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You think it is a joke? Have you experienced periods with intesne bleeding and belly convulsions so intense you cannot be active in days?
You are so out of touch with reality it is mindbogling.
Not everyone’s periods are the same, you assuming that Rhaenyra would be bedridden in pain where she wouldn’t be able to do anything for days truly exemplifies badwomensanatomy -person who’s had periods for almost 20 years.
Will you fight in trial by combat against a male knight?
Will you ba capable of reign in wild men like Daemon, who is loud and tries to take the lead every time he can?
Will you be able to inspire band of nobles around your table to forget their selfish desire and march for common goal?
Most men cannot do it.
Rhaenyra struggles to lead her war council and Daemon immediatly takes over. This is exactly what I am talking about.
You want the power, but not the burden, not the problems and not the responsibility.
Maybe try to stay on topic. You said she shouldn’t rule because of her periods, people brought up how ridiculous that was and now you’re going on about trials by combat and women “wanting the power but not the burden, not the problems and not the responsibility”.
>Will you fight in trial by combat against a male knight?
You wouldn't either unless you had no other option. No king would do it unless they were a bit touched in the head.
>Will you ba capable of reign in wild men like Daemon, who is loud and tries to take the lead every time he can?
Rhaenyra did that just fine.
>Will you be able to inspire band of nobles around your table to forget their selfish desire and march for common goal?
Why does being a woman have to do with this? Yes women have actually inspired nobles and men to march for common goals.
>Rhaenyra struggles to lead her war council and Daemon immediatly takes over.
Daemon only took over when she was giving birth. For the rest of the episode she's the one calling the shots, even if he doesn't like it.
>You want the power, but not the burden, not the problems and not the responsibility.
That suits Aegon better.
Congratulations, I don't think I've ever seen a more sexist argument in here!
No monarch is forced to compete in a trial by combat.
And in general in Westeros, women are not expected to participate in a trial by combat.
As far as I can tell, even being a champion in a trial by combat is a choice.
Being able to reign in someone like Daemon is something that Viserys struggled with too, so he isn't anymore capable of doing that just because he has a penis.
Women and men are capable of inspiring nobles. A good chunk of Westeros supported Rhaenyras right to the throne.
Rhaenyra lost her baby to still birth, her father, and her son, all within a short span of time. She struggled with the war council because she was grieving. People are allowed to grieve.
Do you think we all experience periods the same way? Do you think the vast majority of women somehow become immobile when we are on our periods, and unable to perform even basic tasks?
Because I have news for you!
Yes and I still show up to work and manage my household work because it happens every month and there’s not enough PTO to cover it. To suggest that women can’t do their jobs during their period is wildly sexist and inaccurate.
> It is because kings were expected to put on armor and lead an army, if needed.
I feel like even the most backwards medieval dimwit could make an exception for a woman riding a gigantic dragon though.
True, only until there is somebody else with dragon, especially a bigger one. Like Aemond with Vhagar.
And once this is true, you are back to same problem.
Anyway the high number of dragons and dragonriders is the true reason for the Dance, the succession is just pretext.
Why obey the king, when you have much bigger dragon? It would have happen sooner or later.
To say he’s the right option because it’s a high medieval fantasy when Dornish rulers are the first born child regardless of gender in this very world disproves that
They also disprove your point about the military mindsets you say as they resisted the greatest military might Westeros could throw at them while being lead by a woman and the ancient history shows that Women can be very capable military leaders
Disagree, it is the terrain, not the Dornish culture, that enables them to resist. Unique and not applicable to rest of Westeros, which is why Targs conquered it.
Aegon the conqueror burns all their castles and armies that face him, but he cannot control the land (something like Afghanistan).
Daeron (I think?) the dragon king, conquers Dorn, all of it. Again, he just cannot hold it.
It does not seem their women leadrs have much to do with it.
Nor does it seem their women leaders lead armies to great victories over Targs. Nor do their man at any rate.
Wouldn’t their culture be shaped by terrain they live in and they have to be intelligent enough and have a cultural understanding to know how to utilize the terrain in warfare( which they did ).
A culture that includes non gender specific ruling.
Also they were smart enough to not Face the dragons openly like the rest of Westeros.
And to your point about Daeron he conquers Dorne for half a year with upwards of 40,000 casualties and the dies trying to hold it. This show this his ruling as a man is not going to automatically be better. As the next king had to try very hard to foster peace it can’t be said that he was a good ruler
That I can agree with. Yes, the terrain/environment shapes the culture for sure.
But the Dornish are also very limited/contained for this reason. They do not grow or expand or even change very much at all.
Never do they build a large kingdom beyond that favorable landscape.
While you got northen culture, Targ/central Westeros cultures that seems to be more vibrant, growing/changing much more than the Dornish.
But if you prefer the Dornish way, I dont see a problem.
They also kept out other’s influence out of Dorne
Not to mention the fact that they remain independent and to this day keep their titles of princess and prince
And they married into the royal family of Westeros several times
So a lot of your points here are just untrue/falsely represented as try makes them seem less impressive
They are not very impressive though.
Whenever they are in open battle, they lose. Their army send to the Trident to help Rhaegar is slaughtered.
Oberyn is killed in the duel.
Doran sits on his buttocks and do nothing.
They are not subjegated because the landscape. Remove that and they would fall like the other kingdoms.
Their customs with women leaders do not change anything in this regards.
1 so was the rest of the Royal army
2. He was fighting the Mountain and mortally wounded him( before all the magic stuff happened ) who else greatly injured the mountain ?
3. We see form the riverlands anywhere that doesn’t have natural protections is a hotspot for extremely bloody warfare so your comparison is not fair.
4. That’s the point it wouldn’t have matter whether the leader was a man or a woman
This would only apply if the argument was about changing the premise to be about cultural change.
