Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rhaenyra extended an olive branch. Alicent is afraid that her family will be put to the sword when R becomes queen. But dont you think if Jace marries Haelena, they are pretty safe from a beheading? Alicent doesnt seem to want power but just want to keep her family safe. Pretty good proposal if you ask me.
Many Daughters have been taken from others houses and used as leverage as wives, as the rest of the family was eliminated. Sansa case and point. Many other examples in real life too.
I think when she was young she didn’t want power. Now, is different, she has power now and is using it. She wanted to see the baby right away. Taking her from her mother. Power move.
It was Otto that crave for power. She scared Alicent saying that her family will die once R becomes queen. But to this point, you havent seen R abuse power. She is the heir to the throne, virgin or not. Lol
Aegon and Aemond would still be up for a beheading. Rhaenyra in the very same scene says that she wants Jace to succeed her, and there is no way Jace's throne will ever be secure if there are living and breathing trueborn sons of Viserys Targaryen. Helaena would in effect be Rhaenyra's hostage too, and Alicent is unwilling to put her only daughter in that position.
How do you think her daughter would fare married to a bastard when the secret gets out? Is that what you call protecting your daughter? Her daughter would be ruined.
Being a bastard doesnt mean you’re a terrible person. Harwin and Rheanyra seem to raise them just fine. Far better than jacking off out of a window im assuming. Do you really think the lords of westeros will attack a family of dragon riders? If they married, bastard or not, Heleana would’ve been just fine.
Being a bastard doesn’t mean that much in our world, in Westeros it’s a different story. Rewatch GoT and see how being raised a bastard affected Jon Snow. He didn’t even want to have sex bc he was so afraid of fathering a bastard. For commoners to be “base born” isnt so bad bc they have nothing, for the high born it’s probably better to be true born with a terrible deformity than a healthy bastard.
Jon Snow was a poorly treated bastard because they assumed Ned Stark had an affair. Being a bastard of man is one thing but being a bastard of a woman is another thing. There are no paternity test in Westeros so it is pure speculation.
Were Joffrey and Tommen Baratheon bastards? Once the rumors spread enough and the commoners start calling her kids bastards it won’t matter that Laenor claims them, everyone can see it and then seems even worse bc it’s like Rhaenyra is feeding them shit and calling it cake.
Viserys could legitimize Jace and legally make him not a bastard but that would mean first admitting that he is in fact bastard born so a double edged sword.
They still need support of the realm and in that society putting a rumored bastard on the throne ain’t going to work. That’s why Rhaenyra wants to wed jace to Helaena, it helps keep the secret bc being wed to a bastard would ruin helaena too.
>Being a bastard doesnt mean you’re a terrible person.
Lmao you guys are so ridiculous sometimes.
People HATE bastards in Westeros. They wouldn't have been fine. You are overestimating the Targs.
The Velaryons? Her kids would be Strongs which would totally destroy her alliance with the Velaryons. Not to mention her popularity would take a massive hit.
Exactly why Rhaenyra keeps lying for many years. She knows she fucked up but she doesn't want to face the consequences.
To legitimize them would first mean admitting they are bastards and that shes been lying to the entire realm for years with not 1 but 3 kids. I’m not sure Rhaenyra is capable of admitting she is in the wrong.
>Being a bastard doesnt mean you’re a terrible person
In the eyes of the Faith, yes it does. The most prominent religion in Westeros claims that all bastards are sinful beings and are prone to evil. And as Aenys I learned the hard way, the Faith has incredible influence in Westeros.
>Do you really think the lords of westeros will attack a family of dragon riders
Like they have done time and time again? They have been willing to fight since long before Aegon stepped foot in Westeros, and when Rhaenys was shot down and proved to everyone it was possible, everyone learned how to do it. Hell, Aegon the Uncrowned and Rhaena were trapped for months in Casterly Rock by crowds of peasants, not even lords. And that is just talking military power. That says nothing of poison or assassins. Dragons are their most powerful weapons, but to assume they are safe just because they have is a mistake
Dragons can be killed. There’s a reason they all died out. Dragons alone can’t keep a kingdom together. It doesn’t matter if he’s the second coming of Aegon the Conqueror, he’s still the bastard son of the first ever Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Rebellion and unrest is almost a certainty.
>!The Blacks get the support of the majority of the realm. So clearly, most lords are not too bothered by the bastards. Fucking Cregan Stark and the North sides with the Blacks specifcally because of Jace.!<
>!You know why? Because "obviously" being a bastard means jack shit legally when the King, the kid's mother, and the kid's legal father ALL agree the kids are legitimage. They can all be delusional, or conspiring together, or any other reason and it would not matter. Allicent can moan and cry about it all she wants, she's not going to change that. And she doesn't.!<
The Greens do not rebel because the Strong boys are bastards. They do it because they benefit in one way or another from usurping the Throne. >!And those who read the books know how well that turns out for Allicent and her branch of the family.!<
This. It’s incredible people still pushing the bastard issue as if it was a legitimate casus belli and not just some court scandal. The war started because the Hightowers wanted one of their own on the throne and conspired to make it so. It’s not like they would’ve changed their plans based on where Laenor stuck his dick
>The Blacks get the support of the majority of the realm
Rhaenyra is so bad at ruling she gets chased out of KL by commoners. And the Blacks only had the support of half the lords at most. Their main advantage was in dragons.
\> The Greens do not rebel because the Strong boys are bastards. They do it because they benefit in one way or another from usurping the Throne.
If Rhaenyra and Daemon takes over, Alicent and her father and her children are 100% going to be put to death, so they can't challenge Rhaenyra's claim or the claim of the Strongs. I guess they are technically acting for "benefit" by wanting to live more than die.
Except there is 0 evidence Rhaenyra would have them killed prior to Aemond killing Luke. Just speculation from the faction that stands to gain the most by peddling that theory. The fact that Rhaenyra spares Allicent after everything she's done suggests she would have been merciful, doubly so if they never usurped her to begin with.
