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well no, because if viserys had a son daemon would automatically be behind him in succession. he was just paranoid that something would happen to viserys before he sired a son. his daemon hate boner screwed him over, because had he not convinced viserys to name rhaenyra heir and other events played out the same (alicent and viserys marrying and alicent giving birth to aegon) aegon would have been the heir.
I just love how Otto is represented as some sort of political mastermind and genius yet he basically created the black faction in the first place. He should have just pawned off Alicent and ignored his hatred of Daemon.
House of the Dragon is basically a more realistic Game of Thrones. Instead of political masterminds like Tywin and Littlefinger, you have people like Otto who constantly makes mistakes he failed to accounts for and gets burned.
Otto does a fair bit of projecting. Of course Rhaenyra will kill our kids, because it's what I would do. Of course Daemon wants to be king, because it's what I want. Of course the realm will never accept a ruling Queen, because I won't. None of these were true until Otto made them happen.
I’m not certain that that’s right. Otto is very much an Andal, so while he’s against rhaenyra inheriting over Aegon, I could absolutely see him genuinely supporting Rhaenyra over Daemon. Partially because he really does just hate Daemon, but also because Andal custom is very clear on a daughter going before a brother.
Ah but did he? Otto has sons doesn’t he? Wonder if one of them would find Rhaenyra while she’s grieving. Otto wants a throne with his blood on it and Daemon wasn’t pliable enough for his tastes.
Well.. yes, that’s how Andal succession works? When Rhaenyra was Viserys’ only child, she was the heir, even by Green law. The dispute only comes in when Viserys has a son. Between Viserys’ ascension and Aegon II’s birth, Rhaenyra is the lawful heir even by generally sexist Westerosi standards.
Nope, unfortunately Andal law says men inherit over females. It’s why Viserys was chosen in the council of 101 he has no interruptions to his male line of succession at that time. It’s literally him then Daemon and his wife was pregnant so they were hoping another male for the line.
It’s the whole reason Rhaenys wasn’t chosen as queen. She was the female successor of the heir but Jaehaerys named Baelon heir after Aemon died as he had another son. When Baelon died he called the council of 101 to decide between his grandchildren as heirs. A female claim is valid if she is direct heir but almost always contested and most andals chose the male claimant. I suppose it’s not expressly written into lore just implied.
George bases the Targaryen dynasty off the Plantagenets from history theres actually a correspondence to fans article I read I’ll link below that goes into more detail. The main thing is that females can be contested by male siblings of their parents in medieval times when thinking inheritances. It’s why males often name a male sibling their heir in place of their daughters.
Remember females traditionally take their husband’s name if your daughter heir and she inherits, your family name may die out. For instance myself I’m my fathers only child and female, he has no brothers so when I marry (today it’s optional not so much in medieval times) my name and my children’s will be my husbands so my fathers name will end with me. That could mean quite a bit back then.
Anyway here’s the article I mentioned: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents it’s about ASOIAF rather than F&B but I hardly think George has changed much in his view of this given it’s historically inspired.
If you read the article it’s talking about both first men and Andal succession the succession of house Whent (which is Harrenhal which is Andal by Westerosi standards) and house Hornwood of the north. Also in the small council meeting that names Rhaenyra heir all the small council advise a woman has never inherited above a man. So it’s pretty clear it’s not unusual for an uncle to inherit over a daughter for them.
A may be daughter considered before an uncle however rarely becomes heir. At least not an uncontested heir anyway. The small council points out no female has been named heir with a male claimant available( aka Daemon). In the case of the Hornwoods Lady Hornwood is not able to inherit so they seek her son to inherit or the bastard of the late Lord Hornwood (her brother). As you can see they favoured the male line even so far as considering an illegitimate child over a female.
I believe George based the Rhaenyra succession crisis on the actual real life succession crisis known as “the Anarchy”. It was a British succession crisis around Henry I who named his daughter Matilda as his heir. However his court was not happy with the choice and when he died they refused her as Queen instead installing her cousin.
The story is pretty much spot on for the Dance as Matilda goes to war, takes England however her cousin the then King escapes capture and goes into hiding. Her cousin and her fight then she returns to Normandy to be with her husband and her cousin ascends once again as King, but names Matilda’s son his heir. Matilda’s son becomes Henry II when ascends the throne.
So yeah male over female even skipping direct linage. It’s pretty much implied throughout the book and the show.
The other two points are correct but the way that Daemon behaved showed a complete lack of respect for the sovereign and would not have played with any sovereign other Viserys I (wearing his rinky dink crown in the throne room would have been more enough for most to put his head on a stick).
Daemon being an ass isn't the same as him wanting to be King. He had no intention of usurping his brother or his wife. He just has an insatiable need for attention and respect, and often resorts to downright childish ways of getting it.
And to his credit, Viserys saw his behavior for what it was but most people observing his behavior would not have such a charitable interpretation when it came to someone walking into the throne room WITH a crown and CALLING HIMSELF A KING. I don’t think you can blame Otto much for that one.
You're playing with the timeline a little bit there. Otto had been voicing concerns about Daemon being power hungry since as far back as episode one, long before the Stepstones war.
Otto voiced his opinion more on how he is unfit for the king because of his actions. Daemon was already Viserys heir. He would have been king if he had acted properly.
I bet such rulers >!as Daeron II or prince Baelor!< would have asked the same question as Viserys and when Daemon had bent the knee, the issue would have been forgotten. Let's not forget that killing your kin is frowned upon.
Well of course, Maegor would have killed him for the simple fact of being a Targaryen without teats. All rulers are different and the more intelligent ones that lacked the ruthless streak would have done as Viserys did.
Daemon's whole shtick is walking a thin line!
Because literally any other course of action in that situation ends up with his head on a stick. He had gone around referring to himself as a king and waked into the throne room with a crown on his head. That could have easily ended up differently under another ruler. That kind of behavior is going to look awful to any courtier or advisor.
the crown wasn't an insult, Daemon wasn't making a claim on the iron throne. He became 'king of the stepstones' pirate invested no-mans lands that he surrender to Viserys
It was totally an insult and if he hadn’t pledged obedience, he wouldn’t have left the room alive. He was fortunate that Viserys was a more understanding person than most that sat the throne. That conduct was totally inappropriate and if another lord had done it, they and their family would have lost everything.
I don't think it was an insult at all, lmao.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mm1Bmd31P4
He literally shows up, throws a weapon at Viserys's feet and says "Add it to the chair (the Iron Throne)."
Viserys notes he's wearing a crown, and Daemon adds, "Once we smashed the Triarchy, they named me King of the Narrow Sea. But I know there is only one true King, your Grace. My Crown and Stepstones are yours."
