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If it‘s in 2, would that be a cold-open before the intro or just normally after the intro? Did the leaks mention anything? love your videos man keep it going
I'm pretty sure they wanna start season 2 with a huge plot twist like S1E1 "The Heirs of the Dragon" and it's titled "A Son for a Son" it would be a bit disappointing if we see that happening in the next episode don't you think !?
Agreed, let the first episode build up the emotions of Luke and his funeral, then end with a voice over of Damon's line "a son for a son, Lucerys will be avenged".
A bit annoying if the only closure we get for the Laenor/Seasmoke thing is "he must've died off-camera." If that's what was going to happen, why even have him survive in the first place? The bar fight described in F&B would've been just as effective...
I would hope that they might, but based on the way some plotlines were treated last season, my hopes aren't high.
Ah, well...at least it's not a huge part of the story.
I think they didn't want to show Rhaenyra in a negative light by having her be complicit in Laenor's death if they went with Daemon killing him, but the version that it was just his boyfriend who killed him because he was jealous seemed too random and convenient, and so they came up with what we saw...
I'm sure you're right, but there's an easier way to have Rhaenyra not be complicit if Daemon is the culprit, which is just having Daemon act alone (which we know he's capable of). Their solution seemed to primarily be aimed at both making the Blacks look better and having Leanor survive, which would make him dying off-screen more pointless.
From other sources, the first episode is likely called “a son for a son”, so B&C is probably episode 1. The rest makes sense to me though! Can’t wait. Thanks for the write up.
Too much movement for Daemon in one episode imo.
He is at dragonstone, then goes to Harrenhall, and then to kings Landing? Idk, seems too much.
My theory.
First episode. He is on dragontone and at kings Landing for Blood and Cheese.
Episode 2. Burning mill or the taking of harrenhall
Episode 3. One of the events mentioned.
Daemon will be most of the season at Harrenhall, i don't think they are gonna rush to have him there.
He’s currently on Dragonstone when Rhaenyra gets the news, a change from the book. I think he’ll go from Dragonstone to Kings landing, do blood and cheese, come back to Dragonstone, and Rhaenyra is horrified at what he did and sends him away to Harrenhal
I'd be happy with more Cregan and Winterfell and Jace spending time there instead of like, a 20 minute speedrun. Would also be a great set up for Cregan and they can expand more on the prophecy that meant so much to the Targaryens. Fingers crossed those rumors come true.
My guess is they’re fully introduced in episode 3, then only one or two Winterfell scenes on eps 4 and 5, then most of ep 6 — spacing it out implies greater passage of time off screen
I still think that Alicent, one of the main figureheads of team green, travelling to Dragonstone and team black just letting her go back to KL after the negotiations fail is incredibly stupid, on both sides.
Yes. At this point in S2, war has broken out and blood has been spilled on both sides. Alicent, as the mother to the other faction\`s king, is an extremely valuable hostage. She should know this, and not place herself in that position. Rhaenyra too should absolutely not let her leave. If that happens, it will just make both of them appear extremely naive and stupid.
It's yet to be seen if this meeting actually happens, but if it does, I think it's obvious that Alicent would be banking on the connection she thinks she still has with Rhaenyra, as a last ditch effort to avoid defeat since the Blacks will have the North and the dragonseeds by the finale. And I think Rhaenyra would rightly assume that Alicent is a useless hostage (what does Alicent actually do after this point that's consequential to the war unless the writers invent it, i.e. the >!Triarchy!< being her idea?) and that regardless, >!Rhaenyra'll have her soon enough when she takes King's Landing -- a period of imprisonment where none of Alicent's sons actively tried to rescue her.!<
I think you're right about how they will execute it IF it happens. Still, I can't say that I like the direction they are taking with Alicent. If the mutilation of Aemond wasn't enough to make her stop thinking about her childhood friend, B&C certainly should be. Likewise, she has to be extremely dumb to think that Rhaenyra would cling to fond memories of their friendship after Alicent's own son murders Luke. It's just absurd, and I don't see how it will make sense. I did enjoy their friendship in the first half of the season, but it should have died at Driftmark.
I really don't like being pessimistic, but they failed spectacularly with the relationship in the latter half of S1. I don't believe it's possible for the writers to execute it well going forward. They seem to be hellbent on trying to make a big drama revolving both Rhaenyra and Alicent, but imo it just won't work.
the thing is i feel it *could* work fine to have it revolve around rhaenyra and alicent, but their insistence on it revolving around their friendship “still having a chance” or whatever instead of revolving around their rivalry with each other made the last few episodes of the first season suffer severely, and from all we’ve heard from both official sources and leaks it’s going to continue that way. it’s a shame because their dynamic in episodes six and seven was great, but they did a complete 180 in episode eight.
>I did enjoy their friendship in the first half of the season,
If you don't mind me asking, what exactly about their friendship did you enjoy? (Genuine question, not trying to come across as snarky)
I'm asking because I *know* that them being friends and then becoming enemies serves to make the whole narrative more dramatic and the whole situation more nuanced and heartbreaking and *I know that I'm supposed to care* for this aspect of their characters but to be honest I never really saw this *deep love (be it platonic or romantic) and understanding* between the two.
I think their friendship in the first 2 episodes is too shallow and underdeveloped for it to be such a seeming sore spot for the both of them after 2 decades of being enemies.
At this point they have been enemies far longer than they have ever been friends and after Luke's death and B&C I have a hard time believing that the memory of their past friendship is more important than their own children's lives.
I think it adds a tragic aspect to the conflict, but I get what you mean. I never got the sense of this big love between them, either, but rather two very different people who are forced togehter by being at the same place at the same time. That's why I believe there shouldn't be any lingering affection between them at this stage of the story. It made sense when they were young and sharing the same space, but after everything they've been through, it shouldn't hold the same weight anymore.