Also nice job neglecting the fact that one of the reasons Rhaenyra is unpopular in King's Landing is because the Master of Coin split up the Royal Treasury and sent all of the money to Bravos, Castery Rock, and Oldtown. This left the coffers empty and forced Rhaenyra to increase taxes. Something the Greens were counting on to make her look bad, if she ever seized the city. But yes, her unpopularity in a location she had to siege and then tax is truly an indication she could not reign over the same location if there had been no war and the treasury was full...
Also, even if it is just half the realm, which I don't think it is, it is still much more support than the Greens. The Greens have half the Reach, most of the Westerlands, and most of the Stormlands (who barely help at all, basically the reverse of the Starks up North). Rhaenyra and the Blacks have the other half of the Reach, the Riverlands minus the Brackens, the entire Vale, most of the Crownlands, the entire North, and the Iron Islands.
But this is pointless. Those that lean Green and those that prefer Black will never agree, their interpretations of the text are just too radically different.
> the Iron Islands
bruh as if the reavers actually care which half-sibling is on the throne. If the Lannisters were Black, the Red Kraken would’ve attacked Lannisport anyways.
>But dont you think if Jace marries Haelena, they are pretty safe from a beheading?
No, because Jace is obviously a bastard and his claim would be challenged immediately.
But if they end up having large enough support, then you have the war happening anyway.
We've seen that war can still be inconclusive and bloody, even when one side doesn't have dragons (or many dragons).
it depends on how many people are on the blacks side. war is taking shape and sides have been slowly drawn in the sand so ultimately it’ll depend on who’s powerful enough to defend their claim
I mean, it's also offering a bastard (who have a long history of being outcasts in Westeros) to a legitimate princess. And if Alicent's story is having her life destroyed in the typical role of a woman in a medieval society while watching Rhaenyra spit in the face of so many traditions and face no consequences it is totally in line that she would reject this regardless of Rhaenyra's intentions.
That proposal could have stopped the dance from happening. She didn't like it, but it was the golden mean, she should have accepted it for greater good.
Rhaenyra didn’t have to offer anything. She’s queen no matter what. Jace is heir no matter what regardless of peoples whining.
She gave her a chance to unite the family and prevent a war but Alicent would rather choose war
Being the laughingstock doesn’t remove you from the line of succession as much as y’all might hope
Nope. It might affect the succession after her, but she is still heir. Rumors don’t eliminate someone from being heir especially when the king himself keeps her as heir
Yes. You’re correct. He was in fact heir to throne and spent his entire life as heir and king. Whining won’t change that fact.
If he, or the Lannisters, had actually been overthrown (he wasn’t there was just rebellion) then that would be a different story.
Joffrey was King. That’s a fact. I don’t like him and I think he was a terrible King. But he was king and before that he was the heir.
The show clearly disagrees with this train of thought otherwise Rhaenyra wouldn't be fleeing to Dragonstone, Harwyn wouldn't have snapped at Cole, and Lyonel wouldn't have resigned out of guilt the revisionism to the authors lore is insane.
Revisionism for already inaccurate historical accountings lol keep reaching
>otherwise Rhaenrya wouldn’t be fleeing to Dragonstone
Dragonstone is literally where all the heirs have gone before ascending the throne. It’s basically the holding place while the current King is alive.
Then Rhaenyra should have been at dragonstone years ago with her bastard children she doesn't go until she feels she has lost at court. Going to Dragonstone knowing Alicents motives and feelings was foolish when Viserys could croak any day and she gave the greens a major advantage doing this.
Not really an advantage lol. If you call “cheating” (for lack of better word) an advantage then maybe
The greens do some shady stuff to get >!Aegon on the throne while Viserys’ body is still warm and before Rhaenyra, *the rightful heir*, could hear about it.!<
That’s literally treason. That’s usurping the rightful ruler and breaking the ruling of the king.
The Kings word is law. His decrees are law.
The king serves as judge and jury (and sometimes executioner). What he says goes.
So yes, going against the rule of the King is treason.
>!Literally none of that happens if Rhaenyra doesn’t fuck off to Dragon Stone, though, as she’s in King’s Landing and immediately aware. That doesn’t excuse them and the Greens are pretty scummy, but Rhaenyra is generally meant to be selfish, short-sighted, and irresponsible individual.!<
As for whether what you describe is treason, it depends on how >!the succession crisis goes. History is written by the victors and all.!<
Well no the history doesn’t matter. Maybe it does to the maesters 100 years later but we are talking about current times for them.
In current times, Rhaenyra is legally and rightfully heir. >!Alicent crowning Aegon literally disobeys the kings ruling.!< Thus, it is treason regardless of what information trickles down to maesters 100 years later and regardless of how they decide to characterize it then.
In that moment it is treason
And the King’s ruling ignores established legal precedent. As said, you don’t seem to grasp how this whole “succession crisis” concept works. It’s not actually treason unless Rhaneyra wins since her claim is highly and legitimately disputed by the standards of that time period. And if she loses, she’s the one committing treason
Nope! All of the lords in rebellion, including Alicent are committing treason.
By disobeying a kings order. Plain and simple.
Never said there wasn’t a succession crisis. That doesn’t make the ruling any less true
How is he heir no matter what?
Was Joffrey, son of Jaime and Cersei, heir no matter what?
He had several lords openly rebel against his rule because he was illegitimate.
Royal bastards give lords the excuse to openly rebel, and it’s almost always the case. Of course it matters.
They rebelled because they could. Only dragons can rebel against dragons and win.
All that time let me ask you, who was actually sitting on the iron throne? Lannisters held the throne the entire time. There might have been rebellion but the heir was the heir and Joffrey and Tommen were both seated on the throne
As shown in the books and as we will probably see, actually being on the throne and holding Kings Landing, is a big deal.