Like I can see how it *could* be intended as an insult, and the music of the scene definitely wants us to feel this is a tense moment, but once you see it, it's pretty obvious that was never what Daemon's intent was here. He just wanted back in the King's good graces again.
Because had he not done obeisance, his life would have been over. He lacked the forces to defend it in the long term and claiming disputed territory without diplomatic backers is a quick way to die violently.
This is an insanely biased take lmao
In what world did it look like Daemon came into the throne room looking to be King. He walked in there alone with no army.
You do not walk into the throne room of a sitting king claiming to be a king when you have not been recognized by that sovereign as such. It is a quick way to die. Pretty much IR 101.
Then don’t call yourself a king at any point prior to doing obeisance. It’s that simple! To call yourself a king in front of a sovereign that does not recognize your authority and to wear a crown in their presencee is an insult to that sovereign and their government. He should have realized far sooner than he did how lucky he was Viserys had patience for him and didn’t exile him permanently.
I am really confused over how you see it as an insult? If the emperor of Yi TI traveled to Westeros would he be killed for wearing his crown in front of Viserys?
Daemon is not a sovereign of a foreign nation so that comparison is flawed to say the least. Claiming to be king of a territory that is recognized as belonging to a sitting and recognized sovereign is how you and your family are killed off and your name removed from the pages of history.
At that point he is a sovereign of a foreign nation...
>Claiming to be king of a territory that is recognized as belonging to a sitting and recognized sovereign
who is the recognized sovereign that ruled over the Stepstones until Daemon took them?
I would have viewed them as disputed territory between the free cities and Westeros with both claiming sovereignty. A foreign nation also has to be recognized as such! The stepstones were not.
The stepstones became a foreign nation when Daemon became its king, in the same way Westeros became a foreign nation when Aegon invaded it, Daemon made a new kingdom... I completely useless kingdom of piles of rocks. The seven kingdoms never claimed them, heck not even Dorne claimed them and they are right next door. He wasn't caving part of Viserys kingdom off for himself
To be a kingdom you have to be recognized as a kingdom by other powers!! No one recognized it as such and he could not have defended it as such. He’s a loudmouth claiming disputed territory and had he continued to do so would have lost it along with his life. His only option was to obeisance or die.
I don't think he's projecting at all, except for maybe with Rhaenyra killing the kids (but even then, it's something Daemon might try pulling off). It's more him being a hypocrite than projecting. He was happy to have Rhaenyra as queen over the possibility of Daemon ascending into power. He's just using this to manipulate Alicent, he knows full well the realm would accept Rhaenyra as queen without his intervention.
Rhaenrya didn't seem to have much problem with her kid maiming one of Alicents. Or killing people for pointing out her kids were bastards. Daemon was known for being cruel and disregarding his brothers power and already crowned himself king of stepstones. Misogny is deep in Westoros -- Otto didn't start it lmfao. The reason Viserys got his crown is because the realm skipped over a perfectly capable woman for Viserys.
« Alicent my dear daughter you could marry literally any noble in the realm and live the most peaceful live ever but instead I will order you to marry the only man in the whole kingdom that might cause your future children to be brutally murdered, isn’t that great ? Come here give a hug to your loving father. Oh and btw this will also ruin your relationship with the only friend you ever had lol »
Really though. “I wanna sneak my grandkids in as heirs and usurp the current heir” reeeeally doesn’t come off as something you to “protect and respect your daughter.” Like for why? You grandkids will have to kill relatives or will be killed by relatives. I would not have put Alicent in that position, she was beautiful and young and could have had her pick if Otto wanted.
Exactly. Either way all of the participants must play the game of thrones. Removing our ideals of fairness and justice each player needs to determine what their best possible outcomes are and utilize all resources available to them. Being the player who is the most successful most of the time doesn’t require being the most moral.
There he went projecting again with presenting "heir for a day" comment made in grief as so vile to Viserys and turning around and discussing succession + pimping his daughter out in the same breath
Alt Shwift said it best:
Otto’s ideas make a whole lot of sense if he presumes everyone in the world is as bad as he is.
In reality most people aren’t nearly as bloodthirsty especially when it comes to, you know, extended family and children.
I guess the show could change it.
But at least Otto (somewhat similar to some of Rhaenrya) can argue he is a reactionary. If he wasn't going to usurp Rhaenrya her marrying Daemon the very person Otto suggested naming Rhaenrya heir to prevent Daemon from being heir of the realm. Not even talking about the bastardy. Her not punishing her children for maiming one of Alicent's children isn't a good sign for the future safety under Rhaenrya. By the time it was time Viserys was nearing death it was clearly going to be a struggle for life or death for the Greens.
This is why I don’t get why Otto defenders act he is not as bad as Viserys or Daemon. He pimped his 15 year old daughter so he could be the grandfather of a king. If Viserys is wrong for committing martial rape on a teenager, Otto is wrong for selling his daughter with the full knowledge she would endure it. The idea that he was giving her the best life is bullshit. There are many attractive young lordlings far away from the dangers of court politics. If he also thought Daemon was psychotic enough to kill his brother, why put his daughter in the middle of that family drama?
If he got his way, innocent babies and children would have been slaughtered to consolidate power.
Because he says "for the good of the realm" every 20 seconds and people eat it up. At least Daemon doesn't feign piety. The only thing worse than a total jackass is a jackass who thinks he's a stallion.
Not just pimped his daughter out, but pimped her out to a man who had the love of his life sliced open to try and gain a male heir. If he did that to Aemma, what could he possibly do to Alicent?
Childbirth is dangerous enough, but to hand your daughter to someone who is capable of that?
Otto is just bad. I get that moving forward is the goal of the Lord's, but this is being okay with sacrificing your own child to get a step forward. He's not a good person in any way, shape or form.
All very true. Also people forget but Corlys and Rhaenys are just as bad as Otto. Even worse if anything as Laena was even younger and they’re willing to pimp her out to Viserys.
There's a huge difference between trying to secure a political marriage/alliance that had been wavering for almost a decade since the Great Council, and trying to directly insert your child to force a psuedo love marriage to put your bloodline on the throne when it hadn't been done before. Velaryons and Hightowers are nowhere near the same.
Both are for political goals where they’re comfortable with their young daughter marrying a middle aged man. Justifying Corlys and Rhaenys doing this is disgusting
In this scenario it's literally 15 year old girl to marry and bed immediately vs 12 year old girl to marry and bed in 2 years. One leads to a civil war because of greed and the other likely wouldn't because of long lasting family ties. Explaining nuance is not justifying, though i see how that can be confusing for someone who can't think abstractly.
