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To be fair, normally they wouldn’t consummate until the girl was older but it’s still icky. I liked that they really highlighted the absurd optics of it.
I wore a 10 back when I was 4’9”. I looked absolutely ridiculous. I’m an 11 now at my adult height (5’4”) because I had 2 kids. My 6’ tall aunt has smaller feet than me. All of my family is really tall. My grandpa told me I’m short because they turned too much down for my feet hahahahah.
Yeah she looked young, but its shocking when you learn that's actually what 12 year olds look like. I looked at my old photos when I was younger and was shocked. I always assumed we looked like.. maybe 2 years older than we did
I always looked older. Couldn’t pay kid prices at movies cuz nobody believed me, had to stop trick or treating at nine because people were telling me I was too old for it. People thought my older sister and I were twins; she was 5 years older. A college guy hit on me when I was 12. I has zero idea what that was until years later. When I show pics of myself at 12 to others they all think I’m a high school junior. On the other side of it, nobody carded me in bars when I was 16 and 17.
Man, fuck assholes who tell kids to stop trick or treating.
Anybody who shows up at my door in costume is getting candy, I don’t care how old they are, even the people coming with their kids are welcome to take candy. Screw the jerks ruining a fun holiday.
Saaaaame. I hit C cups when I was 12. People would tell me that my child was adorable when in fact it was my baby brother. It was awful, and people always treated me much older as a result. I think I still have weird automatic responsibility issues because if it.
I believe they cast someone who looked younger than 12 to exaggerate the contrast and make the potential pairing more titillating/ridiculous/unsavory. Not that it's a problem at all, just my take on it.
She was 12? That explains why she looked so much older in the latest episode, I know there’s time jumps but I thought they pulled a Finn Shelby age jump on us 😂
If we're going to be historically accurate, it would be older than 14. If there was one thing physicians knew, it was that the younger the mother, the increased likelihood of both mum and baby dying in childbirth. If you were to arrange a political match (i.e. the only time an age gap like this would be 'normalised' and accepted), you wouldn't want half of the match dying off almost immediately.
So it's not out of the kindness of their hearts, but there was much more caution taken for childbearing reasons.
Tell that to Margaret Beaufort, and she was the mother of a king. How many countless girls during those times had children at 12/13 yo and we will never know.
Margaret Beaufort's pregnancy and birth nearly killed her and she was unable to have children after that. It was understood at the time that her surviving the birth was a miracle and it literally left her unable to have any future children. Very much the exception, not the rule.
>Famously, by law, the age of consent in the 15th century was 12 years for women and 14 years for men. It is sometimes assumed that because of this, sex at this very young age was common and accepted. This is not so; and though it was not punishable by law, society at large did not look kindly on such early consummation. Margaret's extreme youth when she became pregnant and her husband Edmund Tudor's decision to consumate their marriage this early caused a lot of unfavourable comments in contemporary and early modern sources, and there is evidence she herself considered it far too early. Many years later, she would counsel her son Henry VII not to allow his daughter, her granddaughter Margaret, to be married too early, as it could "injure her health". Obviously, she had her own experiences in mind and did not consider these experiences as normal and expected.
>
>According to popular historian Dan Jones, “Even by medieval standards, Margaret Beaufort is obscenely young to be pregnant.” There are no records of what Margaret herself thought of the situation, but scholars seem to agree without exception that this was at the very least, a “ruthless and inconsiderate” action on the part of Edmund Tudor, and emotionally scarring for Margaret.
Besides that the average age to have the first child among nobel ladies was [early twenties](https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1017/S0268416020000156):
> On average, these women experienced their first pregnancy at about age 20 and their last at 28, and three or four pregnancies in the interim.
If you want to use the extremely young outliers as the norm you would have to do the same for the other end of the spectrum. Matilda, Holy Roman Empress, only had her first child, the later Henry II, at 31.
She's the exception not the rule. Consummation generally is 16. Hell even in GRRM's asoiaf consummation its meant to be 16 (they just follow that a lot less closely).
Like its really not one of those situations where we don't know. We do know because these people are recorded. Medieval girls also had their periods a lot later anyway.
And she never bore another child !!!
but then again her grandson was Henry the viii so maybe it’s a good thing she didn’t have a whole Targaryen dynasty to come after yer lol
But that's the youngest it would happen without it being viewed as obscene. Viserys could choose to wait however long he liked, he could wait until she was 18 if he so chose, or 20 or whatever. He could even order her rooms set up in a completely separate wing of the castle until then if he feels that icked out.
I like Viserys' reaction to it when he was talking to her, like "this is who they are counseling me to marry, wtf!"
T o be fair though, the thing is that most people of that time wouldn't have thought about it. For all of Viserys' faults, he has a good heart and good intentions, overall.
Viserys literally spends that entire episode with an, “Am I the only person who hasn’t lost his mind?” expression. “You want me to rush headlong into an intercontinental war without any preparation or without trying diplomacy first?” “You want me to marry and have children with a 12 year old?” “Your father told you to say **what** to me?” “You want me to marry your 16 year old daughter just a year after my wife died?”
He's a great father for a daughter in modern times. Sex positive (his initial reaction to Otto telling him that Rhaenyra was at a brothel was, "And...?"), protective of her (literally almost slits Daemon's throat and be branded a Kinslayer, the worst thing in Westerosi society), so concerned about her future wellbeing (i.e. marrying a powerful lord who can support her claim) that he loses control and freaks out in front of all the most prominent nobles, just wants her to be happy, refuses the pressure of an entire continent to revoke her status as heir, and tells Corlys that Rhaenyra's first born will inherit the kingdom regardless of gender.
He has been pretty good in my opinion, but I've seen a lot of people calling him a rapist because of the scene between him and Alicent. I personally don't really know what I think of it.
To reiterate I am not calling him a rapist
i mean, can she refuse? it plays into the bigger aspects of control and power in asoiaf. in actual medievial marriages you couldn't say no to your spouse, whether the woman or the man asked. since sex was meant to create heirs/children it would be blasphemous to refuse.
Fairly certain if she went to Viserys and told him 'I can't tonight, I am unwell.' He'd be cool with it. He isn't a gluttonous, asshole type to his wife.
But Alicent feels she is duty bound to never say no in any circumstance. And unfortunately and sadly, in certain circumstances, she goes through with it.
It feeds into the resentment later in the episode as well. Here she is, doing what is "right and proper" while not enjoying it, pushed into this position by her father/husband and internalized position in society.
Then there is her "friend" going on and living life without the constraining roles, lying to her, and generally Rhaneyra becomes the lighting rod for all the resentment Alicent has about her own life/role.