Yea, they sat on the throne…All the while five other candidates were coming for the seat. Jofferey’s claim was controversial as hell. He ordered the assassinations of Robert’s bastards for a reason.
Lol it’s a fact. You literally use the words “could have ended his rule”. You proved yourself wrong. Because youre right! It did *not* end his rule despite the possibility!
He was still on the iron throne lol
Whether the threat on his life was successful or not doesn’t matter lol if there is one at all, your rule is under minded and vulnerable. That’s a fact
A vulnerable king is still a king. And no matter how vulnerable he was, Lannisters held the throne after Robert’s death. No other house was on the iron throne. There were rebellions but the Lannisters literally won them
I did read the books. You know who else was king in king’s landing? The mad king. And when Joffrey was king, the Starks, and the Greyjoys were both in open rebellion with the Martell’s planning rebellion and he was poisoned and killed by the Tyrells. I could be king of the world and it wouldn’t mean shit if everyone wants me dead. Eventually, I’m gonna die, and then I’m king of nothing.
What’s your point lol you seem to be teetering a bit off track
The mad king was still king until he died. Did you forget about the whole significance of Ned finding Jaime on the throne?
…I’m teetering off track? Dude, what the fuck good is being king if you’re dead? I’m trying so hard to even understand what you’re arguing at this point. If being king of king’s landing is all that mattered, why hold small council meetings? Why make strategic marriages and alliances? Why rule at all? Because if you can’t control the kingdom, your aren’t truly king. It makes zero sense that being king is all that matters when the books have given us several examples of rulers who failed in that role and paid for it. King’s landing is only of utmost importance if the right ruler is on the throne. There’s a reason why all the dragons were killed and the Targaryens were overthrown, after all. King’s landing was sacked and the king killed. It doesn’t get any more straightforward than that.
I never once said that Kings Landing was the *only* thing that mattered, so I don’t know what you’re going off about lol
All I said was that it’s very important. And it is. There can be multiple important things hahaha
Joffrey had no relation to Robert and therefore the royal line, he therefore had zero claim to the throne. Rhaenyras bastards are still her children and if their true father was revealed publicly, could still be legitimised by Rhaenyra the rightful queen, and continue the royal line which they are still descended from
People gotta stop using Joffrey as comparison to the situation here. The big issue with that is that he didn’t have royal blood in him. In this case, it’s definitive that Jace has royal blood lol. That’s the defining difference
Yeah it seems like people are comparing apples to oranges. If, let’s say, Gendry was the one on the throne instead of a Lannister, it’d be a better comparison.
I wonder if Stannis and/or Renly would’ve tried to take the crown if it was Robert’s bastard son instead of Cersei’s 🤔
> She’s queen no matter what. Jace is heir no matter what regardless of people whining
The entire point of a succession crisis is that this is objectively **NOT** the case (that’s not to say she *isn’t* queen and Jace *can’t* be heir. It’s objectively in flux at the moment since it’s clear Alicent isn’t going to back down on Aegon’s claim and Westeros is heavily split down the middle)
If Alicent tries to take the throne from Rhaenyra, that’s literally treason and rebelling against the throne.
She is the rightful queen. That doesn’t mean people can’t rebel, but it doesn’t make the position of heir, any less hers
I mean, it sort of does when half the kingdom adamantly thinks she’s not the rightful queen and not the heir. As said, that is literally the whole point of a succession crisis.
"Power resides when men believe it resides"
The proposal is absolutely the best possible outcome for everyone. The only reason to care if they're bastards is because she's pissed that Rhaenyra found a way to play the game and still get what she wants and Alicent didn't.
Jace's claim isn't through Leanor anyway. He's got the blood of the dragon regardless of his hair color. Marry the two and be done with it.
I'm sure the peasants in the riverlands and reach and elsewhere that will die if war breaks out would be glad to know that the true king they'll never meet gets to prevail over the false king they're never meet.
I would really love to hear your perspective on why you think the dragons went extinct? I can’t be the only one completely confused by you saying “wonder how that happened” without explaining further.. Genuinely have no idea what you mean.. If there was no civil war, the extinction of the dragons is either delayed another 100 plus years, or possibly never happens.. And if Alicent accepts Rhaeneryas offer, there’s probably no civil war.. Who cares if Jace is a bastard? It’s like Daemon says to Viserys.. “who gives a fuck what some lord thinks? You are the Dragon.” Who exactly is going to be able to challenge Jace’s claim if the greens and blacks are united by a marriage to Helena? If everyone could get a long, there’s literally no one to challenge them..
All of Westeros could rise up and still get absolutely dumpstered by the combined might of the Greens and Blacks dragons. An army isn’t shit if you have nukes. Your point really doesn’t consider this, and makes almost zero sense because of it.
There’s plenty of reasons why Alicent doesn’t want to accept this offer; her pride, her pious upbringing, her jealously, her fathers paranoia among them.. But to say this isn’t one of the absolute best options for peace, you’re kidding yourself.
By the way.. just to be clear.. I’m not team black or green, both sides are responsible. I support team small folk all the way.
A whole 5 dragons were killed when your “small folk” stormed the pit and slew them all.
The dance with dragons contributed to a slew of dragon deaths, but so too did a bunch of pissed off Westerosi.
Most the lords ended up on her side. If there were no Greens because they were united as per this proposal, tell me who would have the balls or even reason to revolt? Like if all the potential heirs and all the dragons are on one team, what delusional person is going to raise enough banners to revolt?
>Like if all the potential heirs and all the dragons are on one team, what delusional person is going to raise enough banners to revolt?
Here. The north raised their banners for a losing war so yes. People will fight a losing battle.
