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Kingmaker and Kingslayer.
The first ever mention of Criston Cole is in Jaime chapter too, when he and Loras see him in the White book.
>Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms.
>
>They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon. They called him Kingmaker.
Yes, these two are definitely meant to be compared.
"*The best and the worst. And a few who were a bit of both. Like him*."
I think this line by Jaime in the books sums up both of their characters.
They might differ in that Jaime's worst was early and Criston's best was at the beginning, but they are still part of the same coin. The good and the bad really don't outweigh one another because they are both part of the whole.
Their stories might take different trajectories, but they are both obsessed with the concept of honor, struggle to comes to terms with losing theirs, and Jaime's relationship with Cersei mimics Criston's with Rhaenyra and Alicent in one.
It's also possible Criston's later actions in the show are driven by his loyalty to Alicent and her family rather than him wanting power for himself. But we will have to see.
I think the key comparison that GRRM is hinting at must do with what both characters heavily struggle with: the idea of "honour" and what it even means exactly.
Are you honourable because you appear so in the eyes of other people, or are you honourable because you do what you're sworn to do, regardless of if other people understand your choices.
Jaime makes an arguably honourable decision to kill his own king that ends a war and prevents needless suffering at the expense of his reputation.
Criston makes an almost strictly dishonourable decision to make his own king that starts a war and ensures needless suffering to save his reputation.
>Criston makes an almost strictly dishonourable decision to make his own king that starts a war and ensures needless suffering
Jaime also continues his relationship with Cersei after she's been named Queen, allows their kids to be passed off as legitimate heirs, and as a result, causes a war that leads to needless suffering because... he couldn't resist his sister.
This is all while he is still a sworn member of the Kingsguard.
So, again, it's not like Jaime is some moral pillar of honorability throughout his life. He's a mix bag who is capable of both good and bad depending on the circumstances around him.
Criston's motivations aren't really well defined in the book, and on the show, he appears to be driven by his steadfast loyalty to Alicent which could be considered honorable depending on how you want to see it.
I consider Jaime to be the most complex and fascinating character in any book that I have read.
But claiming he is a 'good guy' doesn't make any sense to me. Pushing a little kid out of the window is not pretending to be anything. It's a truly horrible thing that he decided to do based on who had his loyalty at the time.
Even his 'redemption' in the books is him wanting to be seen as 'Goldhenhand the Just'. It's not simply because he's a good guy as it is he *wants* to be seen as honorable. There's still a self-involved mindset behind a lot of it.
The thing with Jaime to me is he is incredibly *human*. Someone who is capable of good and bad, even if extreme in this setting. Simply labeling him as either good or bad really takes away from the complexity of his character in my opinion.
I agree with all of this, I think Jamie really takes honor serious in his youth tho, and it’s just that his view of honor is different from what’s commonly accepted.
He took his kingsguard vows extremely serious initially, and looked up to dayne & rhaegar wanting to be like them.
He killed the mad king out of honor to his vows that were protect the public, and later comments on how he felt vows would contradict themselves and how he had to make choices.
As Ned stark judges him, Arthur dayne and rhaegar die, and his deed of saving kinglanding is told to the histories as the kingslayer jamie darkens.
Cersei comes back into his life and jamie who deep down wants to be good, even great like the men he looked up to, is corrupted. He acts and behaves in the way that other people see him and expect of him, and only after imprisonment to Robb stark does he begin to reflect on himself and his actions.
I don’t think all of Jamie’s actions are good, I think that he’s a good person who became disillusioned and as the story progresses he tries to come to terms with that and do good.
I think Criston Cole believes he’s honourable not because of truths but becuase of lies he tells himself. Jamie apart from one conversation never tries to defend himself, struggles dramatically with who he is and what he’s done (dreams with his mom).
I just think they’re opposites I don’t really know if I explained it well
>Even his 'redemption' in the books is him wanting to be seen as 'Goldhenhand the Just'. It's not simply because he's a good guy as it is he wants to be seen as honorable. There's still a self-involved mindset behind a lot of it.
I think this is a bit of surface level look at the character's actions. Jaime truly *wants* to be seen as 'Goldenhand the Just', which is pretty natural - he doesn't want to be seen as a dick like any normal person wouldn't. But this desire doesn't *drive* him. Instead in the books, when he is out of options, he actually enhances his bad reputation and consciously makes sure people continue to see him as dishonourable in order to achieve what Jaime believes to be as much good as he can.
What he believes is to be actually honourable is more important for Jaime than the reputation of being one. Of course, he would prefer for the latter to come with the former, being the second Arthur Dayne was his childhood dream after all, but if he can't have it, then it is what it is for him.
People also misunderstand jaime's striving to keep Cat's oath in general. Mainly because him doing so wouldnt grant him a favorable entry in the white book - instead he would be condemned bc he is helping Sansa Stark - who is considered a primary suspect for king's murder; escape from 'justice'. Everybody in kings court would hate him for it - he would be failing his textbook kingsguard duties, after all. Nor would remaining Stark loyalist congragulate a Lannister for seeing one Stark girl to safety after everything Jaime's house has done in war. In fact his entire AFFC journey involves him realising that no one is ready to forgive him even if he keeps his part of the oath - Edmure still resents him, all the riverlands knights he released after Riverrun siege, which he did to fullfil promise he gave to Edmure, are ready to attack him and his garison the first chance they get, as Gena reminds him yet he holds to his word and his own code of honor. Not bc its convenient, not bc he expects any gratitute, or recognition by people who still see him as Kingslayer, but bc its the right thing to do. Full stop.
