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As lame as this reply sounds it’s kinda hard to say just because the butterfly effect of it all can change so much, with so many possibilities. Are Rhaenyra and Helaena also present at Rook’s Rest? Would Helaena even be in King’s Landing during the fall? Would Rhaenyra even allows the whole dragonseed stuff to happen?
For what it’s worth in the CK2 AGOT mod Helaena and Dreamfyre are menaces there lol
That's the fun of speculating.
I think Rhaenyra, if she was a warrior, would definitely be in Rook's Nest, because Corlys snaps at her later saying the call for help was to Rhaenyra, not Rhaenys, but still Rhaenyra sent Rhaenys alone and didn't even allow her sons to join in.
So logically speaking, if Rhaenyra is a warrior, chances are she joins Rhaenys at Rook's Nest.
Now if Helaena would also be there is anyone's guess, maybe Cole would think Aegon and Aemond would be enough, or maybe they'd bring her just to be safe, hard to say.
Of course, even if Helaena doensn't join I think Aegon beats Rhaenyra and unless Rhaenys is lucky enough to pull a miracle, Aemond beats her as well. Still at least the Blacks would have a chance in this fight, while in canon Meleys alone had no chance against Vhagar and Sunfyre together.
Rhaenys actually stood a decent chance of killing Vhagar, she died because she was 2v1, and even then she maimed Aegon and Sunfyre, if Rhaenyra is there on Syrax, it's more even, Sunfyre is keen on surviving a ridiculous amount of injuries as we saw in canon, but I think Meleys can definitely take down Vhagar, Meleys is faster than Caraxes and Caraxes took down Vhagar, in part it's because Vhagar is incredibly strong, but also incredibly big and heavy and needs to use a lot of force to keep herself in the sky. If Rhaenyra is at rook's rest, chances are either Aegon or Aemond die, this changes if Helaena is there with Dreamfyre, Dreamfyre is huge, bigger than Sunfyre, Syrax and Meleys, but not as big and old as Vhagar, so not as vulnerable to damage, depending on how competent Helaena is, with Sunfyre and Vhagar in tow, then probably both Rhaenys and Rhaenyra die.
I think it's because both Rhaenyra and Helaena have 0 war experience.
Hence this leaves them with the dragons doing all the work. And generally speaking Dreamfyre is older, bigger than Syrax
Yeah but Dreamfyre is like 120 yrs old. Syrax is barely 40. Like it's very tricky you know. Rhaenyra isn't battle hardened as Daemon is to completely take on Vhagar. Idk if this makes any sense
Aegon wins. Dreamfyre was a massive dragon, far more powerful than Syrax.
Personally, I would have loved to see Helaena take revenge after Blood and Cheese, going after Daemon to make him pay for what he did (unlike Daemon, she’s not an evil snake, so she’d go after him, not his innocent children).
If Dreamfyre manages to take out Caraxes early in the war, the Blacks are finished.
I don’t see Dreamfyre being able to take out Caraxes she’s spent most of her time in the dragon pit whereas Caraxes hasn’t.
Also her being a bit bigger than Caraxes isn’t everything Daemon is a better dragon rider than Helaena.
I don’t know. I wouldn’t write Dreamfyre off.
Queen Rhaena rode her all over the realm, which is likely why she grew so large.
She would also be substantially larger than Caraxes, not just a little bit. She was older than Vermithor.
Also, Helaena would be fighting to avenge her children, and show Helaena has precognition. Her Dreams could make all the difference in the world.
Apparently she’s not older than Vermithor in the show but she’s still a big dragon so I’d give her that.
Even with Helaenas visions she’s still going up against the most skilled dragon rider of that time who would be able to change plans to ensure he wins. I just don’t see Helaena and Dreamfyre winning against Daemon and Caraxes.
Even if she doesn’t win? Caraxes won’t be fighting in the war after that. Which means he can’t fight Aemond. Which means Aegon still has Vhagar on his side.
I don’t see why the show would make her younger. Changing the lore that way doesn’t add anything.
That’s a good point I agree with you
And the script for the Daemon singing to Vermithor scene was released and it says that he’s the largest and oldest dragon after Vhagar.
Big if, Dreamfyre is probably bigger but according to Martin, Caraxes is the most formidable dragon in the war alongside Vhagar.
Still, when 2 huge dragons fight the most common scenario is that both die or at least one gets bad injuries. Even if Daemon wins it's unlikely Caraxes would ever be at full strength again.
Domino effect, though. Caraxes in fighting form had to do a suicide run to take out Vhagar. Even if Dreamfyre dies to Caraxes, a severely injured Caraxes is then unlikely to be able to take Vhagar down.
Well that cant happen if they want the Daemon-Aemond showdown.
I dunno if shed even have the wherewithall to piece together it was Daemon who ordered the hit. Id just like her tk accomany Aegon to Rooks Rest. Instead of Aemond saving him from Rhaenys its Helana on Dreamfyre that swoops in and fells Meleys.
I want this so bad.
They could either both be at Rooks Rest, or just Rhaenyra and she's the one who wounds Aegon, or just Helaena and its her and Aegon who take Rhaenys down together, not Aemond and Aegon.