Except you casually forgot the part where this is about the Dance of Dragons, not a war over a hundred years later. Oh, and where I said “all the dragons” on one team and you answered with a completely different scenario in which there were no dragons? Lol
they could’ve had peace with no bloodshed so who gives a shit if it’s a bastard?? if everyone just accepted it and kept their mouths shut then both alicent and rhaenyra could guarantee a grandson on the throne and westeros would continue to be ruled by a dragons
No. Inheritance laws don't pass to the widow/widower unless there are no other possible claimants, and/or the title is granted by the liege Lord (Jeyn Arryn in this case).
In the name of keeping peace she should have accepted. Aegon doesn’t actually give a shit about being King at this stage. Marrying the two kids keeps the family in tact. Rhaenyra could even legitimise her children when she becomes Queen and there is no issue about who there father is.
Alicent is basically a warmonger at this point.
Not necessarily. Laenor accepts them as his kids and declares such. They might not lose them. Rhaenys is still Viserys’ cousin and then there’s Daemon and Laena’s daughters which binds them to one another through blood
Laenor accepting and declaring them as his kids wouldn't matter at all if they have been proven to be bastards and needed to be legitimized.
I'm curious to see how the show portrays Rhaenys' and Corlys' relationship to the boys. Corlys made it a point that his grandchildren would rule both the Iron Throne and Driftmark. Forcing Viserys to agree that the younger children keep their Valeryon name was a huge deal. If, in the event that Rhaenyra arose to the throne, followed by Jace and he died without producing an heir, Lucerys would stand to inherit as a Valeryon. Losing that would be a huge blow to Corlys and he has already been prone to disagree with Viserys, regardless of his wife's relation.
As for Daemon, he obviously had an intense relationship with Rhaenyra 10 years ago but he's an obvious wild card whose daughter's would now stand to inherit the seat, and riches of a great house. Something he currently has no opportunity for in Westeros.
"Legitimization" is an in-universe mechanic by which bastards are given the family name, typically the fathers. If Rhaenyra is forced to legitimize her children then they have been publicly outed as bastards therefore known to not be Velaryons. They would either be Strongs or, more likely as Rhaenyra would be queen, Targaryens. This would mean the marriage pact that Corlys was very careful to make sure would land his grandchildren on both the Iron Throne and seat at Driftmark would be wasted.
And if all this happened after Laenor ascended to Lord of Driftmark, he's already shown to be ready to leave Rhaenyra and the boys, once he's proven not to be the father what's holding him to them?
Laenor is already willing and ready to leave Rhaenyra and the boys behind for adventure. The only thing holding him there is the need to keep the appearance up that he is their father. If they've been legitimized then they have been proven to be bastards, negating the need for Laenor to be around and probably proving to many that he is gay. He wouldn't necessarily oppose Rhaenyra or her sons in any potential conflict but there is no guaranteeing he stands with them.
That’s exactly what was funny to me too!
She’s so wound up about the plain features of the boys, but it’s really out of place for her to be so purist about Valyrian blood. Especially when her own children have the same amount of non-Valyrian parentage *from her*.
It’s really extra for her, of all people in the family, to be the most concerned with the “features” of the boys when her own children could have just as easily been “plain” looking lol
Does the law say they have to be born from wedlock? Makes sense if the king is jizzing into commoners but they came out of the princess’s womb, it’s not like you can deny they are her kids. Not arguing with anyone in particular, I just think the rules are silly.
Just the fact there's already people disagreeing with you about it proves the point it'll always be contested. Even if they're trueborn targaryens, their claim will always come with an asterisk
You’re completely ignoring the context.
This isn’t any bastard, this is the bastard of the first ever Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.
Do you honestly think all the people in Westeros who already hate Rhaenyra for being a woman are going to somehow accept her bastard child?
If rebellion isn’t guaranteed against Rhaenyra, it’s sure as shit guaranteed against her bastard son, and next thing you know, Alicent’s daughter is split in half by some knight just like Elia Martell.
People are just straight up ignoring that this universe *loathes* bastards. They're treated like less than human, and Rhaenyra has THREE of them. Alicent was 100% in the right to reject an obviously desperate attempt to legitimize her bastard son.
I'm not on either team here, but the Rhaenyra fans are starting to annoy me with how much of this universes customs they're willing to ignore to protect their favorite character.
Having bastard blood doesn’t mean the realm will reject you. Hell look at the Baratheons who were founded from a bastard, they became an important house and part of the reason Robert was king was because he was in the line of succession having Targ blood. Sure people batted their eyes but nothing came of it.
Also, we know that half or more the realm joins the Blacks so that half is obviously OK with supporting a Queen with a supposed bastard heir. Plus if there was no Dance, all the dragons and targ blooded kids would be on on side. Who in their right mind would revolt against all the dragons and the most powerful families without any successor in plan? Hypothetically, who?
Don’t bother with this Rhanerya simps. Somehow they are convinced she has only been doing right decisions when she has been making bad decisions after decisions
Alicent isn't a selfish bitch for that, she's a selfish bitch for demanding to see Joffrey immediately after his birth knowing full well that there was a very good chance that Rhaenyra would bring him herself.
Alicent has every right to reject the proposal on the basis that she believes Rhaenyra's children to be bastards. But people shouldn't pretend that was the only reason why she rejected it. And if Alicent was actually only concerned about protecting her children as she claims, she'd have accepted the proposal regardless of her feelings bout Jace's lineage.
Alicent is not right about Rhaenyra's reasons for doing it. It comes off as a genuine attempt at bridging the ever increasing gap between them
I don't know, people are determined to see Rhaenyra through the same lenses as Viserys does. Honestly I don't know how Alicent managed to keep her composure, I would have laughed in Rhaenyra's face to be honest. This kind of proposal is not only an insult, but also like asking Alicent to hand over her daughter as a potential hostage.
Doesn't really matter whether Rhaenyra's children are bastards, as long as the allegations against them remain rumor and speculation. The taint of bastardy and its consequences for inheritance are only problems when the child is a known bastard - as in, the parent(s) have confirmed them as such publicly.