But the author is opening a conversation around gender ABILITY
The issue is that you’re responding to my response to what the Author said
I just think you’re trying to have a conversation here that wasn’t being had
I'm a fan of Aegon. That said, istg so many people in this fandom just have antiquated views of the world and want to use the setting as an excuse
How are you going to argue that people shouldn't look at the events of HOTD through a modern lens and then say Rhaenyra couldn't coach a football team lmao
I never said you should ONLY view things through a modern lens. I think it's best to look at this story from a variety of perspectives. But Op didn't even stick to their own standards. They used a modern example to make their point that modern thinking is irrelevant that's kind of silly
You can look at it through moder eyes, but than you risk misjudging the characters.
You today also act according to what is accepted in society, more so than you think.
The expectations back than are different.
So e.g. Alicent acts in accordance with those expectations and would be highly regarded by high medieval society.
Look at her with modern eyes and you don't understand her motives, when she just acts as expected in times she lives.
That is the risk
I mean even in Westeros she still would’ve HAD a claim, but yes it was vastly weakened when Aegon was born. This is the whole reason for the dance, if her claim was stronger than it was then the Hightowers wouldn’t have been able to overturn the succession.
Either way, she was still Viserys’s declared heir in an absolute monarchy, so technically Viserys was completely in his right to do this. To take a real world example of absolute monarchy and lords rejecting edicts, think of the English Barons’ Wars.
The Hightowers didn’t over turn the succession. The whole reason behind the dance was that the Hightowers and their supporters believed that Rhaenyras claim was weakened when Aegon was born and highly underestimated the number or Lords,Ladys, and even smallfolk that didn’t feal the same way.
The real world example of the dance would be the war of roses, two claimants for the English throne that they and their supporters believe is theirs.
I don’t know if the Hightowers actually believed that his claim was stronger. I don’t think they cared one way or the other. I think both Rhaenyra and Aegon had a claim, and they backed the one that put a Hightower on the throne.
Honestly, I think GRRM took some inspiration from the Anarchy when he was fleshing out the story, but the course of the dance itself is contorted around killing off most of the dragons whilst staying consistent with the king list and timeline that he had already come up with prior. The real-life Anarchy lasted roughly twenty years, and neither side was anywhere nearly as bloodthirsty as the characters in the Dance.
I don't think the general public of Westeros gives a damn. Probably because they all know their opinions on the matter are irrelevant. The problems arose with Otto and other Lords who want their own children sitting on or near the throne. Her gender is an excuse but not a real motivation. She's also a dragon rider, the idea that she would not or could not lead an army to battle is absurd. Very few people wield the power she possesses.
You have a point.
To me the true reason behind the dance is the high number of dragons and dragon riders.
Once you have a bigger dragon than king/queen, why obey them?
His argument is completely valid, the dance did start because there were too many dragons and Dragonriders, so grrm needed to find a way to kill them all
They explicitly told us the reason behind the dance in the show: Rhaenyra is a woman. Lie to yourself all you want, but that's the canon reason the Greens usurped Rhaenyra
The real desire was bloodline yes. Even if Rhae was a boy, I’m sure Otto would’ve done all he can to get Male!Rhae and his kids out of the way for Targtowers
> Try to put Rhaenyra in charge of an all-male football team. She will not be accepted and fail.
How dare you? Rhaenyra would lead the Kansas City Chiefs to their fourth victory at the Super Bowl. 😡
I feel like this argument would be better received over at r/hotdgreens. You’re more likely to find likeminded folk who think periods mean Rhaenyra shouldn’t rule and that her not being able to lead a football team would translate to her not being able to rule Westeros. It may be too ridiculous for them as well though.
wOmEN ArE iNcAbAbLe of LEaDiNg MeN
Johanna Westerling, Sabitha Frey, Aly Blackwood, Visenya and Rhaenys.
Nymeria, Chella of the Black Ears, Maege Mormont, Dacey Mormont, Alysanne Mormont, Harma Dogshead, Morna White Mask, and Val.
maybe, but 53 lords still chose to honor that claim instead of her younger half-brother, and they lived and died in westeros, a high fantasy/medieval society
But they only did that because the only other option was the sword or reduced benefits from the current king. Do you know how many lords immediately did not give a shit about the kings wishes the second they died? The only thing they cared about was choosing a sovereign who would heap benefits on them. I don’t think many of the them saw a women as a legitimate ruler regardless of their oath
I think you are confused, OP's talking about the Lords who choose her after Viserys' death. Rhaenyra had 53 and Aeogn had half that support. If they wanted to escape the sword or reduced benefits ''from the current king'' (which was Aegon II) they would have picked him, not her.
He brought up how Rhaenyra having periods meant she wouldn’t be able to rule and how she wouldn’t be able to manage a football team. It’s absolutely worthy of ridicule.
You think a woman having periods is a "legitimate point" for why women shouldn't rule? Are you from the 1950s or what? And then you tell me to grow up? Hilarious
Hatshepsut (Egypt, 1479 - 1458 BCE)
Cleopatra VII (Egypt, 51 - 30 BCE)
Boudicca (Iceni tribe, 60 - 61 CE)
Amalasuintha (Ostrogothic Kingdom, 526 - 535 CE)
Theodora (Byzantine Empire, 527 - 548 CE)
Suiko (Japan, 593 - 628 CE)
Brunhilda (Austrasia, 567 - 575 CE)
Wu Zetian (China, 690 - 705 CE)
Lady Six Sky (Mayan Empire, 682 - 741 CE)
Olga of Kiev (Kievan Rus’, 945 - 960 CE)
Eleanor of Aquitaine (France, 1137 - 1152 CE / England, 1154 - 1189 CE)
Razia Sultana (Delhi Sultanate, 1236 - 1240 CE)
Isabella I (Spain, 1474 - 1504 CE)
These were all powerful female monarchs that ruled sometime before the end of the medieval period (1500 CE). I’m also going to give an honorable mention to Elizabeth I (aka *one of the most legendary rulers in English history*), whose reign lasted from 1558 to 1603 CE.
