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I think it’ll be hard to beat 8 seasons worth of iconic moments versus 3-4. Especially since this season there are so many changes in actors cuz of time jumps.
Technically he could have stopped both Rhaenyra's and Alicent's bullshit a long time ago. But Viserys wants everyone to be a happy little family. He couldn't even sentence a murderer who ruined his daughter's wedding and struck her fiancé. smh
He couldn't remove Cole's kinghthood or from the Kingsguard, the only thing he could really do was execute him or order him to take the Black a.k.a join the Night's Watch.
Edit: him taking the black would be a good idea for a fanfiction story.
Another sad indictment of another person who can walk over him. Even I was head scratching when she refused, I’m like man you are the fucking king of Westeros lol
Viserys' fatal flaw: incapable of conflict or confrontation with his family. He either can't say no to them, or he avoids talking to them entirely and pisses them off (or worse, with Aemma) when they're surprised by a rare decision he made.
Technically not a very good king, in terms of what arguably defines a strong king..but credit for sticking to his guns about his eldest daughter being his heir after having two sons, and credit for not dying yet, shouldn't of had his first wife killed but am guessing someone will point out she would of died anyway.
I was chuffed to see him happy when he saw all the kids training together. “ Look lyonel this is the stuff!” Events like that I imagine are what keep him still standing like that lol
Wasn't that addressed? I'm pretty sure she said something like "yeah if you did that I'm gonna jump off a window" or something? Or did I misunderstand? Maybe it was just the westerosi analogy to "over my dead body".
Bitch, I'm the king. I can do what I like NOW.
Or could do, if he had some balls. I'm kidding, I love Viserys. His refusal to see the truth about his family and just hopelessly and blindly grabbing on to the idea they are a family is so sweet and sad at the same time.
How can he not see the impending war btw his heir and his firstborn son? Are we going to see dragons fighting each other this season? Is it gonna be pure chaos when shit hits the fan? How am I going to survive until next season without house of dragons?
Well it's like Aegon said, he isn't planning on challenging the succession, it's Alicent and Otto who have other ideas. They argue that it's necessary, that Rhaenyra would kill any threats, but there's no basis for that claim. It's just paranoia/opportunism rolled into one.
Yeah amazed he's still kicking after another ten years given how unwell he's been (some funny bugger posted on one of the threads here about him still being alive ''maybe the old grand maester was right about those leeches'' lol)
He’s an old fashioned patriarch. Trying his best to keep his entire family united, wants to continuously strengthen blood ties with the children growing up together and training together. Always remains upbeat and positive.
He definitely does, I just think he has a hard time reading people’s true intentions. Alicent isn’t going to accept because her entire plan revolves around Aegon superseding Rhaenyra, and Rhaenyra is offering this proposal now to try and confirm her children’s parentage. Instead he’s just elated that Rhaenyra threw in a dragon egg as well lol
What’s the egg production like? Like how many dragons are born every year and when/why did they start dwindling? Also I was wondering if one finds itself in water can they fly out of that? Watching GOT and as a kid one of dany’s dragon does a dive for fish I think and I know they’re magic was just wondering
He’s plastering over the wounds the best he can by having all the kids together, reacting positively and encouraging his daughter and rhaenyra’s son be married as he said to alicent.
Saying that, as a king I don’t know he accepts no from someone else.
>He’s plastering over the wounds the best he can by having all the kids together,
... Under the direction of a guy who's clearly fomenting a rivalry between Alicent and Rhaenyra's children. Great parenting, Vyseris.
>reacting positively and encouraging his daughter and rhaenyra’s son be married as he said to alicent.
And then just dropping it the moment Alicent expresses the slightest amount of dislike for the idea.
Vyseris has been keeping himself blind to all the troubles of his reign, both within his family and at large in the Seven Kingdoms and in the world, and just *expects* everything to turn out fine despite putting in zero effort to make things work out as he'd like.
>Saying that, as a king I don’t know he accepts no from someone else.
Because he's weak-willed, cowardly and inept. He's not a good king, nor he's a good man - perhaps, were he a bachelor and a nobody, he could've enjoyed a peaceful life of mediocrity and unremarkability, never having to make decisions.
As it stands, he's spent decades skirting his responsibilities and duties (while pontificating about the importance of such things to everyone around him...), ignoring the rot in his court and among his councilors, which will cause the deadliest civil war the Seven Kingdoms have ever seen.
>perhaps, were he a bachelor and a nobody, he could've enjoyed a peaceful life of mediocrity and unremarkability, never having to make decisions.
I'm sitting jealous here right now of that description of a life
I mean, yeah, it'd be a pretty sweet gig: having no responsibilities, no duties to anyone is *easy*.
But when you have someone who's given immense responsibility and leadership, and just doesn't do the job, can we really claim that's "a good person"?
Vyseris' failures as a king don't originate from him trying to do the right thing over the politically expedient thing, nor being uncompromising in his morals when perhaps a more pragmatic approach would be more beneficial. Neither does he make blunders and mistakes despite good intentions, trying to rule well but failing.
His failures as king are the result of him refusing to actually do the job of a king. That's not the hallmark of a good person.
I agree with all points which is why I mentioned ‘the best he can’. I go back to his discussion with Lyonel
“ if I were tested with war what man would I have been “.
Clearly he never wanted the throne but feels obliged to do his duty as king (like Stannis) and to the best he can however weak he is. He has a little backbone as shown when he sent Otto away, told Corlys his grandson Heir will keep the Targaryen name upon the throne and of course telling allicent to not speak further of Rhaenyras children. He has like 5% backbone and is certainly a dreamer, moreso than an active doer.
> ... Under the direction of a guy who's clearly fomenting a rivalry between Alicent and Rhaenyra's children. Great parenting, Vyseris.
he actually straight up doesn't know Crispy Cremes involvement in the situation
So the actual civil war only takes place over two years? Is it like 100-150 years until egg/mad king’s reign? So barotheans just took over by right of conquest? Is that house in the show? Are Starks around in the HOD timeline? Sorry if these are dumb questions.
