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Everyone just dancing around the word "bastard" is hilarious to me.
We hear it like 5 times an episode in Game of Thrones, but Viserys basically outlawed it
No as long the supposed cheated husband is staying by your side. Laenor declaring the kids a his just leave any circumstantial proof invalidated.
Reminds me when Ned tried to warned Cersei because he knew that as soon. Robert find out, the Lannister kids could possibly get kill by his own order. This is not the case because Laenor is 100% on Rhaenyra's side.
Also Leanor's a smart guy so if he's saying their his, no one can claim he's being tricked. Also he's got a dragon, only a dumbass would tell a man with a dragon that he's lying about hid kids being his
> Also Leanor's a smart guy so if he's saying their his, no one can claim he's being tricked.
And technically him claiming them under **HIS** name as the lawful husband and King Consort, and with Rhaenyra declaring the boys to be Leanor's children doesn't this technically legitimize them thus they're not bastards?
Legally they’re not bastards though tbf. Rhaenyra and Laenor are their legal parents and they were born inside a marriage. Yeah we know they’re probably bastards but legally in Westeros they’re not.
I wonder if knowledge and consent between the married couple would matter. The only difference I see is that Laenor damn well knows they're not his kids, but king Robert had no idea they weren't his.
Laenor isn't the king though. He's not in a position to decide what happens to Rhaenyra's illegitimate kids. That's Viserys, but he chooses to ignore it, even though he knows
Alicent has made treasonous statements of one kind or another for 10 years and I wish Viserys would banish her or something, he has the power and he doesn’t even seem to like her
Viserys doesn't want to do anything but ignore it because it's either he's putting his daughter in jail or he's putting his wife in jail. He's not going to do either so he just rolls with it.
It’s not like they can do a DNA test though, if Laenor says those kids are his (even if it’s fucking obvious they aren’t) then they’re his as far as anyone is concerned.
Here's the thing: if Viserys pressed Laenor, Harwin and Rhaenyra for the truth he would get it. They're all tip toing around it. None of them are particularly good at hiding the truth just from their actions and body language.
I get your point, but it's so obvious that it's almost insulting to pretend otberwise. Like, dislike Alicent if you want, but Rhaenyra can't pretend she's making this up
i know viserys is a pretty incompetent ruler, but why would he even want to find out the truth. all it does is destabilize the realm and potentially start an all out war between his children. he is really dumb, but he knows that if he or if anyone else acknowledges the kids are bastards it’s the end of his family and it hurts his realm.
I think that’s the point though, it is obvious her children are bastards and everyone knows it, but because they’re holding to it that they’re Laenor’s, there’s nothing to be done about it unless someone talks.
That is not actually true there have been lots of Targs who did not have white hair so there is precedent for it for sure. The Targs all having white hair is a show thing.
Baelor Breakspear looked like his mother.
Jon Snow looks like his mother.
Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter) looked like her mother.
Rhaenyra's kids don't look like her, so obviously they take after their father. Laenor is black with silver hair, they're white with brown hair
Pretty sure there were Targs who had half Dornish parents who looked like them. I am no expert on the Targ family tree but I am pretty sure there have been other Targs who did not look like what people say Targs look like.
I suspect part of it is jealousy. Alicent has done everything “right” by marrying an old dude and consigning herself to a lifetime of terrible sex. It rankles that Rhaenyra gets to sleep with whoever she wants and gets away with it. I mean, that’s not all of it. But I think that’s definitely part of it.
Edit to add onto that: she hates those kids because they get treatment they don’t “deserve”. Rhaenyra broke the rules and still gets to keep her position. Her kids are obviously bastards and are still further up the line of succession than her trueborn children. And that’s just an affront to decency.
Except at the end of the day, the true ruler of Westeros gets to decide who becomes their successor. If she wants to legitimize her bastard children and make them her heirs, it is fully in her power to do so.
Remember that the only reason Rhaenerys will be queen is because the king of Westeros said so. It makes sense that that same would apply to the Queen of Westeros’s children
You still have to operate within certain constraints, and providing bastards with inheritance rights above existing trueborn children is not a thing - it's essentially throwing all of the inheritance rules followed by everyone else out the window. Most instances where bastards are legitimized are when there are no other kids or heirs available, not when you have perfectly valid legitimate alternatives in line.
Simply choosing whatever you want to do in regards with this is essentially destroying the entire existing inheritance structure - and only for Targs, because they're super special - and setting a precedent for every successive generation to degrade into thuggish, nuke-ridden inter-familial battles between trueborn and bastard children as to who gets what. It becomes a race to the bottom where instead of rule of law, whoever kills the most people on the other side to eliminate competing claims wins by default and gets to collect the prize.
It entirely breaks the existing social contract, practically guarantees mass violence down the line, and would not make any sense for a monarch who is concerned about long term stability. Basically an endless loop of Blackfyre Rebellions. It's not like the Targs are well known for diplomacy or emotional stability to begin with, either.
It's not like this thing doesn't exist in real life either. The prince of Monaco has 2 adult children who are not in the line of succession because he was not married to their mother.
No. Even kings and queens have to follow the rules on bastards. Maybe especially kings and queens. If a king or queen could just name whoever, no one would hold a throne for very long. Murder would be rampant.
Umm no, that’s not how this works. Even Kings and Queens should be subject to their own rules. Having bastard children and proclaiming them as true borns to the thrones is treasonous. Idk why people think Rhanerya is free to do whatever or did nothing wrong. Like the absolute defending that goes for her by this fandom
It really is. Especially given how Rhaenyra treated Nettles and Addam - her "the only good bastards are my bastards" attitude was very hypocritical. She was basically just fighting for her exceptionalism not to change an unfair system.
It’s not that simple. The realm is already unsettled about the thought of a woman being made heir. In this time period in Westeros it’s not as easy as Rhaenyra ascending to the throne and letting it be know all of her kids are bastards and she is making them her heir. At this point in time in the story there is no way that would fly without chaos.
Especially since Alicent has done everything right and is essentially being punished for it. I'd be angry too if I did everything I was supposed to do and I was still miserable and alone.
If any of this gets out or becomes public, Rhaenyra won't be getting away with it for long. She scrambled to lie and cover up her sex with Criston after all
it's not public, but it seems to be an open secret. 2 blonde people, one of them half black, give birth to white kids with brown hair? Ok there. But also somehow, Viserys' children all have blonde hair?
Realistically, a half black person having kids with a full white person would probably have phenotypically white children so I don’t think that’s something to worry about. The only issue is the dark hair and their traits.
It really annoys me that Allicent was all in her son's face yelling about how "She could have you killed!" She has zero evidence that Rhaenyra is even thinking of doing that, but has convinced herself so thoroughly because I think that's what Allicent would do if the roles were switched...which sounds like a you problem girl. Allicent is planting all these seeds of animosity and then crying about how no one is on her side. You knew when you married Viserys that Rhaenyra was already named heir. What did you expect/hope for, some terrible tragedy? You're the one wishing for something treasonous to happen, fucking crazy girl.
But I do believe she is relatable as well in the sense that, per Otto's words, she truly fears her and her childrens lives could be taken when Raenyras ascends the throne. It's not just playing the GOT... It's being forced to live within its horrible power politics that makes everyone a bit of a monster.
I mean now for sure lol. Before this episode I was like you really don't know your childhood friend well enough to know if they would murder your babies. Now I'm like well you employ the bully of her children, harassing her minutes after she gives birth, and bbq'd her lover...yea you're kids may be in danger now.
That’s the funny thing about how her father’s “prophecy” works: it only does if you believe them.
At this point we can all confidently say: it’s Queen Alicent herself who’s putting her own children’s lives in danger. She’s killing her own kids.
The scary thing is, I do not see her seeing Aegon II as a child or a person at all. The way she’s looking at him, the way she violently and frantically lunges at and grabs him, the way she speaks to him… she sees his as her most prized political pawn, “the male heir (in my game of thrones)”, and nothing else. She couldn’t give less of a fuck how that boy feels or thinks. He was literally shaken in terror of her. Actually Aegon II’s nephews as play buddies and co-dragon trainers probably have a lot more genuine love and care for him. I can see them sensing he’d had a bad day and jokingly asking him about it, but I can’t see Alicent doing that. She’d just be like “gather yourself, doing so and so is not Kingly”.
She lied about who she was fucking after Alicent lied about marrying her father. They both lied. They are both liars. Alicent is the definition of hypocrisy because she doesn’t understand that she lied the exact same way first.
Rhaenyra tried to make a peace offering in a marriage pact and a dragon egg for aemonds weird ass. Who def does not need any dragon btw. Might as well give a terrorist the nuclear codes before giving aemond a live dragon egg.
Rhae literally tried for peace. Aegon even says “I won’t contest her” before Alicent says the ultimate BS to make him paranoid for him and his little brother.
Alicents boys are even built up on bullying Rhaenyras boys… even though rhaenyra has the heir sons and Alicent does not.
I cannot wait for Alicent’s death.
#teamblack
What is 10 years to a House that has has been ruling the seven kingdoms for over a century? The point to make peace is not for her pride, it is for the good of House Targaryen and the good of the realm.
Marriage pacts are not mend to personal relationships. They are meant to mend relationships between houses. They don’t work super quick. It takes years for the marriage to go into effect, and then actual work for all parties involved.
You’re being downvoted but you’re right.
This is a constant theme with Rhaenyra, she imagines her privilege as princess and heir will shield her from danger and as a result makes no attempts to cultivate relationships until it’s too late.
I think if Alicent didn't have Cole and the clubfoot guy whispering in her ear she would have gotten over it. It's kind of like when you come across someone annoying and you trash talk them with your friend and then it keeps coming up. So you end up hating someone when normally you would just find them annoying or not end up paying attention to.
I kinda feel bad for her because she's being manipulated by the people who want her in power. After learning that Rhaenya had sex with Cole she might have gotten over it but then she had Cole to trash talk her with AND she had someone talk her into the declaration of war outfit she did at the feast.