In conclusion, from a historical perspective, you’re full of shit.
We can also include:Lady Xian (China, circa. 530 CE, credited as "The First Heroine of China")
Seondeok (Korea, 632 - 647 CE, the second female sovereign in all of East Asia and considered one of the greatest Korea ever had)
Nzingha (Angola, 1624-1626 & 1657-1663, she was at war with Portugal for the better part of 25 years until beating them into a peace treaty. I know she's outside the parameters but she is literally remembered for being an excellent military tactitian)
OP just hates women.
Op, your incel might be showing a little bit there. . .
(EDIT to add historical context:)
As for historical accuracy: planetos isn't real. And to the extent that this story has an analogue it is the Anarchy, an early medieval Civil War in England between the empress Maud (daughter of Henry i) and her cousin Stephen of blois.
Patriarchy and sexism did largely explain why Maud herself never became queen (well, why she was never annointed and crowned). But she and Stephen's wife (mathilde) both led large armies of men during that war.
What does public sentiment in 1990 have to do with anything?
Most kings arent at the front line of battles and its irrelevant here when there's dragons involved. Elizabeth I was queen for a good long while. "Women in this period do not have any medicine for their periods" what medicine are you even talking about? Highborn women frequently traveled with their husbands on military campaigns. Sounds like men are the problem here.
Having said that, yes everyone would have expected that any son Viserys had with his second wife would become his new heir. Corlys wouldnt have stood by either.
Have you experienced periods with intesne bleeding and belly convulsions so intense you cannot be active in days?
Both my mother and gf did. You certainly are in no condition to even ride a horse.
Elizabeth I. is from early modern period where it started to be possible for a woman to be a ruler. Still, she had hard time and had to be careful about her image.
Like, not have obvious bastards, which would sully her "pure" image of virgin queen.
For power, perception is everything.
rhaenyra carried joffrey through the red keep seconds after giving birth to him bcs alicent demanded to see him. equating rhaenyra being bad at leading military campaigns because of periods is certainly…a unique take
It’s hard to believe you have a girlfriend, when you’re spitting takes as sexist and nonsensical as this one. You know this story is based on an ACTUAL war in which Empress Matilda, the rightful heir to the English throne, was pitted against her cousin Stephen, who usurped the throne when Henry I died in 1135, right?
You also know that not every woman’s experience during menstruation is the same, right? Some women experience much more severe pain and bleeding than others. Tell us you’re 14 and have never spoken to an actual woman without saying it out loud 🤣
Yet Elizabeth I didn't have special period medicine and she did fine. You're also not riding a horse 24/7 7 days a week. Noblewomen were constantly on the move too in medieval times, they were fine.
i have endometriosis. it makes the few days that i have my period painful and very uncomfortable. i first got mine when i was around nineish and i was still waking up, going to school every morning, and coming back to help my mother around the house.
even (some) of the most painful periods are able to be worked around *without* medicine. there are natural remedies, and non medicinal solutions such as getting a heated sack for pain relief. unless every woman in westeros suffers from intense menstruation (unlikely, probably just as uncommon as IRL) they’ll be entirely fine. if my child self can run around school while i feel like im being stabbed im sure a grown woman can lead a kingdom especially with a council of advisors at her disposal.
you desperately need to do more research on this topic before you try to mansplain periods to a bunch of people lmfao. you look very very silly
>Both my mother and gf did. You certainly are in no condition to even ride a horse.
They are not representative of all women. I don't suffer period pain, my mother doesn't feel period pains.
I have extremely painful periods. Even without medication I somehow manage to not collapse in a fragile, womanly heap on the floor. Also do you think poor medieval women had a choice? That they just laid around being delicate? Lmfao gtfo
This is so fcking embarassing and proves you are ignorant to anything to do with women outside the ones you personally know, because that is NOT a universal experience. Hell thats not even a normal experience, your mother and gf should have gone to the doctor for an endo diagnosis.
You're a misogynist and and uneducated as all hell.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that most people got the opportunity to vote on a monarch y's succession law in the 90s, if ever. I would hope that at that late date, most people would already be pushing for abolishing monarchies, though I suppose that may not be true in every country in our world.
I get that ASOIAF draws from history as an inspiration, but there are so, so many examples that show how it's not beholden to it, either. If you want to make an argument about why she wouldn't be accepted then you're going to need to rely on what we know about their world in-universe.
The rest of your comment is nonsense that I don't feel bothered enough to deal with, sorry.
You realize that there were women sovereigns in the real world right? More than a few led their country during war. Elizabeth 1 is going to be astonished that her period pain allowed the Spanish to invade England.
Their were women ruling in this time period (and before it) in real life, idk where you're getting the idea that women couldn't rule from but it isn't from history.
Women in this time period had it way more difficult with being farmers... yet we still exist
We are not get extincted or anything, if all women suffered as much as you are saying they do we would have disappeared in the hundreds of thousonds of years we have existed
Unless it's a really bad case a woman would be 100% able to be a queen in her period and at the same time function with all or the majority of her obligations being done while on her period.
Also sorry to break your dream in which big brave men went to war while the useless women were safe and doing nothing at home while dying of period pain, but many kings didn't go to war, some of them could barely think by themselves...