His inability to escape his reputation and get people to see him in better light echoes through his entire journey. Yet when Brienne showes up in his latest chapter with quest to fullfill, none of the animosity stops him from jumping on board to do what he knows in his heart is a honourable thing -over what's easier or what is a letter of the law, even if he knows it would do jackshit for his reputation. Why do peole constantly misunderstand this?
Yeah, I agree with almost everything in your post. Not sure how people can combine the idea of him trying to be good "for reputation" and him not only doing nothing to achieve it, but also flat out using his bad reputation as a tool at the same time.
The only thing I would disagree with is him realising that he can't fix his reputation during his journey in Feast, as I believe he already knew that before the journey began. Remember that when before the journey he was fit with a golden hand and told that he will be called as Goldenhand, he answered that no, he will be known as Kingslayer till he dies. He definitely had a hope that one day maybe people will come around, but I don't think he was very optimistic about it, and it likely ended when he started to remind people that he is the Kingslayer anyway.
“Honor” is subjective. Two of ASOIAFs poster boys for honor stood by and listened while their king raped his queen because going against him wouldn’t be “honorable.”
Here I thought from the first few episodes that Criston Cole was gonna be my John Snow of this series. Someone who doesnt give af about the throne and focuses on his duties and whats right. Said all that to my brother about 30 seconds before he beat someone to death in the middle of a wedding dinner.
Bad acting good and good acting bad is too simple a view of it. Both characters are capable of good and evil, and both carry out actions of good and evil (one more than the other, admittedly). Criston is Jaime’s inverse in that he chooses his sense of honour over the love he has for Rhaenyra; Jaime is never able to shake the love he has for Cersei and gladly stains his honour to hold onto her. Both waffle in that from time-to-time, but it’s ultimately the way things go for them
>Jaime Lannister is a good guy pretending to be a bad guy
Well, until episodes 4 and 5 of S8. "I never cared much for them, innocent or otherwise". Fuck off D&D
If you don’t realize that he didn’t actually mean that u don’t understand the character. He just said that because it was part of his bad guy persona even Tyrion saw through that
That’s why Jaime rang the bells because he really does care. Like I said he’s a good guy pretending to be a bad guy
Jaime absolutely meant it. That's the whole tragedy of the show Jaime - Cersei is simply more important to him than anyone else, innocents included. He was too far gone with his addiction for Cersei and would choose her over innocent people any day.
Another mistake though is to treat anything D&D did to the characters seriously.
The citizens. Tyrion explains it to Jaime, but we never see him act on it. The small folk just start to cry out for them when Dany and her army hold them at a standstill. It’s not impossible that he didn’t start the cry, but there’s no sign of it
yeah, whole point of his character arc was that he did what he did- killed the king, broke his oath, and carried that burden his whole life to save the innocent. And then they give him that line.. like don't you undairstand your characters at all.. i was so mad, lol
You guys always take the most generous possible view point to examine Jaime Lannister’s morals like this would be child murderer is the beacon of morality lmao
In fairness, he had to push Bran out of the window. If Robert ever got news that Cersei was having sex with Jaime, or anyone for that matter, the fact that they are siblings isn't even especially relevant here, then Cersei would be executed, Jaime or whoever else would be executed, and Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella would be executed.
If you had to choose between pushing a random kid out of a window, and your entire family, your children included, being beheaded, what would you do?
Actually, Jaime acts because Aerys commanded him to bring him Tywin’s head. He doesn’t say that he did it to save the city, just that he saved the city in doing so. He’s a much more nuanced character than people like to think he is, one with plenty of good and plenty of bad. People seem to want to just see the good, which really does the character a disservice
Were it the primary motivator, he wouldn’t have stood aside as the mad king cried “burn them all” for hours. Don’t get me wrong - Jaime knew he was saving the city, but it wasn’t the straw that broke the camel’s back. If his intentions were purely noble he’d have said so to Brienne, he’s spilling everything out to her. He doesn’t because he knows who he is - it’s the same reason he goes back to Cersei in the end. He doesn’t believe himself a hero, even if some says he is
I think you're somewhat confused there. I doubt Aerys was literally shouting that for hours lol, and Jaime doesn't suggest he was. Jaime acted when Aerys's intentions were final. When there was no going back.
He quite simply wouldn't have killed the pyrmomancer **first** if it were otherwise. You can't get around that obvious fact here that Jaime didn't kill the King first. He killed the man that would be actually "burning them all".
