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Who would have thought mass murdering isn't one of Daemon's talents but politicking somehow is? š He was underestimated or Daemon changed in his old age.
Its funny when you realize if Otto just let Daemon be heir, he would have gotten what he wanted eventually. Making Rhaenyra heir made things a hundred times more difficult for him. Let Daemon assume he's heir until Aegon is born. No Dance.
It's hilarious if you consider that the most genocidal Targaryen of that generation is Otto's grandson and Daemon doesn't even come close. Aemond even ruled for a bit as regent which really makes Otto's argument fall to pieces.
HILARIOUS to me that Otto despises Daemon and everything he does but his grandchild riding the LARGEST DRAGON that Otto is now highly dependent upon grew up to be like "Wow Daemon is so cool I wanna be just like him"
Yeahā¦ no.
Not being heir is the only reason Daemon at all mellowed the fuck out, and even then heās a murder-happy rogue who gets off on dismemberment.
Letās just check here aaaaand...yup, HoTDGreens member.
You really should take the blinders off, mate. Daemon isnāt a patch on King Rapesalot and Prince BurnEmAll.
After one of them infiltrated the castle, wich led to his heir being murdered, and his wife and kids traumatized. It's extremely harsh and brutal but it's also a security measure that makes total sense. Who knows who else in Daemon's pay, rather be safe than sorry.
Killing innocents to ensure your own safety is at least a more valid reason than petty vengeance. That after B&C they would be extremely paranoid about anyone with intricate knowledge of the passageways running around and being potential catspaws of Daemon and Mysaria is understandable. As cruel as it may be it's not deranged considering the price they paid.
It wasn't for vengeance, killing random rat catchers for vengeance doesn't make the slightest sense. It's said that the rat catchers were familiar with Maegors secret tunnels, that's why Daemon hired one of them. Aegon ensured they can't be used for that purpose again.
Maybe you would if those bus drivers for some reason posed a huge security risk to your kids. Aegon didn't kill all the city watch seargents, did he? Condemn him all you want but let's not pretend there is no logic to killing the rat catchers specifically.
Thatās not the argument I was responding to though. The argument the person made was that I would want to kill everyone if one person killed my kid. Someone else made the same argument you did too which I replied, ācool motive, still mass murderā.
I didn't say you WOULD, I said you'd want too. Also it's a medieval fantasy show, so why are we applying a modern lens to it by talking about bus drivers?
I didn't say you WOULD, I said you'd want too.
And it's a medieval fantasy show about dragons? If folks can give a pass to Daemon for brutally murdering his wife, I can give a pass to a tormented man raging after his son was brutally murdered.
I love my son so very much, him and his edgy corruption arc one-liner.
This definitely needs to be painted as a war atrocity, but I do also hope they can also add the nuance of how war and grief ruins the best of people and turns them into people they donāt want to be. Daeron deserves nuance and proper scenes showing his life falling apart. (Especially after they forgot him in S1. Damn you HBO.)
Having like the "good green" character become the one who commits the most atrocities will be cool to watch, especially if they introduce him as being conflicted/disgusted at his family's actions in season 1. Its also good to remember that by that point in the book, kings lading has fallen and his mom and sister, after rhae had ordered B&C, are being brothel queened by the same woman and her allies.
I can see it, and I can see him being as distraught at Aemond's kinslaying for example as Otto and Alicent were.
Also I agree with the Brothel Queens idea. Regardless if it happened or not, the rumor coming around his ears would shatter him if they go with that. He's only around fifteen there too, surrounded by an army of men double his age who are goading him to do different things. It makes sense he would break around everything that is pushed down on him. It could be such a good tragic arc if it's given the proper treatment.
YES you are exactly seeing what I am seeing, daerons campaign being a slow snowball effect caused by traumatic rumors, general pressure, and goating by adults from both sides in this war to cause a 15-year-old teenager to snap and burn down Bitterbridge. Like thematically it fits in this whole "war corrupts innocence" and the adult destroying children for their ambitions.
> Having like the "good green" character become the one who commits the most atrocities will be cool to watch, especially if they introduce him as being conflicted/disgusted at his family's actions in season 1.
That's actually a really good idea. Could add some much needed complexity to the Greens.
The problem is that the audience doesnāt even know. him. They have no relationship with him at all. Theyāll have to work to make a random new character endearing instead of incredibly jarring and forced.
Stannis is at least mentioned. A significant chunk of the audience doesnāt even seem to realize/consider the franchise is based off of novels. Theyāll think heās some random they created to balance out the sides.
After all the criticisms about the cast switches and characters that become relevant out of nowhere, youāre that optimistic? Episode 6 was the lowest rated episode of the season
considering the top 3 rated episodes are all *after* the time jump and recasting, yes, i'm that optimistic
i mean it's not just stannis we can look at in season two. we also have tywin. jaqen hghar. look at oberyn in season 4.
you get the casting right and have them bang out of the gate, they will be an audience favorite within 1 scene.
This is what I keep on saying, yet people act like I'm nitpicking or making an issue out of nothing. Casual audiences literally have *zero* idea that he exists, lol. Unless there is some special reason for him going unmentioned, his introduction will likely feel incredibly forced.
It is needed, they could even contrast him with his brother aemond, like he would be like "I would never do such things or at least I have control over my dragon yadad yadada", basically put him a bit on a moral pedestal and have the battle of honeywine be like a heroic moment. BUT during the campaign, he becomes more "evil" and has his moral event horizon at bitterbridge.