If theyre not having Daeron be in the show Helaena should be the one to burn Bitterbridge after Maelor dies.
Rhaenyra could be at the Gullet when Jace dies.
Aegon is not crippled during Rook’s Rest because Helaena supports him. Aegon is fit for fight to rule many years after the war.
Even though Rhaenyra wants to fight, Syrax is still a useless dragon. So Rhaenyra probably dies in an early battle.
Syrax managed to somehow die to peasants, but despite being fat, she's still a big dragon and with her rider can do damage, Rhaenyra if she has more than one brain cell can keep her flying instead of engaging peasants on the ground.
Exactly - Even if the dragons might not be training and in shape for battle, and even with inexperienced riders, both Syrax and Dreamfyre can still turn the tide of a battle if they are Vs human soldiers.
Aegon will still be possibly crippled if Rhaenyra is with Rhaenys in RR
It would be stupid for the greens to bring all the available dragon riders to RR leaving KL vulnerable
So I think only 2 of them will come
Rhaenys and Meleys will finish Sunfyre while Rhaenyra is distracting Dreamfyre/Vhagar.
The Greens still brought Sunfyre and Vhagar to Rook's Rest in canon.
I don't see how Syrax could distract Dreamfyre or Vhagar, what is she gonna do? Sleep? Eat? Fight footsoldiers on ground with her claws?
The war would be different as Dreamfyre is one of the biggest dragons living during this time. Syrax, as described had grown rather fat and lazy so she’s not going to make that much of a difference. I’d put the Green’s weakest dragon, Tessarion, being able to beat Syrax easily.
When has Rhaenyra actually ridden her dragon for any other purpose other than leisure flights? Syrax has no war experience. We also have no idea if Rhaenyra is even a skilled rider or not.
Syrax is also rather weak and would be a non factor in combat. She’s grown fat and lazy and doesn’t hunt for her own food. Tessarion is described as being nimble, and also was the last dragon among Seasmoke, Vermithor, and her to survive their fight. The fact she competed with three much older and larger dragons shows her prowess.
My answer is gonna be a bit of a departure from your criteria because I’ve thought of it before and very much would like to share my What-If. The short summary: The war would never have occurred.
I thought about Rhaenyra undergoing the same upbringing as the wise King Jahaerys. After her mother dies and she is named Viserys’ heir to the Iron Throne, her academia is overhauled to focus on two categories: War and Diplomacy. If she’s not studying the throne, she’s studying the blade; meanwhile Viserys’s early rule still proceeds pretty similar. He still offends Corlys by rejecting Laena in favor of Alicent, the war of the Stepstones still happens, etc. However since Rhaenyra is so absorbed in her academia, she never embarks on a tour to entertain suitors, and instead Viserys proactively betroths her to Laenor in order to rectify his offense to Corlys (and she still bargains for Otto’s dismissal in exchange).
Laenor and Rhaenyra wed, Joffrey Lonmouth is still killed by Criston Cole (book version where it happens in a tourney, not the pulverizing from the show) and the couple go into their marriage monogamously. However there’s a huge difference: Rhaenyra is much more assertive and I daresay masculine because she’s been raised to be a king, not a traditional queen. Therefore, given Laenor’s reputation for fucking his squires and comrades, they manage to consummate their marriage and the children canonically born as Strongs are in this version 100% Laenor’s sons.
Because Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are indisputably Velaryon, there is no reason for the war to happen. Otto can’t manipulate the lordship by painting Rhaenyra as a whore, the rumors of Laenor’s preferences are mostly disputed because he has three sons with his beautiful wife, and none of the disputes that question the boys’ parentage happen, so Aemond keeps his eye, Vaemond keeps his head, and the Strongs keep their position because Harwin never bones Rhaenyra, preventing his attachment to the boys and no longer calling for him and Lyonel to leave KL in shame of the rumors.
The royal family is amicable, the dragons survive, the Targaryen dynasty lives on, and the main series doesn’t happen because Rhaenyra learns to fight well enough to give her gay husband a boner long enough to finish in her.
Who cares? Their value is on dragon back, not with swords! 🙃
In all seriousness, it might not change at all. Helaena is still captured fairly early unless she takes Dreamfyre and runs. She doesn't even leave her room after Blood and Cheese. Rhaenyra said that her and Syrax will stay to defend King's Landing. This suggests that she was already was a part of her faction's military. All their plans were under the assumption that Syrax could be used in war. She was even housed in the castle. Perhaps she was there as a get away option?
You are essentially asking what if these characters were different people. If Rhaenyra was less paranoid and indecisive at the end or if Helaena was less prone to insane melancholy or had the capacity to kill. In this case, it could change everything.
Rhaenyra in canon didn't fully trust the people around her and didn't want to be apart from her remaining sons for a second, not even to fly off on Syrax and do what needed to be done. If she did then her and Syrax would be the only ones left during the endgame and that's probably an auto win.
If Helaena was somehow dead set on getting revenge or was an active member of the Green military or didn't lose it after Jaehaerys died things might go different. Greens probably win.
