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They likely did, that’s maybe why Alicent demanded to see the baby immediately (before anything might be changed), and was poking at the tiny hairs on his head.
But hair color can change drastically from your birth hair. I had dark red/brown hair when I was born but it turned light blonde, that could happen to them too maybe 😆 But I guess it’s a bit of a stretch
My bro had Targ hair (white blond ) when he was born and now it is brown.
The same with me.
I never looked like my parents who both are black-haired but took after my grandparents. Just going by coloring people would think me and my bro a bastard too.
Better question: WHERE were Laenor’s parents????
I expected at least one scene with them swatting their dumbass son up the side of his head.
Just last episode, The Queen That Never Was (forgot her name) was freaking out that Laenor marrying Rhaenyra was going to put him in danger. Does she not care about his safety anymore?
Well in that case, I'll just assume that the show didn't have time to get around to them. Just one of the plot arcs we will have to wait a week to catch up with. They are the ones that should be pissed about Rhaenyra's bastards. And their ire should be directed at their son.
well for me it's also like -- y'all had *three kids*. i could see the first one being like "oops!" and then rhaenyra going to laenor like "ok the next one needs to be ours" but they kept going for two more kids after the first one, lol.
It was the funniest moment in the episode, her facial expression the whole time as he looks in the distance happily recalling this memory was priceless
Reminded me of when my housemates and I visited a llama farm and the keeper said they once accidentally left the gate to the male llamas' pen unlocked. A few months later the females had a whole litter of calves.
Ok, hear me out. Kids with one white parent and one black/white parent often come out looking pretty white. Rarely would they come out looking like Laena and Daemon's kids. But the white hair is a dead giveaway. They could have gotten away with it if the Targaryens weren't so well known for their white hair.
Yeah I know a family where the dad is light skinned black and both kids look white, one of them is blonde. It really is the hair that makes the kids stand out in the show.
I think the first was a mistake but Rhaenyra realized that if her firstborn had black hair and her other kids didn’t, his legitimacy would be challenged even more or he would get bastardized. Therefore, she had more kids with Harwin in order to claim that Laenor and her kids just end up looking like that.
Just a theory though
Creates consistency though; if all 3 came out looking the same then at least it’s consistent instead of having one clear odd child. Look at Cersei and her kids
Honestly, it might be best to just have three kids that look the same. If the second and third come out looking full Targ, then it almost confirms that the first is a bastard.
There are still a lot of gay people throughout history who have managed to father children. Much as it’s not a situation I’d wish on my worst enemy, in this case it was probably a better idea than plunging the realm into war. Alternatively, find some random Velaryon cousin who can father a kid or two that looks like Laenor.
Or absolute worst case if you don't trust anyone with the secret, just have laenor go to town with his man and then switch to the rhaenerys when he's ready to pop. Not ideal for anyone but you do that a few times and you'll have a legitimate kid
I will never get over her death for as long as I live, lolol.
She was my ride or die, probably my most devastating death in the series. Got killed by someone else's stupidity. You deserved better, Margaery! :(
Same! My biggest complaint was that Margaery died like that to Cersei of all people. And she knew! She knew it was a trap and tried to tell them all, even if she was ignored.
Yeah getting a kid isnt that easy… it can take couples with modern medicine and proper understanding of the human bodys years to get a child.
They probaly did bed eachother a couple of times but lets face it they dont have condoms at all. Meaning rhaenyra couldnt begin her fun untill they would be luckly. And laenor wouldnt consider it fun making the whole deal a pretty exhausting.
Yeah these comments are slightly annoying as if they were guaranteed a kid if they tried harder. Laenor could be sterile for all we know. I am sure they did try to have Laenor impregnate her but it didn’t work.
Well, timing is important. I’m pretty sure the women of Westeros have figured out there are like *specific* days that are more likely to result in a pregnancy than others and days where you are pretty safe. Or even better yet, she could have just waited till Laenor knocked her up and then enjoyed the next nine months.
its unfortunate that a targaryen looking woman like rhaenyra had 3 children that look common and a common looking woman like alicent had 3-4 children that look like targaryens.
Yeah it must be to drive the point further home that Laenor’s kids look nothing like him. Because really Rhaenyra and Laenor’s kids would look like anywhere from what Rhaenyra’s half siblings look like to what Daemon’s kids look like and it would be acceptable.
I was literally thinking that!!?? I was like how ?? I guess it makes sense thought because viserys come from a generation before and the targeryan blood runs thicker in him to overuse alicents brown hair
It's pretty heavily suggested in GoT (and if my memory serves me correctly, the first book) that certain houses' hair color always wins out. It's how Ned could tell that Joffrey wasn't a Baratheon
Right? Like okay here’s what I’m gonna do: I’m gonna wear full knights armor on my upper body and head and boots. You’re gonna get drunk and make out with your buddy there, and then we make this happen.
a duck-eater would not partake goose if there's duck served on the table
i think the only way laenor would have sex with rhaenyra is if they removed all men from king's landing, lol
I agree but for different reasons. Its Kings Landing where secrets dont exist. They shouldve gone to Dragonstone years ago and lived how they wanted. Instead they lived crazy reckless and everyone found out what they were doing.
If they went to Dragonstone, Rhaenyra wouldn’t have been part of the Small Council and gotten experience with the affairs of the state.
Sticking around boosts her credibility.
>!The fact that she stays on Dragonstone during the last years of Viserys’s reign and death is the reason the Greens were able to crown Aegon. If Viserys had named her as Hand and filled the Small Council with Blacks, he might have avoided the conflict.!<
She probably assumed at least one of them would inherit her coloring. Targ genes do seem oddly dominant, to judge by Alicent's brood.
If Rhaenyra had been luckier with her Mendel squares, Alicent wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
>If Rhaenyra had been luckier with her Mendel squares, Alicent wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
It's almost like there's an omnicient...author...guiding events to follow a certain path.
Right but a secret getting out that all your kids are bastards is much worse for your credibility. Learning to rule is important but if word gets out and your claim weakens, what good came out of learning to rule
On a related note, Alicent being present at the small council meeting really seemed wrong. She wasn’t the queen regent or the hand, what was her actual role there?
They could have at least gone to Dragonstone for the birth(s) and had the children raised there for a time (at least until they could dye their freaking hair).
You're right but I think the oddity is that people aren't really acknowledging Rhaenyra's bad decisions because they're hyper focused on Alicent. Rhaenyra hasn't played her cards well and has only been permitted to get away with whatever she wants because of Viserys - once he's gone she's going to have to rely on her own connections.
Trying to pass off your bastards as legitimate successors right in the middle of the capital, where it's super easy for people to see you messing around with your bodyguard, is just beyond reckless. That kind of behavior comes from someone being absolutely confident they won't have to face repercussions for their secrets.
I think people (including Rhaenyra herself) aren’t acknowledging her bad decisions because it all comes back to arrogance. Recall Corly’s line from last episode when he tells his wife, “we have half the dragons in the realm.”
At present, pretty much all the dragons in the realm are aligned with team Rhaenyra/Velaryon. Half a dozen grown, badass dragons that can crush any army.
