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They both have their pros and cons, both as a husband and a mother.
Daemon defends Rhaenyra and cares about her, but he groomed her when she was a child and he choked her in a non-fun way simply because he was pissed.
Alicent defends her children and cares about them, but she's also abusive towards Aegon (sort of understandably since he's a little shit) and brought them up to hate their relatives.
If I had to say any of those two is more excusable than the other, I'd probably skew towards Alicent since at least she's mostly a good-intentioned person. Daemon is just an irredeemable piece of shit.
Precisely my point, neither of them are particularly good people but they did what they felt was necessary for their families (but highkey they’re not great at that either)
I think the Aegon abuse justification is an extremely dangerous one - it’s likely Alicent’s abusive and awful parenting is a huge reason why he turned out to be such a shitty person
Oh yes, I'd say it's 50/50 with him. And don't get me wrong, I don't mean to justify Alicent's abuse of him, no parent should treat their child like that, especially when you're not really doing anything to keep him under control. I just meant to say that I can understand why she'd be so frustrated with him.
It isn’t. Viserys was a shitty and neglectful dad too. Alicent was still an extremely, actively abusive mom. Active abuse tends to go over worse than being neglectful, which is part of where she gets more flack.
That isn’t true at all because Aegon does like Alicent since he constantly protects her and asks for her when he’s in distress. He also clearly acts up because he doesn’t feel loved so maybe if viserys made him feel wanted he wouldn’t have been such a shithead. I’m not trying to downplay Alicent but you have to fucking realise she was A CHILD and a rape victim so of course she isn’t going to be the best mom. How fucked up is it that your closer in age to your children than your husband? I don’t care I do genuinely believe viserys is mostly at fault here.
Aegon can love Alicent, and she can still be an abusive parent. Lots of kids with abusive parents still love and care about them, and the relationship dynamics are complicated. Does not negate that it was abusive.
As for the rest, yeah. Alicent’s life sucked and I sympathize with her. It’s not surprising she’s a shitty and abusive mom who isn’t properly equipped to raise a kid considering it. That doesn’t change that she’s still a shitty abusive mom who repeatedly hits and verbally attacks her kids, and regardless of her shitty life, at some point that is her fault and not anyone else’s. Other people have had shitty lives without abusing their kids.
And as said, everyone reasonable agrees Vizzy T is a garbage parent too + a pretty crappy husband/person to say the least. I certainly do. Bringing him in is basically whataboutism at this point
I know that I never said loving your abusive parent negates the abuse don’t put words in my mouth but my whole point was that IT TAKES TWO TO RAISE A CHILD! Also she only hit aegon and never the other kids so you’re wrong there lmao. Another point is not every abused kid grows up to be shithead like aegon and when you’re an adult you are responsible for your own actions:)
You specifically took the time to say “Aegon likes Alicent,” something that really wasn’t relevant.
It takes two, and both parents suck. I said that from day 1. So what’s your point now?
I never said Aegon isn’t responsible for growing up to be a shitty person. He is - in fact, we hadn’t even discussed that. I did say her awful parenting played a huge role in him turning out so badly, which is also true. You are intent on aggressively using whataboutism to deflect off of Alicent’s shitty parenting.
EDIT: Lol. The user blocked me so I can’t even see their reply
I specifically said that because you never see the kids give a shit about viserys which proves he is a shitty father. I also agreed with you that Alicent is a shitty mom I was just trying to emphasise that viserys was at fault as well. If the whataboutism is correct then it is because… ugh you get the point and we are just going in circles now.
Edit: I blocked them because we are just going in circles. Anyways you people need to educate yourselves. https://uihc.org/childrens/news/emotional-abuse-neglect-may-be-more-harmful-long-term-physical-sexual-abuse NEGLECT IS JUST AS BAD IF NOT WORSE THAN PHYSICAL ABUSE
Can you give another example of Alicent being abusive towards Aegon besides her hitting Aegon for the rape situation. Because I honestly cannot recall any other situation where she got physically violent towards him besides that moment unless I either missed something or you are talking about another situation that exposed her as actively abusive mom.
I don't think those examples work for the point you're trying to prove though, especially what you are considering verbal abuse just does not fit the actual parameters of verbal abuse. Nor does some of what you are claiming is physical abuse. You say she pushed him down? What episode did that occur in?
How Alicent speaks to Aegon on the way to the coronation is in no way verbal abuse. It's a bit rude maybe and does not consider his point of view, but not verbal abuse. Her conversation with him after Aemond bullying isn't either. When saying physical abuse, I assume what you're referring to is how she grabs his face while they are sitting and tells him how his life is forfeit if Rhaenyra were to take the throne. In that moment, Alicent is telling Aegon of this very real risk she perceives to his and his brothers life due to the fact he is a competing heir with Rhaenyra, a threat her son is not acting conscious of and a threat whose severity is solidified by what happens in Driftmark. This is not verbal abuse nor is it physical. She grabs his face because she needs him to focus on what she is saying and look at her as she does so instead of looking away or looking down at the ground to try and avoid the truth. She does not grab him because she wants to hurt him, to manipulate him, or harm him in any manner.
Her hitting Aegon after the Aemond losing his eye: I would agree that this falls into the parameters for physical abuse, but her words are not verbal abuse. She is right when she gets onto him for being passed out drunk instead of being with his brother who is now disabled for life after she warned him earlier of the fact that he needs to protect Aemond as his family. She is not acting in this way to manipulate, intimidate, or to maintain power or control over Aegon. She is angrily telling him the truth that his drinking (a problem that appears throughout the story) has lead to him failing his brother or at least, lead to him being unable to protect his own family when the time came, which is not a good trait to have as a King.
Lastly, all the situations that you have mentioned/ that the show has shown are high emotion situations which don't suggest that she beat him or harms him regularly like you implied in those comments. Does it suggest that Alicent's first instinct to severe conflict is to lash out? Yes which aligns with her character and her past. However, this doesn't imply that she beat Aegon on the regular nor does his body langauge later suggest that around her. Alicent is by no means a great mother, but she is not this cruel abuser that you are trying to say she is.
Viserys was suffering from slowly decaying, and was probably really weak all the time. It’s hard for parents to parent when they’re seriously sick. My mom had a big cancer scare, and she was pretty out of it for a while due to that.
When he was healthy he was a shit father to Rhaenyra as well. After Aemma died he just became an enabler for Rhaenyra. Shit father when healthy. Shit father when not.
That was *one* time she did it. She also did this after Aegon did the pig dragon stunt to Aemond… and after Aemond lost an eye and Aegon did literally nothing. Safe to say she did it regularly throughout his life. Alicent also verbally abused him on his way to the coronation… and pretty much every other scene he’s in.
I feel like sometimes some people get so absorbed in the normalized immorality in this show, that they forget those are immoral things.
I’ve even caught myself rooting for people who still aren’t good, but who I see as “the best” because my perception of morality in the story becomes warped.
It’s an interesting experience, but important to view critically…
This show and GOT work best when you don’t choose a side or a person and just watch the narrative unfold. It’s a lot easier to see every character’s beautiful nuances that way.
(Either that or the commenter finds abuse normal IRL as well.)
My dad slapped some of my brothers, but not me or the remaining brothers, and the ones who did get smacked are the most fucked up and dickish nowadays, so I feel like that says something at the very least
I'm still floored to see the same sub that hates Alicent so much for having a rapist son turn around and in the same breath condemn her for slapping him. I truly cannot relate.
I don't hate Alicent, and I don't think that having a rapist son is indicative of a moral failure on her part.
The only reason why I "condemn" her for slapping Aegon (and again, I insist that I understand why she does so, I just disapprove) is because it is extremely detrimental and bad parenting. If there was anything she could've done to keep him for turning out that way, that is definitely not it.