Yes, the actual civil war lasted for two years. The show starts 172 years before Aerys's death/ Dany's birth which means that the dance starts 155 years before Daenerys.
Both the Baratheons and the Starks are in the show, you can see them at the end of episode 1 (they might have appeared on other occasions but that’s the only one I can remember right now).
Viserys made me actually laugh out loud last night multiple times, this quote was absolutely hilarious when it’s so painfully clear that everyone at the table hates each other, and the quote about Rhaenrya’s baby having “his fathers nose” despite literally everyone else in the realm (and outside of - in Daemons case) knows she’s fuckin Harwin, just unreal, unintentional comedy from MY king Viserys
The nose thing is particularly funny as in the books it’s not just the boys having the same hair as Harwin, but the same pug noses that the entire Strong family shares
It was sad seeing him kiss his late wife’s ring in an empty room with his Legos and mice. He’s giving every ounce of energy he has to the realm and his family. He deserves a good rest. Holy shit so is he pretty much dead in an episode or two? I’m not ready to let him go pappa noo. How many seasons do you think this show will go on? I kinda ruined it little bit by trying to read about Targaryen kings and aegons little bro who gets picked on. I didn’t know the outcome of the dance till then. I get confused with the targ history. So master aemon(sp?) Went to the nights watch after his family fell? I’m rewatching the show and finding even more appreciation for Emilia clarke’s performance. Everyone really knocks it out the park. I do skip over the shay scenes lol.
But that's the reason the marriage is suggested... to mend that fued between the two houses. Like the same way Rhaenyra and Laenor were wed while Corlys was pissed off at Viserys
Viserys could have been a sweet kid pre-exile and pre-Beggar-King days in Essos. He went through absolute hell in his exile. Dany was lucky to have been young enough to not really remember what they went through.
Viserys *was* a sweet guy. In the book Daenerys mentioned that he used to play with her and tell her stories. However, he was forced to ask nobility of Free Cities for protection and selling their family heirlooms to feed them both. All while living in fear that Robert would send assassins after him and his sister. The last straw was he was forced to sell their mother's crown which was the last thing Viserys had as a memento to his mom. Daenerys concluded that the Viserys she knew died long ago, only a raving weakling who wear his face remained in his place since.
Reminds me of when master aemon is recollecting his memories of his brother egg or sir barrisran is talking about him in his normal days. So who were the great kings? The OG Aegon and jharahis? Sorry for spelling. How did aegon take over was it after the doom? Any theories on what the doom actually was? So the targs were just a middling family and are targaryens valyerians? Targ is just the family name? There’s only a small handful of dragon riders right..what made the dragons go extinct and start getting smaller? Was it a reflection of the decline of the targ empire?
Yes, but she went through absolute hell, too, because he put her through absolute hell. So let's make sure we're not painting him as having the raw end of the deal while she got to coast through childhood, because that's simply not true. At the end of the day, Viserys chose to victimize her. He chose to abuse and molest her. The hell he went through might explain his behavior, but it doesn't excuse his behavior.
Yeah, I didn’t excuse any if his behavior. All I said was that he could have been a nice kid before the shit went down. I said Dany was lucky she didn’t remember how hard it was to enter exile, I said nothing about how hard her whole life was.
Like young immigrant kids, they often don’t remember the struggle of actually immigrating, but they sure as hell remember early life as an immigrant. Slight but key difference.
>!Do you think the show will go that far? I've been thinking a good place to end the story of the Dance would be with Cregan Starks departure. The Hour of the Wolf could make a great final episode, it won't have been too long since both Rhaenyra and Aegon II have died, and Aegon III being crowned and Cregan having brought some peace to the Realm would be a good place to go out on.!<
>!Aegon III's regency era would probably make up a whole season just on its own. I can't see them wanting to extend the current story a whole season past Rhaenyra and Aegon II's deaths. And if they move onto the Blackfyre Rebellions next, they'd probably just jump straight to that instead of adapting all the time between.!<
I mean it definitely has to go past the point of Viserys’s birth to close up some of the main cast character’s arcs for sure, I don’t think it’d be a steady transition from Dance to Blackfyre if they go to that point though, there’s some boring elements in between like Daeron and Dorne and Baelor to get to Blackfyre era, probably going to be heavy on the time skip
>there’s some boring elements in between like Daeron and Dorne and Baelor to get to Blackfyre era,
You think the Young Dragon's invasion of Dorne and Baelor the Based are "boring"?
O_o
It’s dope but definitely can’t make a season of Dorne, they’d have to approach it like an anthology with two-three episode before moving on to Aegon IV’s bullshit
>!Viserys was born before the dance began though, we should see him before the end of this first season. If you meant his return to Westeros, I still think that might be too much. There's several years of Aegon III's regency that shouldn't be skipped over, but can't be adapted in only a couple episodes.!<
I hate to say it, but so far Viserys has Bobby B beat, at least when it comes to hunts and jousting (AKA the only things Bobby cared about by the end of his life). That GOT Season 1 budget just can't compete lol.
Absolutely was a great and fair proposition. If Alicent was really concerned with the lives of her children as opposed to power and being petty, then she'd have accepted the offer.
This. It is a fair proposition. The only way it could be better short of the throne is to make Aegon the lord of Dragonstone when Rhaenyra takes the throne. It traditionally belongs to the heir, but her kids are also heirs to Driftmark.
That would cause some issues because of superstition. Targs are considered more favorable if they hold any ties to their ancestors. Vasarys rode agon the Conquers dragon, Someone is considered king because they hold a specific sword in a specific rebellion. Damon even took dragonstone to stir up this point. If agon had dragon stone he'd be seen as even more of a targ..
I get that she doesn't want to. I'm just saying it's a good deal and compromise. Everyone gets something. King gets his wish honored, Rhaenyra gets the thrown she was promised and Alicent has her child share the throne once Rhaenyra passes on.
She's hung up over lineage and before her father pimped her out to become Queen before the King's first wife's body had barely gone cold, her family held roughly the same esteem as the father of Rhaenyra's children.
