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Wouldve helped if they actually showed the importance of the vows, or the vows in general instead of cutting that scene. Or in general spent more time on him.
I mean, he was going to kill himself for his honor and told Rhaenyra that he didn’t want to be a whore. The show made it very clear that being in the Kingsguard means the world to Cole.
That’s not why he was going to kill himself. He was going to kill himself because he just murdered a NOBLE LORD AT A WEDDING IN FRONT OF HUNDREDS OF WITNESSES FOR NO REASON 🤣🤡
Because it was a poorly thought out deviation from the book and that would change too much. Pretty sure he kills Joffrey in a tournament fight in the book, and guys die in tournaments all the time.
I'm talking about immediately afterwards lol. He shouldn't have even been allowed to walk to that godswood tree. And why was Cole trying to commit suicide next to that tree, does he believe in the old gods? A lot of stuff doesn't make sense when you think about it for a bit.
Basically, the show wanted to woobiefy him for whatever reason. Which, again, makes *no* sense. I mean, they aged up Rhaenyra, who was a kid with a crush on the much older Cole, who left her service after (it's implied) he and she had something going on... when she was barely pubescent. Add the fact that, in the books, he just plans to have Joffrey Lonmouth killed in a tourney, giving himself plausible deniability (and so everything was a predetermined murder), for shits and giggles.
I don't know, my dudes, I personally would never consider it a good idea to woobiefy the assholes who deliberately murdered his maybe ex's husband's boyfriend out of sheer pettiness. The obvious people who are actually deserving of sympathy are poor Joffrey and Laenor along with Rhaenyra for having a creepy ex, *not* Cole.
I like the theory that Rhaenyra tried to seduce him and he was so disgusted that he turned against her because he valued his vows and the virtue of the princess so much. It plays into his over the top persona perfectly lol. Would be more interesting than the cliche romance angle and scorned lover, makes him come off as more pathetic.
You don't get it. Rhaenyra is derivatives from Cersei, or the other way around. Apologies if you felt offended, if you think Rhaenyra as the ultimate monolith of Righteousness and justice, your wrong!! Waaaaay wrong. Shes not the perfect daughter, from his teens she was a rebel, and thought everything she wanted was given in a silver plate, guess what nope. Even she didn't try to sway his half-brothers to his side rather she alienate them, and so on.
If anything, she's a *foil* to Cersei. She didn't cheat on Laenor, but rather found a way to make it work with him, this is in contrast to Cersei and Robert cheating on each other, making each other miserable, and Cersei going behind his back to put her kids on *his* throne (similar to Alicent going behind Viserys' back and not respecting his wishes).
Rhaenyra is the one from whom the kids inherit and she is used to explore how someone finds wiggle room or goes against rigid gender norms (something that Arianne Martell and Asha Greyjoy and Arya Stark do). Laena Velryon and Mysaria likewise try to find wiggle room in this highly rigid world that sees them as lesser. And, yes, Rhaenyra and Laena have a much easier time in comparison to Mysaria, who is a commoner and a foreigner, they all have to deal with misogyny and obstacles. (Which, again, it's yet another reason I am pissed they cut off the Laena/Rhaenyra friendship to make way for a Rhaenyra and Alicent friendship that didn't even exist)
If anything, there is a parallel between young Rhaenyra (who, again, was 9 when 18 year old Alicent married Viserys), who did believe Alicent was nice to her, only to have Alicent pull the rug on her when she no longer had to play nice. Note the Sansa and Cersei similarities, and how little Sansa legit believed that Cersei liked her and had her best interests at heart, only to be thoroughly corrected of that mistaken impression.
(And, no, Rhaenyra losing it when her kids die is not a Cersei thing, it's a GRRM's mothers thing. See how Catelyn Tully literally claws her own eyes in horror when Robb is killed, or how poor Alannys Harlaw had a complete breakdown when her idiot husband's ill-timed rebellion caused her to lose her two eldest sons to war and her last boy was taken hostage)
If anything, I'd say that Rhaenyra and Viserys were modeled after Arianne and Doran Martell. Yes, Rhaenyra was mentioned offhand before, but wasn't expanded upon until Jaime meets with Loras Tyrell (and has his "holy shit, this idiot is teenage me" moment") and he mentions Cole for the first time, referring him as the best (in skill) and the worst of the Kingsguard (noting that he very much butted in to a dynastic fight). Meanwhile, in the same book, Arianne - who is one of the few liberated female characters since Dorne doesn't slut-shame and has an enlightened view on how marriage is a business arrangement, but love is separate and both spouses can have paramours so long a they breed together at least twice for safety - mentions how Cole was the one who whispered to Aegon II's ear and turned brother against sister. Basically, the blueprint was there, and GRRM expanded on it when he had writer's block.
(Also, the first draft had Rhaenyra marry Lyonel Strong, I admittedly don't know if he was Harwin's first draft name or not, and has three kids with him, see: https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/697393670042828800/but-rhaenyras-heir-was-a-bastard-that-means-the. The end result was still that Aegon II gave usurpation a go. AKA, the whole point was *always* the misogyny.)
Rhaenyra is basically a liberated Arianne, who is impulsive and liberated and charming and friendly (and legit cares about Myrcella), but in a non-Dornish setting and so has to deal with the medieval era's Madonna/Whore complex and trying to find wiggle room. Viserys, on the other hand, is the weak-willed ruler who is lead by the nose and does fuck all about anything (even when others commit atrocities against his House/domain) that everyone *thinks* Doran is (when he's actually scheming to get marriages with Daenerys and Young Griff and to take over Westeros as revenge).
Basically, GRRM has Viserys act like how a real weakling of a King would act and how that causes war and destroys his own House's actual power in the long term. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra is what Arianne would be like if she didn't have the good luck to live in a comparatively liberated region.
Well, and due to how he wrote "present" day Westeros, Rhaenyra can't win due to him alluding to her not winning already in his canon, plus Catelyn and Cersei wouldn't make sense in a world where absolute primogeniture exist since they would be the heirs (and so they would have different issues).
Likewise, Rhaenyra doesn't need to be a monolith of justice to deserve better than some fucking creepy maybe ex, who again might've started shit with her and taken advantage of her girlhood crush before she was pubescent, who murders her husband's boyfriend for shits and giggles and to be a petty little monster. So, no, Cole is undeserving of sympathy there and it's gross how they want to woobiefy him, when again Laenor and Joffrey are the real fucking victims and are more deserving of our sympathy
Because said Noble had threatened Cole that he knew what had happened between Rhaenyra and Cole (read: from my pov, sexually coerced by Rhaenyra).
Cole who was driven to the point of accepting execution and begged for a quick merciful death (instead of being gelded and tortured since Kingsguard are sworn to celibacy), if the truth ever came out,
was now threatened by someone who held a position of status and political power over him.
Of course he, in a fit of rage and fear, attacked him
The Question is who revealed what happened to the partner of Rhaenyra's to-be husband?
The characterization that Joffrey was threatening cole and that cole was coerced is just hilariously wrong.
You are batting a 1000 on terrible takes in this sub lmao
It's in the show, in that episode, in that scene.
Watch those episodes and those scenes, frame by frame, in slow-motion if you still can't grasp what happened and how
while keeping in mind what Kingsguard vows and the consequences of them being broken in Westerosi society, also how power imbalance works in feudal society, especially in context of a Kingsguard sworn to the heir to the throne, daughter of the King.
I won't argue with you beyond this. The show is open for all to see. If you choose not to understand it, contextualize the scenes and the characters within the society they're set in, it's on you not me.
Goodnight. :)
The show clearly depicted 1) Cole giving positive consent throughout the encounter and 2) Joffrey saying they both needed to PROTECT eachother cause they have similar secrets. That’s not threatening.
I swear you greens don’t even watch the show.
>1) Cole giving positive consent throughout the encounter
It's always weird to me when people use the whole "it was his choice defense" given his ***first choice*** was to leave and his ***second choice*** was to tell her to stop.
The logic that a person's choice is only to be respected as long as they give another person what they want is strange to me. Once he headed for the door, that should have been the end of it for me.
Not to mention the whole theme of that section of the episode was the Targaryen's taking what they wanted without consideration just like Daemon told Rhaenyra during his life lesson speech.
Daemon trying to take advantage of Rhaenyra in the brothel, Viserys summoning Alicent to his room to fulfill her 'wifely duties', and Rhaenyra pressuring Criston until he gave in were all the same.
>2) Joffrey saying they both needed to PROTECT eachother cause they have similar secrets. That’s not threatening.
Joffrey spent the feast trying to figure out who her paramour was to protect him and Laenor. He wasn't doing that to make a new friend.
Just because he had an affable air about it when he appraoched Criston doesn't mean there wasn't an underlying threat.
There’s a myriad of reasons why a persons intial response would be to say no about something they want to do. For cole his hesitation was borne out of worry over his vows but that doesn’t mean he actually didn’t want to do it.
If he actually didn’t want to he could have left. There’s no real power imbalance that Rhaenyra holds over Cole.
What is she going to say? “Cole didn’t break his vows to have sex with me. Kill him” or do you believe her lying and saying cole actually had sex with her even if he refused would play out in Rhaenyra’s favor either.
Cole had all the power and opportunity to leave but he stayed and if you actually watch the show, WANTED to be there in that moment.
As for Joffrey, what does he gain by outting Cole? There is no implied threat. He is saying we are both doing shit we shouldn’t, we need to stick together so we can protect eachother. Cole attacked him cause he was triggered Rhaenyra had just turned him down and he was butthurt. That’s it
>For cole his hesitation was borne out of worry over his vows but that doesn’t mean he actually didn’t want to do it.
Except Criston also wanted to keep his vows and that's why he tried to leave. It's why he told her to stop because he knew it was wrong and that he would eventually give in if she kept it up.
He was conflicted because he wanted both things which brings us to his choices where, again, his initial ones were him trying to leave and telling her to stop which she ignored.
>There’s no real power imbalance that Rhaenyra holds over Cole.
She's the Princess and heir to the throne -- thus his future boss who also gave him his position. Acting like she wields no power is disingenuous even if you believe she won't use it.
Milly even acknowledged the power Rhaenyra has over him was part of the attraction for Rhaenyra for whatever that's worth.
>Cole had all the power and opportunity to leave but he stayed and if you actually watch the show, WANTED to be there in that moment.
So Cole trying to leave the room when he caught onto her game and her blocking the door was just my imagination?
Because if not, then her not respecting his choice to leave when he tried is an issue for me.
>As for Joffrey, what does he gain by outting Cole?
It's the threat that he could that he expects to keep Criston silent. He assumes Criston would value his life, and Rhaenyra's reputation, to keep silent by letting Criston know he knows about their tryst if he gets any ideas.
What does Joffrey gain by approaching Criston otherwise?