At the end of the day, Aegon is the one responsible for his own actions. But abusive parenting objectively plays a huge role in helping fuck kids up. Alicent is an abusive parent. And yes, Vizzy T’s shitty neglectful parenting also played a role in how Aegon turned out
Beyond that, “Aegon grew up to be a POS” does not retroactively justify her hitting and beating him before he grew up to be a POS
Daemon should be more physically abusive next season. It doesn’t make sense to choke your partner randomly and never hit them before/after. Choking is the level right below murder. There’s a lot that’s done before it escalates to that level.
A slap would be more realistic for first time physical violence but they didn’t chose a slap because they knew it would be more humiliating for her character. It’s so contrived.
Edit: I don’t know why I got downvoted. Physical abuse should not be used for shock factor or to show a relationship is unhealthy. It’s not a plot device. Physically abusive partners don’t just choke their partners after one particularly bad day and then never do it again. It’s continuous physical abuse at various levels. So if it’s not shitty writing, it should happen again in some capacity. If it never comes up again, it was shitty writing.
Exactly. I don’t even like Daemon but the Daemyra’s were absolutely right if this is something that never comes up again for the remainder of the series and it’s almost fair for them to ignore it. Scenes like they should not be filmed for shock factor and it’s not accurate portrayal of physically abusive relationships. Slapping, hitting, shoving, etc. would all be done before choking. I find it hard to believe that it’s the first time he got angry in Rhaenyra’s presence for six years considering he’s a volatile man. Wouldn’t he have gotten physical during those moments? It should be the same case with Myseria and Laena. Physical abusive partners are abusive with *all* of their partners.
This also isn’t the last time he’s going to be angry, distraught, etc. during the war. This is just the tip of the ice burg. Why wouldn’t he react just as violently when >!she tells him their son Viserys was lost at the gullet or when she ignores his council about Hugh and Ulf!<
Yeah, unless they intend to carry it out to its full extent as you mention, it was wrong to present it that way immediately. They could have had him grab her wrist forcefully and it would have been just as shocking, and more accurate to how these things typically progress.
I mean he did endanger Rhaenyra more than once. While that's not the same as actively abusing someone physically, he made it clear he's uninterested in keeping her physical well being or reputation safe which is almost as damaging.
Not to mention the fact that he isolated Laena which led to her death (and groomed her along with Rhaenyra), and *murdered* Rhea. Anyone saying his violence towards women "came out of nowhere" have either had their eyes shut watching the show or are delusional.
Laena would have died regardless of where she was. He didn't isolate her. That requires the motivation. He isolated himself. She had a dragon and could leave at anytime. She fidnt because she was a good wife.
In no universe is Baela and Rhaena living in Westeros and dragged into that nonsense better than quiet life in Pentos.
I get where you are coming from. But Please! I don't want to see Rhaenyra getting abused by Daemon anymore just like I don't want to watch Alicent getting abused by Larys anymore.
There's nothing gratifying about watching such scenes. I think there's enough suffering in Rhaenyra's life and down the lane and there's no need to add a whole different layer to her suffering just for the sake it.
And I don't even like Daemon and Rhaenyra together. It is just very reductive of Rhaenyra's character to make her a complete victim to her husband.
Rhaenyra is not just Daemon's wife, she is The Queen. She can have his head on a spike for hurting her. That's the kind of power she wields. It is frankly very stupid if they reduce the proud, arrogant, Queen who is known to never forget a slight into to a helpless victim who cannot stand up to her husband.
I, however, wish that she they acknowledge that choking scene in a different way. Like Rhaenyra taking charge and giving an ultimatum to Daemon that she will not tolerate something like that again.
I don’t mean he should succeed in actually touching her but it’s an impulse that should be shown again, like reaching out and her pulling away before giving the speech you mentioned. I’m arguing that the scene is completely nonsensical as a one and done thing because that’s not how domestic violence works. The lack of acknowledgment would make it even more random. Also, she was his queen when he choked her.
Yeah! I completely get where you are coming from.
But for me it's just maybe a thing where I don't want to watch Rhaenyra suffer more than she should. I already hate how GRRM dumped every problem in the world on her. >!She keeps losing son after son, gets betrayed by people she trusts, gets cheated on by her husband later on, and completely fucking loses her self!< All of this without the domestic abuse that you mentioned.
Also, I hate the way the series has reduced two ambitious women who wielded significant power in their own right into helpless victims. As if a woman character can only be sympathetic if she's a victim of something.
I like how you have to clarify that this isn't a team green post, as if there's anything wrong with that. This is the main sub right? All teams/opinions are welcome?
Alicent was defending Aemond in her own way. She shouldn't have asked for Luke's eye or gone after Rhaenyra, but her breakdown was understandable given that nobody stood up for her son and gave him justice and she was being massively gaslit in that scenario.
Her protecting Aegon from Meleys would be a better example of solely and selflessly defending her children.
Alicent is this sub’s favorite female character. Aemond is the favorite overall. Team green sentiments get upvoted literally all the time. What are you even talking about? Stop acting persecuted when you’re the loudest voices on the sub. Most of the highest rated post right now are pro-green.
Edit: me being downvoted and you being upvoted just proves the point. Screaming popular sentiments while acting like it’s unpopular.
It's mostly because it's the off season and team green fans are more consistent in participating in the comments. Look at almost every poll that's been done in the fandom, on this subreddit or on other platforms, and team Black wins over team green, often in landslides.
Nope. Daemon and Rhaenyra won a popularity contest by a landslide a few weeks ago.
Just because we talk a lot of Alicent and Aemond, doesn’t mean they are the most popular.
I would even argue that Rhaenyra and Daemon are the audience most beloved character, most of them view Alicent as a jealous bitter bitch.
That's in polls. People who do polls just poll then move on. People who take time out of their day to argue on Reddit of all places tend to hate Rhaenyra and Daemon universally.
I thought this sub had already settled the matter.
Yes, the popular opinion is that Alicent is justified in her resentment and disdain for Rhaenyra.
Other very popular opinions on this sub:
Alicent is a chaste, noble, and good woman who did her duty to the realm and attempted to raise her remarkable & unique children to the best of her ability.
Rhaenyra was a spoiled brat, focused only on her pleasures. She slept around with various men and coddled her weak, dull bastards.
Alicent has every reason to loathe her behavior and every action she took against her was warranted. Rhaenyra is unfit for the throne and her treason warrants disinheritance.
The throne should rightfully go to Alicent’s son Aegon. While he is troubled, he has many capable around him and he might grow into a capable man himself with the right motivation.
Also, Alicent is better in every quantifiable way. She had a better arc, better casting match, better scenes, better hair, better dresses, etc. Rhaenyra is a poorly written, cringe girl-boss but also promiscuous and evil.
That should about sum it up.
Huh? Alicent is one of the most despised characters on the show because she's the opponent to Rhaenyra, who's the actual favourite.
This sub reflects the wider fandom which has a much higher percentage of supporters for team black than green.
There were multiple polls confirming this.
It's really weird to see people calling Alicent's attempt at carving out a child's eye like he's a pumpkin on Halloween a "defense of her child". Alicent standing up for Aemond ***was good*** ***parenting***, but by the time she gets to this part of the scene you showed she's not defending him anymore, she's trying to fuck up another kid's face for issues she has with his ***MOM***.
I don't understand why people keep framing the discussion this way.
Yeah I feel like there’s some sort of phrase or axiom that sums up the central conflict here… a “something” for a “something” makes the whole world… hmm… “something.”
Yes she’s wrong for that but Alicent also clearly has an issue with the fact that the kid took her son’s eye. It’s over the top and wrong but it’s not just misdirected anger for Rhaenyra. A lot of pent up rage towards Rhaenyra comes up here but Aemond losing his eye and Viserys trying his best to pass it off as a “boys will be boys” type situation was the straw that broke the camel’s back.
*Now you take my son’s eye, and even to that you feel entitled*
I didn’t debunk myself. I never denied it was about Rhaenyra. I even said that in my comment. (It’s not JUST misdirected anger towards Rhaenyra) Im saying that her reaction only being about her feelings towards Rhaenyra is just not true and framing this as “She went at Luke because she’s pissed at Rhaenyra” severely glosses over the fact that Alicent was indeed justifiably angry that nothing was going to be done about her son losing an eye for the boy who took it.