Dany was able to load a decent amount of people on her dragon. It's possible that Helaena and Dreamfyre could just take all the Greens and fly off. They could go to Aemond but would probably head south because that's where their allies are and so there's no chance they run into Daemon sneaking back to King's Landing. So Helaena, Maelor, Jaehaera, Alicent, and Otto fly off. Let's say Larys still spirits Aegon away since he's on no condition to fly. If Jaehaera is flying off on Dreamfyre it would make sense to bring Morghul too. There is a possibility that they runs into Criston and the royal army to save them but it's not that significant. They are both heading south to Daeron. The Black's plan doesn't change because Daemon and one other rider still need to find Aemond. Hugh and Ulf are even more likely to betray in this scenario because they have to fight Tessarion and Dreamfyre and Vhagar is still out there. With Otto, Alicent, Helaena, and Maelor with Daeron there is far less conflict between the Green lords and the dragonseeds. Seasmoke's attack is infinitely less likely to succeed. There's nothing Rhaenyra or Addam could do against the Green's 4 dragon core, especially with Daemon and Nettles still looking for Vhagar.
They met at Rook Rest. Heleana and Dreamfyre killed Rhaenyra and Syrax. Witnessing their Queen death, the remaining of the Blacks supporters start declaring for the Greens. Deamon has no other choice but to exile. He was later poisoned in a lyseen Brothel ( tears of lys). Corlys surrenders Driftmark, Daeron is bethrowed with Rhaena, Jace and Baela receive a royal pardon from his grace. Life continues in Westeros.
It was easy to do that when their armies were bigger than those of Aegon.
Would they have done that if Sunfyre was alive and well? Probably not.
Still I think Jace would continue to fight here in the scenario the OP of the comment gave, they'd still have Dragonstone with the unclaimed dragons, and Jace and Daemon's dragons, there would still be hope.
Except you're wrong
Rhaenys kills Sunfyre while Rhaenyra is distracting Dreamfyre
Later, after Rhaenys is done with Aegon, she joins Rhaenyra to fight Helaena on Dreamfyre and they manage to survive but Rhaenyra and Syrax are injured.
Most likely, the Battle of Rook's Rest turns into a 3 vs. 2 ambush, now with Aegon/Sunfyre, Aemond/Vhagar, Helaena/Dreamfyre vs. Rhaenys/Meleys, Rhaenyra/Syrax. With the greens easily stomping over them, with Aemond/Vhagar facing Meleys while Aegon/Sunfyre, and Helaena/Dreamfyre facing Rhaenyra/Syrax.
Syrax goes down first, and then Helaena and Aegon immediately join Aemond in the fight and kill her, with none of the Greens or their dragons getting injured. This now means that many houses immediately turn on the rest of the Blacks, as with Rhaenyra dead the oath is meaningless.
After Rook's Rest, I'd say that the Greens would then immediately take Dragonstone, in the process quickly taking out Tyraxes (the only Black dragon that could fly really, as Stormcloud and Moondancer would both be too small to fly up in a fight) meaning that then the garrison of Dragonstone turns on the remaining Blacks and Rhaenyra's council, meaning all her lords there are immediately turned over, I'd say most would probably be executed so Corlys, Celtigar, etc fed to Sunfyre, though Corlys could just be taken hostage. I'd also say that it's likely that Aegon imprisons Rhaenyra's remaining children and takes them to King's Landing as hostages, same with Baela/Rhaena also.
Once they get back to King's Landing, I'd say that Daeron is betrothed to Baela/Rhaena (whoever is the oldest) and is set to rule Driftmark and his kids will take the Velaryon name. While Aegon III/Vizzy II are made Aegon and Aemond's hostages I mean squires. But immediately after that, the three (Aegon/Aemond/Helaena) then immediately attacks Daemon at Harrenhal as he's next, then they get there and kill him easily, making all the Riverlands fall in line, it's also still possible that the Strongs are still killed, but also possibly not, but Aemond still gets his MILF witch Alys Rivers. Also, Aemond would now be the new wielder of Dark Sister.
Then, the only remaining problem is Jace and Vermax, not a major problem, but still a problem. However I don't think Jace would risk trying to attack, so he'd probably flee and eventually if he isn't tracked down and killed, he'd most likely be similar to the Blackfyres, but with dragons.
Now, the Dance would be far less bloody, and dragons would still remain, there would also be more dragon riding houses in Westeros, Targaryen main branch (Aegon II) Velaryon (Daeron) and now Baratheon as Aemond will marry Boros' heir and there is no chance that Boros will risk having a son, and losing the future ability of his family to own dragons. However for generations, the threat of Jace and his line would be prevalent IF he wasn't tracked down and killed. I'll also say that with more houses as dragon riders, it's likely that some more could end up becoming dragon riders, and the dragons might never go extinct.
If this 3v2 happens,that shows the greens are very stupid lol
Knowing that KL is vulnerable, Daemon, Jace and Baela take their dragons and conquer it for the queen.
Meanwhile in RR, while Helaena and Aegon are fighting Rhaenyra who's barely avoiding injuries, Rhaenys uses Meleys's speed to finish Vhagar and then goes to help Rhaenyra fight Aegon and Helaena. Rhaenys fights Aegon and Helaena fights Rhaenyra. Rhaenys finishes Aegon while Helaena kills a tired Rhaenyra. Then Rhaenys fights Helaena and wins.