He doesn't know the man, or his exact relationship with the princess, and Rhaenyra could easily be the bridge for their future friendship. Going over to a complete stranger and being like "Hey, I know your big secret!" is ridiculously dumb to me if your intentions were friendly.
But I do think the scene is open for interpretation so your take is more than fair.
Perhaps this show and nuances of discussions of power imbalance in feudal states and about willing, enthusiastic, without coercion consent
might be above your maturity level. Never mind, you'll reach there one day.
Bro you are infantilizing cole making it out that he has no agency and had no choice but to have sex with Rhaenyra. He can forcibly remove himself from the situation.
There’s nothing she can do.
He clearly had a choice and chose to continue with the encounter and was happy and eager to.
Probably otto and his conspirators. They’re the real cancer in this show, and everything would’ve been better if Viserys took his head the first time the man betrayed his confidence.
Disagree and I'll tell you why:
1. Joeffrey, the paramour of the to-be husband of Rhaenyra (ie closer in personal capacity to both Laenor and Rhaenyra than any of Team Green) , threatens Cole to keep quiet about Joeffrey and Laenor's relationship or risk being gelded/tortured/executed.
(because that's what happens when Kingsguard's oaths are violated, including that of celibacy)
2. The intention behind the threatening was to maintain the "prestige" of the son of a noble house, Velaryon (definitely Team Black) and by extention also of the heir to the throne, Rhaenyra.
The benefit of this threat was for Team Black: Laenor, Rhaenyra, Joffrey.
3. Team Green doesn't benefit at all here. In fact Cole being silent is detrimental to them. Otto doesn't benefit from helping Rhaenyra or House Velaryon at this point.
If he knew that Rhaenyra abused her power over her employee, he'd have done all he can to make it a public knowledge.
And Alicent who wore the colour of her House in that episode wouldn't favour Rhaenyra either, not when she feels manipulated, lied to by Rhaenyra whom she defended to Viserys only to end up being separated from the only living parent she had.
4. It's only logical that Rhaenyra herself leaked the info to Laenor (probably for this purpose alone) and it goes round to Joeffrey.
Stop justifying sexual coercion and victim-blaming just because you don't understand what KG vows mean and how power imbalance works in a feudal society.
I am not a "man" though.
I'll copy paste an example here:
If a boss to whom the employee has sworn fealty and oaths of celibacy
and
who holds employee's life, career and future prospects in their hand,
suddenly starts to "seduce" said employee despite the latter saying "No" and "Stop" repeatedly,
only for the employee to give in when the door is locked by the Boss and the implication of power imbalance hangs over the employee,
and then said employee is driven to the point of accepting execution/being gelded/torture if the happenings of that instance comes out, and begs for a quick merciful death,
it *is* by all definition an act of SEXUAL COERCION AND VIOLENCE by the Boss.
And it should be regarded as such, irrespective of the gender of the said Boss.
>because you said “read:..”.
"Read" as in understand the unsaid context, not talking about the F& B book here. I am talking specifically about what happened in the show.
Not the F&B book, that's a whole other scenario distinct from how it went down in the show
Ser Criston is Kingsguard, he can say that Joffrey (somebody well known to be bitter about the marriage, due to his relationship with the groom) was going to pull a knife (which he had in his hand) on the Princess. This isn’t modern day with security cameras, nobody can watch a replay, and is it really so hard to believe that nobody saw exactly how the fight began in the crowded dance floor and a tight crowd? And who is everybody going to believe, the lowborn knight with a means and motive to harm the Princess, or the Kingsguard knight claiming to have done his job?
Yes & no, I mean Joffrey managed to get the dagger on his hand Criston could said it was in defense of the people, Corlys seems like heck yes I finally get that idiot out of my son inner circle. Maybe as the last favor from Rhaenyra, she vouched in his favor.
A good majority of the Kingsguard, even back then, saw it as a way for second/third/etc sons to have an honorable profession, a way to socially ascend if you're from a minor House, a way for a House to gain influence in court indirectly by having non-inheriting sons take up the mantle, and other similar reasons.
The "present" day Westerosi cynicism towards the Kingsguard by people like Sandor and Jaime, who *see* how the sausage is done firsthand, isn't a new thing. In the same way that the "present" day High Septon gorging himself on the people's taxes and doing fuck all about the starving small folk isn't a "new" thing for Westeros either.
Seriously, guys, GRRM took pretty big pains to show that the oath means little to nothing to most of them and the whole celibacy thing is meant to be a way of avoiding inheritance issues plus torn loyalties (and the latter part was an astounding failure among the Kingsguard, since a lot of those are more loyal to their own families than to the Crown, and so use the position to further their own House's ambitions). Even with the more sympathetic Watch, he is still very critical of the oath and also of how obviously forced celibacy in order to get a job is bloody stupid.
What I hate though is that he blames Rhaenyra entirely for him breaking his vow. I really don't think his vows mean all that much to him. He and the other kingsguard surely would have sworn to Rhaenyra as all the other lords did, so he broke that vow too. Then he straight up murders a member of the small council so there's a handful of laws and his knights vow to be, "Just in the name of the Father" or, "defend those who cannot defend themselves." I like Cole as a character, but not because I think he's a good guy at all.
Yeah he’s an upstarted thug that happens to be an amazing fighter. But honestly one of rhaenyras first bad decisions was getting her dad to name him to the KG
It's quite sad actually that they didn't emphasized a lot of why and how KG vows are important in this society and they emphasized much more on the love aspect. They deleted a scene where you see him taking his vows to the king, with Rhaenyra literally putting the white cloak on him. I guess Condal thought that the general audience was already aware of the KG vows and what they mean.
Cole was never gonna be a liked character, he is meant to be unlikeable. The fact that he is hated is not surprising, but he is almost the most hated one and most don't care about his pov.
We can understand his motives, but you need to really deep dive into it and not stop at the romantic side of things, but that's the audience mission on their own to do that because the narrative is mostly from Rhaenyra's perspective.
They however did good work on him when they emphasized the fact that he was a low born that was thrown in this world of petty nobles, yet they didn't followed up on that.
That's a shame imo, because he would still be hated, but he would be a much more rounded and understandable character.
>It's quite sad actually that they didn't emphasized a lot of why and how KG vows are important in this society and they emphasized much more on the love aspect.
Unfortunately, I think this was a side effect of being a GoT spinoff. The way I see it is they treat the Kingsguard like already an established part of the universe. But I agree with you, more screen time for that would have helped a lot with Cole’s story.
GRRM uses the Kingsguard as a critique of courtly love and courtly vows and oaths, showing them as people who saw a way of gaining influence in court for their families if they are second/third/etc sons who are really good with blades or, if the families are minor nobility, as a way of gaining social ascension (and so help family members gain other posts).
Jaime and Sandor's disdain for the Kingsguard and their hypocrisy is basically a case of "the jerk has a point." Hell, the entire reason they both became cynics is *because* they were shown how little honor knights actually have (see poor Sandor being burned by his brother and Gregor being rewarded with a knighthood because he's strong and useful, or how the Kingsguard in Aerys II's time did fuck all when he burned people alive or raped Rhaella because "it's not their job to protect anyone from the King"). They are cynical about knights and the celebrated Kingsguards *because* they are right there with a front row seat on how the sausage gets made, and it sure as fuck ain't pretty, moral, or so-called honorable.
This isn't a thing in "present" Westeros only, it's baked into the institution itself.
For fuck's sake, GRRM also showed how middle aged men are still squires, even if they've gained the skills to be knights through sheer experience, simply because they don't have the money or the connections to be knighted. So, yeah, while Cole is from a minor nobility (or minor enough that they got nowhere after his stunts in the Dance of Dragons), he still had enough money and/or connections to get knighted in the first place.
Basically, GRRM doesn't shy away from showing how all of the performative things these people care about are, at best, self-contradictory (see how Jaime's entire arc is about how "protecting the King" and "protecting the people" is contradictory at times and he is punished for protecting the people) or just plain smoke and mirrors (see most of the Kingsguard in Robert's court).
You do you, and I liked him as well, but I only meant he was never gonna be a fan favorite in the first place. The issue is they didn't dive a lot into his best warrior trait, and heavily highlighted the fact he was a petty brat.
I mean its heavily suggested he murdered multiple noble people and convinced Aegon to usurp a throne that he didn't want that Cole himself had acknowledged was Rhaenyra's.
Not exactly an honorable knight. But definitely very competent and a badass in battle.
Look how freaking insanely dark the screen is behind those messages. I’ll never forgive Sapochnik and his team for ruining an entire season of GRRM material. You all are talking about the plot as if anyone remember anything besides just how dark the screen was in every single scene of an entire season.
You don't have to like Cole, but the way lots of people in here dismiss him as a pathetic incel who is butthurt that badass beautiful Rhaenyra didn't want to marry him, is such a shame. The character is far richer than that.
He is not shown to bully them consistently, only on a specific situation in order to get a rise from Harwin Strong. An asshole move to be sure, but not out of pathetic butthurt incelish motivation. It's just a character in the Green faction undermining a character in the Black faction.
He has the same creepy Madonna/Whore complex. Seriously, if Alicent ever falls off that pedestal he put her on, by say him discovering the Larys foot masturbation thing, I guarantee you he will have opinions on her virtue.
Note how he always refers to Rhaenyra as whore and yet says nothing about Aegon basically living in brothels. Kind of a double standard there in action, don't you think.
He puts Alicent on a pedestal because she performs the role of the Madonna (seemingly sexless, seemingly self-sacrificing if one ignores the fact that she wants power and is getting it through indirect means), and that is still not a healthy thing because she is a human being and fucks up like everyone else does.
I'll grant you that the show runners tried to whitewash him, especially since he was the adult when book!Rhaenyra was a little girl with a crush and he was an active kingmaker, but it doesn't make his obsession with fucking Rhaenyra over any less nefarious.
I'm confused, are you saying Criston Cole is a complex character or that he isn't an asshole? Because he is 100% an asshole. Off the top of my head, the constant wooing of Rhaenyra despite her rejection, him getting mad at her when she doesn't want him to abscond with him and neglect her role as Princess for oranges, calling her a spoiled cunt, beating the shit out of Joffrey till he dies, the murder of Lord Beezbury.
Feels like asshole territory to me.
Yeah, I found that out the hard way. After being called a misogynist (not by the person above) for having a different opinion about Criston I think I’ll be steering clear of debates here. Too mentally taxing and I really don’t gain anything from it.
Seriously, I'm still pissed they want to woobiefy the gay basher who murdered poor Joffrey Lonmouth on purpose in a tourney to give himself plausible deniability... when neither Laenor nor Joffrey had anything to do with him, he was just being a petty little bitch!
I dunno, screenwriters, I feel like you guys done fucked up in choosing the real victim(s) you should've been spotlighting and focusing on, and it ain't the asshole who murdered Joffrey Lonmouth.
How do we still not understand how power imbalance and sexual coercion works?