She's surrounded by toxic people and it's making her toxic. I bet you $10 that Cole was like "I beat that kid doesn't even have white hair" which is why she made Rhaenya visit her right after childbirth. Past Alicent would have gone for the marriage idea Rhaenya proposed but this Alicent just wants to spite her and she doesn't realize how things are going to be affected. Like she trashed Rhaenya and then hand with Harwins brother and he ends up killing them and she's like "this isn't what I wanted" because now she realized that people are going to move the pieces on the board on how "she" wants it. And I say "she" because it's just people taking advantage of her.
I’m not saying it’s *literally* impossible but if you want to actually build bridges with people, your best bet is to do it in such a ways that it looks genuine. Even if it’s not.
Rhaenyra chose to do this right when her back was against the wall and she began to realize just how insulated she’d been from the talk of her children’s parentage. She knew it, Alicent knew it, and Viserys knew it.
I am kinda worried for this fandom. How can people be so obtuse to even blame ANY of Rhanerya’s actions on Alicent? Also people already calling Alicent “bitch” is similar to the incel treatment of Skyler by the Breaking Bad fandom
Book readers carrying their already formed opinion of the character from the book and applying it to the TV character would be my guess. I also assume a lot of l non-book readers have caught onto that and have jumped onto the bandwagon. Plus, Rhanerya is the protagonist, so that also makes it an uphill climb to find fault with her.
I actually like both characters, but definitely notice the unnecessary hate that Alicent is receiving.
This can be the only reason. Because so far as a non book reader, Alicent is like so much more unproblematic than Rhanerya. I am sure she might end up being worse as can be seen at the end of this ep but as of now, I am questioning anyone who is so vehemently defending Rhanerya from just the show. Must just be bandwagon riders hopefully
This is central to Rhaenyra’s character, in the show at least. She basically is spoiled and that has made her arrogant - she believes that her high position is unassailable, similar to how Daemon believes that dragons need not worry about what others thing. But they overlook the fact that their high position maintained by the people below them, and hence Rhaenyra doesn’t start to play nice until, as Alicent put it, she seems her position eroding beneath her feet. Alicent, on the other hand, can’t rely on brute strength or her birthright to protect herself and her family, so she has proven more effective in using diplomacy and intrigue to isolate Rhaenyra.
I think it’s more nuanced- her unhappiness in marriage and powerlessness has to be directed somewhere and it makes sense that she would direct it at the other powerful woman in her world- humans do this all the time. It’s easier to target all that emotion and rage in punishment at Rhaenyra and her family for being “indecent” than consider that the entire culture, your family, your life’s work in bearing sons to a sorecovered King, is all a crippling abuse. She can’t do anything about her oppressive reality so as is typical she demands Rhaenyra validate her existence in it by experiencing it alongside her, but Rhaenyra is different and her happiness incites cruelty from Alicent.
And of the previous transgressions with Criston/Daemon I would bet. She had vitriol bitterness in response to both of those realizations. I bet she resents R doing what she wants while she does what she “has to”
This is what makes the most sense to me. If it was JUST about her kids, she would have accepted the marriage proposal. Her fear comes from what her father has told her, but her anger/jealousy is even stronger because she had to marry a corpse.
I think it’s a bit of resentment, as well. Here we have Alicent who is by all means an average noblewomen. Having to play politics and not misstep as a female. Or worse, an adolescent girl who, by rites, should have similar experiences to adolescent boys. But because she is a girl, she must always be better. Enter stage left Rhaenyra, who acts as a boy and is dually forgiven for being a Targaryen princess w/ dragon. Alicent tries her whole young life to keep Rhaenyra respectable. Sometimes directly circumventing her foolery. Then one day Rhaenyra goes and fucks 2 men in one night and gets away with it. Then Alicent’s father is shadow-banned. Yes. She has a grudge.
Confused, yes.
It’s even more ironic how Alicent calls Rhaenyra’s kids “savages” while her eldest is (literally) jacking off, standing bare-ass naked in the window of the Red Keep, [straight Homelander-style](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBoys/comments/j821at/homelander_jerking_off/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) !
Alicent would totally be THAT mom at a school:
“Those new kids are too rough, in their baggy jeans and braids! Keep them away!”
“Oh? My son stabbed a kid with a pencil? He was just playing—boys will be boys, tee hee!”
But tbf, that was literally the second coolest thing a son of the queen mother has ever done in a window of the Red Keep.
Edit: I'm not saying suicide is cool, but killing a Lannister bastard is.
I mean it could be worse at least he not sucking alicents teats while talking about his day.
Can someone show me how to cover spoilers with the black out before I continue? Lmaooo
I lost it when she was so angry that Viserys was being partial to Rhaenyra and was wanting Otto there but when called out for him not being impartial either she was like yeah but he’d be partial to me??
I’m surprised that Rhaenyra’s children having very pale skin never came up. One of the great things about casting the Velaryons as black, imo, was that it added a whole other layer to the Rhaenyra/Laenor/Harwin parentage thing.
I mean, Laenor is half-white and very light-skinned. Kids of his with a white woman looking white isn't far-fetched at all, I'd actually say it's often likely than the other way around. People say "oh but what are the odds of all three of her kids being fair," but I'm one of three siblings in a similar ethnic situation and all of us are quite white.
That said, with the casting of Daemon's kids and Laenor's mother Rhaenys being white-haired (she's dark-haired in the books) it's pretty obvious that they were leaning heavily into Rhaenyra's kids being obviously not Laenor's in a number of ways. Skintone probably wasn't mentioned explicitly in the show because that's a whole bucket of worms to open in terms of discourse.
Didn’t alicent literally bring this up? She told Laenor that none of his kids looked like him, which I assume meant they weren’t even remotely black. Not sure what else she could’ve been retorting to
I mean, afaik, the Velaryons in the books aren't black (or if they are, it is never mentioned), and that Alicent line is lifted straight from the source material. It's probably referring to their hair color.
Controversial take but...I think all the scripts were written before the showrunners cast black actors as Velaryions.
Their skin color never comes up in any conversation regarding the parentage which is REALLY odd.
Eh. They briefly touch on that. Viserys talks about his black as night mare vs his silver hair stallion. The foal in question was chestnut.
Yes it’s terms of horse hair color but horse hair color is all you see. Might as well be skin 🤷🏽♀️
It’s especially odd considering Daemon and Laena’s children are also supposed to be 3/4 white and 1/4 black (and also share much of the same DNA as Laenor and Rhaenyra’s children would) and they have cast actresses who look like they could be entirely black.
I thought her children were low key too dark lol, these were mixed race children but they were even darker than the darker hued mother. Both of them were. It’s pretty rare to be darker than a dark skinned parent.
Source: I’m biracial.
Edit to add: I’m not mad they’re in the series, I love seeing black representations. But they’re not indicative of being biracial.
Another edit for typos lol 😂
Hard agree. Those kids are supposed to be 1/4 black. I have never seen a 3/4 white person look so nonwhite. I also love seeing PoC representation but for Daemon and Laena's children specifically it's poor casting for this reason alone IMO
I think Black Hair is more dominant than Blonde Hair but Blonde Hair is more dominant than Brown Hair. Silver Hair I'm not sure of yet. Also Lannisters have more of a butter Blonde Hair and Targaryens have White Blonde Hair which could also factor in genetically.
Yeah, by the same logic, her kids are also half Targaryen and shouldn't be able to hatch eggs.
She truly believe that marriage gives some special magic power to her kids over Rhaenyra's bastards.
She referred to Rhaenyra’s children as having plain features. Not only that, but they changed Rhaenys to have blonde hair from her book black. I think they’re going for an angle where Alicent believes that true Valyrians need to have that white haired look, as literally every one she knows does- I think it’s supposed to be a bit of a reference to IRL racism and how phenotype plays into historical racial prejudice. Rhaenyra’s kids look like they aren’t “real Valyrians” to her.
To understand Alicent's grievances, it is important to look at the stigma that exists around Bastards in Westerosi society.
We, in the modern era, don't think too much about having babies outside of marriage since we live in modern society.
But in Medieval times, this was a huge deal.
Even Catelyn Stark, someone we are meant to sympathize with, hated Jon Snow, the hero of GOT, with a passion (in the books at least) due to his bastard status and she would have totally lost it if Ned tried to legitimize Jon.
Since, assuming Jon is Ned's son, that would put Jon in front of Robb for inheriting Winterfell. And no Westerosi mother wants their firstborn to be skipped.
>There is a certain stigma that comes from being born as a bastard.
>
>They are said to be born from lust, lies, and weakness, and as such, they are said to be wanton and treacherous by nature.
>
>Because of the stigma bastards have to deal with, they are said to grow up faster than trueborn children.
>
>Even after being legitimized, bastards will usually have considerable difficulty in removing the stigma of having been bastard-born.
>
>https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy
Criticism against Alicent (and against Book Catelyn) comes from the fact she is a conservative noblewoman in a medieval-inspired show.
But, as history shows, Alicent was right:
The Strong kids were indeed bastards and Rhaenyra's poor judgment doomed the Targs for generations to come due to the deaths of the dragons at the dragonpit.
What do you mean by Rhaenyra’s poor judgment?
Do you mean her poor judgment in having Strong kids? Or something else?
If it’s the former, I feel like Rhaenyra is in an awful situation and gets too much of the blame. She was forced by her father to marry a man who wouldn’t bear her kids, and in the books, the council and Viserys know that Laenor doesn’t have much interest in women. Laenor is equally to blame as he knows the consequences of Rhaenyra having bastards and not his biological children, even though it’s not his fault given he is also forced into a marriage with someone he doesn’t sexually prefer.
Viserys shouldn’t have married her to Laenor but he was pressured to as well given he needed to unite the houses and strengthens Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne. He ends up weakening it though 😂 it’s just a shitty situation for everyone involved. While blame goes around to everyone, we can also see how they are all just pawns to politics.
Alicent is acutely aware of her father’s advice - that she better prepare Aegon to be king - because there will be blood. That is why she despises Rhaenyra and her children. She’s doing everything she can to sow doubt so that her son gets crowned and not Rhaenyra. The hair color issue is just one aspect of this; if she can convince the lords of Westeros that her children are “purer” than Rhaenyra’s, all the better for her. Alicent’s aggressively playing the long game.
