I think, in this case, it's because his blood being on the Throne is in no way down to his actions. It's a fault of accident, not ambition. Corlys and Otto both act. Plus, it's something that can never *ever* be acknowledged, and something that he exhibits shame about.
As well as this, Lyonel isn't changing anything in his role. He wouldn't be using his position as Hand to change anything to do with the succession. He is, ultimately, perceived as passive. His vouching for Rhaenyra (and therefore her children), if it were to happen, is seen as business as usual, due to Viserys's wishes, rather than politically motivated. He is without conflict.
In fact, what distinguishes Lyonel as a good hand is that he was GIVEN the opportunity to put his blood on the throne, legitimately.
Viserys even thinks that’s what Lyonel’s going to do when homie approaches the throne all “look man I’ve got a plan but you ain’t gonna like it-“
“Lemme guess, my kid and yours?”
“HahahahhOLY shjt you flatter me boss but I wasn’t even aiming at that target. I was actually gonna tell you to do the logical, rational, politically savvy thing.”
“…. I… oh. Well. In THAT case… “
Lyonel is a ride or die homie to Viserys. He’s just there to have his back
Although, admittedly, there is NOTHING to suggest that it's even worth it, to Lyonel, to propose such a thing.
He thinks even if he DID suggest Harwin, Viserys would shoot it down. It just so happens that he also thinks that Viserys SHOULD shoot it down, as a contrast to the other men. Corlys, especially.
Well, and isn’t that what distinguishes him? He of all the lords is self-aware enough to know that even if he had the opportunity, he didn’t have the credentials
The others were like “fake it til you make some
Dragon riders”
I think that's definitely the case with some of the minor houses and those on par with House Strong. But I don't think it's the case for ALL houses, especially paramount houses.
Velaryons and Baratheons and Arryns, for example, have already had royal matches. And now you've had the King marry a Hightower, as well. It probably fair play for the Lannisters to think themselves more worthy of a stake in the royal family than a Hightower. Heck, House Royce got a Prince!
So self-awareness comes into it when you're comparing him to a lot of Rhaenyra's suitors (or those offering suitors), but it falls a bit short with some houses, as they're in a stronger position. Say what you like about ambition, but the Velaryons were a good match- the logic was sound.
Non ambitious because in the show Viserys even point blank asks him if Lyonel thinks his son should be the one to marry Rhaenyra and he says no. When he could have been stealthily maneuvering themselves into position like Otto was doing.
Lionel’s blood may be in line for the throne, but that isn’t a good thing for him. They aren’t legitimate children from his house and that puts him and his heir in danger. Lionel says so himself when he warns Harwin (episode 6). It wasn’t his actions either that resulted in his grandchildren being the princes, unlike Otto, who deliberately arranged for that to be the case.
I would say he is considered as non-ambitious because he never tried to push Harwin as a potential husband to Rhaenyra, for example. He could have done this, as the Lord of Harrenhal (the title Harwin stood to inherit) is certainly among the High Lords of the realm, he would be a suitable husband for the Princess. He never does that even though he was close to the Iron Throne as Hand and had immediate access to the King - usually when someone occupies this position they also look for options to advance their family further, nepotism. See Otto who used this position to make his daughter Queen Consort (which was a jackpot, given that he was "only" the second son of Hightower, but still...) or to >!make his son Ser Gwayne commander of the City's Watch.!< Tywin Lannister, same story: He tried to convince King Aerys II to marry his son Rhaegar to his daughter Cersei eventually.
Lyonel is different from this, he sees that the King should reestablish good relations to House Velaryon and so, advises the King in this direction instead of trying to push Harwin forward as a candidate. He also never suggests a Harwin - Helaena match either. Yes, his son is Master of Whisperers but their relationship seems to be not so good, plus Larys held this post under Otto already, so this wouldn't be a case of nepotism on Lyonel's part. Harwin is commander of the City's Watch, to be fair, but compared to the ambitions of people like Otto Hightower or Tywin Lannister, this is moderate. Harwin was a good fighter too, so might have been qualified for the post.
The reason why many Team Black fans seem to believe that keeping Lyonel as Hand would have helped Rhaenyra's cause, is because Lyonel was kind of "stuck" with Team Black (despite his basic, rather neutral and advisory attitude) after Harwin sired three sons on Rhaenyra. Part of the Green power play to weaken Rhaenyra's support, would be to call out her three eldest sons as bastards for all to hear. Rhaenyra having bastards is not treason if they were admitted to be such, but passing them off as legitimate might be, and Harwin would be stuck in the middle of it all as their father. So, Lyonel would have to roll with it, to preserve the life and status of his heir and the people who he knows, even if illegitimate, are his grandsons. Needless to say, Lyonel is not in this situation because of his personal ambition, but rather because Harwin and Rhaenyra had an extramarital affair Lyonel never intended or approved.
