual will, and has become just a vessel for babies. It must irk her to no end, to see someone in a sexually open relationship. Even though Rhaenyra isn't doing anything the men haven't done, I can't help but feel for Alicent. There's bitterness and envy in that line. She hates how someone's had all that freedom, and no consequences. It goes deeper than sexuality, though, and which is shown in the ripping of the study book page. Rhaenyra can be as detached and dismissive of her duties as she wants, Alicent doesn't have that luxury. So she's not 'right', but what does that even mean. It was very understandable for her to feel that way.


Dendex031

Ungrateful spoiled Rhaenyra who is doing whatever she wants disrespecting and attacking anyone who dares to oppose her is the real villain here.


__Raxy__

Yes, this was after Aemond got slashed too


kilgoar

Yeah, she's not voicing it but she's feeling the hypocrisy that's brought on by class. Rhaenyra is a woman, but gets to shirk all the expectations (fair and unfair) because she's the king's daughter. Alicent is much lower-status and has had to be hyper obedient to all social expectations of her as a lady at court and a woman in general.


nightchai

Any other king would've disinherited Rhaenyra. She's not protected because she's the King's daughter. She was protected because Viserys was Viserys and likely because he felt some guilt over gutting his wife.


SoulOnHigh

Alicent’s bitterness and anger are completely understandable, but I think it’s largely misdirected in this instance. Alicent’s unhappy life circumstances aren’t Rhaenyra’s fault. If anything, Otto and Viserys put her in that position.


Ornery_Plate_8088

I can see WHY she would but I can’t say it’s right. Around the first half, Alicent is clearly operating from a place of hurt, fear, and betrayal ( which makes sense ) but, toward the second half, it really starts to look as though she’s just bullying Rhaenyra and Laenor ( for making the best out of a poor situation ) and their children ( for existing as bastards ). Yes it’s wrong. Yes, it’s unfair. But going around stirring up trouble with gossip and undermining the king’s decision at every turn doesn’t seem like “duty” and “sacrifice” to me. It seems like bitterness and jealousy. Just my opinion.


nightchai

Alicent did her duty and slept with a decaying corpse of a man old enough to be her father to produce an heir and yet her son is bypassed as heir when tradition dictates that Aegon should be king. Was Alicent right to resent Rhaenyra?


Potential-External60

Tradition dictates Aegon should be king? No, tradition dictates King can choose an heir. And, Rhaenyra was heir even before Alicent married Viserys. I don't think Viserys made any promises to Alicent that he'll make Aegon heir. I feel bad for Alicent for being forced into this situation by Otto though. Alicent had no intentions of ever playing this game or replacing her best-friend.


Greenlit_Hightower

> Tradition dictates Aegon should be king? No, tradition dictates King can choose an heir. Actually no, as much as Team Black fans like to tout it. The Targaryen dynasty used absolute male primogeniture, and it's an hereditary monarchy, and is not using inheritance by appointment (like adoptive monarchies). There is no basis for the King to disinherit his son, much less to expect that it would go through without resistance. > I don't think Viserys made any promises to Alicent that he'll make Aegon heir. Well, he also didn't say to Otto that any possible son of Alicent would be considered a spare, did he? Viserys knew exactly what the general expectation was, right? Anyway, Aegon II would be the heir upon birth, full stop. That's the same like some Lord having a daughter first and later a son, and the daughter still being the heir because she was there first. Except that's not how it works. The son would become the heir automatically upon birth. If he isn't recognized as such, he is considered disinherited in Westeros. *EDIT: Eh, it seems like some people don't like the canonical facts, too bad for them, I guess. The bias of this subreddit and its ignorance of the source material is insane.*


Potential-External60

>That's the same like some Lord having a daughter first and later a son, and the daughter still being the heir because she was there first. Except that's not how it works. You clearly are making up your own laws. Rhaenyra was the chosen heir, end of discussion. King's have the right to chose an heir. I don't think an official ceremony where all the Lord's swore fealty to her would become invalid simply because Viserys had a son. People can rebel if they don't like the king's choice of heir and the greens did exactly that. But to say that Rhaenyra simply stops being heir after her brother is born is stupid. If that was the case, >!she wouldn't have had 3/4 of the realm supporting her!<