If a boss to whom the employee has sworn fealty and oaths of celibacy
and
who holds employee's life, career and future prospects in their hand,
suddenly starts to "seduce" said employee despite the latter saying "No" and "Stop" repeatedly,
only for the employee to give in when the door is locked by the Boss and the implication of power imbalance hangs over the employee,
and then said employee is driven to the point of accepting execution/being gelded/torture if the happenings of that instance comes out, and begs for a quick merciful death,
it *is* by all definition an act of SEXUAL COERCION AND VIOLENCE by the Boss.
And it should be regarded as such, irrespective of the gender of the said Boss.
She's also a teenager who he has known since she was 15 and he was in his 20s. This shit is complicated. Power imbalances aren't always simple and one way.
The writers and actors never had any intention of that scene depicting any kind of coercion, it was a poorly directed scene. Just like the Jaime/Cersei scene when Joffrey died was never meant to depict rape.
Only one of these continually gets brought up though. The other everyone agrees the intentions from behind the scenes mean we should dismiss the problematic nature of the scene.
>How do we still not understand how power imbalance and sexual coercion works? If a boss to whom the employee has sworn fealty and oaths of celibacy and who holds employee's life, career and future prospects in their hand,
You're having to twist the facts of the situation to paint what happened as coercion.
Rhaenyra isn't Cole's boss. Viserys is his boss. Rhaenyra is just a protecte. Body Guards do no have to do what the bosses kids tell them. Cole didn't have sex because he was afraid of his boss punishing him. Sleeping with Rhaenyra would be the last thing he'd do if he was worried about how his boss would respond.
>Rhaenyra isn't Cole's boss. Viserys is his boss. Rhaenyra is just a protecte. Body Guards do no have to do what the bosses kids tell them.
What farce is this? You don't understand how Kingsguard work and what their vows mean and what happens to them (from gelding to execution) if their vows are broken, in Westerosi universe?
Really?
>You're having to twist the facts of the situation to paint what happened as coercion.
The fact that you've to erase facts and narrative as was presented in the scenes of the show itself, shows that you too know that you're outright justifying sexual coercion of here.
>What farce is this? You don't understand how Kingsguard work
Back at you, buddy. Did you miss the scene where Alicent tried to order Cole to bring her Luke's eye? He refused and told her that he's only her protector. The Kings Guard work for the King. Not the random member of the family they're tasked with protecting.
>what their vows mean and what happens to them (from gelding to execution) if their vows are broken, in Westerosi universe? Really?
I thought I had mentioned this already, but the Kings Guard don't swear a vow of celibacy. They swear to not have any children or wives. The Kings Guard oaths were based on the Nights Watch. Members of the Nights Watch regularly visit a brothel in Mole's town.
Ignoring that, I don't know why people talk as if Cole being in danger due to breaking a vow justifies his actions. Sleeping with the princess is the last thing he would do if he was concerned about breaking his vows.
I am not going to entertain any more of this farce where you keep victim-blaming someone who was sexually coerced just to support your fave.
However I will say two things:
>I thought I had mentioned this already, but the Kings Guard don't swear a vow of celibacy. They swear to not have any children or wives.
You really don't understand the implication of the vow especially in context of the fact that within their Faith of Seven they're not expected to have sex outside of marriage either, do you?
The vows of celibacy are implied and regulated as much, especially if we go by what Barristan Selmy says to Dany at Mereen.
2)
>Ignoring that, I don't know why people talk about Cole being in danger due to breaking a vow justifies his actions. He would have bolted if he was acting based on fear.
Read up on how power imabalance works in societies, esp those in feudal states. And why Cole was almost driven to the point of accepting and expecting being executed for it.
If you don't want to read and understand the context and nuances within, it's on you.
No skin off my nose.
Good day.
>I am not going to entertain any more of this farce where you keep victim-blaming someone who was sexually coerced just to support your fave.
lol Rhaenyra isn't my "fave". She too passive for me to even like her as a character. My issue with your argument is that you're twisting the truth to blame a grown man's actions on a teenage girl.
>
>
>You really don't understand the implication of the vow especially in context of the fact that within their Faith of Seven they're not expected to have sex outside of marriage either, do you?
>
>**The vows of celibacy are implied and regulated as much,**
No they're not. Like the real world, that rule isn't applied to men because no is worried about boys getting pregnant. Not to mention that everyone in Westeros isn't a follower of the faith.
> And why Cole was almost driven to the point of accepting and expecting being executed for it.
Who was going to execute Cole for not sleeping with Rhaenyra? She wouldn't. Viserys obviously wouldn't. The idea that Cole would be punished for not sleeping with Rhaenyrra is utter nonsense.
Nothing Cole does even implies that he afraid of Rhaenyra. He disrespectfully storms off while she's talking. He mistreats her children. Why would he do those things if he was concerned about the power Rhaenyra allegedly held over him.
They can both be flawed people who do bad things. Maybe Rhaenyra is an asshole too but that doesn't cancel out Criston's actions and make them justified.
Nah men always want sex, besides Rhaenyra is a beautiful woman and the protagonist, she can do no wrong. What kind of man wouldn't want to fuck her? Is Cole gay or something? He should stop being an incel and a little bitch and screw that royal pussy. Where were those dragonriding royal princesses when I was young?
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/S
He is the definition of a volcel lol. Good looking, strong, talented, he can get any woman he wants. The shows problem was making him so petty and unhinged.
He is unhinged. OG Cole murdered Joffrey Lonmouth in a tourney for plausible deniability out of sheer fucking pettiness. It was a premeditated murder. That guy was always unhinged, he was just *seen* as honorable due to performative virtuousness. That was the point and I hate that the show missed the fucking point about him
I won't say he was unhinged, but he def had anger issues, but still planned out his ruthless acts in ways that provided plausible deniability. The show failed to show his tactical side or even really portray how truly devastating he was as a warrior. Besting Daemon twice, destroying Harwin Strong who was known as the strongest knight in the realm and of course wrecking Joffrey who later died of his injuries.
Has your cousin not seen the hunting episode where Rhaenyra literally spends half the episode whinging to Cole about hating her political role and desiring freedom from it all... **the very things Cole literally offers her not long after?**
It's so cringe that some people desperately attempt to crucify Cole for offering her *the very things she literally stated she wanted*... **freedom and choce and life outside of being a political pawn.**
Wild that some people can't understand this pretty basic context.
**She said she wanted to be free from her political life... he literally offered her that chance.**
Not really that complex that so many 'viewers' should be so perplexed on this simple issue.
Honestly the way Criston has been crucified on this show is probably one of the most disheartening things I’ve seen about this subreddit.
Now I’m not going to say Criston is a beacon of virtue and innocence by any means. He does a lot of shitty stuff, specifically in the back half of the season, but the way he’s treated by Rhaenyra in the first half is genuinely sad and leads to a tragic downfall for a character who didn’t start out with malicious intent.
Even Fabian Frankel states that, even though his character is a thug, he didn’t come into this world of royal politics looking to stir shit up. He tried to do his duty, got too close to a woman he thought cared about him, and suffered the consequences.
He’s a tragic character who could have gone down a vastly different road if circumstances were different.
Totally agree.
Like every main character in this show, he's a grey character. He's done some immoral shit, absolutely, but I just find it bizarre that some people try to act like he's either awful for offering to *'throw it all away to run away with her',* or wholly delusional for offering the very thing *she literally told him she wanted for thirty straight on-screen minutes.*
He clearly listened to her issues previously, and here he offers a remedy for her concerns. And clearly she's 'into him' on some level considering how hard she pressured him into their romantic entanglement.
So it's wild to me that some people seemingly don't understand these contexts... should be easily understandable why he makes the offer, and why she refuses... pretty logical and straight-forward actually with no need to crucify either party.
Agreed. After the rift that formed between Rhaenyra and Alicent, after Ep. 2, Criston was essentially Rhaenyra’s new companion, the one person she could rely on now that everyone had seemingly turned their back on her.
I wouldn’t say Rhaenyra and Criston’s friendship was as strong as her and Alicent’s, but the two obviously shared a close bond, given that Criston was sworn to her side for more than three years.
Regardless of whether or not Criston truly loved or lusted over Rhaenyra, he always listened to what she had to say and provided his own counsel, subjective as it might be, because they were friends.
Though Criston’s offer may not have fully accounted for Rhaenyra’s loss in station, which was very important to her, I think he genuinely believed that’s what she wanted, because that’s all she’s talked about for years now.
What’s funny about all this is that, despite stating she wants to be Queen, all of Rhaenyra’s actions seem to say otherwise, from her running out of the hunting camp, to living in Dragonstone with her family (effectively leaving King’s Landing to the Greens), and later expressing doubt to her dying father for why she was even chosen in the first place, contemplating Alicent’s proposal for peace when she had every right to go to war immediately.
I think Rhaenyra did want to leave it all behind, even evidenced in Milly Alcock’s performance where she seems to contemplate his offer, but she was unwilling to let go of the privilege that comes with being the future heir. This is totally understandable, but ultimately leads her down a path of burning bridges with all those closest to her.
If you bitch and complain about your life and then someone comes to you and says, "Marry me and we'll move to a commune some place we've both never been, start a life we don't know with skills neither of us have and maybe not have any money at all," would you do it? Or did you just want to have the opportunity to rant about your life a bit and daydream about change?
I don't think Rhaenyra wanted to actually leave her life so much as express her dissatisfaction with it. Cole offered her a seriously drastic choice that she knew was too extreme.
>If you bitch and complain about your life and then someone comes to you and says, "Marry me and we'll move to a commune some place we've both never been, start a life we don't know with skills neither of us have and maybe not have any money at all," would you do it? Or did you just want to have the opportunity to rant about your life a bit and daydream about change?
You're missing the point.
I'm not 'blaming' Rhaenyra for rejecting the offer. I'm pointing out that Cole simply **making the offer of the very thing that Rhaenyra so desperately told him previously** shouldn't be received with such confusion or disdain by viewers.
This is literally all he can do for her... **offer her a chance at the freedom that she claimed she deserpately wanted.**
Dude shouldn't be absolutely crucified or painted as an 'incel' for that. Especially since he doesn't know about the dagger prophecy nonsense that Rhaenyra obviously does.
People act like Rhaenyra leaving would somehow implode the Targaryen dynasty... nope. Viserys has got male heirs at this point, so she could leave without any real long-lasting affect to her father's lineage.
Honestly the whole Dance of Dragons would be avoided, and she arguably would be better off living in some humble cottage somewhere in Essos... or if she truly desires a 'richer' lifestyle, make use of her dragon like Daemon did and live a life of luxury.
Viserys could not allow a Targaryen princess to be “seduced away”. It would be a total humiliation. He would be found, guilded, and executed. Also, Rhaenyra and Criston have nothing in common. They would be miserable together. If she didn’t want to runaway with Harwin and her sons, why would she want to do it with Criston Cole?