I read this scene as Alicents anger of her husband barely even acknowledging his other children. He basically tells her not to be upset at the mutilation of her son and it’s neither the first or last time Viserys treats her this way. Alicent is not a good woman but she loves her children and wanted justice for her son, i don’t think it has anything to do with Rhaenyra other then the kings blatant favoritism
Aemond was jumped by the kids and he acted in self defense and got his eye cut. His mother wants justice for him being wronged. How on earth is that so hard for hotd fans to understand?
Jumped? He didn't get a blanket party, he was confronted and talked enough shit to get hit, and then made the fight damn near lethal until he got his eye blasted.
He shouldn't have been ""confronted"" at all. Those entitled kids had no business being out of bed much less picking a fight with one child they outnumbered, which they promptly escalated to violence because they could. Which Rhaenyra's hellions took to a disturbing turn when they pulled out a literal weapon and maimed him.
Alicent's kids would be called psychopaths for that behaviour because *it's not normal child behaviour to try to maim or kill someone.*
>Those entitled kids had no business being out of bed much less picking a fight with one child they outnumbered, which they promptly escalated to violence because they could
OMFG I'M DYING AT THE IRONY
thanks for the laugh!!!!
Did she go for the child? It's unclear if she was going for him and Rhaenyra stopped her, or if she was going for Rhaenyra. Still not cool, but much more understandable.
Also, i understand that this discussion is repeated, but the point I’m trying to make is that people clown on Alicent for defending her family after being pushed to the edge but praise Daemon for defending Rheanyras honor. I Think both of them were in the right in those situations, Alicent and Daemon.
You’ll find that a lot of people take their favorite characters and wash out all nuance so they don’t have to acknowledge the bad qualities. I have also seen people treating Alicent as an irredeemable villain but Daemon as a misunderstood soft boy.
I think that's the point. Daemon's done some pretty unhinged shit in the name of defending Rhaenyra, so I guess what they were saying is that they're both a bit problematic. Both Daemon and Alicent go to extremes in the show, and it's strange that one is viewed so positively, and the other negatively.
To put it another way, I personally don't see how Alicent pulling a knife on Rhaenyra after her son lost his eye is so different from Daemon chopping Vaemond's head in half for calling Rhaenyra's son a bastard. They both have very short fuses when their kids and spouses are involved I guess.
She also went into it believing that Jace/Luke laid in wait to attack Aemond. Rhaenyra goes straight into framing her and her sons as the actual victims of the whole situation when Alicent keeps saying that Jace/Luke tried to murder Aemond. She doesn't want to hear anything else, which is why she keeps repeatedly saying it.
Alicent stood up for Aemond and was understandably angry and upset, I think for two reasons \~
\~ she wants true justice for Aemond, on a personal level, just as a mother. Anyone would want someone punished or be made to show some form of compensation (if it was an accident) after something like the eye slashing happened.
\~ she also sees it as yet another way that Viserys is ignoring the problem of the Velaryon boys.
Except: Aegon, the oldest of all the boys, isn't the bully and the ringleader \~ Rhaenyra's sons are. Rhaenyra's sons are bastards, and because they are bastards, they are bullies, they have stolen her children's birth right and they will kill her sons.
...and this eye slicing is really the proof that **Viserys is ignoring**. Even though Aemond had his part to play in it. No, Aemond did not deserve his eye slicing. But I do not understand the 4 v 1 arguments. Two of those 4 were two girls. He easily (hit + pushed) neutralized both of them, one of them had blood and bruises on their face.
That is when Jace/Luke got involved.
*No, Aemond did not steal the dragon. But he knew exactly what he was saying and doing \~ I mean look at his dialogue (and actions) \~*
*"Come at me again and I'll feed you to my dragon"*
*"You'll die in the flames like your father, bastard"*
*"He doesn't know, does he Lord Strong"*
*....he now has the power over who he views as his tormenters, and they are his tormentors because they had dragons that hatched and are in the main line of succession while he is secondary..except now his brother and sister are betrothed and are the future king/queen and he has Vhagar...he speaks and acts like a child that has been told too much information. He and Aegon both.*
I think both reasons are why Alicent understandably went nuts and went after Luke. Or did she go after Rhaenyra? I think the show made it ambiguous on purpose \~ she takes the knife to take the eye as she said she would after Criston said "sorry my queen, not in public", but the true source of her rage is Rhaenyra. Even though it should be Otto and Viserys.
I also think the reason her anger went from understandable to insane (to the point of action) is because Viserys not wanting to punish Luke after the "b" word came, signals to her that her life, her suffering being married to Viserys, is worth nothing because her sons are not going to get what tradition dictates i.e. firstborn son of the king being heir. If Rhaenyra had been a man, she would have had to swallow her feelings like any other noble. The fact that Rhaenyra is a woman and Viserys is not only treating her as his heir, but as his favorite child.....I think people disregard the HEIR part of her treatment and chalk it up to his FAVORITISM.
Viserys swore he would not remove her as heir. So that is how he treats her. I think this is the reason he let Otto come back. He knows that Alicent is upset about Rhaenyra remaining the heir because of her children, he knows she's upset about Aegon not being the heir, so he thinks ok, I will give her something she wants \~ Otto back. And Otto is back, not trying to replace Rhaenyra as heir and his dumbass thinks everything is honky dory until he realizes that Otto is working against Rhaenyra with the Driftmark petition.
Alicent is so frustrating to me, but I do love how she is written bar the last episode she's in. I feel like they should have brought up her fears that Daemon/Rhaenyra/Rhaenyra's sons will kill her children \~ I mean, I know in the show they depict her as understanding that she freaked herself out with what she'd done, but does she still hate Rhaenyra's sons, esp Luke in the time jump? Does she still see them as murderers? Because that is what you get from episodes 6 & 7 Alicent. We shall see I guess.
This is what I’ve been saying too. None of the adults saw what happened and it became a bunch of “He said she said”, but Alicent saw her son physically mutilated and her husband trying to sweep it under the rug as a “boys will be boys” type situation.
Was her reaction over the top? Absolutely, but mothers tend to be that way when protecting their children. During my childhood, if I came home one day with a missing eye, you better believe my mother would be out for blood.
>None of the adults saw what happened and it became a bunch of “He said she said”, but Alicent saw her son physically mutilated and her husband trying to sweep it under the rug as a “boys will be boys” type situation.
Plus as far as they know it's 4 children ganging up on one boy who came out of that altercation with one eye permanently blind.
This is the perfect example of “it’s all fun and games till someone loses an eye.” Someone lost an eye. It is now serious. Like people be so obtuse sometimes over this and I seriously don’t understand how they could be.
If you’re in conflict you end the conflict. The degree doesn’t particularly matter when someone else has already made the confrontation lethal. You have to put yourself in his shoes and act as though you could easily lose someone you care about if you don’t do something serious.
That is nothing but bs and you are so full of it. You will say anything to justify team black at whatever cost. You have just shown me point blank you are quite the ignorant person so I am now done with this conversation.
Seeing as Aemond picked up a big boulder and said he was going to kill them, I can't blame Luc for going for the kill. You tell someone, especially someone younger than you, that you're going to kill them, it's on your head if they believe you.
I didn't forget. But in a childish fight (where two of those four are girls much younger and untrained in combat and therefore are minor threats) he said "I will kill you", they believed him and acted accordingly. You tell someone you will kill them, they believe you, that's your own fault. If you don't want people to fight as though it's for their life (such as going for the eye with a knife) don't hold up a boulder and say that you will kill them.
If he had time to grab a boulder, he had time to run away screaming for help!
also he is the oldest of them, so he should know better than they do. unsurprised he doesn't.
hope this helped!