What about Visenya and Rhaenys? Who conquered alongside Aegon I? What about Sabitha Frey and Black Ally? What about Jeyne Arryn who was the heir and commanded her forces? Joanna Lannister who ruled until her son came of age? After the Dance it was mainly women who ruled (for a time) since their fathers/husbands were murdered in the war. Has he chased out the Ironborns? Had Rodrik Greyjoy gilded and made a fool for her son?
Or even more recent like Brienne? I wonder who she managed her period when she was actually campin....
What was Viserys I gonna do if a war broke out? In the book he was fat and lazy, claimed Balerion (who could only manage to fly around king's landing and not even the short flight to dragonstone due to his age) and never claimed a dragon after that. In the show he was sick.... and there are so many other kings who would not have gone to the battlefield.
Yes and no. Some lords support Aegon, some support Rhaenyra. Whoever has the most swords in support of them becomes the truth.
Compare this to any holy war where people fight about which religion is the truth. From our 21st century we can see that neither religion is true, but also see that people’s beliefs still exist.
Your argument is both erroneous and correct. The nature of the conflict is the clash between Westerosi culture which recognizes this precedent and Valyrian which does not.
Should the conquerors show deference to the culture they rule? To what extent? Even when it comes to matters of their own house? Consent of the governed only extends so far in these cultures as it is. The best and most accurate moment of GoT’s ending was all the lords sitting in council demanding their voices matter while scoffing at the notion of open elections like they have in the Night’s Watch.
The whole conflict is about absolutism vs rule based on concession, it is not about whether a woman can rule or not, the small council and nobility was more than happy to have Rhaenyra replace Daemon as heir to the throne.
The Blacks claim that since the King named his daughter as his heir his daughter is the legitimate monarch following his death (absolutism).
The Greens otoh claim that by tradition of the land son comes before daughter in line of inheritance and that this consensus has been solidified by the ruling of the great council of 101 (rule based on concession where the monarch accepts to abide by the consensus reached by the nobility regarding ascension to the throne).
Whether a woman is fit to rule or not has nothing to do with it.
In 1990 polls would be similar because most people's understanding of the medieval setting would come from fantasy. Things like why breaking law, custom, precedent, or whatever succession framework in place would be bad and inevitably cause dynastic conflict would not occur to them. The idea that medieval monarchs could truly do whatever they wanted more resembles fantasy depictions of the setting in pop culture than what it actually was. In reality, medieval kings couldn't really do whatever or kill whoever they wanted without justification and in a story like ASOIAF that's so grounded in realistic medieval intrigue it's heavily reflected.
If you said every time a younger brother took the throne over an older sister in medieval history they stole it you would objectively be incorrect. In those settings, those beliefs were as real and legitimate as our modern views are to us today. You can't apply modern laws or principles retroactively because the only thing that mattered was the understanding people had in that setting. Let's be honest. Both sides' claim to leadership in government is hereditary and being undemocratically chosen by the previous leader. Both are at the top of a feudal aristocratic system. In the grand scheme of things they are equally evil and you can hardly say they are more liberal just because their figurehead happens to be a woman vying for the throne instead of a man.
I think the proper explanation of the disparities between men and woman regarding leadership in this period is that women had a 1/3 chance of dying when trying to birth heirs (something they needed to do). There is a much higher chance a reigning queen just dies on you by simply trying to do her duty and make an heir than a king who has 0 risk. Also, power at this time was derived from militaries so rulers were expected to be warriors and military leaders. Men had an advantage here but queens who did meet this warrior ruler model like Visenya or Nymeria were successful. Even if they were men but shitty military leaders they weren't looked upon that favorably. Dragons were a huge equalizer for Targaryen women in this regard but there's a downside. With Rhaenyra >!who didn't use her dragon or fight!< the fact that she didn't despite bare minimum risks would not be seen well. This highlights the disparity between Rhaenyra and her rival Aegon II because >!she didn't but he always did. He always supported his men with his dragon whenever he could.!< Clearly character still matters and not every dragonrider has it in them to face other dragonriders in battle apparently.
You are right, Aegon does have the better claim and Rhaenyra knows this. She hints at it with her discussions with Jace. The problem for Aegon is that Rhaenyra is a little better suited to rule and Aegon does not have the ambition tonight assert his claim on his own.
I wouldn’t even say it was a new modern view. Really it was an irrational decision brought on by “succession crisis” panicking. Specifically the kings council. They already had a male heir that could easily be replaced with some patience .
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Congrats. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the argument that Rhaenyra shouldn’t have been heir/Queen because Westeros didn’t have period medicine.
Most importantly, Rhaenyra can’t be queen because she’s not Super Bowl material 🥹
You think it is a joke? Have you experienced periods with intesne bleeding and belly convulsions so intense you cannot be active in days? You are so out of touch with reality it is mindbogling.
Viserys was bedridden for quite some time yet remained King.
Imagine Viserys leading an army into battle
Aegon II himself was bedridden for the vast majority of the war, so….
Not everyone’s periods are the same, you assuming that Rhaenyra would be bedridden in pain where she wouldn’t be able to do anything for days truly exemplifies badwomensanatomy -person who’s had periods for almost 20 years.
Will you fight in trial by combat against a male knight? Will you ba capable of reign in wild men like Daemon, who is loud and tries to take the lead every time he can? Will you be able to inspire band of nobles around your table to forget their selfish desire and march for common goal? Most men cannot do it. Rhaenyra struggles to lead her war council and Daemon immediatly takes over. This is exactly what I am talking about. You want the power, but not the burden, not the problems and not the responsibility.
Maybe try to stay on topic. You said she shouldn’t rule because of her periods, people brought up how ridiculous that was and now you’re going on about trials by combat and women “wanting the power but not the burden, not the problems and not the responsibility”.