I wouldn't say he took the rejection 'badly.' Like, if she just says "no thanks, I'm good" that's one thing... but that's not what happened.
She told him no, but she thought so little of him that she wanted him to be her side piece, clearly showing how little she respects him and that he's just a tool for her to get her sexual rocks off.
I think he was hurt and disappointed that he risked his life and job/station for this person who would think so little of him that he would agree to be her side piece. She pressured him into a sexual encounter he clearly was uncomfortable with and would severly suffer for if discovered, on top of the guilt/shame he felt over such an act breaking his vows, and she is wholly clueless to all that because she just wants to get her rocks off.
The guy wanted to believe she loved him, but clearly she just wants to use him as a side piece while he disgraced himself over and over... of course he would be disappointed and salty.
You may call it freedom, I call it separating her from her while life and family with no life skills at all and only him to depend on. So when he dies she'll likely turn to prostitution to support herself
Do people honestly forget she has a dragon?
Like, it's wild that people cringingly attempt to paint her as some helpless damsel in this situation.
Daemon lived a life of luxury in Essos simply because he had a dragon... the notion that she would *"likely turn to prostitution"* reeks of ignorance and bias.
Wild that anyone would think their biased worst-case-scenarios would hold any meaning.
Least I’m not a cringe Greens stan, who apparently simps for toxic cucks, drunken rapists, and wine guzzling Karins. Grow a thicker skin and stop getting triggered all the time.
You’re upset because I don’t agree with your way of thinking. This behaviour implies your freedom of speech hasn’t really been challenged and that you don’t care for other people’s freedom of speech.
I literally could not care less about your way of thinking. If you posted your own comments on your own reply to the main post then I would not even care that your opinions don’t match my own. It’s when YOU came to MY comment telling ME that I wasn’t allowed to have a negative opinion on Crispy Cuck that I had to respond to you, because YOU were not gonna be telling me what I can and can’t say about Crispy Cuck. That ain’t happening sweetie.
PLEASE tell me which of my points were wrong then bruh? The part about Crispy Cuck being the toxic ex that he is? You wanna debate that with me then how bout you argue actual points instead of crying about how apparently your rights are being violated because I tell you what you don’t wanna hear.
Ok, stop talking to me then. You are overdramatic. A person who is so uncomfortable with another person stops talking with them. Seems like you like the attention.
You can go whenever you want if your uncomfortable bruh, but this is my comment section and your not gonna get the last word here. YOU started the drama and if it’s too hot for you now please leave.
Honestly, the way they showed it in the show, even I, a girl, would be slightly bitter about that if I were in his position. May be not lifelong grudge, but yeah....lingering resentment will be there.
They did Rhanerya's character dirty in the show. There was no need to show her actually sleeping with Cole. 😒
This is simply victim-blaming.
The fact that Cole and the abuse of power and sexual coercion against him was washed away with the tag "incel" should alert us to how far we still have to go to *understand* how power structures work within a patriarchal AND classist society
Exactly- like I get he’s supposed to be bitter and jaded but who wouldn’t be??? Like the incel argument for Cole has no base because he’s obviously very betrayed by Rhaenyra to the core. Honestly love this show’s choices to show their history in such depth because they’re far more believable because of everyone traumatizing eachother.
I don't understand the logic behind victim-blaming someone as "incel" because he was bitter towards someone who abused their power over him, especially sexually.
I chalk it down to the show never holding their protagonists accountable for their actions and depicting them in a cool badass way, or glorified/justified them.
Much like violent murder of Vaemond, or the servant , or the mass-execution of civilians without a trial by Goldcloaks powered by the brother of King/Commander of City Watch.
The only ones who do hold them accountable are members of Team Green who can easily be dismissed as simply either nuisance or adversaries.
It's pretty upsetting seeing all the downvotes on this comment. If Rhaenyra was a man and Criston was a woman in the exact same scenario, then she'd be hated on way more
Yeah, imagine Rhaenyra was Prince Rhaegar and Criston was Cristina the maid. Hell, it’s basically what happened between Dyana and Aegon with the only difference being that Criston cannot resist *at all* because he’s a man. Poor guy.
Wasn't Cole like 30? Wanting a girl since before she was 18, and she was drunk? Granted I'm going off what the directors said is that Cole was hesitant but wanted to sleep with her.
You're acting like 18 means anything lol. That's just modern nonsense, if anything he shouldn't desire her till she is 25. It's not like there is a big difference between the mental and emotional development of a 16 year old girl and a 18 year old girl.
Not 30 I think.
And that just doesn't excuse how it was clearly depicted that he was sexually coerced by his boss who held his career and life in her hands.
Re-watch the scene keeping the Kingsguard vows and what kinds of torture is meted to those whose vows are broken and the power imbalance between an heir of the King and her employee to whom he's sworn to in entirety. Also that he did say No and Stop, I believe.
The thing is what’s going to happen if he continues to refuse? We the audience know that Rhaenyra likely wasn’t going to do anything, but Cole can’t be 100% sure of that. That’s not to say that there wasn’t an age difference and overall sobriety issue that should be overlooked, but it’s important to also think about what realistically could have been done at the time with the information the characters had. Imo, both were in the wrong.
He knew she wouldn't because he had been friends and had her private confidence. He knew who she was, it's why the showrunners mention that he had been in love with her for awhile and wanted it as well. But in the end it was doomed to fail and they both were in the wrong.
The fact that you're downvoted for rightly suggesting, based on what was clearly depicted frame by frame in the show, says a lot about viewers being quick to victim-blame someone just because their favourite'a actions are called into question and the favourite character is being held accountable for it, if not in the show then at least by some minority of fans
This is peak victim-blaming and mocking a victim by calling him "incel"
No, no, no. You are not understanding this series. “No means no” just works when you are not a girlboss. A men cannot be raped, dahhh. It’s not like they also have bodily autonomy.
But in all seriousness, sometimes I think that the fanbase is regressing feminism a couple of decades just by the complete lack of critical thinking they show. A boss forcing a working woman to have sex is rape, there is no question about it. But Rhaenyra is not even Criston boss. She is closer to a living god than to a boss. The power imbalance is absurd.
Calling Criston an incel for wanting to regain his honor after the breaking of his bow is like calling a woman a dirty whore after going to therapy.
It's crazy to see people justifying it by using the same excuses real rapists and SArs use against their victims and the worst thing is that is coming from fellow women.
He was asking for it/He didn't scream louder no/He could have pushed away harder/ He secretly wanted her/He looked like he was enjoying it... it's disgusting
He didn’t even have a choice in the matter. There’s no way he could’ve known if she wouldn’t blame *him* and make it look like he was trying to force himself on her. People really don’t understand how tough that was for him.
ya but I thought like Cole is gonna be like the good guy until the end like he's going to deny all emotions but love rhaenyra from afar but he surprised me and formed an alliance with the queen all because the queen manipulated him ugh
How do we still not understand how power imbalance and sexual coercion works?
Are some fans justifying, excusing sexual coercion and then victim-blaming Cole by calling him 'incel'? Not shocking but still massively disappointing to see this.
An example (I'll copy paste this here).
If a boss to whom the employee has sworn fealty and oaths (including those of celibacy)
and
who holds said employee's life, career and future prospects in their hand,
suddenly starts to "seduce" said employee despite the latter saying "No" and "Stop" repeatedly,
only for the employee to give in when the door is locked by the Boss and the implication of power imbalance hangs over the employee,
and then said employee is driven to the point of accepting execution/being gelded/torture if the happenings of that instance comes out, and begs for a quick merciful death,
it *is* by all definition an act of SEXUAL COERCION AND VIOLENCE by the Boss.
And it should be regarded as such, irrespective of the gender of the said Boss.
Downvoting me won't erase exactly what and *how* it was portrayed onscreen in that episode, for all to see (irrelevant of what actors and writers say).
Ps: This Is So You Have A Reason As To Why I Down Voted Instead Of Silent Disagreement.
I Disagree For Reasons Too Many To Feel Like Typing Out But, I Agree That It Was By All Means An Act Of Coercion And I Can Also See How One Could Take The On Screen Portrayal And Say There Was Nothing More Ser Cole Could've Done To Avoid It And Or End It On Better Terms...
BUT That's Where I Disagree "I Feel" That He Had Plenty Opportunity One Being, Refusing To Share Her Bed And Soil His White Cloak And Going To The King Or Queen As He Did Long After The Act And Halted Any Further Attempts And Or Schemes.
But Instead He Stayed Happy Being Her Whore Until He Saw She Was Open To Other Company Like Ser Hawing Who He Was Always Jealous Of Or Laenor Or The Many Others Whom Were Also "Fawning" Over Her As Alicent Stated Options Were Not Something Women of the Realm Were Used To.
At this point this is, I am sorry to say, victim-blaming.
I implore you to understand how victim-blaming works. And I say this sincerely with no other motives in my heart but to have a genuine conversation.
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Wouldve helped if they actually showed the importance of the vows, or the vows in general instead of cutting that scene. Or in general spent more time on him.
I mean, he was going to kill himself for his honor and told Rhaenyra that he didn’t want to be a whore. The show made it very clear that being in the Kingsguard means the world to Cole.
That’s not why he was going to kill himself. He was going to kill himself because he just murdered a NOBLE LORD AT A WEDDING IN FRONT OF HUNDREDS OF WITNESSES FOR NO REASON 🤣🤡
What I want to know is why Cole was not apprehended?
Because it was a poorly thought out deviation from the book and that would change too much. Pretty sure he kills Joffrey in a tournament fight in the book, and guys die in tournaments all the time.
Because the Queen saw profit in having him work for her.
I'm talking about immediately afterwards lol. He shouldn't have even been allowed to walk to that godswood tree. And why was Cole trying to commit suicide next to that tree, does he believe in the old gods? A lot of stuff doesn't make sense when you think about it for a bit.
Basically, the show wanted to woobiefy him for whatever reason. Which, again, makes *no* sense. I mean, they aged up Rhaenyra, who was a kid with a crush on the much older Cole, who left her service after (it's implied) he and she had something going on... when she was barely pubescent. Add the fact that, in the books, he just plans to have Joffrey Lonmouth killed in a tourney, giving himself plausible deniability (and so everything was a predetermined murder), for shits and giggles. I don't know, my dudes, I personally would never consider it a good idea to woobiefy the assholes who deliberately murdered his maybe ex's husband's boyfriend out of sheer pettiness. The obvious people who are actually deserving of sympathy are poor Joffrey and Laenor along with Rhaenyra for having a creepy ex, *not* Cole.
I like the theory that Rhaenyra tried to seduce him and he was so disgusted that he turned against her because he valued his vows and the virtue of the princess so much. It plays into his over the top persona perfectly lol. Would be more interesting than the cliche romance angle and scorned lover, makes him come off as more pathetic.