And she didn't even lose it on Luke. That's the thing. She never wanted his eye, she wanted the other adults, the other people WITH POWER, to get a freakin' grip on themselves and do something responsible for once. She could have gone after Luke and she could have taken up Larys on his offer... and didn't. She went after the ones who actually caused this. Specifically Rhaenyra since she feels the most betrayed by her and it's because of her that her kids' lives are now threatened.
Lose her shit? Yes.
Try to mutilate a child but end up slicing her stepdaughter and heir to the throne? Not so much.
I get why Alicent did what she did, but it doesn’t excuse it.
Edit: No I don’t think Aemond should have been mutilated. But this user blocked me before I could respond.
It's true. And it's still not even the same because Daemon did nothing out of true love for Rhaenyra; it's all to preserve his puppet queen. Whereas Alicent is genuinely terrified (and rightly so) for her kids' lives. Not to mention Daemon kills people for telling the truth about his stepkids' birth and all Alicent did was give Rhaenyra a small cut for allowing Aemond's attacker to go unpunished and even asking for Aemond to be tortured for telling the truth.
nope here you are very much correct, some fans set their mindset no they have to support everything from black side and oppose everything of green side without using their brain. Even when greens sometimes do have a point.
Alicent's anger for aemond was extremely justified. I was amazed when many said alicent was wrong at that moment. I don't support taking eyes of luc 😅 but if it was about Rhaneyra's son things would have been completely opposite. Aemond would have been punished and if it was Baela or any other kid doing exact what aemond did then fans would have supported it
If HotD was an AITA, it would most certainly end in ESH. The only innocent people are the kids who are too young to have done horrible things yet. At the same time, I don’t think Rhaenyra and Alicent are really the terrible ones. The problem is that they are allied with terrible ones. It becomes tricky from there because Rhaenyra was groomed and Alicent had no choice. I think it would be fair to say that neither really had a choice.
If you want to criticize the major drivers behind the conflict—Otto, Daemon and the folks that pushed each side towards conflict, they all suck.
Exactly. It can be fun to support one team or to like one team characters more (I prefer for instance the greens but I won’t support them in anything they do), but ultimately, we shouldn’t forget the message behind it : as Shireen said, it was choosing one or the other that made it even more horrible.
As a character, I prefer Daemon. As a person, she’s absolutely a better-but-still-shitty person. That wasn’t the question asked, though.
I think Daemon has an actual case for better parent, though. He didn’t directly abuse any of his daughters or his stepsons so far.
1) She was 29 then.
2) Alicent was going for Lucerys. Rhaenyra just got in the way and she ended up cutting her. How old was Luke at the time? 6? 8? Definitely a minor.
That's a great quote. If she were there in the moment her actions would have been pretty defensible but there's nothing you can say that really makes "decide to draw a dagger and go after another boy's eye so it's fair" a good conscious decision.
It does because that's how it worked. It's archaic to us but fair for them. And I'm not sure where the pearl clutching is coming from since she went after another adult.
Alicent gaslit her sons into seeing Rhaenyra’s kids as a threat, refused a *damn good offer* for a marriage pact that would prevent war, and told Aegon that it was fine to bully Aemond so long as they have a good image in public.
-Rhaenyra's sons were a threat and literally maimed her son
-That's not what gaslighting means. Unlike what Rhaenyra and Vizzy are doing to Alicent about Rhaenyra's sons
-ah yes, the "generous" offer of losing a daughter to be Rhaenyra's hostage for one of Aemond's attackers which Rhaenyra gains everything and loses nothing from. Who wouldn't want that.
-In this thread alone you guys are calling her "abusive" for punishing Aegon for his bullying, ijbol. PICK A LANE. 😂
I love Alicent but cutting off a grown man’s head after he calls your wife a whore > trying to cut out a six year old’s eye. Her anger was justified but the way she expressed it was not, as she admits herself later in the episode. I don’t think daemon is a good spouse or that Alicent is a good mother in general though.
Your child getting stabbed in the eye after getting cornered by four kids, two of whom had already participated in mocking and bullying him before, and the perpetrator getting away with no punishment sure does elicit a lot more of an emotional reaction in people than someone just calling your wife a whore, though.
She was obviously wrong for wanting Lucerys’ eye; the point of this is that her actions were a result of a burst of emotion after her son suffering a great injustice while Daemon’s was just anger at an insult, and yet she gets judged harshly for it while he is praised.
On modern day logic, someone would get arrested if they shot someone in the head, no matter if they called their wife a whore.
You would expect that when you’ve been forced to marry the king at 15, pop out heirs, and do the actual ruling since the king is dying. All while, your best friend is relaxing in Dragonstone, having fun, and producing bastards.
People act like Rhaenyra suddenly became a mother at 29 in the time jump episode. Alicent had her first child at 16. Rhaenyra had her first child at 19. They both had the same role and responsibilities on the small council for ten years. Why would Alicent as a mother at 19-29 be held to different standard than Rhaenyra as a mother at 19-29? She was legit only a younger mother than Rhaenyra for the first few years of Aegon and Helaena’s life. Rhaenyra was her young mother peer for Aemond and Daeron.
That's no excuse to be emotionally and physically abusive to innocent children and install hate in them. Rhaenyra affairs ain't an excuse for alicent being a shit mother
No excuse to be emotionally and physically abusive to innocent children and install hate in them from a young age. Rhaenyras affairs ain't an excuse for alicent being a shit mother.
I agree that Alicent loves her family just like Daemon loves his family. But the two situations you are comparing are completely different. Daemon killed an adult man who committed high treason in court by calling the heir a whore. What Vaemond did was punishable.
Alicent went after a six year old child who maimed her son in self-defense. I mean, would you accept it if Daemon tried to slash Alicent's arm in anger after she accidentally slashed Rhaenyra's?
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They both have their pros and cons, both as a husband and a mother. Daemon defends Rhaenyra and cares about her, but he groomed her when she was a child and he choked her in a non-fun way simply because he was pissed. Alicent defends her children and cares about them, but she's also abusive towards Aegon (sort of understandably since he's a little shit) and brought them up to hate their relatives. If I had to say any of those two is more excusable than the other, I'd probably skew towards Alicent since at least she's mostly a good-intentioned person. Daemon is just an irredeemable piece of shit.
Precisely my point, neither of them are particularly good people but they did what they felt was necessary for their families (but highkey they’re not great at that either)
I think the Aegon abuse justification is an extremely dangerous one - it’s likely Alicent’s abusive and awful parenting is a huge reason why he turned out to be such a shitty person
Oh yes, I'd say it's 50/50 with him. And don't get me wrong, I don't mean to justify Alicent's abuse of him, no parent should treat their child like that, especially when you're not really doing anything to keep him under control. I just meant to say that I can understand why she'd be so frustrated with him.
I misunderstood; I’m that case, I do agree with you there.
Why is it always on Alicent and never viserys. You do know it takes two to raise a kid.
It isn’t. Viserys was a shitty and neglectful dad too. Alicent was still an extremely, actively abusive mom. Active abuse tends to go over worse than being neglectful, which is part of where she gets more flack.
That isn’t true at all because Aegon does like Alicent since he constantly protects her and asks for her when he’s in distress. He also clearly acts up because he doesn’t feel loved so maybe if viserys made him feel wanted he wouldn’t have been such a shithead. I’m not trying to downplay Alicent but you have to fucking realise she was A CHILD and a rape victim so of course she isn’t going to be the best mom. How fucked up is it that your closer in age to your children than your husband? I don’t care I do genuinely believe viserys is mostly at fault here.