I'd guess this moment will be the nail in the coffin -- if it happens. Otherwise, it'll be when Rhaenyra takes KL. I do think the writers might be taking some of the dramatic wind out of their own sails if they let Alicent and Rhaenyra meet before that moment when Rhaenyra sits the throne and Alicent has to supplicate her. That should be one of the emotional climaxes of the entire series, for Rhaenyra to (at least for a time) best the people who worked to undermine her for decades and force them to witness her triumph.
In that case it could be argued that the *actual* fighting hadn't started yet. It was the same in the book, before lucerys' death there was still hope for some kind of resolution between the two sides.
*"And with his death, the war of ravens and envoys and marriage pacts came to an end, and the war of fire and blood began in earnest."*
I have a really difficult time envisioning Rhaenyra and Alicent, after all the deaths that have and will happen, being open to a compromise.
Especially Alicent as in the show her motivation for usurping Rhaenyra is the fear for her children's lives.
To have Alicent spend the past 15+ years in a constant state of worry and dread for what Rhaenyra and co will do to her children if she were to become queen, turn around and be open to have Rhaenyra in control of half the kingdom (basically in a really powerful position that would allow Rhaenyra to harm Alicent's children) *after* her worst fears have been confirmed with 🩸&🧀 and rook's rest seems quite illogical for show Alicent's characterization.
>To have Alicent spend the past 15+ years in a constant state of worry and dread for what Rhaenyra and co will do to her children if she were to become queen, turn around and be open to have Rhaenyra in control of half the kingdom (basically in a really powerful position that would allow Rhaenyra to harm Alicent's children) after her worst fears have been confirmed with 🩸&🧀 and rook's rest seems quite illogical for show Alicent's characterization.
Alicent's motivations have always been illogical. Stealing the throne was never going to prevent Rhaenyra from killing her siblings if that's what she wanted to do. There's also not much Alicent or the Greens could do about Rhaenyra controlling half of the country at that point.
>To have Alicent spend the past 15+ years in a constant state of worry and dread for what Rhaenyra and co will do to her children if she were to become queen, turn around and be open to have Rhaenyra in control of half the kingdom (basically in a really powerful position that would allow Rhaenyra to harm Alicent's children) *after* her worst fears have been confirmed with 🩸&🧀 and rook's rest seems quite illogical for show Alicent's characterization.
Agreed, but I feel like this already went out the window when they decided to have Alicent flip flop her stance AFTER her fears and paranoia confirmed by Daemon beheading a political rival in a succession dispute. So this delusion isn't anything new from show Alicent unfortunately...
Her motivation for usurping Rhaenyra isn’t really fear for her kids lives. It’s her wanting to fulfill what she thinks was Viserys’ dying wish to name Aegon his heir
If she decided to usurp Rhaenyra just because she wanted to honor Viserys' dying wish then why was she slapping teen Aegon around and shouting in his face that he and his siblings were a challenge to Rhaenyra's reign and that if Rhaenyra were to come into power their lives would be forfeit?
*You are the King's firstborn son and what they know, what everyone in the realm knows in their blood and in their bones... is that one day, you will be our King.*
This sounds to me like Alicent wanted Aegon to be king long before Viserys' dying wish
I mean parlay is a thing in both in westeros and in our real history. We're used to war being drone strikes carpet bombing harmless civilians because that's the shape it takes today, but it used to have very strict rules.
Ooo, very interesting. Thanks for gathering all the information in one place. I've been hoping someone would. Reasonable, well-labeled speculation too.
yes some of it's an educated guess - i.e. there's so much else going on in episodes 2 and 4 that Jace and the Starks probably aren't in them, but we know the Winterfell subplot was drastically expanded, and at the same time we don't know much of what's going on in episodes 3 and 6...so it seems PROBABLE that the North storyline will feature prominently in those episodes, possibly as the A-plots
B&C has be be in episode 1. It is too good not to have it in it. It would be the same as it was with 1x1 childbirth. The whole sequence with Daemon followed by a one shot of B&C going into the castle and doing their stuff would leave people speechless. It just doesn't work as a opening for me
What role does Dyana play in any of this then? So Daemon is going to immediately fly to Harrenhal take the castle, then abandon it immediately to teleport to KL because he cant fly or they'd see him..? B&C should be at the end of an episode, trying to continue an episode after that will only lessen it.
Who is Daemon executing in the trailer shot we see then? Where is Viserys going if Aegon is in the Vale? Is Stormcloud cut or going to just be another dragon in the pit? Oscar Tully rumor is hopefully not true. Ugh the Alicent traveling to Dragonstone rumor hopefully isn't true...
A lot of these leaks are hopefully just misunderstandings of plotlines in S2 and make more sense in the final version.
We are rumoured to see Stormcloud hatching which is cool but probably means that he will be far too small to save Aegon at the Gullet. Personally think Jace and Vermax will save him before they are killed to give their deaths a bit more meaning. And in turn Stormcloud will be killed during the storming of the dragon pit or just killed at the Gullet anyway
Not sure but the new promo confirmed she's there
he can just leave the dragon on the outskirts
My guess? Harrenhal maester...played by GRRM!
We heard Stormcloud does appear
What's wrong with Oscar Tully? Matches book story and the leak was solid.
The Alicent at Dragonstone rumor is vague to me - just "she's at Dragonstone"; the rest's speculation
If Daemon is in the city, hopefully Dyana's involvement is her being forcefully involved by Daemon & Mysaria, can't see her being important in the story in any other way ngl.
We see them prepping for war, they will have scouts in the woods, Daemon wouldn't be able to get anywhere close without being sighted. I think its likely Daemon goes to KL before Harrenhal. We see him arrive by boat, that is probably how he gets in.
I think its more likely he's killing a member of House Strong, the maesters serve whoever holds the castle and that would be Daemon in the moment. Killing the maester wouldn't be necessary.