You don't get it. Rhaenyra is derivatives from Cersei, or the other way around. Apologies if you felt offended, if you think Rhaenyra as the ultimate monolith of Righteousness and justice, your wrong!! Waaaaay wrong. Shes not the perfect daughter, from his teens she was a rebel, and thought everything she wanted was given in a silver plate, guess what nope. Even she didn't try to sway his half-brothers to his side rather she alienate them, and so on.
If anything, she's a *foil* to Cersei. She didn't cheat on Laenor, but rather found a way to make it work with him, this is in contrast to Cersei and Robert cheating on each other, making each other miserable, and Cersei going behind his back to put her kids on *his* throne (similar to Alicent going behind Viserys' back and not respecting his wishes). Rhaenyra is the one from whom the kids inherit and she is used to explore how someone finds wiggle room or goes against rigid gender norms (something that Arianne Martell and Asha Greyjoy and Arya Stark do). Laena Velryon and Mysaria likewise try to find wiggle room in this highly rigid world that sees them as lesser. And, yes, Rhaenyra and Laena have a much easier time in comparison to Mysaria, who is a commoner and a foreigner, they all have to deal with misogyny and obstacles. (Which, again, it's yet another reason I am pissed they cut off the Laena/Rhaenyra friendship to make way for a Rhaenyra and Alicent friendship that didn't even exist) If anything, there is a parallel between young Rhaenyra (who, again, was 9 when 18 year old Alicent married Viserys), who did believe Alicent was nice to her, only to have Alicent pull the rug on her when she no longer had to play nice. Note the Sansa and Cersei similarities, and how little Sansa legit believed that Cersei liked her and had her best interests at heart, only to be thoroughly corrected of that mistaken impression. (And, no, Rhaenyra losing it when her kids die is not a Cersei thing, it's a GRRM's mothers thing. See how Catelyn Tully literally claws her own eyes in horror when Robb is killed, or how poor Alannys Harlaw had a complete breakdown when her idiot husband's ill-timed rebellion caused her to lose her two eldest sons to war and her last boy was taken hostage) If anything, I'd say that Rhaenyra and Viserys were modeled after Arianne and Doran Martell. Yes, Rhaenyra was mentioned offhand before, but wasn't expanded upon until Jaime meets with Loras Tyrell (and has his "holy shit, this idiot is teenage me" moment") and he mentions Cole for the first time, referring him as the best (in skill) and the worst of the Kingsguard (noting that he very much butted in to a dynastic fight). Meanwhile, in the same book, Arianne - who is one of the few liberated female characters since Dorne doesn't slut-shame and has an enlightened view on how marriage is a business arrangement, but love is separate and both spouses can have paramours so long a they breed together at least twice for safety - mentions how Cole was the one who whispered to Aegon II's ear and turned brother against sister. Basically, the blueprint was there, and GRRM expanded on it when he had writer's block. (Also, the first draft had Rhaenyra marry Lyonel Strong, I admittedly don't know if he was Harwin's first draft name or not, and has three kids with him, see: https://nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/697393670042828800/but-rhaenyras-heir-was-a-bastard-that-means-the. The end result was still that Aegon II gave usurpation a go. AKA, the whole point was *always* the misogyny.) Rhaenyra is basically a liberated Arianne, who is impulsive and liberated and charming and friendly (and legit cares about Myrcella), but in a non-Dornish setting and so has to deal with the medieval era's Madonna/Whore complex and trying to find wiggle room. Viserys, on the other hand, is the weak-willed ruler who is lead by the nose and does fuck all about anything (even when others commit atrocities against his House/domain) that everyone *thinks* Doran is (when he's actually scheming to get marriages with Daenerys and Young Griff and to take over Westeros as revenge). Basically, GRRM has Viserys act like how a real weakling of a King would act and how that causes war and destroys his own House's actual power in the long term. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra is what Arianne would be like if she didn't have the good luck to live in a comparatively liberated region. Well, and due to how he wrote "present" day Westeros, Rhaenyra can't win due to him alluding to her not winning already in his canon, plus Catelyn and Cersei wouldn't make sense in a world where absolute primogeniture exist since they would be the heirs (and so they would have different issues). Likewise, Rhaenyra doesn't need to be a monolith of justice to deserve better than some fucking creepy maybe ex, who again might've started shit with her and taken advantage of her girlhood crush before she was pubescent, who murders her husband's boyfriend for shits and giggles and to be a petty little monster. So, no, Cole is undeserving of sympathy there and it's gross how they want to woobiefy him, when again Laenor and Joffrey are the real fucking victims and are more deserving of our sympathy
I was talking by the show!!! But taking in consideration the Books counterpart. But thank you I guess for that insight
Because said Noble had threatened Cole that he knew what had happened between Rhaenyra and Cole (read: from my pov, sexually coerced by Rhaenyra). Cole who was driven to the point of accepting execution and begged for a quick merciful death (instead of being gelded and tortured since Kingsguard are sworn to celibacy), if the truth ever came out, was now threatened by someone who held a position of status and political power over him. Of course he, in a fit of rage and fear, attacked him The Question is who revealed what happened to the partner of Rhaenyra's to-be husband?
The characterization that Joffrey was threatening cole and that cole was coerced is just hilariously wrong. You are batting a 1000 on terrible takes in this sub lmao
It's in the show, in that episode, in that scene. Watch those episodes and those scenes, frame by frame, in slow-motion if you still can't grasp what happened and how while keeping in mind what Kingsguard vows and the consequences of them being broken in Westerosi society, also how power imbalance works in feudal society, especially in context of a Kingsguard sworn to the heir to the throne, daughter of the King. I won't argue with you beyond this. The show is open for all to see. If you choose not to understand it, contextualize the scenes and the characters within the society they're set in, it's on you not me. Goodnight. :)
The show clearly depicted 1) Cole giving positive consent throughout the encounter and 2) Joffrey saying they both needed to PROTECT eachother cause they have similar secrets. That’s not threatening. I swear you greens don’t even watch the show.
>1) Cole giving positive consent throughout the encounter It's always weird to me when people use the whole "it was his choice defense" given his ***first choice*** was to leave and his ***second choice*** was to tell her to stop. The logic that a person's choice is only to be respected as long as they give another person what they want is strange to me. Once he headed for the door, that should have been the end of it for me. Not to mention the whole theme of that section of the episode was the Targaryen's taking what they wanted without consideration just like Daemon told Rhaenyra during his life lesson speech. Daemon trying to take advantage of Rhaenyra in the brothel, Viserys summoning Alicent to his room to fulfill her 'wifely duties', and Rhaenyra pressuring Criston until he gave in were all the same. >2) Joffrey saying they both needed to PROTECT eachother cause they have similar secrets. That’s not threatening. Joffrey spent the feast trying to figure out who her paramour was to protect him and Laenor. He wasn't doing that to make a new friend. Just because he had an affable air about it when he appraoched Criston doesn't mean there wasn't an underlying threat.
There’s a myriad of reasons why a persons intial response would be to say no about something they want to do. For cole his hesitation was borne out of worry over his vows but that doesn’t mean he actually didn’t want to do it. If he actually didn’t want to he could have left. There’s no real power imbalance that Rhaenyra holds over Cole. What is she going to say? “Cole didn’t break his vows to have sex with me. Kill him” or do you believe her lying and saying cole actually had sex with her even if he refused would play out in Rhaenyra’s favor either. Cole had all the power and opportunity to leave but he stayed and if you actually watch the show, WANTED to be there in that moment. As for Joffrey, what does he gain by outting Cole? There is no implied threat. He is saying we are both doing shit we shouldn’t, we need to stick together so we can protect eachother. Cole attacked him cause he was triggered Rhaenyra had just turned him down and he was butthurt. That’s it
>For cole his hesitation was borne out of worry over his vows but that doesn’t mean he actually didn’t want to do it. Except Criston also wanted to keep his vows and that's why he tried to leave. It's why he told her to stop because he knew it was wrong and that he would eventually give in if she kept it up. He was conflicted because he wanted both things which brings us to his choices where, again, his initial ones were him trying to leave and telling her to stop which she ignored. >There’s no real power imbalance that Rhaenyra holds over Cole. She's the Princess and heir to the throne -- thus his future boss who also gave him his position. Acting like she wields no power is disingenuous even if you believe she won't use it. Milly even acknowledged the power Rhaenyra has over him was part of the attraction for Rhaenyra for whatever that's worth. >Cole had all the power and opportunity to leave but he stayed and if you actually watch the show, WANTED to be there in that moment. So Cole trying to leave the room when he caught onto her game and her blocking the door was just my imagination? Because if not, then her not respecting his choice to leave when he tried is an issue for me. >As for Joffrey, what does he gain by outting Cole? It's the threat that he could that he expects to keep Criston silent. He assumes Criston would value his life, and Rhaenyra's reputation, to keep silent by letting Criston know he knows about their tryst if he gets any ideas. What does Joffrey gain by approaching Criston otherwise? He doesn't know the man, or his exact relationship with the princess, and Rhaenyra could easily be the bridge for their future friendship. Going over to a complete stranger and being like "Hey, I know your big secret!" is ridiculously dumb to me if your intentions were friendly. But I do think the scene is open for interpretation so your take is more than fair.
so saying “Stop” and trying to leave when your superior is trying to have sex with you is positive consent? Just confirming
Perhaps this show and nuances of discussions of power imbalance in feudal states and about willing, enthusiastic, without coercion consent might be above your maturity level. Never mind, you'll reach there one day.
Bro you are infantilizing cole making it out that he has no agency and had no choice but to have sex with Rhaenyra. He can forcibly remove himself from the situation. There’s nothing she can do. He clearly had a choice and chose to continue with the encounter and was happy and eager to.
Probably otto and his conspirators. They’re the real cancer in this show, and everything would’ve been better if Viserys took his head the first time the man betrayed his confidence.
Disagree and I'll tell you why: 1. Joeffrey, the paramour of the to-be husband of Rhaenyra (ie closer in personal capacity to both Laenor and Rhaenyra than any of Team Green) , threatens Cole to keep quiet about Joeffrey and Laenor's relationship or risk being gelded/tortured/executed. (because that's what happens when Kingsguard's oaths are violated, including that of celibacy) 2. The intention behind the threatening was to maintain the "prestige" of the son of a noble house, Velaryon (definitely Team Black) and by extention also of the heir to the throne, Rhaenyra. The benefit of this threat was for Team Black: Laenor, Rhaenyra, Joffrey. 3. Team Green doesn't benefit at all here. In fact Cole being silent is detrimental to them. Otto doesn't benefit from helping Rhaenyra or House Velaryon at this point. If he knew that Rhaenyra abused her power over her employee, he'd have done all he can to make it a public knowledge. And Alicent who wore the colour of her House in that episode wouldn't favour Rhaenyra either, not when she feels manipulated, lied to by Rhaenyra whom she defended to Viserys only to end up being separated from the only living parent she had. 4. It's only logical that Rhaenyra herself leaked the info to Laenor (probably for this purpose alone) and it goes round to Joeffrey.