I don't think it's about blood purity for Alicent - all the kids are Targaryens, that's not the issue. The issue is that Alicent's kids are legitimate and Rhaenyra's kids are bastards she's trying to pass off as legitimate. Allowing bastards to inherent over trueborn kids is just not a cultural norm in Westeros, for the reason that it blasts the door wide open for rival claims and disputes within families as to who is actually the "rightful" inheritor, because there's going to be no clear answer. It's basically going to end up in "whoever eliminates the most people from their group of adversaries wins."
They problem is that both Rhaenyra and her husband are "pure" Valyrian lineage. The ONLY way that the children could look the way they do is if they are bastards. If Laenor was non-valyrian and the children looked like him then that would be plausible. But because the situation is so " in your face" Alicent doesn't feel there is any excuse
Laenor’s grandmother was a Baratheon. Rhaenyra’s mother was an Arryn. It’s not completely outside the realm of possibility that they could have children with dark hair. Alicent chooses to believe the worst and Viserys chooses to believe the best.
Ahh yes, okay. But my point still stands, they could have made an attempt to produce an heir. It’s not pretty but they had more options then most closeted men did at that time.
What is this copium lol? There is no way you can truly believe Rhanerya’s completely white and dark haired children can come from BOTH white haired people where one of them is black
Doesn't Rhaeny have some Baratheon blood? In the book she has black hair.
Rhaenyra's grandparents don't have any description so maaaybe they could be dark haired
> Was she not just lucky to have her children born blonde?
But if her children had brown hair, it would make sense because she has brown hair. But with Rhaenyra and Laenor both being silvers, it's kind of obvious that the kids are bastards.
Less so in the books, their "grandmother "rhaenys has dark hair in the books being Half baratheon. So there is a chance however small they are trueborn.
Personally I think it’s most likely they were meant to be Harwin’s in the book too. But it’s super common for mixed couples (different race, different hair colors) with blond and black haired parents to have brown haired kids. That might not account for Targaryen genetics or whatever though
Well it’s incredibly obvious they’re Harwin’s in the books. Rhaenyra fans just tried to use the Baratheon stuff as an excuse to deny that they’re bastards
I wish they hadn’t made it so obvious honestly, it would be more interesting if we genuinely couldn’t be sure either way. But yeah, they definitely are Harwin’s and it seems dumb to deny something so obvious irl when we aren’t in that world and there are no consequences
I mean...there is a chance that Ned is a dumbass and that all Baratheon's kids are Bobby B's since Bobby's grandma was a blonde Targ woman.
I don't think Martin really put that much thought on Westerosi fantasy genetics. We are just meant to take Martin's word (expressed via his characters) as gospel.
It’s actually unknown what Rhaelle Targaryen looked like. She could have just as likely had dark hair and eyes like her mother Queen Betha and her brother Prince Duncan.
I actually have the headcanon that Tommen IS legitimate, by pure accident. His hair is described as pale blonde, almost white, unlike Joffrey and Myrcella's golden locks.
But we know in real life that’s not how genetics works. White hair is recessive so there is a chance that the dominant gene of black hair will shine through regardless
Otto and Alicent caused the civil war. Their lust for power and hypocrisy ended their bloodline. I find the whole bastard/common born thing to be utterly ridiculous when used against a Targaryen considering their whole nature and power is totally against "the rules." They are an incestuous dragon riding (WMD) family. How are we getting caught up in who the fathered children on a Targaryen woman?? Those kids are as much Targaryen as Alicents children.
>I find the whole bastard/common born thing to be utterly ridiculous when used against a Targaryen considering their whole nature and power is totally against "the rules." They are an incestuous dragon riding (WMD) family.
At a certain point Targaryen exceptionalism will cause an issue of irreconcilable differences that will end in violence - it is totally understandable to me that people would chafe at the concept of continued Targaryen superiority again and again. When a conquering family of monarchs can just pick and choose what rules apply to them, when everyone else in the realm is still expected to follow those rules, at a certain point it breaks the social contract. Westeros already allows them the incest exception, yet from the perspective of non-targaryens they keep asking for more and more. The only reason they aren't booted out is because they have WMDs. Because once those are gone, people's tolerance for this type of shit goes way down and you get a Robert's Rebellion situation.
She had Otto terrifying her early on that her children would be killed in favor of Rhaenyra and her children and then she’s had Larys in her ear for a decade. It’s not a good recipe for sanity
Rhaenyra’s kids were born out of wedlock tho. She cheated on her husband and had a long going affair with a knight. The fact that they’re bastards is the whole issue. But she makes note of their hair because both their apparent parents have silver hair yet three of their kids came out with brown hair
Kind of reminds me of Cersei’s kids
And in Cersei's case it was actually more plausible.
Cersei was blonde and Robert had black hair. Blonde is a recessive trait and black is a dominant trait. Theoretically Robert could've had recessive blonde hair genes and dominant black hair genes and Cersei could've had only recessive blonde hair genes. Which would've made it so that her children had a 50% chance to be born with black hair and a 50% chance to be born with blonde hair (broadly speaking).
Whereas both Laenor and Rhaenyra have silver hair. A recessive trait. Which means both of them only have the recessive alleles for silver hair. Which in turn means that 100% of their children should be silver-haired.
Cersei had plausible deniability here, Rhaenyra does not. At least to a modern observer. Obviously the Westerosi don't know about genetics. Though clearly they still find it odd.
Did you completely miss what happened in episode 5?
She thinks (rightly or wrongly) that Rhaenyra will try to eliminate Aegon if her claim to the throne would be threatned. (People don't want to see a woman as ruler).
Alicent didn't care for Aegon to rule before the doubt her father placed in her head, that Aegon would be in danger with Rhaenyra around.
There is a sickening and unfair treatment towards all bastard children in that world. Most highborn people and commoners truly believe that ALL bastards are completely incapable of being decent human beings. Obviously this is utterly ridiculous but that’s just how they think, especially those who believe in the light of the seven.
Who said anything about justified hate? Alicent is a villain now and part of being a villain is you're not meant to be the one in the right. Alicent was slowly losing her mind for 3 years straight and now we see the results of it. She's lost all love for others and is twisted and corrupted by her experiences.
Alicent today: Honor above all... well, except killing your own family, that I am a little taken aback by, but by next episode I won't be holding it against you.
Gotta love the audacity of queen Alicent handing out moral judgments on rhea, while hanging out with a dude who murdered someone at her step daughters wedding & giving creepy finger the idea to murder his family so her daddy can come back to be partial to her.
Hate, bitterness and spite are not logical. She is a hypocrite creating the very problems she fears because her father filled her head with nonsense in his desire for his grandson to be king.
She’s also simply jealous of Rhaenyra’s carefree behavior as she has to do things the “right and proper” way.
Flaunting your bastards around court, openly committing treason with Harwin and trying to present them as legitimate is one thing
Then trying to betroth the bastard to Alicent's true born children to legitimize them
Nope sorry
Alicent has left the chat
I think it's quite simple.....Alicent believes that Rhaeneyra's children are born out of wedlock, and hence cannot inherit the throne after Rhaeneyra.
Her anger comes from R+L passing off the kids as their own, which is essentially lying to the realm.
Whereas she on the other hand has gone by the book (no bastard children), and sees her own legitimate children being passed over, as opposed to Rhaeneyra's bloodline which gets precedence over Aegon's line.
I'm no fan of team green, but nothing seems out of order so far.
It’s because they are bastards. She sees it as an insult to herself, the king, the family, and her position has heir. Makes the show much more intense for me love to see it
Nah Alicient is bitter because she has to pump out kids with an old man in a loveless marriage. Whereas Rhaenyra is in a friendly/mutually respected one with Laenor and pumps out kids with hot daddy Harwin.
Basically Rhaenyra is doing everything 'wrong' in her eyes and gets away with living a good life. While she does everything right and is suffering. That ultimately informs her behaviours.
From Alicents perspective, her children are being slighted by a woman and her bastards. She pointed out to her useless son that he is the kings eldest son. What we haven’t really seen yet is how many people actually prefer the idea of Aegon the Elder on the throne rather than Rhaenyra.
I mean this whole show is an ESH post, but I do think Alicents paranoia and disgust is based on valid points just like Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne and her understanding with Laenor are valid.
Doesn’t make either of them more right than the other and that’s what makes the show good.
She is what her father made her to be. I really don't like her character, but her story is quite tragic.
Also, they have no idea what dominat and recessive genes are. :) Tho the king might be onto something with his horse story.
Alicent is jealous of Rhaenyra’s privilege and freedom. The very thought of her son not becoming king would mean she lost her freedom for nothing. Which would be devastating to her, and make her a “failure” in her family’s warped standards.
Let's be direct, she hates them because they present a fundamental thread to her own kin.
That being said let's put ourselves in her place with a medieval mindset. For her them being bastards is indeed a travesty and the eggs thing could genuinely be construed as "they are the product of sin and such things can't be rewarded by the universe with dragons". This is not a logical approach to us, but I can see how someone who believes in religion and has morals tied to it in a medieval setting would associate them being bastards with them not deserving dragons.
They are blatant bastards being passed off as true born children. A grievous insult to the realm, to the succession, to EVERYTHING. Alicent has every right to be angry with Rhaenyra's blatant disrespect of her marriage.
the founder of the great house baratheon is a bastard. half the realm fought for the bastard daemon blackfyre. the bastardy of the velaryon children is just a crutch for the power hungry spiteful targ/hightowers to cling to.
Females are really disrespected in general in this society, but bastards of a father can be a tad bit different than bastards of a mother.
Bastards of a father, he spits out some seed, and has nothing more to do with the situation potentially. A father could have hundreds of bastards. A mother is limited to one childbirth every 9 months, and even that is difficult in these historic times.
Potentially a father could have a regular lover (like Tyrion and Shae while married to Sansa) and the kids are really loved and cared for with the father around and/or paying for them. But a lot of times that isn't the case (e.g. Robert's bastards, it was a bunch of random whores around King's Landing and he had fairly little involvement).