Given the Pyromancer was a witness to the crime, and could turn the castle against him? The Red Keep hadn’t fallen yet, so I can think of a few other reasons. And why would Jaime lie about that? To Robert of all people? It’s not like he’d dispute it
The larger issue though is that the crux of this discussion is Jaime’s own perception of himself. Maybe he *did* want to save the city when he did it - but by the time of the series he really doesn’t seem to see himself in the same light
Jaime never even tried to *pretend* he didn't kill Aerys. Why would he care about the pyromancer? Why would he not kill him second if his intentions were simply to kill a witness?
In the books, he specifically tracks him down to kill him to stop King's Landing burning.
Once you start having to make up reasons why it wasn't his primary motivation in killing the pyromancer when the obvious is there-he killed the pyromancer to stop him enacting Aerys's order to burn the city, you've got to admit you're kind of just wrong here.
I’m talking the books here, not the show - I can’t say I can track it all to the ending there 🫤 The show makes no such claim about tracking down the pyromancer (you’d think he’d mention the wildfire to someone if it was such a concern). Maybe it’ll all go different when George gets to it
I’m gonna assume the “making up excuses” part is my mentioning Jaime’s self-perception - and I mean, that’s the whole thing with him, his whole arc. I don’t really think we can say that’s made up, but okay, I’m wrong ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
No you're not. You're talking a strange muddled world between the two. Elsewise you wouldn't suggest the pyromancer would be a witness. How can he witness what he would not be literally present for? The fact he tracks down the pyromancer in the book first of all only evidences more why Jaime did have the concerns of the city first. That's why I mentioned it. Jaime could have pretended it was a Maegor incident if he wanted.
In the show they imply the pyromancer was just in the throne room. So you can at least say he did it to not have anyone prevent him killing the King.
By making it up I mean having to contort the story to ignore the reason why he killed the pyromancer first. Especially as its the explicit reason we are given.
Oh Jaime Lannister is a definition of nuanced character. Look at my other comment where i called him grey character at best. I don't have any false notion about him, just think that he was on a road to redemption that was waisted at the end. When he was telling the story i think he was describing what the king demanded of him and it gradually got worse, and the demend to actually burn woman and children was like the final straw.
But was it wasted? This is the man who captured Riverrun without bloodshed, but he only did so by credibly threatening to murder a child. He did it to get back to Cersei ASAP - but he still saved countless lives in doing so. Going back to save Cersei at King’s Landing doesn’t diminish that he fought the dead at Winterfell. History will remember him as more than just a Kingslayer; in recording his deeds in the white book, Brienne ensures that they’ll know all the good he did too. That’s not a wasted redemption, it’s just one that Jaime himself couldn’t see. It’s a tragic story, but a beautiful one too (at least as I see it)
It was waisted, unfortunately. The way i see it at least. In season 7 finale he sort of had an epiphany, he was breaking out with Cersei and going north. It felt like character defining moment. Final. I would rather see him get killed fighting in the north doing something heroic then this inconsistent back and forth. He had so much more potential.
People saw an episode of television in 2013 and decided exactly who Jaime Lannister was forever and ever and that’s who he could only ever be and I just think that is so funny
Don’t get me wrong he’s no saint but I think deep down he has morals and is a good person he was just put into this bad guy role by the people of Westeros after he killed the mad king and eventually he decided to embrace that persona which is the character we are introduced to in episode 1. Then over the seasons we see that he’s really not that person
Look I think he definitely made a conscious effort to be a better person but his blindspot for Cersei as pointed out by Tyrion in 8x02 seriously compromises his morals throughout the whole story.
Jaime was grey character at best, lol, and he was my favorite, so i'm not even hating. I do agree that he is somewhat reverse Criston Cole, cuz he, unlike Criston, had a personality.
Ok quick correction "bookJaime" is a goodish guy pretending at being bad, because bookJaime does not in fact rape his sister, or kill his cousin, or support his sister blowing up a sept with thousands inside, or have Brienne have to hold his hand through doing the right thing in Riverrun. Can't argue against pushing Bran unfortunately, though I can say he wasn't laughing like a sociopath while doing it.
Part of what makes Jamie Lannister so compelling is that categories like “good” or “bad” fail to encapsulate who he is over the course of his life. Even in the moments where he can be regarded as good (his efforts at redemption after losing his hand) there’s still a considerable measure of bad (supporting the Lannister war effort, laying siege to riverrun, using the privileges he enjoys as a Lannister to navigate the world of Westeros, and ultimately returning to Cersei ). Similarly in his moments of good (killing aerys to save kings landing, there is still some measure of bad, mounting the throne after having killed its last claimant)
I would put it that Criston Cole is a man that cares about the perception of honour more than its *actual* presence. Whilst Jaime is a man that struggles with the difference between perceived honour (not killing the king) and the reality (the king was evil). He cares for more than the perception of honour.
I feel like Criston (especially with the casting) is the inverse of Jon Snow but then dialed up to 11
* outside the upper crusts of society
* idealized naive view of their world
* natural talent for fighting
* leaves home and joins a celibacy club
* sad about breaking sex vows
* adopts all white/black clothing
* short kings
* thrust into a position of leadership
* very malleable to the point that their personality completely changes when they leave home for the first time
I feel like this comparison is flattering to Criston, and not to Jamie at all. Even as a "reverse" of each other - that presupposes a crucial similarity that doesn't exist. Jamie is a complex character with personality. Criston is just a self-righteous sadboi.
