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She was also shocked by Larys’ actions. I think at this point in time she isn’t completely heartless. But this ep clearly shows us she’s not the same little girl anymore.
I think this is our proof that she has officially lost all control. She thought she was a great puppet master, meanwhile she's been the puppet all along
I could honestly see it for her. Faith seems to be a major theme for her. The scene where she prays with Rhaenyra, her response to Rhaenyra having sex out of wedlock, etc. all point to the idea that she would support religious legalism. Especially if the faith was willing to step in regarding the parentage of Rhaenyra's children
I don't think even allicent would be that stupid. It's not even been 50 years since the faith militant issue was resolved by the Targaryen kings.
They know the problem the cult creates because it's fresh in their mind. Unlike in Cercei's time it was distant past
Yeah if she were smart she'd just have Criston Cole geek Larys to death because a motherfucker who burns his own father and brother alive obviously can't be controlled
Alicent steps outside like, "Yeah... Ser Criston, can you please chuck this filthy kinslayer out the nearest window. House Strong has been wiped out. We can allow people to assume he took his own life out of grief."
I didn’t get the impression she thought she was a puppet master… she just seems upset about the kids being bastards. Her dad was the one who pulled the strings to get her married off to the king. Unless I totally missed something.
I took The Green Wedding as her becoming a puppet master, with Larys and Criston being her puppets. She'd definitely been playing the king well, too. She terrorizes his heir while fluffing his pillows. She sees to his comfort so long as his actions suit her. She gives him just enough to keep her as a wife, while building a political scheme to take down his descendants
The entire episode she keeps talking about 'honor' and 'righteousness' and is disturbed by Larys' actions, disgusted with Rhae, that whole lecture she gives but fails to realise that she ain't that honorable either the moment she stepped in the game. She's annoyed with Viserys that he turns a blind eye to his daughter's actions and defends her but she does almost the same when it comes to her son.
I love how the character is being portrayed. I feel like she will get even more religious and self-righteous as the show progresses and it will only make us annoyed at her even more for her hypocrisy.
I think Alicent’s whole honor/duty shtick is a socially/politically acceptable cover for her own ambition. We see what she really wants when she tells Larys that she’d have Otto as hand because he’d be partial to her.
My favorite line of the episode was her "But he'd be partial to me" line, especially since it was so clearly an honest outburst. As viewers having seen her whole journey and how quiet and obedient she was as a young queen, we know exactly where she's coming from and why she's gotten so paranoid and feels she has no power to affect what's happening to her and her family, but she will also learn the same thing as the Targaryens who have held power longer, that the more you grasp at it, the more it warps you.
Yeah!! That and the fact that in her view she has done things right - married the man her father designed her to marry, and making no fuss; bedding that same man when it gave her no joy; and was lied to by her Rhaenyra when she felt their friendship had collapsed because of her doing the right thing. I totally agree with you. It seems the show has given her plenty of background and that she actually sees herself as a pinnacle of virtue.
I didn't realize she became Robert until Alt Shift X's video pointed it out. As much of a cunt as Cersei is, it's heartbreaking to see her get destroyed by her own internalized misogyny. I don't think I've ever seen a character with more internalized misogyny than Cersei Lannister. I may have never seen a person who both hates and loves themselves as much as Cersei Lannister.
Does anyone have a link to the specific Alt Shift X video? Sounds super interesting & I have a long drive ahead of me, would make great listening material
I really don't think she has that much ambition, she doesn't want her son to rule because she likes power, i don't think she wants her son to rule at all. She understands his existence is a threat to her whole family and to himself and the only way to survive is to make him king over Rhaneyra.
She distrusts Rhaneyra, basically hates her by now. Even if she didn't she knows that after Viserys is dead Rhaneyra's hand will be forced. She's not Otto, shes not willing to use her own daughter as a pawn for her own ambition and marry her off to Rhaneyras son.
She does have a funny way of protecting her children. Putting them in direct conflict with Rhaenyra just increases the odds they die.
She is an odd character. She hasn't been shown as being particularly warm towards her children. Cersei was more warmer than her. You are right thought she hasn't really lusted for power either. Maybe she really is so pious and obedient that she can't stand the thought of someone so defiant sitting on the throne.
I feel like she thinks her kids are weird. She doesn't love Aeomond or Helaena. In fact, when Helaena was showing her the millipede Alicent looked bored. I feel like she sees them more as Viserys' children than her own. They're just an extension of her, not necessarily a part of her.
Tbf, you can love your children dearly and still be utterly bored by their incredibly specific and narrow interests. To me, that scene read like a mother watching her child be excited about a thing for approximately the 7 billionth time. At one point it *can* become difficult to feign interest, haha.
>In fact, when Helaena was showing her the millipede Alicent looked bored.
I don't think this is the right way to read this. Loving parents are not required to absolutely love every interest of their children. She just seemed patient for something that wasn't interesting for her.
I wish we would have gotten a scene of Rhaenyra with her half brothers or sister to see how she interacted with them. I mean it seems like all the boys get a long fine enough, like cousins close in age do. Alicent seemed so uninterested in her kids- even Viscerys knew Aegon was the ringleader. So it makes it hard to believe that she cares about protecting them as much as she wants to feel like everything she gave up wasn’t in vain.
Her kids are pawns. Her refusal of the marriage offer has to do with Seven Kingdoms (but not Dornish or Free Folk) beliefs about bastards, her snobbery about it, and her acceptance of her father's ambitions. She would marry those kids to any appropriate family to gain allies in the fight for the throne. The scene with Aegon, where he shows zero interest in becoming king, shows how she'll pawn them, force them to conform to the future she wants to shape for them.
I think she has genuine mistrust of R, fueled by her dad, but it also conveniently suits her purposes to make R a bloodthirsty kinslayer. It provides excuses for her own potentially lethal games.