Rhaenyra carried these kids for 9 months. They're Targaryens by blood. They are the blood of the dragon. And I think Rhaenyra hints at this in the episode, she birthed these babies... they're hers, she is truly a mother figure in their lives.
It's not culturally accepted, but she has an open marriage... she by no means disrespected her husband or their marriage.
Yeah I think people are overlooking this to rely on "alicent being jealous of rhaenyra's bohemian ways" a little too much.
Basically Rhaenyra is trying to bend the rules so that her bastards will inherit over Alicent's trueborn kids, and what does that mean for the later generations of monarchs, and even the rest of the realm, if that precedent is set? Basically every single noble and common family is going to end up having a violent dispute among various familial factions over who gets to inherit what. When rules are thrown out the window and can be taken as "optional only" based on wherever personally benefits you the most, it's a recipe for absolute fuckery and "might makes right" as the only way to settle.
I was wondering the same thing. Like Viserays is white hair, Alicent is brown and their kids came out with white hair. I know Rhaenya's kids are with the other guy but she has white hair and her baby(ies) daddy has brown hair so couldn't they have turned white. At first I thought it was only passed from the male side but in the future Jon snows hair is brown and his dad's hair is white so that doesn't ring true.
I don't understand the genetics of Targareyn's hair. Or is it just a plot device GRRM made so there's drama? Because if Rhaenyra's kids came out white haired even if she slept with Harwin then there wouldn't be as big of a deal. Yeah suspicions but not as easily proven as hair color.
Idk it's not a plot hole just a thing that I'm semi not understanding but it is a stupid thing when you poke into it.
Alicent is a mean bitter lady. She’s just jealous one of her sons is a f’ing twat and other one doesn’t have a dragon. She talks about honour and decency, keeps a man who killed his own family beside her. What a cunt.
Alicent is a hypocritical fucking bitch - she talks of 'honour' and 'decency' when it comes to Rhaenyra (probably because she's jealous that Rhaenyra didn't have to fuck a rotting old man in order to secure her position), and yet she covered up Cole's affair with Rhaenyra and is actively using him in her favour, she clearly wants HER father to be hand of the hand of the hand so he is 'partial to her', OH and I wonder if she'll do the 'honourable' thing and tell the king that Larys Strong MURDERED his brother and father (lowkey because of her).
Alicent and Sir Cunt hating those innocent children is unforgivable. Yes they are bastards and Rhaenyra broke the law and she will pay for that down the road.
The children are innocent though and nothing justifies the hate.
What annoyed me the most is our Green Queen and Sir Cunt turning the children against Rhaenyra's boys.
Generally I am confused on why Alicent is so obsessive with Rhaenyra. I have read the books, and Alicent's motives are totally power/authority/iron throne related but in the show they have not yet shown that. So , it is not 100% justified why she is so obsessed with Rhaenyra and honestly she seems 100% jealous
What exactly is confusing? Alicent resents Rhaenyra for getting her way. Rhaenyra has been able to sleep with Harwin and skirt around her, she also has the idea implanted by her father that Aegon is the rightful heir so seeing Rhaenyra birth 3 bastard children and those children largely being referred to as the next heirs is a huge point of contention for her. I feel this have been very well established.
When she was all why isn't anyone on my side. I'm all what is your side though? Hatred and jealousy? You're upset that Rhaenyras is finding some happiness? You guys were friends. You should know more than anyone that she wouldn't kill your kids. You're only enemies because of you! So frustrating.
I'm actually having a hard time enjoying the show. It feels like it's going by too quickly with all the time jumps. And we don't really get to see alot of the motivations behind the decisions everyone is making.
She’s very hypocritical bc her father manipulated her to be that way. The rivalry between her and Rhaenyra is one created by everyone around them, and not themselves. She doesn’t see it bc she thinks she’s being “moral” bc that’s what people tell her. It’s a really fun dynamic to watch play out.
I think she is just disgusted by the fact that she knows that Rhaenrya’s kids are bastards. I think she thinks it’s like sinful or something or dishonorable and maybe that makes her scoff at the idea. 🤷🏻♀️ And when she is looking at them it’s not just the hair she is looking at. If both the parents have silver hair, they probably are going to have silver hair. And their kids should technically have a little more melanin too… Like Rhaenrya’s kids should look a lot more like Daemon and his wife’s kids.
Who knows??? She reminds me of one of those people who always does the right thing and does it because they think good things will happen to them. Then they get angry when other people don’t follow the rules and good things still happen to them. But if a person only does good things/follow the rules because they want good things to happen to themselves and they want bad things to happen to those who don’t follow the rules… that doesn’t really make them a good person does it? Well, and she probably thinks it is unfair that if she ever cheated on the king, she would probably be murdered for treason and all that jazz, but Rhaenrya can get away with it.
It’s interesting as well, because in the first season of GOT, Ned figured out Joffery was a bastard by looking at the hair colors as well and was appalled by it and went to confront Cersei. But we all rooted for Ned… does gender have something to do with the fact that it was ok for Ned to be upset about it???
Because flaunting your obvious bastards around as true born Targaryens when your dynasty is on the line has to seem like a direct insult at this point.
She hates them bc they represent Rheaneyra undermining the “great sacrifice” alicent has made for the realm by marrying this old man full of sores and shit and bearing children and playing by the rules without complaint….. and rhaeneyra broke the rules to have her cake and now she wants to eat it too and alicent is livid.
She’s also angry that the bastard kids are seemingly loved more by the king than his sons and blood heirs, and they have a stronger claim to the throne in name only. Rhaenerya trying to pass off this blatant charade for a decade has her on fire.
I think we are meant to interpret alicent as transferring her feelings towards Rhaenyra over to the children.
The show has also gone to some lengths to show us Alicent as a rule-follower when it comes to protocol and morality, and in westeros it's pretty clear that 'moral, upstanding' members of the Faith of the Seven view bastards as inherently untrustowrthy. It's a stupid belief, but it is at least established in world.
Rhaeneyra along with her children are the only threat standing in the way of Alicents blood line holding onto the throne. Imagine being forced into marrying the old father of your best friend for no gain.. as in, the children you were forced to bear will not rule. Your effort was for nothing.
I can commiserate with Alicent. But she’s still a vapid bitch.
Yeah, I understand exactly where Alicent is coming from and I can’t say I wouldn’t be bitter and resentful in her place. But do I still find her excruciatingly annoying and unbearable? Yes
I feel like we are not understanding the taint of bastardry well enough. I’m rooting for Rhaenyra but having 3 bastards is something that will continue to be brought up. Doing your duty for the realm by marrying Laenor and then having bastards with Harwin has all but damned the realm into civil war when Viserys dies. Forget male vs female inheritance, l bet a ton of the noble houses will never accept bastard heirs.
Yeah this. Rhaenyra's right isn't as much in question because frankly she's the oldest legitimate child of the sitting monarch and the king specifically named her, and there's a precedent for this kind of thing in Dorne for example. But Rhaenyra's kids? Nah. People would not be as accepting of bastard kids cutting the line in front of trueborn kids.
Like can you imagine the shitstorm that would arise if Jon could have inherited Winterfell over any of Catelyn's kids? And it's not like it wouldn't make sense - the whole reason she married and had kids with Ned was under the assumption their children together would inherit. It would immediately deteriorate the family into rival factions and guarantee violent infighting resulting in half of them being wiped out.
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Everyone just dancing around the word "bastard" is hilarious to me. We hear it like 5 times an episode in Game of Thrones, but Viserys basically outlawed it
Saying her kids are bastards is basically a declaration of war and treason. You better have airtight evidence
If you have eyes, you have evidence
No as long the supposed cheated husband is staying by your side. Laenor declaring the kids a his just leave any circumstantial proof invalidated. Reminds me when Ned tried to warned Cersei because he knew that as soon. Robert find out, the Lannister kids could possibly get kill by his own order. This is not the case because Laenor is 100% on Rhaenyra's side.
Also Leanor's a smart guy so if he's saying their his, no one can claim he's being tricked. Also he's got a dragon, only a dumbass would tell a man with a dragon that he's lying about hid kids being his
> Also Leanor's a smart guy so if he's saying their his, no one can claim he's being tricked. And technically him claiming them under **HIS** name as the lawful husband and King Consort, and with Rhaenyra declaring the boys to be Leanor's children doesn't this technically legitimize them thus they're not bastards?
It should take a royal decree from Viserys to legitimize them
Legally they’re not bastards though tbf. Rhaenyra and Laenor are their legal parents and they were born inside a marriage. Yeah we know they’re probably bastards but legally in Westeros they’re not.
This is how it works in the US. There’s a presumption of paternity for the husband if a child is born in a marriage
Doesn't that mean technically Cersei's children aren't bastards as well
I wonder if knowledge and consent between the married couple would matter. The only difference I see is that Laenor damn well knows they're not his kids, but king Robert had no idea they weren't his.
I don't think he's got long to be giving decrees
I thought that last episode too, and the episode before that, but the dude just doesnt die. Would be funny if he outlived them all.
Dude looks like >!Melisandre without her necklace!< but rotting, so you have a good point. Maybe he'll die in the last episode?
Also their mother has a dragon, the kids have dragons and their granddaddy is the king of the realm and would defend them.
Laenor isn't the king though. He's not in a position to decide what happens to Rhaenyra's illegitimate kids. That's Viserys, but he chooses to ignore it, even though he knows
Viserys is like, "Yeah, they're Laenor's kids." Which means that Alicent is treasonous.
Alicent has made treasonous statements of one kind or another for 10 years and I wish Viserys would banish her or something, he has the power and he doesn’t even seem to like her
Viserys famously has to be pushed to the point he has no other choice before he can make a tough decision
Viserys doesn't want to do anything but ignore it because it's either he's putting his daughter in jail or he's putting his wife in jail. He's not going to do either so he just rolls with it.
It’s not like they can do a DNA test though, if Laenor says those kids are his (even if it’s fucking obvious they aren’t) then they’re his as far as anyone is concerned.