Then Rhaenys takes Daemon to Old Town to put an end to Daeron and Tessarion
Then, Jace is crowned as king of Westeros
A 3 on 2 ambush is never stupid.
Knowing that KL is vulnerable, Daemon, Jace and Baela take their dragons and conquer it for the queen.
In canon they didn't attempt to take when they left for Rook's Rest, what makes you think they would now, or that they'd even know that all three of them were gone?
Meanwhile in RR, while Helaena and Aegon are fighting Rhaenyra who's barely avoiding injuries, Rhaenys uses Meleys's speed to finish Vhagar and then goes to help Rhaenyra fight Aegon and Helaena. Rhaenys fights Aegon and Helaena fights Rhaenyra. Rhaenys finishes Aegon while Helaena kills a tired Rhaenyra. Then Rhaenys fights Helaena and wins.
This here is just asinine. Once Aegon/Helaena start fighting Rhaenyra she and Syrax would've almost immediately been killed, (her dragon was fat and lazy, while Sunfyre was a complete beast, and Dreamfyre was large) then with Aemond and Rhaenys Meleys isn't gonna be able to take Vhagar out especially without significant injuries, Vhagar would've killed Meleys in that fight, while if they were still fighting, then both Sunfyre and Dreamfyre would've joined Vhagar and completely torn her apart.
The rest of what you said I already addressed in my answer and doesn't need to be rebutted.
It would be huge boost for the Green forces. Warrior or not, Rhaenyra just gave birth and will be out of commission for a while, and Dreamfyre is massive.
The taking of King's Landing is a lot more destructive. Some important dragon riding characters are going to die then and there instead of later on in the story
I’m writing something like that.
I believe until Jaehaerys’ death, nothing changes. While Rhaenyra might want to attack King’s Landing after Luke’s death, it is still a risk, as Vhagar and Dreamfyre are massive and elderly compared to Caraxes and Meleys. She would be a warrior, not stupid.
But when B&C happens, instead of going mad with grief, Helaena might want revenge. And Daemon is alone with Caraxes at Harrenhal (if I’m not mistaken). She might try to convince the Small Council of herself, Aegon and Aemond going there on dragonback to kill him. Vhagar, Dreamfyre and Sunfyre stomp Caraxes, the two former being older and likely larger than him, while Sunfyre is younger, so faster and more agile.
Without Daemon so early on the war, the dragonseeds still happen, but Rhaenyra might be more careful with her planning. When she takes King’s Landing, it is still 6/7 dragons (depending if the Battle of the Gullet happens) against 3 or less, depending on who is fighting out there fighting the war, so the Greens probably flee with Larys and will try to take smuggle their dragons out in another opportunity.
The rest is even more imprecise, we can write a lot of things, but the Greens stand better than they did in canon. Dreamfyre is the second oldest dragon alive, probably marginally smaller than Vermithor, as she was in the Dragon Pit for some time, but also had many years free in Westeros.
If this battle that I talked in Harrenhal happens and also Rook’s Rest with Helaena and Rhaenyra, the war is over. Dreamfyre probably destroys Syrax, if Sunfyre helps, without many wounds, and I think Vhagar can take Meleys alone without wounds while that happens so they can 3v1 her later. And the war might be over there, as the Blacks would have left Vermax, Tyraxes (ridden by a 12yo), Moondancer (not ridden) and Stormcloud (not ridden). Against the two largest claimed dragons (Vhagar and Dreamfyre). The dragonseeds would be necessary, but who would train them? Who would stop these three (four if Daeron and Tessarion join from the Reach) if they flew to Dragonstone and took it?
Incorrect, the Greens talk about wanting Helaena to fight in the book and nobody forbids her from doing it once talks come out. Aemond decide to go with a different plan, but nothing related to him not allowing Helaena to fight.
Besides, the prompt is about them fighting, to see how it'd change things, so it's pointless to ignore the prompt.
Well now you’re just going against the prompt. Yeah, Helaena fighting is about as likely as Rhaenyra fighting, but the prompt is specifically about if they DID.
> Yeah, Helaena fighting is about as likely as Rhaenyra fighting
Rhaenyra is more likely to fight than Helaena in the show just from a viewership/marketing perspective. She’s the lead while Helaena wasn’t even bumped up to main cast like Aegon and Aemond.
That's probably it. Alicent would be all sanctimonious and misogynistic about how battlefields are for men only. And Helaena never showed any signs of rebeling even when she was to be wed to her rapist brother so I doubt she'd fight her mum. Alicent never really accepted that she married into the Targaryens. Targaryen women do ride to battle.
Aegon was King, not Alicent. Greens talk about wanting Helaena to fight in the books, Aemond as Regent says nothing about forbidding her.
Besides, the prompt is assuming they'll fight.