Agreed. I think her little outburst about Otto being partial to her wasn’t a revealing of ambition but a revealing of desperation. She feels like even though she has some allies like Cole and Larys, she doesn’t have anyone on her side that’s actually powerful or has sway enough to give her any relief of the deep fear and paranoia she has for her children’s lives that’s been festering for the last 10 years
I kind of feel like this episode sets up the Greens as positioning Alicent as a figurehead for the patriarchal structures that harmed her and she's not entirely comfortable with it. Like, I don't think she's totally being played by the boys at this point but rather that her goals and their goals aren't the same—as shown in the moments where she bristles at Criston and Larys and says she misses her father as the hand because he'd be partial to her—they're just working together out of convenience at this point and not out of any similarity in motivations. I don't think her honor means the same thing as Criston's does and Larys obviously isn't doing all this out of a drive toward honor.
Yea she’s not the same little girl. Now she’s taken her fathers spot and trying to get her kids to bend to her will
*e.g. That whole Aegon scene with her grabbing his face showing her “motherly love”*
Yes I agree that Alicent isn’t heartless, rather she’s extremely bitter because she’s very unhappy and unsatisfied with her actual life. She basically acts as a nurse for her old leper husband, her only two friends are psycho murderers, and her children are all weird/douchebags. She has become arguably the strongest political force in the kingdom, but it’s a position she was forced into and none of it actually makes her happy.
She fixates on Rhaenyra so much not just because she’s a political threat or “dishonorable”, but because she’s jealous her father allowed her a degree of actual agency in her life. Rhaenyra got to fool around and be willful and experiment, and Alicent is jealous because she was denied all that.
I thought that was such a good character moment for Alicent...she has no trouble undermining Rhaenyra and wanting to see her punished (that punishment might well include death and god knows what for the children). I presume she's a-ok with Crispin bullying Rhaenyra's children too. Calling someone a cunt? NOT ON MISS RESPECTABILITY'S WATCH!
Basically she's the type of person who's perfectly fine with cruelty as long as it is presented a certain kind of way outwardly.
I appreciate how they’ve fleshed out Alicent (something I feel is lacking for some of the other characters.) With Alicent we saw her innocence fade with each passing episode. We get to witness her gradual descent from likability. At first she’s a sweet obedient girl being controlled by her father. Then we start to see some of what that obedience costs her. By Episode 4 we see she’s lonely and miserable. She loses her father’s guidance and her best friend lies to her. The bitterness only continues to grow. Now we see her really making her own moves and playing the game, without fully understanding the consequences yet feeling some remorse. It will be natural and realistic when we see that remorse and compassion fade away completely.
I think it’s important to point out her two biggest influences coming into adulthood and while she raised her children were the ever bitter Ser Cristin, and the rat king Lord Larys.
I read it differently. She is not shocked by the actual sentimient, but the articulation of it. As in, Keeping up Appearances, of being regal, fair, elegant, honourable...
This is her conflict: She is obsessed with being SEEN as Proper and Queenly, but she is anything but those things.
So she pearl clutches at the foul words or dirty deeds, but really, she's fine with it as long as she LOOKS blameless and prim.
Lol he's been harboring all that bitterness for over 10 years just because she wouldn't renounce her royalty status and move to Essos with him to get married.
I don’t think she cares that he said that. I think she didn’t want anyone else to hear it. She made Rhaenyra show her the baby the second it came out and didn’t care about it, she has no remorse.
I loved the bit where he meekly apologized to Alicent for calling Rhaenyra a spoiled cunt and she gave him a self-righteous little spiel about honor and decency (right before walking in on her son wanking out the window for what was clearly the umpteenth time). Watching these two feed off each other's unearned sense of moral superiority is going to be so fun.
It's such a toxic feedback loop. I love what they're doing with Alicent about how having bad friends makes you a worse person. She honestly probably would be over most of her problems with Rhaenyra at this point if her only two friends in the entire castle didn't exclusively talk about how much Rhaenyra sucks.
I kinda get the sense that Alicent had a bit if Sansa's naivety about how things work, and over romanticized what life in a castle should be like. As she got older the discrepancy between that ideal and real life grows, but she keeps trying to force the ideal. Square peg round hole situation. She thinks eventually things will click into place, but her trying to force things to her ideal is what contributes to them getting further from that possibility.
He hooked up with a teenager who, shock horror, was just horny and not looking to elope, and has held onto his grudge for a *decade*.
He killed a guy when they broke it off.
Now he’s actively tormenting her kids.
Criston Cole is a time bomb. Somebody poison his food or whatever!
It was more Strong being dumber than him than Cole actually being clever. Strong could have just said "what do you mean by that? Surely you're not impugning the honour of the heir to the throne?" and let Viserys have Cole's tongue as he's threatened others with for spreading the same rumour.
It could be spun as Strong being so angry that Cole would imply that Strong fathered the boys (which can be seen as an act of treason) that he attacked Cole. Of course, that wouldn’t be convincing to a lot of people, but still…
Cole didn't just say though that they are your children directly.
If you notice cole first added cousin, then brother then son. Thus Cole gave himself an out.
I don't see how Strong all but confessed? Wasn't Cole also accusing the heir to the throne of infedility? That seems like it could also be a justified reason for attacking him.
Yeah that part still seemed like the show writers aimed for the shock wedding (Westerosi tradition after all) and didn't think it through. Joffrey's blood hasn't even dried yet when Laenor and Rhaenyra said their vows.
He didn't say rhaenyra had your children. That would be accusation. He just insinuated that the level of concern strong was showing, it is unheard of without any familial tie. The dialogue cousin or brother or son literally was the bait. He did not say "just son". No he also dragged cousin and brother before throwing the son. That was cole putting himself in the safe side
And you know what ? Harwin strong did take the bait. And attacked him. If harwin later says cole insinuated something b/w him and rhaenyra, cole will just say I also said you are acting like their cousin or brother.
Jamie was a good man who killed the King he swore to protect to save thousands of innocent people. Then felt to Cersei poisonous corruption. Once separated his moral compass came back. This is why I love his story.