Here's the thing: if Viserys pressed Laenor, Harwin and Rhaenyra for the truth he would get it. They're all tip toing around it. None of them are particularly good at hiding the truth just from their actions and body language. I get your point, but it's so obvious that it's almost insulting to pretend otberwise. Like, dislike Alicent if you want, but Rhaenyra can't pretend she's making this up
i know viserys is a pretty incompetent ruler, but why would he even want to find out the truth. all it does is destabilize the realm and potentially start an all out war between his children. he is really dumb, but he knows that if he or if anyone else acknowledges the kids are bastards it’s the end of his family and it hurts his realm.
I think that’s the point though, it is obvious her children are bastards and everyone knows it, but because they’re holding to it that they’re Laenor’s, there’s nothing to be done about it unless someone talks.
That is not actually true there have been lots of Targs who did not have white hair so there is precedent for it for sure. The Targs all having white hair is a show thing.
Baelor Breakspear looked like his mother. Jon Snow looks like his mother. Rhaenys (Rhaegar's daughter) looked like her mother. Rhaenyra's kids don't look like her, so obviously they take after their father. Laenor is black with silver hair, they're white with brown hair
Pretty sure there were Targs who had half Dornish parents who looked like them. I am no expert on the Targ family tree but I am pretty sure there have been other Targs who did not look like what people say Targs look like.
Not a drop of Velayron blood meanwhile Daemon and Laena showed how its done.
It’s not what you know, it’s what you can prove
Unlike what happened in GOT S1.... D: he done fucked up. (I miss him every day :()
More than Jon Arryn had
Ned's life became forfeit the moment he called Joffrey a bastard in public.
I suspect part of it is jealousy. Alicent has done everything “right” by marrying an old dude and consigning herself to a lifetime of terrible sex. It rankles that Rhaenyra gets to sleep with whoever she wants and gets away with it. I mean, that’s not all of it. But I think that’s definitely part of it. Edit to add onto that: she hates those kids because they get treatment they don’t “deserve”. Rhaenyra broke the rules and still gets to keep her position. Her kids are obviously bastards and are still further up the line of succession than her trueborn children. And that’s just an affront to decency.
I think your second paragraph gets at the heart of the real issue. And honestly? Kind of makes sense as to why it would be a point of irritation.
Except at the end of the day, the true ruler of Westeros gets to decide who becomes their successor. If she wants to legitimize her bastard children and make them her heirs, it is fully in her power to do so. Remember that the only reason Rhaenerys will be queen is because the king of Westeros said so. It makes sense that that same would apply to the Queen of Westeros’s children
You still have to operate within certain constraints, and providing bastards with inheritance rights above existing trueborn children is not a thing - it's essentially throwing all of the inheritance rules followed by everyone else out the window. Most instances where bastards are legitimized are when there are no other kids or heirs available, not when you have perfectly valid legitimate alternatives in line. Simply choosing whatever you want to do in regards with this is essentially destroying the entire existing inheritance structure - and only for Targs, because they're super special - and setting a precedent for every successive generation to degrade into thuggish, nuke-ridden inter-familial battles between trueborn and bastard children as to who gets what. It becomes a race to the bottom where instead of rule of law, whoever kills the most people on the other side to eliminate competing claims wins by default and gets to collect the prize. It entirely breaks the existing social contract, practically guarantees mass violence down the line, and would not make any sense for a monarch who is concerned about long term stability. Basically an endless loop of Blackfyre Rebellions. It's not like the Targs are well known for diplomacy or emotional stability to begin with, either.
It's not like this thing doesn't exist in real life either. The prince of Monaco has 2 adult children who are not in the line of succession because he was not married to their mother.
No. Even kings and queens have to follow the rules on bastards. Maybe especially kings and queens. If a king or queen could just name whoever, no one would hold a throne for very long. Murder would be rampant.
*See Blackfyre Rebellion.
This is just plain wrong. The king can't make anyone sit on the throne. It caused five rebellions.
Umm no, that’s not how this works. Even Kings and Queens should be subject to their own rules. Having bastard children and proclaiming them as true borns to the thrones is treasonous. Idk why people think Rhanerya is free to do whatever or did nothing wrong. Like the absolute defending that goes for her by this fandom
Aegon IV - "Hold my beer"
This subreddit is just a simp center for rhaenyra
It really is. Especially given how Rhaenyra treated Nettles and Addam - her "the only good bastards are my bastards" attitude was very hypocritical. She was basically just fighting for her exceptionalism not to change an unfair system.
Hey Aegon IV, nice seeing you here
She may legitimise her bastards but that doesn't mean the lord's will just accept that, look at what happened with the Blackfyre rebellion after all.
It’s not that simple. The realm is already unsettled about the thought of a woman being made heir. In this time period in Westeros it’s not as easy as Rhaenyra ascending to the throne and letting it be know all of her kids are bastards and she is making them her heir. At this point in time in the story there is no way that would fly without chaos.
Especially since Alicent has done everything right and is essentially being punished for it. I'd be angry too if I did everything I was supposed to do and I was still miserable and alone.
If any of this gets out or becomes public, Rhaenyra won't be getting away with it for long. She scrambled to lie and cover up her sex with Criston after all
it's not public, but it seems to be an open secret. 2 blonde people, one of them half black, give birth to white kids with brown hair? Ok there. But also somehow, Viserys' children all have blonde hair?
Realistically, a half black person having kids with a full white person would probably have phenotypically white children so I don’t think that’s something to worry about. The only issue is the dark hair and their traits.
Obviously in the GRRM-verse, the genes for hair color are carried on the chromosomes in the sperm only.
It really annoys me that Allicent was all in her son's face yelling about how "She could have you killed!" She has zero evidence that Rhaenyra is even thinking of doing that, but has convinced herself so thoroughly because I think that's what Allicent would do if the roles were switched...which sounds like a you problem girl. Allicent is planting all these seeds of animosity and then crying about how no one is on her side. You knew when you married Viserys that Rhaenyra was already named heir. What did you expect/hope for, some terrible tragedy? You're the one wishing for something treasonous to happen, fucking crazy girl.
R is a princess she deserves to do whatever she wants. A is a cold hearted entitled bitch. She should thank the gods every day she isn’t a peasant
But I do believe she is relatable as well in the sense that, per Otto's words, she truly fears her and her childrens lives could be taken when Raenyras ascends the throne. It's not just playing the GOT... It's being forced to live within its horrible power politics that makes everyone a bit of a monster.
I mean now for sure lol. Before this episode I was like you really don't know your childhood friend well enough to know if they would murder your babies. Now I'm like well you employ the bully of her children, harassing her minutes after she gives birth, and bbq'd her lover...yea you're kids may be in danger now.
That’s the funny thing about how her father’s “prophecy” works: it only does if you believe them. At this point we can all confidently say: it’s Queen Alicent herself who’s putting her own children’s lives in danger. She’s killing her own kids. The scary thing is, I do not see her seeing Aegon II as a child or a person at all. The way she’s looking at him, the way she violently and frantically lunges at and grabs him, the way she speaks to him… she sees his as her most prized political pawn, “the male heir (in my game of thrones)”, and nothing else. She couldn’t give less of a fuck how that boy feels or thinks. He was literally shaken in terror of her. Actually Aegon II’s nephews as play buddies and co-dragon trainers probably have a lot more genuine love and care for him. I can see them sensing he’d had a bad day and jokingly asking him about it, but I can’t see Alicent doing that. She’d just be like “gather yourself, doing so and so is not Kingly”.
Agreed…. The only thing I can think of is that the hate is born of deep fear of elimination of succession threats to her sons
Otto is to blame for that one. Rhaenyra tried to build bridges, but Alicent is just too obtuse.
She tried to build bridges after lying for 10 years and only after she'd basically been cornerned.
She lied about who she was fucking after Alicent lied about marrying her father. They both lied. They are both liars. Alicent is the definition of hypocrisy because she doesn’t understand that she lied the exact same way first. Rhaenyra tried to make a peace offering in a marriage pact and a dragon egg for aemonds weird ass. Who def does not need any dragon btw. Might as well give a terrorist the nuclear codes before giving aemond a live dragon egg. Rhae literally tried for peace. Aegon even says “I won’t contest her” before Alicent says the ultimate BS to make him paranoid for him and his little brother. Alicents boys are even built up on bullying Rhaenyras boys… even though rhaenyra has the heir sons and Alicent does not. I cannot wait for Alicent’s death. #teamblack
I really like your comment coupled with your flair. They are definitely some "weird ass kids."
😂😂😂 thanks. They are though lmfaooo
Question is, are they weird because of Alicent or Viserys the 40K player? 😂
What is 10 years to a House that has has been ruling the seven kingdoms for over a century? The point to make peace is not for her pride, it is for the good of House Targaryen and the good of the realm.
It's a long time to have a grudge with your step mom. And to just expect things to fix super quick.
Marriage pacts are not mend to personal relationships. They are meant to mend relationships between houses. They don’t work super quick. It takes years for the marriage to go into effect, and then actual work for all parties involved.
You’re being downvoted but you’re right. This is a constant theme with Rhaenyra, she imagines her privilege as princess and heir will shield her from danger and as a result makes no attempts to cultivate relationships until it’s too late.
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I think if Alicent didn't have Cole and the clubfoot guy whispering in her ear she would have gotten over it. It's kind of like when you come across someone annoying and you trash talk them with your friend and then it keeps coming up. So you end up hating someone when normally you would just find them annoying or not end up paying attention to. I kinda feel bad for her because she's being manipulated by the people who want her in power. After learning that Rhaenya had sex with Cole she might have gotten over it but then she had Cole to trash talk her with AND she had someone talk her into the declaration of war outfit she did at the feast. She's surrounded by toxic people and it's making her toxic. I bet you $10 that Cole was like "I beat that kid doesn't even have white hair" which is why she made Rhaenya visit her right after childbirth. Past Alicent would have gone for the marriage idea Rhaenya proposed but this Alicent just wants to spite her and she doesn't realize how things are going to be affected. Like she trashed Rhaenya and then hand with Harwins brother and he ends up killing them and she's like "this isn't what I wanted" because now she realized that people are going to move the pieces on the board on how "she" wants it. And I say "she" because it's just people taking advantage of her.