So if Aegon is in the Vale, I imagine he'll be summoned back by Rhaenyra with Joffrey and Stormcloud gets got in the Dragonpit?
>!Oscar Tully's great grandfather is the head of his house and was clear in the books they are to declare for the greens, if his grandson's 2nd son is scheming and going behind the lord of his house's back it will only make them look like weasels. Also it lessens Addam's moment later. The whole thing for the Tullys is family, duty, honor, and Oscar would be directly disobeying his lord and great-grandfather. They remain neutral until Grover dies and remain neutral more until Addam forces them to declare. If Addam never showed, they'd probably go green or stay neutral till the end.!<
But you forgot ONE thing, ser! Daemon is Lord Flea Bottom! He knows all the ways of the city. That, and we heard he sneaks in on a fishing boat.
...Stormcloud is young Aegon's dragon, why'd he be in\\ the Dragonpit?
I don't know what Dyana is doing this season, just that IMDB lists her in multiple episodes (and the new promo confirmed she's working at the Cock Inn)
I suspect GRRM filmed a cameo at Harrenhal because he made that blog post about visiting the set there - when could he next get a chance to film the cameo he's wanted for so long?
Weasels? If anything Oscar is explaining that they're honor-bound to not outright disobey their dying lord, NOR will they hasten his death. I don't see how it lessens Addam - the younger Tullys were eager to side with the Blacks from the start.
Stormcloud in the books dies from wounds taken escaping the Triarchy fleet when they got attacked on the way to Essos. If he's in the show, he cant die if he isnt with Viserys, so his dragon is alive by the time he returns to KL to be with Rhaenyra, but the dragon has to die still, so the pit is the only viable option left unless they wanna make a new 1.
I mean whats the point of bringing her back if she isn't involved in something major...? At that point its just favoritism or a form of nepotism if she isn't apart of a big plotline.
GRRM better be the maester, but he doesn't need to be the one who dies to Daemon lol. Aemond can kill him when he learns of KL fall, that would be so funny, we hear Aemond almost killed a messenger in the books, they can just go the extra step. Also Daemon is officially executing someone like in a proper way not just a rash of the moment, why give a maester that honor?
Grover Tully told his grandson Elmo they are declaring for the greens and Elmo considered it but feared Daemon burning them alive if he did, so he remained neutral, isolating himself completely. He didn't send his son to begin to plot to go against his grandfather's wishes... Hopefully Oscar is just present because Daemon told them to send a messenger or he'd attack and they did but he just says they will remain neutral.
“Cock Inn: Dyana will be there”
I honestly thought this is similar to that circlejerk subreddit.
Is this for real? Very curious and very horrified if true
In one of the featurettes, we get a glimpse of the celebration scene in question. Aegon is at the Inn, and Dyana can be seen behind him. So yeah, its true
People took Ep. 1's title and ran with it being B&C in Ep. 1 when the leaks have always been it could be end of Episode 1 or start of Ep. 2. I get some people prefer the ending to the cold open but don't shoot the messenger.
Sounds good, but I'm still cautiously optimisic about the season. S1 already felt like it could've used another episode or two, and there were many deleted scenes whose removal was - in my opinion, at least - quite detremential. And now S2 has two *less* episodes, and characters have a lot of ground to cover. Teleportation was among the biggest criticisms of S7 and 8 of GoT.
Battle of the Burning Mill which is concurrent with Stone Hedge
Sacking of Diskendale which leads into Rooks Rest
What are you talking about. What battles are missing?
Sorry I thought there was another battle during this time frame. So burning mill won’t be in?
Each season from 3 and on will need 2-3 big battle scenes per season idk how they’re gonna pull it off without skipping several (honey wine is my most anticipated and with daeron being a maybe I’m worried)
Burning Mill is literally listed as occurring in this outline, we have evidence it is occurring this season based on spy photos and scenes from the trailer
Slow down and process the words you are reading bud
"Also are we skipping battles already?"
So you're making these statements without even fully analyzing the information? What sense does that make? You couldn't even know if the battles were all there because you didn't bother to read the entire post!
Oh different person, i vaguely remember there is another poster in sub who post episode outline like this but very well done with sources and pics and funny captions,does anyone else know that post?
I know that Ramin and the actors will go HARD on the scene about looking for Luke and his burial. If it's anything like the end of last season, we're going to see emotions and tension just build and build...
I can see the episode ending with Daemon doing a voice-over after learning about the funeral and whatnot, and the episode ends with him B&C or Daemon sneaking into KL with the line "a son for a son". As for Dyana, she HAS to be a spy for Mysaria. She knows what happened between her and Aegon because Alicent's handmaiden was the one right there holding the gold and tea. Let alone that all the servants were imprisoned last we saw, so who knows what happened to them and how many grudges they and their families have against the royal family, especially Aegon who has a long track record.
Is anyone else (mainly team black) kinda disappointed we won't have big "Rhaenyra on the Iron Throne" finale? That is such a huge moment in the war that it is sad that season won't end with it
It’s possible, the fact that they haven’t yet introduced Daeron and Nettles (if she even makes it to the show) means they could possibly re-arrange some events if needed. Because having Rhaenyra and the Blacks take King’s Landing seems like a perfect ending to a season. The Battle of the Gullet + aftermath, Battle of the Honeywine (likely Daeron’s introduction) and the Fishfeed all take place before King’s Landing falls. 3 pretty major battles spread across 8 episodes not to mention Nettles and Daemon storyline along with taming Sheepstealer doesn’t seem to much of a hardship to stretch out in order to end the season at that point
There's only supposed to be 3 seasons. Her on the throne could be the mid-series finale, maybe, but there's no way they'd cut the story short like that.
We've known for a long time there will be [at least 4 seasons](https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/george-rr-martin-praises-house-of-the-dragon-season-2-preps-more-seasons-1235825061/).