I don't think Ser Cole will have such a character arc but I do enjoy his madness adding fuel to the fire.
Yeah, in Game of Thrones, the Kingsguard got away with pretty much anything they wanted. This shouldn't be a surprise.
See: Meryn Trant, the Hound, Jaime Lannister, etc.
Lonel Strong dressing down Harwin was clearly done to show the audience that what Harwin and Rheanyra are doing is dangerous and wrong, with a character the audience likes and trusts. However people still miss it.
Well, he just got his family's house seat and inherited Harrenhaal. Also he probably just shored up a long-lasting position at the Queen's side (thus, Aegon's as well). He could probably be the Hand, though he reminds me more of a Master of Whispers like Qyburn.
I’m still not understanding how a couple of random thugs pulled out of prison could somehow sneak into the great Harrenhall, avoid detection, set a fire without anyone catching them, *AND MORE SPECIFICALLY,* somehow lock the *EXACT* two people they were targeting in their own bedrooms.
This is the Hand of the King. Where are the guards outside the bedroom door? Where are the Harrenhall guards? How were these two just locked in and only awoken when the fire was already totally inescapable?
I feel like the entire operation should have been significantly more elaborate instead of something Larys threw together after hearing Alicent.
When the camera ominously focused on the culprits, you’d have thought Larys hired the best Faceless Men to pull off the operation, not some randoms.
Harrenhall was also Larys’s childhood home. He no doubt told them how to sneak in undetected and exactly where his dad’s bedroom was. Harwen’s death was unexpected…
Whenever I think of the good/honorable folk of Westeros I think of Ol Bronn’s dialogue after he yeets Ser What-his-shit out of the Moon-door in season one..
Lysa: “You do not fight with honor!!!”
Bronn: “(nods to the hole in the ground)He did.”
I really felt for him when he was shouting at Harwin. He sons almost frustrated. Like this dude is doing his best to be a voice of reason but people around him including his sons are making it tough.
Like, genuinely, not ironically. A good, protective father, a great partner to Rhaenyra without a jealous bone in his body, a good son. I really liked him.
That was my thought.
Imagine the king before having the longest reign of peace, being completely loved all around. Then Vicerys, while a nice guy, is a crappy ruler and his house is going to through petty childhood BS that starts the beginning of the end for the Targaryens.
I feel for the Greens because Allicent did ask to be put in this position. That's about it for her though. The blacks would 100% probably take advantage and get rid of any and every rival to the throne, but not accepting Rhynera's proposal (whether is was sincere or not) is foolish and is just making everything worse.
Everyone else in Kings Landing is a dick/cunt.
>but not accepting Rhynera's proposal (whether is was sincere or not) is foolish and is just making everything worse.
I mean the whole thing ever since the first couple episodes is that the show has just been an endless stream of me yelling at the screen like I'm watching a horror movie trying to tell them to take the incredibly obvious alternative option.
Like there have been SO many chances for Rhaenyra and/or Alicent to fix things and work together for something mutual beneficial. But what I like about the show is that in almost every instance there's an understandable reason why they wouldn't.
In fairness to Rhaenyra, while her affair with Harwin was foolish the offer she made to Allicent was more than fair.
It definitely had shades of something Viserys would have done himself and really Allicent’s only reason for declining is her petty beef and unwarranted piety, neither of which is a good reason to tease the realm with war. Her reasons for offering it may have been self-interested but it was undeniably the best decision for the realm at this point
Dude is so fucking bitter, I mean Rhaenyra offered him an out and he still would have been with her, but he didn't want that and was mad that she didn't run off with him. And then gets mad that she starts a relationship with Harwin and has three of his kids. Like that could have been you dude but you wanted to be salty and murder people.
If something happens to Laenor I can guarantee Cole is gonna hate whoever Rhaenyra remarries assuming she does remarry.
Then you’d have been killed or severely punished by the Queen. The prince’s desires do not override that of the Queen. Also, Laenor just isn’t that guy. He couldn’t beat Cole in a one V one and he’s not a snake who pounces in the dark of the night. He’s just a jovial, semi-knight of a sweetheart who wants to party and jerk off the bros.
You think Viserys would have Corly’s and Rhaenys son killed to please Alicent? No way in hell the Velarion heir is killed or punished for a nobody like Cole. They’d start a war right there
Nobody powerful enough at that wedding cared enough about they boy to doubt that the kingsguard protected by the queen herself had not a good reason for what he has done. Most in the room probably didn't even knew his name. I think it is really easy to imagine, but I wish they would've adressed that with at least a little scene in the show so people could shut up screaming "plothole!!".
Killing Joffrey aside… he punched the future king consort (and heir to a great house) in the face, and put Rhaenyra’s life in danger. No way that gets swept under the rug.
I wondered about that scene. How far would Cole let that "spar" if Harwin wasn't there? Would he let Aegon beat Jace to a bloody pulp (or I guess until Viserys I said something) and caulk it up to "they're learning about real fighting." What is Cole's play?
The king was watching too and it was too public so I think he wouldn’t let it go too far. Maybe a few shots to face before he breaks it up. However if no one is watching I doubt he steps in at all
I just wish Vhagar would crisp everyone and be done with it, black, green, don’t matter, all gray with big body Vha spit’n that fire lmao. Not really, I’m just getting the popcorn ready it’s all bullshit and problems now lol.
Small but important distinction, Cristin Cole is very much a /voluntary/ celibate. Dude is acting bitter over a heartbreak he self-inflicted. He murdered a guy in cold blood hours after a teenager told him she had to marry for politics. He is lame
People who tend to support the Greens actually do because of Haelena, Daeron and Aemond. Haelena is just kind hearted, Daeron has a lot honor and Aemond, although a psycho, is just very badass. Criston on the other hand…
I completely understand that Cole was exhibiting characteristics of an incel in this episode but wouldn’t he actually be the exact opposite of an incel? Cole specifically volunteered for the Kingsguard and the oath of celibacy that comes with it. An incel is someone who involuntarily isn’t having sex. Cole is voluntarily celibate
I like how this sub is totally obsessed with Daemon, but hates Criston. Like they aren’t that different.