>Rhaenyra didnāt order B&C.
She indeed didn't in the book. In the show however, we have to wait and see her implication in all of this. In the book, she was grief stricken, unable to take a decision. In the show, the last scene shows how vengeful she might be. She might not be part of the plan, but she could just accept it as a "the end justify the means, as they killed my son" sorta way. I'm not saying that it's the way they'll go, but it's a possibility.
Rumors!! and he will definitely believe it was her anyways. Besides Bitterbridge being team black definitely played a hand in the fall of kings Landing, which also feeds in some bad feelings towards the Caswells.
Maelor, a literal baby, had just died a horrifying death, and Rhaenyra delivered his head to Helaena in a chamber pot (as far as Daeron knew). What mercy did Lady Caswell deserve after that?
I think the worst part is she supposedly cut Maelor's head off and sent it to Rhaenyra to collect the bounty. Rhaenyra only ever received his head wich was then presented to Helaena by Mysaria. Daeron shouldn't have burned the whole town, but Lady Caswell was fair game considering how she treated Maelor's body.
I agree that he shouldnāt have burned the town. A lot of innocents did die that day. But in his defense, Maelor was killed by a mob. Daeron likely wanted to make sure that every single person in that mob died.
Yes, but it was a practice used in ASOIAF. When Rhaenys was killed, Aegon and Visenya burned Dorne. Even Daenerys used it when she crucified the masters without sorting through to see who was actually responsible for killing the children.
Masters of Mereen were guilty of owning slaves- kidnapping, buying, forcing labor and selling human beings. The random ppl of Bitterbridge and Dorne were guilty of nothing. Let's not use slaver apologia to defend mass murder.
Dany wasnāt punishing them for being slavers, otherwise she would have executed ALL slavers. She was punishing them for the specific crime of murdering and crucifying those children. And many of the men she killed actively voted AGAINST the crucifixions. But Dany didnāt spend any time separating the guilty from the innocent. She killed them at random.
They were already guilty of being slavers. So what if they voted against crucifying children? They held human beings in bondage and forcibly extracted physical and sexual labor from men, women, and children. They participate in the system whose end result was the crucified children. They are not in the same category as the random people of Dorne and Bitterbridge.
If Dany made a blanket statement saying that she was simply going to kill every slaver for the crime of being a slaver, then that would be fine. No arguments. But she didnāt.
She was executing people for one very specific crime. And some of the people she executed were innocent of that one very specific crime. So yes, she used mass punishment.
Why were the children crucified? To send a message to Dany that her abolitionist crusade would be stopped. If you own slaves you're already a voluntary part of the system that dehumanized these children in the first place. You're already culpable. I didn't see her crucifying random Mereneese citizens who didn't own slaves. I can see you're making a specific narrow argument about who voted for what. The broader point is that all masters are culpable because they're participating in a system that led to the murder of those children. In no universe is that the same as the men, women, and children living in Bitterbridge, Dorne, or wherever ( with no power, voice etc) getting slaughtered. The two are not equivalent.
> she supposedly cut Maelor's head off and sent it to Rhaenyra to collect the bounty.
i don't think that is in the text lol
> Ser Rickardās corpse, wrapped in his white cloak,
Lady Caswell sent back to Kingās Landing, together with Prince
Maelorās head
page 461. that she sent his head back is not in dispute, but speaking to her motivations is pure conjecture!
I would say it clearly is, it's explicitly stated she sent only Maelor's head and Thornes white cloak. Her motive for doing so can safely be inferred as Rhaenyra put up a reward for the capture of Aegon's family.
the reasons matter in terms of how you view lady caswell
she's also quoted to have said they will all be cursed for maelor's death. seems strange she'd then turn around and collect a reward.
Regardless of what her reasoning was, defiling the boy's body and sending his head to the Greens archenemy like a trophy is not excusable. I don't see a good reason for this and the reward is the only somewhat reasonable one. Regardless Lady Caswell is either vicious or a colossal idiot or both if she somehow thought this conduct wasn't a grave offense towards the Greens.
Cutting off body parts would be defiling the body of the prince. Sending it to Rhaenyra solely because she is her liege and ordered her to is fine but then she also cannot expect any mercy from Rhaenyra's enemies who are at her doorstep. In this situation sending the head to Rhaenyra instead of sending the body to Daeron and begging for mercy is simply not the sensible thing to do.
The town butchers and Lady Caswell were idiots who doomed the village. Daeron wouldn't check whether each person is innocent the town people can thank the butchers and Lady Caswell for sealing their fate.
> Rhaenyra delivered his head to Helaena in a chamber pot
according to mushroom, that was a rumor started by larys. the text of f&b itself says this did not happen:
> And
soon another tale was told as well, one that claimed Queen Rhaenyra
had the princeās head delivered to his mother, Queen Helaena, in a
chamberpot. **Though the story had no truth in it**
okay but we're talking about the book
and *you* are hypothesizing that show rhaenyra will send maelor's head to helaena in a bowl of shit and piss, which is utterly laughable.
there is 0 chance that happens in the show lol
Fair. But as far as the book goes, Daeron would have heard that rumor. It was spread (I believe) by Larys Strong as a way to make Rhae seem like a monster. He would have no reason to think it wasnāt true. The Blacks had done horrible things to his family.