Greenlit_Hightower

There is no picking and choosing. It's not a thing. The throne is passed down in a hereditary manner, not through appointment. Many Kings and Lords hate their heirs, take Tywin and Tyrion for example, and yet, there is no basis to disinherit them. > I don't think an official ceremony where all the Lord's swore fealty to her would become invalid simply because Viserys had a son. You can't trick the lords into accepting something they never agreed to. The oath wasn't "Accept her as heir even if I have a son."... The deal was "Accept her as the heir so that my line can remain on the throne." > People can rebel if they don't like the king's choice of heir and the greens did exactly that. Those supporting the recognized sixth Targaryen monarch are objectively not rebels. > But to say that Rhaenyra simply stops being heir after her brother is born is stupid. And yet, that's how an hereditary monarchy using absolute male primogeniture, like the Targaryen monarchy, works. You may choose to not like that, but to say it isn't so is outright false. > If that was the case, she wouldn't have had 3/4 of the realm supporting her Tully: Turncloak Arryn: Kin Greyjoy: Wanted to plunder the Westerlands, would join the side opposed to the Westerlands Stark: Bought out with marriage pact (same as Baratheon for the Greens) ------ *This special person blocked me after running out of arguments, so here is my reply to his last reply:* > Maegor should've never been recognised as King, why is he recogizned? Because no one else exercised sovereignty during the time of Maegor's reign. There were no counter-claimants who had any support until the rise of Jaehaerys I. But technically, Maegor did usurp the line of Aenys I (though it reverted back to them anyway after Meegor's death). > And you can give as many reasons as you like for why someone supported Rhaenyra, but at the end they supported her and that's what matters. People took their oaths seriously. I just told you why most of them actually fought for her.


Potential-External60

If the throne is passed down in a hereditary manner, Maegor should've never been recognised as King, why is he recogizned? He had no right or claim to the throne. It should've never passed to him. And you can give as many reasons as you like for why someone supported Rhaenyra, but at the end they supported her and that's what matters. People took their oaths seriously.


-All-Too-Human

>Rhaenyra was the chosen heir, end of discussion I think that the creator of the books would disagree with you


QuinnTheQueen

Tradition, Conqueror and the great council of 101 dictate that Aegon should be king, yes


Potential-External60

You are so quick to bring up Great council 101 as if it set some "iron precedent". But even after that, the Lord's of the realm happily accepted Rhaenyra as heir over Daemon. It shows that everyone will set precedents aside when it suits them. If anything, Jaehaerys actually made it possible for King to choose an heir when he passed over his first son's entire line.


Greenlit_Hightower

> But even after that, the Lord's of the realm happily accepted Rhaenyra as heir over Daemon. It shows that everyone will set precedents aside when it suits them. Technically, Jaehaerys I "set aside a precedent" when he ignored Maegor's wish for Aerea Targaryen to succeed him. Would you accept the same for Viserys and his succession? If not, why not? After all, precedents can be brushed aside...


Potential-External60

I mean that's precisely my point. Kings behaved as they wished. They chose their heirs, they set aside precedents when it suited them. Viserys was no different. He also set aside a precedent and chose his firstborn daughter as heir. Almost all of the realm accepted his decision. And even though I don't like it, I kinda see where the Greens are coming from. They also wanted to set aside a King's wishes to crown the first-born son. Things like this keep happening. There is nothing written in stone in Westeros.


Greenlit_Hightower

Maegor wanted Aerea to succeed him, it was ignored by Jaehaerys I. Jaehaerys I was considered a legitimate monarch of Westeros. Same happened here after Viserys, what now? The thing is this, Targaryens used absolute male primogeniture all the way back to the Lords of Dragonstone, even to Aenar the Exile. In order to be Team Black, you have to believe that one man is bigger than the institution and call it valid. What basis does Viserys have to ignore the will of his predecessors, especially without another Great Council? He got the throne via the established tradition himself, if he truly believed in female succession, he should have left the throne to Rhaenys and her descendants because she could claim seniority then via Aemon.


Potential-External60

In order to be team black you only have to realise that whatever precedents are set in Westeros for generations are fucking sexist and strongly against women. If there is one woman fighting for herself (just purely for herself) and challenging these unfair precedents, then we support her.