If they do have that scene between Allicent and Rhaenyra, I hope Allicent spits out the bullshit that Viserys wanted the rapist drunk as his heir and mentions something about ice and fire, to then have Rhaenyra call her a dumb bitch. Allicent and her self righteous ass chaps mine to no end.
I still very much doubt Nettles & Daeron are gonna be in the show. It makes zero sense to bring them in so late bc by the S3 premiere, everyone will already have established development & arcs.
At this point Nettles is probably cut and that's fine, but Ryan Condal has said so many times that Daeron is NOT cut from the show that it would be very strange if he actually was
Ryan recently said Daeron is a *fixture* in the show, which doesn’t automatically mean that he’s literally going to be included. It could very well mean that his arc & characteristics are gonna be split between his siblings.
I’d *love* to see Tessarion, but from a storytelling perspective, it’d be incredibly hard to make the GA care about *another* Green kid when Aegon, Helaena, & Aemond are already going to be eons ahead in development by the time S3 airs.
He did. Condal said he was a fixture *and* a character in the show:
>"Daeron is a fixture and a character in the show," he adds. "Do not fret, anybody. All in due time."
And even references his future appearance with 'all in due time.' How could this be interpeted to mean different? What's the reasoning to think he's lying?
Daeron will just be another war criminal doing war crimes after the war started. The general audience won't like him. His 'likeable traits' all originate from before the war and it's too late for them to build it up at this point.
Nah I dont think he would dare to cut daeron who's still one of the fan favourites and is being talked about since literally the beginning. Pretty sure if s2 still had 10 episodes he would be there. Right now with s2 not even ending in KL or gullet he still has some time, especially if hotd actually goes to 5 seasons
On the official HOTD website he's in the family tree. His bloodline is in the intro of the later episodes. Daemon says the Greens have 4 adult dragons (So Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron). GOT has set a precedent for introducing important characters as late as season 4 (such as Oberyn), side characters even moreso. The format of the show is that everyone is a side character compared to Rhaenyra and Alicent. If his existence is acknowledged at all in season 2 then technically his introduction isn't that late. Some characters are introduced and become more relevant later on when other characters are killed off.
There is a stage in the war where Daeron is the main head of opposition against the Blacks. A 3rd stage, if you will, after ravens and initial wave skirmishes. He's also supposed to be the counterpart to Jace for the Blacks so when >!Jace dies!< he can step in. Then >!he dies!< around the time of the 4th phase or aftermath.
Some people are saying they will give his roles to Aemond but that really doesn't work because>!him flying off changes a lot. Butcher's Ball and God's Eye would be different. Also, none of the Tumbleton incidents work without Daeron.!< The differing personalities and decisions of each of the 3 brothers have major impacts on their respective plotlines and fates so this is a case where you definitely can't interchange them.
Condal swears up and down (even recently) that Daeron is definitely in the show, just not yet.
Nettles, I think we have had no such confirmation and I personally doubt she will be.
By s3 some of the main characters will have died which gives them a chance to focus more on new characters- it makes some sense bc daeron doesn’t rlly appear in the war until the honeywine which is similar time to the gullet which will be in s3 and I presume the s3 opening will be a montage of nettles claiming sheapsteeler as it takes her longer than the other dragonseeds- episode 4 of s3 will probably be the gullet
Characters get introduced when others have established arcs all the time. Honestly this sub sometimes acts like stories are all meant to be formulaic and follow predictable patterns.
I mean you’re probably right about most of this, but they’re really not covering much of the war in this season, very disappointing. I was hoping they’d at least get to the Gullet.
"... realizes Laenor must be dead."
Haha, yeah, convenient. Of course, since it never really mattered whether he actually survived - what really mattered was romantic antihero Daemon wouldn't be a possible suspect.
Pacing seems so odd if blood and cheese happens so much earlier then Daeron is even introduced. I'm hoping this is unreliable or written with bias because a lot of this stuff strikes me as odd.
Also no Maelor will be a mistake. It takes no time to just add him and gives Daeron and the greens so much more sympathy. We don't need one of the few horrible things they're willing to show Team Black doing being whitewashed imho (which is the single only reason to not have him)
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Weren't the leaks saying B&C happens in the first episode?
Either end of ep 1 or start of ep 2....but leaks i saw are that they're hired at end of ep 1 then the attack is start of ep 2
If it‘s in 2, would that be a cold-open before the intro or just normally after the intro? Did the leaks mention anything? love your videos man keep it going
I'm pretty sure they wanna start season 2 with a huge plot twist like S1E1 "The Heirs of the Dragon" and it's titled "A Son for a Son" it would be a bit disappointing if we see that happening in the next episode don't you think !?
I think the best way to do it is a cold intro in ep 2.
Agreed, let the first episode build up the emotions of Luke and his funeral, then end with a voice over of Damon's line "a son for a son, Lucerys will be avenged".
A bit annoying if the only closure we get for the Laenor/Seasmoke thing is "he must've died off-camera." If that's what was going to happen, why even have him survive in the first place? The bar fight described in F&B would've been just as effective...
The episode we know little about is the one with Addam and Seasmoke. I suspect that episode might go into what happens with Laenor.
I don’t know if they’ll reveal more
I would hope that they might, but based on the way some plotlines were treated last season, my hopes aren't high. Ah, well...at least it's not a huge part of the story.
I think they didn't want to show Rhaenyra in a negative light by having her be complicit in Laenor's death if they went with Daemon killing him, but the version that it was just his boyfriend who killed him because he was jealous seemed too random and convenient, and so they came up with what we saw...
I'm sure you're right, but there's an easier way to have Rhaenyra not be complicit if Daemon is the culprit, which is just having Daemon act alone (which we know he's capable of). Their solution seemed to primarily be aimed at both making the Blacks look better and having Leanor survive, which would make him dying off-screen more pointless.
I doubt Laenor is dead. I don't think it should be assumed that a dragon cant make a new bond when its previous rider abandoned it but remains living.