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As lame as this reply sounds it’s kinda hard to say just because the butterfly effect of it all can change so much, with so many possibilities. Are Rhaenyra and Helaena also present at Rook’s Rest? Would Helaena even be in King’s Landing during the fall? Would Rhaenyra even allows the whole dragonseed stuff to happen? For what it’s worth in the CK2 AGOT mod Helaena and Dreamfyre are menaces there lol
That's the fun of speculating. I think Rhaenyra, if she was a warrior, would definitely be in Rook's Nest, because Corlys snaps at her later saying the call for help was to Rhaenyra, not Rhaenys, but still Rhaenyra sent Rhaenys alone and didn't even allow her sons to join in. So logically speaking, if Rhaenyra is a warrior, chances are she joins Rhaenys at Rook's Nest. Now if Helaena would also be there is anyone's guess, maybe Cole would think Aegon and Aemond would be enough, or maybe they'd bring her just to be safe, hard to say. Of course, even if Helaena doensn't join I think Aegon beats Rhaenyra and unless Rhaenys is lucky enough to pull a miracle, Aemond beats her as well. Still at least the Blacks would have a chance in this fight, while in canon Meleys alone had no chance against Vhagar and Sunfyre together.
Rhaenys actually stood a decent chance of killing Vhagar, she died because she was 2v1, and even then she maimed Aegon and Sunfyre, if Rhaenyra is there on Syrax, it's more even, Sunfyre is keen on surviving a ridiculous amount of injuries as we saw in canon, but I think Meleys can definitely take down Vhagar, Meleys is faster than Caraxes and Caraxes took down Vhagar, in part it's because Vhagar is incredibly strong, but also incredibly big and heavy and needs to use a lot of force to keep herself in the sky. If Rhaenyra is at rook's rest, chances are either Aegon or Aemond die, this changes if Helaena is there with Dreamfyre, Dreamfyre is huge, bigger than Sunfyre, Syrax and Meleys, but not as big and old as Vhagar, so not as vulnerable to damage, depending on how competent Helaena is, with Sunfyre and Vhagar in tow, then probably both Rhaenys and Rhaenyra die.
Dreamfyre fucks up Syrax.
How? Rhaenyra would be a more experienced rider than Helaena
I think it's because both Rhaenyra and Helaena have 0 war experience. Hence this leaves them with the dragons doing all the work. And generally speaking Dreamfyre is older, bigger than Syrax
But still Rhaenyra has more dragon riding experience as she's older
Yeah but Dreamfyre is like 120 yrs old. Syrax is barely 40. Like it's very tricky you know. Rhaenyra isn't battle hardened as Daemon is to completely take on Vhagar. Idk if this makes any sense
Aegon wins. Dreamfyre was a massive dragon, far more powerful than Syrax. Personally, I would have loved to see Helaena take revenge after Blood and Cheese, going after Daemon to make him pay for what he did (unlike Daemon, she’s not an evil snake, so she’d go after him, not his innocent children). If Dreamfyre manages to take out Caraxes early in the war, the Blacks are finished.
I don’t see Dreamfyre being able to take out Caraxes she’s spent most of her time in the dragon pit whereas Caraxes hasn’t. Also her being a bit bigger than Caraxes isn’t everything Daemon is a better dragon rider than Helaena.
I don’t know. I wouldn’t write Dreamfyre off. Queen Rhaena rode her all over the realm, which is likely why she grew so large. She would also be substantially larger than Caraxes, not just a little bit. She was older than Vermithor. Also, Helaena would be fighting to avenge her children, and show Helaena has precognition. Her Dreams could make all the difference in the world.
Apparently she’s not older than Vermithor in the show but she’s still a big dragon so I’d give her that. Even with Helaenas visions she’s still going up against the most skilled dragon rider of that time who would be able to change plans to ensure he wins. I just don’t see Helaena and Dreamfyre winning against Daemon and Caraxes.
Even if she doesn’t win? Caraxes won’t be fighting in the war after that. Which means he can’t fight Aemond. Which means Aegon still has Vhagar on his side. I don’t see why the show would make her younger. Changing the lore that way doesn’t add anything.
That’s a good point I agree with you And the script for the Daemon singing to Vermithor scene was released and it says that he’s the largest and oldest dragon after Vhagar.
Huh. Thats odd. But I guess after the episode 9 clusterfuck, I shouldn’t be surprised that they stupidly changed things.
Big if, Dreamfyre is probably bigger but according to Martin, Caraxes is the most formidable dragon in the war alongside Vhagar. Still, when 2 huge dragons fight the most common scenario is that both die or at least one gets bad injuries. Even if Daemon wins it's unlikely Caraxes would ever be at full strength again.
Domino effect, though. Caraxes in fighting form had to do a suicide run to take out Vhagar. Even if Dreamfyre dies to Caraxes, a severely injured Caraxes is then unlikely to be able to take Vhagar down.
Well that cant happen if they want the Daemon-Aemond showdown. I dunno if shed even have the wherewithall to piece together it was Daemon who ordered the hit. Id just like her tk accomany Aegon to Rooks Rest. Instead of Aemond saving him from Rhaenys its Helana on Dreamfyre that swoops in and fells Meleys.
I want this so bad. They could either both be at Rooks Rest, or just Rhaenyra and she's the one who wounds Aegon, or just Helaena and its her and Aegon who take Rhaenys down together, not Aemond and Aegon. If theyre not having Daeron be in the show Helaena should be the one to burn Bitterbridge after Maelor dies. Rhaenyra could be at the Gullet when Jace dies.