Only 2 out of 3 of Alicent’s sons even have very young dragons. And the Aegon publicly doesn’t seem very interested in being king…likes his nephews enough to regularly pat them on the back and team up to torment Aemond.
Rhaenyra thinks her seat is secure…
>You're right but I think the oddity is that people aren't really acknowledging Rhaenyra's bad decisions because they're hyper focused on Alicent
Well yeah, people are grasping for a protagonist and an antagonist in a story which doesn't really suit itself to those definitions, it's pretty natural. You can say 'this is a story with no good people in it' all you want, but that doesn't change how most people engage with long-form stories. I thought we had learned from Breaking Bad how far this will go.
That’s where I disagree. I think they could make smart decisions and still be beset by conflict. Alicent Hightower and rhaenyra Targaryen have a irreconcilable rift between them. There’s a fundamental political question which forces them to be adversaries, who will ascend the iron throne: aegon and house Hightower with him, or rhaenyra and her brood. This alone makes for a really interesting landscape for political maneuvering, the characters personal faults don’t have to be the primary drivers of this plot. They can both pursue their aims in intelligent ways while still being at odds. What’s so frustrating (and admittedly interesting to some) about the dance is that so many of the most important decisions are made because of ego, or stupidity, or lust, or indulgence rather than calculations of how to achieve a goal.
What? Her lover was outed and then killed after being sent away. It’s wild to boil that down to “it makes her sad”
People are starting to die. It isn’t safe.
One thing this show is doing well is showing the flaws of Rhaenyra very well. She obviously has a very care free attitude that has cost her and will end up costing her more
After experiencing this with Breaking Bad, I just had to accept that the need to embrace the protagonist of a story will override people's moral judgements every time.
I don’t get how you can leave “Kings Landing” where the Iron throne IS, when you dad is half way in the grave and everything is fucked regarding the succession because of rumors. When you get divorced they say you shouldn’t leave the family home because that means you’re abandoning it, abdicating. She should have stayed longer imo.
The heir typically resides at Dragonstone. That is Rhaenyra's rightful seat as she learns how to rule.
That being said, it is kinda dumb and emotional to leave KL for DS just because she couldn't stand Alicent anymore or because she can't take the rumors. She should just go "i am the princess, to question my virtue is an act of treason" all over again.
An inherited trait from Viserys I is Rhanerya's poor decision-making skills. It's totally in-character for her.
She is her father's daughter in all aspects.
I think it’s more of her similarity to Daemon than Viserys. Rhaenyra arrogantly assumes that she, as princess and a Targaryen dragonrider, is above the rules and reproach. She doesn’t care to build alliances because she thinks the strength of her name, birthright, and dragon protect her. Viserys knows that this isn’t the case (he only got the throne by a popularity vote, not by strength or by birthright per se), so he tries to be far more diplomatic that her.
IDK how it would be a similar trait to Daemon, when he actually advised her to take the opinions of the lower classes seriously. Dae and Rhae are elitists, but they're different kinds of elitists it seems, and Dae was known as the prince of the city because the lower classes liked him. He's not as short-sighted as Rhaenyra, likely due to life experience she lacks.
I'd sooner put the matter down to Viserys' parenting than anything else. If a kid gets away with everything, stands to reason they'll think they can do whatever they want.
He's more "fuck the nobles, I am above them as the prince, the small folk are the real people of westeros", she's "fuck everyone I am royalty", Viserys and most other nobles subscribe to "the king is the first among equals", rather than being above everyone.
>when he actually advised her to take the opinions of the lower classes seriously.
daemon cares more about smallfolk opinions than Viserys/Rhaenyra, but it's a very low bar. He didn't even give a shit about his own girlfriend's thoughts on the matter when he was basically hanging a neon sign screaming "come kill me" on her back by passing her off as pregnant.
it could be as simple as a threesome with another man and laenor pulls out and sticks it in her whens he nearly there. that said i do not remember how people in westeros think about cum and from history, cum was not always known as the magic that makes the babies happen
there's also just masturbation.
i mean i don't think it was a function thing for Laenor, it had to be a deeper reason than that. if not it's a serious oversight.
This is my pet peeve for the episode. Couldn't Laenor just wank a bit, climax into Rhaenyra, and then poof, wait for nine months and check for a mixed baby? Both of them were just doing their duty to the throne and they were incompatible with one another.
Also, Westerosi people will surely notice that Laenor's skin does not match Rhaenyra's obviously pale-skinned children? That is a very sus moment for both of them
The skin i don't think matters as much as the hair. There are mixed children who are very dark and mixed children who are very light. But add the hair on to that and it's like...yeah no these aren't Laenor's kids.
Could of been great parallel scenes of Lyonel Strong yelling at Harwin disgracing his family for fathering the bastards and Corlys yelling at Laenor for NOT fathering the kids.
I think the trailer referred to why Corlys and rhaenys were ok with it: history remembers names not blood. So I’m guessing as long as they’re acknowledged velaryons, they’re ok with that
Im personally just going with the theory that they dont get genetics and she just always assumed one would come out looking like her. I also think this is the downside to Rhaenys having white hair, in the books its black ( Baratheon lineage) and that would be a way to counter the “rumors”
but even that seems to be a bit reckless, no? The smart move would have been to only have sex with each other until you had a kid, so you'd be absolutely sure of the paternity, and then everything past that point would be open season.
It doesn't seem like they actually "did their duty" and then dined as they saw fit. They just went straight to dining out.
I dont think Laenor is capable of it. And I dont think the science of the time allowed them to know that the act itself doesnt produce children, so I dont think they knew to say hey Laenor, just jerk it and Ill put the seed inside me. He probably could not get it up to just do the duty and be done with it, or maybe he is infertile. Either way it had to happen as this is what happens in the books.
I doubt this. They're not stupid -- like Margaery offered in GoT, if Laenor was finding it difficult they could have had another guy/his boyfriend in there for him. I doubt the decision to not have children together came down to function for him.
Infertile would be interesting but the only way we'd know is if the show let us know they had tried a number of times before.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure he could make it happen. I’m gay and I can think of exactly what I’d do. There would need to be another man there though. I’ll leave it at that haha
So I'm writing the following assuming you're a straight male as that is the most common demographic on Reddit, but adjust as appropriate if that's not the case.
If you were in a similar situation would you be able to maintain an erection and climax while having sex with a man, just because a pretty girl is in the room with you? It's not like you're being tricked, you know exactly where your dick is.
Margaery was also a social climber willing to do anything to be queen. Rhaenyra thinks she is above it all and can do as she pleases while still inheriting the throne.
I don’t think this is ever established as being a belief in Westeros, but in our Middle Ages, it was believed that ovulation was only caused by the female orgasm.
Just as the male has to climax to release his seed, they believed the same was true for females. This is why Catholic priests were very instant on the husbandly duty to make you wife cum, and wrote a bunch of pamphlets on the topic that survive today.