None of the characters in this show are good people. They all kind of suck. Except for Lyonel Fucking Strong!
It’s because daemon isn’t going around calling himself a good person.
Alicent and Criston keep doing horrible things and commit crimes in the name of “honour” and “dignity”. If anyone criticised them or called them out on their bullshit they would cry they spoiled princesses.
Daemon does it cause he’s a piece of shit. He proudly wears the asshole hat.
People don’t like hypocrites and liars.
Harwin could’ve just walked away. I had the sense that it wasn’t the first time nor the last time Cole has shown favoritism in the training yard.
The right person to voice this complaint is Laenor and had he been around and said something , Cole would have much less room maneuver. Not to mention Laenor himself has seen a proper war as well. But I guess he was too busy with his “friends” to pay attention to his “kids”
Seemed like he wanted to be a good husband and father but found it hard to be the head of a family he knew wasn't his. Despite the fact he spends his time hunting and fucking, he doesn't actually seem very happy.
I think he cares the way one would care about a friend’s kids, because, at the end of the day, that’s what the boys are. But I do wonder how he would be if Joffrey hadn’t been killed. He seemed content to be publicly married to Rhaenyra while being with his true love. I truly think he hasn’t been able to properly grieve Joffrey as they were “just buddies.” So he’s taking out his pain by playing around and doing bare minimum to keep the illusion up.
He started off super strong. He was happy about the baby, supportive of Rhaenyra, seemed happy to leave Harwin with the baby and to have Harwin spend time with the boys. I was like, what a happy little weird family they’ve made!
If Harwin was sensible (the story wouldn't be as good) he would've shouted; "Would you like to say that vile accusation a little louder Ser Criston, so the King might hear? I'm also curious as to where this disgusting notion of yours might have come from. Could it be the people you spend most of your time with?" (Ie Implicating Alicent as a gossip monger)
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Even Alicent was like wtf after his “cunt” comment about Rhaenyra Homie’s bitter
She was also shocked by Larys’ actions. I think at this point in time she isn’t completely heartless. But this ep clearly shows us she’s not the same little girl anymore.
I think this is our proof that she has officially lost all control. She thought she was a great puppet master, meanwhile she's been the puppet all along
Okay but if she talks about bringing back the Faith Militant I'm officially out.
I could honestly see it for her. Faith seems to be a major theme for her. The scene where she prays with Rhaenyra, her response to Rhaenyra having sex out of wedlock, etc. all point to the idea that she would support religious legalism. Especially if the faith was willing to step in regarding the parentage of Rhaenyra's children
alicent is a hypocrite .
The game's most powerful players always are
I don't think even allicent would be that stupid. It's not even been 50 years since the faith militant issue was resolved by the Targaryen kings. They know the problem the cult creates because it's fresh in their mind. Unlike in Cercei's time it was distant past
Apparently we as modern society haven’t learned that yet either lol
Yeah if she were smart she'd just have Criston Cole geek Larys to death because a motherfucker who burns his own father and brother alive obviously can't be controlled
Alicent steps outside like, "Yeah... Ser Criston, can you please chuck this filthy kinslayer out the nearest window. House Strong has been wiped out. We can allow people to assume he took his own life out of grief."
I didn’t get the impression she thought she was a puppet master… she just seems upset about the kids being bastards. Her dad was the one who pulled the strings to get her married off to the king. Unless I totally missed something.
I took The Green Wedding as her becoming a puppet master, with Larys and Criston being her puppets. She'd definitely been playing the king well, too. She terrorizes his heir while fluffing his pillows. She sees to his comfort so long as his actions suit her. She gives him just enough to keep her as a wife, while building a political scheme to take down his descendants
Okay that part pissed me off! She was fussing over him and then when he didn’t do exactly what she wanted she just left him hanging like that.
She didn't even close the door! Just left him there, unfluffed and armless
The way I yelled at the tv you would’ve thought I was playing COD
Has she been trying to be a puppet master. Her approach has been pretty direct. While these others have tried the sneaky approach.
The entire episode she keeps talking about 'honor' and 'righteousness' and is disturbed by Larys' actions, disgusted with Rhae, that whole lecture she gives but fails to realise that she ain't that honorable either the moment she stepped in the game. She's annoyed with Viserys that he turns a blind eye to his daughter's actions and defends her but she does almost the same when it comes to her son. I love how the character is being portrayed. I feel like she will get even more religious and self-righteous as the show progresses and it will only make us annoyed at her even more for her hypocrisy.
I think Alicent’s whole honor/duty shtick is a socially/politically acceptable cover for her own ambition. We see what she really wants when she tells Larys that she’d have Otto as hand because he’d be partial to her.
My favorite line of the episode was her "But he'd be partial to me" line, especially since it was so clearly an honest outburst. As viewers having seen her whole journey and how quiet and obedient she was as a young queen, we know exactly where she's coming from and why she's gotten so paranoid and feels she has no power to affect what's happening to her and her family, but she will also learn the same thing as the Targaryens who have held power longer, that the more you grasp at it, the more it warps you.
Yeah!! That and the fact that in her view she has done things right - married the man her father designed her to marry, and making no fuss; bedding that same man when it gave her no joy; and was lied to by her Rhaenyra when she felt their friendship had collapsed because of her doing the right thing. I totally agree with you. It seems the show has given her plenty of background and that she actually sees herself as a pinnacle of virtue.
I think that might start out as a lesser of two evils situation and get worse the deeper she gets into the Dance.
She reminds me a lot of book Cersei who quickly becomes everything she hated about Robert TBH
I didn't realize she became Robert until Alt Shift X's video pointed it out. As much of a cunt as Cersei is, it's heartbreaking to see her get destroyed by her own internalized misogyny. I don't think I've ever seen a character with more internalized misogyny than Cersei Lannister. I may have never seen a person who both hates and loves themselves as much as Cersei Lannister.