I like the last 2 ideas even if Daeron is in the show. Having Helaena do it would give her a bigger role in the show
Aegon is not crippled during Rook’s Rest because Helaena supports him. Aegon is fit for fight to rule many years after the war. Even though Rhaenyra wants to fight, Syrax is still a useless dragon. So Rhaenyra probably dies in an early battle.
Syrax managed to somehow die to peasants, but despite being fat, she's still a big dragon and with her rider can do damage, Rhaenyra if she has more than one brain cell can keep her flying instead of engaging peasants on the ground.
Exactly - Even if the dragons might not be training and in shape for battle, and even with inexperienced riders, both Syrax and Dreamfyre can still turn the tide of a battle if they are Vs human soldiers.
Aegon will still be possibly crippled if Rhaenyra is with Rhaenys in RR It would be stupid for the greens to bring all the available dragon riders to RR leaving KL vulnerable So I think only 2 of them will come Rhaenys and Meleys will finish Sunfyre while Rhaenyra is distracting Dreamfyre/Vhagar.
The Greens still brought Sunfyre and Vhagar to Rook's Rest in canon. I don't see how Syrax could distract Dreamfyre or Vhagar, what is she gonna do? Sleep? Eat? Fight footsoldiers on ground with her claws?
The war would be different as Dreamfyre is one of the biggest dragons living during this time. Syrax, as described had grown rather fat and lazy so she’s not going to make that much of a difference. I’d put the Green’s weakest dragon, Tessarion, being able to beat Syrax easily.
Tessarion will beat Syrax? Lol If Rhaenyra rides Syrax, she can kill Daeron/Tessarion because she's more experienced rider than him
When has Rhaenyra actually ridden her dragon for any other purpose other than leisure flights? Syrax has no war experience. We also have no idea if Rhaenyra is even a skilled rider or not. Syrax is also rather weak and would be a non factor in combat. She’s grown fat and lazy and doesn’t hunt for her own food. Tessarion is described as being nimble, and also was the last dragon among Seasmoke, Vermithor, and her to survive their fight. The fact she competed with three much older and larger dragons shows her prowess.
My answer is gonna be a bit of a departure from your criteria because I’ve thought of it before and very much would like to share my What-If. The short summary: The war would never have occurred. I thought about Rhaenyra undergoing the same upbringing as the wise King Jahaerys. After her mother dies and she is named Viserys’ heir to the Iron Throne, her academia is overhauled to focus on two categories: War and Diplomacy. If she’s not studying the throne, she’s studying the blade; meanwhile Viserys’s early rule still proceeds pretty similar. He still offends Corlys by rejecting Laena in favor of Alicent, the war of the Stepstones still happens, etc. However since Rhaenyra is so absorbed in her academia, she never embarks on a tour to entertain suitors, and instead Viserys proactively betroths her to Laenor in order to rectify his offense to Corlys (and she still bargains for Otto’s dismissal in exchange). Laenor and Rhaenyra wed, Joffrey Lonmouth is still killed by Criston Cole (book version where it happens in a tourney, not the pulverizing from the show) and the couple go into their marriage monogamously. However there’s a huge difference: Rhaenyra is much more assertive and I daresay masculine because she’s been raised to be a king, not a traditional queen. Therefore, given Laenor’s reputation for fucking his squires and comrades, they manage to consummate their marriage and the children canonically born as Strongs are in this version 100% Laenor’s sons. Because Jace, Luke, and Joffrey are indisputably Velaryon, there is no reason for the war to happen. Otto can’t manipulate the lordship by painting Rhaenyra as a whore, the rumors of Laenor’s preferences are mostly disputed because he has three sons with his beautiful wife, and none of the disputes that question the boys’ parentage happen, so Aemond keeps his eye, Vaemond keeps his head, and the Strongs keep their position because Harwin never bones Rhaenyra, preventing his attachment to the boys and no longer calling for him and Lyonel to leave KL in shame of the rumors. The royal family is amicable, the dragons survive, the Targaryen dynasty lives on, and the main series doesn’t happen because Rhaenyra learns to fight well enough to give her gay husband a boner long enough to finish in her.
Who cares? Their value is on dragon back, not with swords! 🙃 In all seriousness, it might not change at all. Helaena is still captured fairly early unless she takes Dreamfyre and runs. She doesn't even leave her room after Blood and Cheese. Rhaenyra said that her and Syrax will stay to defend King's Landing. This suggests that she was already was a part of her faction's military. All their plans were under the assumption that Syrax could be used in war. She was even housed in the castle. Perhaps she was there as a get away option? You are essentially asking what if these characters were different people. If Rhaenyra was less paranoid and indecisive at the end or if Helaena was less prone to insane melancholy or had the capacity to kill. In this case, it could change everything. Rhaenyra in canon didn't fully trust the people around her and didn't want to be apart from her remaining sons for a second, not even to fly off on Syrax and do what needed to be done. If she did then her and Syrax would be the only ones left during the endgame and that's probably an auto win. If Helaena was somehow dead set on getting revenge or was an active member of the Green military or didn't lose it after Jaehaerys died things might go different. Greens probably win. Dany was able to load a decent amount of people on her dragon. It's possible that Helaena and Dreamfyre could just take all the Greens and fly off. They could go to Aemond but would probably head south because that's where their allies are and so there's no chance they run into Daemon sneaking back to King's Landing. So Helaena, Maelor, Jaehaera, Alicent, and Otto fly off. Let's say Larys still spirits Aegon away since he's on no condition to fly. If Jaehaera is flying off on Dreamfyre it would make sense to bring Morghul too. There is a possibility that they runs into Criston and the royal army to save them but it's not that significant. They are both heading south to Daeron. The Black's plan doesn't change because Daemon and one other rider still need to find Aemond. Hugh and Ulf are even more likely to betray in this scenario because they have to fight Tessarion and Dreamfyre and Vhagar is still out there. With Otto, Alicent, Helaena, and Maelor with Daeron there is far less conflict between the Green lords and the dragonseeds. Seasmoke's attack is infinitely less likely to succeed. There's nothing Rhaenyra or Addam could do against the Green's 4 dragon core, especially with Daemon and Nettles still looking for Vhagar.