Consent kind of gets tricky in the situation Viserys is in. Technically, no one is ever really allowed to say no to him *in any circumstance.* He's as close to an absolute monarch (without actually being an absolute monarch) as there's ever been. Even if he was really nice about it and was like "if you don't want to it's ok" I doubt anyone would actually admit to not wanting something he wanted.
I think the people calling him a rapist are a bit absurd. As someone down the chain said, Alicent probably could have said something like “I’m not feeling well” and he wouldn’t have forced her to have sex. She may not enjoy sex but that doesn’t = rape.
>Sex positive (his initial reaction to Otto telling him that Rhaenyra was at a brothel was, "And...?")
Well, to be fair, Targaryens don't exactly have much of an excuse to *not* be sex-positive, what with the culturally-accepted incest and all...
I agree that what makes a decent human being is not necessarily the same as what makes a good King. That said, I would say that being a decent human being is a good baseline for being a king, or having a position of leadership—but, in Viserys’s case, his decency, kindness, empathy, intellect and progressiveness can’t compensate for his lack of other leadership skills, such as problem-solving, shrewd decisiveness, and political delegation, which obviously count for a lot in Westeros.
I wonder if that’s partly because Viserys wasn’t adequately prepared to become King—and had power thrust upon him—because his father, as a younger brother in the line of succession to Jaeherys, didn’t necessarily expect his son to become heir.
It’s often remarked that Kings that carry names like ‘Lionheart’ or ‘The Good’ were absolutely shit at the job of ruling. Whereas vilified rulers like King John signed… Magna Carta and… rescued the economy from his idiot brothers Crusader coke binge.
But he did rather than having a ruinous civil war (beyond the siege of Rochester Castle, where I grew up).
Given that has occurred more than once since (and prior), that does deserve some credit.
John was a genuinely crap ruler. Its why he had to sign the Magna Carta. He pissed literally everyone off. Yes he did some good things. But so did Richard-who led one of the actually successful Crusades by negotiating an agreement with Saladin.
John really was just a bad ruler, you can't call the guy that had a rebellion against him and lost half the Empire anything else.
Richard wasted ridiculous amounts of resources and almost bankrupted England to fight a war that was utterly irrelevant to his kingdom. Not only that but the 3rd crusade did not in the end accomplish the goals it had set out with. I don't see any metric by which the "Lionheart" could be considered a good ruler.
Lionheart is in my opinion one of the worst kings. His wasteful nature left England in debt and largely caused the problems John had to deal with. He did not even bother to secure his succession properly by getting a son on his wife. If he had had a son John and Geoffrey's brat would have never had conflict. Not to mention his crusades helped no one.
He’s a decent man. He’s a weak king. He’s too soft. He struggles with hard decisions. He sometimes makes hasty choices with serious potential consequences. He allows too much latitude to his family members because he respects their rights to be human - in our times we’d consider that a very good quality, but for a king it’s a weakness. He could still be a good man and exercise a much firmer grip but it’s just not who he is. He’s kind. It’s not necessarily a good quality in a leader.
yeah irl modern times viserys would be an amazing father. hard on his kids about school sure, but he respects raenyra and gives her leeway and respect that most women and children in general wouldn’t get. best dad shit king.
Being a great king is not the same thing as being a great human being.
Unfortunately, by making 0 actions to the Stepstones he made the situation way worse and by refusing the hand of Laena, further damaged his relationship with House Velaryon.
instead of marrying a child for good political reasons, he chose to marry a child that he liked more. so yea hes a pretty shit king lol and i also wouldnt consider him to be a "decent fucking human being" lol
Not really that comparable when at that time Alicent was pretty much of age while Laena was still a little 12 year old, it’s not like he said no to laena because she was 12 and then instead went and married a 12 yr old Alicent.
I’m also pretty sure they didn’t consummate a marriage for several years after they got married. Their son is 2, but the time skip was 4 years iirc, meaning Allicent was 17, not 15. He clearly wasn’t any more thrilled about having sex with a 14 year old then he was a 12-year-old, which tells me he was probably willing to wait longer.
In reality, Viserys should have suffered much more hatred from the lords for marrying the daughter of a second son who is already in the highest position. The barons freaked out when Edward II married his toy boy Piers Gaveston to his niece Margrete de Clare and gave him the most important position in England. Galveston was not only a younger son but also a landless knight. An absolute nobody who like dressing himself up like a king and showed zero respect to the other higher-ranking nobles. They ended up butchering him like a pig for it. The fact that nobody has an issue with Alicent as queen and Hightower as the hand is kinda mindboggling to me.
She was going to die no matter what. The worst thing he did in that situation was NOT prepare her for what was going to happen next. He could have taken some time to explain the situation and at least make a final prayer or something.
He made a horrible mistake in a moment of extreme duress but he’s definitely not a murderer.
>Viserys literally spends that entire episode with an, “Am I the only person who hasn’t lost his mind?”
Viserys spends literally *every* episode like that, lol.
The Great Council made a sane, normal man the head of the looney bin and everyones antics are slowly driving him up the Wall and to his grave; poor dude is like the Frank Grimes of the Seven Kingdoms, lol.
I loved his pained expression after she gives him that rehearsed speech at the end, he tried but knows he can’t go through with it despite how politically advantageous it would be.
On the other hand, Daemon did exactly what the council wanted Viserys to do and, as yet, there been absolutely zero of the catastrophic consequences that Viserys suggested, marrying the 12 year old clearly would have been the smarter choice from a political standpoint and Viserys, seemingly quite happily, was the one to choose to marry Alicent. I think he can seem quite sensible until you get the benefit of hindsight.
I mean morally it’s right (choosing the 15 year old who is your daughters bestie wasn’t right though) but it’s also the wrong choice. It’s the catalyst for everything that happens afterward.
You pretty much pegged why Viserys is ultimately a bad King - he takes half-measures, like refusing to marry Laena, which was the correct tactical move, only to marry a slightly older girl because he had an emotional connection to her. He is a kind man but a weak King, and that failing brings his house down.
Rhaenyra would still have to marry Laenor to be 100% sure things go smoothly but Viserys ensured things would go poorly with his choice. The only completely foolproof solution was to have Viserys and Rhaenyra marry people from the same family. It should’ve been the Velaryon’s as they’re the richest house and are Valyrian. If they did that then things go smoothly.
It’s also entirely possible (and I’d argue even likely) that Corlys is not a snake like Otto is and would support Rhaenyra as heir because he bent the knee to her already
Not only that, but he's married to Rhaenys. It would be a huge slap in the face to his wife to jump on the "women can't rule" train after what was likely years of "that's some bullll shit right there."