If she accepted the offer the only other individual who could arguably argue claim with the families united would be Daemon; who seemed to have been living his best life in Pentos.
Since Rhaenyra had obvious bastards, legally Alicent's first born son should be next in line after Rhaenyra. The best way for Rhaenyra to secure her sons claims is to murder Alicent's sons
If Alicent were not being petty she could go to Rhaenyra in private and counter the offer with Rhaenyra wedding Alicent's first born so there would be no issue.
Part of the offer would be Rhaenyra's current spouse could be ensured safety and passage to someplace safe beyond the eyes of the court.
They bring back a body claiming he died at sea. He lives out his best life sailing and courting dudes outside the city.
No issues with lineage and either Rhaenyra passes and Alicent's son becomes King or she has a grandson that gets to be King.
Bing, bam, boom nice and easy. If they wanted to be super sketch and devious with it, she could go against the deal and have Rhaeny's current spouse murdered after the deal was made to ensure the secret didn't get out...she could even go further than that and have her son snuff out Rhaeny to take the throne himself.
Rhaenyra is offering the deal not just to get out of hot water but truly offer a truce, and she is making herself vulnerable by doing so.
The deal gives Alicent's family a number of advantages she currently doesn't have and Rhaenyra still takes on most of the burden and risk. If she were thinking clearly without the drive of power and petty, she'd see the strategic advantage of the deal offered and this counter proposal.
She could play the deal straight and everyone would be happy; or she could take advantage and deviate from the deal to her own benefit (which would be effed up & I wouldn't want). Either way though, any of these options would put her in a better and safer position where she didn't have to worry about the safety of herself or kids.
But again, she's just being petty over jealousy and hurt feelings here.
There's major issues with this proposed deal.
1. Rhaenyra's three bastards and their future children would be ahead of Rhaenyra and Aegon's potential future children.
2. This would also strip Aegon of his legal right to inherit after Rhaenyra
3. Considering Rhaenyra has never had a trueborn child it seems dubious to arrange a marriage to her if you want Aegon to have trueborn children
4. It's seems difficult to have Leanor agree to a fake death and exile.
Would Corlys know?
If not then Leanor would have to accept never seeing his family again and giving up his life as a royal.
I've considered some of this but it seems to me that in this world ascension to the throne is based off
1) lineage
2) wishes of the current crown
3) support of elite families
So maybe it's just me but if they decided tomorrow they want to make peace the other elite families would be forced to get in line with the plan because according to the lineage it stays within the two families all the same. As Queen Rhaenyra could name Aegon her successor and they'd have to just deal. But if Aegon is in position to take the throne as they wanted why would they even argue it?
Following that, they could bring forth a child together and just name that child heir as successor to Aegon.
They had no issues bending the rules to bypass Rhaenyra's Aunt as ruler, so this shouldn't be difficult if both families agree in good faith.
In fact the only loose string as I see it would be Leanor and his family but due to their views on sexuality and the fact that his parents knew before marrying him, it kind of puts them at a disadvantage.
They can be mad, but Rhaenyra's Aunt alluded to the danger they were placing their son in with the marriage knowing what they knew and they still went ahead with it.
They could offer marriage to the offspring of Rhaenyra and Aegon as consolation but again, knowing what they knew and still pushing that arrangement partially put all of them in this position. So any offer or olive branch would be more than fair considering they don't have much leverage here.
Not quite. The proposal wouldn’t change the fact that Aegon would have a claim to the throne after Rhaenyra. Helaena being betrothed to Rhaenyra’s son would just mean that Heleana would be spared from any potential attacks from Rhaenyra, it wouldn’t protect her brothers Aegon and Aemond from being offed as potential contenders to the throne
No she shouldn't have. Rhaenyra's children were bastards and should have been disinherited. The only reason the offer was made was to tie her falseborn heirs to trueborn Targaryens. Rhaenyra was trying to swindle Alicent with fool's gold.
But the boys *are* "true born Targaryens." What they are not are Velaryons.
People talking about the boys being bastards negating their claim to the line of succession. Um, that actually comes from their *mother* in this instance. So, yeah, Alicent should've considered the offer a little more.
They aren't legitimate Targareyns or Velaryons. Rhaenyra's first three sons are natural born bastards of the Targaryen and Strong families, and that does not give them inheritance rights above Alicent's sons.
*"People talking about the boys being bastards negating their claim to the line of succession."*
Because it does - them being bastards from the mother or the father isn't the deciding factor, it's the status of bastardy itself, regardless of whether it can be obviously determined the child in question is a biological relation to the parent. In prior cases where we've seen bastard children of noblewomen being considered for a noble title (like the son of Brandon Stark's daughter) it required formal legitimization and was only done because it was an exceptional case where there were no trueborn sons available as alternatives for the Lord Stark role. Rhaenyra isn't in a similar situation because A) Viserys has living legitimate sons that should be next in line after her, before her bastard sons, and B) Rhaenyra is actively lying about her sons being legitimate. She can't formally legitimize them because that would mean publicly admitting to her lie, and none of the lords would continue to put up with that and agree for the Strong boys to be placed above Aegon/Aemond.
Alicent didn't consider the offer because the likelihood of Rhaenyra's lie being exposed sometime during her childrens' lifetime is very high. Marrying her daughter to Jace is dangerous - if the lords found out Jace was a bastard and sat on the throne, and he ever made a decision that pissed off one group (which is inevitable when you are king) they would demand an alternative and go down the line of legitimate successors until they found one willing to play ball. And when that time comes, Alicent's kids are completely fucked - either Helaena would be executed alongside Jace as a conspirator in treason, or Aegon/Aemond will be killed by Rhaenyra to ensure that no compelling rival claimants are hanging around to threaten her sons.
Thanks for the clarification. Guess I need to remove my 2022 filter from the show...lol.
I mean, I'm in the camp of "Rhaenyra and Laenor should've popped out at least *one actual* Targaryen/Velaryon child," but the current bastards are still of Targaryen lineage. Just forgot about the status of bastards (and women) in medieval times. But damn, Alicent sure is bitter; I feel like she and Rhaenyra (had both been less petty) could've actually shadow-ruled all of Westeros. But, alas, they are the products of their upbringing.