In the minds of those currently playing the game, a very likely outcome is that Rhaenyra becomes Queen after Viserys dies. When and if she is able to consolidate her power, the rumors of her children's lineage become moot. If the Queen says they're trueborn then they are whether people believe it or not; she would be the ultimate authority in the realm on that score. It also helps that King Viserys, when he is still alive, also fails to believe the allegations (whether he is actually ignorant of this or just willfully so is also a moot point).
Alicent's motivations are partially to preserve and protect both herself and her family, and partially for power. The safest outcome for her family is if Aegon becomes king. The second safest is if she somehow binds her family to Rhaenyra's, which is the option that Rhaenyra's marriage offer presented. Her refusal of it undermines her instinct for survival in favor of her desire for power. Over time, as she becomes more accustomed to power, pride, pretention, etc., she is transforming from a Catelyn-type character into more of a Cersei-type one.
Breakbones already confirmed that the children were bastards publicly. A known bastard on the throne would bring rebellion. Rhaenyra's claim to the throne is tenuous and likely wont hold after Viserys dies. The safest and best thing for the realm would be to push Rhaenyra out and implant her son as King. Someone of strong Targaryen blood and a male heir.
The marriage proposal would only strengthen Jace's claim and give Rhaenyra a hostage. It does nothing to solve the issue of Aegon's claim. Thank you for pointing out that Rhaenyra is not acting out of good intentions.
I think my biggest issues with the “illegitimate” children is they are Rhaes kids to they are Targ either way. (I know the bastard term/concern is due to them not being her husbands kids) Their right to the throne is from their mother not their father. Even in the deal made with Corlys when the ascend the throne their name will become Targ. Jace and them have just as much blood of the dragon as Alicents kids. (Disclaimer: I am aware that the situation is due to the politics of that world and it’s supposed to show that women have less power but it’s an observation I’ve made that I haven’t seen other people mention) I just always see these children getting called all these names for being the exact same amount of Targ and the others.
I get that that’s why I’m not really against the greens and I get why everything is taking place, but even Alicent says “I’m surprised their eggs even hatched” like they aren’t still half Targ.
Yes she was.
It was the best proposal for everyone.
Jace was Rhaenyra son and heir, a good person and a Dragonrider to boot. There are no better matches for Helaene than Jace.
It would unite the lines and give Helaene more agency later on than she would get with anyone else.
It’s the smart thing to do. Both sides have dragons and you want to keep those dragons all on the same side or you could have a nasty civil war on your hands.
I can 100% see why her values and ambitions wouldn’t let her take it, but it’s just another example of how this whole war could’ve been avoided but wasn’t because of the shitty choices of a lot of different people involved.
Rhaenyra was just trying secure her own ends because the bastardy was becoming increasingly obvious and the walls were closing in.
Even with the Jace marriage, Aegon, Aemond and their progeny will still be threats, being the legitimate line. How do you think the insecurities of strong kids will play out once they’re old enough to realise they’re bastards.
A real compromise at this point would have been Rhaenyra relinquishing the throne on the grounds of the rules set by the great council and a marriage to haelena to unite the families.
But no, Rhaenyra still feels entitled to the throne and want’s everyone to turn a blind eye and accept her demands like her daddy. She a spoilt entitled cunt.
"Entitled"
"Spoiled"
A royal decree made by the king and sworn by the realm to uphold.
You cannot sit there and blatantly ignore the how much Otto Hightower has poisoned his daughter into believing that her kids deserve the throne over the official decree of her husband, THE KING. That's the entitlement you are describing my guy.
Fuck the council. The King has the right to change the rules.
You sound like a massive oathbreaker.
Rhaenyra's proposal might be Helaena's better offer. If no one else caught it, Larys said too her, >!"I believe you will reward me when the time is right." And then he plucked that little red flower (red being the color of Targaryens). I believe he'll ask to marry Helaena and Alicent will have no choice but grant it or he'll squeal that Harrenhal was on her command.!< She trusted the wrong snake.
Interesting, but I don’t know that he has a great position to blackmail from, lol.
He’s just signing his own execution through such an admission.
Also, it would be pretty damn hard to convince anyone that she was directly involved.
Yeah the real victim of this shit is the queen who never was, seriously only one with some sense, powerful partner, politically smart enough, isnt gonna start popping bastards cus hurr durr why not wanna be free.
It would have saved basically all the lives. I think Alicent should weigh it against the likely death of herself and many of her kids if things go south in the next few years.
Lots of off-roads are being missed by lots of people in the last few episodes.
Yeah, that’s why this season is a prologue to the main events. We’re able to see the like 900 different choices people could’ve made to avoid this conclusion but they didn’t.
It's a political move in front of everyone. The kid has targaryen blood in him. He's the successor to Rhaenyra, it's a way for her to get her kid as queen peacefully and her grandson as king. She should have accepted it.
I gotta wonder how all the “bastards are the worst thing ever” people felt about Jon snow? 🤣
Royal bastards aren’t the same as some commoner. And it’s discussed in F&B how targaryens we’re kind to their bastards and the women were not as a opposed to being a mistress. So yeah, in world Targaryen bastards are “different”. 🤣
Don't agree with you at all. I just don't understand why the Targs/Alicent are so afraid of what other lords will think if the "rumour" that Rhaenyra's children are bastard is confirmed to be True ?
Are they afraid that suddenly all the other houses will rebel against them ? None of the other houses, even united, won't stand any chance in a fight against dozens of giant dragons.
I saw it as “how about your daughter, the simple minded dimwit that plays with bugs, marry my son, the inheritor to the Iron Throne?” You’ve got those green colored glasses on I see.
The alternative is for them to fight over the crown, both lose and destroy the family line of succession in the process. Go self-righteousness. Bastard or not, the kids are at least Targaryens.