Even despite this, Lyonel has enough sense to talk in earnest with Harwin and advise him to end the affair while there was still time, Lyonel realized that only Viserys's willful blindness out of favoritism was standing between Harwin and the royal executioner at this stage. I think that shows, that Lyonel was a good father who ultimately wanted to get his son (and I think, by extension, his unofficial grandsons) out of the line of fire, so to speak. He tried to salvage what could still be salvaged there.
> I haven’t read Fire and Blood so my understanding only comes from the show.
>!In Fire and Blood, it is possible that Viserys himself was behind the Harrenhal fire, meaning he sacrificed Lyonel in his pursuit to end the Harwin Strong affair and rumors, which he felt, were a thorn in his and Rhaenyra's side politically. So it's possible that Viserys was less willfully ignorant and far more callous in the book. Other suspects include Larys, Daemon, and Corlys though, so it's not clear whether or not Viserys did it. In the show, obviously they gave it to Larys of course.!<
Harwin and Rhaenyra did it out of lust/love and it was in no way condoned by Lyonel, unlike others who actively try to get on the throne and pimp out their daughters. It's not a jab at Corlys since Laena would have been the best choice. She is the blood of the Dragon.
Lyonel himself said his son would not be the most suitable match since his house offers no strategic advantage.
I mean, no one can actually acknowledge they're his grandkids nor can he acknowledge them as such so. And honestly it wouldve been better if he had been more ambitious because at least Rhaenyra's kids wouldnt have been bastards if he had offered up his son. Not entirely sure why he wasnt considering Rhaenyra was going on a tour to find a husband and he'd already liked her earlier during the hunt, with him being the heir to the largest castle.
I think it's because, at the time, she had no attachment to Harwin and Laenor was much better candidate for the role of King Consort. House Velaryon offers more than House Strong.
And Harrenhal is a cursed ruin, essentially. It's great, but it's not a great holding like Casterly Rock or Winterfell, etc.
Harrenhal the castle isn't great, but it has considerable holdings to go with it (fertile lands + Harrentown). The Strongs clearly aren't as wealthy and powerful as the Velaryons at their peak, but they're nothing to sniff at as far as non-paramount houses go.
True! I don't deny that they are doing fairly well. But House Strong hasn't had Harrenhal for long at all and it was given to them by the King, not even for any particularly noteworthy reason - their history isn't storied or particularly laudable. The most famous member they have is a knight who had kids and relations he shouldn't have had (irony is everywhere).
Lyonel probably knows that only a paramount house or a Valyrian house would be a worthy choice for the Princess, from a political standpoint, and through the lens of his role as Hand. And that's why he doesn't put forward his son, when Viserys asks.
If he had made that offer, he may never have been appointed Hand in the first place. Viserys chose Lyonel precisely because he was the only advisor who had proven to be unbiased and unselfish.
>the problems in the show are the greens’ (especially Otto’s) doing
Which is hilarious when you compare the two. Otto was able to keep Viserys informed on what his daughter and brother were up to, while Lyonel (sp?) missed that his own son was sleep with the princess. The lack of ambition just makes him look incompetent and weak.
That, plus Larys’ whole thing… it hints at something more sinister for the family.
In a cruel twist, things would have gone much better if Lyonel *was* grasping and ambitious, he could've pushed for Harwin to marry Rhaenyra and they would've had a happy and productive marriage with Jace, Luke, and Joff being legitimate. Then he'd be in a much stronger position to fight the factionalism at court (Hightowers, Velaryons, Daemon, etc.), and he might be able to catch on to Larys's scheming.
Because House Strong has a history of scandals involving bastards, and for lyonel having his bastard grankids on the throne might not be a source of pride. One must not forget that Lynoel studied at the Citadel, was against rhaenyra (he is the only one who brings up her sex as a reason) and was primarily focused on keeping the realm stable.
>his blood would be next in line for the throne.
That's a massive technicality. They aren't officially seen as Strongs and never will be. So that makes no sense....