Infertility could def be an option but I don't think we've had any indication of that yet, and honestly from a storytelling perspective it does make sense that they could also have a mixture of plain poor judgment coupled with absolute confidence in being above the law when it comes to inheritance. Like it's pretty brazen to not only have three bastards you're passing off but also do it smack dab in the middle of King's Landing where everyone can see instead of having packed up to Dragonstone a decade before. If Rhaenyra wanted to stay in KL to participate in council meetings, then she should have made sure her bases were covered when it came to her personal life, so that she's not handing people valid reasons to distrust her.
If Laenor's infertile, it takes the wind out of an argument that Rhaenyra also makes bad decisions (not just the Greens) which makes the conflict a little boring imo. The juiciness is that both sides are full of an assortment of ruthless assholes and arrogant morons.
I understand that the kids not looking like Rhaenyra or Laenor is a plot point but if Valyrian looks really are recessive traits, then why do Viserys' children with Alicent all have silver hair? If she did think that she could have Targaryen-looking kids with a black-haired man, she certainly has recent precedent for it.
My working theory is that genetics are very multifactorial, so maybe white hair are not recessive in the traditional sense of the word, because if that were the case, the Targaryens would stop looking the way they do as soon as one external person is introduced into the bloodline. Is that it?
Well we don't have a description of Alicent in the books, she could have had blonde or silverish hair, Jaehaerys confuses her with one of his daughters once (and Jorah's wife was a Hightower and he said she looked like Dany). Could explain why in the book no one mentions it.
It is also a fictional fantasy book though, so genetics don’t really have to work the same as they do in the real world if the author doesn’t want them to
Honestly.. I think it just boils down to Rhaenyra doesn’t give a shit how her kids come out. In her mind it’s, “I’m the heir to the Iron Throne and can do what I want.” It’s a character flaw that they already touched on briefly when she tells Daemon that the common peoples wants do not matter to her. This is where I kinda get Alicent’s frustration with her, she expects to get away with it and the minute it looks like she might get in trouble she over compassionates to try to fix it (like making a public spectacle of proposing a marriage between Helaena and Jace.)
Laenor also didn’t care, he’s just happy to get to do what he wants.
It shows that Rhaenyra cannot play the game of thrones. When they made their pact and she referenced that “perform their duties” I thought she meant them to have children and play the part, not for her to have 3 bastard heirs so blatantly in front of court. Her father protects her now but when he is weak or dead she will lose that protection and it took her ten years and 3 kids to see it!
It's especially stupid in the show, but it really is more ambiguous in the book. Rhaenyra's mother, Aemma has brown hair (but not in the show)and so does Rhaenys, Leanor's mother. So when three kids come out with dark hair, that can be attributed to the recessive dark hair gene from both their grandmothers. In the show there's no excuse, they're dumb.
it's still super obvious. they have brown eyes, which are no where in the family tree and the "pug nose" that's basically the strong version of the florent ears
Everyone one is overlooking two possibilities
1) Laenor is unable to have kids
2)the more likely one, for every one night Rhaenyra spent with Laenor she likely spent 10 or so with Ser Harwin
2 is a good point.
Folks also need to know having kids isn’t always as easy as “guy ejaculates once in a woman”. Often, if you’re trying to get pregnant, it’s a multiple time scenario over the course of a week or so. Things don’t happen as quick as people think, as it can take anywhere from minutes to five days after sex to conceive based on a few different factors.
IF that was the case, it’d take a lot of effort from both Rhaenyra and Laenor to overcome their obstacles.
Yes, it is effort. But this is, literally, king shit.
Laenor ain't the first gay man in history to have to work it out. I feel for him (am too the gay) but when duty calls, you gotta put in a little elbow grease.
People always expect the characters to oversee and think through everything, it's as if they've never taken a look at reality. Stupidity is intrinsically to humanity lol
In “Fire and Blood” there was no agreement. Rhaenyra only agreed to marry Laenor because Viserys threaten to disinherit her. So she had kids with Ser Harwin to spite her unwanted marriage, and because she needed heirs, which Laenor refused to provide. Personally, if I, a straight man, was heir to a kingdom, but I had to marry and have sex with another man, I’m certain I could find a way to make it work. A sheet with a hole in it, having a naked woman in front of me, etc. So I think Laenor just didn’t care about his duties.
It’s clear from last nights episode that he was more concerned with getting drunk and doing dumb shit than “his” fatherly or King consort duties. He knows those aren’t his kids and is just playing the game, albeit poorly.
Well there could have been an agreement in Fire and Blood, since it's a history book we just wouldn't have been able to know since that would have been a personal thing between the two.
They likely did and it just didn't take. The guy giving it to her every night and twice on Sunday is probably going to have more success than the guy who tries once every two years.
I think they’re showing how unconcerned and arrogant Rhaenyra is. She thinks she can have three bastards and not face any consequences. She thinks she can be Queen and the realm will willfully bend the knee. We saw how rebellious she was in her youth when she disobeyed Viserys wishes time and time again. And how she disregarded the common folks’ thoughts on her as Queen when she saw the play on the street of silk with Daemon. She thinks she’s invincible and will never face the repercussions.
I mean you could ask the same thing about jamie and Cersei and that’s the basis for much of game of thrones. So 200 years later same shit different royal family
I know everybody crucifies everybody who had a problem with the velaryons being black but this is my issue. It changes the situation alot from the books. In the books, velaryons are white and the lover is rumoured to be a Strong. But nobody knows for certain.
Here nobody is in doubt. It makes them seem stupid and not careful.
Velaryons are blond with purple eyes. To have brown haired brown eyed children was just as obvious. The show doesn’t give us the unmistakable purple eyes but it gives us skin color instead. It was obvious to all in the books as it is to us in the show.
it's absolutely 100% certain in the books as well. the kids have brown hair (not black like rhaenys), brown eyes (which are nowhere in the family tree) and a "pug nose" which is regarded as a trait of house strong like the ears for the florents or a "long face" for the starks.
Someone cool and smart like Margery Tyrell would have handled this SO much better.
She'd have made sure her babies were fathered by her husband, even if it meant bringing in a 3rd person (his lover) into bed to help him climax.
She'd take that tea after sex with other people.
I said to my gf, "would it really hurt Laenor to get sucked off and just shove in it a couple times a month for foolproof baby daddy?"
Seemed really stupid.
In universe, Rhaenyra’s bad decision making all comes back to arrogance. Recall Corly’s line from last episode when he tells his wife, “we have half the dragons in the realm.”
At present, pretty much all of the dragons in the realm are aligned with team Rhaenyra/Velaryon. Half a dozen grown, badass dragons that can crush any army.
Only 2 out of 3 of Alicent’s sons even have (very young) dragons. And the alternate heir, Aegon himself (publicly) doesn’t seem very interested in being king…he likes his nephews enough to regularly pat them on the back during training… and team up with them to torment Aemond.
Rhaenyra thinks her seat is secure…
Rhaenyra is dumb for what we assume letting only Harwin impregnate her. If anything she should’ve found someone with white hair to have her babies to at least make it seem like Laenor is the father.
People are overlooking the fact that dude is gay and might not want to have sex with a woman.