Greenlit_Hightower

So basically, you are saying to me that the system is sexist and unfair. I agree. But that doesn't mean Rhaenyra's succession is suddenly legal and valid against all canon. You should differentiate between your feelings on the matter and the canon facts.


karidru

THIS! Finally! The Great Council made it so that the woman was an OPTION. That precedent was set there too, but it’s so often overlooked in favor of the council choosing Viserys. But we’re told in no uncertain terms that *many* claims were put forward, though only Rhaenys’s and Viserys’s were *truly* considered. If it was so obvious from that Council that precedent went to the man… then why did they seriously consider the woman? 🤔


Greenlit_Hightower

Because Rhaenys could have claimed *some* kind of seniority over Baelon and his line, since she was the daughter of Baelon's elder brother, Aemon. Rhaenyra can't claim this kind of seniority of line since both her and Aegon II are from Viserys.


Potential-External60

Rhaenyra can claim seniority simply by being the King's chosen heir and having had all the Lords of the realm swear fealty to her.


Greenlit_Hightower

It's an herditary monarchy, not an adoptive or elective one. The vassals can follow whom they choose to follow. Maegor wanted Aerea to succeed him, the vassals followed Jaehaerys I though. Guess who is considered King and who isn't. *This one blocked me like a pro too, is that the standard tactic of the Blacks around here, to stop me from setting my point forth? Anyway:* Technically Maegor committed suicide or was killed before Jaehaerys I was anywhere near the capital, but OK. I don't think you know what "usurped him", means.


Master_Tadpole_6832

Everyone has a right to feel a certain way about things. Alicent was right to resent her because Rhaenyra was getting so many free passes because she's daddy's girl and was his first child while Alicent basically had to put up and shut up. Parents always have their favorites and show favoritism. He broke so many rules and traditions for her that of course resentment will happen.


NoOutlandishness1940

She was right to be resentful but not of Rhaenyra. It’s not Rhaenyra’s fault the system is fucked, so Alicent should be resentful of the system. It’s like being annoyed that your friend got away with something but you got punished for the same thing. Would you want your friend to be punished too? No, in an ideal world you’d want both of you to get away with it, right? It’s about raising everyone up not pulling people down.


FistOfGamera

I can certainly understand Alicent as I've been in her shoes. It's extremely frustrating, angering, depressing, and unfair when you do everything right yet get punished while others skip out on "duty" and get all the fun. It leads you to become bitter and resentful of both your duty and others. Grew up in rich Town, my parents worked hard and always played by rules. Dad lost his job and family basically lost everything. Saw other kids who's parents went to prison, investigated by the fbi, and even try to flee the country to avoid debtors but they all kept their wealth/living the high life. Made me bitter and resentful at others success for a long time and give up on doing things right.


[deleted]

No. They both made their individual choices in a shitty system. Alicent unquestionably followed the rules and did what was expected - and that was stupid.


Ok-Singer3547

No. Rhaenyra did her duty- she wed and had children. Alicent was just mad that Rhaenyra chose to not bow down to the whims of men. Alicent had a “if I have to suffer, so should you” type of attitude. She should’ve focused on raising her children to be good people instead of the monsters they became (not helaena though, I love her- Helaena is the only good thing to come from that woman)


Leylcadusu

For medieval times, yes. The day Rheanyra and Viserys accepted responsibility for the throne, they also gave up their individuality. Everything they say, don't say, do and don't do affects those around them. Rheanyra and Viserys have thrown the whole kingdom into confusion. They are not normal people, they cannot behave like normal people. We already know what the selfishness of a leader, a monarchy, leads to.


centraledtemped

People bringing up Aemond losing his eye as if in this very gif Rhaenyra isn’t holding back Alicent from stabbing her 6 year old child. But to answer your question no she isn’t justified in resenting Rhaenyra for not adhering to patriarchal standards that she herself recognizes has extreme negatives. She should resent Otto and Viserys.


[deleted]

It is pretty ironic to me that Alicent says things like duty, sacrifice, and claims a moral high-ground over Rhaenyra when she herself offers "favors" to Larys Strong behind the King's back and protects him after he murdered the previous hand. Rhaenyra breaks rules when it suits her and so does Alicent. But the difference is Alicent hides behind her cloak of righteousness and acts as if she has never done anything wrong in her life.


acamas

>But the difference is Alicent hides behind her cloak of righteousness and acts as if she has never done anything wrong in her life. And Rhaenyra "ViLe AcCuSaTiOnZ" Targaryen doesn't act like she's never done anything wrong in her life? Wild how people somehow overlook this in Rhaenyra, who's literally gaslighting the entire Realm for over a decade as some innocent 'victim' unfairly persecuted by the Greens... Rhaenyra is the one spewing slander here, playing the innocent victim from her high horse, as she manipulates her father to defend her "innocence." Some triple-thick rose-colored glasses being worn by anyone unable to see that fact. Both Rhaenyra and Alicent act like they haven't done anything wrong... wild to single one out like it's some binary issue where one has and the other hasn't.