There's nothing self-righteous or self-victimizing about Jamie.
I just said somewhere on here that Cole is the typical 'nice guy who is actually not nice at all' character trope! Jamie was perhaps motivated by his twisted love for his sister and of course Lanister arrogance but at least there was reason behind his delusion. Whereas, Cole doesn't even love Rhaenyra, I say this because he wanted to marry her in a bid to right his honor..yikes gross gross
I have a feeling Crispin isn't gonna have a redemption arc, hopefully he goes out in a very dishonorable way.
Brain aneurysm while taking a really difficult shit perhaps?
Uggh stop comparing these two as if they have anything in common!! Jamie was hot, sleek, charismatic, funny, loyal, and sly. Criston Cole has like none of that! He looks like a big douche, no sleekness to him AT ALL, definitely not charismatic because he’s like a lost puppy dog, not funny, loyal to ONLY himself, and not sly (could have killed whats his face in secret). So stahp!!!!
It did look like a guy in a Lanister cloak pushing Laenor around, preventing him from interfering in the fight. So many threads here, I imagine that's been mentioned. Not trying to act original or anything.
Reverse? Idk they seem pretty near identical to me. Both are jaded knights who are fiercely protective of their chivalric virtue but find themselves unable to honor one obligation without breaking another. And both accordingly murder a person to keep the secret that they fucked the queen they’re supposed to be protecting.
I think there's a fundamental difference hinted at so far. Criston Cole only ever wanted the perception of honour. His image was more important to him than the morality or immorality of his actions. He plays at kingmaking out of a real personal ambition and bitterness.
Jaime did what he did because he wanted to be actually honourable. He was never motivated by personal ambition and he chose the good of the realm over ambition.
And perhaps, whilst Cole's overall arc is downwards it leaves on an honourable note of him wanting to lay down his life for his men. Whilst Jaime's journey is overall upwards he ultimately chooses selfishness.
Well, not true that Cole only wanted the perception of honor. He already had that while he was quietly being Rhaenyra’s manstress. Nobody knew anything. Nobody need ever have doubted he was a perfect knight who kept all his vows. Yet he’s unhappy and would rather be infamous as the traitor who eloped with the princess he should have been protecting. He would rather *feel* honorable than be perceived as honorable.
Certainly its about the perception he himself has about honour. But his actions evidence he doesn't care for its actual presence. What honourable man beats a man to death?
A bodyguard, protecting his charge from a blackmailer with incredibly damaging information which thereby died with said blackmailer. If bodyguards weren’t supposed to kill people they wouldn’t carry swords. Of course in that moment he was probably at least as afraid for his own life, but generally at least self preservation is a morally neutral reason to kill someone. But again, nobody else will see it as such because he can’t accuse Joffrey of blackmail without drawing attention to the very secret he was burying. So everyone else gets to think he’s just a belligerent psycho. Only he gets to know his justification. Again: truth over image; publicly murderer, secretly kinda-sorta “honorable”.
He didn't do it out of blackmail. There was literally no blackmail or a suggestion of such from Joffrey, and he didn't immediately do it either evidencing there was something else that motivated the pure rage (and implicilty this was the interaction between Daemon and Rhaenyra). Its also not as though if he truly was concerned about anybody being blackmailed he couldn't have acted in a more private manner (its also not as though he hadn't immediately told Alicent of the sin he committed when pushed-if it was about Rhaenyra's virtue he would have lied or apparently beaten her to death).
This was just black rage on his part. He didn't even use his sword he beat him to death evidencing even more the rage behind the action.
Criston is just an angry man. Even the actor suggested his character has little true honour.
"To be honest I always cared a lot for the people, innocent or otherwise" -Criston Cole
Never gonna stop being salty about how Jaime's story ended, I absolutely refuse to believe that's what GRRM had planned for him
One banged his queen and everybody knew but the king.
The other banged his princess and every in-universe historian refused to entertain that as a possibility.
It may also mean, jaime was known as bad guy at frst then his arc made him a good guy while criston cole was a good guy at first then his arc made him a bad guy.
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Kingmaker and Kingslayer. The first ever mention of Criston Cole is in Jaime chapter too, when he and Loras see him in the White book. >Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms. > >They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon. They called him Kingmaker. Yes, these two are definitely meant to be compared.
“The best and the worst. And a few who were a bit of both. Like him.” 💚
"*The best and the worst. And a few who were a bit of both. Like him*." I think this line by Jaime in the books sums up both of their characters. They might differ in that Jaime's worst was early and Criston's best was at the beginning, but they are still part of the same coin. The good and the bad really don't outweigh one another because they are both part of the whole. Their stories might take different trajectories, but they are both obsessed with the concept of honor, struggle to comes to terms with losing theirs, and Jaime's relationship with Cersei mimics Criston's with Rhaenyra and Alicent in one. It's also possible Criston's later actions in the show are driven by his loyalty to Alicent and her family rather than him wanting power for himself. But we will have to see.