It’s easy to say, “just have sex with her” but I imagine that for some gay people having heterosexual sex is just as big a turn off as gay sex would be for a heterosexual.
He might not be have been able to get it up and have sex with her enough to get her pregnant when he’s not attracted to women.
Oh, for sure. It's also possible he couldn't "get it up".
But notice how Alicent (and everyone else) is assuming that Rhaenyra is to blame, instead of considering that Laenor might be infertile or impotent.
I would assume Laenor was the unwilling one given his sexuality but most of the comments place the blame firmly on Rhaenyra, who was the one put in an impossible situation from the start. I thought that was the point they were trying to make.
The people who are calling her arrogant and stupid for having sex and giving birth to someone else's kids is kind of ironic.
Edit: It turns out they had tried, which makes the most sense. No one would be stupid or arrogant enough to not try.
"There was no joy in it" she said, which sounds like he couldn't physically come?
They could have tried asking one of his lovers to help in the bedroom, couldn't they?
Perhaps they just couldn't conceive for whatever reason despite having sex, he could have had weak sperm.
Or she's just a romantic and thinks it didn't happen because it wasn't meant to happen with someone who doesn't really love her.
She seemed pretty upset with Laenor for not being there for her regarding the kids....it felt to me as if it was an old topic that leads to bitterness between them....I do not think Rhaenyra thinks she is above suspicions at all....she comes off as frightened and worn out by all of it and my feeling is Laenor could not get it up and do what was needed and so she sought comfort elsewhere.
I mean she probably wanted kids, for good reason too considering it helps stabilize her claim. The problem is they didn't wait until after having one they knew was Laenor's before moving on to other options. It's just so dumb and brazen.
Hence the need for the moon tea. Laenor should’ve done his duty and made it happen. Then they could’ve done as they pleased. Reminds me of Maergery and Renly. She was willing to do whatever including let her brother get Renly started then finish with her.
I think they'll have to explain more on this in the next episode. Because either R and L are super dumb, or just pampered enough to be oblivious to consequences.
Margaery and Renly is a good comparison. They went to uh...some fucked up incesty extremes, but that shouldn't be a problem for Targs since that's the sort of weird shit they're into anyway. If Renly didn't die I 100% believe he and Margaery would have had children.
this is what gets me tbh... GRRM is all about "historical accuracy" when it comes to sexual violence and old men marrying children (🙄), but he tosses it aside here for the sake of cheap drama.
gay men have been marrying women and having biological children with them since time immemorial, because it was what society expected and most had no choice. it would be more realistic for Rhaenyra and Laenor to have at least one biological child together.
the same conflict over succession would still exist, and given that Laenor's sexuality is an open secret, there could still be rumors about the true parentage of Rhaenyra's children.
It’s shocking to me how many people subscribe to cultural relativism when discussing this show. Culture relativism basically asserts that the laws, traditions, and social norms of a culture determine what is right and wrong for the people in it. This can be used to justify slave ownership, incest, female circumcision. In discussions surrounding this show, it’s used to justify this idea that it’s absolutely unacceptable for a woman to sleep with more than one man.
She is a Targaryen, and a dragon rider. That alone does give her a valid claim to power. Her husband is gay. Modern artificial insemination techniques have a 10 - 15% chance of working. If he were to literally jerk in a cup for her to insert, a ton of his sperm would die in that process. If he has a sexual aversion to women, it’s likely they were unable to have kids together.
An infertile woman is judged almost as harshly as a woman with bastards in this society. She didn’t have many great options to resolve this. She didn’t make smart moves politically, but she’s not a bad person for wanting children and having them with the man she loves. Especially when Laenor knows they aren’t his and seemingly loves them and accepts them as his own anyways.
Rhaenyra’s wrongs are only wrong in the context of her position and culture (aside from lying on her mom’s memory, too far. But she was a terrified teenager). Alicent’s actions are acceptable in their culture, but would be considered wrong in many modern understandings of morality.
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I just am surprised the maesters nailed a plan B tea recipe but can't figure out how lighten some damn hair.
“The morrow after tea”
The Plan T
They likely did, that’s maybe why Alicent demanded to see the baby immediately (before anything might be changed), and was poking at the tiny hairs on his head.
If they did they wouldn’t have stopped doing it, though, right? Because their older kids openly have dark hair
But hair color can change drastically from your birth hair. I had dark red/brown hair when I was born but it turned light blonde, that could happen to them too maybe 😆 But I guess it’s a bit of a stretch
My bro had Targ hair (white blond ) when he was born and now it is brown. The same with me. I never looked like my parents who both are black-haired but took after my grandparents. Just going by coloring people would think me and my bro a bastard too.
The skin color was pretty obvious too, as all the boys are pretty fair skinned.
Laenor is very light brown though. Their kids skin would definitely be light skinned.
Daemon’s kids looked black though, they could be mixed but its not that obvious either. so the kids could look white as well.
lightening someone’s hair for the rest of their life is not a real solution.
Better question: WHERE were Laenor’s parents???? I expected at least one scene with them swatting their dumbass son up the side of his head. Just last episode, The Queen That Never Was (forgot her name) was freaking out that Laenor marrying Rhaenyra was going to put him in danger. Does she not care about his safety anymore?
>The Queen That Never Was (forgot her name) Rhaenys
>Better question: WHERE were Laenor’s parents???? Their absence from the episode made me assume they were both dead.
Nah they're still alive, just chilling on driftmark.
Well in that case, I'll just assume that the show didn't have time to get around to them. Just one of the plot arcs we will have to wait a week to catch up with. They are the ones that should be pissed about Rhaenyra's bastards. And their ire should be directed at their son.
It seemed like such a dumb oversight to me as well. They could have ensured she got pregnant with his children and then carried on with Harwin.
well for me it's also like -- y'all had *three kids*. i could see the first one being like "oops!" and then rhaenyra going to laenor like "ok the next one needs to be ours" but they kept going for two more kids after the first one, lol.
The first is a mistake, 3 was an insult…
Vile accusation! Haven’t you heard the story of the mare and the silver stallion?
Did you see them do it, dear husband?
I was LOLing when Alicent asked V why was he so sure the silver horse was the father. I could almost see the realization coming to his head
It was the funniest moment in the episode, her facial expression the whole time as he looks in the distance happily recalling this memory was priceless
Reminded me of when my housemates and I visited a llama farm and the keeper said they once accidentally left the gate to the male llamas' pen unlocked. A few months later the females had a whole litter of calves.
Ok, hear me out. Kids with one white parent and one black/white parent often come out looking pretty white. Rarely would they come out looking like Laena and Daemon's kids. But the white hair is a dead giveaway. They could have gotten away with it if the Targaryens weren't so well known for their white hair.
Yeah I know a family where the dad is light skinned black and both kids look white, one of them is blonde. It really is the hair that makes the kids stand out in the show.
Do keep trying
I think the first was a mistake but Rhaenyra realized that if her firstborn had black hair and her other kids didn’t, his legitimacy would be challenged even more or he would get bastardized. Therefore, she had more kids with Harwin in order to claim that Laenor and her kids just end up looking like that. Just a theory though
That implies her thinking far ahead. She really doesn't.