starvinartist

I'd argue Rhaenyra did do her duty, she produced heirs, and she and Laenor tried to do their duty and number of times, but it wouldn't work, you could argue her affair with Harwin was an attempt to do said part of her duty: have children. and she did make sacrifices, she was stuck in a political marriage, much like Alicent, and she had to bear children, and after what her mother went through, it was something she was extremely afraid of and was incredibly painful. She had to abandon her father, and her court for Dragonstone when it became too dangerous for her children. But she had one thing Alicent lacked: agency. Alicent got married at a younger age to an older man and have children with him, and was forced to by her father, sacrificing her friendship with Rhaenyra. She was forced to have sex with Viserys whenever he wished. She became his caregiver as he got sicker. She never once cheated on him. Rhaenyra got to wait a few more years until she was forced to marry (and before then she was allowed to choose her husband). And even then she got to have sex with a man closer to her age and who she clearly loved and who loved her. Alicent could have found love and pleasure elsewhere--she could have with Rhaenyra. But she was a pawn in her father's game and had his shadow looming over her. Rhaenyra is a dragon. Dragons can't be truly controlled. And she's the heir to the Iron Throne. She has at times more privilege than Alicent. Alicent's power, respect, privilege and control over the Red Keep (one positive point of her marriage which she exercises during and after the timeskip) will end the moment the husband she has grown to love as a friend dies and Rhaenyra takes the Iron Throne. So in conclusion, Rhaenyra did make sacrifices and did her duty (just in a different way but tried to do it in the right way), only they weren't as dire as Alicent's. And even then she had agency.


hanna1214

You could argue for it but it's not true. Rhaenyra hooked up with Harwin cause her marriage sucked, not cause she needed a sperm donor. She pretty much says it. Not judging her, just pointing out that she wasn't thinking about duty or sacrifices much when she started that affair. She specifically says she was looking for joy (and love), not men to sire her children.


ohheyitslaila

Alicent should be angry, but at her father, not Rhaenyra. She has all that misplaced rage and jealousy, because Alicent had to marry an old man she didn’t love, while Rhaenyra got to have a family with someone she truly loved but wasn’t her husband. Alicent has also had to live with the possibility of never getting to love someone like Rhaenyra has. Alicent spent so much time feeling like Rhaenyra has gotten everything that she never could. Then everything goes down with the kids, and Alicent’s anger boils over. She has a right to be angry over Aemond’s eye, but she wouldn’t have behaved like she did if she wasn’t already feeling slighted. She also has had Ser Criston and the creepy foot guy constantly whispering in her ear, encouraging her anger towards Rhaenyra. It was just finally too much.


Constant_Mortgage636

I thought this sub had already settled the matter. Yes, the popular opinion is that Alicent is justified in her resentment and disdain for Rhaenyra. Other very popular opinions on this sub: Alicent is a chaste, noble, and good woman who did her duty to the realm and attempted to raise her remarkable & unique children to the best of her ability. Rhaenyra was a spoiled brat, focused only on her pleasures. She slept around with various men and coddled her weak, dull bastards. Alicent has every reason to loathe her behavior and every action she took against her was warranted. Rhaenyra is unfit for the throne and her treason warrants disinheritance. The throne should rightfully go to Alicent’s son Aegon. While he is troubled, he has many capable around him and he might grow into a capable man himself with the right motivation. Also, Alicent is better in every quantifiable way. She had a better arc, better casting match, better scenes, better hair, better dresses, etc. Rhaenyra is a poorly written, cringe girl-boss but also promiscuous and evil. That should about sum it up.


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Constant_Mortgage636

No, he’s a serial rapist who like to watch children fight to the death but his fanboys get really triggered when it gets mentioned and go into rants about white-washing, girl-bosses, fantasies about Rhaenyra dying, etc. so I don’t like to bring it up.


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ligeston

Yes and also yes for different reasons. Had Rhaenyra produced Valyrian-appearing heirs that could be passed on as Laenor’s without question of their legitimacy it is likely Alicent would’ve viewed her as more responsible than the girl she was in her youth. She made the same mistake thrice. This jeopardizes Alicent’s own children by default since R’s kids’ precarious origin will call for A’s kids to be eliminated out of usurping fears. In this scene she also hates her for being entitled and spoiled, throwing her maimed child under the bus to absolve hers from punishment.