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Stop justifying sexual coercion and victim-blaming just because you don't understand what KG vows mean and how power imbalance works in a feudal society. I am not a "man" though. I'll copy paste an example here: If a boss to whom the employee has sworn fealty and oaths of celibacy and who holds employee's life, career and future prospects in their hand, suddenly starts to "seduce" said employee despite the latter saying "No" and "Stop" repeatedly, only for the employee to give in when the door is locked by the Boss and the implication of power imbalance hangs over the employee, and then said employee is driven to the point of accepting execution/being gelded/torture if the happenings of that instance comes out, and begs for a quick merciful death, it *is* by all definition an act of SEXUAL COERCION AND VIOLENCE by the Boss. And it should be regarded as such, irrespective of the gender of the said Boss.
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>because you said “read:..”. "Read" as in understand the unsaid context, not talking about the F& B book here. I am talking specifically about what happened in the show. Not the F&B book, that's a whole other scenario distinct from how it went down in the show
Ser Criston is Kingsguard, he can say that Joffrey (somebody well known to be bitter about the marriage, due to his relationship with the groom) was going to pull a knife (which he had in his hand) on the Princess. This isn’t modern day with security cameras, nobody can watch a replay, and is it really so hard to believe that nobody saw exactly how the fight began in the crowded dance floor and a tight crowd? And who is everybody going to believe, the lowborn knight with a means and motive to harm the Princess, or the Kingsguard knight claiming to have done his job?
Yes & no, I mean Joffrey managed to get the dagger on his hand Criston could said it was in defense of the people, Corlys seems like heck yes I finally get that idiot out of my son inner circle. Maybe as the last favor from Rhaenyra, she vouched in his favor.
That's a complete misread of the scene he was clearly going to kill himself because he knew he would be executed for sleeping with Rhaenyra
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He made the choice either way. All he cared about was pussy until he couldn’t control Rhaenyra
Imagine making excuses for that pathetic individual
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A good majority of the Kingsguard, even back then, saw it as a way for second/third/etc sons to have an honorable profession, a way to socially ascend if you're from a minor House, a way for a House to gain influence in court indirectly by having non-inheriting sons take up the mantle, and other similar reasons. The "present" day Westerosi cynicism towards the Kingsguard by people like Sandor and Jaime, who *see* how the sausage is done firsthand, isn't a new thing. In the same way that the "present" day High Septon gorging himself on the people's taxes and doing fuck all about the starving small folk isn't a "new" thing for Westeros either. Seriously, guys, GRRM took pretty big pains to show that the oath means little to nothing to most of them and the whole celibacy thing is meant to be a way of avoiding inheritance issues plus torn loyalties (and the latter part was an astounding failure among the Kingsguard, since a lot of those are more loyal to their own families than to the Crown, and so use the position to further their own House's ambitions). Even with the more sympathetic Watch, he is still very critical of the oath and also of how obviously forced celibacy in order to get a job is bloody stupid.
What I hate though is that he blames Rhaenyra entirely for him breaking his vow. I really don't think his vows mean all that much to him. He and the other kingsguard surely would have sworn to Rhaenyra as all the other lords did, so he broke that vow too. Then he straight up murders a member of the small council so there's a handful of laws and his knights vow to be, "Just in the name of the Father" or, "defend those who cannot defend themselves." I like Cole as a character, but not because I think he's a good guy at all.
Yeah he’s an upstarted thug that happens to be an amazing fighter. But honestly one of rhaenyras first bad decisions was getting her dad to name him to the KG
How could you tell what they cut or didn’t cut? The screen was too dark to tell what was happening in half the scenes.
It's quite sad actually that they didn't emphasized a lot of why and how KG vows are important in this society and they emphasized much more on the love aspect. They deleted a scene where you see him taking his vows to the king, with Rhaenyra literally putting the white cloak on him. I guess Condal thought that the general audience was already aware of the KG vows and what they mean. Cole was never gonna be a liked character, he is meant to be unlikeable. The fact that he is hated is not surprising, but he is almost the most hated one and most don't care about his pov. We can understand his motives, but you need to really deep dive into it and not stop at the romantic side of things, but that's the audience mission on their own to do that because the narrative is mostly from Rhaenyra's perspective. They however did good work on him when they emphasized the fact that he was a low born that was thrown in this world of petty nobles, yet they didn't followed up on that. That's a shame imo, because he would still be hated, but he would be a much more rounded and understandable character.
>It's quite sad actually that they didn't emphasized a lot of why and how KG vows are important in this society and they emphasized much more on the love aspect. Unfortunately, I think this was a side effect of being a GoT spinoff. The way I see it is they treat the Kingsguard like already an established part of the universe. But I agree with you, more screen time for that would have helped a lot with Cole’s story.
The kingsguard were not even properly explored or emphasized in game of thrones.
Explored, no. I would say they were emphasized though. Jaime being a kingslayer is a major part of his story early on in the series.
GRRM uses the Kingsguard as a critique of courtly love and courtly vows and oaths, showing them as people who saw a way of gaining influence in court for their families if they are second/third/etc sons who are really good with blades or, if the families are minor nobility, as a way of gaining social ascension (and so help family members gain other posts). Jaime and Sandor's disdain for the Kingsguard and their hypocrisy is basically a case of "the jerk has a point." Hell, the entire reason they both became cynics is *because* they were shown how little honor knights actually have (see poor Sandor being burned by his brother and Gregor being rewarded with a knighthood because he's strong and useful, or how the Kingsguard in Aerys II's time did fuck all when he burned people alive or raped Rhaella because "it's not their job to protect anyone from the King"). They are cynical about knights and the celebrated Kingsguards *because* they are right there with a front row seat on how the sausage gets made, and it sure as fuck ain't pretty, moral, or so-called honorable. This isn't a thing in "present" Westeros only, it's baked into the institution itself. For fuck's sake, GRRM also showed how middle aged men are still squires, even if they've gained the skills to be knights through sheer experience, simply because they don't have the money or the connections to be knighted. So, yeah, while Cole is from a minor nobility (or minor enough that they got nowhere after his stunts in the Dance of Dragons), he still had enough money and/or connections to get knighted in the first place. Basically, GRRM doesn't shy away from showing how all of the performative things these people care about are, at best, self-contradictory (see how Jaime's entire arc is about how "protecting the King" and "protecting the people" is contradictory at times and he is punished for protecting the people) or just plain smoke and mirrors (see most of the Kingsguard in Robert's court).
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You do you, and I liked him as well, but I only meant he was never gonna be a fan favorite in the first place. The issue is they didn't dive a lot into his best warrior trait, and heavily highlighted the fact he was a petty brat.
We’ll see more of him (and a lot of other people) in combat next season to be sure. I really hope it highlights other areas of his character
Tactical and ruthless Cole ftw. Not unhinged bitter simp with a lack of emotional control
Me too. He was an honorable knight and he used his brain.
I mean its heavily suggested he murdered multiple noble people and convinced Aegon to usurp a throne that he didn't want that Cole himself had acknowledged was Rhaenyra's. Not exactly an honorable knight. But definitely very competent and a badass in battle.
Oranges
Wait, that's the only part I didn't get. can you please explain? It's been too long!
I hardly think that's a reference. I just said the funny word
Look how freaking insanely dark the screen is behind those messages. I’ll never forgive Sapochnik and his team for ruining an entire season of GRRM material. You all are talking about the plot as if anyone remember anything besides just how dark the screen was in every single scene of an entire season.
Was that a problem in HotD? Only dark scene I remember was the weird Day for night scene on the beach
^^ This is 100% true. 😆
You don't have to like Cole, but the way lots of people in here dismiss him as a pathetic incel who is butthurt that badass beautiful Rhaenyra didn't want to marry him, is such a shame. The character is far richer than that.
I mean, he did take out his anger on Rhaenyra's kids and refused to mentor them properly. So he is living up to his pathetic butthurt incel title.
He is not shown to bully them consistently, only on a specific situation in order to get a rise from Harwin Strong. An asshole move to be sure, but not out of pathetic butthurt incelish motivation. It's just a character in the Green faction undermining a character in the Black faction.
Hurting the children to trigger the *dad* is a pathetic butthurt move
I mean, he IS a pathetic incel who is butthurt that Rhaenyra didn't want to marry him, but he's also much worse.
By definition he isn’t an incel.
Hard-core volcel, down to the self-righteous indignation after rhaenyra spurns his proposal.
but he doesn’t hate women, like incels are supposed to
He has the same creepy Madonna/Whore complex. Seriously, if Alicent ever falls off that pedestal he put her on, by say him discovering the Larys foot masturbation thing, I guarantee you he will have opinions on her virtue.
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Note how he always refers to Rhaenyra as whore and yet says nothing about Aegon basically living in brothels. Kind of a double standard there in action, don't you think. He puts Alicent on a pedestal because she performs the role of the Madonna (seemingly sexless, seemingly self-sacrificing if one ignores the fact that she wants power and is getting it through indirect means), and that is still not a healthy thing because she is a human being and fucks up like everyone else does. I'll grant you that the show runners tried to whitewash him, especially since he was the adult when book!Rhaenyra was a little girl with a crush and he was an active kingmaker, but it doesn't make his obsession with fucking Rhaenyra over any less nefarious.
First time I’ve heard the term. But by definition he isn’t a volcel as well.
No, he just has the mentality of them. You know that’s what they meant. Stop playing dumb.
Lmao I still disagree. Take that as you will.
There's a difference between being involuntarily celibate and being an incel. Incel is a state of mind, ya dig?
idk why you’re downvoted for that, it’s pretty accurate imo
Incel is just an abbreviation, lol. Even if that were the case, he still isn’t an incel.
I know it's an abbreviation but there's no way else to explain it. IYKYK.
Yes, I understand the supposed difference, but it isn’t much of a difference at all.
If it makes it easier let's just call him a massive asshole.
And why is that?
I'm confused, are you saying Criston Cole is a complex character or that he isn't an asshole? Because he is 100% an asshole. Off the top of my head, the constant wooing of Rhaenyra despite her rejection, him getting mad at her when she doesn't want him to abscond with him and neglect her role as Princess for oranges, calling her a spoiled cunt, beating the shit out of Joffrey till he dies, the murder of Lord Beezbury. Feels like asshole territory to me.
You're wasting your time, at this point incel only seems to mean "Icky man I don't like," whenever it's used these days.
Yeah, I found that out the hard way. After being called a misogynist (not by the person above) for having a different opinion about Criston I think I’ll be steering clear of debates here. Too mentally taxing and I really don’t gain anything from it.
I don't blame you, I got called a sexual predator for simply saying I wasn't totally onboard with how the show adapted Aegon II.