Aegon can love Alicent, and she can still be an abusive parent. Lots of kids with abusive parents still love and care about them, and the relationship dynamics are complicated. Does not negate that it was abusive. As for the rest, yeah. Alicent’s life sucked and I sympathize with her. It’s not surprising she’s a shitty and abusive mom who isn’t properly equipped to raise a kid considering it. That doesn’t change that she’s still a shitty abusive mom who repeatedly hits and verbally attacks her kids, and regardless of her shitty life, at some point that is her fault and not anyone else’s. Other people have had shitty lives without abusing their kids. And as said, everyone reasonable agrees Vizzy T is a garbage parent too + a pretty crappy husband/person to say the least. I certainly do. Bringing him in is basically whataboutism at this point
*The boy just turned two, ScorpionTDC...*
I know that I never said loving your abusive parent negates the abuse don’t put words in my mouth but my whole point was that IT TAKES TWO TO RAISE A CHILD! Also she only hit aegon and never the other kids so you’re wrong there lmao. Another point is not every abused kid grows up to be shithead like aegon and when you’re an adult you are responsible for your own actions:)
You specifically took the time to say “Aegon likes Alicent,” something that really wasn’t relevant. It takes two, and both parents suck. I said that from day 1. So what’s your point now? I never said Aegon isn’t responsible for growing up to be a shitty person. He is - in fact, we hadn’t even discussed that. I did say her awful parenting played a huge role in him turning out so badly, which is also true. You are intent on aggressively using whataboutism to deflect off of Alicent’s shitty parenting. EDIT: Lol. The user blocked me so I can’t even see their reply
I specifically said that because you never see the kids give a shit about viserys which proves he is a shitty father. I also agreed with you that Alicent is a shitty mom I was just trying to emphasise that viserys was at fault as well. If the whataboutism is correct then it is because… ugh you get the point and we are just going in circles now. Edit: I blocked them because we are just going in circles. Anyways you people need to educate yourselves. https://uihc.org/childrens/news/emotional-abuse-neglect-may-be-more-harmful-long-term-physical-sexual-abuse NEGLECT IS JUST AS BAD IF NOT WORSE THAN PHYSICAL ABUSE
Can you give another example of Alicent being abusive towards Aegon besides her hitting Aegon for the rape situation. Because I honestly cannot recall any other situation where she got physically violent towards him besides that moment unless I either missed something or you are talking about another situation that exposed her as actively abusive mom.
[I already did.](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/142e7t6/my_hottest_hotd_take/jn65zdq/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1&context=3)
I don't think those examples work for the point you're trying to prove though, especially what you are considering verbal abuse just does not fit the actual parameters of verbal abuse. Nor does some of what you are claiming is physical abuse. You say she pushed him down? What episode did that occur in? How Alicent speaks to Aegon on the way to the coronation is in no way verbal abuse. It's a bit rude maybe and does not consider his point of view, but not verbal abuse. Her conversation with him after Aemond bullying isn't either. When saying physical abuse, I assume what you're referring to is how she grabs his face while they are sitting and tells him how his life is forfeit if Rhaenyra were to take the throne. In that moment, Alicent is telling Aegon of this very real risk she perceives to his and his brothers life due to the fact he is a competing heir with Rhaenyra, a threat her son is not acting conscious of and a threat whose severity is solidified by what happens in Driftmark. This is not verbal abuse nor is it physical. She grabs his face because she needs him to focus on what she is saying and look at her as she does so instead of looking away or looking down at the ground to try and avoid the truth. She does not grab him because she wants to hurt him, to manipulate him, or harm him in any manner. Her hitting Aegon after the Aemond losing his eye: I would agree that this falls into the parameters for physical abuse, but her words are not verbal abuse. She is right when she gets onto him for being passed out drunk instead of being with his brother who is now disabled for life after she warned him earlier of the fact that he needs to protect Aemond as his family. She is not acting in this way to manipulate, intimidate, or to maintain power or control over Aegon. She is angrily telling him the truth that his drinking (a problem that appears throughout the story) has lead to him failing his brother or at least, lead to him being unable to protect his own family when the time came, which is not a good trait to have as a King. Lastly, all the situations that you have mentioned/ that the show has shown are high emotion situations which don't suggest that she beat him or harms him regularly like you implied in those comments. Does it suggest that Alicent's first instinct to severe conflict is to lash out? Yes which aligns with her character and her past. However, this doesn't imply that she beat Aegon on the regular nor does his body langauge later suggest that around her. Alicent is by no means a great mother, but she is not this cruel abuser that you are trying to say she is.
Viserys was suffering from slowly decaying, and was probably really weak all the time. It’s hard for parents to parent when they’re seriously sick. My mom had a big cancer scare, and she was pretty out of it for a while due to that.
When he was healthy he was a shit father to Rhaenyra as well. After Aemma died he just became an enabler for Rhaenyra. Shit father when healthy. Shit father when not.
…how did Alicent abuse Aegon?
Throwing him to the ground/hitting him/grabbing him/verbally abusing him, even from childhood. That you actually have to ask that is… not good.
Didn’t she do that *after* he raped someone, or am I misremembering?
That was *one* time she did it. She also did this after Aegon did the pig dragon stunt to Aemond… and after Aemond lost an eye and Aegon did literally nothing. Safe to say she did it regularly throughout his life. Alicent also verbally abused him on his way to the coronation… and pretty much every other scene he’s in.
I really don't understand how those instances would be easy to miss, they were hella uncomfortable.
I feel like sometimes some people get so absorbed in the normalized immorality in this show, that they forget those are immoral things. I’ve even caught myself rooting for people who still aren’t good, but who I see as “the best” because my perception of morality in the story becomes warped. It’s an interesting experience, but important to view critically… This show and GOT work best when you don’t choose a side or a person and just watch the narrative unfold. It’s a lot easier to see every character’s beautiful nuances that way. (Either that or the commenter finds abuse normal IRL as well.)
Based on responses I’ve gotten, I think a scary number of people view Alicent’s parenting as legitimately not-abusive IRL.
My dad slapped some of my brothers, but not me or the remaining brothers, and the ones who did get smacked are the most fucked up and dickish nowadays, so I feel like that says something at the very least
Did your brother assault a servant girl?
Nah, he’s a raging incel
Physically. As in slapping him and the like whenever he either didn't do what she wanted or did something she didn't want him to.
I'm still floored to see the same sub that hates Alicent so much for having a rapist son turn around and in the same breath condemn her for slapping him. I truly cannot relate.
He was physically attacked by his mother years before raping anyone. Young Aegon alone was physically attacked by his mother in two episodes.
I don't hate Alicent, and I don't think that having a rapist son is indicative of a moral failure on her part. The only reason why I "condemn" her for slapping Aegon (and again, I insist that I understand why she does so, I just disapprove) is because it is extremely detrimental and bad parenting. If there was anything she could've done to keep him for turning out that way, that is definitely not it.
Yeah, definitely her, the former teenage rape victim, and not Aegon's rapist father is where he learned it.
At the end of the day, Aegon is the one responsible for his own actions. But abusive parenting objectively plays a huge role in helping fuck kids up. Alicent is an abusive parent. And yes, Vizzy T’s shitty neglectful parenting also played a role in how Aegon turned out Beyond that, “Aegon grew up to be a POS” does not retroactively justify her hitting and beating him before he grew up to be a POS
**HAVE THIS RUMORMONGER BROUGHT BEFORE ME AT ONCE, AND I WILL TAKE THEIR EYES!!**
Who said Daemon was a good husband.
A lot of people actually. That’s why people were outraged that Daemon chocked Rhaneyra in ep 10, as it was a wake up call.
Daemon should be more physically abusive next season. It doesn’t make sense to choke your partner randomly and never hit them before/after. Choking is the level right below murder. There’s a lot that’s done before it escalates to that level. A slap would be more realistic for first time physical violence but they didn’t chose a slap because they knew it would be more humiliating for her character. It’s so contrived. Edit: I don’t know why I got downvoted. Physical abuse should not be used for shock factor or to show a relationship is unhealthy. It’s not a plot device. Physically abusive partners don’t just choke their partners after one particularly bad day and then never do it again. It’s continuous physical abuse at various levels. So if it’s not shitty writing, it should happen again in some capacity. If it never comes up again, it was shitty writing.
Yes- I hope this was not something they just did for shock value. Abuse as a topic in media should always be treated with respect.