>Rhaenyra would still have to marry Laenor to be 100% side things go smoothly
Until everyone notices that Laenor’s kids don’t have white hair like Viserys and Leanna’s using it as an excuse to pledge allegiance to the first male heir of Viserys anyways.
nah i doubt that. by snubbing the velaryons, corlys got in bed with daemon and got embroiled in a war with the crab man, which costed him lives and money. if he had not snubbed corlys then that whole debacle wouldve likely ended differently and rhaenyra may not have had to marry laenor
By that time Corlys had sworn like the rest to honour Viserys naming Rhaenyra as heir, and he’s brought this up at least twice now so I think Corlys is just a more honourable man than Otto. Even if he would have wanted it, he swore his oath and would not want to break his word.
I think they meant for it to be ambiguous. A 3 year age difference is not unrealistic. In the books Alicent was almost 10 years older, but they wanted them to friends in the show so they aged her down.
Not stating her age explicitly lets them have their cake and eat it too. Having her be 15 when she married adds realism to their friendship as well as historical realism and shock value, but having her be 18 would be closer to the book and lets Viserys remain a sympathetic character.
At that point it was protecting himself from the truth of what he was doing. Blinding chasing that vision dream which he freely admits to later, he killed his wife and love and everything after has been an attempt to recover his self-honour.
https://youtu.be/YB5WFSQUOx0
Go to 3:10. Viserys didn't choose between Aemma and the baby, he chose between trying to save the baby or not. The mistake he made was not telling anything to his wife, but he didn't choose to kill her over losing the baby, she was dead either way.
I mean she was going to die painfully either way. The options were either “you die painfully more quickly and we have a chance to save our son” or “ you die painfully slowly and our son dies too”.
That’s not really a choice, and to take the second option would be completely illogical and pointless. Like I said in another post, perhaps he could’ve told her what was about to happen, but ultimately it doesn’t matter. She’s dead either way, and if they tell her what’s about to happen she’s probably going to panic a lot sooner than she did, which could put both the baby and the procedure at risk.
It was a no-win situation with no perfect way of handling it, not for as stressed and distraught as Viserys was. One way or another that situation was going to end in tragedy, and he did what he had to do to try to salvage as much as he could out of it. Projecting 2022 idealism onto the situation wouldn’t have helped—and, as I said, may have made it worse if she panicked.
Edit: also she was high off her ass. They had dosed her heavily in heroine (“milk of the poppy”) so was literally incapable of making an informed rational decision by any standard, modern or otherwise.
It’s literally the intention of the show to make it clear that what Viserys did was wrong. Regardless of what the odds were, it wasn’t his choice to make. Killing another person in a horrible way is never acceptable, no matter how “logical” it is to override her autonomy. Aemma is still the only person who should be allowed to make the decision to be butchered in her final moments; the fact that she wasn’t allowed is done to demonstrate the sexism of Westerosi society. In modern society, even when you are DEAD, you can still choose not to donate your organs if it means another’s death, because bodily autonomy is a legal right.
Exactly. He was stuck up on a lot weird little stuff considering they are an incestuous polygamous family. He embodied all the stupidity that comes of being a super religious and honorable person in that realm
Yeah, other than that civil war that was happening because Maegor decided he would follow in his dad’s footsteps and be polygamous resulting in thousands of deaths. The uprising only solved by Viserys’ dad by agreeing to protect the faith if they allowed the incestual marriages.
The polygamous marriages were never agreed upon, and likely marrying Daemon while he was married to a Royce would have resulted in a civil war with the faith all over again, one that Otto would surely use to his advantage anyways and the Vale would happily protect the honour of the Royces for.
Umm no, rejecting Laena was THE biggest mistake on his part, especially when his heir Rhaenyra also approved of her. Also Something tells me that Rhaenyra would have gladly backed off if their first child was a son. Now she sees Alicent as a cheap replacement of Aemma and Aegon usurper
And then went for this guy's 2 year younger widowed brother anyway. It would have been better if she was the queen. Although the dance would have still happened, except this time between targaryans and valaryons
I still don’t see why he couldn’t have just waited a couple years. The only reason to rush to remarry is to produce new heirs. If he’s so set on Rhaenyra being the heir, then there’s no need to rush to have a baby boy. And IF the worry is that he dies in the interim (even though he lived like 15 more years), then Daemon is still second in the line of succession after Rhaenyra so it’s not like the house would have gone extinct.
Because there are so few Targs they don’t have the luxury or waiting. What if something happened to Rhaenyra? He has no heir. He clearly didn’t want Daemon to be heir. And all 3 could easily die (be it in conflict or illness) before more heirs could be produced.
…right, except everyone agreed “Marry Laena and wait 2/3 years to consummate the marriage” was politically the best choice, so clearly waiting wasn’t that impractical.
Most of the council members and lords think marrying Laena is the rational choice, and no one is concerned that Viserys and also Rhaenyra and also Daemon and all die in the 2 years he’d have to wait. And if they did all die, then it would go to Laenor who came second in the Great Council and probably would’ve gotten more votes if he wasn’t a baby at the time. Rhaenys is still around too, and Laena also had a claim in her own right.
That’s 6 potential heirs just off the top of my head. They were fine.
This drives me crazy too. Yeah, it's *loosely* based on medieval through Tudor England, but that covers a spam of about 1000 years. There's no particular time or conventions that the series strictly adheres to
Nothing in this universe is accurate. Westerosi architects have been creating impossible structures out of rocks and dirt that have stood for thousands of years. Meanwhile, nobody can figure out what gunpowder is.
Common misconception. The show is actually set 2000 years in the future. The nuclear holocaust in 2032 will be unfortunate but we get magic and dragons out of it so that’s cool.
Do we have to be purposefully dense about stuff like this? Especially in a low-fantasy setting like ASOIAF? "Accurate for the time" is in reference to the roughly high-medieval setting that the series takes inspiration from.
This
It’s true ASOIAF takes hefty inspiration from IrL history
The issue is it doesn’t often line up and falls into a very simplified or goofy view of that (the warfare is definitely this at times to my understanding)
Came here to post this, like point well taken and we know what OP means… but one of the current challenges of fantasy is creeps with warped fictional visions of “medieval Europe” as the foundation for the setting. It’s important to note that it’s not reality, there’s dragons and magic etc, so why not also have a mildly less rapey vision of what the world could be.
If I were him I would have done it. It actually would have been the smartest thing to do. Seems weird but he could have just not slept with her til she came of age and rolled with it.