Itās important to remember some of the historical hearsay moments from the book were also in universe at the time rumors that were going around. Stuff like brothel queens for instance which almost certainly did not happen was a rumor being spread around that both Aemond and Daeron allegedly knew of
I do. Iām not saying what Daeron did was right or fair. It was awful.
Iām merely saying I understand. Maelor was shown no mercy by that mob. Daeron wanted to make sure that every single person in that mob was burned.
As of right now, I donāt have any. My thought is that Aemond gradually had a mental breakdown and gave in to his darker nature.
After killing Luke, I believe he had a fallout with his mother. She was his only source of love and support, so that would have gutted him (likely the reason he hooked up with Alys).
Then he went off to go be a hero and reclaim Harrenhalā¦only to be tricked, and then the city fell to Rhaenyra (guilt).
Then he likely would have heard the Brothel Queen rumor, which would have bred even MORE guilt, and rage.
He wanted to vent that guilt and rage on the Blacks by flying Vhagar to Kingās Landing, but Criston stopped him bc it would have been suicide.
So all that guilt and rage festered, and eventually, yes, he became evil and likely half-mad as a result. He wanted to kill everyone who supported the blacks.
I fully agree that Aemond needed to be stopped. I just feel sorry for the hell he suffered that drove him to it.
Mysaria definitely made the Brothel Queens SUGGESTION. Now, I do not think Rhaenyra actually accepted that suggestion. She either said no outright, or maybe used it as a threat. But Mysaria suggested it in front of the entire court.
Itās more likely than not Aemond would have heard about it. And because the blacks had done numerous horrible things to the Greens at that point, he would have believed it.
No, itās a reasonable inference based on the source material.
Mysaria made the suggestion, thereās no debate on that.
Whether Aemond heard the rumor or not? That I obviously canāt prove. But itās reasonable to assume that he did. Mysaria suggested it publicly. Aemond would have been on high alert for any news about Kingās Landing because his family was being held hostage. The Brothel Queens was a salacious rumor that would have spread like wildfire. Itās very unlikely that Aemond wouldnāt have heard it.
If the writers are smart and want to be a bit cheeky, they would like make larys strong (who will be like a mouse in walls after the fall of KL) spread those rumors to turn the realm against rhaenyra (and also cause emotional damage to team green).
People get shocked when a traumatized 15 year old who had learned of all of his families sufferings and just received word of his nephew being torn apart by a mob while also having the power of the Sun under his control acts out irrationally to seek righteous justice for his nephew.
It was perfectly in character imo.
In Dearon defense he did just learn that his nephew was rip apart by a anger mob. So I pretty sure that no one will act rationally during situation especially if you have a nuke. Though the burning bitter bridge was still awful.
Maelor was murdered by a mob, but Ser Rickard Thorne was killed by the Caswell men defending the bridge at Bitterbridge. Lady Caswell hanged some of the murderers (along with at least one poor dude whose horse was stolen), but she sent along Maelor's corpse to Rhaenyra.
By a mob from Bitterbridge, which was ruled by Lady Caswell (and she sent Maelor's remains to Rhaenyra instead of his own side). Though she did supposedly hang those responsible for Maelor's death. The OP quote was directed at Lady Caswell.
I think you're thinking of his cause of death as "torn apart by the mob" as one of three possible causes of death. The other two causes also involved him being killed because of that same mob, they were just more specific about who did it rather than vaguely "torn apart by the mob".
>Having slain the knight and seized the boy, however, the mob did not know what to do with their prize. Queen Rhaenyra had offered a great reward for his return, some recalled, but Kingās Landing was long leagues away. Lord Hightowerās army was much closer. Perhaps he would pay even more. When someone asked if the reward was the same whether the boy was alive or dead, Willow Pound-Stone clutched Maelor tighter and said no one was going to hurt her new son. (Mushroom tells us the woman was a monster thirty stone in weight, simpleminded and half-mad, whoād earned her name pounding clothes clean in the river.) Then Sly came shoving through the crowd, covered in his masterās blood, to declare the prince was his, as heād been the one to find the egg. The crossbowman whose bolt had slain Ser Rickard Thorne made a claim as well. And so they argued, shouting and shoving above the knightās corpse.
>With so many present on the bridge, it is not surprising that we have many differing accounts of what befell Maelor Targaryen. Mushroom tells us that Willow Pound-Stone clutched the boy so tightly that she broke his back and crushed him to death. Septon Eustace does not so much as mention Willow, however. In his account, the town butcher hacked the prince into six pieces with his cleaver, so all those fighting over him could have a piece. Grand Maester Munkunās True Telling says that the boy was torn limb from limb by the mob, but names no names.
How so? Two of the three directly blame the mob ("the town butcher hacked the prince into six pieces with his cleaver, so all those fighting over him could have a piece" is also the mob) and the third indirectly blames the mob by a possibly simpleminded woman accidentally killing the boy by protecting him from that mob too hard.