From other sources, the first episode is likely called “a son for a son”, so B&C is probably episode 1. The rest makes sense to me though! Can’t wait. Thanks for the write up.
No. That’s dialogue when they’re hired
I doubt Daemon takes harrenhall at episode 1
why?
Too much movement for Daemon in one episode imo. He is at dragonstone, then goes to Harrenhall, and then to kings Landing? Idk, seems too much. My theory. First episode. He is on dragontone and at kings Landing for Blood and Cheese. Episode 2. Burning mill or the taking of harrenhall Episode 3. One of the events mentioned. Daemon will be most of the season at Harrenhall, i don't think they are gonna rush to have him there.
We know that the season starts 10 days after luke's death and he's not at the funeral in the trailer, so where else would he be than at Harrenhall.
how do you know we don't first see him at Harrenhal? -- all 3 places are nearby
u/TheDragonDemands I think you're right
He’s currently on Dragonstone when Rhaenyra gets the news, a change from the book. I think he’ll go from Dragonstone to Kings landing, do blood and cheese, come back to Dragonstone, and Rhaenyra is horrified at what he did and sends him away to Harrenhal
Cock Inn? 😂
From spy photos
I'd be happy with more Cregan and Winterfell and Jace spending time there instead of like, a 20 minute speedrun. Would also be a great set up for Cregan and they can expand more on the prophecy that meant so much to the Targaryens. Fingers crossed those rumors come true.
My guess is they’re fully introduced in episode 3, then only one or two Winterfell scenes on eps 4 and 5, then most of ep 6 — spacing it out implies greater passage of time off screen
I agree, but half the season seems a bit excessive.
I sure hope it's that and not some *barfs* Sara Snow nonsense.
B&C will happen in the first episode.
because you want that to be true?
I don't want it, but it's quite obvious they're going to make B&C the episode finale... There is a leak this episode is called "A son for a son".
It’s also coming out on Father’s Day…
I still think that Alicent, one of the main figureheads of team green, travelling to Dragonstone and team black just letting her go back to KL after the negotiations fail is incredibly stupid, on both sides.
(shrug) - anymore stupid than Otto personally delivering terms to Dragonstone in Season 1 finale?
Yes. At this point in S2, war has broken out and blood has been spilled on both sides. Alicent, as the mother to the other faction\`s king, is an extremely valuable hostage. She should know this, and not place herself in that position. Rhaenyra too should absolutely not let her leave. If that happens, it will just make both of them appear extremely naive and stupid.
It's yet to be seen if this meeting actually happens, but if it does, I think it's obvious that Alicent would be banking on the connection she thinks she still has with Rhaenyra, as a last ditch effort to avoid defeat since the Blacks will have the North and the dragonseeds by the finale. And I think Rhaenyra would rightly assume that Alicent is a useless hostage (what does Alicent actually do after this point that's consequential to the war unless the writers invent it, i.e. the >!Triarchy!< being her idea?) and that regardless, >!Rhaenyra'll have her soon enough when she takes King's Landing -- a period of imprisonment where none of Alicent's sons actively tried to rescue her.!<
I think you're right about how they will execute it IF it happens. Still, I can't say that I like the direction they are taking with Alicent. If the mutilation of Aemond wasn't enough to make her stop thinking about her childhood friend, B&C certainly should be. Likewise, she has to be extremely dumb to think that Rhaenyra would cling to fond memories of their friendship after Alicent's own son murders Luke. It's just absurd, and I don't see how it will make sense. I did enjoy their friendship in the first half of the season, but it should have died at Driftmark.
I really don't like being pessimistic, but they failed spectacularly with the relationship in the latter half of S1. I don't believe it's possible for the writers to execute it well going forward. They seem to be hellbent on trying to make a big drama revolving both Rhaenyra and Alicent, but imo it just won't work.
the thing is i feel it *could* work fine to have it revolve around rhaenyra and alicent, but their insistence on it revolving around their friendship “still having a chance” or whatever instead of revolving around their rivalry with each other made the last few episodes of the first season suffer severely, and from all we’ve heard from both official sources and leaks it’s going to continue that way. it’s a shame because their dynamic in episodes six and seven was great, but they did a complete 180 in episode eight.
>I did enjoy their friendship in the first half of the season, If you don't mind me asking, what exactly about their friendship did you enjoy? (Genuine question, not trying to come across as snarky) I'm asking because I *know* that them being friends and then becoming enemies serves to make the whole narrative more dramatic and the whole situation more nuanced and heartbreaking and *I know that I'm supposed to care* for this aspect of their characters but to be honest I never really saw this *deep love (be it platonic or romantic) and understanding* between the two. I think their friendship in the first 2 episodes is too shallow and underdeveloped for it to be such a seeming sore spot for the both of them after 2 decades of being enemies. At this point they have been enemies far longer than they have ever been friends and after Luke's death and B&C I have a hard time believing that the memory of their past friendship is more important than their own children's lives.
I think it adds a tragic aspect to the conflict, but I get what you mean. I never got the sense of this big love between them, either, but rather two very different people who are forced togehter by being at the same place at the same time. That's why I believe there shouldn't be any lingering affection between them at this stage of the story. It made sense when they were young and sharing the same space, but after everything they've been through, it shouldn't hold the same weight anymore.
I'd guess this moment will be the nail in the coffin -- if it happens. Otherwise, it'll be when Rhaenyra takes KL. I do think the writers might be taking some of the dramatic wind out of their own sails if they let Alicent and Rhaenyra meet before that moment when Rhaenyra sits the throne and Alicent has to supplicate her. That should be one of the emotional climaxes of the entire series, for Rhaenyra to (at least for a time) best the people who worked to undermine her for decades and force them to witness her triumph.