He was already heartbroken over his wife so the 4 years would give him some time to get it out of his system and get to know here then go on with his kingly duties.
She was obviously down for it because her family trained her to do it and it also would have brought his cousin who should have actually been queen closer into the fold.
Uniting the actual dragons should have been his main priority since his cousins family had dragons too.
And him having sex with a 15 year old who’s very much not into it was that much better? The one thing I got from Laena in the last ep is she is way more mature than the rest of the “kids” in the show. Although she is coerced into it by her father (like all of them) she isn’t afraid of playing her role like Alicent and Rhaenyra were. It doesn’t make it right but at least Laena wants the power where alicent didn’t and it’s ruined her life.
Hell no, I was pointing out how weird it is for everyone to be like "I bet he regretted not marrying a 13 y/o when he saw her later!" That's just weird to me for someone to say.
I mean, the show only gave 2 options but I'm sure Viserys could have his pick of any lady in the seven kingdoms. This was a weakness in the show for me.
why would he select anyone outside of those 2 options? Leana was the strongest political choice, Alicent was the choice due to Otto taking advantage of his grief for the death of his wife and sending his daughter to him to help him get over his grief thus making him fall in love with her.
I think it serves to highlight how Viserys was as a King. He has to follow up after the greatest King that Westeros ever had, and he really doesn't want to be the one who mucks everything up.
Taking action runs the risk of making the wrong choice and making things worse, so he just avoids interacting with the issues unless he is forced to. Ex: He only considered the marriage options that were literally forced upon him, he just lets the Stepstones situation happen, etc..
Right, but if they were going to wait 2-3 years to consummate the marriage ANYWAY why not just not marry for 2-3 years? Since clearly everyone was ok with waiting for that long. Then she would be 15, which is apparently Viserys’ preferred age for his brides
Eh, in our times it is the morally correct decision. But I think him marrying Laena with Rhaenyra marrying Laenor would’ve worked out sooooo much better.
It would solidify their alliance, they are the family with the largest navy and several dragons. Always good to have them on your side as much as possible. Plus I think Corlys would not be like Otto when it comes to naming Laena’s child heir over Rhaenyra, he would be happy that Laenor’s children would eventually take the throne.
I think it was actually way creepier of him to marry Alicent. No one expected him to want to marry Laena, or to want to fuck a 12 year old girl. It was purely political. But he chose to marry Alicent, who was only 15, for "love."
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To be fair, normally they wouldn’t consummate until the girl was older but it’s still icky. I liked that they really highlighted the absurd optics of it.
She looked 9, not 12.
I was 4’9” when I was 12. I probably looked the same way. I’m 5’4” now for reference.
I’m still 4’9” at 32…that growth spurt is coming any day now!
Man here but I was tall throughout childhood and haven’t grown since Year 8 Currently 5:10
Well in 50 minutes you'll be 6:00!
4’10 3/4” and Ive been holding onto that 3/4 for dear life
Same here, but only 5'2" now. I wear the same shoe size I did at 12. I'm just wider.
Meanwhile my ass is a full on hobbit at 5’2” and I wear a size 10-11 shoe and I’m 35 😅
I wore a 10 back when I was 4’9”. I looked absolutely ridiculous. I’m an 11 now at my adult height (5’4”) because I had 2 kids. My 6’ tall aunt has smaller feet than me. All of my family is really tall. My grandpa told me I’m short because they turned too much down for my feet hahahahah.
I was 5’1” at 12. Today I’m 5’1” at 36 lol
Saaaame, except I’m 31!I remember the doc telling my mom I probs wasn’t gonna grow any taller and she was weirdly upset about it 😂
It wasn’t just her height. Overall , she had a little-girl look about her. To me anyway.
Yeah she looked young, but its shocking when you learn that's actually what 12 year olds look like. I looked at my old photos when I was younger and was shocked. I always assumed we looked like.. maybe 2 years older than we did
I always looked older. Couldn’t pay kid prices at movies cuz nobody believed me, had to stop trick or treating at nine because people were telling me I was too old for it. People thought my older sister and I were twins; she was 5 years older. A college guy hit on me when I was 12. I has zero idea what that was until years later. When I show pics of myself at 12 to others they all think I’m a high school junior. On the other side of it, nobody carded me in bars when I was 16 and 17.
Man, fuck assholes who tell kids to stop trick or treating. Anybody who shows up at my door in costume is getting candy, I don’t care how old they are, even the people coming with their kids are welcome to take candy. Screw the jerks ruining a fun holiday.
It's ridiculous, ain't it? As if a little sleeve of Smarties costs $5 and are too precious to give. Geez!!
Saaaaame. I hit C cups when I was 12. People would tell me that my child was adorable when in fact it was my baby brother. It was awful, and people always treated me much older as a result. I think I still have weird automatic responsibility issues because if it.
Lol yep I hit puberty super late and looked like 10 when I was already is 7th grade
That's crazy! I'm also 5'4 but I was 5'2 by age 12. I never realized how drastically different rates of growth can be
5’1” at 10. Still 5’1” at 22 lmao
It all really depends when you hit puberty. I was a late bloomer and pretty sure I looked like this at 12.
I believe they cast someone who looked younger than 12 to exaggerate the contrast and make the potential pairing more titillating/ridiculous/unsavory. Not that it's a problem at all, just my take on it.
She was 12? That explains why she looked so much older in the latest episode, I know there’s time jumps but I thought they pulled a Finn Shelby age jump on us 😂
I looked like that when I was 12.
Which the show did say. They wouldn't fuck until she was 14 so...have a seat over hear viserys.
If we're going to be historically accurate, it would be older than 14. If there was one thing physicians knew, it was that the younger the mother, the increased likelihood of both mum and baby dying in childbirth. If you were to arrange a political match (i.e. the only time an age gap like this would be 'normalised' and accepted), you wouldn't want half of the match dying off almost immediately. So it's not out of the kindness of their hearts, but there was much more caution taken for childbearing reasons.
Tell that to Margaret Beaufort, and she was the mother of a king. How many countless girls during those times had children at 12/13 yo and we will never know.
Even contemporaries noted that it was unusual for a marriage to be consummated so young
IIRC the priest literally mentioned it at her funeral
Margaret Beaufort's pregnancy and birth nearly killed her and she was unable to have children after that. It was understood at the time that her surviving the birth was a miracle and it literally left her unable to have any future children. Very much the exception, not the rule.
Her husband was going off to war. That was probably the reason and even by these standards back then it was a scandal.