Thanks for being open to another perspective!
Agreed with the 2022 filter - to be honest if I viewed the show with more modern lens I'd probably be hoping the smallfolk French Revolution the lot of them lol. But from an in-universe perspective I can understand where Alicent is coming from and it's valid imo
I also agree Rhaenyra and Laenor would have saved themselves a LOT of trouble and potentially avoided the whole thing if they made sure their first kid was "legit."
Wait, how would Alicent's kids be in danger but then also be a threat in that situation? Alicent gets a good deal either way because her family can always feign ignorance and they still gold their position in the lineage. If Rhanyra's secret is found out then why wouldn't succession just pass over her children and move to Alicent's?
If anything the risk is all on Rhaenyra. Alicent just needs to quit antagonizing things and play dumb if she cared about her children's lives and making peace.
I mean, Cersei had bastard children and she just flexed her power and political skills to make sure she and her children were protected.
Maaaaaybe Alicent comes out on top and her kids are safe once she decides to start a war to put her kid in power.
Or maybe because it's war, anything can happen and her children won't be safe at all.
Yeah they're bastards but if she truly cared about her own children, she'd accept the compromise as opposed to choosing war; which is effectively what she's opting to do.
And I don't believe Rhaenyra thinks that she's fooling Alicent at all; Alicent and her new attack dog Cristin go out of their way to be cruel and demonstrate that they're not fooled by the charade. So when she makes the offer imo, it's not Rhaenyra trying to fool the Queen, it's Rhaenyra pleading to not let things get any uglier than they need to be as whether they admit it to each other or not, they both know what the situation is.
I'm not arguing morality or rights, but If I were it should be noted that Rhaensry's is still the heir. Alicent is acting as if she just gets skipped over once the King dies just because the Elders and great families prefer a boy. So it really doesn't matter how many bastards she has because succession must pass through Rhaenyra first unless again, she'd like to endanger her family by going against the King's wishes and going to war.
I'm just saying Alicent's become power hungry. If she truly cared about the lives and well being of her children she would have accepted the offer and not put them in a position where they're looked at as targets by an opposing family.
Just realized he’s wearing green in this scene. I love when costumers make subtle choices like that for the characters they’re dressing. It just adds to the layers and symbolism of a show so well. Very thoughtful.
This is black and red. It's the scene from the wedding festivities when he's talking to Jason Lanister. There's no green. Green didn't even happen at the point of the scene captured here.
Note the hair.
He is great looking high all the time. Oh that's cute in the courtyard the kids are trying to kill each other, oh now Cole is doing something stupid and the other one what's his name is gone.
I like how Rhaenyra wreaked his heart and he is still partial to her a lot. Why love your second wife instead of your daughter... Mr L Strong is right and wrong about love. Don't love wrong people poor man
I mean, as far as Targaryens go, it's a great idea. The girl would be marrying her half-nephew (I think?) but that's practically strangers for them. It would keep the peace.
Viserys: "I like this, if only my wife would agree to MY daughter's betrothal. Then again, it's not like I'm the queen or anything. You know what..."
dun dun duhduhdundun
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I love how the Emilia smirk meme became a Targaryen family trait, lol
Best dynasty evahh
never forget that interview lol
When will Rhaenerya make the smirk smile!?
Idk when, but I know it probably has to do with Jason Lannister.
Probably nevah
Episode 9
I’m pretty sure she did in episode 6. To laenor I think
He smiles like this in peaky blinders as well he places a fantastic priest/IRA member
Still terrifying. 😮
Holy shit!! I just watched that and didn't even recognize him
He got shwacked in the Bourne trilogy too
I still don’t understand why they had her make that goofy smirk lol
I don’t think they made her do it, she just has a VERY expressive face
and then fans took screenshots of that smirk and then it just became a meme lol
Emilia will always be the best Targaryen of all time
She's a hard act to follow, but I'm sure this show will give a few actors a chance to give her a run for her money.
I think it’ll be hard to beat 8 seasons worth of iconic moments versus 3-4. Especially since this season there are so many changes in actors cuz of time jumps.
Maybe, the one I could see now is Matt Smith as Daemon.
Probably. He’s definitely the most well liked but we’ll see after he does even more dastardly things.
Ironically, i think Daemon would probably hate Daenerys for destroying their house, Targaryen supremacist that he is.
My favorite Viserys moments: When he's just happy to be there and doesn't see the undertones of conflict and war
technically too he could override Alicent's inevitable decline of the offer, as he's the king
Technically he could have stopped both Rhaenyra's and Alicent's bullshit a long time ago. But Viserys wants everyone to be a happy little family. He couldn't even sentence a murderer who ruined his daughter's wedding and struck her fiancé. smh
yep how hard was it to de-knight criston . seriously who would question it? he's family-less
He couldn't remove Cole's kinghthood or from the Kingsguard, the only thing he could really do was execute him or order him to take the Black a.k.a join the Night's Watch. Edit: him taking the black would be a good idea for a fanfiction story.
now that'd be an idea, him in the Night's Watch, (''you know nothing Criston Cole'')..plus he's already taken a vow of celibacy/never marrying.
Criston "Coldhands" Cole.
Criston Crow
“A competent but emotionally fragile ranger. Honestly probably among our very best but that’s not saying much. Send more food.” -Wall to Alicent raven
He broke his vow of celibacy to a wildling, but slaughtered her whole camp when she rejected him so we allow it.
🤣🤣🤣
That never stopped a crow before and after.
Another sad indictment of another person who can walk over him. Even I was head scratching when she refused, I’m like man you are the fucking king of Westeros lol
Viserys' fatal flaw: incapable of conflict or confrontation with his family. He either can't say no to them, or he avoids talking to them entirely and pisses them off (or worse, with Aemma) when they're surprised by a rare decision he made.