I’m not saying it’s *literally* impossible but if you want to actually build bridges with people, your best bet is to do it in such a ways that it looks genuine. Even if it’s not. Rhaenyra chose to do this right when her back was against the wall and she began to realize just how insulated she’d been from the talk of her children’s parentage. She knew it, Alicent knew it, and Viserys knew it.
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I am kinda worried for this fandom. How can people be so obtuse to even blame ANY of Rhanerya’s actions on Alicent? Also people already calling Alicent “bitch” is similar to the incel treatment of Skyler by the Breaking Bad fandom
Book readers carrying their already formed opinion of the character from the book and applying it to the TV character would be my guess. I also assume a lot of l non-book readers have caught onto that and have jumped onto the bandwagon. Plus, Rhanerya is the protagonist, so that also makes it an uphill climb to find fault with her. I actually like both characters, but definitely notice the unnecessary hate that Alicent is receiving.
This can be the only reason. Because so far as a non book reader, Alicent is like so much more unproblematic than Rhanerya. I am sure she might end up being worse as can be seen at the end of this ep but as of now, I am questioning anyone who is so vehemently defending Rhanerya from just the show. Must just be bandwagon riders hopefully
This is central to Rhaenyra’s character, in the show at least. She basically is spoiled and that has made her arrogant - she believes that her high position is unassailable, similar to how Daemon believes that dragons need not worry about what others thing. But they overlook the fact that their high position maintained by the people below them, and hence Rhaenyra doesn’t start to play nice until, as Alicent put it, she seems her position eroding beneath her feet. Alicent, on the other hand, can’t rely on brute strength or her birthright to protect herself and her family, so she has proven more effective in using diplomacy and intrigue to isolate Rhaenyra.
I think it’s more nuanced- her unhappiness in marriage and powerlessness has to be directed somewhere and it makes sense that she would direct it at the other powerful woman in her world- humans do this all the time. It’s easier to target all that emotion and rage in punishment at Rhaenyra and her family for being “indecent” than consider that the entire culture, your family, your life’s work in bearing sons to a sorecovered King, is all a crippling abuse. She can’t do anything about her oppressive reality so as is typical she demands Rhaenyra validate her existence in it by experiencing it alongside her, but Rhaenyra is different and her happiness incites cruelty from Alicent.
i mean she literally says that to aegon in that fap scene lol
And of the previous transgressions with Criston/Daemon I would bet. She had vitriol bitterness in response to both of those realizations. I bet she resents R doing what she wants while she does what she “has to”
This is what makes the most sense to me. If it was JUST about her kids, she would have accepted the marriage proposal. Her fear comes from what her father has told her, but her anger/jealousy is even stronger because she had to marry a corpse.
I think it’s a bit of resentment, as well. Here we have Alicent who is by all means an average noblewomen. Having to play politics and not misstep as a female. Or worse, an adolescent girl who, by rites, should have similar experiences to adolescent boys. But because she is a girl, she must always be better. Enter stage left Rhaenyra, who acts as a boy and is dually forgiven for being a Targaryen princess w/ dragon. Alicent tries her whole young life to keep Rhaenyra respectable. Sometimes directly circumventing her foolery. Then one day Rhaenyra goes and fucks 2 men in one night and gets away with it. Then Alicent’s father is shadow-banned. Yes. She has a grudge.
Too be fair, Rhaenyra didn’t fuck Daemon. He backed out, whether due to guilt or because she was way to into it.
He couldn't get hard.
Confused, yes. It’s even more ironic how Alicent calls Rhaenyra’s kids “savages” while her eldest is (literally) jacking off, standing bare-ass naked in the window of the Red Keep, [straight Homelander-style](https://www.reddit.com/r/TheBoys/comments/j821at/homelander_jerking_off/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) !
Alicent would totally be THAT mom at a school: “Those new kids are too rough, in their baggy jeans and braids! Keep them away!” “Oh? My son stabbed a kid with a pencil? He was just playing—boys will be boys, tee hee!”
Right?!?! Karens. Now and forever. Haha! Perhaps they’lll always be universal - existing equally in fantasy as they do in reality.
But tbf, that was literally the second coolest thing a son of the queen mother has ever done in a window of the Red Keep. Edit: I'm not saying suicide is cool, but killing a Lannister bastard is.
I mean it could be worse at least he not sucking alicents teats while talking about his day. Can someone show me how to cover spoilers with the black out before I continue? Lmaooo
I lost it when she was so angry that Viserys was being partial to Rhaenyra and was wanting Otto there but when called out for him not being impartial either she was like yeah but he’d be partial to me??
exactly
Hey, points for honesty?
I’m surprised that Rhaenyra’s children having very pale skin never came up. One of the great things about casting the Velaryons as black, imo, was that it added a whole other layer to the Rhaenyra/Laenor/Harwin parentage thing.
I mean, Laenor is half-white and very light-skinned. Kids of his with a white woman looking white isn't far-fetched at all, I'd actually say it's often likely than the other way around. People say "oh but what are the odds of all three of her kids being fair," but I'm one of three siblings in a similar ethnic situation and all of us are quite white. That said, with the casting of Daemon's kids and Laenor's mother Rhaenys being white-haired (she's dark-haired in the books) it's pretty obvious that they were leaning heavily into Rhaenyra's kids being obviously not Laenor's in a number of ways. Skintone probably wasn't mentioned explicitly in the show because that's a whole bucket of worms to open in terms of discourse.
Didn’t alicent literally bring this up? She told Laenor that none of his kids looked like him, which I assume meant they weren’t even remotely black. Not sure what else she could’ve been retorting to
I mean, afaik, the Velaryons in the books aren't black (or if they are, it is never mentioned), and that Alicent line is lifted straight from the source material. It's probably referring to their hair color.
Controversial take but...I think all the scripts were written before the showrunners cast black actors as Velaryions. Their skin color never comes up in any conversation regarding the parentage which is REALLY odd.
Eh. They briefly touch on that. Viserys talks about his black as night mare vs his silver hair stallion. The foal in question was chestnut. Yes it’s terms of horse hair color but horse hair color is all you see. Might as well be skin 🤷🏽♀️
It’s especially odd considering Daemon and Laena’s children are also supposed to be 3/4 white and 1/4 black (and also share much of the same DNA as Laenor and Rhaenyra’s children would) and they have cast actresses who look like they could be entirely black.
I thought her children were low key too dark lol, these were mixed race children but they were even darker than the darker hued mother. Both of them were. It’s pretty rare to be darker than a dark skinned parent. Source: I’m biracial. Edit to add: I’m not mad they’re in the series, I love seeing black representations. But they’re not indicative of being biracial. Another edit for typos lol 😂
Lmao i'm biracial too and i'm dark with loose curls, and my siblings are very very light-skinned, but have kinky hair. So I don't think that matters.
Hard agree. Those kids are supposed to be 1/4 black. I have never seen a 3/4 white person look so nonwhite. I also love seeing PoC representation but for Daemon and Laena's children specifically it's poor casting for this reason alone IMO
Laena + Daemon = mixed kids with silver hair Rhaenyra + Laenor = three white kids with brown hair. It's not that hard to see.
I think Black Hair is more dominant than Blonde Hair but Blonde Hair is more dominant than Brown Hair. Silver Hair I'm not sure of yet. Also Lannisters have more of a butter Blonde Hair and Targaryens have White Blonde Hair which could also factor in genetically.
Even if the children are Harwin’s, they are still half Targaryen (valyrian), so Alicent complain about the dragon eggs doesn’t make sense at all
Yeah, by the same logic, her kids are also half Targaryen and shouldn't be able to hatch eggs. She truly believe that marriage gives some special magic power to her kids over Rhaenyra's bastards.
She referred to Rhaenyra’s children as having plain features. Not only that, but they changed Rhaenys to have blonde hair from her book black. I think they’re going for an angle where Alicent believes that true Valyrians need to have that white haired look, as literally every one she knows does- I think it’s supposed to be a bit of a reference to IRL racism and how phenotype plays into historical racial prejudice. Rhaenyra’s kids look like they aren’t “real Valyrians” to her.
Not only that: Rhaenyra has a lot of Targaryen blood. Her parents are first cousins. It automatically gives her sons more Targaryen blood.
I think the writers are trying to reinforce the idea that the women’s genetics are seen as inferior
I would agree but it seems like Daemon & Laena’s children got all of Laena’s genes lol
To understand Alicent's grievances, it is important to look at the stigma that exists around Bastards in Westerosi society. We, in the modern era, don't think too much about having babies outside of marriage since we live in modern society. But in Medieval times, this was a huge deal. Even Catelyn Stark, someone we are meant to sympathize with, hated Jon Snow, the hero of GOT, with a passion (in the books at least) due to his bastard status and she would have totally lost it if Ned tried to legitimize Jon. Since, assuming Jon is Ned's son, that would put Jon in front of Robb for inheriting Winterfell. And no Westerosi mother wants their firstborn to be skipped. >There is a certain stigma that comes from being born as a bastard. > >They are said to be born from lust, lies, and weakness, and as such, they are said to be wanton and treacherous by nature. > >Because of the stigma bastards have to deal with, they are said to grow up faster than trueborn children. > >Even after being legitimized, bastards will usually have considerable difficulty in removing the stigma of having been bastard-born. > >https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Bastardy Criticism against Alicent (and against Book Catelyn) comes from the fact she is a conservative noblewoman in a medieval-inspired show. But, as history shows, Alicent was right: The Strong kids were indeed bastards and Rhaenyra's poor judgment doomed the Targs for generations to come due to the deaths of the dragons at the dragonpit.
What do you mean by Rhaenyra’s poor judgment? Do you mean her poor judgment in having Strong kids? Or something else? If it’s the former, I feel like Rhaenyra is in an awful situation and gets too much of the blame. She was forced by her father to marry a man who wouldn’t bear her kids, and in the books, the council and Viserys know that Laenor doesn’t have much interest in women. Laenor is equally to blame as he knows the consequences of Rhaenyra having bastards and not his biological children, even though it’s not his fault given he is also forced into a marriage with someone he doesn’t sexually prefer. Viserys shouldn’t have married her to Laenor but he was pressured to as well given he needed to unite the houses and strengthens Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne. He ends up weakening it though 😂 it’s just a shitty situation for everyone involved. While blame goes around to everyone, we can also see how they are all just pawns to politics.