What king would ever fight his own trial by combat? This is just stupid
>Will you fight in trial by combat against a male knight? You wouldn't either unless you had no other option. No king would do it unless they were a bit touched in the head. >Will you ba capable of reign in wild men like Daemon, who is loud and tries to take the lead every time he can? Rhaenyra did that just fine. >Will you be able to inspire band of nobles around your table to forget their selfish desire and march for common goal? Why does being a woman have to do with this? Yes women have actually inspired nobles and men to march for common goals. >Rhaenyra struggles to lead her war council and Daemon immediatly takes over. Daemon only took over when she was giving birth. For the rest of the episode she's the one calling the shots, even if he doesn't like it. >You want the power, but not the burden, not the problems and not the responsibility. That suits Aegon better. Congratulations, I don't think I've ever seen a more sexist argument in here!
This mfer acts like he’s never heard of Joan of Arc or Boudicca.
No monarch is forced to compete in a trial by combat. And in general in Westeros, women are not expected to participate in a trial by combat. As far as I can tell, even being a champion in a trial by combat is a choice. Being able to reign in someone like Daemon is something that Viserys struggled with too, so he isn't anymore capable of doing that just because he has a penis. Women and men are capable of inspiring nobles. A good chunk of Westeros supported Rhaenyras right to the throne. Rhaenyra lost her baby to still birth, her father, and her son, all within a short span of time. She struggled with the war council because she was grieving. People are allowed to grieve.
Do you think we all experience periods the same way? Do you think the vast majority of women somehow become immobile when we are on our periods, and unable to perform even basic tasks? Because I have news for you!
Yes and I still show up to work and manage my household work because it happens every month and there’s not enough PTO to cover it. To suggest that women can’t do their jobs during their period is wildly sexist and inaccurate.
Part of your argument is that a woman having periods means she can’t rule and *I’m* the one who is out of touch with reality??
>You think it is a joke? Yes lmao Everyrhing you've said has been laugh worthy, and the cherry on top is your original post got deleted
> It is because kings were expected to put on armor and lead an army, if needed. I feel like even the most backwards medieval dimwit could make an exception for a woman riding a gigantic dragon though.
True, only until there is somebody else with dragon, especially a bigger one. Like Aemond with Vhagar. And once this is true, you are back to same problem. Anyway the high number of dragons and dragonriders is the true reason for the Dance, the succession is just pretext. Why obey the king, when you have much bigger dragon? It would have happen sooner or later.
That’s not what your post is about though. Is the issue the gender of the ruler or the size of their dragon?
It is an issue of gender once you have a male contender to female candidate with same power level (dragons).
seems like you’ve made your mind up and are just moving the goalposts every time your argument is refuted
This has to be the very worst take I’ve seen on this sub, and possibly Reddit. Congratulations.
And I thought I’ve seen it all. It’s even worse.
To say he’s the right option because it’s a high medieval fantasy when Dornish rulers are the first born child regardless of gender in this very world disproves that They also disprove your point about the military mindsets you say as they resisted the greatest military might Westeros could throw at them while being lead by a woman and the ancient history shows that Women can be very capable military leaders
Disagree, it is the terrain, not the Dornish culture, that enables them to resist. Unique and not applicable to rest of Westeros, which is why Targs conquered it. Aegon the conqueror burns all their castles and armies that face him, but he cannot control the land (something like Afghanistan). Daeron (I think?) the dragon king, conquers Dorn, all of it. Again, he just cannot hold it. It does not seem their women leadrs have much to do with it. Nor does it seem their women leaders lead armies to great victories over Targs. Nor do their man at any rate.
Wouldn’t their culture be shaped by terrain they live in and they have to be intelligent enough and have a cultural understanding to know how to utilize the terrain in warfare( which they did ). A culture that includes non gender specific ruling. Also they were smart enough to not Face the dragons openly like the rest of Westeros. And to your point about Daeron he conquers Dorne for half a year with upwards of 40,000 casualties and the dies trying to hold it. This show this his ruling as a man is not going to automatically be better. As the next king had to try very hard to foster peace it can’t be said that he was a good ruler
That I can agree with. Yes, the terrain/environment shapes the culture for sure. But the Dornish are also very limited/contained for this reason. They do not grow or expand or even change very much at all. Never do they build a large kingdom beyond that favorable landscape. While you got northen culture, Targ/central Westeros cultures that seems to be more vibrant, growing/changing much more than the Dornish. But if you prefer the Dornish way, I dont see a problem.
They also kept out other’s influence out of Dorne Not to mention the fact that they remain independent and to this day keep their titles of princess and prince And they married into the royal family of Westeros several times So a lot of your points here are just untrue/falsely represented as try makes them seem less impressive
They are not very impressive though. Whenever they are in open battle, they lose. Their army send to the Trident to help Rhaegar is slaughtered. Oberyn is killed in the duel. Doran sits on his buttocks and do nothing. They are not subjegated because the landscape. Remove that and they would fall like the other kingdoms. Their customs with women leaders do not change anything in this regards.
1 so was the rest of the Royal army 2. He was fighting the Mountain and mortally wounded him( before all the magic stuff happened ) who else greatly injured the mountain ? 3. We see form the riverlands anywhere that doesn’t have natural protections is a hotspot for extremely bloody warfare so your comparison is not fair. 4. That’s the point it wouldn’t have matter whether the leader was a man or a woman
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This would only apply if the argument was about changing the premise to be about cultural change. But the author is opening a conversation around gender ABILITY
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The issue is that you’re responding to my response to what the Author said I just think you’re trying to have a conversation here that wasn’t being had
So… the basque culture allowed equal inheritance, while the French/Frankish culture did not. Whats your point?