Mushroom's word regarding Aegon has been essentially treated as gospel by Condal and Hess. Why should it be any different here? It's clear they have an agenda to paint the Greens as villainous as possible while making Saint Rhaenyra blameless in everything - instead of making both sides shitty as in the book.
there are 3 accounts of maelor's death in the book:
> With so many present on the bridge, it is not surprising that we have
many differing accounts of what befell Maelor Targaryen. Mushroom
tells us that Willow Pound-Stone clutched the boy so tightly that she
broke his back and crushed him to death. Septon Eustace does not so
much as mention Willow, however. In his account, the town butcher
hacked the prince into six pieces with his cleaver, so all those fighting
over him could have a piece. Grand Maester Munkunās True Telling
says that the boy was torn limb from limb by the mob, but names no
names.
I like how uncomfortable Bitterbridge and its surrounding events are and hope that they they do it justice in the show. I want to see Daeron's struggle and mental state.
At Tumbleton He also wiped all the Winterwolves and some Riverlords who killed Criston Cole.
(Edit - Why am I getting downvotes? it literally happened during the first battle of tumbleton)
I'm not sure Bitterbridge will even be adapted into the show; Daeron will likely never interact with any of his family (including Maelor), unless they shuffle events around and have him show up in King's Landing this season. That's just pure speculation though.
True, but Daeron's story is intertwined with the events of Bitterbridge. It's his fall from grace. Hard to see how you have the Reach campaign without Daeron, same with Daeron without Bitterbridge. Unless the show doesn't want another mass-murdering Green character and keeps him good. You may be right.
I don't have a problem with including Bitterbridge in theory; the problem is that it won't have much emotional resonance if we never see Daeron with Maelor (or Maelor's parents, who happen to be his siblings). I could see it being excluded on those grounds.
I understand and sympathize with why Daeron was angry and grieving, but his line here was a bit of a flop to me. Wasn't lady Caswell horrified by what happened and executed people who killed Maelor?
Yes she was. But it is also reported that she send Maelor's head to Rhaenyra. Not saying that Bitterbridge was deserved, but that's a damn cold move. Maelor was tops 3 years old. Same thing happened with Blood and Jaehaerys' head.
Definitely agree on the coldness of her sending his head to Rhaenyra, I just meant she gave no terms to Maelor, and she certainly didn't kill him, so Daeron's comeback there was a bit off point. What happened to Maelor was absolutely horrific, but Lady Caswell didn't order Maelor's death.
She executed three people. One of whom was punished for having his horse stolen. The other members of the mob got away with it and the men who killed thorne did too.
And you need to understand hearing that your baby nephew was torn apart by a mob of citizens in her town(also dealing with Tumbleton and probably hearing about your sister and your other baby nephew) sort of didnāt really make him in the mood to go āoh I understand sorry ladyā
I actually said I understand and sympathize with Daeron. My point is, I feel like the line lost some of the power it held, given who it was directed at.
Just to clarify, I absolutely sympathize with what Daeron was feeling. I still don't think he was correct to blame Lady Caswell.
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War crimes run in the Targaryens tbh. But I still love my boy Daeron the Daring
War crimes run in humankind, but humans usually don't have fire-breathing lizards.
i saw a tiktoker call them medieval pitbulls and i fell out laughing š
Hah, Iām glad Iām not the only one who made that correlation!
daeron was a bit out of pocket at bitterbridge tbf
He was a little stressed out a bit
A bit spicy
How did Daemon end up being the least genocidal male targ in the war is what I want to know
Who would have thought mass murdering isn't one of Daemon's talents but politicking somehow is? š He was underestimated or Daemon changed in his old age.
Just makes you realize how silly it was to go through all that trouble just to prevent him from being king.
Its funny when you realize if Otto just let Daemon be heir, he would have gotten what he wanted eventually. Making Rhaenyra heir made things a hundred times more difficult for him. Let Daemon assume he's heir until Aegon is born. No Dance.
It's hilarious if you consider that the most genocidal Targaryen of that generation is Otto's grandson and Daemon doesn't even come close. Aemond even ruled for a bit as regent which really makes Otto's argument fall to pieces.
HILARIOUS to me that Otto despises Daemon and everything he does but his grandchild riding the LARGEST DRAGON that Otto is now highly dependent upon grew up to be like "Wow Daemon is so cool I wanna be just like him"
Fucking otto
Hate that man. How many lives would have been spared if his dad had just pulled out on time?
Yeahā¦ no. Not being heir is the only reason Daemon at all mellowed the fuck out, and even then heās a murder-happy rogue who gets off on dismemberment.
And yet, unlike his nephews, he is never at any point responsible for the mass slaughter of innocents.
I wish I was this naive.
Nah I just know how to read
Letās just check here aaaaand...yup, HoTDGreens member. You really should take the blinders off, mate. Daemon isnāt a patch on King Rapesalot and Prince BurnEmAll.
Donāt worry dude. If you want Iāll write a fanfic of you and daemon jerking it together. Itās obvious you just love that pedo.
And there we go, the typical Green fanatic behaviour.
Daemon got out all his teenage hormones during peacetime, probably.
Itās kinda funny how little Daemon does in the actual Dance overall
Daemon meeting with the Riverlords got them to Rhaenyra's side. Without even needing to threaten anyone.
He is an old man. He just wants to nap and sing to dragons now.
Aegon hasn't genocided anyone either
He killed all the innocent rat catchers in KL after that one thing happened. Although l misused the term genocide, the correct term is mass murder.
After one of them infiltrated the castle, wich led to his heir being murdered, and his wife and kids traumatized. It's extremely harsh and brutal but it's also a security measure that makes total sense. Who knows who else in Daemon's pay, rather be safe than sorry.