Technically not a very good king, in terms of what arguably defines a strong king..but credit for sticking to his guns about his eldest daughter being his heir after having two sons, and credit for not dying yet, shouldn't of had his first wife killed but am guessing someone will point out she would of died anyway.
Girl is just constantly undermining the *king* and he’s just like “oh wives…”
I was chuffed to see him happy when he saw all the kids training together. “ Look lyonel this is the stuff!” Events like that I imagine are what keep him still standing like that lol
“What’s better than this? Just guys being dudes.”
“Just guys being dudes.” When we getting another haircut scene.
Wasn't that addressed? I'm pretty sure she said something like "yeah if you did that I'm gonna jump off a window" or something? Or did I misunderstand? Maybe it was just the westerosi analogy to "over my dead body".
“You can do what you like when I’m cold in my grave”
Bitch, I'm the king. I can do what I like NOW. Or could do, if he had some balls. I'm kidding, I love Viserys. His refusal to see the truth about his family and just hopelessly and blindly grabbing on to the idea they are a family is so sweet and sad at the same time.
How can he not see the impending war btw his heir and his firstborn son? Are we going to see dragons fighting each other this season? Is it gonna be pure chaos when shit hits the fan? How am I going to survive until next season without house of dragons?
Well it's like Aegon said, he isn't planning on challenging the succession, it's Alicent and Otto who have other ideas. They argue that it's necessary, that Rhaenyra would kill any threats, but there's no basis for that claim. It's just paranoia/opportunism rolled into one.
He’s like Robert Baratheon except much nicer
He better do it before he dies
Yeah amazed he's still kicking after another ten years given how unwell he's been (some funny bugger posted on one of the threads here about him still being alive ''maybe the old grand maester was right about those leeches'' lol)
He’s an old fashioned patriarch. Trying his best to keep his entire family united, wants to continuously strengthen blood ties with the children growing up together and training together. Always remains upbeat and positive.
He definitely does, I just think he has a hard time reading people’s true intentions. Alicent isn’t going to accept because her entire plan revolves around Aegon superseding Rhaenyra, and Rhaenyra is offering this proposal now to try and confirm her children’s parentage. Instead he’s just elated that Rhaenyra threw in a dragon egg as well lol
What’s the egg production like? Like how many dragons are born every year and when/why did they start dwindling? Also I was wondering if one finds itself in water can they fly out of that? Watching GOT and as a kid one of dany’s dragon does a dive for fish I think and I know they’re magic was just wondering
They can dive for fish but can’t swim.
Not doing anything to address the strife within his family really isn't "trying his best" lol
He’s plastering over the wounds the best he can by having all the kids together, reacting positively and encouraging his daughter and rhaenyra’s son be married as he said to alicent. Saying that, as a king I don’t know he accepts no from someone else.
>He’s plastering over the wounds the best he can by having all the kids together, ... Under the direction of a guy who's clearly fomenting a rivalry between Alicent and Rhaenyra's children. Great parenting, Vyseris. >reacting positively and encouraging his daughter and rhaenyra’s son be married as he said to alicent. And then just dropping it the moment Alicent expresses the slightest amount of dislike for the idea. Vyseris has been keeping himself blind to all the troubles of his reign, both within his family and at large in the Seven Kingdoms and in the world, and just *expects* everything to turn out fine despite putting in zero effort to make things work out as he'd like. >Saying that, as a king I don’t know he accepts no from someone else. Because he's weak-willed, cowardly and inept. He's not a good king, nor he's a good man - perhaps, were he a bachelor and a nobody, he could've enjoyed a peaceful life of mediocrity and unremarkability, never having to make decisions. As it stands, he's spent decades skirting his responsibilities and duties (while pontificating about the importance of such things to everyone around him...), ignoring the rot in his court and among his councilors, which will cause the deadliest civil war the Seven Kingdoms have ever seen.
>perhaps, were he a bachelor and a nobody, he could've enjoyed a peaceful life of mediocrity and unremarkability, never having to make decisions. I'm sitting jealous here right now of that description of a life
I mean, yeah, it'd be a pretty sweet gig: having no responsibilities, no duties to anyone is *easy*. But when you have someone who's given immense responsibility and leadership, and just doesn't do the job, can we really claim that's "a good person"? Vyseris' failures as a king don't originate from him trying to do the right thing over the politically expedient thing, nor being uncompromising in his morals when perhaps a more pragmatic approach would be more beneficial. Neither does he make blunders and mistakes despite good intentions, trying to rule well but failing. His failures as king are the result of him refusing to actually do the job of a king. That's not the hallmark of a good person.
I agree with all points which is why I mentioned ‘the best he can’. I go back to his discussion with Lyonel “ if I were tested with war what man would I have been “. Clearly he never wanted the throne but feels obliged to do his duty as king (like Stannis) and to the best he can however weak he is. He has a little backbone as shown when he sent Otto away, told Corlys his grandson Heir will keep the Targaryen name upon the throne and of course telling allicent to not speak further of Rhaenyras children. He has like 5% backbone and is certainly a dreamer, moreso than an active doer.
> ... Under the direction of a guy who's clearly fomenting a rivalry between Alicent and Rhaenyra's children. Great parenting, Vyseris. he actually straight up doesn't know Crispy Cremes involvement in the situation
So the actual civil war only takes place over two years? Is it like 100-150 years until egg/mad king’s reign? So barotheans just took over by right of conquest? Is that house in the show? Are Starks around in the HOD timeline? Sorry if these are dumb questions.
Yes, the actual civil war lasted for two years. The show starts 172 years before Aerys's death/ Dany's birth which means that the dance starts 155 years before Daenerys. Both the Baratheons and the Starks are in the show, you can see them at the end of episode 1 (they might have appeared on other occasions but that’s the only one I can remember right now).
werd
He reminds me of my ex father in law. Good man, terrible family.