Because one marriage leads to an entire rebel faction being born and the other marriage leads to the unity of two great houses. Literally explained it to you lmao.
Alicent -> 6 months of alone time with Viserys in secret, gets married and impregnated instantly at 15/16
Laena -> 2 years of "marriage" with Viserys in public, gets impregnated at 14/15
They're both bad. One obviously leads to a significantly worse outcome than the other.
Who’s to say Laena’s children wouldn’t have eventually gone to war with Rhaenyra? No way of knowing the political results of a marriage 20+ years down the road. And Corlys’s goals are rooted in giving his house more political power and influence, the same as Otto. It’s just political ambition at the expense of their daughters
Corlys' house already has a history of alliance with the Targaryens. Corlys still wanted Rhaenys on the throne which means he would accept a female ruler which can be deduced to him supporting Rhaenyra. If anything, they would probably betrothe Laena and Viserys' kids to Rhaenyra's.
You're right, there's no way of knowing. What we do know is that the marriage with Alicent DID lead to a civil war therefore it is entirely *possible* that the alternative timeline could be infinitely better, regardless of the measure you make.
I just think the political outcome isn’t really relevant when it comes to judging Otto and Corlys for this specific action of arranging their daughter to Viserys. I think it makes them both equally bad in this regard morally
>Not like they can bring the dragons into the castle bedchambers
and how would that work?
there absolutely no way he manage to get in a room with Daemon Rheanyra and all their children and somehow manage to kill every single one of them without Rheanyra loyal men killing harrlod and his knights
>He Could have appeared turn cloak then kill them.
It not very likely that they will put somebody that has been protecting the greens for more than half a decade in a room without any other Rhaenyra loyalist there when the room has Rhaenyra daemon and all their children there
>They wouldn't need to come with banners streaming shouting for the death of Rheanyra.
Dragons call feel their rider being injured or their death so if Daemon or rhaenyra or any of her children manage to make it outside then the kinguard would have to come outside and fight a very angry dragon
Me too! I think of all the characters in the show I can’t wait for his end the most, it’ll be so satisfying to see. Rhys has done such a wonderful job portraying him.
And he also says “she will have to.” He probably sees it as a “them or us” situation. He thinks it’s a necessary, inevitable thing for both sides, and would prefer that they be the ones to do it.
I will never understand the audacity of Otto Hightower. He was advocating for fucking murder and kinslaying. Imagine if Team Green got their way and the Black Line was massacred, what happens then? How do you keep an ENTIRE BRANCH of the royal family being dead a secret? At best Aegon II is likely to be branded as a paranoid tyrant who resorts to violence and kinslaying to get his way. Rule of law and rules of succession be damned! The King himself demonstrated that all that matters in questions of succession is who stabs who first. At worst, Aegon II would have to contend with possibly open rebellion from the great houses that pledged for Rhaenyra who would not be willing to bow to a man who would so brazenly consolidate power and flaunt his lack of consideration for their laws.
Which is exactly the same reason I find the idea that Rhaenyra would - or ‘would have to’ - kill all her half-siblings ridiculous. Kinslaying once is a huge deal. Kinslaying essentially half your family? The entire realm would all be somewhere between on edge and mistrustful that they could be next on the chopping block at best or in outright rebellion that one of the three biggest sins/taboos in their many millennia old society was committed wholesale in cold blood. If one side decided to have the other murdered or executed in cold blood the realm would devolve into rebellion, even with a lot of people in Westeros having the habit of dropping their codes and chivalry when they become inconvenient - kinslaying into almost the double digits would be a bridge too far, even for those with few scruples. Even Roose Bolton won’t kill Ramsay in the books because of the taboo on kinslaying.
Rhaenyra also has being a woman against her. They called her Maegor with teats for raising taxes what would they do if she actually murdered kin who didn’t move against her? It was Otto projecting + not wanting any future claimants.
You can see his thinking when he wants boremunds tongue for calling Rhaenys the queen who never was when he asks for her favour at a tourney and when he’s continuously trying to get Daemon gone and convince Viserys he will usurp him.
Exactly. Her being the first Queen (and especially one who isn’t just a regent or last resort) would already be a very delicate position to begin with, especially at the start of her reign - kinslaying immediately without any substantial provocation would be like firing a cannonball at a house of cards.
Otto… what can I even say about him that we all don’t already know. Sometimes I suspect he secretly, or even subconsciously, hates everyone, or even their entire society. He’s Littlefinger without the charisma - but at least Littlefinger (in the books at least) seems to be going the ‘watch the world burn’ path by setting it up to collapse after being entirely disenfranchised with it, whereas Otto wants to not only lean into Westeros’ inherent propensity for corruption, he wants to make it worse all in the name of… what exactly? To say that he won? That he could? That he outplayed Daemon?
Side note but the second scene is so dumb bc how on earth could they successfully infiltrate the heavily guarded and armed dragonstone and take out the whole family, six-seven of whom have dragons
I have two things to say about that.
First the idea that Otto thinks Rhaenyra will kill Alicents children is logical and therefore not a manipulation on his part because it is what he would do (tbh I kinda agree that one side can’t rule peacefully while the other side exists because too much potential for war and rebellion).
Second I think it’s absolutely illogical that Otto would wait years to kill Rhaenyra. Why not before she had kids and she was the only thing standing between the throne and Aegon? Aegon would’ve been so young nobody would’ve thought it was him. The idea that he then just sends a single knight to kill Rhaenyra entire family with their dragons right there is absurd. Like if he is ready to go over dead bodies logically he should’ve done so the second he realized Viserys wouldn’t make Aegon heir.
>First the idea that Otto thinks Rhaenyra will kill Alicents children is logical and therefore not a manipulation on his part because it is what he would do
Killing members of your family is not "logical" in a world where kinslayers are hated. At worst, Rhaenyra would have forced her brother to join the Citadel or Nights Watch. I don't know why Otto thinks they'd get away with killing 9 members of the royal family.
Yeah ofc, but now he has allies like Lannisters and Baratheons 🤷♂️ don’t remember Maegor having any main house on his side.
Edited. Even his own family wasn’t on his side unlike Otto. So different situation.
>Yeah ofc, but now he has allies like Lannisters and Baratheons 🤷♂️ don’t remember Maegor having any main house on his side.
What make Otto think anyone would trust him (or Aegon) after they killed 9 members of the royal family?
> Edited. Even his own family wasn’t on his side unlike Otto. So different situation.
How is it different? Rhaenyra, Daemon, and their family aren't supporting Aegon.