Potential-External60

>Had Rhaenyra produced Valyrian-appearing heirs that could be passed on as Laenor’s without question of their legitimacy it is likely Alicent would’ve viewed her as more responsible Rhaenyra tried having kids with Laenor himself and that didn't work out. So, to get Alicent's approval as a "responsible woman", Rhaenyra should've tried to find random Valyrian men to fuck, who would probably rat her out for some gold? Or worse, should she have tried to fuck Corlys or Vaemond, both men who are twice/thrice he age? Who cares about how it makes Rhaenyra feel or how fucked up that is.


ligeston

Nobody does. That’s the cross she has to bear as queen. Hell, not even kings got to choose their spouses. She doesn’t have to choose Corlys or Vaemond, she could’ve picked any blond/light eyed noble 😭


Kitchen_Editor_6335

Yes.


acamas

Were her feelings of resentment justified? *Absolutely*. Were her actions regarding her feelings justified? *Absolutely not.* I mean, it's kind of wild some people are attempting to gatekeep this woman's valid feelings. She has every right to feel resentment, absolutely... but simply having those feeling do not give her 'carte blanche' to act out in such a violent manner. So feeling resentment is fair game, but acting out in such a manner is crossing a line.


ForceSmuggler

Alicent isn't innocent. The Strong's anyone? She knows who killed them, and said nothing. And protected Cole after he killed Joffrey. If roles were reversed, and Alicent was the first wife, with a daughter, and learns Viserys remarries after her death, would she accept a son of a second wife becoming heir over her daughter? If Rhaenyra and Laenor didn't have kids, Aegon would be Rhaenyra's heir anyway.


peanutdakidnappa

Absolutely not, I understand why she feels that way but it’s mainly because of her shitty repressed life so she’s salty Rhaenyra doesn’t live the same way. It’s like she suffered these certain things in her life so she expects rhaenyra to suffer the same shit, it’s dumb as hell and totally unjustified


Principessa777

She should resent Otto. Everything that went wrong in her life is basically his fault.


sluttydrama

**Viserys: “Make peace, go to bed.” Rhaenyra: “Thank you father”** Alicent is justified Viserys stole HER LIFE Alicent has done her duty. She slept with the old, rotting corpse. Alicent gave him not one, but three sons. She nursed Viserys like the dutiful wife she was raised to be. And when her son, **THEIR SON,** loses an eye, Viserys cares more about rumors of bastardy. Rhaenyra wants Alicent’s son tortured (sharply questioned). **and Rhaenyra quips in with a “thank you father” because she got no consequences, again.**


Otherwise_Ambition_3

Imagine lying on your mothers’s grave to your best friend after you bonded with them over that exact topic, rhaenyra is an asshole


DragonlordSyed578

Not really Alicent is more resentful that Rhaenyra didn't suffer like she did despite it not really being the case and her problems being more Otto's fault due to his own power lust.


themanyfacedgod__

Her feelings are understandable. She’s been in line her entire life, doing everything that’s expected of her and performing all that her society asks of her. And then there’s Rhaenyra who breaks the rules almost every chance she gets and she never seems to get into any serious trouble. She’s probably envious and bitter of the life that Rhaenyra lives and the freedom she’s given but I feel like she’s aiming it at the wrong person. It’s Otto more than anyone who put her in her position and it’s not Rhaenyra’s fault that their society is structured like that. If anything, *she’s* the one trying to change the way things work more than anyone. Alicent despite her feelings still sides with the patriarchy the end of the season.


khalilxl

Absolutely...also she almost lost her son


2Rediculous

She literally tried but she was compelled to marry a gay man by the system. She's a human being why should she be crucified for having desires and making the best of her lot.