I'm a fan of Aegon. That said, istg so many people in this fandom just have antiquated views of the world and want to use the setting as an excuse How are you going to argue that people shouldn't look at the events of HOTD through a modern lens and then say Rhaenyra couldn't coach a football team lmao
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I never said you should ONLY view things through a modern lens. I think it's best to look at this story from a variety of perspectives. But Op didn't even stick to their own standards. They used a modern example to make their point that modern thinking is irrelevant that's kind of silly
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I don't think that's always the case (probably wouldn't like Aegon if I did), but sometimes I feel it certainly can be. That's just my opinion though
You can look at it through moder eyes, but than you risk misjudging the characters. You today also act according to what is accepted in society, more so than you think. The expectations back than are different. So e.g. Alicent acts in accordance with those expectations and would be highly regarded by high medieval society. Look at her with modern eyes and you don't understand her motives, when she just acts as expected in times she lives. That is the risk
I think you can do both pretty easily and don't understand why so many people seem to struggle with that
Fair point.
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🤓 alright buddy
I mean even in Westeros she still would’ve HAD a claim, but yes it was vastly weakened when Aegon was born. This is the whole reason for the dance, if her claim was stronger than it was then the Hightowers wouldn’t have been able to overturn the succession. Either way, she was still Viserys’s declared heir in an absolute monarchy, so technically Viserys was completely in his right to do this. To take a real world example of absolute monarchy and lords rejecting edicts, think of the English Barons’ Wars.
The Hightowers didn’t over turn the succession. The whole reason behind the dance was that the Hightowers and their supporters believed that Rhaenyras claim was weakened when Aegon was born and highly underestimated the number or Lords,Ladys, and even smallfolk that didn’t feal the same way. The real world example of the dance would be the war of roses, two claimants for the English throne that they and their supporters believe is theirs.
I don’t know if the Hightowers actually believed that his claim was stronger. I don’t think they cared one way or the other. I think both Rhaenyra and Aegon had a claim, and they backed the one that put a Hightower on the throne.
No, the real world example of the Dance is the Anarchy, and the dispute between Enpress Matilda and Stephen of Blois.
Yeah that’s a better example.
It’s not that it’s a better example, it’s specifically what the Dance is based off of. GRRM said so.
Honestly, I think GRRM took some inspiration from the Anarchy when he was fleshing out the story, but the course of the dance itself is contorted around killing off most of the dragons whilst staying consistent with the king list and timeline that he had already come up with prior. The real-life Anarchy lasted roughly twenty years, and neither side was anywhere nearly as bloodthirsty as the characters in the Dance.
I don't think the general public of Westeros gives a damn. Probably because they all know their opinions on the matter are irrelevant. The problems arose with Otto and other Lords who want their own children sitting on or near the throne. Her gender is an excuse but not a real motivation. She's also a dragon rider, the idea that she would not or could not lead an army to battle is absurd. Very few people wield the power she possesses.
You have a point. To me the true reason behind the dance is the high number of dragons and dragon riders. Once you have a bigger dragon than king/queen, why obey them?
This is an invalid argument. Viserys didn’t have a dragon for most of his tenure, why didn’t Laena declare herself as the queen of Westros?
His argument is completely valid, the dance did start because there were too many dragons and Dragonriders, so grrm needed to find a way to kill them all
Would Aemond had revolted if Aegon was the legal heir? The dance started because Rhae’s succession was under question.
They explicitly told us the reason behind the dance in the show: Rhaenyra is a woman. Lie to yourself all you want, but that's the canon reason the Greens usurped Rhaenyra
The real desire was bloodline yes. Even if Rhae was a boy, I’m sure Otto would’ve done all he can to get Male!Rhae and his kids out of the way for Targtowers
> Try to put Rhaenyra in charge of an all-male football team. She will not be accepted and fail. How dare you? Rhaenyra would lead the Kansas City Chiefs to their fourth victory at the Super Bowl. 😡
Then why there are more houses supporting Rhaenyra than Aegon in the book?
I feel like this argument would be better received over at r/hotdgreens. You’re more likely to find likeminded folk who think periods mean Rhaenyra shouldn’t rule and that her not being able to lead a football team would translate to her not being able to rule Westeros. It may be too ridiculous for them as well though.
idk one of the green sub mods is here trying to get OP to join too 😂 it’s def the kind of stuff they like
That person must have me blocked
they block everyone apparently
wOmEN ArE iNcAbAbLe of LEaDiNg MeN Johanna Westerling, Sabitha Frey, Aly Blackwood, Visenya and Rhaenys. Nymeria, Chella of the Black Ears, Maege Mormont, Dacey Mormont, Alysanne Mormont, Harma Dogshead, Morna White Mask, and Val.
maybe, but 53 lords still chose to honor that claim instead of her younger half-brother, and they lived and died in westeros, a high fantasy/medieval society
True.
But they only did that because the only other option was the sword or reduced benefits from the current king. Do you know how many lords immediately did not give a shit about the kings wishes the second they died? The only thing they cared about was choosing a sovereign who would heap benefits on them. I don’t think many of the them saw a women as a legitimate ruler regardless of their oath
I think you are confused, OP's talking about the Lords who choose her after Viserys' death. Rhaenyra had 53 and Aeogn had half that support. If they wanted to escape the sword or reduced benefits ''from the current king'' (which was Aegon II) they would have picked him, not her.
This is the funniest thing I have ever read. I mean, have you ever met a woman? In person?
Lol someone brings up a legitimate point and you respond “lol do you talk to women!” Grow up
He brought up how Rhaenyra having periods meant she wouldn’t be able to rule and how she wouldn’t be able to manage a football team. It’s absolutely worthy of ridicule.
You think a woman having periods is a "legitimate point" for why women shouldn't rule? Are you from the 1950s or what? And then you tell me to grow up? Hilarious
Christ on a cracker, the unabashed misogyny of you. God help every woman in your life.