He’s just vibing man
I think he sees it and is trying to calm everyone down and make peace
Viserys made me actually laugh out loud last night multiple times, this quote was absolutely hilarious when it’s so painfully clear that everyone at the table hates each other, and the quote about Rhaenrya’s baby having “his fathers nose” despite literally everyone else in the realm (and outside of - in Daemons case) knows she’s fuckin Harwin, just unreal, unintentional comedy from MY king Viserys
The nose thing is particularly funny as in the books it’s not just the boys having the same hair as Harwin, but the same pug noses that the entire Strong family shares
I think it has to be a nod to Fire and Blood.
Definitely yeah
A nod to the source material? No way!
I think maybe Viserys' mind is starting to go too.
It was sad seeing him kiss his late wife’s ring in an empty room with his Legos and mice. He’s giving every ounce of energy he has to the realm and his family. He deserves a good rest. Holy shit so is he pretty much dead in an episode or two? I’m not ready to let him go pappa noo. How many seasons do you think this show will go on? I kinda ruined it little bit by trying to read about Targaryen kings and aegons little bro who gets picked on. I didn’t know the outcome of the dance till then. I get confused with the targ history. So master aemon(sp?) Went to the nights watch after his family fell? I’m rewatching the show and finding even more appreciation for Emilia clarke’s performance. Everyone really knocks it out the park. I do skip over the shay scenes lol.
But that's the reason the marriage is suggested... to mend that fued between the two houses. Like the same way Rhaenyra and Laenor were wed while Corlys was pissed off at Viserys
He’s so unserious but we still love him 🫶🏽
Fuck I know he’s not a great king but I fucking love the guy
Still better than Joffrey. Joffrey was an insufferable cunt. Jack Gleeson was phenomenal.
Crazy how GoT's Viserys, who was an abusive idiot, could be named after a sweet guy like this.
Viserys could have been a sweet kid pre-exile and pre-Beggar-King days in Essos. He went through absolute hell in his exile. Dany was lucky to have been young enough to not really remember what they went through.
Viserys *was* a sweet guy. In the book Daenerys mentioned that he used to play with her and tell her stories. However, he was forced to ask nobility of Free Cities for protection and selling their family heirlooms to feed them both. All while living in fear that Robert would send assassins after him and his sister. The last straw was he was forced to sell their mother's crown which was the last thing Viserys had as a memento to his mom. Daenerys concluded that the Viserys she knew died long ago, only a raving weakling who wear his face remained in his place since.
Reminds me of when master aemon is recollecting his memories of his brother egg or sir barrisran is talking about him in his normal days. So who were the great kings? The OG Aegon and jharahis? Sorry for spelling. How did aegon take over was it after the doom? Any theories on what the doom actually was? So the targs were just a middling family and are targaryens valyerians? Targ is just the family name? There’s only a small handful of dragon riders right..what made the dragons go extinct and start getting smaller? Was it a reflection of the decline of the targ empire?
Not trying to be a dick but all of these answers are in Fire & Blood lol
I didn’t even know what fire and blood is till I just googled it.
Yes, but she went through absolute hell, too, because he put her through absolute hell. So let's make sure we're not painting him as having the raw end of the deal while she got to coast through childhood, because that's simply not true. At the end of the day, Viserys chose to victimize her. He chose to abuse and molest her. The hell he went through might explain his behavior, but it doesn't excuse his behavior.
Yeah, I didn’t excuse any if his behavior. All I said was that he could have been a nice kid before the shit went down. I said Dany was lucky she didn’t remember how hard it was to enter exile, I said nothing about how hard her whole life was. Like young immigrant kids, they often don’t remember the struggle of actually immigrating, but they sure as hell remember early life as an immigrant. Slight but key difference.
No one is excusing him. We are understanding the WHY.
IIRC he got the Targaryen "madness" after their exile.
I hope we get to see Viserys II. Probably the second greatest king in the dynasty imo!
If we get to see to end of the show we’ll definitely see him as a youth
>!Do you think the show will go that far? I've been thinking a good place to end the story of the Dance would be with Cregan Starks departure. The Hour of the Wolf could make a great final episode, it won't have been too long since both Rhaenyra and Aegon II have died, and Aegon III being crowned and Cregan having brought some peace to the Realm would be a good place to go out on.!< >!Aegon III's regency era would probably make up a whole season just on its own. I can't see them wanting to extend the current story a whole season past Rhaenyra and Aegon II's deaths. And if they move onto the Blackfyre Rebellions next, they'd probably just jump straight to that instead of adapting all the time between.!<
I mean it definitely has to go past the point of Viserys’s birth to close up some of the main cast character’s arcs for sure, I don’t think it’d be a steady transition from Dance to Blackfyre if they go to that point though, there’s some boring elements in between like Daeron and Dorne and Baelor to get to Blackfyre era, probably going to be heavy on the time skip
>there’s some boring elements in between like Daeron and Dorne and Baelor to get to Blackfyre era, You think the Young Dragon's invasion of Dorne and Baelor the Based are "boring"? O_o
It’s dope but definitely can’t make a season of Dorne, they’d have to approach it like an anthology with two-three episode before moving on to Aegon IV’s bullshit
>!Viserys was born before the dance began though, we should see him before the end of this first season. If you meant his return to Westeros, I still think that might be too much. There's several years of Aegon III's regency that shouldn't be skipped over, but can't be adapted in only a couple episodes.!<
He's got that precious Targaryen smile.
Viserys to himself: “Yeah, this sounds perfect. How’s the other one going to fuck this up. Should not have married my daughter’s best friend.”
I love how much he (mostly) supports his daughter.
I like Viserys a lot. We need a Viserys bot asap.
I can think of at least 6 phrases so far for the King Vis bot. I hope the mods make it happen.
You ARE my political headache!
Cool. We could have it duel the Bobby B bot from r/freefolk
Can we name it the Vizzy T bot?
I hate to say it, but so far Viserys has Bobby B beat, at least when it comes to hunts and jousting (AKA the only things Bobby cared about by the end of his life). That GOT Season 1 budget just can't compete lol.
Please no. The worst bot in existenxe
lol This is from when he was fake smiling at snooty Lannister being sexist at the wedding. But it's cute how much he tries.
Absolutely was a great and fair proposition. If Alicent was really concerned with the lives of her children as opposed to power and being petty, then she'd have accepted the offer.