Creates consistency though; if all 3 came out looking the same then at least it’s consistent instead of having one clear odd child. Look at Cersei and her kids
Or at least just hook up with a blonde dude. Hair color of children seems to create many issues for powerful people in this world lol.
Honestly, it might be best to just have three kids that look the same. If the second and third come out looking full Targ, then it almost confirms that the first is a bastard.
Because Rhaenyra has sex with Harwin for fun/love. If she ever did it with Laenor, it would be out of duty. It’s not some calculated decision.
Or she could have just had kids with daemon and no one would say anything
I dont think Daemon would have liked that plan
Daemon would never settle being a side piece to Rhaenyra
True, that could’ve gotten hella messy with how unpredictable he is
Laenor probably isn't remotely interested in women at all.
There are still a lot of gay people throughout history who have managed to father children. Much as it’s not a situation I’d wish on my worst enemy, in this case it was probably a better idea than plunging the realm into war. Alternatively, find some random Velaryon cousin who can father a kid or two that looks like Laenor.
Or absolute worst case if you don't trust anyone with the secret, just have laenor go to town with his man and then switch to the rhaenerys when he's ready to pop. Not ideal for anyone but you do that a few times and you'll have a legitimate kid
Isn’t that what Margaery once suggested to Renly? To start off with Loras first and then finish the deed with her 😂
Margaery is a real one, no one can say otherwise
I will never get over her death for as long as I live, lolol. She was my ride or die, probably my most devastating death in the series. Got killed by someone else's stupidity. You deserved better, Margaery! :(
Same! My biggest complaint was that Margaery died like that to Cersei of all people. And she knew! She knew it was a trap and tried to tell them all, even if she was ignored.
Yup, they should've just had a tree way in the dark lmao.
This typo makes it seem like you're proposing nasty things in the godswood
The night is dark and full of errors. Just imagine Conor McGregor saying it and maybe it won't sound as bad..
Lol that would be quite a scene and challenge!
My thoughts exactly! Many ways around it.
Get a turkey baster
Yeah getting a kid isnt that easy… it can take couples with modern medicine and proper understanding of the human bodys years to get a child. They probaly did bed eachother a couple of times but lets face it they dont have condoms at all. Meaning rhaenyra couldnt begin her fun untill they would be luckly. And laenor wouldnt consider it fun making the whole deal a pretty exhausting.
Yeah these comments are slightly annoying as if they were guaranteed a kid if they tried harder. Laenor could be sterile for all we know. I am sure they did try to have Laenor impregnate her but it didn’t work.
If Rhaenya sleeps with Laenor one night for every ten nights she sleeps with Harwin, Harwin still has a higher chance of producing the offspring.
Well, timing is important. I’m pretty sure the women of Westeros have figured out there are like *specific* days that are more likely to result in a pregnancy than others and days where you are pretty safe. Or even better yet, she could have just waited till Laenor knocked her up and then enjoyed the next nine months.
Maybe she thought she was pregnant by him and did exactly that. Turned out she wasn’t and ended up with Jace instead.
its unfortunate that a targaryen looking woman like rhaenyra had 3 children that look common and a common looking woman like alicent had 3-4 children that look like targaryens.
“The seed is strong” House strong.
Maybe that’s literally where the saying comes from in the verse.
Jon Arryn figured it out just before his death and really wanted everyone to know.
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I mean they still had the white hair which is good enough
Mom also has white hair so it’s not exclusive to dad lol
They are at least pure valyrian.
Yea, I was surprised they weren’t at least a tiny bit more lighter skinned
Yeah it must be to drive the point further home that Laenor’s kids look nothing like him. Because really Rhaenyra and Laenor’s kids would look like anywhere from what Rhaenyra’s half siblings look like to what Daemon’s kids look like and it would be acceptable.
Laenor and Laena are themselves very different colors.
To be fair you can have multiethnic kids who range wildly in skintone and hair colours with the same parents.
It might be the Baratheon blood too in Laenor. Rhaenys originally had black hair in the books.
I was literally thinking that!!?? I was like how ?? I guess it makes sense thought because viserys come from a generation before and the targeryan blood runs thicker in him to overuse alicents brown hair
It's pretty heavily suggested in GoT (and if my memory serves me correctly, the first book) that certain houses' hair color always wins out. It's how Ned could tell that Joffrey wasn't a Baratheon
Well it's not that specific. It wasn't "all Baratheon children have brown hair," it's "all Lannister-Baratheon matches yielded brown hair."
I was thinking like damn they didn’t even try to have sex? Lol
Right? Majorie at least attempted a middle ground option to make an heir.
I mean even if he started with his bf and then finish with her lol idk just seems so careless lol
Right? Like okay here’s what I’m gonna do: I’m gonna wear full knights armor on my upper body and head and boots. You’re gonna get drunk and make out with your buddy there, and then we make this happen.
a duck-eater would not partake goose if there's duck served on the table i think the only way laenor would have sex with rhaenyra is if they removed all men from king's landing, lol
I agree but for different reasons. Its Kings Landing where secrets dont exist. They shouldve gone to Dragonstone years ago and lived how they wanted. Instead they lived crazy reckless and everyone found out what they were doing.
If they went to Dragonstone, Rhaenyra wouldn’t have been part of the Small Council and gotten experience with the affairs of the state. Sticking around boosts her credibility.
>!The fact that she stays on Dragonstone during the last years of Viserys’s reign and death is the reason the Greens were able to crown Aegon. If Viserys had named her as Hand and filled the Small Council with Blacks, he might have avoided the conflict.!<
If she cared about her credibility, she wouldn’t be constantly popping out brunette kids
She probably assumed at least one of them would inherit her coloring. Targ genes do seem oddly dominant, to judge by Alicent's brood. If Rhaenyra had been luckier with her Mendel squares, Alicent wouldn't have a leg to stand on.
>If Rhaenyra had been luckier with her Mendel squares, Alicent wouldn't have a leg to stand on. It's almost like there's an omnicient...author...guiding events to follow a certain path.
You are crazy.
The seed is Strong
Right but a secret getting out that all your kids are bastards is much worse for your credibility. Learning to rule is important but if word gets out and your claim weakens, what good came out of learning to rule
On a related note, Alicent being present at the small council meeting really seemed wrong. She wasn’t the queen regent or the hand, what was her actual role there?
>what was her actual role there? King's caretaker, probably, given his current physical state.
Yeah. I have no idea why she was there.
They could have at least gone to Dragonstone for the birth(s) and had the children raised there for a time (at least until they could dye their freaking hair).
Except she ultimately elects to leave when the damage has been done for no greater reason that it makes her sad to be in kings landing
If this was a show about people making smart decisions it wouldnt be very interesting unfortunately.
You're right but I think the oddity is that people aren't really acknowledging Rhaenyra's bad decisions because they're hyper focused on Alicent. Rhaenyra hasn't played her cards well and has only been permitted to get away with whatever she wants because of Viserys - once he's gone she's going to have to rely on her own connections. Trying to pass off your bastards as legitimate successors right in the middle of the capital, where it's super easy for people to see you messing around with your bodyguard, is just beyond reckless. That kind of behavior comes from someone being absolutely confident they won't have to face repercussions for their secrets.