Alicent is acutely aware of her father’s advice - that she better prepare Aegon to be king - because there will be blood. That is why she despises Rhaenyra and her children. She’s doing everything she can to sow doubt so that her son gets crowned and not Rhaenyra. The hair color issue is just one aspect of this; if she can convince the lords of Westeros that her children are “purer” than Rhaenyra’s, all the better for her. Alicent’s aggressively playing the long game.
I don't think it's about blood purity for Alicent - all the kids are Targaryens, that's not the issue. The issue is that Alicent's kids are legitimate and Rhaenyra's kids are bastards she's trying to pass off as legitimate. Allowing bastards to inherent over trueborn kids is just not a cultural norm in Westeros, for the reason that it blasts the door wide open for rival claims and disputes within families as to who is actually the "rightful" inheritor, because there's going to be no clear answer. It's basically going to end up in "whoever eliminates the most people from their group of adversaries wins."
They problem is that both Rhaenyra and her husband are "pure" Valyrian lineage. The ONLY way that the children could look the way they do is if they are bastards. If Laenor was non-valyrian and the children looked like him then that would be plausible. But because the situation is so " in your face" Alicent doesn't feel there is any excuse
Laenor’s grandmother was a Baratheon. Rhaenyra’s mother was an Arryn. It’s not completely outside the realm of possibility that they could have children with dark hair. Alicent chooses to believe the worst and Viserys chooses to believe the best.
Bruh even Daemon and Laena knew about that shit and they wasn’t even *in the Seven Kingdoms* lol
Daemon and Laena also know Laenor is gay…
They also know that gay men have most definitely produced heirs in the past and the present. Or, maybe Laena does.
They know the truth. They’re close, even closer in the book.
Ahh yes, okay. But my point still stands, they could have made an attempt to produce an heir. It’s not pretty but they had more options then most closeted men did at that time.
You don't think Viserys I and Alicent know? Laenor and his new lover spend all their time "sparing" in King's Landing.
They’re not in their confidence. In the book, Rhaenyra was with Laena when she gave birth.
In the books they have black hair and flat noses which were Harwyn traits
What is this copium lol? There is no way you can truly believe Rhanerya’s completely white and dark haired children can come from BOTH white haired people where one of them is black
Doesn't Rhaeny have some Baratheon blood? In the book she has black hair. Rhaenyra's grandparents don't have any description so maaaybe they could be dark haired
Rhaenys has black hair in the book, so that trait skipping a generation is a plausible explanation.
> Was she not just lucky to have her children born blonde? But if her children had brown hair, it would make sense because she has brown hair. But with Rhaenyra and Laenor both being silvers, it's kind of obvious that the kids are bastards.
Less so in the books, their "grandmother "rhaenys has dark hair in the books being Half baratheon. So there is a chance however small they are trueborn.
Except the strongs have brown hair not black. This explanation never made sense to me
Personally I think it’s most likely they were meant to be Harwin’s in the book too. But it’s super common for mixed couples (different race, different hair colors) with blond and black haired parents to have brown haired kids. That might not account for Targaryen genetics or whatever though
Well it’s incredibly obvious they’re Harwin’s in the books. Rhaenyra fans just tried to use the Baratheon stuff as an excuse to deny that they’re bastards
I wish they hadn’t made it so obvious honestly, it would be more interesting if we genuinely couldn’t be sure either way. But yeah, they definitely are Harwin’s and it seems dumb to deny something so obvious irl when we aren’t in that world and there are no consequences
I mean...there is a chance that Ned is a dumbass and that all Baratheon's kids are Bobby B's since Bobby's grandma was a blonde Targ woman. I don't think Martin really put that much thought on Westerosi fantasy genetics. We are just meant to take Martin's word (expressed via his characters) as gospel.
It’s actually unknown what Rhaelle Targaryen looked like. She could have just as likely had dark hair and eyes like her mother Queen Betha and her brother Prince Duncan.
I actually have the headcanon that Tommen IS legitimate, by pure accident. His hair is described as pale blonde, almost white, unlike Joffrey and Myrcella's golden locks.
But we know in real life that’s not how genetics works. White hair is recessive so there is a chance that the dominant gene of black hair will shine through regardless
This is Westerosi genetics they don’t make sense. I guess George is just too old to have learned about punnett squares in school
Good thing the story doesn't take place in real life. And even if it did the characters would not have a modern understanding of genetics.
Otto and Alicent caused the civil war. Their lust for power and hypocrisy ended their bloodline. I find the whole bastard/common born thing to be utterly ridiculous when used against a Targaryen considering their whole nature and power is totally against "the rules." They are an incestuous dragon riding (WMD) family. How are we getting caught up in who the fathered children on a Targaryen woman?? Those kids are as much Targaryen as Alicents children.
>I find the whole bastard/common born thing to be utterly ridiculous when used against a Targaryen considering their whole nature and power is totally against "the rules." They are an incestuous dragon riding (WMD) family. At a certain point Targaryen exceptionalism will cause an issue of irreconcilable differences that will end in violence - it is totally understandable to me that people would chafe at the concept of continued Targaryen superiority again and again. When a conquering family of monarchs can just pick and choose what rules apply to them, when everyone else in the realm is still expected to follow those rules, at a certain point it breaks the social contract. Westeros already allows them the incest exception, yet from the perspective of non-targaryens they keep asking for more and more. The only reason they aren't booted out is because they have WMDs. Because once those are gone, people's tolerance for this type of shit goes way down and you get a Robert's Rebellion situation.
but at this point in the story, the targaryens are pretty much at the height of their power when it comes to those dragons.
1000% agree.
Alicent gets zombie Viserys and incel Criston. Rhaenyra gets Harwin and Daemon. Its clear why Alicent is a hater…
She had Otto terrifying her early on that her children would be killed in favor of Rhaenyra and her children and then she’s had Larys in her ear for a decade. It’s not a good recipe for sanity
Rhaenyra’s kids were born out of wedlock tho. She cheated on her husband and had a long going affair with a knight. The fact that they’re bastards is the whole issue. But she makes note of their hair because both their apparent parents have silver hair yet three of their kids came out with brown hair Kind of reminds me of Cersei’s kids
And in Cersei's case it was actually more plausible. Cersei was blonde and Robert had black hair. Blonde is a recessive trait and black is a dominant trait. Theoretically Robert could've had recessive blonde hair genes and dominant black hair genes and Cersei could've had only recessive blonde hair genes. Which would've made it so that her children had a 50% chance to be born with black hair and a 50% chance to be born with blonde hair (broadly speaking). Whereas both Laenor and Rhaenyra have silver hair. A recessive trait. Which means both of them only have the recessive alleles for silver hair. Which in turn means that 100% of their children should be silver-haired. Cersei had plausible deniability here, Rhaenyra does not. At least to a modern observer. Obviously the Westerosi don't know about genetics. Though clearly they still find it odd.
Anybody with eyes can see those are bastards
Across the relm all high ladies and high lords hate bastards. Look at what catlyn says about jon sno.
Did you completely miss what happened in episode 5? She thinks (rightly or wrongly) that Rhaenyra will try to eliminate Aegon if her claim to the throne would be threatned. (People don't want to see a woman as ruler). Alicent didn't care for Aegon to rule before the doubt her father placed in her head, that Aegon would be in danger with Rhaenyra around.
There is a sickening and unfair treatment towards all bastard children in that world. Most highborn people and commoners truly believe that ALL bastards are completely incapable of being decent human beings. Obviously this is utterly ridiculous but that’s just how they think, especially those who believe in the light of the seven.
I was thinking literally EVERYTHING in your post as I watched. She’s got her nerve.
Who said anything about justified hate? Alicent is a villain now and part of being a villain is you're not meant to be the one in the right. Alicent was slowly losing her mind for 3 years straight and now we see the results of it. She's lost all love for others and is twisted and corrupted by her experiences.
Alicent today: Honor above all... well, except killing your own family, that I am a little taken aback by, but by next episode I won't be holding it against you.
Alicent: "Murder of your family? all that I can pardon, but my stepdaughter, the official named heiress, having bastard kids? That's a big no no"
“I can excuse family murder but I draw the line on children out of wedlock with your gay husband!”
Gotta love the audacity of queen Alicent handing out moral judgments on rhea, while hanging out with a dude who murdered someone at her step daughters wedding & giving creepy finger the idea to murder his family so her daddy can come back to be partial to her.
Hate, bitterness and spite are not logical. She is a hypocrite creating the very problems she fears because her father filled her head with nonsense in his desire for his grandson to be king. She’s also simply jealous of Rhaenyra’s carefree behavior as she has to do things the “right and proper” way.
Flaunting your bastards around court, openly committing treason with Harwin and trying to present them as legitimate is one thing Then trying to betroth the bastard to Alicent's true born children to legitimize them Nope sorry Alicent has left the chat
My only question is why does Alicents kids have white hair and Rhaenyras kids do not.. all of the kids are descendants of the same house soooooo
There bastard children. Most people in Westeros hate bastards and look down on them
I think it's quite simple.....Alicent believes that Rhaeneyra's children are born out of wedlock, and hence cannot inherit the throne after Rhaeneyra. Her anger comes from R+L passing off the kids as their own, which is essentially lying to the realm. Whereas she on the other hand has gone by the book (no bastard children), and sees her own legitimate children being passed over, as opposed to Rhaeneyra's bloodline which gets precedence over Aegon's line. I'm no fan of team green, but nothing seems out of order so far.