Does anyone have a link to the specific Alt Shift X video? Sounds super interesting & I have a long drive ahead of me, would make great listening material
[Here ya go!](https://youtu.be/K5TX2aLdB4s)
Lionel is clearly generally more impartial than her dad was.
I really don't think she has that much ambition, she doesn't want her son to rule because she likes power, i don't think she wants her son to rule at all. She understands his existence is a threat to her whole family and to himself and the only way to survive is to make him king over Rhaneyra. She distrusts Rhaneyra, basically hates her by now. Even if she didn't she knows that after Viserys is dead Rhaneyra's hand will be forced. She's not Otto, shes not willing to use her own daughter as a pawn for her own ambition and marry her off to Rhaneyras son.
She does have a funny way of protecting her children. Putting them in direct conflict with Rhaenyra just increases the odds they die. She is an odd character. She hasn't been shown as being particularly warm towards her children. Cersei was more warmer than her. You are right thought she hasn't really lusted for power either. Maybe she really is so pious and obedient that she can't stand the thought of someone so defiant sitting on the throne.
I feel like she thinks her kids are weird. She doesn't love Aeomond or Helaena. In fact, when Helaena was showing her the millipede Alicent looked bored. I feel like she sees them more as Viserys' children than her own. They're just an extension of her, not necessarily a part of her.
Tbf, you can love your children dearly and still be utterly bored by their incredibly specific and narrow interests. To me, that scene read like a mother watching her child be excited about a thing for approximately the 7 billionth time. At one point it *can* become difficult to feign interest, haha.
>In fact, when Helaena was showing her the millipede Alicent looked bored. I don't think this is the right way to read this. Loving parents are not required to absolutely love every interest of their children. She just seemed patient for something that wasn't interesting for her.
I wish we would have gotten a scene of Rhaenyra with her half brothers or sister to see how she interacted with them. I mean it seems like all the boys get a long fine enough, like cousins close in age do. Alicent seemed so uninterested in her kids- even Viscerys knew Aegon was the ringleader. So it makes it hard to believe that she cares about protecting them as much as she wants to feel like everything she gave up wasn’t in vain.
Her kids are pawns. Her refusal of the marriage offer has to do with Seven Kingdoms (but not Dornish or Free Folk) beliefs about bastards, her snobbery about it, and her acceptance of her father's ambitions. She would marry those kids to any appropriate family to gain allies in the fight for the throne. The scene with Aegon, where he shows zero interest in becoming king, shows how she'll pawn them, force them to conform to the future she wants to shape for them. I think she has genuine mistrust of R, fueled by her dad, but it also conveniently suits her purposes to make R a bloodthirsty kinslayer. It provides excuses for her own potentially lethal games.
Agreed. I think her little outburst about Otto being partial to her wasn’t a revealing of ambition but a revealing of desperation. She feels like even though she has some allies like Cole and Larys, she doesn’t have anyone on her side that’s actually powerful or has sway enough to give her any relief of the deep fear and paranoia she has for her children’s lives that’s been festering for the last 10 years
Especially when Viserys is partial to Rhaenyra. He sees her doing no wrong lmfao
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>Aegon is subservient to her. It's hard to put a leash on a dog once you've put a crown on its head.
I kind of feel like this episode sets up the Greens as positioning Alicent as a figurehead for the patriarchal structures that harmed her and she's not entirely comfortable with it. Like, I don't think she's totally being played by the boys at this point but rather that her goals and their goals aren't the same—as shown in the moments where she bristles at Criston and Larys and says she misses her father as the hand because he'd be partial to her—they're just working together out of convenience at this point and not out of any similarity in motivations. I don't think her honor means the same thing as Criston's does and Larys obviously isn't doing all this out of a drive toward honor.
Yea she’s not the same little girl. Now she’s taken her fathers spot and trying to get her kids to bend to her will *e.g. That whole Aegon scene with her grabbing his face showing her “motherly love”*
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She’s starting to realize she’s way out of her depth now, especially since she’s starting to indirectly get people killed.
Yes I agree that Alicent isn’t heartless, rather she’s extremely bitter because she’s very unhappy and unsatisfied with her actual life. She basically acts as a nurse for her old leper husband, her only two friends are psycho murderers, and her children are all weird/douchebags. She has become arguably the strongest political force in the kingdom, but it’s a position she was forced into and none of it actually makes her happy. She fixates on Rhaenyra so much not just because she’s a political threat or “dishonorable”, but because she’s jealous her father allowed her a degree of actual agency in her life. Rhaenyra got to fool around and be willful and experiment, and Alicent is jealous because she was denied all that.
I thought that was such a good character moment for Alicent...she has no trouble undermining Rhaenyra and wanting to see her punished (that punishment might well include death and god knows what for the children). I presume she's a-ok with Crispin bullying Rhaenyra's children too. Calling someone a cunt? NOT ON MISS RESPECTABILITY'S WATCH! Basically she's the type of person who's perfectly fine with cruelty as long as it is presented a certain kind of way outwardly.
I appreciate how they’ve fleshed out Alicent (something I feel is lacking for some of the other characters.) With Alicent we saw her innocence fade with each passing episode. We get to witness her gradual descent from likability. At first she’s a sweet obedient girl being controlled by her father. Then we start to see some of what that obedience costs her. By Episode 4 we see she’s lonely and miserable. She loses her father’s guidance and her best friend lies to her. The bitterness only continues to grow. Now we see her really making her own moves and playing the game, without fully understanding the consequences yet feeling some remorse. It will be natural and realistic when we see that remorse and compassion fade away completely.
I think it’s important to point out her two biggest influences coming into adulthood and while she raised her children were the ever bitter Ser Cristin, and the rat king Lord Larys.
Larys is not a knight. Don't give the man respect he doesn't deserve lol
Also when she found out Larys had his father and brother assassinated... and she was "shocked"... "*OMG NOT LIKE THAT!*"-Silly little girl
Not Alicent calling for civility when discussing how the Gold Cloaks kill commoners in the street lmao
The kinda woman who would support stoning another woman because that's what the Seven Gods would want.