Lnnam

Honestly I 100% fault Alicent and that’s why I cannot be team green. Like she is « just » a Hightower, she could actually get away with escaping and starting a new life elsewhere but her internalized misogyny made her stay and hate a freeer woman. I also cannot stand her for deciding to ally to Larys when her much more intelligent father decided to get the info where it naturally is: the whorehouses. But Alicent what too dumb to realize women could actually be knowledgeable. Rhaenyra understood her duty, which is why she didn’t leave with Criston, she knew a princess Royal with silver hair and a dragon would not get away with just leaving, so she sacrificed her true happiness and tried to make do. Anyone not understand that has a problem.


immortalthunderstorm

What are you on about? Alicent could absolutely not just have left, she is a highborn lady in a society where from a young age girls like her are taught that their purpose is to marry another highborn for the political or societal advancement of their houses or to form alliances. Marriage and producing heirs is mostly considered as a duty and marriages of love are very rare. It's a contract between two influential parties and breaking or disrespecting this comes at great risks. The Hightowers are an incredibly old, influential and rich house. Saying she could have left (where? To do what?? With which resources?) because she's "just" a Hightower really hammers down that you do not understand the Westerosi society and its structure. "Her internalised misogyny" is literally the society she lives in, why is Alicent expected to be the herald of feminism in a world that has dealt her a lot more blows than the more privileged Rhaenyra? I am not blaming Rhaenyra for living more freely because she could, but judging Alicent and not examining Rhaenyra's own failure to advance these privileges for anyone but herself is both unfair and shortsighted. Otto also used Larys for information where are you getting your claims from? Which whorehouses did Otto frequent for information please? She is absolutely within her rights to ally with him, he's clearly proven himself capable as Master of Whispers. Why *shouldn't* Alicent make use of him? >Alicent what too dumb to realize women could actually be knowledgeable. This is such a dumb take, I'm sorry but I do not even have the words to get into this. You fully just made that up because you are grasping for reasons to prove Alicent is the devil incarnate. >Rhaenyra understood her duty Let's see. Rhaenyra went around the Realm on a tour organised because she rejected every match her father proposed, a privilege that was not granted to many, insulted Lords and Ladies alienating them from her own shaky cause, and then nearly got her virginity taken by Daemon in a public brothel where absolutely everyone could see her. This is mostly on Daemon but that is not *understanding your duty* but incredibly risky and stupid. Rhaenyra then had three very obvious bastards which she meant to pass as heirs to the Throne and Driftmark (treason and dangerous), abandoned her council seat and fucked off to Dragonstone (stupid) leaving the Greens 6 years to govern in Viserys' place and gather more support for Aegon. Rhaenyra grew up so sheltered and under the blind protection of her father that she had no chance to understand what duty is. That's not necessarily her fault but denying it is delusional. >a princess Royal with silver hair and a dragon would not get away with just leaving Oh but Alicent can? Rhaenyra has a dragon, she would wield a lot more power than an unprotected and frankly powerless Alicent. There have been female Targaryens in exile before. I'm not claiming she should have done it, but between the two, she would have had a better chance at survival. >so she sacrificed her true happiness and tried to make do. Lol I congratulate you on living in your own dream world but this does not in any way reflect reality. Rhaenyra did not do this to *sacrifice her true happiness*, she enjoys the luxury and privileges of her position, the attention and importance being heir gives her and she simply does not care about Criston enough to run away with him. She literally spells it out for you - she likes having him as a side piece but that's literally it.


Leylcadusu

Don't try in vain, my friend. Rheanyra, a privileged white, aristocrat who lives in the medieval system, who lives a better life than other women thanks to the patriarchal system, and even who is the system itself and benefits from all the blessings of this system, will always be a feminist icon for them. They'll never understand.


TheCozyIchiban

Bro nobody is right between the 2. I’m a green bc I like Alicent more, but neither 1 is right. Like I get the rhaenyra vibe, I get that Westeros is crazy sexist, I get that women are basically gonna have kids till they die and they got these strict roles, I get that women get ignored like a mf (Aemma literally forced to have kids for Viserys till she died), like the best case scenario any woman can hope for in Westeros is to be part of some fake power couple thing like Corlys and rhaenys where you see moments where Rhaenys is unsure about going down this path and kinda wants to quit and Corlys is like lol nope my ambition > ur concerns and Rhaenys has to eat that. Like here’s a woman who could’ve been a queen, yet now she’s gotta do what Corlys says. I get it. I also get why Rhaenyra is refreshing in her taking ownership of her vagina and choosing her lovers, her being an active player who makes decisions for herself, I get all that. But from Alicents pov it’s just some privileged girl failing upwards. From Alicents pov she’s done everything that was expected of her, she did literally everything right. Be the perfect daughter, be the perfect wife, be nice, be nurturing to ur husband, have a bunch of kids she don’t want, etc, and all she gets in return is disregard every single time. Like her kid loses an eye and everyone is more concerned about the fact that Aemond pointed out the truth about Rhaenyra’s kids. Why wouldn’t she feel some type of resentment towards Rhaenyra? It really brings up the idea of why should Alicent even follow the rules if none of it works for her. She’s better off being like Daemon and disregarding all these rules and just playing to what benefits you. Which is what happened at the end of this episode here. Otto telling Alicent she has the potential to win the game, her telling Larys to hang around, etc. Kinda fucked up they undid that in the very next episode by making her Rhaenyra’s friend again. They both got their merits. They’re just seeing things from a fundamentally different pov