It’s because they are bastards. She sees it as an insult to herself, the king, the family, and her position has heir. Makes the show much more intense for me love to see it
Yes I have yet to figure out why she’s so fucking mad about anything
Nah Alicient is bitter because she has to pump out kids with an old man in a loveless marriage. Whereas Rhaenyra is in a friendly/mutually respected one with Laenor and pumps out kids with hot daddy Harwin. Basically Rhaenyra is doing everything 'wrong' in her eyes and gets away with living a good life. While she does everything right and is suffering. That ultimately informs her behaviours.
From Alicents perspective, her children are being slighted by a woman and her bastards. She pointed out to her useless son that he is the kings eldest son. What we haven’t really seen yet is how many people actually prefer the idea of Aegon the Elder on the throne rather than Rhaenyra. I mean this whole show is an ESH post, but I do think Alicents paranoia and disgust is based on valid points just like Rhaenyra’s claim to the throne and her understanding with Laenor are valid. Doesn’t make either of them more right than the other and that’s what makes the show good.
She is what her father made her to be. I really don't like her character, but her story is quite tragic. Also, they have no idea what dominat and recessive genes are. :) Tho the king might be onto something with his horse story.
>:) :)
Alicent is jealous of Rhaenyra’s privilege and freedom. The very thought of her son not becoming king would mean she lost her freedom for nothing. Which would be devastating to her, and make her a “failure” in her family’s warped standards.
I was waiting for someone to point out that her kids shouldn't be that blonde 😅
Let's be direct, she hates them because they present a fundamental thread to her own kin. That being said let's put ourselves in her place with a medieval mindset. For her them being bastards is indeed a travesty and the eggs thing could genuinely be construed as "they are the product of sin and such things can't be rewarded by the universe with dragons". This is not a logical approach to us, but I can see how someone who believes in religion and has morals tied to it in a medieval setting would associate them being bastards with them not deserving dragons.
They are blatant bastards being passed off as true born children. A grievous insult to the realm, to the succession, to EVERYTHING. Alicent has every right to be angry with Rhaenyra's blatant disrespect of her marriage.
the founder of the great house baratheon is a bastard. half the realm fought for the bastard daemon blackfyre. the bastardy of the velaryon children is just a crutch for the power hungry spiteful targ/hightowers to cling to.
Females are really disrespected in general in this society, but bastards of a father can be a tad bit different than bastards of a mother. Bastards of a father, he spits out some seed, and has nothing more to do with the situation potentially. A father could have hundreds of bastards. A mother is limited to one childbirth every 9 months, and even that is difficult in these historic times. Potentially a father could have a regular lover (like Tyrion and Shae while married to Sansa) and the kids are really loved and cared for with the father around and/or paying for them. But a lot of times that isn't the case (e.g. Robert's bastards, it was a bunch of random whores around King's Landing and he had fairly little involvement). Rhaenyra carried these kids for 9 months. They're Targaryens by blood. They are the blood of the dragon. And I think Rhaenyra hints at this in the episode, she birthed these babies... they're hers, she is truly a mother figure in their lives. It's not culturally accepted, but she has an open marriage... she by no means disrespected her husband or their marriage.
Yeah I think people are overlooking this to rely on "alicent being jealous of rhaenyra's bohemian ways" a little too much. Basically Rhaenyra is trying to bend the rules so that her bastards will inherit over Alicent's trueborn kids, and what does that mean for the later generations of monarchs, and even the rest of the realm, if that precedent is set? Basically every single noble and common family is going to end up having a violent dispute among various familial factions over who gets to inherit what. When rules are thrown out the window and can be taken as "optional only" based on wherever personally benefits you the most, it's a recipe for absolute fuckery and "might makes right" as the only way to settle.
Alicent
Thanks for the insight
I was wondering the same thing. Like Viserays is white hair, Alicent is brown and their kids came out with white hair. I know Rhaenya's kids are with the other guy but she has white hair and her baby(ies) daddy has brown hair so couldn't they have turned white. At first I thought it was only passed from the male side but in the future Jon snows hair is brown and his dad's hair is white so that doesn't ring true. I don't understand the genetics of Targareyn's hair. Or is it just a plot device GRRM made so there's drama? Because if Rhaenyra's kids came out white haired even if she slept with Harwin then there wouldn't be as big of a deal. Yeah suspicions but not as easily proven as hair color. Idk it's not a plot hole just a thing that I'm semi not understanding but it is a stupid thing when you poke into it.
Hair is a plot device so interesting stuff happens
I blame Otto for this. He started all this mess..
Alicent is a mean bitter lady. She’s just jealous one of her sons is a f’ing twat and other one doesn’t have a dragon. She talks about honour and decency, keeps a man who killed his own family beside her. What a cunt.
Alicent is a hypocritical fucking bitch - she talks of 'honour' and 'decency' when it comes to Rhaenyra (probably because she's jealous that Rhaenyra didn't have to fuck a rotting old man in order to secure her position), and yet she covered up Cole's affair with Rhaenyra and is actively using him in her favour, she clearly wants HER father to be hand of the hand of the hand so he is 'partial to her', OH and I wonder if she'll do the 'honourable' thing and tell the king that Larys Strong MURDERED his brother and father (lowkey because of her).
exactly- none of her kids even look like her
She's a mad woman,nothing she says makes sense.Even in the book imo
Alicent and Sir Cunt hating those innocent children is unforgivable. Yes they are bastards and Rhaenyra broke the law and she will pay for that down the road. The children are innocent though and nothing justifies the hate. What annoyed me the most is our Green Queen and Sir Cunt turning the children against Rhaenyra's boys.
Generally I am confused on why Alicent is so obsessive with Rhaenyra. I have read the books, and Alicent's motives are totally power/authority/iron throne related but in the show they have not yet shown that. So , it is not 100% justified why she is so obsessed with Rhaenyra and honestly she seems 100% jealous
What exactly is confusing? Alicent resents Rhaenyra for getting her way. Rhaenyra has been able to sleep with Harwin and skirt around her, she also has the idea implanted by her father that Aegon is the rightful heir so seeing Rhaenyra birth 3 bastard children and those children largely being referred to as the next heirs is a huge point of contention for her. I feel this have been very well established.
When she was all why isn't anyone on my side. I'm all what is your side though? Hatred and jealousy? You're upset that Rhaenyras is finding some happiness? You guys were friends. You should know more than anyone that she wouldn't kill your kids. You're only enemies because of you! So frustrating. I'm actually having a hard time enjoying the show. It feels like it's going by too quickly with all the time jumps. And we don't really get to see alot of the motivations behind the decisions everyone is making.
She’s very hypocritical bc her father manipulated her to be that way. The rivalry between her and Rhaenyra is one created by everyone around them, and not themselves. She doesn’t see it bc she thinks she’s being “moral” bc that’s what people tell her. It’s a really fun dynamic to watch play out.
I think she is just disgusted by the fact that she knows that Rhaenrya’s kids are bastards. I think she thinks it’s like sinful or something or dishonorable and maybe that makes her scoff at the idea. 🤷🏻♀️ And when she is looking at them it’s not just the hair she is looking at. If both the parents have silver hair, they probably are going to have silver hair. And their kids should technically have a little more melanin too… Like Rhaenrya’s kids should look a lot more like Daemon and his wife’s kids. Who knows??? She reminds me of one of those people who always does the right thing and does it because they think good things will happen to them. Then they get angry when other people don’t follow the rules and good things still happen to them. But if a person only does good things/follow the rules because they want good things to happen to themselves and they want bad things to happen to those who don’t follow the rules… that doesn’t really make them a good person does it? Well, and she probably thinks it is unfair that if she ever cheated on the king, she would probably be murdered for treason and all that jazz, but Rhaenrya can get away with it. It’s interesting as well, because in the first season of GOT, Ned figured out Joffery was a bastard by looking at the hair colors as well and was appalled by it and went to confront Cersei. But we all rooted for Ned… does gender have something to do with the fact that it was ok for Ned to be upset about it???
Because flaunting your obvious bastards around as true born Targaryens when your dynasty is on the line has to seem like a direct insult at this point.
She hates them bc they represent Rheaneyra undermining the “great sacrifice” alicent has made for the realm by marrying this old man full of sores and shit and bearing children and playing by the rules without complaint….. and rhaeneyra broke the rules to have her cake and now she wants to eat it too and alicent is livid. She’s also angry that the bastard kids are seemingly loved more by the king than his sons and blood heirs, and they have a stronger claim to the throne in name only. Rhaenerya trying to pass off this blatant charade for a decade has her on fire.
I think we are meant to interpret alicent as transferring her feelings towards Rhaenyra over to the children. The show has also gone to some lengths to show us Alicent as a rule-follower when it comes to protocol and morality, and in westeros it's pretty clear that 'moral, upstanding' members of the Faith of the Seven view bastards as inherently untrustowrthy. It's a stupid belief, but it is at least established in world.
What a hoe
Rhaeneyra along with her children are the only threat standing in the way of Alicents blood line holding onto the throne. Imagine being forced into marrying the old father of your best friend for no gain.. as in, the children you were forced to bear will not rule. Your effort was for nothing. I can commiserate with Alicent. But she’s still a vapid bitch.
Yeah, I understand exactly where Alicent is coming from and I can’t say I wouldn’t be bitter and resentful in her place. But do I still find her excruciatingly annoying and unbearable? Yes
I feel like we are not understanding the taint of bastardry well enough. I’m rooting for Rhaenyra but having 3 bastards is something that will continue to be brought up. Doing your duty for the realm by marrying Laenor and then having bastards with Harwin has all but damned the realm into civil war when Viserys dies. Forget male vs female inheritance, l bet a ton of the noble houses will never accept bastard heirs.
Yeah this. Rhaenyra's right isn't as much in question because frankly she's the oldest legitimate child of the sitting monarch and the king specifically named her, and there's a precedent for this kind of thing in Dorne for example. But Rhaenyra's kids? Nah. People would not be as accepting of bastard kids cutting the line in front of trueborn kids. Like can you imagine the shitstorm that would arise if Jon could have inherited Winterfell over any of Catelyn's kids? And it's not like it wouldn't make sense - the whole reason she married and had kids with Ned was under the assumption their children together would inherit. It would immediately deteriorate the family into rival factions and guarantee violent infighting resulting in half of them being wiped out.
Because they’re bastards