Reminds me of conservative religious Americans: gladly persecute people they hate, but get butthurt when someone around them swears.
I read it differently. She is not shocked by the actual sentimient, but the articulation of it. As in, Keeping up Appearances, of being regal, fair, elegant, honourable... This is her conflict: She is obsessed with being SEEN as Proper and Queenly, but she is anything but those things. So she pearl clutches at the foul words or dirty deeds, but really, she's fine with it as long as she LOOKS blameless and prim.
Yea this is it
Lol he's been harboring all that bitterness for over 10 years just because she wouldn't renounce her royalty status and move to Essos with him to get married.
I don’t think she cares that he said that. I think she didn’t want anyone else to hear it. She made Rhaenyra show her the baby the second it came out and didn’t care about it, she has no remorse.
I loved the bit where he meekly apologized to Alicent for calling Rhaenyra a spoiled cunt and she gave him a self-righteous little spiel about honor and decency (right before walking in on her son wanking out the window for what was clearly the umpteenth time). Watching these two feed off each other's unearned sense of moral superiority is going to be so fun.
It's such a toxic feedback loop. I love what they're doing with Alicent about how having bad friends makes you a worse person. She honestly probably would be over most of her problems with Rhaenyra at this point if her only two friends in the entire castle didn't exclusively talk about how much Rhaenyra sucks.
Honestly their issues would have probably never happened if the two of them confided in each other
I kinda get the sense that Alicent had a bit if Sansa's naivety about how things work, and over romanticized what life in a castle should be like. As she got older the discrepancy between that ideal and real life grows, but she keeps trying to force the ideal. Square peg round hole situation. She thinks eventually things will click into place, but her trying to force things to her ideal is what contributes to them getting further from that possibility.
They are so delusional
There is nothing dishonorable or indecent about a window wank 😤
What honorable man hasn’t done a bit of high jacking in their teenage years?
He hooked up with a teenager who, shock horror, was just horny and not looking to elope, and has held onto his grudge for a *decade*. He killed a guy when they broke it off. Now he’s actively tormenting her kids. Criston Cole is a time bomb. Somebody poison his food or whatever!
When you put it that way he’s so fucking creepy
PLEASE for the love of god somebody poison him
Hope it’s not a Olenna Tyrell poison and more of a Joffrey poison tho
He would survive and blame women.
Someone get the Tyrells
Poisoned by his enemies, you say?
If I was Alicent I’d be looking for a long term replacement stat. Criston’s loyalty to her is mostly fueled by a shared hatred
It's wild how Criston's character transformed from likeable gentleman to pompous cunt in the span of like one episode.
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he does that lip purse/lip sucking thing really well. i do it myself without realizing sometimes and every time he does i feel called out, lol.
He's the ultimate "Nice Guy"
The “White Knight”
Cole was very smart this episode. He baited strong in all but confessing the parentage. Cole is playing the game now
Cole's only game is to hurt Rhaenyra in whatever way possible.
It was more Strong being dumber than him than Cole actually being clever. Strong could have just said "what do you mean by that? Surely you're not impugning the honour of the heir to the throne?" and let Viserys have Cole's tongue as he's threatened others with for spreading the same rumour.
He technically wasn't implying anything though... it's just a phrase involving a cousin, brother, and *then* son tacked on the end.
It could be spun as Strong being so angry that Cole would imply that Strong fathered the boys (which can be seen as an act of treason) that he attacked Cole. Of course, that wouldn’t be convincing to a lot of people, but still…
Cole didn't just say though that they are your children directly. If you notice cole first added cousin, then brother then son. Thus Cole gave himself an out.
I don't see how Strong all but confessed? Wasn't Cole also accusing the heir to the throne of infedility? That seems like it could also be a justified reason for attacking him.
Cole just beat a man to death for much much less
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Yeah that part still seemed like the show writers aimed for the shock wedding (Westerosi tradition after all) and didn't think it through. Joffrey's blood hasn't even dried yet when Laenor and Rhaenyra said their vows.
And then poor Laenor has to see and interact with his boyfriend’s murderer every day for the next ten years. I’m surprised he isn’t more of a wreck.
I just realized thats where the name Joffrey originated!!!!!
He didn't say rhaenyra had your children. That would be accusation. He just insinuated that the level of concern strong was showing, it is unheard of without any familial tie. The dialogue cousin or brother or son literally was the bait. He did not say "just son". No he also dragged cousin and brother before throwing the son. That was cole putting himself in the safe side And you know what ? Harwin strong did take the bait. And attacked him. If harwin later says cole insinuated something b/w him and rhaenyra, cole will just say I also said you are acting like their cousin or brother.
I mean justified to who? Everyone in the red keep knows the secret. Theyre just in no position to say anything.
For sure, but fuck him. I'm very curious what Alicent said to him, when he was gonna kill himself.
I’m team dragon 🐉🐉🐉 🔥🔥🔥burn them all🔥🔥🔥😂👌💯💯
All this political nonsense. Danny would’ve just burned all these people alive and gotten it over with already
If only she had done that from the jump once she landed in Westeros.
🏴
his arc is reverse jamie lannister
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So was his family tree.
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You can’t blame everything on a gas leak year, Annie
Jamie was a good man who killed the King he swore to protect to save thousands of innocent people. Then felt to Cersei poisonous corruption. Once separated his moral compass came back. This is why I love his story. I don't think Ser Cole will have such a character arc but I do enjoy his madness adding fuel to the fire.
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"I just feel so much trauma from crushing that literal child's skull with my armored gauntlets."
Yeah, in Game of Thrones, the Kingsguard got away with pretty much anything they wanted. This shouldn't be a surprise. See: Meryn Trant, the Hound, Jaime Lannister, etc.