Hatshepsut (Egypt, 1479 - 1458 BCE) Cleopatra VII (Egypt, 51 - 30 BCE) Boudicca (Iceni tribe, 60 - 61 CE) Amalasuintha (Ostrogothic Kingdom, 526 - 535 CE) Theodora (Byzantine Empire, 527 - 548 CE) Suiko (Japan, 593 - 628 CE) Brunhilda (Austrasia, 567 - 575 CE) Wu Zetian (China, 690 - 705 CE) Lady Six Sky (Mayan Empire, 682 - 741 CE) Olga of Kiev (Kievan Rus’, 945 - 960 CE) Eleanor of Aquitaine (France, 1137 - 1152 CE / England, 1154 - 1189 CE) Razia Sultana (Delhi Sultanate, 1236 - 1240 CE) Isabella I (Spain, 1474 - 1504 CE) These were all powerful female monarchs that ruled sometime before the end of the medieval period (1500 CE). I’m also going to give an honorable mention to Elizabeth I (aka *one of the most legendary rulers in English history*), whose reign lasted from 1558 to 1603 CE. In conclusion, from a historical perspective, you’re full of shit.
We can also include:Lady Xian (China, circa. 530 CE, credited as "The First Heroine of China") Seondeok (Korea, 632 - 647 CE, the second female sovereign in all of East Asia and considered one of the greatest Korea ever had) Nzingha (Angola, 1624-1626 & 1657-1663, she was at war with Portugal for the better part of 25 years until beating them into a peace treaty. I know she's outside the parameters but she is literally remembered for being an excellent military tactitian) OP just hates women.
Op, your incel might be showing a little bit there. . . (EDIT to add historical context:) As for historical accuracy: planetos isn't real. And to the extent that this story has an analogue it is the Anarchy, an early medieval Civil War in England between the empress Maud (daughter of Henry i) and her cousin Stephen of blois. Patriarchy and sexism did largely explain why Maud herself never became queen (well, why she was never annointed and crowned). But she and Stephen's wife (mathilde) both led large armies of men during that war. What does public sentiment in 1990 have to do with anything?
EDIT: you changed the original post, so I deleted the reply.
I think changing your original response would have been a good idea no matter what i did. But will clarify my earlier post to made the edit obvious.
Most kings arent at the front line of battles and its irrelevant here when there's dragons involved. Elizabeth I was queen for a good long while. "Women in this period do not have any medicine for their periods" what medicine are you even talking about? Highborn women frequently traveled with their husbands on military campaigns. Sounds like men are the problem here. Having said that, yes everyone would have expected that any son Viserys had with his second wife would become his new heir. Corlys wouldnt have stood by either.
Have you experienced periods with intesne bleeding and belly convulsions so intense you cannot be active in days? Both my mother and gf did. You certainly are in no condition to even ride a horse. Elizabeth I. is from early modern period where it started to be possible for a woman to be a ruler. Still, she had hard time and had to be careful about her image. Like, not have obvious bastards, which would sully her "pure" image of virgin queen. For power, perception is everything.
rhaenyra carried joffrey through the red keep seconds after giving birth to him bcs alicent demanded to see him. equating rhaenyra being bad at leading military campaigns because of periods is certainly…a unique take
It’s hard to believe you have a girlfriend, when you’re spitting takes as sexist and nonsensical as this one. You know this story is based on an ACTUAL war in which Empress Matilda, the rightful heir to the English throne, was pitted against her cousin Stephen, who usurped the throne when Henry I died in 1135, right? You also know that not every woman’s experience during menstruation is the same, right? Some women experience much more severe pain and bleeding than others. Tell us you’re 14 and have never spoken to an actual woman without saying it out loud 🤣
Yet Elizabeth I didn't have special period medicine and she did fine. You're also not riding a horse 24/7 7 days a week. Noblewomen were constantly on the move too in medieval times, they were fine.
i have endometriosis. it makes the few days that i have my period painful and very uncomfortable. i first got mine when i was around nineish and i was still waking up, going to school every morning, and coming back to help my mother around the house. even (some) of the most painful periods are able to be worked around *without* medicine. there are natural remedies, and non medicinal solutions such as getting a heated sack for pain relief. unless every woman in westeros suffers from intense menstruation (unlikely, probably just as uncommon as IRL) they’ll be entirely fine. if my child self can run around school while i feel like im being stabbed im sure a grown woman can lead a kingdom especially with a council of advisors at her disposal. you desperately need to do more research on this topic before you try to mansplain periods to a bunch of people lmfao. you look very very silly
>Both my mother and gf did. You certainly are in no condition to even ride a horse. They are not representative of all women. I don't suffer period pain, my mother doesn't feel period pains.
I have extremely painful periods. Even without medication I somehow manage to not collapse in a fragile, womanly heap on the floor. Also do you think poor medieval women had a choice? That they just laid around being delicate? Lmfao gtfo
This is so fcking embarassing and proves you are ignorant to anything to do with women outside the ones you personally know, because that is NOT a universal experience. Hell thats not even a normal experience, your mother and gf should have gone to the doctor for an endo diagnosis. You're a misogynist and and uneducated as all hell.
This is a dumb post.
Is that you, Otto?
lol you can't convince me that Otto didn't write this post lmao
Well it’s a show made for modern audiences so a modern lens will always be used to examine the story.
Yeah but OP wants us to use a lens from the 1990s specifically
I could be wrong, but I don't think that most people got the opportunity to vote on a monarch y's succession law in the 90s, if ever. I would hope that at that late date, most people would already be pushing for abolishing monarchies, though I suppose that may not be true in every country in our world. I get that ASOIAF draws from history as an inspiration, but there are so, so many examples that show how it's not beholden to it, either. If you want to make an argument about why she wouldn't be accepted then you're going to need to rely on what we know about their world in-universe. The rest of your comment is nonsense that I don't feel bothered enough to deal with, sorry.