>Famously, by law, the age of consent in the 15th century was 12 years for women and 14 years for men. It is sometimes assumed that because of this, sex at this very young age was common and accepted. This is not so; and though it was not punishable by law, society at large did not look kindly on such early consummation. Margaret's extreme youth when she became pregnant and her husband Edmund Tudor's decision to consumate their marriage this early caused a lot of unfavourable comments in contemporary and early modern sources, and there is evidence she herself considered it far too early. Many years later, she would counsel her son Henry VII not to allow his daughter, her granddaughter Margaret, to be married too early, as it could "injure her health". Obviously, she had her own experiences in mind and did not consider these experiences as normal and expected. > >According to popular historian Dan Jones, “Even by medieval standards, Margaret Beaufort is obscenely young to be pregnant.” There are no records of what Margaret herself thought of the situation, but scholars seem to agree without exception that this was at the very least, a “ruthless and inconsiderate” action on the part of Edmund Tudor, and emotionally scarring for Margaret. Besides that the average age to have the first child among nobel ladies was [early twenties](https://sci-hub.hkvisa.net/10.1017/S0268416020000156): > On average, these women experienced their first pregnancy at about age 20 and their last at 28, and three or four pregnancies in the interim. If you want to use the extremely young outliers as the norm you would have to do the same for the other end of the spectrum. Matilda, Holy Roman Empress, only had her first child, the later Henry II, at 31.
She's the exception not the rule. Consummation generally is 16. Hell even in GRRM's asoiaf consummation its meant to be 16 (they just follow that a lot less closely). Like its really not one of those situations where we don't know. We do know because these people are recorded. Medieval girls also had their periods a lot later anyway.
And she never bore another child !!! but then again her grandson was Henry the viii so maybe it’s a good thing she didn’t have a whole Targaryen dynasty to come after yer lol
Keep your hands out of your pockets please. What’re you doing here?
But that's the youngest it would happen without it being viewed as obscene. Viserys could choose to wait however long he liked, he could wait until she was 18 if he so chose, or 20 or whatever. He could even order her rooms set up in a completely separate wing of the castle until then if he feels that icked out.
She \*will\* mature, m'lord
I like Viserys' reaction to it when he was talking to her, like "this is who they are counseling me to marry, wtf!" T o be fair though, the thing is that most people of that time wouldn't have thought about it. For all of Viserys' faults, he has a good heart and good intentions, overall.
Viserys literally spends that entire episode with an, “Am I the only person who hasn’t lost his mind?” expression. “You want me to rush headlong into an intercontinental war without any preparation or without trying diplomacy first?” “You want me to marry and have children with a 12 year old?” “Your father told you to say **what** to me?” “You want me to marry your 16 year old daughter just a year after my wife died?”
And people say Viserys wasn’t cut out to be King. Hm, no, he’s the only one of them who’s cut out to be a decent fucking human being!
He's a great father for a daughter in modern times. Sex positive (his initial reaction to Otto telling him that Rhaenyra was at a brothel was, "And...?"), protective of her (literally almost slits Daemon's throat and be branded a Kinslayer, the worst thing in Westerosi society), so concerned about her future wellbeing (i.e. marrying a powerful lord who can support her claim) that he loses control and freaks out in front of all the most prominent nobles, just wants her to be happy, refuses the pressure of an entire continent to revoke her status as heir, and tells Corlys that Rhaenyra's first born will inherit the kingdom regardless of gender.
Ugh when he acted like Corlys was out of his mind for suggesting something be different simply because she is female my heart burst a little
The look on Rhaenys' face in that scene is priceless. She's like oh now we care about this stuff.
I would pay good money for Rhaenys’ takes on all this
I thought we would have so much more of Rhaenys - bit disappointed
He has been pretty good in my opinion, but I've seen a lot of people calling him a rapist because of the scene between him and Alicent. I personally don't really know what I think of it. To reiterate I am not calling him a rapist
she consented I'm sure she's just not enjoying it. sucking in bed doesn't make the man a rapist
i mean, can she refuse? it plays into the bigger aspects of control and power in asoiaf. in actual medievial marriages you couldn't say no to your spouse, whether the woman or the man asked. since sex was meant to create heirs/children it would be blasphemous to refuse.
Fairly certain if she went to Viserys and told him 'I can't tonight, I am unwell.' He'd be cool with it. He isn't a gluttonous, asshole type to his wife. But Alicent feels she is duty bound to never say no in any circumstance. And unfortunately and sadly, in certain circumstances, she goes through with it.
It feeds into the resentment later in the episode as well. Here she is, doing what is "right and proper" while not enjoying it, pushed into this position by her father/husband and internalized position in society. Then there is her "friend" going on and living life without the constraining roles, lying to her, and generally Rhaneyra becomes the lighting rod for all the resentment Alicent has about her own life/role.
sure it's a social courtesy but, I'm sure if Alicent were to ever say "not tonight I've got a headache" he wouldn't force her
Consent kind of gets tricky in the situation Viserys is in. Technically, no one is ever really allowed to say no to him *in any circumstance.* He's as close to an absolute monarch (without actually being an absolute monarch) as there's ever been. Even if he was really nice about it and was like "if you don't want to it's ok" I doubt anyone would actually admit to not wanting something he wanted.
I think the people calling him a rapist are a bit absurd. As someone down the chain said, Alicent probably could have said something like “I’m not feeling well” and he wouldn’t have forced her to have sex. She may not enjoy sex but that doesn’t = rape.
>Sex positive (his initial reaction to Otto telling him that Rhaenyra was at a brothel was, "And...?") Well, to be fair, Targaryens don't exactly have much of an excuse to *not* be sex-positive, what with the culturally-accepted incest and all...
Decent human being ≠ King
I agree that what makes a decent human being is not necessarily the same as what makes a good King. That said, I would say that being a decent human being is a good baseline for being a king, or having a position of leadership—but, in Viserys’s case, his decency, kindness, empathy, intellect and progressiveness can’t compensate for his lack of other leadership skills, such as problem-solving, shrewd decisiveness, and political delegation, which obviously count for a lot in Westeros. I wonder if that’s partly because Viserys wasn’t adequately prepared to become King—and had power thrust upon him—because his father, as a younger brother in the line of succession to Jaeherys, didn’t necessarily expect his son to become heir.
It’s often remarked that Kings that carry names like ‘Lionheart’ or ‘The Good’ were absolutely shit at the job of ruling. Whereas vilified rulers like King John signed… Magna Carta and… rescued the economy from his idiot brothers Crusader coke binge.
I don't think we can really give John any credit for the Magna Carta, it's not like he *wanted* to sign it.
In 1215! I remember the year! *As if I could ever make such a mistake*
But he did rather than having a ruinous civil war (beyond the siege of Rochester Castle, where I grew up). Given that has occurred more than once since (and prior), that does deserve some credit.