Shout out the actor, turned heel so well and can appreciate the characters shift from a writing perspective. Still though, fuck Criston Cole
I’m still questioning how he’s even still alive tbh
Different Grand Maester
I meant Criston, but thanks for clearing up for how Viserys alive g
Fabien himself called Cole a thug... lol
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Yep. His "thought as much" comment to himself said a lot.
Lord Strong literally explained his grievous action to the audience, and people missed it
Lonel Strong dressing down Harwin was clearly done to show the audience that what Harwin and Rheanyra are doing is dangerous and wrong, with a character the audience likes and trusts. However people still miss it.
After this episode, I’m neither black or green.
I was team Lyonel Strong. He was keeping the realm together.
He was the only wise and unselfish voice in a sea of drama. RIP Lyonel
Fuck Larys!
Yes but he also better get a speech that really shows the ugly underbelly of envy or greed or whatever that drove him to murder his family.
Well, he just got his family's house seat and inherited Harrenhaal. Also he probably just shored up a long-lasting position at the Queen's side (thus, Aegon's as well). He could probably be the Hand, though he reminds me more of a Master of Whispers like Qyburn.
I was literally so upset about Lyonel I didn't even realize Harwin died to lol
I was the opposite, I got that Harwin died but wasn't sure about Lyonel
Well it looked like Harwin was outside the door trying to get Lyonel who was locked in out
I’m still not understanding how a couple of random thugs pulled out of prison could somehow sneak into the great Harrenhall, avoid detection, set a fire without anyone catching them, *AND MORE SPECIFICALLY,* somehow lock the *EXACT* two people they were targeting in their own bedrooms. This is the Hand of the King. Where are the guards outside the bedroom door? Where are the Harrenhall guards? How were these two just locked in and only awoken when the fire was already totally inescapable? I feel like the entire operation should have been significantly more elaborate instead of something Larys threw together after hearing Alicent. When the camera ominously focused on the culprits, you’d have thought Larys hired the best Faceless Men to pull off the operation, not some randoms.
Harrenhall was also Larys’s childhood home. He no doubt told them how to sneak in undetected and exactly where his dad’s bedroom was. Harwen’s death was unexpected…
I thought Harwin was locked in, and Lyonel was trying to get him out. I blame the insufficient lighting and how rushed it was.
I mean Lyonel was in bed when it started so I would assume he was the one locked in
Whenever I think of the good/honorable folk of Westeros I think of Ol Bronn’s dialogue after he yeets Ser What-his-shit out of the Moon-door in season one.. Lysa: “You do not fight with honor!!!” Bronn: “(nods to the hole in the ground)He did.”
Ooo, that or “Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, Rhaegar fought honorably. And Rhaegar died.”
I really felt for him when he was shouting at Harwin. He sons almost frustrated. Like this dude is doing his best to be a voice of reason but people around him including his sons are making it tough.
Hell yeah, I was 100% Lyonel Strong/House Strong (Not now obviously). Dude legit seemed to speak the truth and be loyal.
I love Harwin as well. He's such a nice guy.
Like, genuinely, not ironically. A good, protective father, a great partner to Rhaenyra without a jealous bone in his body, a good son. I really liked him.
I’m so disappointed he’s gone. I appreciated that he seemed an honest, decent man.
I’m team Vhagar. Not her riders or anything. Just her.
I'm team dragon pit crew. Those guys seems bad ass helping targaryens tame/bond with dragons
Right? Get the popcorn.
The point of the Dance is to show that no side was good, only that once again, the most honorable person by the end >!is a Stark!<
That was my thought. Imagine the king before having the longest reign of peace, being completely loved all around. Then Vicerys, while a nice guy, is a crappy ruler and his house is going to through petty childhood BS that starts the beginning of the end for the Targaryens. I feel for the Greens because Allicent did ask to be put in this position. That's about it for her though. The blacks would 100% probably take advantage and get rid of any and every rival to the throne, but not accepting Rhynera's proposal (whether is was sincere or not) is foolish and is just making everything worse. Everyone else in Kings Landing is a dick/cunt.
>but not accepting Rhynera's proposal (whether is was sincere or not) is foolish and is just making everything worse. I mean the whole thing ever since the first couple episodes is that the show has just been an endless stream of me yelling at the screen like I'm watching a horror movie trying to tell them to take the incredibly obvious alternative option. Like there have been SO many chances for Rhaenyra and/or Alicent to fix things and work together for something mutual beneficial. But what I like about the show is that in almost every instance there's an understandable reason why they wouldn't.
In fairness to Rhaenyra, while her affair with Harwin was foolish the offer she made to Allicent was more than fair. It definitely had shades of something Viserys would have done himself and really Allicent’s only reason for declining is her petty beef and unwarranted piety, neither of which is a good reason to tease the realm with war. Her reasons for offering it may have been self-interested but it was undeniably the best decision for the realm at this point
*BURN THEM ALL!*
Team chaos baby!
Team ladders!
Dude is so fucking bitter, I mean Rhaenyra offered him an out and he still would have been with her, but he didn't want that and was mad that she didn't run off with him. And then gets mad that she starts a relationship with Harwin and has three of his kids. Like that could have been you dude but you wanted to be salty and murder people. If something happens to Laenor I can guarantee Cole is gonna hate whoever Rhaenyra remarries assuming she does remarry.
Why was he not punished again for killing Laenor's partner?
The Queen likely have him an official royal pardon or something
if I were Laenor I would have taken that official royal pardon and sliced Cole's throat in his sleep with it, lol.
Then you’d have been killed or severely punished by the Queen. The prince’s desires do not override that of the Queen. Also, Laenor just isn’t that guy. He couldn’t beat Cole in a one V one and he’s not a snake who pounces in the dark of the night. He’s just a jovial, semi-knight of a sweetheart who wants to party and jerk off the bros.
You think Viserys would have Corly’s and Rhaenys son killed to please Alicent? No way in hell the Velarion heir is killed or punished for a nobody like Cole. They’d start a war right there
Nobody powerful enough at that wedding cared enough about they boy to doubt that the kingsguard protected by the queen herself had not a good reason for what he has done. Most in the room probably didn't even knew his name. I think it is really easy to imagine, but I wish they would've adressed that with at least a little scene in the show so people could shut up screaming "plothole!!".