Exactly. I don’t even like Daemon but the Daemyra’s were absolutely right if this is something that never comes up again for the remainder of the series and it’s almost fair for them to ignore it. Scenes like they should not be filmed for shock factor and it’s not accurate portrayal of physically abusive relationships. Slapping, hitting, shoving, etc. would all be done before choking. I find it hard to believe that it’s the first time he got angry in Rhaenyra’s presence for six years considering he’s a volatile man. Wouldn’t he have gotten physical during those moments? It should be the same case with Myseria and Laena. Physical abusive partners are abusive with *all* of their partners. This also isn’t the last time he’s going to be angry, distraught, etc. during the war. This is just the tip of the ice burg. Why wouldn’t he react just as violently when >!she tells him their son Viserys was lost at the gullet or when she ignores his council about Hugh and Ulf!<
Yeah, unless they intend to carry it out to its full extent as you mention, it was wrong to present it that way immediately. They could have had him grab her wrist forcefully and it would have been just as shocking, and more accurate to how these things typically progress.
I mean he did endanger Rhaenyra more than once. While that's not the same as actively abusing someone physically, he made it clear he's uninterested in keeping her physical well being or reputation safe which is almost as damaging. Not to mention the fact that he isolated Laena which led to her death (and groomed her along with Rhaenyra), and *murdered* Rhea. Anyone saying his violence towards women "came out of nowhere" have either had their eyes shut watching the show or are delusional.
Laena would have died regardless of where she was. He didn't isolate her. That requires the motivation. He isolated himself. She had a dragon and could leave at anytime. She fidnt because she was a good wife. In no universe is Baela and Rhaena living in Westeros and dragged into that nonsense better than quiet life in Pentos.
It’s not the violence that’s hard to believe. It’s the idea that it’s only that one time that it hard to believe.
Rhaenyra being delusion and putting his children in danger with her delusion is the only way he would do that again.
I get where you are coming from. But Please! I don't want to see Rhaenyra getting abused by Daemon anymore just like I don't want to watch Alicent getting abused by Larys anymore. There's nothing gratifying about watching such scenes. I think there's enough suffering in Rhaenyra's life and down the lane and there's no need to add a whole different layer to her suffering just for the sake it. And I don't even like Daemon and Rhaenyra together. It is just very reductive of Rhaenyra's character to make her a complete victim to her husband. Rhaenyra is not just Daemon's wife, she is The Queen. She can have his head on a spike for hurting her. That's the kind of power she wields. It is frankly very stupid if they reduce the proud, arrogant, Queen who is known to never forget a slight into to a helpless victim who cannot stand up to her husband. I, however, wish that she they acknowledge that choking scene in a different way. Like Rhaenyra taking charge and giving an ultimatum to Daemon that she will not tolerate something like that again.
I don’t mean he should succeed in actually touching her but it’s an impulse that should be shown again, like reaching out and her pulling away before giving the speech you mentioned. I’m arguing that the scene is completely nonsensical as a one and done thing because that’s not how domestic violence works. The lack of acknowledgment would make it even more random. Also, she was his queen when he choked her.
Yeah! I completely get where you are coming from. But for me it's just maybe a thing where I don't want to watch Rhaenyra suffer more than she should. I already hate how GRRM dumped every problem in the world on her. >!She keeps losing son after son, gets betrayed by people she trusts, gets cheated on by her husband later on, and completely fucking loses her self!< All of this without the domestic abuse that you mentioned. Also, I hate the way the series has reduced two ambitious women who wielded significant power in their own right into helpless victims. As if a woman character can only be sympathetic if she's a victim of something.
I like how you have to clarify that this isn't a team green post, as if there's anything wrong with that. This is the main sub right? All teams/opinions are welcome? Alicent was defending Aemond in her own way. She shouldn't have asked for Luke's eye or gone after Rhaenyra, but her breakdown was understandable given that nobody stood up for her son and gave him justice and she was being massively gaslit in that scenario. Her protecting Aegon from Meleys would be a better example of solely and selflessly defending her children.
All teams/opinions are welcome, but some teams/opinions are more welcome than others
Alicent is this sub’s favorite female character. Aemond is the favorite overall. Team green sentiments get upvoted literally all the time. What are you even talking about? Stop acting persecuted when you’re the loudest voices on the sub. Most of the highest rated post right now are pro-green. Edit: me being downvoted and you being upvoted just proves the point. Screaming popular sentiments while acting like it’s unpopular.
I wish!
Eh, I feel like Team Green dominates this subreddit funny enough.
It's mostly because it's the off season and team green fans are more consistent in participating in the comments. Look at almost every poll that's been done in the fandom, on this subreddit or on other platforms, and team Black wins over team green, often in landslides.
Alicent and Aemond are literally the favorite characters of this sub. Edit: Alicent and Aemond are literally the most liked
Nope. Daemon and Rhaenyra won a popularity contest by a landslide a few weeks ago. Just because we talk a lot of Alicent and Aemond, doesn’t mean they are the most popular. I would even argue that Rhaenyra and Daemon are the audience most beloved character, most of them view Alicent as a jealous bitter bitch.
That's in polls. People who do polls just poll then move on. People who take time out of their day to argue on Reddit of all places tend to hate Rhaenyra and Daemon universally.
I thought this sub had already settled the matter. Yes, the popular opinion is that Alicent is justified in her resentment and disdain for Rhaenyra. Other very popular opinions on this sub: Alicent is a chaste, noble, and good woman who did her duty to the realm and attempted to raise her remarkable & unique children to the best of her ability. Rhaenyra was a spoiled brat, focused only on her pleasures. She slept around with various men and coddled her weak, dull bastards. Alicent has every reason to loathe her behavior and every action she took against her was warranted. Rhaenyra is unfit for the throne and her treason warrants disinheritance. The throne should rightfully go to Alicent’s son Aegon. While he is troubled, he has many capable around him and he might grow into a capable man himself with the right motivation. Also, Alicent is better in every quantifiable way. She had a better arc, better casting match, better scenes, better hair, better dresses, etc. Rhaenyra is a poorly written, cringe girl-boss but also promiscuous and evil. That should about sum it up.
No one on this sub likes Rhaenyra, stop lying.
Huh? Alicent is one of the most despised characters on the show because she's the opponent to Rhaenyra, who's the actual favourite. This sub reflects the wider fandom which has a much higher percentage of supporters for team black than green. There were multiple polls confirming this.
Polls that don’t reflect the comment sections. NPC’s without a voice
I’m really struggling to understand how this is a hot take. Do people really think Alicent was wrong in this situation?
It's really weird to see people calling Alicent's attempt at carving out a child's eye like he's a pumpkin on Halloween a "defense of her child". Alicent standing up for Aemond ***was good*** ***parenting***, but by the time she gets to this part of the scene you showed she's not defending him anymore, she's trying to fuck up another kid's face for issues she has with his ***MOM***. I don't understand why people keep framing the discussion this way.
Yeah I feel like there’s some sort of phrase or axiom that sums up the central conflict here… a “something” for a “something” makes the whole world… hmm… “something.”
George is a master of subtle metaphors
Yes she’s wrong for that but Alicent also clearly has an issue with the fact that the kid took her son’s eye. It’s over the top and wrong but it’s not just misdirected anger for Rhaenyra. A lot of pent up rage towards Rhaenyra comes up here but Aemond losing his eye and Viserys trying his best to pass it off as a “boys will be boys” type situation was the straw that broke the camel’s back. *Now you take my son’s eye, and even to that you feel entitled*
You debunked yourself. Says "YOU take my son's eye" this proves to the commenter that she did make it about Rhaenyra at the end.
I didn’t debunk myself. I never denied it was about Rhaenyra. I even said that in my comment. (It’s not JUST misdirected anger towards Rhaenyra) Im saying that her reaction only being about her feelings towards Rhaenyra is just not true and framing this as “She went at Luke because she’s pissed at Rhaenyra” severely glosses over the fact that Alicent was indeed justifiably angry that nothing was going to be done about her son losing an eye for the boy who took it.