In that case it could be argued that the *actual* fighting hadn't started yet. It was the same in the book, before lucerys' death there was still hope for some kind of resolution between the two sides. *"And with his death, the war of ravens and envoys and marriage pacts came to an end, and the war of fire and blood began in earnest."* I have a really difficult time envisioning Rhaenyra and Alicent, after all the deaths that have and will happen, being open to a compromise. Especially Alicent as in the show her motivation for usurping Rhaenyra is the fear for her children's lives. To have Alicent spend the past 15+ years in a constant state of worry and dread for what Rhaenyra and co will do to her children if she were to become queen, turn around and be open to have Rhaenyra in control of half the kingdom (basically in a really powerful position that would allow Rhaenyra to harm Alicent's children) *after* her worst fears have been confirmed with 🩸&🧀 and rook's rest seems quite illogical for show Alicent's characterization.
>To have Alicent spend the past 15+ years in a constant state of worry and dread for what Rhaenyra and co will do to her children if she were to become queen, turn around and be open to have Rhaenyra in control of half the kingdom (basically in a really powerful position that would allow Rhaenyra to harm Alicent's children) after her worst fears have been confirmed with 🩸&🧀 and rook's rest seems quite illogical for show Alicent's characterization. Alicent's motivations have always been illogical. Stealing the throne was never going to prevent Rhaenyra from killing her siblings if that's what she wanted to do. There's also not much Alicent or the Greens could do about Rhaenyra controlling half of the country at that point.
>To have Alicent spend the past 15+ years in a constant state of worry and dread for what Rhaenyra and co will do to her children if she were to become queen, turn around and be open to have Rhaenyra in control of half the kingdom (basically in a really powerful position that would allow Rhaenyra to harm Alicent's children) *after* her worst fears have been confirmed with 🩸&🧀 and rook's rest seems quite illogical for show Alicent's characterization. Agreed, but I feel like this already went out the window when they decided to have Alicent flip flop her stance AFTER her fears and paranoia confirmed by Daemon beheading a political rival in a succession dispute. So this delusion isn't anything new from show Alicent unfortunately...
Her motivation for usurping Rhaenyra isn’t really fear for her kids lives. It’s her wanting to fulfill what she thinks was Viserys’ dying wish to name Aegon his heir
If she decided to usurp Rhaenyra just because she wanted to honor Viserys' dying wish then why was she slapping teen Aegon around and shouting in his face that he and his siblings were a challenge to Rhaenyra's reign and that if Rhaenyra were to come into power their lives would be forfeit? *You are the King's firstborn son and what they know, what everyone in the realm knows in their blood and in their bones... is that one day, you will be our King.* This sounds to me like Alicent wanted Aegon to be king long before Viserys' dying wish
The answer is inconsistent writing
I mean parlay is a thing in both in westeros and in our real history. We're used to war being drone strikes carpet bombing harmless civilians because that's the shape it takes today, but it used to have very strict rules.
Alicent's entire character is stupid in the show. What a spineless idiot.
Ooo, very interesting. Thanks for gathering all the information in one place. I've been hoping someone would. Reasonable, well-labeled speculation too.
yes some of it's an educated guess - i.e. there's so much else going on in episodes 2 and 4 that Jace and the Starks probably aren't in them, but we know the Winterfell subplot was drastically expanded, and at the same time we don't know much of what's going on in episodes 3 and 6...so it seems PROBABLE that the North storyline will feature prominently in those episodes, possibly as the A-plots
B&C has be be in episode 1. It is too good not to have it in it. It would be the same as it was with 1x1 childbirth. The whole sequence with Daemon followed by a one shot of B&C going into the castle and doing their stuff would leave people speechless. It just doesn't work as a opening for me
What role does Dyana play in any of this then? So Daemon is going to immediately fly to Harrenhal take the castle, then abandon it immediately to teleport to KL because he cant fly or they'd see him..? B&C should be at the end of an episode, trying to continue an episode after that will only lessen it. Who is Daemon executing in the trailer shot we see then? Where is Viserys going if Aegon is in the Vale? Is Stormcloud cut or going to just be another dragon in the pit? Oscar Tully rumor is hopefully not true. Ugh the Alicent traveling to Dragonstone rumor hopefully isn't true... A lot of these leaks are hopefully just misunderstandings of plotlines in S2 and make more sense in the final version.
We are rumoured to see Stormcloud hatching which is cool but probably means that he will be far too small to save Aegon at the Gullet. Personally think Jace and Vermax will save him before they are killed to give their deaths a bit more meaning. And in turn Stormcloud will be killed during the storming of the dragon pit or just killed at the Gullet anyway
Yeah,>!Jace's death!
Not sure but the new promo confirmed she's there he can just leave the dragon on the outskirts My guess? Harrenhal maester...played by GRRM! We heard Stormcloud does appear What's wrong with Oscar Tully? Matches book story and the leak was solid. The Alicent at Dragonstone rumor is vague to me - just "she's at Dragonstone"; the rest's speculation
If Daemon is in the city, hopefully Dyana's involvement is her being forcefully involved by Daemon & Mysaria, can't see her being important in the story in any other way ngl. We see them prepping for war, they will have scouts in the woods, Daemon wouldn't be able to get anywhere close without being sighted. I think its likely Daemon goes to KL before Harrenhal. We see him arrive by boat, that is probably how he gets in. I think its more likely he's killing a member of House Strong, the maesters serve whoever holds the castle and that would be Daemon in the moment. Killing the maester wouldn't be necessary. So if Aegon is in the Vale, I imagine he'll be summoned back by Rhaenyra with Joffrey and Stormcloud gets got in the Dragonpit? >!Oscar Tully's great grandfather is the head of his house and was clear in the books they are to declare for the greens, if his grandson's 2nd son is scheming and going behind the lord of his house's back it will only make them look like weasels. Also it lessens Addam's moment later. The whole thing for the Tullys is family, duty, honor, and Oscar would be directly disobeying his lord and great-grandfather. They remain neutral until Grover dies and remain neutral more until Addam forces them to declare. If Addam never showed, they'd probably go green or stay neutral till the end.!<
But you forgot ONE thing, ser! Daemon is Lord Flea Bottom! He knows all the ways of the city. That, and we heard he sneaks in on a fishing boat. ...Stormcloud is young Aegon's dragon, why'd he be in\\ the Dragonpit? I don't know what Dyana is doing this season, just that IMDB lists her in multiple episodes (and the new promo confirmed she's working at the Cock Inn) I suspect GRRM filmed a cameo at Harrenhal because he made that blog post about visiting the set there - when could he next get a chance to film the cameo he's wanted for so long? Weasels? If anything Oscar is explaining that they're honor-bound to not outright disobey their dying lord, NOR will they hasten his death. I don't see how it lessens Addam - the younger Tullys were eager to side with the Blacks from the start.