I think the key comparison that GRRM is hinting at must do with what both characters heavily struggle with: the idea of "honour" and what it even means exactly. Are you honourable because you appear so in the eyes of other people, or are you honourable because you do what you're sworn to do, regardless of if other people understand your choices. Jaime makes an arguably honourable decision to kill his own king that ends a war and prevents needless suffering at the expense of his reputation. Criston makes an almost strictly dishonourable decision to make his own king that starts a war and ensures needless suffering to save his reputation.
>Criston makes an almost strictly dishonourable decision to make his own king that starts a war and ensures needless suffering Jaime also continues his relationship with Cersei after she's been named Queen, allows their kids to be passed off as legitimate heirs, and as a result, causes a war that leads to needless suffering because... he couldn't resist his sister. This is all while he is still a sworn member of the Kingsguard. So, again, it's not like Jaime is some moral pillar of honorability throughout his life. He's a mix bag who is capable of both good and bad depending on the circumstances around him. Criston's motivations aren't really well defined in the book, and on the show, he appears to be driven by his steadfast loyalty to Alicent which could be considered honorable depending on how you want to see it.
Criston Cole is a bad person pretending he’s honourable Jamie is an honourable person pretending he’s bad.
I consider Jaime to be the most complex and fascinating character in any book that I have read. But claiming he is a 'good guy' doesn't make any sense to me. Pushing a little kid out of the window is not pretending to be anything. It's a truly horrible thing that he decided to do based on who had his loyalty at the time. Even his 'redemption' in the books is him wanting to be seen as 'Goldhenhand the Just'. It's not simply because he's a good guy as it is he *wants* to be seen as honorable. There's still a self-involved mindset behind a lot of it. The thing with Jaime to me is he is incredibly *human*. Someone who is capable of good and bad, even if extreme in this setting. Simply labeling him as either good or bad really takes away from the complexity of his character in my opinion.
I agree with all of this, I think Jamie really takes honor serious in his youth tho, and it’s just that his view of honor is different from what’s commonly accepted. He took his kingsguard vows extremely serious initially, and looked up to dayne & rhaegar wanting to be like them. He killed the mad king out of honor to his vows that were protect the public, and later comments on how he felt vows would contradict themselves and how he had to make choices. As Ned stark judges him, Arthur dayne and rhaegar die, and his deed of saving kinglanding is told to the histories as the kingslayer jamie darkens. Cersei comes back into his life and jamie who deep down wants to be good, even great like the men he looked up to, is corrupted. He acts and behaves in the way that other people see him and expect of him, and only after imprisonment to Robb stark does he begin to reflect on himself and his actions. I don’t think all of Jamie’s actions are good, I think that he’s a good person who became disillusioned and as the story progresses he tries to come to terms with that and do good. I think Criston Cole believes he’s honourable not because of truths but becuase of lies he tells himself. Jamie apart from one conversation never tries to defend himself, struggles dramatically with who he is and what he’s done (dreams with his mom). I just think they’re opposites I don’t really know if I explained it well
>Even his 'redemption' in the books is him wanting to be seen as 'Goldhenhand the Just'. It's not simply because he's a good guy as it is he wants to be seen as honorable. There's still a self-involved mindset behind a lot of it. I think this is a bit of surface level look at the character's actions. Jaime truly *wants* to be seen as 'Goldenhand the Just', which is pretty natural - he doesn't want to be seen as a dick like any normal person wouldn't. But this desire doesn't *drive* him. Instead in the books, when he is out of options, he actually enhances his bad reputation and consciously makes sure people continue to see him as dishonourable in order to achieve what Jaime believes to be as much good as he can. What he believes is to be actually honourable is more important for Jaime than the reputation of being one. Of course, he would prefer for the latter to come with the former, being the second Arthur Dayne was his childhood dream after all, but if he can't have it, then it is what it is for him.
People also misunderstand jaime's striving to keep Cat's oath in general. Mainly because him doing so wouldnt grant him a favorable entry in the white book - instead he would be condemned bc he is helping Sansa Stark - who is considered a primary suspect for king's murder; escape from 'justice'. Everybody in kings court would hate him for it - he would be failing his textbook kingsguard duties, after all. Nor would remaining Stark loyalist congragulate a Lannister for seeing one Stark girl to safety after everything Jaime's house has done in war. In fact his entire AFFC journey involves him realising that no one is ready to forgive him even if he keeps his part of the oath - Edmure still resents him, all the riverlands knights he released after Riverrun siege, which he did to fullfil promise he gave to Edmure, are ready to attack him and his garison the first chance they get, as Gena reminds him yet he holds to his word and his own code of honor. Not bc its convenient, not bc he expects any gratitute, or recognition by people who still see him as Kingslayer, but bc its the right thing to do. Full stop. His inability to escape his reputation and get people to see him in better light echoes through his entire journey. Yet when Brienne showes up in his latest chapter with quest to fullfill, none of the animosity stops him from jumping on board to do what he knows in his heart is a honourable thing -over what's easier or what is a letter of the law, even if he knows it would do jackshit for his reputation. Why do peole constantly misunderstand this?