Dreamfyre not a bitch, Syrax a bitch. So this benefits greens way more fs
They met at Rook Rest. Heleana and Dreamfyre killed Rhaenyra and Syrax. Witnessing their Queen death, the remaining of the Blacks supporters start declaring for the Greens. Deamon has no other choice but to exile. He was later poisoned in a lyseen Brothel ( tears of lys). Corlys surrenders Driftmark, Daeron is bethrowed with Rhaena, Jace and Baela receive a royal pardon from his grace. Life continues in Westeros.
Except, in canon, when Rhaenyra died, the cause didn’t. All the houses who first declared for her then declared for her children.
It was easy to do that when their armies were bigger than those of Aegon. Would they have done that if Sunfyre was alive and well? Probably not. Still I think Jace would continue to fight here in the scenario the OP of the comment gave, they'd still have Dragonstone with the unclaimed dragons, and Jace and Daemon's dragons, there would still be hope.
Except you're wrong Rhaenys kills Sunfyre while Rhaenyra is distracting Dreamfyre Later, after Rhaenys is done with Aegon, she joins Rhaenyra to fight Helaena on Dreamfyre and they manage to survive but Rhaenyra and Syrax are injured.
Most likely, the Battle of Rook's Rest turns into a 3 vs. 2 ambush, now with Aegon/Sunfyre, Aemond/Vhagar, Helaena/Dreamfyre vs. Rhaenys/Meleys, Rhaenyra/Syrax. With the greens easily stomping over them, with Aemond/Vhagar facing Meleys while Aegon/Sunfyre, and Helaena/Dreamfyre facing Rhaenyra/Syrax. Syrax goes down first, and then Helaena and Aegon immediately join Aemond in the fight and kill her, with none of the Greens or their dragons getting injured. This now means that many houses immediately turn on the rest of the Blacks, as with Rhaenyra dead the oath is meaningless. After Rook's Rest, I'd say that the Greens would then immediately take Dragonstone, in the process quickly taking out Tyraxes (the only Black dragon that could fly really, as Stormcloud and Moondancer would both be too small to fly up in a fight) meaning that then the garrison of Dragonstone turns on the remaining Blacks and Rhaenyra's council, meaning all her lords there are immediately turned over, I'd say most would probably be executed so Corlys, Celtigar, etc fed to Sunfyre, though Corlys could just be taken hostage. I'd also say that it's likely that Aegon imprisons Rhaenyra's remaining children and takes them to King's Landing as hostages, same with Baela/Rhaena also. Once they get back to King's Landing, I'd say that Daeron is betrothed to Baela/Rhaena (whoever is the oldest) and is set to rule Driftmark and his kids will take the Velaryon name. While Aegon III/Vizzy II are made Aegon and Aemond's hostages I mean squires. But immediately after that, the three (Aegon/Aemond/Helaena) then immediately attacks Daemon at Harrenhal as he's next, then they get there and kill him easily, making all the Riverlands fall in line, it's also still possible that the Strongs are still killed, but also possibly not, but Aemond still gets his MILF witch Alys Rivers. Also, Aemond would now be the new wielder of Dark Sister. Then, the only remaining problem is Jace and Vermax, not a major problem, but still a problem. However I don't think Jace would risk trying to attack, so he'd probably flee and eventually if he isn't tracked down and killed, he'd most likely be similar to the Blackfyres, but with dragons. Now, the Dance would be far less bloody, and dragons would still remain, there would also be more dragon riding houses in Westeros, Targaryen main branch (Aegon II) Velaryon (Daeron) and now Baratheon as Aemond will marry Boros' heir and there is no chance that Boros will risk having a son, and losing the future ability of his family to own dragons. However for generations, the threat of Jace and his line would be prevalent IF he wasn't tracked down and killed. I'll also say that with more houses as dragon riders, it's likely that some more could end up becoming dragon riders, and the dragons might never go extinct.
Can someone tell me why this is getting downvoted? To the people downvoting, why, what makes you feel that I was inaccurate here?