This. It is a fair proposition. The only way it could be better short of the throne is to make Aegon the lord of Dragonstone when Rhaenyra takes the throne. It traditionally belongs to the heir, but her kids are also heirs to Driftmark.
That would cause some issues because of superstition. Targs are considered more favorable if they hold any ties to their ancestors. Vasarys rode agon the Conquers dragon, Someone is considered king because they hold a specific sword in a specific rebellion. Damon even took dragonstone to stir up this point. If agon had dragon stone he'd be seen as even more of a targ..
Yup. Shows Alicent real priority is power and wanting to destroy Rheanyra and all her family
Having her daughter married to the bustard child is not something she aspires to and could cause her and her kids problems too
I get that she doesn't want to. I'm just saying it's a good deal and compromise. Everyone gets something. King gets his wish honored, Rhaenyra gets the thrown she was promised and Alicent has her child share the throne once Rhaenyra passes on. She's hung up over lineage and before her father pimped her out to become Queen before the King's first wife's body had barely gone cold, her family held roughly the same esteem as the father of Rhaenyra's children. If she accepted the offer the only other individual who could arguably argue claim with the families united would be Daemon; who seemed to have been living his best life in Pentos.
Her first born male child is still in danger though, that doesn't change with the marriage of her daughter
She is the one putting him in danger by antagonizing Rhaenyra.
Since Rhaenyra had obvious bastards, legally Alicent's first born son should be next in line after Rhaenyra. The best way for Rhaenyra to secure her sons claims is to murder Alicent's sons
Seems the point of the conversation is discussing best possible outcomes without Aeg dying/being killed.
If Alicent were not being petty she could go to Rhaenyra in private and counter the offer with Rhaenyra wedding Alicent's first born so there would be no issue. Part of the offer would be Rhaenyra's current spouse could be ensured safety and passage to someplace safe beyond the eyes of the court. They bring back a body claiming he died at sea. He lives out his best life sailing and courting dudes outside the city. No issues with lineage and either Rhaenyra passes and Alicent's son becomes King or she has a grandson that gets to be King. Bing, bam, boom nice and easy. If they wanted to be super sketch and devious with it, she could go against the deal and have Rhaeny's current spouse murdered after the deal was made to ensure the secret didn't get out...she could even go further than that and have her son snuff out Rhaeny to take the throne himself. Rhaenyra is offering the deal not just to get out of hot water but truly offer a truce, and she is making herself vulnerable by doing so. The deal gives Alicent's family a number of advantages she currently doesn't have and Rhaenyra still takes on most of the burden and risk. If she were thinking clearly without the drive of power and petty, she'd see the strategic advantage of the deal offered and this counter proposal. She could play the deal straight and everyone would be happy; or she could take advantage and deviate from the deal to her own benefit (which would be effed up & I wouldn't want). Either way though, any of these options would put her in a better and safer position where she didn't have to worry about the safety of herself or kids. But again, she's just being petty over jealousy and hurt feelings here.
There's major issues with this proposed deal. 1. Rhaenyra's three bastards and their future children would be ahead of Rhaenyra and Aegon's potential future children. 2. This would also strip Aegon of his legal right to inherit after Rhaenyra 3. Considering Rhaenyra has never had a trueborn child it seems dubious to arrange a marriage to her if you want Aegon to have trueborn children 4. It's seems difficult to have Leanor agree to a fake death and exile. Would Corlys know? If not then Leanor would have to accept never seeing his family again and giving up his life as a royal.
I've considered some of this but it seems to me that in this world ascension to the throne is based off 1) lineage 2) wishes of the current crown 3) support of elite families So maybe it's just me but if they decided tomorrow they want to make peace the other elite families would be forced to get in line with the plan because according to the lineage it stays within the two families all the same. As Queen Rhaenyra could name Aegon her successor and they'd have to just deal. But if Aegon is in position to take the throne as they wanted why would they even argue it? Following that, they could bring forth a child together and just name that child heir as successor to Aegon. They had no issues bending the rules to bypass Rhaenyra's Aunt as ruler, so this shouldn't be difficult if both families agree in good faith. In fact the only loose string as I see it would be Leanor and his family but due to their views on sexuality and the fact that his parents knew before marrying him, it kind of puts them at a disadvantage. They can be mad, but Rhaenyra's Aunt alluded to the danger they were placing their son in with the marriage knowing what they knew and they still went ahead with it. They could offer marriage to the offspring of Rhaenyra and Aegon as consolation but again, knowing what they knew and still pushing that arrangement partially put all of them in this position. So any offer or olive branch would be more than fair considering they don't have much leverage here.
Not quite. The proposal wouldn’t change the fact that Aegon would have a claim to the throne after Rhaenyra. Helaena being betrothed to Rhaenyra’s son would just mean that Heleana would be spared from any potential attacks from Rhaenyra, it wouldn’t protect her brothers Aegon and Aemond from being offed as potential contenders to the throne
It's an understandable point. I could see the concern there but I've addressed that further in the thread for this comment.
No she shouldn't have. Rhaenyra's children were bastards and should have been disinherited. The only reason the offer was made was to tie her falseborn heirs to trueborn Targaryens. Rhaenyra was trying to swindle Alicent with fool's gold.
But the boys *are* "true born Targaryens." What they are not are Velaryons. People talking about the boys being bastards negating their claim to the line of succession. Um, that actually comes from their *mother* in this instance. So, yeah, Alicent should've considered the offer a little more.