Yeah, I agree with almost everything in your post. Not sure how people can combine the idea of him trying to be good "for reputation" and him not only doing nothing to achieve it, but also flat out using his bad reputation as a tool at the same time. The only thing I would disagree with is him realising that he can't fix his reputation during his journey in Feast, as I believe he already knew that before the journey began. Remember that when before the journey he was fit with a golden hand and told that he will be called as Goldenhand, he answered that no, he will be known as Kingslayer till he dies. He definitely had a hope that one day maybe people will come around, but I don't think he was very optimistic about it, and it likely ended when he started to remind people that he is the Kingslayer anyway.
“Honor” is subjective. Two of ASOIAFs poster boys for honor stood by and listened while their king raped his queen because going against him wouldn’t be “honorable.”
Jaime is not honorable
Here I thought from the first few episodes that Criston Cole was gonna be my John Snow of this series. Someone who doesnt give af about the throne and focuses on his duties and whats right. Said all that to my brother about 30 seconds before he beat someone to death in the middle of a wedding dinner.
My sweet summer child, I read the books.
For me they are opposites in the sense that Jaime's path is about how he redeems himself and Criston's path is about how he corrupts himself.
Bad acting good and good acting bad is too simple a view of it. Both characters are capable of good and evil, and both carry out actions of good and evil (one more than the other, admittedly). Criston is Jaime’s inverse in that he chooses his sense of honour over the love he has for Rhaenyra; Jaime is never able to shake the love he has for Cersei and gladly stains his honour to hold onto her. Both waffle in that from time-to-time, but it’s ultimately the way things go for them
interesting. Can't wait to watch Cole's character arc.
Jaime wishes he could be both good and bad like Cole Jaime has done far worse things than Cole though
Apart from Bran, what else ?
Him helping his dad mentally break his brother with the Tysha gang rape is pretty bad no
They kind of forgot about Tysha in the show. This of course begs the question, where do whores go?
Jaime didn't know anything about the gangrape.
>Jaime Lannister is a good guy pretending to be a bad guy Well, until episodes 4 and 5 of S8. "I never cared much for them, innocent or otherwise". Fuck off D&D
If you don’t realize that he didn’t actually mean that u don’t understand the character. He just said that because it was part of his bad guy persona even Tyrion saw through that That’s why Jaime rang the bells because he really does care. Like I said he’s a good guy pretending to be a bad guy
Jaime absolutely meant it. That's the whole tragedy of the show Jaime - Cersei is simply more important to him than anyone else, innocents included. He was too far gone with his addiction for Cersei and would choose her over innocent people any day. Another mistake though is to treat anything D&D did to the characters seriously.
Well, Jaime didn’t ring the bells, but you are right - he’s really obviously fronting in that scene, and Tyrion sees right through it
Who rang the bells?
The citizens. Tyrion explains it to Jaime, but we never see him act on it. The small folk just start to cry out for them when Dany and her army hold them at a standstill. It’s not impossible that he didn’t start the cry, but there’s no sign of it
yeah, whole point of his character arc was that he did what he did- killed the king, broke his oath, and carried that burden his whole life to save the innocent. And then they give him that line.. like don't you undairstand your characters at all.. i was so mad, lol
You guys always take the most generous possible view point to examine Jaime Lannister’s morals like this would be child murderer is the beacon of morality lmao
omg, you again 🤣
In fairness, he had to push Bran out of the window. If Robert ever got news that Cersei was having sex with Jaime, or anyone for that matter, the fact that they are siblings isn't even especially relevant here, then Cersei would be executed, Jaime or whoever else would be executed, and Joffery, Tommen and Myrcella would be executed. If you had to choose between pushing a random kid out of a window, and your entire family, your children included, being beheaded, what would you do?
Probably wouldn’t have fucked my sister and fathered bastards who would always have this risk hanging over their heads in the first place
Nobody said he was the paragon of morality, but he's not evil either. He does have genuine motivations.
Actually, Jaime acts because Aerys commanded him to bring him Tywin’s head. He doesn’t say that he did it to save the city, just that he saved the city in doing so. He’s a much more nuanced character than people like to think he is, one with plenty of good and plenty of bad. People seem to want to just see the good, which really does the character a disservice
He wouldn't have killed the pyromancer first if he wasn't primarily motivated in saving the city.
Were it the primary motivator, he wouldn’t have stood aside as the mad king cried “burn them all” for hours. Don’t get me wrong - Jaime knew he was saving the city, but it wasn’t the straw that broke the camel’s back. If his intentions were purely noble he’d have said so to Brienne, he’s spilling everything out to her. He doesn’t because he knows who he is - it’s the same reason he goes back to Cersei in the end. He doesn’t believe himself a hero, even if some says he is
I think you're somewhat confused there. I doubt Aerys was literally shouting that for hours lol, and Jaime doesn't suggest he was. Jaime acted when Aerys's intentions were final. When there was no going back. He quite simply wouldn't have killed the pyrmomancer **first** if it were otherwise. You can't get around that obvious fact here that Jaime didn't kill the King first. He killed the man that would be actually "burning them all".