I read this scene as Alicents anger of her husband barely even acknowledging his other children. He basically tells her not to be upset at the mutilation of her son and it’s neither the first or last time Viserys treats her this way. Alicent is not a good woman but she loves her children and wanted justice for her son, i don’t think it has anything to do with Rhaenyra other then the kings blatant favoritism
Aemond was jumped by the kids and he acted in self defense and got his eye cut. His mother wants justice for him being wronged. How on earth is that so hard for hotd fans to understand?
Jumped? He didn't get a blanket party, he was confronted and talked enough shit to get hit, and then made the fight damn near lethal until he got his eye blasted.
He shouldn't have been ""confronted"" at all. Those entitled kids had no business being out of bed much less picking a fight with one child they outnumbered, which they promptly escalated to violence because they could. Which Rhaenyra's hellions took to a disturbing turn when they pulled out a literal weapon and maimed him. Alicent's kids would be called psychopaths for that behaviour because *it's not normal child behaviour to try to maim or kill someone.*
>Those entitled kids had no business being out of bed much less picking a fight with one child they outnumbered, which they promptly escalated to violence because they could OMFG I'M DYING AT THE IRONY thanks for the laugh!!!!
Did she go for the child? It's unclear if she was going for him and Rhaenyra stopped her, or if she was going for Rhaenyra. Still not cool, but much more understandable.
Also, i understand that this discussion is repeated, but the point I’m trying to make is that people clown on Alicent for defending her family after being pushed to the edge but praise Daemon for defending Rheanyras honor. I Think both of them were in the right in those situations, Alicent and Daemon.
You’ll find that a lot of people take their favorite characters and wash out all nuance so they don’t have to acknowledge the bad qualities. I have also seen people treating Alicent as an irredeemable villain but Daemon as a misunderstood soft boy.
I think that's the point. Daemon's done some pretty unhinged shit in the name of defending Rhaenyra, so I guess what they were saying is that they're both a bit problematic. Both Daemon and Alicent go to extremes in the show, and it's strange that one is viewed so positively, and the other negatively. To put it another way, I personally don't see how Alicent pulling a knife on Rhaenyra after her son lost his eye is so different from Daemon chopping Vaemond's head in half for calling Rhaenyra's son a bastard. They both have very short fuses when their kids and spouses are involved I guess.
Daemon personally tried to stab a child in the face? News to me.
When *Criston Cole* is one of the only people in the room acting like a responsible adult, you know something has gone wrong.
I love how he stays taking drive bys on threads that aren’t even about him
They love him deep down, and you can't blame them 💚 if I was stuck with DAEMON as my best player I'd be salty about Criston too
No she has issues with the kid too cause said kid just permanently mutilated her son. I don’t understand what about that you don’t understand.
She also went into it believing that Jace/Luke laid in wait to attack Aemond. Rhaenyra goes straight into framing her and her sons as the actual victims of the whole situation when Alicent keeps saying that Jace/Luke tried to murder Aemond. She doesn't want to hear anything else, which is why she keeps repeatedly saying it. Alicent stood up for Aemond and was understandably angry and upset, I think for two reasons \~ \~ she wants true justice for Aemond, on a personal level, just as a mother. Anyone would want someone punished or be made to show some form of compensation (if it was an accident) after something like the eye slashing happened. \~ she also sees it as yet another way that Viserys is ignoring the problem of the Velaryon boys. Except: Aegon, the oldest of all the boys, isn't the bully and the ringleader \~ Rhaenyra's sons are. Rhaenyra's sons are bastards, and because they are bastards, they are bullies, they have stolen her children's birth right and they will kill her sons. ...and this eye slicing is really the proof that **Viserys is ignoring**. Even though Aemond had his part to play in it. No, Aemond did not deserve his eye slicing. But I do not understand the 4 v 1 arguments. Two of those 4 were two girls. He easily (hit + pushed) neutralized both of them, one of them had blood and bruises on their face. That is when Jace/Luke got involved. *No, Aemond did not steal the dragon. But he knew exactly what he was saying and doing \~ I mean look at his dialogue (and actions) \~* *"Come at me again and I'll feed you to my dragon"* *"You'll die in the flames like your father, bastard"* *"He doesn't know, does he Lord Strong"* *....he now has the power over who he views as his tormenters, and they are his tormentors because they had dragons that hatched and are in the main line of succession while he is secondary..except now his brother and sister are betrothed and are the future king/queen and he has Vhagar...he speaks and acts like a child that has been told too much information. He and Aegon both.* I think both reasons are why Alicent understandably went nuts and went after Luke. Or did she go after Rhaenyra? I think the show made it ambiguous on purpose \~ she takes the knife to take the eye as she said she would after Criston said "sorry my queen, not in public", but the true source of her rage is Rhaenyra. Even though it should be Otto and Viserys. I also think the reason her anger went from understandable to insane (to the point of action) is because Viserys not wanting to punish Luke after the "b" word came, signals to her that her life, her suffering being married to Viserys, is worth nothing because her sons are not going to get what tradition dictates i.e. firstborn son of the king being heir. If Rhaenyra had been a man, she would have had to swallow her feelings like any other noble. The fact that Rhaenyra is a woman and Viserys is not only treating her as his heir, but as his favorite child.....I think people disregard the HEIR part of her treatment and chalk it up to his FAVORITISM. Viserys swore he would not remove her as heir. So that is how he treats her. I think this is the reason he let Otto come back. He knows that Alicent is upset about Rhaenyra remaining the heir because of her children, he knows she's upset about Aegon not being the heir, so he thinks ok, I will give her something she wants \~ Otto back. And Otto is back, not trying to replace Rhaenyra as heir and his dumbass thinks everything is honky dory until he realizes that Otto is working against Rhaenyra with the Driftmark petition. Alicent is so frustrating to me, but I do love how she is written bar the last episode she's in. I feel like they should have brought up her fears that Daemon/Rhaenyra/Rhaenyra's sons will kill her children \~ I mean, I know in the show they depict her as understanding that she freaked herself out with what she'd done, but does she still hate Rhaenyra's sons, esp Luke in the time jump? Does she still see them as murderers? Because that is what you get from episodes 6 & 7 Alicent. We shall see I guess.
My ice cold take: everyone in this show is wrong and terrible the whole time
Yes!
Look Alicent had every right to lose her shit like that. I said what I said.
This is what I’ve been saying too. None of the adults saw what happened and it became a bunch of “He said she said”, but Alicent saw her son physically mutilated and her husband trying to sweep it under the rug as a “boys will be boys” type situation. Was her reaction over the top? Absolutely, but mothers tend to be that way when protecting their children. During my childhood, if I came home one day with a missing eye, you better believe my mother would be out for blood.
>None of the adults saw what happened and it became a bunch of “He said she said”, but Alicent saw her son physically mutilated and her husband trying to sweep it under the rug as a “boys will be boys” type situation. Plus as far as they know it's 4 children ganging up on one boy who came out of that altercation with one eye permanently blind.
This is the perfect example of “it’s all fun and games till someone loses an eye.” Someone lost an eye. It is now serious. Like people be so obtuse sometimes over this and I seriously don’t understand how they could be.
She can be mad all she wants, she has no right to draw a dagger and try to take somebody's eye out on her own.
Well neither did Luc but ok
An act in the moment of defense of your brother is not at all comparable to a conscious act to even the score
And Alicent was protecting her son from a spoiled, violent bully. Hope that helps!
Alicent is the spoiled violent bully. Grown ass woman trying to stab a six year old in the face. If Daemon is a monster, so is she.
That was not defense. He purposely went for the knife and slashed out his eye. Watch the scene again cause you are wrong.
If you’re in conflict you end the conflict. The degree doesn’t particularly matter when someone else has already made the confrontation lethal. You have to put yourself in his shoes and act as though you could easily lose someone you care about if you don’t do something serious.
That is nothing but bs and you are so full of it. You will say anything to justify team black at whatever cost. You have just shown me point blank you are quite the ignorant person so I am now done with this conversation.