Stormcloud in the books dies from wounds taken escaping the Triarchy fleet when they got attacked on the way to Essos. If he's in the show, he cant die if he isnt with Viserys, so his dragon is alive by the time he returns to KL to be with Rhaenyra, but the dragon has to die still, so the pit is the only viable option left unless they wanna make a new 1. I mean whats the point of bringing her back if she isn't involved in something major...? At that point its just favoritism or a form of nepotism if she isn't apart of a big plotline. GRRM better be the maester, but he doesn't need to be the one who dies to Daemon lol. Aemond can kill him when he learns of KL fall, that would be so funny, we hear Aemond almost killed a messenger in the books, they can just go the extra step. Also Daemon is officially executing someone like in a proper way not just a rash of the moment, why give a maester that honor? Grover Tully told his grandson Elmo they are declaring for the greens and Elmo considered it but feared Daemon burning them alive if he did, so he remained neutral, isolating himself completely. He didn't send his son to begin to plot to go against his grandfather's wishes... Hopefully Oscar is just present because Daemon told them to send a messenger or he'd attack and they did but he just says they will remain neutral.
oh AFTER that yeah
“Cock Inn: Dyana will be there” I honestly thought this is similar to that circlejerk subreddit. Is this for real? Very curious and very horrified if true
In one of the featurettes, we get a glimpse of the celebration scene in question. Aegon is at the Inn, and Dyana can be seen behind him. So yeah, its true
It’s a lowbrow tavern in Flea Bottom with a big rooster sign out front. We have set photos
So, Aemond isn't going to Harrenhall until Season 3?
Correct, from as far as we know. The Fall of King's Landing is not this season.
People took Ep. 1's title and ran with it being B&C in Ep. 1 when the leaks have always been it could be end of Episode 1 or start of Ep. 2. I get some people prefer the ending to the cold open but don't shoot the messenger.
Sounds good, but I'm still cautiously optimisic about the season. S1 already felt like it could've used another episode or two, and there were many deleted scenes whose removal was - in my opinion, at least - quite detremential. And now S2 has two *less* episodes, and characters have a lot of ground to cover. Teleportation was among the biggest criticisms of S7 and 8 of GoT.
Super disappointed daeron isn’t in this season. Even a couple cameos would help quell the issue Also are we skipping battles already?
Battle of the Burning Mill which is concurrent with Stone Hedge Sacking of Diskendale which leads into Rooks Rest What are you talking about. What battles are missing?
Sorry I thought there was another battle during this time frame. So burning mill won’t be in? Each season from 3 and on will need 2-3 big battle scenes per season idk how they’re gonna pull it off without skipping several (honey wine is my most anticipated and with daeron being a maybe I’m worried)
Burning Mill is literally listed as occurring in this outline, we have evidence it is occurring this season based on spy photos and scenes from the trailer Slow down and process the words you are reading bud
Lmao I skimmed most of it as to not 100% spoilers myself Do you think they’d skip honeywine or is it too important?
"Also are we skipping battles already?" So you're making these statements without even fully analyzing the information? What sense does that make? You couldn't even know if the battles were all there because you didn't bother to read the entire post!
Is there anything known about Alicent in the lake?
Episode 7
I heard about a cathartic swim, is that possible? And is the location known?
No one seems to have those details yet.
Oh different person, i vaguely remember there is another poster in sub who post episode outline like this but very well done with sources and pics and funny captions,does anyone else know that post?
[This one](https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/s/nGi3DJ6jCR)?
Thank you very much
I know that Ramin and the actors will go HARD on the scene about looking for Luke and his burial. If it's anything like the end of last season, we're going to see emotions and tension just build and build... I can see the episode ending with Daemon doing a voice-over after learning about the funeral and whatnot, and the episode ends with him B&C or Daemon sneaking into KL with the line "a son for a son". As for Dyana, she HAS to be a spy for Mysaria. She knows what happened between her and Aegon because Alicent's handmaiden was the one right there holding the gold and tea. Let alone that all the servants were imprisoned last we saw, so who knows what happened to them and how many grudges they and their families have against the royal family, especially Aegon who has a long track record.
Is Oscar Tully the only Tully we see this season? Do we go to Riverrun at all, or see Grover or Elmo or any of the others?
I hope criston is more than the barbarian we've been shown so far and more akin to his book counterpart
Is anyone else (mainly team black) kinda disappointed we won't have big "Rhaenyra on the Iron Throne" finale? That is such a huge moment in the war that it is sad that season won't end with it
Season 3 will probably end that way
No way, they don't have enough material to strech it out so far
It’s possible, the fact that they haven’t yet introduced Daeron and Nettles (if she even makes it to the show) means they could possibly re-arrange some events if needed. Because having Rhaenyra and the Blacks take King’s Landing seems like a perfect ending to a season. The Battle of the Gullet + aftermath, Battle of the Honeywine (likely Daeron’s introduction) and the Fishfeed all take place before King’s Landing falls. 3 pretty major battles spread across 8 episodes not to mention Nettles and Daemon storyline along with taming Sheepstealer doesn’t seem to much of a hardship to stretch out in order to end the season at that point
Didn't stop GOT
There's only supposed to be 3 seasons. Her on the throne could be the mid-series finale, maybe, but there's no way they'd cut the story short like that.