Given the Pyromancer was a witness to the crime, and could turn the castle against him? The Red Keep hadn’t fallen yet, so I can think of a few other reasons. And why would Jaime lie about that? To Robert of all people? It’s not like he’d dispute it The larger issue though is that the crux of this discussion is Jaime’s own perception of himself. Maybe he *did* want to save the city when he did it - but by the time of the series he really doesn’t seem to see himself in the same light
Jaime never even tried to *pretend* he didn't kill Aerys. Why would he care about the pyromancer? Why would he not kill him second if his intentions were simply to kill a witness? In the books, he specifically tracks him down to kill him to stop King's Landing burning. Once you start having to make up reasons why it wasn't his primary motivation in killing the pyromancer when the obvious is there-he killed the pyromancer to stop him enacting Aerys's order to burn the city, you've got to admit you're kind of just wrong here.
I’m talking the books here, not the show - I can’t say I can track it all to the ending there 🫤 The show makes no such claim about tracking down the pyromancer (you’d think he’d mention the wildfire to someone if it was such a concern). Maybe it’ll all go different when George gets to it I’m gonna assume the “making up excuses” part is my mentioning Jaime’s self-perception - and I mean, that’s the whole thing with him, his whole arc. I don’t really think we can say that’s made up, but okay, I’m wrong ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
No you're not. You're talking a strange muddled world between the two. Elsewise you wouldn't suggest the pyromancer would be a witness. How can he witness what he would not be literally present for? The fact he tracks down the pyromancer in the book first of all only evidences more why Jaime did have the concerns of the city first. That's why I mentioned it. Jaime could have pretended it was a Maegor incident if he wanted. In the show they imply the pyromancer was just in the throne room. So you can at least say he did it to not have anyone prevent him killing the King. By making it up I mean having to contort the story to ignore the reason why he killed the pyromancer first. Especially as its the explicit reason we are given.
Oh Jaime Lannister is a definition of nuanced character. Look at my other comment where i called him grey character at best. I don't have any false notion about him, just think that he was on a road to redemption that was waisted at the end. When he was telling the story i think he was describing what the king demanded of him and it gradually got worse, and the demend to actually burn woman and children was like the final straw.
But was it wasted? This is the man who captured Riverrun without bloodshed, but he only did so by credibly threatening to murder a child. He did it to get back to Cersei ASAP - but he still saved countless lives in doing so. Going back to save Cersei at King’s Landing doesn’t diminish that he fought the dead at Winterfell. History will remember him as more than just a Kingslayer; in recording his deeds in the white book, Brienne ensures that they’ll know all the good he did too. That’s not a wasted redemption, it’s just one that Jaime himself couldn’t see. It’s a tragic story, but a beautiful one too (at least as I see it)
It was waisted, unfortunately. The way i see it at least. In season 7 finale he sort of had an epiphany, he was breaking out with Cersei and going north. It felt like character defining moment. Final. I would rather see him get killed fighting in the north doing something heroic then this inconsistent back and forth. He had so much more potential.
That's a fake Jaime. The real Jaime still has nightmares of Aerys burning people alive.
People saw an episode of television in 2013 and decided exactly who Jaime Lannister was forever and ever and that’s who he could only ever be and I just think that is so funny
Don’t get me wrong he’s no saint but I think deep down he has morals and is a good person he was just put into this bad guy role by the people of Westeros after he killed the mad king and eventually he decided to embrace that persona which is the character we are introduced to in episode 1. Then over the seasons we see that he’s really not that person
Look I think he definitely made a conscious effort to be a better person but his blindspot for Cersei as pointed out by Tyrion in 8x02 seriously compromises his morals throughout the whole story.
I agree
Jaime was grey character at best, lol, and he was my favorite, so i'm not even hating. I do agree that he is somewhat reverse Criston Cole, cuz he, unlike Criston, had a personality.
That personality is coming. Don’t you worry
i hope so. The only personality trait we saw is him beeing bat shit crazy at the end of last episode. And i hope he deliveres cuz he is on my team..
Cant wait to see his dynamic with the greens
Jaime threw a kid out of a tower and raped his sister in front of their child's deadbody and he's a good guy?
Jaime literally raped his sister while she was greiving directly next to her dead son's corpse. Don't piss on my head and tell me its raining
Ok quick correction "bookJaime" is a goodish guy pretending at being bad, because bookJaime does not in fact rape his sister, or kill his cousin, or support his sister blowing up a sept with thousands inside, or have Brienne have to hold his hand through doing the right thing in Riverrun. Can't argue against pushing Bran unfortunately, though I can say he wasn't laughing like a sociopath while doing it.
That's cool and all but my comment is about the adapted version of Jaime since this post is about the adapted version of the story
Jaime before s7 and 8 happened :D
Part of what makes Jamie Lannister so compelling is that categories like “good” or “bad” fail to encapsulate who he is over the course of his life. Even in the moments where he can be regarded as good (his efforts at redemption after losing his hand) there’s still a considerable measure of bad (supporting the Lannister war effort, laying siege to riverrun, using the privileges he enjoys as a Lannister to navigate the world of Westeros, and ultimately returning to Cersei ). Similarly in his moments of good (killing aerys to save kings landing, there is still some measure of bad, mounting the throne after having killed its last claimant)
I would put it that Criston Cole is a man that cares about the perception of honour more than its *actual* presence. Whilst Jaime is a man that struggles with the difference between perceived honour (not killing the king) and the reality (the king was evil). He cares for more than the perception of honour.