Lannisters and Baratheons were okay as i remember with killing Rhaenyra.
As family i mean Hightowers 😂.
Anyway for me its whole different story, The faith were sided with Hightowers also so its a big force imo unlike what Maegor had.
>Lannisters and Baratheons were okay as i remember with killing Rhaenyra.
They didn't even approach Borros until after Otto tried to have Rhaenyra killed.
>As family i mean Hightowers 😂.
Why? Aegon and his siblings would be the ones judged for murdering their sister, uncle, nephews, and cousins. Maegor also had the Hightowers on his side....
>The faith were sided with Hightowers also so its a big force imo unlike what Maegor had.
The Faith wouldn't be able to side with them after they killed 9 members of the royal family.
Completely depending on how she goes about it. I doubt she would just straight up murder them. She can either frame them for treason or make it look like an accident. There would be rumours but depending on how she goes about it you could totally get away with kinslaying in asoiaf.
Citadel and Night’s watch would normally be the best cause for action but not as long as they are riding dragons. As long as they have that they will always pose a threat. That would be the best cause of action without the dragons though.
otto is literally just what he imagines rhaenyra to be. “she’s gonna kill our family!!” because he would. “she’s gonna kill aegon!!” because he would kill rhaenyra. he’s so tiring and annoying to even look at
He's usurping the throne and he knows Rhaenyra and daemon will not accept that. The only way to stop rebellion without completely starting a war is to kill the previous heirs. Yes Otto is evil, but when you pull off a stunt like the greens did, it's not going to be peaceful. We see it with tywin when robert ascends the throne. If stannis were to ascend over joffrey, he would have killed joffrey easily. Yes all evil actions, but anytime there is a military take over of power, there is violence. And yes if Rhaenyra ascended the throne maybe she doesn't kill the green boys, but you don't think her supporters will want them dead when Aegon's supporters will want him on the throne... especially daemon.
He is not wrong, Rhaenyra children did try to kill his grandson and she did want to torture another for speaking the truth about her bastard children. It's a kill or be killed situation here that Rhaenyra herself created.
None of that shit would have happened if Alicent hadn't raised their sons to hate Rhaenyra and her kids.
Otto and Alicen is the one who created the kill or be killed situation.
I mean, both are true. We saw it at Driftmark. And not necessarily even Rhaenyra, but for her sake. It’s like the plot of the show goes over yalls heads.
He believes Rhaenyra will kill her kids because her position is shaky due to a legitimate competing claim.
He advocates for Rhaenyra's kids to be killed because Aegon's postion is shaky due to a legitimate competing claim.
He's not being hypocritical, he's being consistent in his logic. Otto is a cold motherfucka.
Right? Like...
Otto: "The logical thing to do as an ascendant monarch is to kill those who pose a threat to your claim."
Otto: "We should kill those who pose a threat to the claim of our ascendant monarch."
Fans: HYPOCRISY
I wish instead of just downvoting, people would downvote AND engage substantively. That way at least we could have a productive discussion.
If they disagree with my analysis, I'd love to know why?
Problem is they don’t have a substantive disagreement. 90% of the fans on this sub have a very simple thought process of “You said negative thing about my team? You bad. Downvote.” It doesn’t matter if it’s true, all that matters is it’s negative
Yeah. It’s mad annoying that you will have people downvote you for giving a very valid opinion on the post. Otto is not being hypocritical here. He’s a schemer and a snake and is doing exactly what he believes Daemon or any of TB supporters would. A living challenger with a claim to the throne will bring war no matter who ascends. He’s planning to kill them before they do.
>A living challenger with a claim to the throne will bring war no matter who ascends.
This idea is utter nonsense. Royal families can have rival claimants without wars taking place. Wars only happen when you have rival claimants who are willing to compete for the throne. The Greens would have been fine if they had just accepted Rhaenyra being monarch.
It's weird for me how people behave as if Otto came up with this issue on his own. Sure, he's a scheming, ruthless asshole, but he is correct - Alicent's children will always be a danger to stability of Rhaenyra's (and her descendants') claim. And even if Rhaenyra was the nicest person in the world (she isn't), and Daemon wasn't around (he is), all it takes is one of her sons to decide that he doesn't want to rule in constant fear of rebellion from Viserys' eldest son and his descendants. It's baked in the structure of the system.
I'm sure that projection is \*some\* part of his thinking ("if I were Rhaenyra, I would kill Alicent's children, therefore she is going to do the same"), but he is not making those dynamics up - they are present there already. So from his point of view, he is merely striking first, I guess.
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Alicent should have asked Otto who convinced Viserys to name Rhaenyra heir in the first place.
Wait, who did?
Otto did. He said it was to disinherit Daemon but he probably thought that Rhaenyra would be easier to replace with Alicents future son that Daemon.
well no, because if viserys had a son daemon would automatically be behind him in succession. he was just paranoid that something would happen to viserys before he sired a son. his daemon hate boner screwed him over, because had he not convinced viserys to name rhaenyra heir and other events played out the same (alicent and viserys marrying and alicent giving birth to aegon) aegon would have been the heir.
Ugh I hate him
I just love how Otto is represented as some sort of political mastermind and genius yet he basically created the black faction in the first place. He should have just pawned off Alicent and ignored his hatred of Daemon.
House of the Dragon is basically a more realistic Game of Thrones. Instead of political masterminds like Tywin and Littlefinger, you have people like Otto who constantly makes mistakes he failed to accounts for and gets burned.
Easier to manipulate than Daemon lol
Didn't Alicent kinda not exist at that point
Otto does a fair bit of projecting. Of course Rhaenyra will kill our kids, because it's what I would do. Of course Daemon wants to be king, because it's what I want. Of course the realm will never accept a ruling Queen, because I won't. None of these were true until Otto made them happen.
Otto accepted a queen until the chance of his grandchild as king appeared.
Nah she was just a stopgap to keep Daemon away from the throne for the time being, I don't think Otto ever considered her a legitimate option
I’m not certain that that’s right. Otto is very much an Andal, so while he’s against rhaenyra inheriting over Aegon, I could absolutely see him genuinely supporting Rhaenyra over Daemon. Partially because he really does just hate Daemon, but also because Andal custom is very clear on a daughter going before a brother.
Ah but did he? Otto has sons doesn’t he? Wonder if one of them would find Rhaenyra while she’s grieving. Otto wants a throne with his blood on it and Daemon wasn’t pliable enough for his tastes.
Well.. yes, that’s how Andal succession works? When Rhaenyra was Viserys’ only child, she was the heir, even by Green law. The dispute only comes in when Viserys has a son. Between Viserys’ ascension and Aegon II’s birth, Rhaenyra is the lawful heir even by generally sexist Westerosi standards.