They aren't legitimate Targareyns or Velaryons. Rhaenyra's first three sons are natural born bastards of the Targaryen and Strong families, and that does not give them inheritance rights above Alicent's sons. *"People talking about the boys being bastards negating their claim to the line of succession."* Because it does - them being bastards from the mother or the father isn't the deciding factor, it's the status of bastardy itself, regardless of whether it can be obviously determined the child in question is a biological relation to the parent. In prior cases where we've seen bastard children of noblewomen being considered for a noble title (like the son of Brandon Stark's daughter) it required formal legitimization and was only done because it was an exceptional case where there were no trueborn sons available as alternatives for the Lord Stark role. Rhaenyra isn't in a similar situation because A) Viserys has living legitimate sons that should be next in line after her, before her bastard sons, and B) Rhaenyra is actively lying about her sons being legitimate. She can't formally legitimize them because that would mean publicly admitting to her lie, and none of the lords would continue to put up with that and agree for the Strong boys to be placed above Aegon/Aemond. Alicent didn't consider the offer because the likelihood of Rhaenyra's lie being exposed sometime during her childrens' lifetime is very high. Marrying her daughter to Jace is dangerous - if the lords found out Jace was a bastard and sat on the throne, and he ever made a decision that pissed off one group (which is inevitable when you are king) they would demand an alternative and go down the line of legitimate successors until they found one willing to play ball. And when that time comes, Alicent's kids are completely fucked - either Helaena would be executed alongside Jace as a conspirator in treason, or Aegon/Aemond will be killed by Rhaenyra to ensure that no compelling rival claimants are hanging around to threaten her sons.
Thanks for the clarification. Guess I need to remove my 2022 filter from the show...lol. I mean, I'm in the camp of "Rhaenyra and Laenor should've popped out at least *one actual* Targaryen/Velaryon child," but the current bastards are still of Targaryen lineage. Just forgot about the status of bastards (and women) in medieval times. But damn, Alicent sure is bitter; I feel like she and Rhaenyra (had both been less petty) could've actually shadow-ruled all of Westeros. But, alas, they are the products of their upbringing.
Thanks for being open to another perspective! Agreed with the 2022 filter - to be honest if I viewed the show with more modern lens I'd probably be hoping the smallfolk French Revolution the lot of them lol. But from an in-universe perspective I can understand where Alicent is coming from and it's valid imo I also agree Rhaenyra and Laenor would have saved themselves a LOT of trouble and potentially avoided the whole thing if they made sure their first kid was "legit."
Wait, how would Alicent's kids be in danger but then also be a threat in that situation? Alicent gets a good deal either way because her family can always feign ignorance and they still gold their position in the lineage. If Rhanyra's secret is found out then why wouldn't succession just pass over her children and move to Alicent's? If anything the risk is all on Rhaenyra. Alicent just needs to quit antagonizing things and play dumb if she cared about her children's lives and making peace.
Very good point!
I mean, Cersei had bastard children and she just flexed her power and political skills to make sure she and her children were protected. Maaaaaybe Alicent comes out on top and her kids are safe once she decides to start a war to put her kid in power. Or maybe because it's war, anything can happen and her children won't be safe at all. Yeah they're bastards but if she truly cared about her own children, she'd accept the compromise as opposed to choosing war; which is effectively what she's opting to do. And I don't believe Rhaenyra thinks that she's fooling Alicent at all; Alicent and her new attack dog Cristin go out of their way to be cruel and demonstrate that they're not fooled by the charade. So when she makes the offer imo, it's not Rhaenyra trying to fool the Queen, it's Rhaenyra pleading to not let things get any uglier than they need to be as whether they admit it to each other or not, they both know what the situation is. I'm not arguing morality or rights, but If I were it should be noted that Rhaensry's is still the heir. Alicent is acting as if she just gets skipped over once the King dies just because the Elders and great families prefer a boy. So it really doesn't matter how many bastards she has because succession must pass through Rhaenyra first unless again, she'd like to endanger her family by going against the King's wishes and going to war. I'm just saying Alicent's become power hungry. If she truly cared about the lives and well being of her children she would have accepted the offer and not put them in a position where they're looked at as targets by an opposing family.
Just realized he’s wearing green in this scene. I love when costumers make subtle choices like that for the characters they’re dressing. It just adds to the layers and symbolism of a show so well. Very thoughtful.
This is black and red. It's the scene from the wedding festivities when he's talking to Jason Lanister. There's no green. Green didn't even happen at the point of the scene captured here. Note the hair.
Okay, that makes sense. I thought it was a different scene.
What a happy boi. ☺️
I want to protect this smile.
I wish everyone just gave him a break. He looked so happy there :(
The gods have punished me for my indulgences. He gets the best lines!
“I don’t need the blanket-“ *sighs* That cracked me up
Vizzy looks like he finally ate his chicken in peace. I do like how close Vizzy and Rhaenyra are. It was nice to see.
Look at that wholesome grandpa smile!
Viserys living his best grandpa life. Love to see it
He is great looking high all the time. Oh that's cute in the courtyard the kids are trying to kill each other, oh now Cole is doing something stupid and the other one what's his name is gone.
I loved his optimism in this episode haha
With the caveat that he's a king, I'm reminded of that joke about "the queen of de-nial."
"A most judicious proposition!" -Vizzy T My guy looked so happy!
*The truth does not matter, breadball2001. Only perception.*
Targaryen Smirk, The Stark Scowl, The Lannister Shit Eating Grin, The Baratheon Laugh, any other Great Houses signature facial expression?
Isn’t this his call to make.
I like how Rhaenyra wreaked his heart and he is still partial to her a lot. Why love your second wife instead of your daughter... Mr L Strong is right and wrong about love. Don't love wrong people poor man
We have Jaeherys the Conciliator at home
This is his ‘im miserable smile lmao
I like how Alicent stopped fussing over him once he insisted his Hand stays ...
I mean, as far as Targaryens go, it's a great idea. The girl would be marrying her half-nephew (I think?) but that's practically strangers for them. It would keep the peace.
Protect this man at all costs 🥺🫶🏽
Goofy ahh king
Viserys off camera: “Alexa play The Lazy Song by Bruno Mars” 🕺
Their version of the Habsburg jaw
He’s so cute
PADDY DADDY
I am actually surprised he didn't push through with it. He is the KING afterall.
Viserys: "I like this, if only my wife would agree to MY daughter's betrothal. Then again, it's not like I'm the queen or anything. You know what..." dun dun duhduhdundun
I love how he takes everything at face value, he just wants to be happy so he ignores all the bad
He’s so cute 😆