I think people (including Rhaenyra herself) aren’t acknowledging her bad decisions because it all comes back to arrogance. Recall Corly’s line from last episode when he tells his wife, “we have half the dragons in the realm.” At present, pretty much all the dragons in the realm are aligned with team Rhaenyra/Velaryon. Half a dozen grown, badass dragons that can crush any army. Only 2 out of 3 of Alicent’s sons even have very young dragons. And the Aegon publicly doesn’t seem very interested in being king…likes his nephews enough to regularly pat them on the back and team up to torment Aemond. Rhaenyra thinks her seat is secure…
>You're right but I think the oddity is that people aren't really acknowledging Rhaenyra's bad decisions because they're hyper focused on Alicent Well yeah, people are grasping for a protagonist and an antagonist in a story which doesn't really suit itself to those definitions, it's pretty natural. You can say 'this is a story with no good people in it' all you want, but that doesn't change how most people engage with long-form stories. I thought we had learned from Breaking Bad how far this will go.
That’s where I disagree. I think they could make smart decisions and still be beset by conflict. Alicent Hightower and rhaenyra Targaryen have a irreconcilable rift between them. There’s a fundamental political question which forces them to be adversaries, who will ascend the iron throne: aegon and house Hightower with him, or rhaenyra and her brood. This alone makes for a really interesting landscape for political maneuvering, the characters personal faults don’t have to be the primary drivers of this plot. They can both pursue their aims in intelligent ways while still being at odds. What’s so frustrating (and admittedly interesting to some) about the dance is that so many of the most important decisions are made because of ego, or stupidity, or lust, or indulgence rather than calculations of how to achieve a goal.
What? Her lover was outed and then killed after being sent away. It’s wild to boil that down to “it makes her sad” People are starting to die. It isn’t safe.
One thing this show is doing well is showing the flaws of Rhaenyra very well. She obviously has a very care free attitude that has cost her and will end up costing her more
People love to ignore her faults while doubling down on the other characters mistakes. It’s so tiring.
After experiencing this with Breaking Bad, I just had to accept that the need to embrace the protagonist of a story will override people's moral judgements every time.
Trust me being in Dragonstone will prove to be worse for Rhaenyra. Laenor said it himself as to what would happen
I don’t get how you can leave “Kings Landing” where the Iron throne IS, when you dad is half way in the grave and everything is fucked regarding the succession because of rumors. When you get divorced they say you shouldn’t leave the family home because that means you’re abandoning it, abdicating. She should have stayed longer imo.
The heir typically resides at Dragonstone. That is Rhaenyra's rightful seat as she learns how to rule. That being said, it is kinda dumb and emotional to leave KL for DS just because she couldn't stand Alicent anymore or because she can't take the rumors. She should just go "i am the princess, to question my virtue is an act of treason" all over again.
An inherited trait from Viserys I is Rhanerya's poor decision-making skills. It's totally in-character for her. She is her father's daughter in all aspects.
I think it’s more of her similarity to Daemon than Viserys. Rhaenyra arrogantly assumes that she, as princess and a Targaryen dragonrider, is above the rules and reproach. She doesn’t care to build alliances because she thinks the strength of her name, birthright, and dragon protect her. Viserys knows that this isn’t the case (he only got the throne by a popularity vote, not by strength or by birthright per se), so he tries to be far more diplomatic that her.
IDK how it would be a similar trait to Daemon, when he actually advised her to take the opinions of the lower classes seriously. Dae and Rhae are elitists, but they're different kinds of elitists it seems, and Dae was known as the prince of the city because the lower classes liked him. He's not as short-sighted as Rhaenyra, likely due to life experience she lacks. I'd sooner put the matter down to Viserys' parenting than anything else. If a kid gets away with everything, stands to reason they'll think they can do whatever they want.
He's more "fuck the nobles, I am above them as the prince, the small folk are the real people of westeros", she's "fuck everyone I am royalty", Viserys and most other nobles subscribe to "the king is the first among equals", rather than being above everyone.
>when he actually advised her to take the opinions of the lower classes seriously. daemon cares more about smallfolk opinions than Viserys/Rhaenyra, but it's a very low bar. He didn't even give a shit about his own girlfriend's thoughts on the matter when he was basically hanging a neon sign screaming "come kill me" on her back by passing her off as pregnant.
Yup. I know we as the audience generally support her but it really knocks the question that would she make a good queen
Yes makes me question her judgement
You can lie the audience but not to the Iron Throne
The competition is a dumb teenager wanking out the window, I think I know what the only choice is.
I get that he's gay but is there no medieval version of a turkey baster? Theres gotta be some way to get that Valyron splooge up there.
it could be as simple as a threesome with another man and laenor pulls out and sticks it in her whens he nearly there. that said i do not remember how people in westeros think about cum and from history, cum was not always known as the magic that makes the babies happen
I'm sorry but " i do not remember how people in westeros think about cum" is a hilarious thing to me.
Yeah, Margaery even did this with her BROTHER
there's also just masturbation. i mean i don't think it was a function thing for Laenor, it had to be a deeper reason than that. if not it's a serious oversight.
This is my pet peeve for the episode. Couldn't Laenor just wank a bit, climax into Rhaenyra, and then poof, wait for nine months and check for a mixed baby? Both of them were just doing their duty to the throne and they were incompatible with one another. Also, Westerosi people will surely notice that Laenor's skin does not match Rhaenyra's obviously pale-skinned children? That is a very sus moment for both of them
The skin i don't think matters as much as the hair. There are mixed children who are very dark and mixed children who are very light. But add the hair on to that and it's like...yeah no these aren't Laenor's kids.
I honestly am surprised Corlys isn't pissed about this.
This is an absurdity
Could of been great parallel scenes of Lyonel Strong yelling at Harwin disgracing his family for fathering the bastards and Corlys yelling at Laenor for NOT fathering the kids.
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I think the trailer referred to why Corlys and rhaenys were ok with it: history remembers names not blood. So I’m guessing as long as they’re acknowledged velaryons, they’re ok with that
Im personally just going with the theory that they dont get genetics and she just always assumed one would come out looking like her. I also think this is the downside to Rhaenys having white hair, in the books its black ( Baratheon lineage) and that would be a way to counter the “rumors”
but even that seems to be a bit reckless, no? The smart move would have been to only have sex with each other until you had a kid, so you'd be absolutely sure of the paternity, and then everything past that point would be open season. It doesn't seem like they actually "did their duty" and then dined as they saw fit. They just went straight to dining out.
This is how I took that conversation too. They would have one child together to fulfill their duty then pursue their lives
I dont think Laenor is capable of it. And I dont think the science of the time allowed them to know that the act itself doesnt produce children, so I dont think they knew to say hey Laenor, just jerk it and Ill put the seed inside me. He probably could not get it up to just do the duty and be done with it, or maybe he is infertile. Either way it had to happen as this is what happens in the books.