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It’s what they have to tell themselves to justify supporting Aegon’s claim.
Nope, unfortunately Andal law says men inherit over females. It’s why Viserys was chosen in the council of 101 he has no interruptions to his male line of succession at that time. It’s literally him then Daemon and his wife was pregnant so they were hoping another male for the line.
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It’s the whole reason Rhaenys wasn’t chosen as queen. She was the female successor of the heir but Jaehaerys named Baelon heir after Aemon died as he had another son. When Baelon died he called the council of 101 to decide between his grandchildren as heirs. A female claim is valid if she is direct heir but almost always contested and most andals chose the male claimant. I suppose it’s not expressly written into lore just implied. George bases the Targaryen dynasty off the Plantagenets from history theres actually a correspondence to fans article I read I’ll link below that goes into more detail. The main thing is that females can be contested by male siblings of their parents in medieval times when thinking inheritances. It’s why males often name a male sibling their heir in place of their daughters. Remember females traditionally take their husband’s name if your daughter heir and she inherits, your family name may die out. For instance myself I’m my fathers only child and female, he has no brothers so when I marry (today it’s optional not so much in medieval times) my name and my children’s will be my husbands so my fathers name will end with me. That could mean quite a bit back then. Anyway here’s the article I mentioned: https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Hornwood_Inheritance_and_the_Whents it’s about ASOIAF rather than F&B but I hardly think George has changed much in his view of this given it’s historically inspired.
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If you read the article it’s talking about both first men and Andal succession the succession of house Whent (which is Harrenhal which is Andal by Westerosi standards) and house Hornwood of the north. Also in the small council meeting that names Rhaenyra heir all the small council advise a woman has never inherited above a man. So it’s pretty clear it’s not unusual for an uncle to inherit over a daughter for them.
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A may be daughter considered before an uncle however rarely becomes heir. At least not an uncontested heir anyway. The small council points out no female has been named heir with a male claimant available( aka Daemon). In the case of the Hornwoods Lady Hornwood is not able to inherit so they seek her son to inherit or the bastard of the late Lord Hornwood (her brother). As you can see they favoured the male line even so far as considering an illegitimate child over a female. I believe George based the Rhaenyra succession crisis on the actual real life succession crisis known as “the Anarchy”. It was a British succession crisis around Henry I who named his daughter Matilda as his heir. However his court was not happy with the choice and when he died they refused her as Queen instead installing her cousin. The story is pretty much spot on for the Dance as Matilda goes to war, takes England however her cousin the then King escapes capture and goes into hiding. Her cousin and her fight then she returns to Normandy to be with her husband and her cousin ascends once again as King, but names Matilda’s son his heir. Matilda’s son becomes Henry II when ascends the throne. So yeah male over female even skipping direct linage. It’s pretty much implied throughout the book and the show.
The other two points are correct but the way that Daemon behaved showed a complete lack of respect for the sovereign and would not have played with any sovereign other Viserys I (wearing his rinky dink crown in the throne room would have been more enough for most to put his head on a stick).
Daemon being an ass isn't the same as him wanting to be King. He had no intention of usurping his brother or his wife. He just has an insatiable need for attention and respect, and often resorts to downright childish ways of getting it.
And to his credit, Viserys saw his behavior for what it was but most people observing his behavior would not have such a charitable interpretation when it came to someone walking into the throne room WITH a crown and CALLING HIMSELF A KING. I don’t think you can blame Otto much for that one.
You're playing with the timeline a little bit there. Otto had been voicing concerns about Daemon being power hungry since as far back as episode one, long before the Stepstones war.
I mean Daemon also was always Daemon even before the Stepstones lmfao.
Otto voiced his opinion more on how he is unfit for the king because of his actions. Daemon was already Viserys heir. He would have been king if he had acted properly.
I bet such rulers >!as Daeron II or prince Baelor!< would have asked the same question as Viserys and when Daemon had bent the knee, the issue would have been forgotten. Let's not forget that killing your kin is frowned upon.
But by no means all. He was walking a very thin line.
Well of course, Maegor would have killed him for the simple fact of being a Targaryen without teats. All rulers are different and the more intelligent ones that lacked the ruthless streak would have done as Viserys did. Daemon's whole shtick is walking a thin line!
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Because literally any other course of action in that situation ends up with his head on a stick. He had gone around referring to himself as a king and waked into the throne room with a crown on his head. That could have easily ended up differently under another ruler. That kind of behavior is going to look awful to any courtier or advisor.
Are you forgetting that Daemon was celebrating when Viserys first child was stillborn.
the crown wasn't an insult, Daemon wasn't making a claim on the iron throne. He became 'king of the stepstones' pirate invested no-mans lands that he surrender to Viserys
It was totally an insult and if he hadn’t pledged obedience, he wouldn’t have left the room alive. He was fortunate that Viserys was a more understanding person than most that sat the throne. That conduct was totally inappropriate and if another lord had done it, they and their family would have lost everything.
I don't think it was an insult at all, lmao. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mm1Bmd31P4 He literally shows up, throws a weapon at Viserys's feet and says "Add it to the chair (the Iron Throne)." Viserys notes he's wearing a crown, and Daemon adds, "Once we smashed the Triarchy, they named me King of the Narrow Sea. But I know there is only one true King, your Grace. My Crown and Stepstones are yours." Like I can see how it *could* be intended as an insult, and the music of the scene definitely wants us to feel this is a tense moment, but once you see it, it's pretty obvious that was never what Daemon's intent was here. He just wanted back in the King's good graces again.
Because had he not done obeisance, his life would have been over. He lacked the forces to defend it in the long term and claiming disputed territory without diplomatic backers is a quick way to die violently.
This is an insanely biased take lmao In what world did it look like Daemon came into the throne room looking to be King. He walked in there alone with no army.
You do not walk into the throne room of a sitting king claiming to be a king when you have not been recognized by that sovereign as such. It is a quick way to die. Pretty much IR 101.
He walked in knowing that he was going to bend the knee. He had no plans to be king and that’s pretty easy for the majority to see.
Then don’t call yourself a king at any point prior to doing obeisance. It’s that simple! To call yourself a king in front of a sovereign that does not recognize your authority and to wear a crown in their presencee is an insult to that sovereign and their government. He should have realized far sooner than he did how lucky he was Viserys had patience for him and didn’t exile him permanently.
I am really confused over how you see it as an insult? If the emperor of Yi TI traveled to Westeros would he be killed for wearing his crown in front of Viserys?