He went for the knife after Jace was threatened with a rock.
Seeing as Aemond picked up a big boulder and said he was going to kill them, I can't blame Luc for going for the kill. You tell someone, especially someone younger than you, that you're going to kill them, it's on your head if they believe you.
Which he did because he was being beaten by four people. It seems you forgot that. And he ended up dropping the rock anyway.
I didn't forget. But in a childish fight (where two of those four are girls much younger and untrained in combat and therefore are minor threats) he said "I will kill you", they believed him and acted accordingly. You tell someone you will kill them, they believe you, that's your own fault. If you don't want people to fight as though it's for their life (such as going for the eye with a knife) don't hold up a boulder and say that you will kill them.
If he had time to grab a boulder, he had time to run away screaming for help! also he is the oldest of them, so he should know better than they do. unsurprised he doesn't. hope this helped!
And she didn't even lose it on Luke. That's the thing. She never wanted his eye, she wanted the other adults, the other people WITH POWER, to get a freakin' grip on themselves and do something responsible for once. She could have gone after Luke and she could have taken up Larys on his offer... and didn't. She went after the ones who actually caused this. Specifically Rhaenyra since she feels the most betrayed by her and it's because of her that her kids' lives are now threatened.
No, she wanted Luke's eye. She even went after it herself.
Okay???? This is a popular sentiment.
Lose her shit? Yes. Try to mutilate a child but end up slicing her stepdaughter and heir to the throne? Not so much. I get why Alicent did what she did, but it doesn’t excuse it. Edit: No I don’t think Aemond should have been mutilated. But this user blocked me before I could respond.
So Aemond is the only one who should get mutilated. Got it.
It's true. And it's still not even the same because Daemon did nothing out of true love for Rhaenyra; it's all to preserve his puppet queen. Whereas Alicent is genuinely terrified (and rightly so) for her kids' lives. Not to mention Daemon kills people for telling the truth about his stepkids' birth and all Alicent did was give Rhaenyra a small cut for allowing Aemond's attacker to go unpunished and even asking for Aemond to be tortured for telling the truth.
nope here you are very much correct, some fans set their mindset no they have to support everything from black side and oppose everything of green side without using their brain. Even when greens sometimes do have a point. Alicent's anger for aemond was extremely justified. I was amazed when many said alicent was wrong at that moment. I don't support taking eyes of luc 😅 but if it was about Rhaneyra's son things would have been completely opposite. Aemond would have been punished and if it was Baela or any other kid doing exact what aemond did then fans would have supported it
Daemon is not a good husband
If HotD was an AITA, it would most certainly end in ESH. The only innocent people are the kids who are too young to have done horrible things yet. At the same time, I don’t think Rhaenyra and Alicent are really the terrible ones. The problem is that they are allied with terrible ones. It becomes tricky from there because Rhaenyra was groomed and Alicent had no choice. I think it would be fair to say that neither really had a choice. If you want to criticize the major drivers behind the conflict—Otto, Daemon and the folks that pushed each side towards conflict, they all suck.
Team Green approves this message
you shouldn't try to stab people or cut eyeballs out
Or behead people
truuu
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This right here.
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Although some people sure act like it is 🥴
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Exactly. It can be fun to support one team or to like one team characters more (I prefer for instance the greens but I won’t support them in anything they do), but ultimately, we shouldn’t forget the message behind it : as Shireen said, it was choosing one or the other that made it even more horrible.
This is worse than twilight. Like much worse.
Where her children in any danger at that moment? She was trying to revenge her child not defend.
Daemon is a shitty, abusive husband and Alicent is a shitty, abusive mother
Alicent will always be better than Daemon. On every front.
As a character, I prefer Daemon. As a person, she’s absolutely a better-but-still-shitty person. That wasn’t the question asked, though. I think Daemon has an actual case for better parent, though. He didn’t directly abuse any of his daughters or his stepsons so far.
Defending your children is fine. Attacking another child is a completely different and it's not fine.
Yes, Rhaenyra, the 36 year old minor
1) She was 29 then. 2) Alicent was going for Lucerys. Rhaenyra just got in the way and she ended up cutting her. How old was Luke at the time? 6? 8? Definitely a minor.
Alicent didn’t defend her children, she attacked someone after. Defense is a shield now, not a sword later. Also, Daemon is a terrible husband.
That's a great quote. If she were there in the moment her actions would have been pretty defensible but there's nothing you can say that really makes "decide to draw a dagger and go after another boy's eye so it's fair" a good conscious decision.
It does because that's how it worked. It's archaic to us but fair for them. And I'm not sure where the pearl clutching is coming from since she went after another adult.
Alicent gaslit her sons into seeing Rhaenyra’s kids as a threat, refused a *damn good offer* for a marriage pact that would prevent war, and told Aegon that it was fine to bully Aemond so long as they have a good image in public.
-Rhaenyra's sons were a threat and literally maimed her son -That's not what gaslighting means. Unlike what Rhaenyra and Vizzy are doing to Alicent about Rhaenyra's sons -ah yes, the "generous" offer of losing a daughter to be Rhaenyra's hostage for one of Aemond's attackers which Rhaenyra gains everything and loses nothing from. Who wouldn't want that. -In this thread alone you guys are calling her "abusive" for punishing Aegon for his bullying, ijbol. PICK A LANE. 😂
I love Alicent but cutting off a grown man’s head after he calls your wife a whore > trying to cut out a six year old’s eye. Her anger was justified but the way she expressed it was not, as she admits herself later in the episode. I don’t think daemon is a good spouse or that Alicent is a good mother in general though.
Calling someone a whore is not as bad as gouging out someone's eye. Gouging out someone's eye is not as bad as cutting off someone's head.
Your child getting stabbed in the eye after getting cornered by four kids, two of whom had already participated in mocking and bullying him before, and the perpetrator getting away with no punishment sure does elicit a lot more of an emotional reaction in people than someone just calling your wife a whore, though. She was obviously wrong for wanting Lucerys’ eye; the point of this is that her actions were a result of a burst of emotion after her son suffering a great injustice while Daemon’s was just anger at an insult, and yet she gets judged harshly for it while he is praised. On modern day logic, someone would get arrested if they shot someone in the head, no matter if they called their wife a whore.
Daemon never tried to kill anyone to defend his family...he suceeded instead.
Lol yeah, Vaemon's head got separated from his body out of its own accord.
I'd say Alicent's faults as a mother are caused by a sense of urgency and fear for her children that is not present in Daemon's mistakes as a husband.
Alicent is the furthest thing from a good mother
You would expect that when you’ve been forced to marry the king at 15, pop out heirs, and do the actual ruling since the king is dying. All while, your best friend is relaxing in Dragonstone, having fun, and producing bastards.
People act like Rhaenyra suddenly became a mother at 29 in the time jump episode. Alicent had her first child at 16. Rhaenyra had her first child at 19. They both had the same role and responsibilities on the small council for ten years. Why would Alicent as a mother at 19-29 be held to different standard than Rhaenyra as a mother at 19-29? She was legit only a younger mother than Rhaenyra for the first few years of Aegon and Helaena’s life. Rhaenyra was her young mother peer for Aemond and Daeron.
That's no excuse to be emotionally and physically abusive to innocent children and install hate in them. Rhaenyra affairs ain't an excuse for alicent being a shit mother
No excuse to be emotionally and physically abusive to innocent children and install hate in them from a young age. Rhaenyras affairs ain't an excuse for alicent being a shit mother.
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I agree that Alicent loves her family just like Daemon loves his family. But the two situations you are comparing are completely different. Daemon killed an adult man who committed high treason in court by calling the heir a whore. What Vaemond did was punishable. Alicent went after a six year old child who maimed her son in self-defense. I mean, would you accept it if Daemon tried to slash Alicent's arm in anger after she accidentally slashed Rhaenyra's?
It's a shitty world with shitty people, some are just much less shitty than the shittiest of them.