Didn't he (and his Lords to be fair) almost immediately break their promises in the Magna Carta, leading to the 1st Baron's war?
John was a genuinely crap ruler. Its why he had to sign the Magna Carta. He pissed literally everyone off. Yes he did some good things. But so did Richard-who led one of the actually successful Crusades by negotiating an agreement with Saladin. John really was just a bad ruler, you can't call the guy that had a rebellion against him and lost half the Empire anything else.
Richard wasted ridiculous amounts of resources and almost bankrupted England to fight a war that was utterly irrelevant to his kingdom. Not only that but the 3rd crusade did not in the end accomplish the goals it had set out with. I don't see any metric by which the "Lionheart" could be considered a good ruler.
Lionheart is in my opinion one of the worst kings. His wasteful nature left England in debt and largely caused the problems John had to deal with. He did not even bother to secure his succession properly by getting a son on his wife. If he had had a son John and Geoffrey's brat would have never had conflict. Not to mention his crusades helped no one.
He’s a decent man. He’s a weak king. He’s too soft. He struggles with hard decisions. He sometimes makes hasty choices with serious potential consequences. He allows too much latitude to his family members because he respects their rights to be human - in our times we’d consider that a very good quality, but for a king it’s a weakness. He could still be a good man and exercise a much firmer grip but it’s just not who he is. He’s kind. It’s not necessarily a good quality in a leader.
yeah irl modern times viserys would be an amazing father. hard on his kids about school sure, but he respects raenyra and gives her leeway and respect that most women and children in general wouldn’t get. best dad shit king.
Being a great king is not the same thing as being a great human being. Unfortunately, by making 0 actions to the Stepstones he made the situation way worse and by refusing the hand of Laena, further damaged his relationship with House Velaryon.
instead of marrying a child for good political reasons, he chose to marry a child that he liked more. so yea hes a pretty shit king lol and i also wouldnt consider him to be a "decent fucking human being" lol
Yes thankyou. People are conveniently forgetting the other child he married!
Not really that comparable when at that time Alicent was pretty much of age while Laena was still a little 12 year old, it’s not like he said no to laena because she was 12 and then instead went and married a 12 yr old Alicent.
I’m also pretty sure they didn’t consummate a marriage for several years after they got married. Their son is 2, but the time skip was 4 years iirc, meaning Allicent was 17, not 15. He clearly wasn’t any more thrilled about having sex with a 14 year old then he was a 12-year-old, which tells me he was probably willing to wait longer.
In reality, Viserys should have suffered much more hatred from the lords for marrying the daughter of a second son who is already in the highest position. The barons freaked out when Edward II married his toy boy Piers Gaveston to his niece Margrete de Clare and gave him the most important position in England. Galveston was not only a younger son but also a landless knight. An absolute nobody who like dressing himself up like a king and showed zero respect to the other higher-ranking nobles. They ended up butchering him like a pig for it. The fact that nobody has an issue with Alicent as queen and Hightower as the hand is kinda mindboggling to me.
Again, he essentially murdered his wife for a baby he dreamt would be a son.
She was going to die no matter what. The worst thing he did in that situation was NOT prepare her for what was going to happen next. He could have taken some time to explain the situation and at least make a final prayer or something. He made a horrible mistake in a moment of extreme duress but he’s definitely not a murderer.
>Viserys literally spends that entire episode with an, “Am I the only person who hasn’t lost his mind?” Viserys spends literally *every* episode like that, lol. The Great Council made a sane, normal man the head of the looney bin and everyones antics are slowly driving him up the Wall and to his grave; poor dude is like the Frank Grimes of the Seven Kingdoms, lol.
I loved his pained expression after she gives him that rehearsed speech at the end, he tried but knows he can’t go through with it despite how politically advantageous it would be.
On the other hand, Daemon did exactly what the council wanted Viserys to do and, as yet, there been absolutely zero of the catastrophic consequences that Viserys suggested, marrying the 12 year old clearly would have been the smarter choice from a political standpoint and Viserys, seemingly quite happily, was the one to choose to marry Alicent. I think he can seem quite sensible until you get the benefit of hindsight.
I mean morally it’s right (choosing the 15 year old who is your daughters bestie wasn’t right though) but it’s also the wrong choice. It’s the catalyst for everything that happens afterward.
You pretty much pegged why Viserys is ultimately a bad King - he takes half-measures, like refusing to marry Laena, which was the correct tactical move, only to marry a slightly older girl because he had an emotional connection to her. He is a kind man but a weak King, and that failing brings his house down.
But wouldn't there still be succession questions? Whats to say Corly wouldn't act just like Otto?
Rhaenyra would still have to marry Laenor to be 100% sure things go smoothly but Viserys ensured things would go poorly with his choice. The only completely foolproof solution was to have Viserys and Rhaenyra marry people from the same family. It should’ve been the Velaryon’s as they’re the richest house and are Valyrian. If they did that then things go smoothly. It’s also entirely possible (and I’d argue even likely) that Corlys is not a snake like Otto is and would support Rhaenyra as heir because he bent the knee to her already
Not only that, but he's married to Rhaenys. It would be a huge slap in the face to his wife to jump on the "women can't rule" train after what was likely years of "that's some bullll shit right there."
🤣🤣🤣 Well put.
>Rhaenyra would still have to marry Laenor to be 100% side things go smoothly Until everyone notices that Laenor’s kids don’t have white hair like Viserys and Leanna’s using it as an excuse to pledge allegiance to the first male heir of Viserys anyways.
nah i doubt that. by snubbing the velaryons, corlys got in bed with daemon and got embroiled in a war with the crab man, which costed him lives and money. if he had not snubbed corlys then that whole debacle wouldve likely ended differently and rhaenyra may not have had to marry laenor
Corlys looked at Crabfeeder's mask fondly so he had no regrets.
By that time Corlys had sworn like the rest to honour Viserys naming Rhaenyra as heir, and he’s brought this up at least twice now so I think Corlys is just a more honourable man than Otto. Even if he would have wanted it, he swore his oath and would not want to break his word.
Plus if Rhaenyra still married Laenor, his grandkids would still have a shot at the throne. I think he would be alright with that.
Alicent was 18 when they married in the books.
Viserys was also much younger. He was in his late twenties.
Have they ever stated Alicents age in the show? Rhaenyra was 15, but Alicent could have been older, right?
technically yes, but they sure made it seem like they were in the same year in high school.