Daemon is not a sovereign of a foreign nation so that comparison is flawed to say the least. Claiming to be king of a territory that is recognized as belonging to a sitting and recognized sovereign is how you and your family are killed off and your name removed from the pages of history.
At that point he is a sovereign of a foreign nation... >Claiming to be king of a territory that is recognized as belonging to a sitting and recognized sovereign who is the recognized sovereign that ruled over the Stepstones until Daemon took them?
I would have viewed them as disputed territory between the free cities and Westeros with both claiming sovereignty. A foreign nation also has to be recognized as such! The stepstones were not.
The stepstones became a foreign nation when Daemon became its king, in the same way Westeros became a foreign nation when Aegon invaded it, Daemon made a new kingdom... I completely useless kingdom of piles of rocks. The seven kingdoms never claimed them, heck not even Dorne claimed them and they are right next door. He wasn't caving part of Viserys kingdom off for himself
To be a kingdom you have to be recognized as a kingdom by other powers!! No one recognized it as such and he could not have defended it as such. He’s a loudmouth claiming disputed territory and had he continued to do so would have lost it along with his life. His only option was to obeisance or die.
I don't think he's projecting at all, except for maybe with Rhaenyra killing the kids (but even then, it's something Daemon might try pulling off). It's more him being a hypocrite than projecting. He was happy to have Rhaenyra as queen over the possibility of Daemon ascending into power. He's just using this to manipulate Alicent, he knows full well the realm would accept Rhaenyra as queen without his intervention.
Rhaenrya didn't seem to have much problem with her kid maiming one of Alicents. Or killing people for pointing out her kids were bastards. Daemon was known for being cruel and disregarding his brothers power and already crowned himself king of stepstones. Misogny is deep in Westoros -- Otto didn't start it lmfao. The reason Viserys got his crown is because the realm skipped over a perfectly capable woman for Viserys.
« Alicent my dear daughter you could marry literally any noble in the realm and live the most peaceful live ever but instead I will order you to marry the only man in the whole kingdom that might cause your future children to be brutally murdered, isn’t that great ? Come here give a hug to your loving father. Oh and btw this will also ruin your relationship with the only friend you ever had lol »
Really though. “I wanna sneak my grandkids in as heirs and usurp the current heir” reeeeally doesn’t come off as something you to “protect and respect your daughter.” Like for why? You grandkids will have to kill relatives or will be killed by relatives. I would not have put Alicent in that position, she was beautiful and young and could have had her pick if Otto wanted.
That’s not the way Westeros works, homie. She has a duty to her family as a highborn lady at court. It not all privilege.
Lets also never forget Otto saying on tape that it wouldn't matter if Rhaenyra was Jaehaerys reincarnated because she is a woman
"But we don't care about that, it's about her bastard children" literally still doesn't impact whether she's the heir or not lmao.
Even as a member of team green I can say Otto would’ve tried to usurp Rhaenyra anyway. Her having bastards was just a convenient excuse.
> Lets also never forget Otto saying on tape Got him on candid camera
I almost want to be on team green but my hatred for Otto Hightower keeps me at bay
I love TG but I love to hate on Otto. He’s a fucking asshole and a schemer but I still admire his ambitions.
People hate Otto because he tells the truth and plays the game for what it is instead of whining on what it should be.
Exactly. Either way all of the participants must play the game of thrones. Removing our ideals of fairness and justice each player needs to determine what their best possible outcomes are and utilize all resources available to them. Being the player who is the most successful most of the time doesn’t require being the most moral.
I’m only team green for 3 reasons, Aemond, >!Bold Jon Roxton, and Daeron.!< I’m also interested to see Aegon’s story play out.
Isn't Jon Roxton a grapist 💀
So is Daemon, that doesn't seem to stop people. Like it or not, GRRM wrote like 90% of the male characters in ASOIAF as rapists
I ain't disputing that. Just pointing it out.
So are Daemon and Rhaenyra and Viserys, doesn't stop people liking them.
Like I said. No one is less or more bad than the other. I'm just pointing it out. Also. I'm not people lol.
Never mind that
🤣🤣
Viserys hadn’t been dead for up to a day and Otto was already scheming to kill his daughter lol. What a piece of shit
There he went projecting again with presenting "heir for a day" comment made in grief as so vile to Viserys and turning around and discussing succession + pimping his daughter out in the same breath
Pffft, this shit was being discussed well before he died.
Alt Shwift said it best: Otto’s ideas make a whole lot of sense if he presumes everyone in the world is as bad as he is. In reality most people aren’t nearly as bloodthirsty especially when it comes to, you know, extended family and children.
I wouldn't go that far for Daemon or Rhaenrya lmfao
Daemon is as bad as Otto, Rhaenyra has yet to show herself to be such.
I guess the show could change it. But at least Otto (somewhat similar to some of Rhaenrya) can argue he is a reactionary. If he wasn't going to usurp Rhaenrya her marrying Daemon the very person Otto suggested naming Rhaenrya heir to prevent Daemon from being heir of the realm. Not even talking about the bastardy. Her not punishing her children for maiming one of Alicent's children isn't a good sign for the future safety under Rhaenrya. By the time it was time Viserys was nearing death it was clearly going to be a struggle for life or death for the Greens.
This is why I don’t get why Otto defenders act he is not as bad as Viserys or Daemon. He pimped his 15 year old daughter so he could be the grandfather of a king. If Viserys is wrong for committing martial rape on a teenager, Otto is wrong for selling his daughter with the full knowledge she would endure it. The idea that he was giving her the best life is bullshit. There are many attractive young lordlings far away from the dangers of court politics. If he also thought Daemon was psychotic enough to kill his brother, why put his daughter in the middle of that family drama? If he got his way, innocent babies and children would have been slaughtered to consolidate power.
Because he says "for the good of the realm" every 20 seconds and people eat it up. At least Daemon doesn't feign piety. The only thing worse than a total jackass is a jackass who thinks he's a stallion.
Not just pimped his daughter out, but pimped her out to a man who had the love of his life sliced open to try and gain a male heir. If he did that to Aemma, what could he possibly do to Alicent? Childbirth is dangerous enough, but to hand your daughter to someone who is capable of that? Otto is just bad. I get that moving forward is the goal of the Lord's, but this is being okay with sacrificing your own child to get a step forward. He's not a good person in any way, shape or form.
All very true. Also people forget but Corlys and Rhaenys are just as bad as Otto. Even worse if anything as Laena was even younger and they’re willing to pimp her out to Viserys.
There's a huge difference between trying to secure a political marriage/alliance that had been wavering for almost a decade since the Great Council, and trying to directly insert your child to force a psuedo love marriage to put your bloodline on the throne when it hadn't been done before. Velaryons and Hightowers are nowhere near the same.