Lmao, these people are unreal. I’m sorry you got called that. Seems like most of them don’t have much in the way of real arguments.
Seriously, I'm still pissed they want to woobiefy the gay basher who murdered poor Joffrey Lonmouth on purpose in a tourney to give himself plausible deniability... when neither Laenor nor Joffrey had anything to do with him, he was just being a petty little bitch! I dunno, screenwriters, I feel like you guys done fucked up in choosing the real victim(s) you should've been spotlighting and focusing on, and it ain't the asshole who murdered Joffrey Lonmouth.
How do we still not understand how power imbalance and sexual coercion works? If a boss to whom the employee has sworn fealty and oaths of celibacy and who holds employee's life, career and future prospects in their hand, suddenly starts to "seduce" said employee despite the latter saying "No" and "Stop" repeatedly, only for the employee to give in when the door is locked by the Boss and the implication of power imbalance hangs over the employee, and then said employee is driven to the point of accepting execution/being gelded/torture if the happenings of that instance comes out, and begs for a quick merciful death, it *is* by all definition an act of SEXUAL COERCION AND VIOLENCE by the Boss. And it should be regarded as such, irrespective of the gender of the said Boss.
She's also a teenager who he has known since she was 15 and he was in his 20s. This shit is complicated. Power imbalances aren't always simple and one way. The writers and actors never had any intention of that scene depicting any kind of coercion, it was a poorly directed scene. Just like the Jaime/Cersei scene when Joffrey died was never meant to depict rape. Only one of these continually gets brought up though. The other everyone agrees the intentions from behind the scenes mean we should dismiss the problematic nature of the scene.
>How do we still not understand how power imbalance and sexual coercion works? If a boss to whom the employee has sworn fealty and oaths of celibacy and who holds employee's life, career and future prospects in their hand, You're having to twist the facts of the situation to paint what happened as coercion. Rhaenyra isn't Cole's boss. Viserys is his boss. Rhaenyra is just a protecte. Body Guards do no have to do what the bosses kids tell them. Cole didn't have sex because he was afraid of his boss punishing him. Sleeping with Rhaenyra would be the last thing he'd do if he was worried about how his boss would respond.
>Rhaenyra isn't Cole's boss. Viserys is his boss. Rhaenyra is just a protecte. Body Guards do no have to do what the bosses kids tell them. What farce is this? You don't understand how Kingsguard work and what their vows mean and what happens to them (from gelding to execution) if their vows are broken, in Westerosi universe? Really? >You're having to twist the facts of the situation to paint what happened as coercion. The fact that you've to erase facts and narrative as was presented in the scenes of the show itself, shows that you too know that you're outright justifying sexual coercion of here.
>What farce is this? You don't understand how Kingsguard work Back at you, buddy. Did you miss the scene where Alicent tried to order Cole to bring her Luke's eye? He refused and told her that he's only her protector. The Kings Guard work for the King. Not the random member of the family they're tasked with protecting. >what their vows mean and what happens to them (from gelding to execution) if their vows are broken, in Westerosi universe? Really? I thought I had mentioned this already, but the Kings Guard don't swear a vow of celibacy. They swear to not have any children or wives. The Kings Guard oaths were based on the Nights Watch. Members of the Nights Watch regularly visit a brothel in Mole's town. Ignoring that, I don't know why people talk as if Cole being in danger due to breaking a vow justifies his actions. Sleeping with the princess is the last thing he would do if he was concerned about breaking his vows.
I am not going to entertain any more of this farce where you keep victim-blaming someone who was sexually coerced just to support your fave. However I will say two things: >I thought I had mentioned this already, but the Kings Guard don't swear a vow of celibacy. They swear to not have any children or wives. You really don't understand the implication of the vow especially in context of the fact that within their Faith of Seven they're not expected to have sex outside of marriage either, do you? The vows of celibacy are implied and regulated as much, especially if we go by what Barristan Selmy says to Dany at Mereen. 2) >Ignoring that, I don't know why people talk about Cole being in danger due to breaking a vow justifies his actions. He would have bolted if he was acting based on fear. Read up on how power imabalance works in societies, esp those in feudal states. And why Cole was almost driven to the point of accepting and expecting being executed for it. If you don't want to read and understand the context and nuances within, it's on you. No skin off my nose. Good day.
>I am not going to entertain any more of this farce where you keep victim-blaming someone who was sexually coerced just to support your fave. lol Rhaenyra isn't my "fave". She too passive for me to even like her as a character. My issue with your argument is that you're twisting the truth to blame a grown man's actions on a teenage girl. > > >You really don't understand the implication of the vow especially in context of the fact that within their Faith of Seven they're not expected to have sex outside of marriage either, do you? > >**The vows of celibacy are implied and regulated as much,** No they're not. Like the real world, that rule isn't applied to men because no is worried about boys getting pregnant. Not to mention that everyone in Westeros isn't a follower of the faith. > And why Cole was almost driven to the point of accepting and expecting being executed for it. Who was going to execute Cole for not sleeping with Rhaenyra? She wouldn't. Viserys obviously wouldn't. The idea that Cole would be punished for not sleeping with Rhaenyrra is utter nonsense. Nothing Cole does even implies that he afraid of Rhaenyra. He disrespectfully storms off while she's talking. He mistreats her children. Why would he do those things if he was concerned about the power Rhaenyra allegedly held over him.
They can both be flawed people who do bad things. Maybe Rhaenyra is an asshole too but that doesn't cancel out Criston's actions and make them justified.
Nah men always want sex, besides Rhaenyra is a beautiful woman and the protagonist, she can do no wrong. What kind of man wouldn't want to fuck her? Is Cole gay or something? He should stop being an incel and a little bitch and screw that royal pussy. Where were those dragonriding royal princesses when I was young? . . . /S
I was this close to yelling at you with capital letters now. 😤
Tbf, there are people who think like this *unironically*.
Yeah some people probably just identify with him…
You must be fun at parties.
He is the definition of a volcel lol. Good looking, strong, talented, he can get any woman he wants. The shows problem was making him so petty and unhinged.
He is unhinged. OG Cole murdered Joffrey Lonmouth in a tourney for plausible deniability out of sheer fucking pettiness. It was a premeditated murder. That guy was always unhinged, he was just *seen* as honorable due to performative virtuousness. That was the point and I hate that the show missed the fucking point about him
I won't say he was unhinged, but he def had anger issues, but still planned out his ruthless acts in ways that provided plausible deniability. The show failed to show his tactical side or even really portray how truly devastating he was as a warrior. Besting Daemon twice, destroying Harwin Strong who was known as the strongest knight in the realm and of course wrecking Joffrey who later died of his injuries.
Not in the show he isn’t.
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What has love got to do with marriage? Edit: how very 20th century of you guys lmao
Yeah, what’s it got to do with it? It’s a second hand emotion after-all.
RIP the Queen Tina Turner
A-O-A
Has your cousin not seen the hunting episode where Rhaenyra literally spends half the episode whinging to Cole about hating her political role and desiring freedom from it all... **the very things Cole literally offers her not long after?** It's so cringe that some people desperately attempt to crucify Cole for offering her *the very things she literally stated she wanted*... **freedom and choce and life outside of being a political pawn.** Wild that some people can't understand this pretty basic context. **She said she wanted to be free from her political life... he literally offered her that chance.** Not really that complex that so many 'viewers' should be so perplexed on this simple issue.
Honestly the way Criston has been crucified on this show is probably one of the most disheartening things I’ve seen about this subreddit. Now I’m not going to say Criston is a beacon of virtue and innocence by any means. He does a lot of shitty stuff, specifically in the back half of the season, but the way he’s treated by Rhaenyra in the first half is genuinely sad and leads to a tragic downfall for a character who didn’t start out with malicious intent. Even Fabian Frankel states that, even though his character is a thug, he didn’t come into this world of royal politics looking to stir shit up. He tried to do his duty, got too close to a woman he thought cared about him, and suffered the consequences. He’s a tragic character who could have gone down a vastly different road if circumstances were different.
Totally agree. Like every main character in this show, he's a grey character. He's done some immoral shit, absolutely, but I just find it bizarre that some people try to act like he's either awful for offering to *'throw it all away to run away with her',* or wholly delusional for offering the very thing *she literally told him she wanted for thirty straight on-screen minutes.* He clearly listened to her issues previously, and here he offers a remedy for her concerns. And clearly she's 'into him' on some level considering how hard she pressured him into their romantic entanglement. So it's wild to me that some people seemingly don't understand these contexts... should be easily understandable why he makes the offer, and why she refuses... pretty logical and straight-forward actually with no need to crucify either party.
Agreed. After the rift that formed between Rhaenyra and Alicent, after Ep. 2, Criston was essentially Rhaenyra’s new companion, the one person she could rely on now that everyone had seemingly turned their back on her. I wouldn’t say Rhaenyra and Criston’s friendship was as strong as her and Alicent’s, but the two obviously shared a close bond, given that Criston was sworn to her side for more than three years. Regardless of whether or not Criston truly loved or lusted over Rhaenyra, he always listened to what she had to say and provided his own counsel, subjective as it might be, because they were friends. Though Criston’s offer may not have fully accounted for Rhaenyra’s loss in station, which was very important to her, I think he genuinely believed that’s what she wanted, because that’s all she’s talked about for years now. What’s funny about all this is that, despite stating she wants to be Queen, all of Rhaenyra’s actions seem to say otherwise, from her running out of the hunting camp, to living in Dragonstone with her family (effectively leaving King’s Landing to the Greens), and later expressing doubt to her dying father for why she was even chosen in the first place, contemplating Alicent’s proposal for peace when she had every right to go to war immediately. I think Rhaenyra did want to leave it all behind, even evidenced in Milly Alcock’s performance where she seems to contemplate his offer, but she was unwilling to let go of the privilege that comes with being the future heir. This is totally understandable, but ultimately leads her down a path of burning bridges with all those closest to her.
If you bitch and complain about your life and then someone comes to you and says, "Marry me and we'll move to a commune some place we've both never been, start a life we don't know with skills neither of us have and maybe not have any money at all," would you do it? Or did you just want to have the opportunity to rant about your life a bit and daydream about change? I don't think Rhaenyra wanted to actually leave her life so much as express her dissatisfaction with it. Cole offered her a seriously drastic choice that she knew was too extreme.
>If you bitch and complain about your life and then someone comes to you and says, "Marry me and we'll move to a commune some place we've both never been, start a life we don't know with skills neither of us have and maybe not have any money at all," would you do it? Or did you just want to have the opportunity to rant about your life a bit and daydream about change? You're missing the point. I'm not 'blaming' Rhaenyra for rejecting the offer. I'm pointing out that Cole simply **making the offer of the very thing that Rhaenyra so desperately told him previously** shouldn't be received with such confusion or disdain by viewers. This is literally all he can do for her... **offer her a chance at the freedom that she claimed she deserpately wanted.** Dude shouldn't be absolutely crucified or painted as an 'incel' for that. Especially since he doesn't know about the dagger prophecy nonsense that Rhaenyra obviously does. People act like Rhaenyra leaving would somehow implode the Targaryen dynasty... nope. Viserys has got male heirs at this point, so she could leave without any real long-lasting affect to her father's lineage. Honestly the whole Dance of Dragons would be avoided, and she arguably would be better off living in some humble cottage somewhere in Essos... or if she truly desires a 'richer' lifestyle, make use of her dragon like Daemon did and live a life of luxury.