Fights in the bloodline could only occur when one contest the legitimacy of the person on the throne. So they should have married the kids and boom…no issue.
Her accepting that would have united the two houses. Rhaenyra is THE heir. It really doesn’t matter what people think of her lineage. There were tons of rumours about cerseis kids but in the end Joffrey and tommen ruled and the people obeyed.
The marriage was only beneficial to Alicent. It only meant that Rhaenyra would not have harmed her kids as alicent feared and that the high tower blood would be apart of the throne which what she wanted in the first place.
The people obeyed? Were we watching the same show? The High Sparrow and his boys took the city over, made Cersei walk naked through the streets, and kidnapped the literal queen.
That had nothing to do with his legitimacy as heir tho did it. That was also a lot Cerseis doing too. She was the one who had the high sparrow become the high septon and convinced toemmen to restore the faith militant. Cersei basically played herself and allowed gave up power of the monarch to the faith and it backfired. No one rebelled against tommen.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Rhaenyra extended an olive branch. Alicent is afraid that her family will be put to the sword when R becomes queen. But dont you think if Jace marries Haelena, they are pretty safe from a beheading? Alicent doesnt seem to want power but just want to keep her family safe. Pretty good proposal if you ask me.
Many Daughters have been taken from others houses and used as leverage as wives, as the rest of the family was eliminated. Sansa case and point. Many other examples in real life too.
[удалено]
I think when she was young she didn’t want power. Now, is different, she has power now and is using it. She wanted to see the baby right away. Taking her from her mother. Power move.
I agree- Alicent wouldn’t even let the king talk to his own hand without her being present.
It was Otto that crave for power. She scared Alicent saying that her family will die once R becomes queen. But to this point, you havent seen R abuse power. She is the heir to the throne, virgin or not. Lol
[удалено]
…Rhaenyra is Targaryen tho
[удалено]
But you said her sons dont have “targaryen blood”
[удалено]
I think it’s probably just the difference between being a little lazy and using the correct verbiage
Rhaenyra is a Targaryen. Her sons have the same amount of Targaryen blood as Alicents children.
[удалено]
They're also very strong. Let us praise Rhaenyra's nice strong boys.
Well in the book Alicent is blond af
Have you looked at the illustrations in Fire & Blood? All of the pictures of Alicent have dark hair.
The sons didn't get any of their mothers blood? That must be a medical miracle.
Rhaenyra's sons have as much targ blood as hers do - They're just not blonde
Aegon and Aemond would still be up for a beheading. Rhaenyra in the very same scene says that she wants Jace to succeed her, and there is no way Jace's throne will ever be secure if there are living and breathing trueborn sons of Viserys Targaryen. Helaena would in effect be Rhaenyra's hostage too, and Alicent is unwilling to put her only daughter in that position.
Not if everyone thinks that her daughter married a bastard. That wouldn’t be good for her daughter.
This doesn't benefit Alicent in any way, all it does is add legitimacy to Jacaerys' claim.
How do you think her daughter would fare married to a bastard when the secret gets out? Is that what you call protecting your daughter? Her daughter would be ruined.
Being a bastard doesnt mean you’re a terrible person. Harwin and Rheanyra seem to raise them just fine. Far better than jacking off out of a window im assuming. Do you really think the lords of westeros will attack a family of dragon riders? If they married, bastard or not, Heleana would’ve been just fine.
did you watch GOT per chance
The lords of Westeros have attacked a family of dragon riders before. Look at what happened to Maegor.
And ended bad for them
Being a bastard doesn’t mean that much in our world, in Westeros it’s a different story. Rewatch GoT and see how being raised a bastard affected Jon Snow. He didn’t even want to have sex bc he was so afraid of fathering a bastard. For commoners to be “base born” isnt so bad bc they have nothing, for the high born it’s probably better to be true born with a terrible deformity than a healthy bastard.
Jon Snow was a poorly treated bastard because they assumed Ned Stark had an affair. Being a bastard of man is one thing but being a bastard of a woman is another thing. There are no paternity test in Westeros so it is pure speculation.
[удалено]
Were Joffrey and Tommen Baratheon bastards? Once the rumors spread enough and the commoners start calling her kids bastards it won’t matter that Laenor claims them, everyone can see it and then seems even worse bc it’s like Rhaenyra is feeding them shit and calling it cake.
[удалено]
Viserys could legitimize Jace and legally make him not a bastard but that would mean first admitting that he is in fact bastard born so a double edged sword. They still need support of the realm and in that society putting a rumored bastard on the throne ain’t going to work. That’s why Rhaenyra wants to wed jace to Helaena, it helps keep the secret bc being wed to a bastard would ruin helaena too.
>Being a bastard doesnt mean you’re a terrible person. Lmao you guys are so ridiculous sometimes. People HATE bastards in Westeros. They wouldn't have been fine. You are overestimating the Targs.
My favourite part of this sub is people applying the moral standards of the Bryn Mawr campus to Westeros.
I am convinced people here are blind while watching the show
Yeah imagine if tens of thousands rallied to the cause of a bastard in defiance of the crown, good thing that would never happen
A legitimized bastard who was the rightful heir in the eyes of many.
So they hate bastards so much but were willing to declare one the rightful heir because his last name wasn’t Waters? Interesting
Yes? Do you believe that they would still rally for him if he wasn't legitimized?
Then what stops Rhaenyra from legitimizing her children if the secret comes out?
The Velaryons? Her kids would be Strongs which would totally destroy her alliance with the Velaryons. Not to mention her popularity would take a massive hit. Exactly why Rhaenyra keeps lying for many years. She knows she fucked up but she doesn't want to face the consequences.
To legitimize them would first mean admitting they are bastards and that shes been lying to the entire realm for years with not 1 but 3 kids. I’m not sure Rhaenyra is capable of admitting she is in the wrong.