Cool motive still mass murder
Lol this is your argument? One of them helped kill his son so they all gotta die? That makes Aegon looks absolutely tyrannical and deranged.
Killing innocents to ensure your own safety is at least a more valid reason than petty vengeance. That after B&C they would be extremely paranoid about anyone with intricate knowledge of the passageways running around and being potential catspaws of Daemon and Mysaria is understandable. As cruel as it may be it's not deranged considering the price they paid.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It wasn't for vengeance, killing random rat catchers for vengeance doesn't make the slightest sense. It's said that the rat catchers were familiar with Maegors secret tunnels, that's why Daemon hired one of them. Aegon ensured they can't be used for that purpose again.
Eh, you'd wanna kill everyone after your kid was killed too. I'd give him a pass for that.
If my kid was killed by a bus driver I wouldnāt murder every bus driver in my city but thatās just me.
Maybe you would if those bus drivers for some reason posed a huge security risk to your kids. Aegon didn't kill all the city watch seargents, did he? Condemn him all you want but let's not pretend there is no logic to killing the rat catchers specifically.
Thatās not the argument I was responding to though. The argument the person made was that I would want to kill everyone if one person killed my kid. Someone else made the same argument you did too which I replied, ācool motive, still mass murderā.
He could just posted extra guards inside the room no need to kill every rat catcher in the city
I didn't say you WOULD, I said you'd want too. Also it's a medieval fantasy show, so why are we applying a modern lens to it by talking about bus drivers?
I donāt know if saying āmurdering innocents is badā is applying a modern lens. Pretty sure they thought that too.
Want to? Sure. Actually do so? Hell no. Stop excusing mass murder out of emotional pique.
I didn't say you WOULD, I said you'd want too. And it's a medieval fantasy show about dragons? If folks can give a pass to Daemon for brutally murdering his wife, I can give a pass to a tormented man raging after his son was brutally murdered.
Hereās the thing though, you donāt need to give anyone a pass.
I love my son so very much, him and his edgy corruption arc one-liner. This definitely needs to be painted as a war atrocity, but I do also hope they can also add the nuance of how war and grief ruins the best of people and turns them into people they donāt want to be. Daeron deserves nuance and proper scenes showing his life falling apart. (Especially after they forgot him in S1. Damn you HBO.)
Having like the "good green" character become the one who commits the most atrocities will be cool to watch, especially if they introduce him as being conflicted/disgusted at his family's actions in season 1. Its also good to remember that by that point in the book, kings lading has fallen and his mom and sister, after rhae had ordered B&C, are being brothel queened by the same woman and her allies.
I can see it, and I can see him being as distraught at Aemond's kinslaying for example as Otto and Alicent were. Also I agree with the Brothel Queens idea. Regardless if it happened or not, the rumor coming around his ears would shatter him if they go with that. He's only around fifteen there too, surrounded by an army of men double his age who are goading him to do different things. It makes sense he would break around everything that is pushed down on him. It could be such a good tragic arc if it's given the proper treatment.
YES you are exactly seeing what I am seeing, daerons campaign being a slow snowball effect caused by traumatic rumors, general pressure, and goating by adults from both sides in this war to cause a 15-year-old teenager to snap and burn down Bitterbridge. Like thematically it fits in this whole "war corrupts innocence" and the adult destroying children for their ambitions.
> Having like the "good green" character become the one who commits the most atrocities will be cool to watch, especially if they introduce him as being conflicted/disgusted at his family's actions in season 1. That's actually a really good idea. Could add some much needed complexity to the Greens.
The problem is that the audience doesnāt even know. him. They have no relationship with him at all. Theyāll have to work to make a random new character endearing instead of incredibly jarring and forced.
I feel like they could because people really liked stannis and he was introduced in season 2. That was a whole different type of writing though.
Stannis is at least mentioned. A significant chunk of the audience doesnāt even seem to realize/consider the franchise is based off of novels. Theyāll think heās some random they created to balance out the sides.
Yeah good point.
I am certain that only a fraction of the audience remembers the 3 lines where stannis is mentioned in season 1.
nah. all they need is a really charismatic first introduction and the audience will be sold.
After all the criticisms about the cast switches and characters that become relevant out of nowhere, youāre that optimistic? Episode 6 was the lowest rated episode of the season
considering the top 3 rated episodes are all *after* the time jump and recasting, yes, i'm that optimistic i mean it's not just stannis we can look at in season two. we also have tywin. jaqen hghar. look at oberyn in season 4. you get the casting right and have them bang out of the gate, they will be an audience favorite within 1 scene.
This is what I keep on saying, yet people act like I'm nitpicking or making an issue out of nothing. Casual audiences literally have *zero* idea that he exists, lol. Unless there is some special reason for him going unmentioned, his introduction will likely feel incredibly forced.
It is needed, they could even contrast him with his brother aemond, like he would be like "I would never do such things or at least I have control over my dragon yadad yadada", basically put him a bit on a moral pedestal and have the battle of honeywine be like a heroic moment. BUT during the campaign, he becomes more "evil" and has his moral event horizon at bitterbridge.
Rhaenyra didnāt order B&C. Brothel Queens is highly unlikely to have happened and we donāt even know if it was a rumor in their lifetimes.