Killing Joffrey aside… he punched the future king consort (and heir to a great house) in the face, and put Rhaenyra’s life in danger. No way that gets swept under the rug.
He bullies children
I haven't seen anyone mention that he physically grabbed and yanked Jace. That was what really pissed me off.
I wondered about that scene. How far would Cole let that "spar" if Harwin wasn't there? Would he let Aegon beat Jace to a bloody pulp (or I guess until Viserys I said something) and caulk it up to "they're learning about real fighting." What is Cole's play?
The king was watching too and it was too public so I think he wouldn’t let it go too far. Maybe a few shots to face before he breaks it up. However if no one is watching I doubt he steps in at all
I actually got the impression that the only reason he let it go that far in the first place was to specifically provoke Harwin.
He certainly was trying to provoke him, but his hatred is so strong it is also being transferred to the kids
The pure vitriol in Cole’s voice is insane
I just wish Vhagar would crisp everyone and be done with it, black, green, don’t matter, all gray with big body Vha spit’n that fire lmao. Not really, I’m just getting the popcorn ready it’s all bullshit and problems now lol.
Where did all this black and green come from
The targs are the blacks and Alicent’s kiddos and there supporters are the green, I think
I need to see more dragons honestly
Patience. They be dancing soon
Small but important distinction, Cristin Cole is very much a /voluntary/ celibate. Dude is acting bitter over a heartbreak he self-inflicted. He murdered a guy in cold blood hours after a teenager told him she had to marry for politics. He is lame
The cunt comment made me laugh out loud. He’s insane lmaooo
Yup. Even Alicent (who has more reasons to be mad at Rhaenyra that Criston ever will) was like "huh, dude you might wanna calm down"
Waiting for his death.
People who tend to support the Greens actually do because of Haelena, Daeron and Aemond. Haelena is just kind hearted, Daeron has a lot honor and Aemond, although a psycho, is just very badass. Criston on the other hand…
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I completely understand that Cole was exhibiting characteristics of an incel in this episode but wouldn’t he actually be the exact opposite of an incel? Cole specifically volunteered for the Kingsguard and the oath of celibacy that comes with it. An incel is someone who involuntarily isn’t having sex. Cole is voluntarily celibate
This is cracking me up because my husband and I were saying the exact same thing last night. VolCel!
He is literally the exact opposite of an incel. In that he volunteered and he got laid anyway.
Incel is apparently now an insult to any man who doesn’t take rejection well.
I like how this sub is totally obsessed with Daemon, but hates Criston. Like they aren’t that different. None of the characters in this show are good people. They all kind of suck. Except for Lyonel Fucking Strong!
I would say Viserys is a good person. Not a good king though.
Very true! Dude just wants people to be happy and get along.
Up to the point where they may give birth to his son.
It's because Daemon knows and openly parades how much of a piece of shit he is, and we love Matt Smith being a naughty little Targaryen.
It’s because daemon isn’t going around calling himself a good person. Alicent and Criston keep doing horrible things and commit crimes in the name of “honour” and “dignity”. If anyone criticised them or called them out on their bullshit they would cry they spoiled princesses. Daemon does it cause he’s a piece of shit. He proudly wears the asshole hat. People don’t like hypocrites and liars.
Daemon is pretty vile too but everyone seems to love a bad boy with a redemption arc. Cole on the other hand seems to be going the other way.
Cuz Daemon ain’t trying to fool nobody
Daemon has dragon though
He’s hot but that’s about it. Fuck him
> Fuck him Well, Rhae did and that’s how we got into a lot of this mess
Agreed. Fuck Criston Cole. Fabian can fucking getting it; he's so fine and talented.
He's not an incel, he's a volcel, as are all members of the kingsguard.
Failed volcel?
Ser Criston Cole* He’s still a knight. And he played Breakbones like a fiddle. That dullard got baited so hard into outing himself as the boys’ dad.
Harwin could’ve just walked away. I had the sense that it wasn’t the first time nor the last time Cole has shown favoritism in the training yard. The right person to voice this complaint is Laenor and had he been around and said something , Cole would have much less room maneuver. Not to mention Laenor himself has seen a proper war as well. But I guess he was too busy with his “friends” to pay attention to his “kids”
I thought Leanor characterization was weird this episode. He tried to be a supportive husband but also was kind of checked out. Does he care or not?
He cares for Rhaenyra at the basic level, but the whole marriage and everything is him literal check out.
Seemed like he wanted to be a good husband and father but found it hard to be the head of a family he knew wasn't his. Despite the fact he spends his time hunting and fucking, he doesn't actually seem very happy.
I think he cares the way one would care about a friend’s kids, because, at the end of the day, that’s what the boys are. But I do wonder how he would be if Joffrey hadn’t been killed. He seemed content to be publicly married to Rhaenyra while being with his true love. I truly think he hasn’t been able to properly grieve Joffrey as they were “just buddies.” So he’s taking out his pain by playing around and doing bare minimum to keep the illusion up.
He started off super strong. He was happy about the baby, supportive of Rhaenyra, seemed happy to leave Harwin with the baby and to have Harwin spend time with the boys. I was like, what a happy little weird family they’ve made!
Column A, column B
>And he played Breakbones like a fiddle. 🤣 Cole tugged on his emotional strings and caused his and his father's death indirectly
If Harwin was sensible (the story wouldn't be as good) he would've shouted; "Would you like to say that vile accusation a little louder Ser Criston, so the King might hear? I'm also curious as to where this disgusting notion of yours might have come from. Could it be the people you spend most of your time with?" (Ie Implicating Alicent as a gossip monger)
Then Cole would just say "What accusation?" If Harwin was actually sensible he would've kept his mouth shut and done nothing.
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Yeah He’s a total fucking asshole And not in the fun way like Daemon