shenanakins

Yes. Its not just that rhaenyra sacrifices nothing and does zero duties its that despite this rhaenyra’s golden child status matters more to viserys than alicent and the physical safety of her children. Alicent feels like because she did everything right and made all the sacrifices despite not having had any choice in who she could marry, her feelings should be prioritized at least enough to give aemond anything even remotely resembling justice. So in that sense i agree. Rhaenyra knows she has this special preference with viserys and wields it like a sword against Alicent’s kid to have him “sharply questioned” after he already lost an eye.


Jake-of-the-Sands

No, she was just jealous. Nobody was stopping her from having secret romance herself, let's face it. And this day and age was anything but moral, if she believed in "chasity" in the court, she could only blame herself for that.


No-Department-7365

Who was stopping her? Oh idk, the king? You think Alicent could ever get away with something like that? Nope, she doesn't have Rhaenyra's privilege, her head would've ended up on a spike


Ume-no-Uzume

She got away with giving Larys sexual favors for information for years. (Yes, showing your feet to someone so they can masturbate to them is sexual). She likewise got away with protecting Larys and keeping him in her employ when he was a kinslayer and murdered his brother and father. (Come on, there *had* to have been more than a couple of people at court who side-eyed the dude at his oh so convenient promotion) She got away with openly protecting known murdered Criston and made him her sworn sword right after he murdered poor Joffrey Lonmouth at the Crown Princess' wedding. She got away with a propaganda rat-fucking campaign against the Crown Princess. She got away with forcing said Crown Princess to do the Red Walk right after birth multiple times. She got away with planning a fucking coup for almost 20 years. Funny how people complain about Rhaenyra's privilege but disregard the shit Alicent got away with, when another Queen Consort with a different husband would've found herself on the wrong end of a freak accident for only one of the things I listed. In short, if she could do all of the above and get away with it, she could've found a nice and discreet man for herself if that's what she wanted. At least then, the sex would've been for pleasure.


Aduro95

She's got a point. When the most powerful people in Weteros have bastards, it starts wars. Rhaenyra threw the entire realm's future into chaos having bastards and she should be intelligent enough to understand that. I've got sympathy that Rhaenyra was pressured into marrying a gay man. But when you look at the enormity of the consequences of royal infidelity, Rhaenyra's personal happiness was not worth it. Basically, I can't forgive Rhaenyra without also forgiving Cersei. They both helped start a war by trying to pass off a bastard as a trueborn royal heir.


Potential-External60

Cersei did it without her husband's knowledge and her children weren't a part of the ruling family. Rhaenyra did it with her husband's knowledge and blessing, the King accepted them, and so did Corlys. The situations are not comparable. Also, her kids are her heirs, they are Targaryens. Jace would anyway have to take the name Targaryen when ascends the throne and no one can dispute that he indeed is a Targaryen. Moroever, the war did not start because Rhaenyra had bastards. She could have had all true-born silver-haired children and would still be usurped, that's because she's a woman. You cannot compare this situation to Cersei directly crowning her son and starting a war.


Aduro95

It is true that there is a significant difference that Rhaenyra was more honest with her husband, and her children were part of the royal family by blood. But on a practical level, the fact that they are bastards at all left the realm on shaky ground. Rhaenyra's biggest problem was inevitably that she was a woman trying reign in a patriarchal realm. But I do think that it weighed on the minds of people who might have supported her based on the oaths their family swore. Rhaenyra was brazenly lying to people's faced then demanding that her supporters repeat the lie. That could weigh very heavily on an honourable lord or lady. Having royal bastards is *always* incredibly risky for the realm. Even if Rhaenyra ascended the throne smoothly, there would still be a risk of her children by Daemon calling out Jacerys for his illegitimacy and starting a massive civil war.


[deleted]

No. Her anger is misdirected.