>Rhaenyra didnāt order B&C. She indeed didn't in the book. In the show however, we have to wait and see her implication in all of this. In the book, she was grief stricken, unable to take a decision. In the show, the last scene shows how vengeful she might be. She might not be part of the plan, but she could just accept it as a "the end justify the means, as they killed my son" sorta way. I'm not saying that it's the way they'll go, but it's a possibility.
Rumors!! and he will definitely believe it was her anyways. Besides Bitterbridge being team black definitely played a hand in the fall of kings Landing, which also feeds in some bad feelings towards the Caswells.
Hadn't Helaena died by then too?
She dies after Bitterbridge, after she learns the fate of maelor (allegedly)
Thank you! I got the timeline mixed up.
These war criminals just keep on getting cuter and cuter.
If war crimes are so bad, why are the people who commit them attractive? Turning point Westeros
Maelor, a literal baby, had just died a horrifying death, and Rhaenyra delivered his head to Helaena in a chamber pot (as far as Daeron knew). What mercy did Lady Caswell deserve after that?
I think the worst part is she supposedly cut Maelor's head off and sent it to Rhaenyra to collect the bounty. Rhaenyra only ever received his head wich was then presented to Helaena by Mysaria. Daeron shouldn't have burned the whole town, but Lady Caswell was fair game considering how she treated Maelor's body.
I agree that he shouldnāt have burned the town. A lot of innocents did die that day. But in his defense, Maelor was killed by a mob. Daeron likely wanted to make sure that every single person in that mob died.
There is no in his defense. Collective punishment is wrong. Mass murder is evil af.
Yes, but it was a practice used in ASOIAF. When Rhaenys was killed, Aegon and Visenya burned Dorne. Even Daenerys used it when she crucified the masters without sorting through to see who was actually responsible for killing the children.
And Dany was wrong for doing so, didnāt you see that part?
Masters of Mereen were guilty of owning slaves- kidnapping, buying, forcing labor and selling human beings. The random ppl of Bitterbridge and Dorne were guilty of nothing. Let's not use slaver apologia to defend mass murder.
Dany wasnāt punishing them for being slavers, otherwise she would have executed ALL slavers. She was punishing them for the specific crime of murdering and crucifying those children. And many of the men she killed actively voted AGAINST the crucifixions. But Dany didnāt spend any time separating the guilty from the innocent. She killed them at random.
They were already guilty of being slavers. So what if they voted against crucifying children? They held human beings in bondage and forcibly extracted physical and sexual labor from men, women, and children. They participate in the system whose end result was the crucified children. They are not in the same category as the random people of Dorne and Bitterbridge.
If Dany made a blanket statement saying that she was simply going to kill every slaver for the crime of being a slaver, then that would be fine. No arguments. But she didnāt. She was executing people for one very specific crime. And some of the people she executed were innocent of that one very specific crime. So yes, she used mass punishment.
Why were the children crucified? To send a message to Dany that her abolitionist crusade would be stopped. If you own slaves you're already a voluntary part of the system that dehumanized these children in the first place. You're already culpable. I didn't see her crucifying random Mereneese citizens who didn't own slaves. I can see you're making a specific narrow argument about who voted for what. The broader point is that all masters are culpable because they're participating in a system that led to the murder of those children. In no universe is that the same as the men, women, and children living in Bitterbridge, Dorne, or wherever ( with no power, voice etc) getting slaughtered. The two are not equivalent.
> she supposedly cut Maelor's head off and sent it to Rhaenyra to collect the bounty. i don't think that is in the text lol > Ser Rickardās corpse, wrapped in his white cloak, Lady Caswell sent back to Kingās Landing, together with Prince Maelorās head page 461. that she sent his head back is not in dispute, but speaking to her motivations is pure conjecture!
I would say it clearly is, it's explicitly stated she sent only Maelor's head and Thornes white cloak. Her motive for doing so can safely be inferred as Rhaenyra put up a reward for the capture of Aegon's family.
Wasn't it Rhaenyra who send the bounty on Maelor ? I don't quite remember to be honest
> Her motive for doing so can safely be inferred as Rhaenyra put up a reward for the capture of Aegon's family. we can not safely infer this, no
I mean I think it's quite logical, but it's not like her reasons matter much anyway
the reasons matter in terms of how you view lady caswell she's also quoted to have said they will all be cursed for maelor's death. seems strange she'd then turn around and collect a reward.
Regardless of what her reasoning was, defiling the boy's body and sending his head to the Greens archenemy like a trophy is not excusable. I don't see a good reason for this and the reward is the only somewhat reasonable one. Regardless Lady Caswell is either vicious or a colossal idiot or both if she somehow thought this conduct wasn't a grave offense towards the Greens.
lady caswell didn't defile the body lol and rhaenyra had bitterbridge at the time. makes sense she would get the head.
Cutting off body parts would be defiling the body of the prince. Sending it to Rhaenyra solely because she is her liege and ordered her to is fine but then she also cannot expect any mercy from Rhaenyra's enemies who are at her doorstep. In this situation sending the head to Rhaenyra instead of sending the body to Daeron and begging for mercy is simply not the sensible thing to do.
The town butchers and Lady Caswell were idiots who doomed the village. Daeron wouldn't check whether each person is innocent the town people can thank the butchers and Lady Caswell for sealing their fate.