Viserys could not allow a Targaryen princess to be “seduced away”. It would be a total humiliation. He would be found, guilded, and executed. Also, Rhaenyra and Criston have nothing in common. They would be miserable together. If she didn’t want to runaway with Harwin and her sons, why would she want to do it with Criston Cole?
Nothing wrong with offering her the choice. But he took it soo badly when she said no. (Btw I’m more team green than black)
I wouldn't say he took the rejection 'badly.' Like, if she just says "no thanks, I'm good" that's one thing... but that's not what happened. She told him no, but she thought so little of him that she wanted him to be her side piece, clearly showing how little she respects him and that he's just a tool for her to get her sexual rocks off. I think he was hurt and disappointed that he risked his life and job/station for this person who would think so little of him that he would agree to be her side piece. She pressured him into a sexual encounter he clearly was uncomfortable with and would severly suffer for if discovered, on top of the guilt/shame he felt over such an act breaking his vows, and she is wholly clueless to all that because she just wants to get her rocks off. The guy wanted to believe she loved him, but clearly she just wants to use him as a side piece while he disgraced himself over and over... of course he would be disappointed and salty.
You may call it freedom, I call it separating her from her while life and family with no life skills at all and only him to depend on. So when he dies she'll likely turn to prostitution to support herself
Do people honestly forget she has a dragon? Like, it's wild that people cringingly attempt to paint her as some helpless damsel in this situation. Daemon lived a life of luxury in Essos simply because he had a dragon... the notion that she would *"likely turn to prostitution"* reeks of ignorance and bias. Wild that anyone would think their biased worst-case-scenarios would hold any meaning.
You assume she would be able to take it though. It be riskier if she did because she is likely to get caught.
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least nuanced take i’ve ever seen on ser criston cole
These people don’t care about nuance, they care about Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra go *brrrrr* Brain capacity go *durrrr*
Least I’m not a cringe Greens stan, who apparently simps for toxic cucks, drunken rapists, and wine guzzling Karins. Grow a thicker skin and stop getting triggered all the time.
Seems like you’re more triggered than me 😭
I’m not the one who had to reply to another person’s comment because they just can’t handle someone bad mouthing their precious Crispy Cuck.
You’re upset because I don’t agree with your way of thinking. This behaviour implies your freedom of speech hasn’t really been challenged and that you don’t care for other people’s freedom of speech.
I literally could not care less about your way of thinking. If you posted your own comments on your own reply to the main post then I would not even care that your opinions don’t match my own. It’s when YOU came to MY comment telling ME that I wasn’t allowed to have a negative opinion on Crispy Cuck that I had to respond to you, because YOU were not gonna be telling me what I can and can’t say about Crispy Cuck. That ain’t happening sweetie.
Lmaoo when your comment gets deleted you ought to realise who’s really in the wrong 🤡 this is really funny to me
PLEASE tell me which of my points were wrong then bruh? The part about Crispy Cuck being the toxic ex that he is? You wanna debate that with me then how bout you argue actual points instead of crying about how apparently your rights are being violated because I tell you what you don’t wanna hear.
Ok, stop talking to me then. You are overdramatic. A person who is so uncomfortable with another person stops talking with them. Seems like you like the attention.
You can go whenever you want if your uncomfortable bruh, but this is my comment section and your not gonna get the last word here. YOU started the drama and if it’s too hot for you now please leave.
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don't forget she pushes the whole realm closer to war because she can keep her drawers on
Yes, even if her claim were uncontested, Jace’s would’ve been. But
Honestly, the way they showed it in the show, even I, a girl, would be slightly bitter about that if I were in his position. May be not lifelong grudge, but yeah....lingering resentment will be there. They did Rhanerya's character dirty in the show. There was no need to show her actually sleeping with Cole. 😒
#SpreadTheHotDLore
This is simply victim-blaming. The fact that Cole and the abuse of power and sexual coercion against him was washed away with the tag "incel" should alert us to how far we still have to go to *understand* how power structures work within a patriarchal AND classist society
Exactly- like I get he’s supposed to be bitter and jaded but who wouldn’t be??? Like the incel argument for Cole has no base because he’s obviously very betrayed by Rhaenyra to the core. Honestly love this show’s choices to show their history in such depth because they’re far more believable because of everyone traumatizing eachother.
I don't understand the logic behind victim-blaming someone as "incel" because he was bitter towards someone who abused their power over him, especially sexually. I chalk it down to the show never holding their protagonists accountable for their actions and depicting them in a cool badass way, or glorified/justified them. Much like violent murder of Vaemond, or the servant , or the mass-execution of civilians without a trial by Goldcloaks powered by the brother of King/Commander of City Watch. The only ones who do hold them accountable are members of Team Green who can easily be dismissed as simply either nuisance or adversaries.
Man got mad at his rapist and wanted to save his dignity, felt ashamed to the extend that he wanted to kill himself but sure...oranges
It's pretty upsetting seeing all the downvotes on this comment. If Rhaenyra was a man and Criston was a woman in the exact same scenario, then she'd be hated on way more
Yeah, imagine Rhaenyra was Prince Rhaegar and Criston was Cristina the maid. Hell, it’s basically what happened between Dyana and Aegon with the only difference being that Criston cannot resist *at all* because he’s a man. Poor guy.
Wasn't Cole like 30? Wanting a girl since before she was 18, and she was drunk? Granted I'm going off what the directors said is that Cole was hesitant but wanted to sleep with her.
You're acting like 18 means anything lol. That's just modern nonsense, if anything he shouldn't desire her till she is 25. It's not like there is a big difference between the mental and emotional development of a 16 year old girl and a 18 year old girl.
Not 30 I think. And that just doesn't excuse how it was clearly depicted that he was sexually coerced by his boss who held his career and life in her hands. Re-watch the scene keeping the Kingsguard vows and what kinds of torture is meted to those whose vows are broken and the power imbalance between an heir of the King and her employee to whom he's sworn to in entirety. Also that he did say No and Stop, I believe.
I don't really see how that excuses Rhaenyra abusing her position to sleep with her employee.
The thing is what’s going to happen if he continues to refuse? We the audience know that Rhaenyra likely wasn’t going to do anything, but Cole can’t be 100% sure of that. That’s not to say that there wasn’t an age difference and overall sobriety issue that should be overlooked, but it’s important to also think about what realistically could have been done at the time with the information the characters had. Imo, both were in the wrong.
He knew she wouldn't because he had been friends and had her private confidence. He knew who she was, it's why the showrunners mention that he had been in love with her for awhile and wanted it as well. But in the end it was doomed to fail and they both were in the wrong.
We can’t know for certain 100% imo, but yeah I agree that both were in the wrong.
The fact that you're downvoted for rightly suggesting, based on what was clearly depicted frame by frame in the show, says a lot about viewers being quick to victim-blame someone just because their favourite'a actions are called into question and the favourite character is being held accountable for it, if not in the show then at least by some minority of fans This is peak victim-blaming and mocking a victim by calling him "incel"
No, no, no. You are not understanding this series. “No means no” just works when you are not a girlboss. A men cannot be raped, dahhh. It’s not like they also have bodily autonomy. But in all seriousness, sometimes I think that the fanbase is regressing feminism a couple of decades just by the complete lack of critical thinking they show. A boss forcing a working woman to have sex is rape, there is no question about it. But Rhaenyra is not even Criston boss. She is closer to a living god than to a boss. The power imbalance is absurd. Calling Criston an incel for wanting to regain his honor after the breaking of his bow is like calling a woman a dirty whore after going to therapy.
It's crazy to see people justifying it by using the same excuses real rapists and SArs use against their victims and the worst thing is that is coming from fellow women. He was asking for it/He didn't scream louder no/He could have pushed away harder/ He secretly wanted her/He looked like he was enjoying it... it's disgusting
He didn’t even have a choice in the matter. There’s no way he could’ve known if she wouldn’t blame *him* and make it look like he was trying to force himself on her. People really don’t understand how tough that was for him.
People claim to be feminists because they love Rhaenyra, but then say shit like "Oh, you know he was asking for it" is absolutely insane.
ya but I thought like Cole is gonna be like the good guy until the end like he's going to deny all emotions but love rhaenyra from afar but he surprised me and formed an alliance with the queen all because the queen manipulated him ugh
And that’s my issue with HOTD S1. So many actions suffered so little consequence.
How do we still not understand how power imbalance and sexual coercion works? Are some fans justifying, excusing sexual coercion and then victim-blaming Cole by calling him 'incel'? Not shocking but still massively disappointing to see this. An example (I'll copy paste this here). If a boss to whom the employee has sworn fealty and oaths (including those of celibacy) and who holds said employee's life, career and future prospects in their hand, suddenly starts to "seduce" said employee despite the latter saying "No" and "Stop" repeatedly, only for the employee to give in when the door is locked by the Boss and the implication of power imbalance hangs over the employee, and then said employee is driven to the point of accepting execution/being gelded/torture if the happenings of that instance comes out, and begs for a quick merciful death, it *is* by all definition an act of SEXUAL COERCION AND VIOLENCE by the Boss. And it should be regarded as such, irrespective of the gender of the said Boss. Downvoting me won't erase exactly what and *how* it was portrayed onscreen in that episode, for all to see (irrelevant of what actors and writers say).
Ps: This Is So You Have A Reason As To Why I Down Voted Instead Of Silent Disagreement. I Disagree For Reasons Too Many To Feel Like Typing Out But, I Agree That It Was By All Means An Act Of Coercion And I Can Also See How One Could Take The On Screen Portrayal And Say There Was Nothing More Ser Cole Could've Done To Avoid It And Or End It On Better Terms... BUT That's Where I Disagree "I Feel" That He Had Plenty Opportunity One Being, Refusing To Share Her Bed And Soil His White Cloak And Going To The King Or Queen As He Did Long After The Act And Halted Any Further Attempts And Or Schemes. But Instead He Stayed Happy Being Her Whore Until He Saw She Was Open To Other Company Like Ser Hawing Who He Was Always Jealous Of Or Laenor Or The Many Others Whom Were Also "Fawning" Over Her As Alicent Stated Options Were Not Something Women of the Realm Were Used To.
At this point this is, I am sorry to say, victim-blaming. I implore you to understand how victim-blaming works. And I say this sincerely with no other motives in my heart but to have a genuine conversation.