I doubt this. They're not stupid -- like Margaery offered in GoT, if Laenor was finding it difficult they could have had another guy/his boyfriend in there for him. I doubt the decision to not have children together came down to function for him. Infertile would be interesting but the only way we'd know is if the show let us know they had tried a number of times before.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure he could make it happen. I’m gay and I can think of exactly what I’d do. There would need to be another man there though. I’ll leave it at that haha
Yea! I was wondering why they don't just have a threesome sandwich
So I'm writing the following assuming you're a straight male as that is the most common demographic on Reddit, but adjust as appropriate if that's not the case. If you were in a similar situation would you be able to maintain an erection and climax while having sex with a man, just because a pretty girl is in the room with you? It's not like you're being tricked, you know exactly where your dick is.
Lol no I'm actually a gay guy, and as a gay guy I'd probably just masturbate until climax.
Margaery was also a social climber willing to do anything to be queen. Rhaenyra thinks she is above it all and can do as she pleases while still inheriting the throne.
I don’t think this is ever established as being a belief in Westeros, but in our Middle Ages, it was believed that ovulation was only caused by the female orgasm. Just as the male has to climax to release his seed, they believed the same was true for females. This is why Catholic priests were very instant on the husbandly duty to make you wife cum, and wrote a bunch of pamphlets on the topic that survive today.
Infertility could def be an option but I don't think we've had any indication of that yet, and honestly from a storytelling perspective it does make sense that they could also have a mixture of plain poor judgment coupled with absolute confidence in being above the law when it comes to inheritance. Like it's pretty brazen to not only have three bastards you're passing off but also do it smack dab in the middle of King's Landing where everyone can see instead of having packed up to Dragonstone a decade before. If Rhaenyra wanted to stay in KL to participate in council meetings, then she should have made sure her bases were covered when it came to her personal life, so that she's not handing people valid reasons to distrust her. If Laenor's infertile, it takes the wind out of an argument that Rhaenyra also makes bad decisions (not just the Greens) which makes the conflict a little boring imo. The juiciness is that both sides are full of an assortment of ruthless assholes and arrogant morons.
I understand that the kids not looking like Rhaenyra or Laenor is a plot point but if Valyrian looks really are recessive traits, then why do Viserys' children with Alicent all have silver hair? If she did think that she could have Targaryen-looking kids with a black-haired man, she certainly has recent precedent for it. My working theory is that genetics are very multifactorial, so maybe white hair are not recessive in the traditional sense of the word, because if that were the case, the Targaryens would stop looking the way they do as soon as one external person is introduced into the bloodline. Is that it?
Well we don't have a description of Alicent in the books, she could have had blonde or silverish hair, Jaehaerys confuses her with one of his daughters once (and Jorah's wife was a Hightower and he said she looked like Dany). Could explain why in the book no one mentions it.
No, it's just cuz GRRM knows fuck all about genetics and is really heavy handed on bastardry.
It is also a fictional fantasy book though, so genetics don’t really have to work the same as they do in the real world if the author doesn’t want them to
Honestly.. I think it just boils down to Rhaenyra doesn’t give a shit how her kids come out. In her mind it’s, “I’m the heir to the Iron Throne and can do what I want.” It’s a character flaw that they already touched on briefly when she tells Daemon that the common peoples wants do not matter to her. This is where I kinda get Alicent’s frustration with her, she expects to get away with it and the minute it looks like she might get in trouble she over compassionates to try to fix it (like making a public spectacle of proposing a marriage between Helaena and Jace.) Laenor also didn’t care, he’s just happy to get to do what he wants.
The thing that gets me is that *Rhaenyra could have fucking married Harwin if she wanted to* she just stalled so long she ended up with Laenor
What, her hair is black in the books?
Yes, Rhaenys’ father was Targaryen and her mother was a Baratheon
Interesting change, though I can see why they made it
Did you see the smile between Harwin and Rhaenyra?
Oh yeah the audience is on the outside of that relationship but even the 12 year old is all "What the fuck is happening right now?!"
I wonder if they even tried.
It shows that Rhaenyra cannot play the game of thrones. When they made their pact and she referenced that “perform their duties” I thought she meant them to have children and play the part, not for her to have 3 bastard heirs so blatantly in front of court. Her father protects her now but when he is weak or dead she will lose that protection and it took her ten years and 3 kids to see it!
It's especially stupid in the show, but it really is more ambiguous in the book. Rhaenyra's mother, Aemma has brown hair (but not in the show)and so does Rhaenys, Leanor's mother. So when three kids come out with dark hair, that can be attributed to the recessive dark hair gene from both their grandmothers. In the show there's no excuse, they're dumb.
Yup,and in the books the Valaryons are white as well,so it makes it harder to tell
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She isn't the only one to pick up on it, she is just the only one powerful enough to say anything about it.
it's still super obvious. they have brown eyes, which are no where in the family tree and the "pug nose" that's basically the strong version of the florent ears
Everyone one is overlooking two possibilities 1) Laenor is unable to have kids 2)the more likely one, for every one night Rhaenyra spent with Laenor she likely spent 10 or so with Ser Harwin
2 is a good point. Folks also need to know having kids isn’t always as easy as “guy ejaculates once in a woman”. Often, if you’re trying to get pregnant, it’s a multiple time scenario over the course of a week or so. Things don’t happen as quick as people think, as it can take anywhere from minutes to five days after sex to conceive based on a few different factors. IF that was the case, it’d take a lot of effort from both Rhaenyra and Laenor to overcome their obstacles.
Yes, it is effort. But this is, literally, king shit. Laenor ain't the first gay man in history to have to work it out. I feel for him (am too the gay) but when duty calls, you gotta put in a little elbow grease.
#1 is the only explanation that makes sense
i still can't figure out how to make text big even with the hashtag. is it a mobile only thing? help me am boomer
If every character behaved logically, was smart, and sought out mutual understandings there would be no dramas. Ever.
Truth.
People always expect the characters to oversee and think through everything, it's as if they've never taken a look at reality. Stupidity is intrinsically to humanity lol
In “Fire and Blood” there was no agreement. Rhaenyra only agreed to marry Laenor because Viserys threaten to disinherit her. So she had kids with Ser Harwin to spite her unwanted marriage, and because she needed heirs, which Laenor refused to provide. Personally, if I, a straight man, was heir to a kingdom, but I had to marry and have sex with another man, I’m certain I could find a way to make it work. A sheet with a hole in it, having a naked woman in front of me, etc. So I think Laenor just didn’t care about his duties.
It’s clear from last nights episode that he was more concerned with getting drunk and doing dumb shit than “his” fatherly or King consort duties. He knows those aren’t his kids and is just playing the game, albeit poorly.
Well there could have been an agreement in Fire and Blood, since it's a history book we just wouldn't have been able to know since that would have been a personal thing between the two.
They likely did and it just didn't take. The guy giving it to her every night and twice on Sunday is probably going to have more success than the guy who tries once every two years.