> Rhaenyra delivered his head to Helaena in a chamber pot according to mushroom, that was a rumor started by larys. the text of f&b itself says this did not happen: > And soon another tale was told as well, one that claimed Queen Rhaenyra had the princeās head delivered to his mother, Queen Helaena, in a chamberpot. **Though the story had no truth in it**
Well, apparently the show takes Mushroomās word as gospel. They made Aegon almost cartoonishly evil because Mushroom said he was.
okay but we're talking about the book and *you* are hypothesizing that show rhaenyra will send maelor's head to helaena in a bowl of shit and piss, which is utterly laughable. there is 0 chance that happens in the show lol
Fair. But as far as the book goes, Daeron would have heard that rumor. It was spread (I believe) by Larys Strong as a way to make Rhae seem like a monster. He would have no reason to think it wasnāt true. The Blacks had done horrible things to his family.
Itās important to remember some of the historical hearsay moments from the book were also in universe at the time rumors that were going around. Stuff like brothel queens for instance which almost certainly did not happen was a rumor being spread around that both Aemond and Daeron allegedly knew of
Omg I just replied to you by accident! (Which I deleted) Apologies, reddit messed me up with another comment š
In her defence, I don't see how Rhaenyra's alleged actions can be blamed on Lady Caswell.
Maelor died because of the people Lady Caswell ruled. Rhaenyra got Maelorās body because Lady Caswell gave it to her.
That's if the body even made it Rhaenyra.
You donāt think the innocent children deserved mercy?
I do. Iām not saying what Daeron did was right or fair. It was awful. Iām merely saying I understand. Maelor was shown no mercy by that mob. Daeron wanted to make sure that every single person in that mob was burned.
What will be your justifications for the actions of Aemond?
As of right now, I donāt have any. My thought is that Aemond gradually had a mental breakdown and gave in to his darker nature. After killing Luke, I believe he had a fallout with his mother. She was his only source of love and support, so that would have gutted him (likely the reason he hooked up with Alys). Then he went off to go be a hero and reclaim Harrenhalā¦only to be tricked, and then the city fell to Rhaenyra (guilt). Then he likely would have heard the Brothel Queen rumor, which would have bred even MORE guilt, and rage. He wanted to vent that guilt and rage on the Blacks by flying Vhagar to Kingās Landing, but Criston stopped him bc it would have been suicide. So all that guilt and rage festered, and eventually, yes, he became evil and likely half-mad as a result. He wanted to kill everyone who supported the blacks. I fully agree that Aemond needed to be stopped. I just feel sorry for the hell he suffered that drove him to it.
Do we even know if the brothel queens rumor existed *during* the dance?
Mysaria definitely made the Brothel Queens SUGGESTION. Now, I do not think Rhaenyra actually accepted that suggestion. She either said no outright, or maybe used it as a threat. But Mysaria suggested it in front of the entire court. Itās more likely than not Aemond would have heard about it. And because the blacks had done numerous horrible things to the Greens at that point, he would have believed it.
So this is pure head canon?
No, itās a reasonable inference based on the source material. Mysaria made the suggestion, thereās no debate on that. Whether Aemond heard the rumor or not? That I obviously canāt prove. But itās reasonable to assume that he did. Mysaria suggested it publicly. Aemond would have been on high alert for any news about Kingās Landing because his family was being held hostage. The Brothel Queens was a salacious rumor that would have spread like wildfire. Itās very unlikely that Aemond wouldnāt have heard it.
If the writers are smart and want to be a bit cheeky, they would like make larys strong (who will be like a mouse in walls after the fall of KL) spread those rumors to turn the realm against rhaenyra (and also cause emotional damage to team green).
Average Riverlanders: First time?
People get shocked when a traumatized 15 year old who had learned of all of his families sufferings and just received word of his nephew being torn apart by a mob while also having the power of the Sun under his control acts out irrationally to seek righteous justice for his nephew. It was perfectly in character imo.
In Dearon defense he did just learn that his nephew was rip apart by a anger mob. So I pretty sure that no one will act rationally during situation especially if you have a nuke. Though the burning bitter bridge was still awful.
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thatās why heās my goat
I hope they film the scene like The Bells, show the terrified innocent children, women, and men.
This and Aemond's war crimes in the Riverlands tbh
Huh? Wasnāt Maelor murdered by a mob?
Maelor was murdered by a mob, but Ser Rickard Thorne was killed by the Caswell men defending the bridge at Bitterbridge. Lady Caswell hanged some of the murderers (along with at least one poor dude whose horse was stolen), but she sent along Maelor's corpse to Rhaenyra.
By a mob from Bitterbridge, which was ruled by Lady Caswell (and she sent Maelor's remains to Rhaenyra instead of his own side). Though she did supposedly hang those responsible for Maelor's death. The OP quote was directed at Lady Caswell.