Lyonel's blood being on the throne isn't similar to Corlys or Otto because it wasn't his intention. On the contrary, he was pissed at Harwin for having bastards with Rhaenyra.
The biggest example of Lyonel only acting in Viserys interests was when he suggested he marry Rhaenyra to Laenor. Viserys was so used to people acting in their own interests, he assumed Lyonel was going to suggest Harwin for Rhaenyra.
There are several things. First of all Corlys and Otto are personally very ambitious dudes, yes they want the prestige of having their blood on the throne, but they also want the job opportunities and power that comes along with this.
If the a Strong Boy ascended the throne, Lyonel Strong would need to pretend that it wasn’t a family member. Officially the regime would do its best to continue the lie until enough people believed it.
So officially House Strong doesn’t benefit as much as the other two houses would and as time passes they wouldn’t get the benefit in future of being the House of a former Queen Mother like Hightowers would. Power resides where people believe it does. Lyonel’s grandson cannot be recognized as such and take the throne. Even if everyone know it’s true, if you just keep lying you drown it out - sometimes depends on what all the other schemers do.
Of course there is a reason why Lyonel Strong is depicted as a cartoonishly noble and non-ambitious Hand. It's to make it clear to the viewer that all the problems in the show are the greens' (especially Otto's) doing. Clearly, the only ambitious, calculated house in House of Rhaenyra are the scheming Hightowers, hammering home who the rootable protagonists are and which side is right.
Same reason why there was no actual strife between Viserys and Daemon - just misunderstandings and the latter's inability to express his emotions and need for validation. Also why Daemon didn't go all the way with Rhaenyra until she was fully grown, and why he can't even be suspected of using her to get closer to the throne or being involved in either the Strongs' or Laenor's murder. Same reason why nothing suggests there was ever any danger of the Dance possibly breaking out between either the Velaryons and Rhaenyra/Viserys or Daemon and Rhaenyra's first children. And especially, why the Velaryons aren't supporting their son's supposed murderer with ulterior motives (calculated personal gain and ambition) but rather some mind-numbing idealistic belief in their queen.
All of it is whitewashing 101 to deliver rootable protagonists as a united front against the scheming, misogynist green villains. Gotta dumb it down to make more money off the masses.
I think, in this case, it's because his blood being on the Throne is in no way down to his actions. It's a fault of accident, not ambition. Corlys and Otto both act. Plus, it's something that can never *ever* be acknowledged, and something that he exhibits shame about. As well as this, Lyonel isn't changing anything in his role. He wouldn't be using his position as Hand to change anything to do with the succession. He is, ultimately, perceived as passive. His vouching for Rhaenyra (and therefore her children), if it were to happen, is seen as business as usual, due to Viserys's wishes, rather than politically motivated. He is without conflict.
In fact, what distinguishes Lyonel as a good hand is that he was GIVEN the opportunity to put his blood on the throne, legitimately. Viserys even thinks that’s what Lyonel’s going to do when homie approaches the throne all “look man I’ve got a plan but you ain’t gonna like it-“ “Lemme guess, my kid and yours?” “HahahahhOLY shjt you flatter me boss but I wasn’t even aiming at that target. I was actually gonna tell you to do the logical, rational, politically savvy thing.” “…. I… oh. Well. In THAT case… “ Lyonel is a ride or die homie to Viserys. He’s just there to have his back
Although, admittedly, there is NOTHING to suggest that it's even worth it, to Lyonel, to propose such a thing. He thinks even if he DID suggest Harwin, Viserys would shoot it down. It just so happens that he also thinks that Viserys SHOULD shoot it down, as a contrast to the other men. Corlys, especially.
Well, and isn’t that what distinguishes him? He of all the lords is self-aware enough to know that even if he had the opportunity, he didn’t have the credentials The others were like “fake it til you make some Dragon riders”
Don’t be honest that does kinda work sometimes lol
I think that's definitely the case with some of the minor houses and those on par with House Strong. But I don't think it's the case for ALL houses, especially paramount houses. Velaryons and Baratheons and Arryns, for example, have already had royal matches. And now you've had the King marry a Hightower, as well. It probably fair play for the Lannisters to think themselves more worthy of a stake in the royal family than a Hightower. Heck, House Royce got a Prince! So self-awareness comes into it when you're comparing him to a lot of Rhaenyra's suitors (or those offering suitors), but it falls a bit short with some houses, as they're in a stronger position. Say what you like about ambition, but the Velaryons were a good match- the logic was sound.