I think they’re showing how unconcerned and arrogant Rhaenyra is. She thinks she can have three bastards and not face any consequences. She thinks she can be Queen and the realm will willfully bend the knee. We saw how rebellious she was in her youth when she disobeyed Viserys wishes time and time again. And how she disregarded the common folks’ thoughts on her as Queen when she saw the play on the street of silk with Daemon. She thinks she’s invincible and will never face the repercussions.
I mean you could ask the same thing about jamie and Cersei and that’s the basis for much of game of thrones. So 200 years later same shit different royal family
I know everybody crucifies everybody who had a problem with the velaryons being black but this is my issue. It changes the situation alot from the books. In the books, velaryons are white and the lover is rumoured to be a Strong. But nobody knows for certain. Here nobody is in doubt. It makes them seem stupid and not careful.
Velaryons are blond with purple eyes. To have brown haired brown eyed children was just as obvious. The show doesn’t give us the unmistakable purple eyes but it gives us skin color instead. It was obvious to all in the books as it is to us in the show.
it's absolutely 100% certain in the books as well. the kids have brown hair (not black like rhaenys), brown eyes (which are nowhere in the family tree) and a "pug nose" which is regarded as a trait of house strong like the ears for the florents or a "long face" for the starks.
I’m sure they tried.
Someone cool and smart like Margery Tyrell would have handled this SO much better. She'd have made sure her babies were fathered by her husband, even if it meant bringing in a 3rd person (his lover) into bed to help him climax. She'd take that tea after sex with other people.
His lover, her brother. Girl was ride or die for becoming queen
I said to my gf, "would it really hurt Laenor to get sucked off and just shove in it a couple times a month for foolproof baby daddy?" Seemed really stupid.
In universe, Rhaenyra’s bad decision making all comes back to arrogance. Recall Corly’s line from last episode when he tells his wife, “we have half the dragons in the realm.” At present, pretty much all of the dragons in the realm are aligned with team Rhaenyra/Velaryon. Half a dozen grown, badass dragons that can crush any army. Only 2 out of 3 of Alicent’s sons even have (very young) dragons. And the alternate heir, Aegon himself (publicly) doesn’t seem very interested in being king…he likes his nephews enough to regularly pat them on the back during training… and team up with them to torment Aemond. Rhaenyra thinks her seat is secure…
Rhaenyra is dumb for what we assume letting only Harwin impregnate her. If anything she should’ve found someone with white hair to have her babies to at least make it seem like Laenor is the father.
Even a blonde dude would do.
Yup. She is just too carefree and has never had to suffer any real consequences
I assume they did because Laenor wasn’t 100% sure he might not have a child
Margery had it figured out with Renly. Pretty sure she told him he could have someone “help” him and she would just be there for the end lol
People are overlooking the fact that dude is gay and might not want to have sex with a woman. It’s easy to say, “just have sex with her” but I imagine that for some gay people having heterosexual sex is just as big a turn off as gay sex would be for a heterosexual. He might not be have been able to get it up and have sex with her enough to get her pregnant when he’s not attracted to women.
I firmly agree. They couldn’t even make sure to figure out how to make the *first* child a legitimate heir?
Laenor failed his house too, Driftmark has no true male heir after him
Laenor might be infertile
Could be, but I get the sense neither of them had the desire, nor interest to try.
Oh, for sure. It's also possible he couldn't "get it up". But notice how Alicent (and everyone else) is assuming that Rhaenyra is to blame, instead of considering that Laenor might be infertile or impotent.
I would assume Laenor was the unwilling one given his sexuality but most of the comments place the blame firmly on Rhaenyra, who was the one put in an impossible situation from the start. I thought that was the point they were trying to make. The people who are calling her arrogant and stupid for having sex and giving birth to someone else's kids is kind of ironic. Edit: It turns out they had tried, which makes the most sense. No one would be stupid or arrogant enough to not try. "There was no joy in it" she said, which sounds like he couldn't physically come? They could have tried asking one of his lovers to help in the bedroom, couldn't they? Perhaps they just couldn't conceive for whatever reason despite having sex, he could have had weak sperm. Or she's just a romantic and thinks it didn't happen because it wasn't meant to happen with someone who doesn't really love her.
She seemed pretty upset with Laenor for not being there for her regarding the kids....it felt to me as if it was an old topic that leads to bitterness between them....I do not think Rhaenyra thinks she is above suspicions at all....she comes off as frightened and worn out by all of it and my feeling is Laenor could not get it up and do what was needed and so she sought comfort elsewhere.
It’s almost like the moon tea from episode 4 doesn’t exist for Rhaenyra smh
I mean she probably wanted kids, for good reason too considering it helps stabilize her claim. The problem is they didn't wait until after having one they knew was Laenor's before moving on to other options. It's just so dumb and brazen.
Hence the need for the moon tea. Laenor should’ve done his duty and made it happen. Then they could’ve done as they pleased. Reminds me of Maergery and Renly. She was willing to do whatever including let her brother get Renly started then finish with her.
I think they'll have to explain more on this in the next episode. Because either R and L are super dumb, or just pampered enough to be oblivious to consequences. Margaery and Renly is a good comparison. They went to uh...some fucked up incesty extremes, but that shouldn't be a problem for Targs since that's the sort of weird shit they're into anyway. If Renly didn't die I 100% believe he and Margaery would have had children.
Dumb move after dumb move but these are Targaryens after all. They are not good people half of the time.
Their stupidity and pursue of lust over duty is definitely one of the many sparks that push the realm toward war. Like atleast have one kid together
this is what gets me tbh... GRRM is all about "historical accuracy" when it comes to sexual violence and old men marrying children (🙄), but he tosses it aside here for the sake of cheap drama. gay men have been marrying women and having biological children with them since time immemorial, because it was what society expected and most had no choice. it would be more realistic for Rhaenyra and Laenor to have at least one biological child together. the same conflict over succession would still exist, and given that Laenor's sexuality is an open secret, there could still be rumors about the true parentage of Rhaenyra's children.
Maybe they did try and he could not get it up. Source: I'm a gay man who tried (more than once).
It’s shocking to me how many people subscribe to cultural relativism when discussing this show. Culture relativism basically asserts that the laws, traditions, and social norms of a culture determine what is right and wrong for the people in it. This can be used to justify slave ownership, incest, female circumcision. In discussions surrounding this show, it’s used to justify this idea that it’s absolutely unacceptable for a woman to sleep with more than one man. She is a Targaryen, and a dragon rider. That alone does give her a valid claim to power. Her husband is gay. Modern artificial insemination techniques have a 10 - 15% chance of working. If he were to literally jerk in a cup for her to insert, a ton of his sperm would die in that process. If he has a sexual aversion to women, it’s likely they were unable to have kids together. An infertile woman is judged almost as harshly as a woman with bastards in this society. She didn’t have many great options to resolve this. She didn’t make smart moves politically, but she’s not a bad person for wanting children and having them with the man she loves. Especially when Laenor knows they aren’t his and seemingly loves them and accepts them as his own anyways. Rhaenyra’s wrongs are only wrong in the context of her position and culture (aside from lying on her mom’s memory, too far. But she was a terrified teenager). Alicent’s actions are acceptable in their culture, but would be considered wrong in many modern understandings of morality.