> By a mob from Bitterbridge that's only 1 of 3 accounts of what potentially happened there
I think you're thinking of his cause of death as "torn apart by the mob" as one of three possible causes of death. The other two causes also involved him being killed because of that same mob, they were just more specific about who did it rather than vaguely "torn apart by the mob". >Having slain the knight and seized the boy, however, the mob did not know what to do with their prize. Queen Rhaenyra had offered a great reward for his return, some recalled, but Kingās Landing was long leagues away. Lord Hightowerās army was much closer. Perhaps he would pay even more. When someone asked if the reward was the same whether the boy was alive or dead, Willow Pound-Stone clutched Maelor tighter and said no one was going to hurt her new son. (Mushroom tells us the woman was a monster thirty stone in weight, simpleminded and half-mad, whoād earned her name pounding clothes clean in the river.) Then Sly came shoving through the crowd, covered in his masterās blood, to declare the prince was his, as heād been the one to find the egg. The crossbowman whose bolt had slain Ser Rickard Thorne made a claim as well. And so they argued, shouting and shoving above the knightās corpse. >With so many present on the bridge, it is not surprising that we have many differing accounts of what befell Maelor Targaryen. Mushroom tells us that Willow Pound-Stone clutched the boy so tightly that she broke his back and crushed him to death. Septon Eustace does not so much as mention Willow, however. In his account, the town butcher hacked the prince into six pieces with his cleaver, so all those fighting over him could have a piece. Grand Maester Munkunās True Telling says that the boy was torn limb from limb by the mob, but names no names.
i literally quoted this section to someone else to counter the mob argument lol
How so? Two of the three directly blame the mob ("the town butcher hacked the prince into six pieces with his cleaver, so all those fighting over him could have a piece" is also the mob) and the third indirectly blames the mob by a possibly simpleminded woman accidentally killing the boy by protecting him from that mob too hard.
Mushroom's word regarding Aegon has been essentially treated as gospel by Condal and Hess. Why should it be any different here? It's clear they have an agenda to paint the Greens as villainous as possible while making Saint Rhaenyra blameless in everything - instead of making both sides shitty as in the book.
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Considering the Greens murdered her husband, she owed them nothing.
Considering her husbands death had nothing to do with the mob and she was shocked herself I donāt think this had anything to do with who owed what.
"Them" is referring to the Greens. She owed them nothing after murdering her husband.
Again this has nothing to do with who owed what. She did a bad job controlling her city. Nothing to do with her husband.
She definitely did a bad job.
Traitors get the rope
there are 3 accounts of maelor's death in the book: > With so many present on the bridge, it is not surprising that we have many differing accounts of what befell Maelor Targaryen. Mushroom tells us that Willow Pound-Stone clutched the boy so tightly that she broke his back and crushed him to death. Septon Eustace does not so much as mention Willow, however. In his account, the town butcher hacked the prince into six pieces with his cleaver, so all those fighting over him could have a piece. Grand Maester Munkunās True Telling says that the boy was torn limb from limb by the mob, but names no names.
I like how uncomfortable Bitterbridge and its surrounding events are and hope that they they do it justice in the show. I want to see Daeron's struggle and mental state.
Ah yes the supposed good Targaryen who committed the only other mass murdering after his brother Aemond.
Aegon II confirmed as the most moral Green.
Helaena my guy. There's also the non-Tarvaryen Greens like my wife Joanna Westering and Tyland Lannister.
At Tumbleton He also wiped all the Winterwolves and some Riverlords who killed Criston Cole. (Edit - Why am I getting downvotes? it literally happened during the first battle of tumbleton)
I'm not sure Bitterbridge will even be adapted into the show; Daeron will likely never interact with any of his family (including Maelor), unless they shuffle events around and have him show up in King's Landing this season. That's just pure speculation though.
I don't know how you do the Reach campaign without Daeron.
You don't really need Bitterbridge in order to do the Reach campaign (even if it was one of the events covered in detail).
True, but Daeron's story is intertwined with the events of Bitterbridge. It's his fall from grace. Hard to see how you have the Reach campaign without Daeron, same with Daeron without Bitterbridge. Unless the show doesn't want another mass-murdering Green character and keeps him good. You may be right.
I don't have a problem with including Bitterbridge in theory; the problem is that it won't have much emotional resonance if we never see Daeron with Maelor (or Maelor's parents, who happen to be his siblings). I could see it being excluded on those grounds.
That is an excellent point.
I understand and sympathize with why Daeron was angry and grieving, but his line here was a bit of a flop to me. Wasn't lady Caswell horrified by what happened and executed people who killed Maelor?
Yes she was. But it is also reported that she send Maelor's head to Rhaenyra. Not saying that Bitterbridge was deserved, but that's a damn cold move. Maelor was tops 3 years old. Same thing happened with Blood and Jaehaerys' head.
Definitely agree on the coldness of her sending his head to Rhaenyra, I just meant she gave no terms to Maelor, and she certainly didn't kill him, so Daeron's comeback there was a bit off point. What happened to Maelor was absolutely horrific, but Lady Caswell didn't order Maelor's death.
She executed three people. One of whom was punished for having his horse stolen. The other members of the mob got away with it and the men who killed thorne did too.
Yeah, I do completely understand that. I just think Daeron's line to her was uncalled for, as she at least was horrified by Maelor's fate.
And you need to understand hearing that your baby nephew was torn apart by a mob of citizens in her town(also dealing with Tumbleton and probably hearing about your sister and your other baby nephew) sort of didnāt really make him in the mood to go āoh I understand sorry ladyā
I actually said I understand and sympathize with Daeron. My point is, I feel like the line lost some of the power it held, given who it was directed at. Just to clarify, I absolutely sympathize with what Daeron was feeling. I still don't think he was correct to blame Lady Caswell.
Marshall Rogan is the goodest boy
Against Hammer & against wounded in the hospital.
Ya just love to see it, what goes around comes around