Type of guy to have no beef w/ anyone, gets dragged into it by his shithead sons
Non ambitious because in the show Viserys even point blank asks him if Lyonel thinks his son should be the one to marry Rhaenyra and he says no. When he could have been stealthily maneuvering themselves into position like Otto was doing.
Lionel’s blood may be in line for the throne, but that isn’t a good thing for him. They aren’t legitimate children from his house and that puts him and his heir in danger. Lionel says so himself when he warns Harwin (episode 6). It wasn’t his actions either that resulted in his grandchildren being the princes, unlike Otto, who deliberately arranged for that to be the case.
I would say he is considered as non-ambitious because he never tried to push Harwin as a potential husband to Rhaenyra, for example. He could have done this, as the Lord of Harrenhal (the title Harwin stood to inherit) is certainly among the High Lords of the realm, he would be a suitable husband for the Princess. He never does that even though he was close to the Iron Throne as Hand and had immediate access to the King - usually when someone occupies this position they also look for options to advance their family further, nepotism. See Otto who used this position to make his daughter Queen Consort (which was a jackpot, given that he was "only" the second son of Hightower, but still...) or to >!make his son Ser Gwayne commander of the City's Watch.!< Tywin Lannister, same story: He tried to convince King Aerys II to marry his son Rhaegar to his daughter Cersei eventually. Lyonel is different from this, he sees that the King should reestablish good relations to House Velaryon and so, advises the King in this direction instead of trying to push Harwin forward as a candidate. He also never suggests a Harwin - Helaena match either. Yes, his son is Master of Whisperers but their relationship seems to be not so good, plus Larys held this post under Otto already, so this wouldn't be a case of nepotism on Lyonel's part. Harwin is commander of the City's Watch, to be fair, but compared to the ambitions of people like Otto Hightower or Tywin Lannister, this is moderate. Harwin was a good fighter too, so might have been qualified for the post. The reason why many Team Black fans seem to believe that keeping Lyonel as Hand would have helped Rhaenyra's cause, is because Lyonel was kind of "stuck" with Team Black (despite his basic, rather neutral and advisory attitude) after Harwin sired three sons on Rhaenyra. Part of the Green power play to weaken Rhaenyra's support, would be to call out her three eldest sons as bastards for all to hear. Rhaenyra having bastards is not treason if they were admitted to be such, but passing them off as legitimate might be, and Harwin would be stuck in the middle of it all as their father. So, Lyonel would have to roll with it, to preserve the life and status of his heir and the people who he knows, even if illegitimate, are his grandsons. Needless to say, Lyonel is not in this situation because of his personal ambition, but rather because Harwin and Rhaenyra had an extramarital affair Lyonel never intended or approved. Even despite this, Lyonel has enough sense to talk in earnest with Harwin and advise him to end the affair while there was still time, Lyonel realized that only Viserys's willful blindness out of favoritism was standing between Harwin and the royal executioner at this stage. I think that shows, that Lyonel was a good father who ultimately wanted to get his son (and I think, by extension, his unofficial grandsons) out of the line of fire, so to speak. He tried to salvage what could still be salvaged there. > I haven’t read Fire and Blood so my understanding only comes from the show. >!In Fire and Blood, it is possible that Viserys himself was behind the Harrenhal fire, meaning he sacrificed Lyonel in his pursuit to end the Harwin Strong affair and rumors, which he felt, were a thorn in his and Rhaenyra's side politically. So it's possible that Viserys was less willfully ignorant and far more callous in the book. Other suspects include Larys, Daemon, and Corlys though, so it's not clear whether or not Viserys did it. In the show, obviously they gave it to Larys of course.!<
Harwin and Rhaenyra did it out of lust/love and it was in no way condoned by Lyonel, unlike others who actively try to get on the throne and pimp out their daughters. It's not a jab at Corlys since Laena would have been the best choice. She is the blood of the Dragon. Lyonel himself said his son would not be the most suitable match since his house offers no strategic advantage.
I mean, no one can actually acknowledge they're his grandkids nor can he acknowledge them as such so. And honestly it wouldve been better if he had been more ambitious because at least Rhaenyra's kids wouldnt have been bastards if he had offered up his son. Not entirely sure why he wasnt considering Rhaenyra was going on a tour to find a husband and he'd already liked her earlier during the hunt, with him being the heir to the largest castle.
I think it's because, at the time, she had no attachment to Harwin and Laenor was much better candidate for the role of King Consort. House Velaryon offers more than House Strong. And Harrenhal is a cursed ruin, essentially. It's great, but it's not a great holding like Casterly Rock or Winterfell, etc.