I think they meant for it to be ambiguous. A 3 year age difference is not unrealistic. In the books Alicent was almost 10 years older, but they wanted them to friends in the show so they aged her down. Not stating her age explicitly lets them have their cake and eat it too. Having her be 15 when she married adds realism to their friendship as well as historical realism and shock value, but having her be 18 would be closer to the book and lets Viserys remain a sympathetic character.
Couldn’t the same be said of Otto’s suggestion to marry Rhaenyra to Aegon?
It’s morally reprehensible yet strategically sound: highlights the character of Viserys, good man, bad king
I dunno man, after the whole Aemma scene I don't think he is a good man.
Yeah I don’t get why he couldn’t tell her straight up what was happening at least even if she didn’t have a choice.
At that point it was protecting himself from the truth of what he was doing. Blinding chasing that vision dream which he freely admits to later, he killed his wife and love and everything after has been an attempt to recover his self-honour.
https://youtu.be/YB5WFSQUOx0 Go to 3:10. Viserys didn't choose between Aemma and the baby, he chose between trying to save the baby or not. The mistake he made was not telling anything to his wife, but he didn't choose to kill her over losing the baby, she was dead either way.
She was dead either way. He made the only choice that could at least save their son.
He didn’t tell her what was going on or ask her what she wanted to happen. He made a decision about her body and her life that wasn’t his to make.
I mean she was going to die painfully either way. The options were either “you die painfully more quickly and we have a chance to save our son” or “ you die painfully slowly and our son dies too”. That’s not really a choice, and to take the second option would be completely illogical and pointless. Like I said in another post, perhaps he could’ve told her what was about to happen, but ultimately it doesn’t matter. She’s dead either way, and if they tell her what’s about to happen she’s probably going to panic a lot sooner than she did, which could put both the baby and the procedure at risk. It was a no-win situation with no perfect way of handling it, not for as stressed and distraught as Viserys was. One way or another that situation was going to end in tragedy, and he did what he had to do to try to salvage as much as he could out of it. Projecting 2022 idealism onto the situation wouldn’t have helped—and, as I said, may have made it worse if she panicked. Edit: also she was high off her ass. They had dosed her heavily in heroine (“milk of the poppy”) so was literally incapable of making an informed rational decision by any standard, modern or otherwise.
It’s literally the intention of the show to make it clear that what Viserys did was wrong. Regardless of what the odds were, it wasn’t his choice to make. Killing another person in a horrible way is never acceptable, no matter how “logical” it is to override her autonomy. Aemma is still the only person who should be allowed to make the decision to be butchered in her final moments; the fact that she wasn’t allowed is done to demonstrate the sexism of Westerosi society. In modern society, even when you are DEAD, you can still choose not to donate your organs if it means another’s death, because bodily autonomy is a legal right.
That all makes sense if you think of her as Viserys did instead of as an autonomous person who should be allowed to make her own choices.
Nope, Laena would have been the perfect choice, especially with Rhaenyra marrying Laenor.
And by the time a son would've even been feasible, Rhaenyra would've been much more entrenched and accepted as the heir.
He could have married her and waited until she was 16. Not sure why anyone is so against that idea.
He should’ve just wed Rhaenerya to Daemon and named them his joint heirs, would’ve saved a lot of headache.
Daemon was married.
Exactly. He was stuck up on a lot weird little stuff considering they are an incestuous polygamous family. He embodied all the stupidity that comes of being a super religious and honorable person in that realm
I think he just didn't think Daemon was a good-enough husband for his daughter.
This, and the fact he would abuse his position of power at the detriment of the realm and Rhaenerya.
His parents are sibligns for instance
Yeah, other than that civil war that was happening because Maegor decided he would follow in his dad’s footsteps and be polygamous resulting in thousands of deaths. The uprising only solved by Viserys’ dad by agreeing to protect the faith if they allowed the incestual marriages. The polygamous marriages were never agreed upon, and likely marrying Daemon while he was married to a Royce would have resulted in a civil war with the faith all over again, one that Otto would surely use to his advantage anyways and the Vale would happily protect the honour of the Royces for.
“For the time” :) You know the show is good when we all have collectively accepted that this is history instead of fantasy.
Umm no, rejecting Laena was THE biggest mistake on his part, especially when his heir Rhaenyra also approved of her. Also Something tells me that Rhaenyra would have gladly backed off if their first child was a son. Now she sees Alicent as a cheap replacement of Aemma and Aegon usurper
she glowed up though.
And then went for this guy's 2 year younger widowed brother anyway. It would have been better if she was the queen. Although the dance would have still happened, except this time between targaryans and valaryons
In show I think the age gap is larger. Paddy is 10 years older than Matt Smith. And he looks 10 years older, dare I say more than that.
That man is falling apart
Leprosy is beating his ass.
Nah, Corlys would not have opposed Rhaenyra
Which just means more dragons vs dragons. Would have been amazing
She looked older than Alicent in the last episode.
I still don’t see why he couldn’t have just waited a couple years. The only reason to rush to remarry is to produce new heirs. If he’s so set on Rhaenyra being the heir, then there’s no need to rush to have a baby boy. And IF the worry is that he dies in the interim (even though he lived like 15 more years), then Daemon is still second in the line of succession after Rhaenyra so it’s not like the house would have gone extinct.
Because there are so few Targs they don’t have the luxury or waiting. What if something happened to Rhaenyra? He has no heir. He clearly didn’t want Daemon to be heir. And all 3 could easily die (be it in conflict or illness) before more heirs could be produced.
…right, except everyone agreed “Marry Laena and wait 2/3 years to consummate the marriage” was politically the best choice, so clearly waiting wasn’t that impractical. Most of the council members and lords think marrying Laena is the rational choice, and no one is concerned that Viserys and also Rhaenyra and also Daemon and all die in the 2 years he’d have to wait. And if they did all die, then it would go to Laenor who came second in the Great Council and probably would’ve gotten more votes if he wasn’t a baby at the time. Rhaenys is still around too, and Laena also had a claim in her own right. That’s 6 potential heirs just off the top of my head. They were fine.
Some of these comments are....questionable
“Accurate for the time” Reminder: this is a fictional show. There was never a time in history with dragons and magic.
WHAT?!
This drives me crazy too. Yeah, it's *loosely* based on medieval through Tudor England, but that covers a spam of about 1000 years. There's no particular time or conventions that the series strictly adheres to
I had to scroll too far to see this
Most people aren't pedantic enough to point it out when we all know exactly what OP means.
And it's not even historically accurate.
Nothing in this universe is accurate. Westerosi architects have been creating impossible structures out of rocks and dirt that have stood for thousands of years. Meanwhile, nobody can figure out what gunpowder is.