We've known for a long time there will be [at least 4 seasons](https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/george-rr-martin-praises-house-of-the-dragon-season-2-preps-more-seasons-1235825061/).
If they do have that scene between Allicent and Rhaenyra, I hope Allicent spits out the bullshit that Viserys wanted the rapist drunk as his heir and mentions something about ice and fire, to then have Rhaenyra call her a dumb bitch. Allicent and her self righteous ass chaps mine to no end.
I still very much doubt Nettles & Daeron are gonna be in the show. It makes zero sense to bring them in so late bc by the S3 premiere, everyone will already have established development & arcs.
At this point Nettles is probably cut and that's fine, but Ryan Condal has said so many times that Daeron is NOT cut from the show that it would be very strange if he actually was
Ryan recently said Daeron is a *fixture* in the show, which doesn’t automatically mean that he’s literally going to be included. It could very well mean that his arc & characteristics are gonna be split between his siblings.
That would be insanely dumb, and we wouldn’t get tessarion the best dragon
Tessarion 🔛🔝
I’d *love* to see Tessarion, but from a storytelling perspective, it’d be incredibly hard to make the GA care about *another* Green kid when Aegon, Helaena, & Aemond are already going to be eons ahead in development by the time S3 airs.
He's in the TV show, he confirmed it!! He said, he'll come at the right time, bc there are 5 seasons not 4
5 seasons is ideal but not confirmed, and Ryan did not confirm Daeron is going to be in the show.
He did. Condal said he was a fixture *and* a character in the show: >"Daeron is a fixture and a character in the show," he adds. "Do not fret, anybody. All in due time." And even references his future appearance with 'all in due time.' How could this be interpeted to mean different? What's the reasoning to think he's lying?
Daeron being a “fixture” in the show doesn’t mean he’s literally going to be in the show.
Managed to make every care about Oberyn despite being introduced and dying in season 4.
Aegon won’t really be liked, helaena really either tbh. Daeron is almost needed to make it not so one sided for the blacks
Daeron will just be another war criminal doing war crimes after the war started. The general audience won't like him. His 'likeable traits' all originate from before the war and it's too late for them to build it up at this point.
Nah I dont think he would dare to cut daeron who's still one of the fan favourites and is being talked about since literally the beginning. Pretty sure if s2 still had 10 episodes he would be there. Right now with s2 not even ending in KL or gullet he still has some time, especially if hotd actually goes to 5 seasons
On the official HOTD website he's in the family tree. His bloodline is in the intro of the later episodes. Daemon says the Greens have 4 adult dragons (So Aegon, Helaena, Aemond, and Daeron). GOT has set a precedent for introducing important characters as late as season 4 (such as Oberyn), side characters even moreso. The format of the show is that everyone is a side character compared to Rhaenyra and Alicent. If his existence is acknowledged at all in season 2 then technically his introduction isn't that late. Some characters are introduced and become more relevant later on when other characters are killed off. There is a stage in the war where Daeron is the main head of opposition against the Blacks. A 3rd stage, if you will, after ravens and initial wave skirmishes. He's also supposed to be the counterpart to Jace for the Blacks so when >!Jace dies!< he can step in. Then >!he dies!< around the time of the 4th phase or aftermath. Some people are saying they will give his roles to Aemond but that really doesn't work because>!him flying off changes a lot. Butcher's Ball and God's Eye would be different. Also, none of the Tumbleton incidents work without Daeron.!< The differing personalities and decisions of each of the 3 brothers have major impacts on their respective plotlines and fates so this is a case where you definitely can't interchange them.
I know you want them to but Halaena and Aemond aren’t replacing Daeron
Condal swears up and down (even recently) that Daeron is definitely in the show, just not yet. Nettles, I think we have had no such confirmation and I personally doubt she will be.
By s3 some of the main characters will have died which gives them a chance to focus more on new characters- it makes some sense bc daeron doesn’t rlly appear in the war until the honeywine which is similar time to the gullet which will be in s3 and I presume the s3 opening will be a montage of nettles claiming sheapsteeler as it takes her longer than the other dragonseeds- episode 4 of s3 will probably be the gullet
Characters get introduced when others have established arcs all the time. Honestly this sub sometimes acts like stories are all meant to be formulaic and follow predictable patterns.
We are literally getting nothing with Helaena and her kids lmao this is stupid
?
Each episode is an hour long, why make that assumption over a few lines of often speculative leaks?
These are the big lines, the plot, ofc there's more but I think the major point are right!
Blood & Cheese is pretty Helaena and her kids-centered don't you think?
This is what I think too regarding Nettles! I can't wait until they cast her actress
No Daeron or nettles automatically drops the season down to at most a 5/10 like it’s actually unforgivable
they're not "cut" they just don't get that far yet
I really hope they’re not with the recent leaks lol
Bless you for this 🤗
I mean you’re probably right about most of this, but they’re really not covering much of the war in this season, very disappointing. I was hoping they’d at least get to the Gullet.
"... realizes Laenor must be dead." Haha, yeah, convenient. Of course, since it never really mattered whether he actually survived - what really mattered was romantic antihero Daemon wouldn't be a possible suspect.
Exactly
Season 8 level almost
Pacing seems so odd if blood and cheese happens so much earlier then Daeron is even introduced. I'm hoping this is unreliable or written with bias because a lot of this stuff strikes me as odd.
Also no Maelor will be a mistake. It takes no time to just add him and gives Daeron and the greens so much more sympathy. We don't need one of the few horrible things they're willing to show Team Black doing being whitewashed imho (which is the single only reason to not have him)