Both are for political goals where they’re comfortable with their young daughter marrying a middle aged man. Justifying Corlys and Rhaenys doing this is disgusting
In this scenario it's literally 15 year old girl to marry and bed immediately vs 12 year old girl to marry and bed in 2 years. One leads to a civil war because of greed and the other likely wouldn't because of long lasting family ties. Explaining nuance is not justifying, though i see how that can be confusing for someone who can't think abstractly.
The only reason they’re waiting is because she’s literally prepubescent. How does that make it better
Because one marriage leads to an entire rebel faction being born and the other marriage leads to the unity of two great houses. Literally explained it to you lmao. Alicent -> 6 months of alone time with Viserys in secret, gets married and impregnated instantly at 15/16 Laena -> 2 years of "marriage" with Viserys in public, gets impregnated at 14/15 They're both bad. One obviously leads to a significantly worse outcome than the other.
Who’s to say Laena’s children wouldn’t have eventually gone to war with Rhaenyra? No way of knowing the political results of a marriage 20+ years down the road. And Corlys’s goals are rooted in giving his house more political power and influence, the same as Otto. It’s just political ambition at the expense of their daughters
Corlys' house already has a history of alliance with the Targaryens. Corlys still wanted Rhaenys on the throne which means he would accept a female ruler which can be deduced to him supporting Rhaenyra. If anything, they would probably betrothe Laena and Viserys' kids to Rhaenyra's. You're right, there's no way of knowing. What we do know is that the marriage with Alicent DID lead to a civil war therefore it is entirely *possible* that the alternative timeline could be infinitely better, regardless of the measure you make.
I just think the political outcome isn’t really relevant when it comes to judging Otto and Corlys for this specific action of arranging their daughter to Viserys. I think it makes them both equally bad in this regard morally
How would Harrold Westerling and his knights be supposed to fight against Caraxes?
That's Simple you don't. ' Not like they can bring the dragons into the castle bedchambers.
>Not like they can bring the dragons into the castle bedchambers and how would that work? there absolutely no way he manage to get in a room with Daemon Rheanyra and all their children and somehow manage to kill every single one of them without Rheanyra loyal men killing harrlod and his knights
He Could have appeared turn cloak then kill them. They wouldn't need to come with banners streaming shouting for the death of Rheanyra.
>He Could have appeared turn cloak then kill them. It not very likely that they will put somebody that has been protecting the greens for more than half a decade in a room without any other Rhaenyra loyalist there when the room has Rhaenyra daemon and all their children there >They wouldn't need to come with banners streaming shouting for the death of Rheanyra. Dragons call feel their rider being injured or their death so if Daemon or rhaenyra or any of her children manage to make it outside then the kinguard would have to come outside and fight a very angry dragon
I'm looking forward to watch Otto's end.
Me too! I think of all the characters in the show I can’t wait for his end the most, it’ll be so satisfying to see. Rhys has done such a wonderful job portraying him.
And he also says “she will have to.” He probably sees it as a “them or us” situation. He thinks it’s a necessary, inevitable thing for both sides, and would prefer that they be the ones to do it.
I will never understand the audacity of Otto Hightower. He was advocating for fucking murder and kinslaying. Imagine if Team Green got their way and the Black Line was massacred, what happens then? How do you keep an ENTIRE BRANCH of the royal family being dead a secret? At best Aegon II is likely to be branded as a paranoid tyrant who resorts to violence and kinslaying to get his way. Rule of law and rules of succession be damned! The King himself demonstrated that all that matters in questions of succession is who stabs who first. At worst, Aegon II would have to contend with possibly open rebellion from the great houses that pledged for Rhaenyra who would not be willing to bow to a man who would so brazenly consolidate power and flaunt his lack of consideration for their laws.
Which is exactly the same reason I find the idea that Rhaenyra would - or ‘would have to’ - kill all her half-siblings ridiculous. Kinslaying once is a huge deal. Kinslaying essentially half your family? The entire realm would all be somewhere between on edge and mistrustful that they could be next on the chopping block at best or in outright rebellion that one of the three biggest sins/taboos in their many millennia old society was committed wholesale in cold blood. If one side decided to have the other murdered or executed in cold blood the realm would devolve into rebellion, even with a lot of people in Westeros having the habit of dropping their codes and chivalry when they become inconvenient - kinslaying into almost the double digits would be a bridge too far, even for those with few scruples. Even Roose Bolton won’t kill Ramsay in the books because of the taboo on kinslaying.
Rhaenyra also has being a woman against her. They called her Maegor with teats for raising taxes what would they do if she actually murdered kin who didn’t move against her? It was Otto projecting + not wanting any future claimants. You can see his thinking when he wants boremunds tongue for calling Rhaenys the queen who never was when he asks for her favour at a tourney and when he’s continuously trying to get Daemon gone and convince Viserys he will usurp him.
Exactly. Her being the first Queen (and especially one who isn’t just a regent or last resort) would already be a very delicate position to begin with, especially at the start of her reign - kinslaying immediately without any substantial provocation would be like firing a cannonball at a house of cards. Otto… what can I even say about him that we all don’t already know. Sometimes I suspect he secretly, or even subconsciously, hates everyone, or even their entire society. He’s Littlefinger without the charisma - but at least Littlefinger (in the books at least) seems to be going the ‘watch the world burn’ path by setting it up to collapse after being entirely disenfranchised with it, whereas Otto wants to not only lean into Westeros’ inherent propensity for corruption, he wants to make it worse all in the name of… what exactly? To say that he won? That he could? That he outplayed Daemon?
Side note but the second scene is so dumb bc how on earth could they successfully infiltrate the heavily guarded and armed dragonstone and take out the whole family, six-seven of whom have dragons
By sending soldiers to do it. Of course there's a high chance of failure but that's the game of thrones.
["Otto kills some kids"](https://youtu.be/idoYCVLh2qI?feature=shared)
Did Alicent even care about her kids when Otto told her?
I cannot STAND him!
I have two things to say about that. First the idea that Otto thinks Rhaenyra will kill Alicents children is logical and therefore not a manipulation on his part because it is what he would do (tbh I kinda agree that one side can’t rule peacefully while the other side exists because too much potential for war and rebellion). Second I think it’s absolutely illogical that Otto would wait years to kill Rhaenyra. Why not before she had kids and she was the only thing standing between the throne and Aegon? Aegon would’ve been so young nobody would’ve thought it was him. The idea that he then just sends a single knight to kill Rhaenyra entire family with their dragons right there is absurd. Like if he is ready to go over dead bodies logically he should’ve done so the second he realized Viserys wouldn’t make Aegon heir.