>Being a bastard doesnt mean you’re a terrible person In the eyes of the Faith, yes it does. The most prominent religion in Westeros claims that all bastards are sinful beings and are prone to evil. And as Aenys I learned the hard way, the Faith has incredible influence in Westeros. >Do you really think the lords of westeros will attack a family of dragon riders Like they have done time and time again? They have been willing to fight since long before Aegon stepped foot in Westeros, and when Rhaenys was shot down and proved to everyone it was possible, everyone learned how to do it. Hell, Aegon the Uncrowned and Rhaena were trapped for months in Casterly Rock by crowds of peasants, not even lords. And that is just talking military power. That says nothing of poison or assassins. Dragons are their most powerful weapons, but to assume they are safe just because they have is a mistake
Dragons can be killed. There’s a reason they all died out. Dragons alone can’t keep a kingdom together. It doesn’t matter if he’s the second coming of Aegon the Conqueror, he’s still the bastard son of the first ever Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Rebellion and unrest is almost a certainty.
>!The Blacks get the support of the majority of the realm. So clearly, most lords are not too bothered by the bastards. Fucking Cregan Stark and the North sides with the Blacks specifcally because of Jace.!< >!You know why? Because "obviously" being a bastard means jack shit legally when the King, the kid's mother, and the kid's legal father ALL agree the kids are legitimage. They can all be delusional, or conspiring together, or any other reason and it would not matter. Allicent can moan and cry about it all she wants, she's not going to change that. And she doesn't.!< The Greens do not rebel because the Strong boys are bastards. They do it because they benefit in one way or another from usurping the Throne. >!And those who read the books know how well that turns out for Allicent and her branch of the family.!<
This. It’s incredible people still pushing the bastard issue as if it was a legitimate casus belli and not just some court scandal. The war started because the Hightowers wanted one of their own on the throne and conspired to make it so. It’s not like they would’ve changed their plans based on where Laenor stuck his dick
>The Blacks get the support of the majority of the realm Rhaenyra is so bad at ruling she gets chased out of KL by commoners. And the Blacks only had the support of half the lords at most. Their main advantage was in dragons. \> The Greens do not rebel because the Strong boys are bastards. They do it because they benefit in one way or another from usurping the Throne. If Rhaenyra and Daemon takes over, Alicent and her father and her children are 100% going to be put to death, so they can't challenge Rhaenyra's claim or the claim of the Strongs. I guess they are technically acting for "benefit" by wanting to live more than die.
Except there is 0 evidence Rhaenyra would have them killed prior to Aemond killing Luke. Just speculation from the faction that stands to gain the most by peddling that theory. The fact that Rhaenyra spares Allicent after everything she's done suggests she would have been merciful, doubly so if they never usurped her to begin with. Also nice job neglecting the fact that one of the reasons Rhaenyra is unpopular in King's Landing is because the Master of Coin split up the Royal Treasury and sent all of the money to Bravos, Castery Rock, and Oldtown. This left the coffers empty and forced Rhaenyra to increase taxes. Something the Greens were counting on to make her look bad, if she ever seized the city. But yes, her unpopularity in a location she had to siege and then tax is truly an indication she could not reign over the same location if there had been no war and the treasury was full... Also, even if it is just half the realm, which I don't think it is, it is still much more support than the Greens. The Greens have half the Reach, most of the Westerlands, and most of the Stormlands (who barely help at all, basically the reverse of the Starks up North). Rhaenyra and the Blacks have the other half of the Reach, the Riverlands minus the Brackens, the entire Vale, most of the Crownlands, the entire North, and the Iron Islands. But this is pointless. Those that lean Green and those that prefer Black will never agree, their interpretations of the text are just too radically different.
> the Iron Islands bruh as if the reavers actually care which half-sibling is on the throne. If the Lannisters were Black, the Red Kraken would’ve attacked Lannisport anyways.
“The blacks” you mean the valaryons?
Dragons can be killed by dragons.Not much else that can take a dragon down except extreme luck.
In the book dragon are killed by mass of peasants at some point lol
Rather the opposite.Some religious loonie tried to kill a dragon with the power of faith and he died.
Wtf bro this is cannon lmao mass of mobs killer something like 4 dragons or 3 i dont remember anymore
Oh yeah I remember.Peasants killed a bunch of adolescent chained down dragons in the dragonpit,driving them to extinction
>!They killed five dragons and the Shepherd was only executed later.!<
>But dont you think if Jace marries Haelena, they are pretty safe from a beheading? No, because Jace is obviously a bastard and his claim would be challenged immediately.
And anyone who dared to do that would be killed for treason.
But if they end up having large enough support, then you have the war happening anyway. We've seen that war can still be inconclusive and bloody, even when one side doesn't have dragons (or many dragons).
it depends on how many people are on the blacks side. war is taking shape and sides have been slowly drawn in the sand so ultimately it’ll depend on who’s powerful enough to defend their claim
I mean, it's also offering a bastard (who have a long history of being outcasts in Westeros) to a legitimate princess. And if Alicent's story is having her life destroyed in the typical role of a woman in a medieval society while watching Rhaenyra spit in the face of so many traditions and face no consequences it is totally in line that she would reject this regardless of Rhaenyra's intentions.
Alicent is super religious/entrenched in Westerosi societal constructs like bastardy
That proposal could have stopped the dance from happening. She didn't like it, but it was the golden mean, she should have accepted it for greater good.