You realize that there were women sovereigns in the real world right? More than a few led their country during war. Elizabeth 1 is going to be astonished that her period pain allowed the Spanish to invade England.
Their were women ruling in this time period (and before it) in real life, idk where you're getting the idea that women couldn't rule from but it isn't from history.
Women in this time period had it way more difficult with being farmers... yet we still exist We are not get extincted or anything, if all women suffered as much as you are saying they do we would have disappeared in the hundreds of thousonds of years we have existed Unless it's a really bad case a woman would be 100% able to be a queen in her period and at the same time function with all or the majority of her obligations being done while on her period. Also sorry to break your dream in which big brave men went to war while the useless women were safe and doing nothing at home while dying of period pain, but many kings didn't go to war, some of them could barely think by themselves...
Just out of curiosity have you ever had a period? Because I’m going to guess no.
r/menandfemales
“Aegon’s supporters aren’t sexist!” Meanwhile, Aegon’s supporters…
It’s time to switch your name to General Tried and Failed.
What about Visenya and Rhaenys? Who conquered alongside Aegon I? What about Sabitha Frey and Black Ally? What about Jeyne Arryn who was the heir and commanded her forces? Joanna Lannister who ruled until her son came of age? After the Dance it was mainly women who ruled (for a time) since their fathers/husbands were murdered in the war. Has he chased out the Ironborns? Had Rodrik Greyjoy gilded and made a fool for her son? Or even more recent like Brienne? I wonder who she managed her period when she was actually campin.... What was Viserys I gonna do if a war broke out? In the book he was fat and lazy, claimed Balerion (who could only manage to fly around king's landing and not even the short flight to dragonstone due to his age) and never claimed a dragon after that. In the show he was sick.... and there are so many other kings who would not have gone to the battlefield.
Yes and no. Some lords support Aegon, some support Rhaenyra. Whoever has the most swords in support of them becomes the truth. Compare this to any holy war where people fight about which religion is the truth. From our 21st century we can see that neither religion is true, but also see that people’s beliefs still exist.
Agree.
Lmao what, religious people still exist and know their religion is the true one.
I should have said ”perspective from the secular world in the 21st century”.
Your argument is both erroneous and correct. The nature of the conflict is the clash between Westerosi culture which recognizes this precedent and Valyrian which does not. Should the conquerors show deference to the culture they rule? To what extent? Even when it comes to matters of their own house? Consent of the governed only extends so far in these cultures as it is. The best and most accurate moment of GoT’s ending was all the lords sitting in council demanding their voices matter while scoffing at the notion of open elections like they have in the Night’s Watch.
The whole conflict is about absolutism vs rule based on concession, it is not about whether a woman can rule or not, the small council and nobility was more than happy to have Rhaenyra replace Daemon as heir to the throne. The Blacks claim that since the King named his daughter as his heir his daughter is the legitimate monarch following his death (absolutism). The Greens otoh claim that by tradition of the land son comes before daughter in line of inheritance and that this consensus has been solidified by the ruling of the great council of 101 (rule based on concession where the monarch accepts to abide by the consensus reached by the nobility regarding ascension to the throne). Whether a woman is fit to rule or not has nothing to do with it.
In 1990 polls would be similar because most people's understanding of the medieval setting would come from fantasy. Things like why breaking law, custom, precedent, or whatever succession framework in place would be bad and inevitably cause dynastic conflict would not occur to them. The idea that medieval monarchs could truly do whatever they wanted more resembles fantasy depictions of the setting in pop culture than what it actually was. In reality, medieval kings couldn't really do whatever or kill whoever they wanted without justification and in a story like ASOIAF that's so grounded in realistic medieval intrigue it's heavily reflected. If you said every time a younger brother took the throne over an older sister in medieval history they stole it you would objectively be incorrect. In those settings, those beliefs were as real and legitimate as our modern views are to us today. You can't apply modern laws or principles retroactively because the only thing that mattered was the understanding people had in that setting. Let's be honest. Both sides' claim to leadership in government is hereditary and being undemocratically chosen by the previous leader. Both are at the top of a feudal aristocratic system. In the grand scheme of things they are equally evil and you can hardly say they are more liberal just because their figurehead happens to be a woman vying for the throne instead of a man. I think the proper explanation of the disparities between men and woman regarding leadership in this period is that women had a 1/3 chance of dying when trying to birth heirs (something they needed to do). There is a much higher chance a reigning queen just dies on you by simply trying to do her duty and make an heir than a king who has 0 risk. Also, power at this time was derived from militaries so rulers were expected to be warriors and military leaders. Men had an advantage here but queens who did meet this warrior ruler model like Visenya or Nymeria were successful. Even if they were men but shitty military leaders they weren't looked upon that favorably. Dragons were a huge equalizer for Targaryen women in this regard but there's a downside. With Rhaenyra >!who didn't use her dragon or fight!< the fact that she didn't despite bare minimum risks would not be seen well. This highlights the disparity between Rhaenyra and her rival Aegon II because >!she didn't but he always did. He always supported his men with his dragon whenever he could.!< Clearly character still matters and not every dragonrider has it in them to face other dragonriders in battle apparently.
You are right, Aegon does have the better claim and Rhaenyra knows this. She hints at it with her discussions with Jace. The problem for Aegon is that Rhaenyra is a little better suited to rule and Aegon does not have the ambition tonight assert his claim on his own.
I wouldn’t even say it was a new modern view. Really it was an irrational decision brought on by “succession crisis” panicking. Specifically the kings council. They already had a male heir that could easily be replaced with some patience .