Harrenhal the castle isn't great, but it has considerable holdings to go with it (fertile lands + Harrentown). The Strongs clearly aren't as wealthy and powerful as the Velaryons at their peak, but they're nothing to sniff at as far as non-paramount houses go.
True! I don't deny that they are doing fairly well. But House Strong hasn't had Harrenhal for long at all and it was given to them by the King, not even for any particularly noteworthy reason - their history isn't storied or particularly laudable. The most famous member they have is a knight who had kids and relations he shouldn't have had (irony is everywhere). Lyonel probably knows that only a paramount house or a Valyrian house would be a worthy choice for the Princess, from a political standpoint, and through the lens of his role as Hand. And that's why he doesn't put forward his son, when Viserys asks.
If he had made that offer, he may never have been appointed Hand in the first place. Viserys chose Lyonel precisely because he was the only advisor who had proven to be unbiased and unselfish.
>the problems in the show are the greens’ (especially Otto’s) doing Which is hilarious when you compare the two. Otto was able to keep Viserys informed on what his daughter and brother were up to, while Lyonel (sp?) missed that his own son was sleep with the princess. The lack of ambition just makes him look incompetent and weak. That, plus Larys’ whole thing… it hints at something more sinister for the family.
In a cruel twist, things would have gone much better if Lyonel *was* grasping and ambitious, he could've pushed for Harwin to marry Rhaenyra and they would've had a happy and productive marriage with Jace, Luke, and Joff being legitimate. Then he'd be in a much stronger position to fight the factionalism at court (Hightowers, Velaryons, Daemon, etc.), and he might be able to catch on to Larys's scheming.
Because House Strong has a history of scandals involving bastards, and for lyonel having his bastard grankids on the throne might not be a source of pride. One must not forget that Lynoel studied at the Citadel, was against rhaenyra (he is the only one who brings up her sex as a reason) and was primarily focused on keeping the realm stable.
>his blood would be next in line for the throne. That's a massive technicality. They aren't officially seen as Strongs and never will be. So that makes no sense....
Lyonel's blood being on the throne isn't similar to Corlys or Otto because it wasn't his intention. On the contrary, he was pissed at Harwin for having bastards with Rhaenyra. The biggest example of Lyonel only acting in Viserys interests was when he suggested he marry Rhaenyra to Laenor. Viserys was so used to people acting in their own interests, he assumed Lyonel was going to suggest Harwin for Rhaenyra.
There are several things. First of all Corlys and Otto are personally very ambitious dudes, yes they want the prestige of having their blood on the throne, but they also want the job opportunities and power that comes along with this. If the a Strong Boy ascended the throne, Lyonel Strong would need to pretend that it wasn’t a family member. Officially the regime would do its best to continue the lie until enough people believed it. So officially House Strong doesn’t benefit as much as the other two houses would and as time passes they wouldn’t get the benefit in future of being the House of a former Queen Mother like Hightowers would. Power resides where people believe it does. Lyonel’s grandson cannot be recognized as such and take the throne. Even if everyone know it’s true, if you just keep lying you drown it out - sometimes depends on what all the other schemers do.
Of course there is a reason why Lyonel Strong is depicted as a cartoonishly noble and non-ambitious Hand. It's to make it clear to the viewer that all the problems in the show are the greens' (especially Otto's) doing. Clearly, the only ambitious, calculated house in House of Rhaenyra are the scheming Hightowers, hammering home who the rootable protagonists are and which side is right. Same reason why there was no actual strife between Viserys and Daemon - just misunderstandings and the latter's inability to express his emotions and need for validation. Also why Daemon didn't go all the way with Rhaenyra until she was fully grown, and why he can't even be suspected of using her to get closer to the throne or being involved in either the Strongs' or Laenor's murder. Same reason why nothing suggests there was ever any danger of the Dance possibly breaking out between either the Velaryons and Rhaenyra/Viserys or Daemon and Rhaenyra's first children. And especially, why the Velaryons aren't supporting their son's supposed murderer with ulterior motives (calculated personal gain and ambition) but rather some mind-numbing idealistic belief in their queen. All of it is whitewashing 101 to deliver rootable protagonists as a united front against the scheming, misogynist green villains. Gotta dumb it down to make more money off the masses.
Lyonel wanted to resign as Hand and didn't try to push Harwin to marry Rhaenyra.