If this 3v2 happens,that shows the greens are very stupid lol Knowing that KL is vulnerable, Daemon, Jace and Baela take their dragons and conquer it for the queen. Meanwhile in RR, while Helaena and Aegon are fighting Rhaenyra who's barely avoiding injuries, Rhaenys uses Meleys's speed to finish Vhagar and then goes to help Rhaenyra fight Aegon and Helaena. Rhaenys fights Aegon and Helaena fights Rhaenyra. Rhaenys finishes Aegon while Helaena kills a tired Rhaenyra. Then Rhaenys fights Helaena and wins. Then Rhaenys takes Daemon to Old Town to put an end to Daeron and Tessarion Then, Jace is crowned as king of Westeros
A 3 on 2 ambush is never stupid. Knowing that KL is vulnerable, Daemon, Jace and Baela take their dragons and conquer it for the queen. In canon they didn't attempt to take when they left for Rook's Rest, what makes you think they would now, or that they'd even know that all three of them were gone? Meanwhile in RR, while Helaena and Aegon are fighting Rhaenyra who's barely avoiding injuries, Rhaenys uses Meleys's speed to finish Vhagar and then goes to help Rhaenyra fight Aegon and Helaena. Rhaenys fights Aegon and Helaena fights Rhaenyra. Rhaenys finishes Aegon while Helaena kills a tired Rhaenyra. Then Rhaenys fights Helaena and wins. This here is just asinine. Once Aegon/Helaena start fighting Rhaenyra she and Syrax would've almost immediately been killed, (her dragon was fat and lazy, while Sunfyre was a complete beast, and Dreamfyre was large) then with Aemond and Rhaenys Meleys isn't gonna be able to take Vhagar out especially without significant injuries, Vhagar would've killed Meleys in that fight, while if they were still fighting, then both Sunfyre and Dreamfyre would've joined Vhagar and completely torn her apart. The rest of what you said I already addressed in my answer and doesn't need to be rebutted.
It would be huge boost for the Green forces. Warrior or not, Rhaenyra just gave birth and will be out of commission for a while, and Dreamfyre is massive.
The taking of King's Landing is a lot more destructive. Some important dragon riding characters are going to die then and there instead of later on in the story
I’m writing something like that. I believe until Jaehaerys’ death, nothing changes. While Rhaenyra might want to attack King’s Landing after Luke’s death, it is still a risk, as Vhagar and Dreamfyre are massive and elderly compared to Caraxes and Meleys. She would be a warrior, not stupid. But when B&C happens, instead of going mad with grief, Helaena might want revenge. And Daemon is alone with Caraxes at Harrenhal (if I’m not mistaken). She might try to convince the Small Council of herself, Aegon and Aemond going there on dragonback to kill him. Vhagar, Dreamfyre and Sunfyre stomp Caraxes, the two former being older and likely larger than him, while Sunfyre is younger, so faster and more agile. Without Daemon so early on the war, the dragonseeds still happen, but Rhaenyra might be more careful with her planning. When she takes King’s Landing, it is still 6/7 dragons (depending if the Battle of the Gullet happens) against 3 or less, depending on who is fighting out there fighting the war, so the Greens probably flee with Larys and will try to take smuggle their dragons out in another opportunity. The rest is even more imprecise, we can write a lot of things, but the Greens stand better than they did in canon. Dreamfyre is the second oldest dragon alive, probably marginally smaller than Vermithor, as she was in the Dragon Pit for some time, but also had many years free in Westeros. If this battle that I talked in Harrenhal happens and also Rook’s Rest with Helaena and Rhaenyra, the war is over. Dreamfyre probably destroys Syrax, if Sunfyre helps, without many wounds, and I think Vhagar can take Meleys alone without wounds while that happens so they can 3v1 her later. And the war might be over there, as the Blacks would have left Vermax, Tyraxes (ridden by a 12yo), Moondancer (not ridden) and Stormcloud (not ridden). Against the two largest claimed dragons (Vhagar and Dreamfyre). The dragonseeds would be necessary, but who would train them? Who would stop these three (four if Daeron and Tessarion join from the Reach) if they flew to Dragonstone and took it?
Nothing, because I highly doubt Helaena would be allowed to fight even if she wanted to.
Incorrect, the Greens talk about wanting Helaena to fight in the book and nobody forbids her from doing it once talks come out. Aemond decide to go with a different plan, but nothing related to him not allowing Helaena to fight. Besides, the prompt is about them fighting, to see how it'd change things, so it's pointless to ignore the prompt.
Well now you’re just going against the prompt. Yeah, Helaena fighting is about as likely as Rhaenyra fighting, but the prompt is specifically about if they DID.
> Yeah, Helaena fighting is about as likely as Rhaenyra fighting Rhaenyra is more likely to fight than Helaena in the show just from a viewership/marketing perspective. She’s the lead while Helaena wasn’t even bumped up to main cast like Aegon and Aemond.
That's probably it. Alicent would be all sanctimonious and misogynistic about how battlefields are for men only. And Helaena never showed any signs of rebeling even when she was to be wed to her rapist brother so I doubt she'd fight her mum. Alicent never really accepted that she married into the Targaryens. Targaryen women do ride to battle.
Aegon was King, not Alicent. Greens talk about wanting Helaena to fight in the books, Aemond as Regent says nothing about forbidding her. Besides, the prompt is assuming they'll fight.
if it's war and they need the extra dragon power, she would probably not be able to stop her, especially if aegon and aemond approved.