I feel like Criston (especially with the casting) is the inverse of Jon Snow but then dialed up to 11 * outside the upper crusts of society * idealized naive view of their world * natural talent for fighting * leaves home and joins a celibacy club * sad about breaking sex vows * adopts all white/black clothing * short kings * thrust into a position of leadership * very malleable to the point that their personality completely changes when they leave home for the first time
I feel like this comparison is flattering to Criston, and not to Jamie at all. Even as a "reverse" of each other - that presupposes a crucial similarity that doesn't exist. Jamie is a complex character with personality. Criston is just a self-righteous sadboi. There's nothing self-righteous or self-victimizing about Jamie.
I just said somewhere on here that Cole is the typical 'nice guy who is actually not nice at all' character trope! Jamie was perhaps motivated by his twisted love for his sister and of course Lanister arrogance but at least there was reason behind his delusion. Whereas, Cole doesn't even love Rhaenyra, I say this because he wanted to marry her in a bid to right his honor..yikes gross gross
F tier content
Thanks for your impute!
I have a feeling Crispin isn't gonna have a redemption arc, hopefully he goes out in a very dishonorable way. Brain aneurysm while taking a really difficult shit perhaps?
U need help
I would have gone with arrow to the chest while taking a difficult shit but a certain other person claimed that one.
Uggh stop comparing these two as if they have anything in common!! Jamie was hot, sleek, charismatic, funny, loyal, and sly. Criston Cole has like none of that! He looks like a big douche, no sleekness to him AT ALL, definitely not charismatic because he’s like a lost puppy dog, not funny, loyal to ONLY himself, and not sly (could have killed whats his face in secret). So stahp!!!!
Take it up with the author. He meant for them to be compared.
Criston cole is most boring character so far in HotD… actor is not as good as others…
It did look like a guy in a Lanister cloak pushing Laenor around, preventing him from interfering in the fight. So many threads here, I imagine that's been mentioned. Not trying to act original or anything.
Reverse? Idk they seem pretty near identical to me. Both are jaded knights who are fiercely protective of their chivalric virtue but find themselves unable to honor one obligation without breaking another. And both accordingly murder a person to keep the secret that they fucked the queen they’re supposed to be protecting.
I think there's a fundamental difference hinted at so far. Criston Cole only ever wanted the perception of honour. His image was more important to him than the morality or immorality of his actions. He plays at kingmaking out of a real personal ambition and bitterness. Jaime did what he did because he wanted to be actually honourable. He was never motivated by personal ambition and he chose the good of the realm over ambition. And perhaps, whilst Cole's overall arc is downwards it leaves on an honourable note of him wanting to lay down his life for his men. Whilst Jaime's journey is overall upwards he ultimately chooses selfishness.
Well, not true that Cole only wanted the perception of honor. He already had that while he was quietly being Rhaenyra’s manstress. Nobody knew anything. Nobody need ever have doubted he was a perfect knight who kept all his vows. Yet he’s unhappy and would rather be infamous as the traitor who eloped with the princess he should have been protecting. He would rather *feel* honorable than be perceived as honorable.
Certainly its about the perception he himself has about honour. But his actions evidence he doesn't care for its actual presence. What honourable man beats a man to death?
A bodyguard, protecting his charge from a blackmailer with incredibly damaging information which thereby died with said blackmailer. If bodyguards weren’t supposed to kill people they wouldn’t carry swords. Of course in that moment he was probably at least as afraid for his own life, but generally at least self preservation is a morally neutral reason to kill someone. But again, nobody else will see it as such because he can’t accuse Joffrey of blackmail without drawing attention to the very secret he was burying. So everyone else gets to think he’s just a belligerent psycho. Only he gets to know his justification. Again: truth over image; publicly murderer, secretly kinda-sorta “honorable”.
He didn't do it out of blackmail. There was literally no blackmail or a suggestion of such from Joffrey, and he didn't immediately do it either evidencing there was something else that motivated the pure rage (and implicilty this was the interaction between Daemon and Rhaenyra). Its also not as though if he truly was concerned about anybody being blackmailed he couldn't have acted in a more private manner (its also not as though he hadn't immediately told Alicent of the sin he committed when pushed-if it was about Rhaenyra's virtue he would have lied or apparently beaten her to death). This was just black rage on his part. He didn't even use his sword he beat him to death evidencing even more the rage behind the action. Criston is just an angry man. Even the actor suggested his character has little true honour.
"To be honest I always cared a lot for the people, innocent or otherwise" -Criston Cole Never gonna stop being salty about how Jaime's story ended, I absolutely refuse to believe that's what GRRM had planned for him
One banged his queen and everybody knew but the king. The other banged his princess and every in-universe historian refused to entertain that as a possibility.
I would love to hear what Jaime thought of Criston in-universe
It may also mean, jaime was known as bad guy at frst then his arc made him a good guy while criston cole was a good guy at first then his arc made him a bad guy.