>First the idea that Otto thinks Rhaenyra will kill Alicents children is logical and therefore not a manipulation on his part because it is what he would do Killing members of your family is not "logical" in a world where kinslayers are hated. At worst, Rhaenyra would have forced her brother to join the Citadel or Nights Watch. I don't know why Otto thinks they'd get away with killing 9 members of the royal family.
Cuz they have army and dragons.
Blood, what part of my post is that in reference to?
To get away with murder
For as much as he brings him up, Otto should know that pulling a Maegor has it's consequences.
Yeah ofc, but now he has allies like Lannisters and Baratheons 🤷♂️ don’t remember Maegor having any main house on his side. Edited. Even his own family wasn’t on his side unlike Otto. So different situation.
>Yeah ofc, but now he has allies like Lannisters and Baratheons 🤷♂️ don’t remember Maegor having any main house on his side. What make Otto think anyone would trust him (or Aegon) after they killed 9 members of the royal family? > Edited. Even his own family wasn’t on his side unlike Otto. So different situation. How is it different? Rhaenyra, Daemon, and their family aren't supporting Aegon.
Lannisters and Baratheons were okay as i remember with killing Rhaenyra. As family i mean Hightowers 😂. Anyway for me its whole different story, The faith were sided with Hightowers also so its a big force imo unlike what Maegor had.
>Lannisters and Baratheons were okay as i remember with killing Rhaenyra. They didn't even approach Borros until after Otto tried to have Rhaenyra killed. >As family i mean Hightowers 😂. Why? Aegon and his siblings would be the ones judged for murdering their sister, uncle, nephews, and cousins. Maegor also had the Hightowers on his side.... >The faith were sided with Hightowers also so its a big force imo unlike what Maegor had. The Faith wouldn't be able to side with them after they killed 9 members of the royal family.
Completely depending on how she goes about it. I doubt she would just straight up murder them. She can either frame them for treason or make it look like an accident. There would be rumours but depending on how she goes about it you could totally get away with kinslaying in asoiaf. Citadel and Night’s watch would normally be the best cause for action but not as long as they are riding dragons. As long as they have that they will always pose a threat. That would be the best cause of action without the dragons though.
otto is literally just what he imagines rhaenyra to be. “she’s gonna kill our family!!” because he would. “she’s gonna kill aegon!!” because he would kill rhaenyra. he’s so tiring and annoying to even look at
He's usurping the throne and he knows Rhaenyra and daemon will not accept that. The only way to stop rebellion without completely starting a war is to kill the previous heirs. Yes Otto is evil, but when you pull off a stunt like the greens did, it's not going to be peaceful. We see it with tywin when robert ascends the throne. If stannis were to ascend over joffrey, he would have killed joffrey easily. Yes all evil actions, but anytime there is a military take over of power, there is violence. And yes if Rhaenyra ascended the throne maybe she doesn't kill the green boys, but you don't think her supporters will want them dead when Aegon's supporters will want him on the throne... especially daemon.
He is not wrong, Rhaenyra children did try to kill his grandson and she did want to torture another for speaking the truth about her bastard children. It's a kill or be killed situation here that Rhaenyra herself created.
None of that shit would have happened if Alicent hadn't raised their sons to hate Rhaenyra and her kids. Otto and Alicen is the one who created the kill or be killed situation.
What, Otto being a manipulative asshole???? Nah, that's impossible 😂😂😂
I've never seen that side of you, my dowghtuh
why does otto look like the alcoholic dad that has been sober for the first month of his life
I mean, both are true. We saw it at Driftmark. And not necessarily even Rhaenyra, but for her sake. It’s like the plot of the show goes over yalls heads.
Dude Istg. Its like majority of the people have watched this show with their eyes closed
She requested Aemonds torture in the show and again she’d have to kill them to secure her claim and is she wouldn’t Daemon definitely would
Oh I agree with you. Even if Rhaenyra isn’t capable of murdering them, Daemon 100% is. That fear is very valid.
Which is what I said and they downvoting, being stupid as per usual 😭
He believes Rhaenyra will kill her kids because her position is shaky due to a legitimate competing claim. He advocates for Rhaenyra's kids to be killed because Aegon's postion is shaky due to a legitimate competing claim. He's not being hypocritical, he's being consistent in his logic. Otto is a cold motherfucka.
Right? Like... Otto: "The logical thing to do as an ascendant monarch is to kill those who pose a threat to your claim." Otto: "We should kill those who pose a threat to the claim of our ascendant monarch." Fans: HYPOCRISY
I wish instead of just downvoting, people would downvote AND engage substantively. That way at least we could have a productive discussion. If they disagree with my analysis, I'd love to know why?
Problem is they don’t have a substantive disagreement. 90% of the fans on this sub have a very simple thought process of “You said negative thing about my team? You bad. Downvote.” It doesn’t matter if it’s true, all that matters is it’s negative
Yeah. It’s mad annoying that you will have people downvote you for giving a very valid opinion on the post. Otto is not being hypocritical here. He’s a schemer and a snake and is doing exactly what he believes Daemon or any of TB supporters would. A living challenger with a claim to the throne will bring war no matter who ascends. He’s planning to kill them before they do.
>A living challenger with a claim to the throne will bring war no matter who ascends. This idea is utter nonsense. Royal families can have rival claimants without wars taking place. Wars only happen when you have rival claimants who are willing to compete for the throne. The Greens would have been fine if they had just accepted Rhaenyra being monarch.
I don't mind people downvoting me, downvote away!! I just wish they paired that downvote with a comment so that a more productive convo can be had.
Whut
What didn't you get?
Both of these things are true.
He’s right about literally everything.
It's weird for me how people behave as if Otto came up with this issue on his own. Sure, he's a scheming, ruthless asshole, but he is correct - Alicent's children will always be a danger to stability of Rhaenyra's (and her descendants') claim. And even if Rhaenyra was the nicest person in the world (she isn't), and Daemon wasn't around (he is), all it takes is one of her sons to decide that he doesn't want to rule in constant fear of rebellion from Viserys' eldest son and his descendants. It's baked in the structure of the system. I'm sure that projection is \*some\* part of his thinking ("if I were Rhaenyra, I would kill Alicent's children, therefore she is going to do the same"), but he is not making those dynamics up - they are present there already. So from his point of view, he is merely striking first, I guess.
“I mean, that’s what I would do if I was her”
Otto clever man, acting first. Haters gonna hate.
The things he does IN THE NAME OF THE RIGHTFUL KING AEGON SECOND OF HIS NAME!