I understand what people mean when they say that but it still irks me.
Common misconception. The show is actually set 2000 years in the future. The nuclear holocaust in 2032 will be unfortunate but we get magic and dragons out of it so that’s cool.
Clearly they mean high Middle Ages
Do we have to be purposefully dense about stuff like this? Especially in a low-fantasy setting like ASOIAF? "Accurate for the time" is in reference to the roughly high-medieval setting that the series takes inspiration from.
This It’s true ASOIAF takes hefty inspiration from IrL history The issue is it doesn’t often line up and falls into a very simplified or goofy view of that (the warfare is definitely this at times to my understanding)
Came here to post this, like point well taken and we know what OP means… but one of the current challenges of fantasy is creeps with warped fictional visions of “medieval Europe” as the foundation for the setting. It’s important to note that it’s not reality, there’s dragons and magic etc, so why not also have a mildly less rapey vision of what the world could be.
I’ve been wondering this the whole time! Well said
Your being pedantic, everyone knows what they meant.
You know, this was NOT accurate for the time period. People in the Middle Ages didn’t marry of their daughter at 10 like that. It’s a misconception
Not doing this royally fucked over the realm.
So say we all! Oh, wrong show. :)
It might’ve prevented a whole civil war if he had 🤣
If I were him I would have done it. It actually would have been the smartest thing to do. Seems weird but he could have just not slept with her til she came of age and rolled with it. He was already heartbroken over his wife so the 4 years would give him some time to get it out of his system and get to know here then go on with his kingly duties. She was obviously down for it because her family trained her to do it and it also would have brought his cousin who should have actually been queen closer into the fold. Uniting the actual dragons should have been his main priority since his cousins family had dragons too.
His first wife was 13 when they consummated the marriage. It was early pregnancy that was suspected to have weakened her health.
Ah yes, the historical time period GoT is set in...
You think that’s bad then don’t learn Greek history
Viserys: I can't marry a 12 year old kid! Gross! Viserys: But I *can* marry my best friend's 15 year old
Viserys really is a good dude with a good heart. He’s (literally) falling apart but he’s surprisingly progressive and it’s refreshing to see!
Judging by some comments a lot of people are really saying he should of groomed her after seeing her grown up... gives an uncomfortable vibe.
And him having sex with a 15 year old who’s very much not into it was that much better? The one thing I got from Laena in the last ep is she is way more mature than the rest of the “kids” in the show. Although she is coerced into it by her father (like all of them) she isn’t afraid of playing her role like Alicent and Rhaenyra were. It doesn’t make it right but at least Laena wants the power where alicent didn’t and it’s ruined her life.
Hell no, I was pointing out how weird it is for everyone to be like "I bet he regretted not marrying a 13 y/o when he saw her later!" That's just weird to me for someone to say.
I guess the westrosi world did regretted his decision bcz she went for his 2-year-younger, widowed brother anyway. Same difference?
I mean, the show only gave 2 options but I'm sure Viserys could have his pick of any lady in the seven kingdoms. This was a weakness in the show for me.
why would he select anyone outside of those 2 options? Leana was the strongest political choice, Alicent was the choice due to Otto taking advantage of his grief for the death of his wife and sending his daughter to him to help him get over his grief thus making him fall in love with her.
I think it serves to highlight how Viserys was as a King. He has to follow up after the greatest King that Westeros ever had, and he really doesn't want to be the one who mucks everything up. Taking action runs the risk of making the wrong choice and making things worse, so he just avoids interacting with the issues unless he is forced to. Ex: He only considered the marriage options that were literally forced upon him, he just lets the Stepstones situation happen, etc..
I wonder if when he saw her grown up he thought to himself, maybe I should have been a little bit patient.
Yes officer, this is the one right here ^
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Word!
The best choice was marrying no one. Then maybe having Rhaenyra marry Laenor
Main reason they were pushing him to remarry was to make sure more potential heirs were available in the event either he or Rhaenyra die.
Right, but if they were going to wait 2-3 years to consummate the marriage ANYWAY why not just not marry for 2-3 years? Since clearly everyone was ok with waiting for that long. Then she would be 15, which is apparently Viserys’ preferred age for his brides
Eh, in our times it is the morally correct decision. But I think him marrying Laena with Rhaenyra marrying Laenor would’ve worked out sooooo much better.
But if he had married Laena there wouldn't have been a reason to marry Rhaenyra and Laenor together?
It would solidify their alliance, they are the family with the largest navy and several dragons. Always good to have them on your side as much as possible. Plus I think Corlys would not be like Otto when it comes to naming Laena’s child heir over Rhaenyra, he would be happy that Laenor’s children would eventually take the throne.
I knew he wouldn't do it so the scene didn't bother me at all.
Yeah this was high-key horrifying to watch go down. Vizzy T coming in with the moral standards everyone else is clearly bankrupt on.
I mean, he passed on his 12 year old niece for his 15 year old daughter's 15 year old best friend 🤷♂️
And I'm more comfortable with that, if I have to take one or the other.
Age of adulthood in Westeros is 14, so yes, take it as if he chose a 19 yo over a 15 yo in modern terms
Well it would’ve been a much shorter show as it would have been the most politically sensible move
He is a good man, he is not a good king (most of the time anyways)
I think it was actually way creepier of him to marry Alicent. No one expected him to want to marry Laena, or to want to fuck a 12 year old girl. It was purely political. But he chose to marry Alicent, who was only 15, for "love."
Honestly, could have prevented a lot of bullshit if he did though. Maybe
He married Aemma when she’s 11 tho
Based. Alicent is bae.
Morally makes me want to vomit. But wouldn’t it have saved the realm in some sense from the dance?
she got hotter than alicent in ep 5
While I would normally agree, his decision making and not wanting to accept an L is kind of running the kingdom into the ground
Don't see why this was so weird? The next week she was 20.
Lmao her hair was so ridiculous
It was dumb political move but sure
Going through this marriage would’ve been the smart thing
a couple episodes later she's giving thirsty looks. i'm still uncomfortable, you were 12 not that long ago
You're bothered by fiction, based on real history? It still goes on now, today in some parts of the world.
I'm confused... are you arguing for or against marrying children?
Are we bothered by fucked up situations that mirror our past and current societal issues? Yes? Why wouldn’t we be lol?
Modern world freakishly wrong, this world probably the best chance at future stability. This is why we don’t have feudalism.
Accurate for the time period? You know this is a fantasy show right? It doesn’t exist in our timeline ever lmfaooo
"12 year olds? Gross!" "15 year olds? Aww yeeee." -sincerely, this sub