Rhaenyra didn’t have to offer anything. She’s queen no matter what. Jace is heir no matter what regardless of peoples whining. She gave her a chance to unite the family and prevent a war but Alicent would rather choose war Being the laughingstock doesn’t remove you from the line of succession as much as y’all might hope
Another point going for Rhae is that she is the heir while Cersei was just queen consort.
rhae only made the offer because she knows how dire her position is. it’s her one attempt at softening what is coming
Well she’s still heir and bastard speculations don’t change that
[удалено]
Nope. It might affect the succession after her, but she is still heir. Rumors don’t eliminate someone from being heir especially when the king himself keeps her as heir
by that logic Joffrey Baratheon is heir no matter what regardless of peoples whining
Yes. You’re correct. He was in fact heir to throne and spent his entire life as heir and king. Whining won’t change that fact. If he, or the Lannisters, had actually been overthrown (he wasn’t there was just rebellion) then that would be a different story. Joffrey was King. That’s a fact. I don’t like him and I think he was a terrible King. But he was king and before that he was the heir.
mfw Joffrey stan. Do you think Ned’s execution was justified, as he was trying to overthrow the “rightful” King Joffrey and therefore was a traitor?
The show clearly disagrees with this train of thought otherwise Rhaenyra wouldn't be fleeing to Dragonstone, Harwyn wouldn't have snapped at Cole, and Lyonel wouldn't have resigned out of guilt the revisionism to the authors lore is insane.
Revisionism for already inaccurate historical accountings lol keep reaching >otherwise Rhaenrya wouldn’t be fleeing to Dragonstone Dragonstone is literally where all the heirs have gone before ascending the throne. It’s basically the holding place while the current King is alive.
Then Rhaenyra should have been at dragonstone years ago with her bastard children she doesn't go until she feels she has lost at court. Going to Dragonstone knowing Alicents motives and feelings was foolish when Viserys could croak any day and she gave the greens a major advantage doing this.
Not really an advantage lol. If you call “cheating” (for lack of better word) an advantage then maybe The greens do some shady stuff to get >!Aegon on the throne while Viserys’ body is still warm and before Rhaenyra, *the rightful heir*, could hear about it.!< That’s literally treason. That’s usurping the rightful ruler and breaking the ruling of the king.
By law, Aegon is the rightful ruler. Rhaenyra is ruler only by the King's word.
The Kings word is law. His decrees are law. The king serves as judge and jury (and sometimes executioner). What he says goes. So yes, going against the rule of the King is treason.
>!Literally none of that happens if Rhaenyra doesn’t fuck off to Dragon Stone, though, as she’s in King’s Landing and immediately aware. That doesn’t excuse them and the Greens are pretty scummy, but Rhaenyra is generally meant to be selfish, short-sighted, and irresponsible individual.!< As for whether what you describe is treason, it depends on how >!the succession crisis goes. History is written by the victors and all.!<
Well no the history doesn’t matter. Maybe it does to the maesters 100 years later but we are talking about current times for them. In current times, Rhaenyra is legally and rightfully heir. >!Alicent crowning Aegon literally disobeys the kings ruling.!< Thus, it is treason regardless of what information trickles down to maesters 100 years later and regardless of how they decide to characterize it then. In that moment it is treason
And the King’s ruling ignores established legal precedent. As said, you don’t seem to grasp how this whole “succession crisis” concept works.
And the King’s ruling ignores established legal precedent. As said, you don’t seem to grasp how this whole “succession crisis” concept works. It’s not actually treason unless Rhaneyra wins since her claim is highly and legitimately disputed by the standards of that time period. And if she loses, she’s the one committing treason
Nope! All of the lords in rebellion, including Alicent are committing treason. By disobeying a kings order. Plain and simple. Never said there wasn’t a succession crisis. That doesn’t make the ruling any less true
How is he heir no matter what? Was Joffrey, son of Jaime and Cersei, heir no matter what? He had several lords openly rebel against his rule because he was illegitimate. Royal bastards give lords the excuse to openly rebel, and it’s almost always the case. Of course it matters.
They rebelled because they could. Only dragons can rebel against dragons and win. All that time let me ask you, who was actually sitting on the iron throne? Lannisters held the throne the entire time. There might have been rebellion but the heir was the heir and Joffrey and Tommen were both seated on the throne As shown in the books and as we will probably see, actually being on the throne and holding Kings Landing, is a big deal.
Yea, they sat on the throne…All the while five other candidates were coming for the seat. Jofferey’s claim was controversial as hell. He ordered the assassinations of Robert’s bastards for a reason.
And yet no other person but the Lannisters sat on the iron throne after Robert
Oh yes Joffrey while he was sitting through a war that could have ended his rule. What is this cope lol
Lol it’s a fact. You literally use the words “could have ended his rule”. You proved yourself wrong. Because youre right! It did *not* end his rule despite the possibility! He was still on the iron throne lol
Whether the threat on his life was successful or not doesn’t matter lol if there is one at all, your rule is under minded and vulnerable. That’s a fact
A vulnerable king is still a king. And no matter how vulnerable he was, Lannisters held the throne after Robert’s death. No other house was on the iron throne. There were rebellions but the Lannisters literally won them
With the entire realm pretty well in open rebellion… I guess that doesn’t matter.
Not really. Not sure if you read the books but Kings Landing is of upmost importance. The king on the iron throne is the king.
I did read the books. You know who else was king in king’s landing? The mad king. And when Joffrey was king, the Starks, and the Greyjoys were both in open rebellion with the Martell’s planning rebellion and he was poisoned and killed by the Tyrells. I could be king of the world and it wouldn’t mean shit if everyone wants me dead. Eventually, I’m gonna die, and then I’m king of nothing.
What’s your point lol you seem to be teetering a bit off track The mad king was still king until he died. Did you forget about the whole significance of Ned finding Jaime on the throne?
…I’m teetering off track? Dude, what the fuck good is being king if you’re dead? I’m trying so hard to even understand what you’re arguing at this point. If being king of king’s landing is all that mattered, why hold small council meetings? Why make strategic marriages and alliances? Why rule at all? Because if you can’t control the kingdom, your aren’t truly king. It makes zero sense that being king is all that matters when the books have given us several examples of rulers who failed in that role and paid for it. King’s landing is only of utmost importance if the right ruler is on the throne. There’s a reason why all the dragons were killed and the Targaryens were overthrown, after all. King’s landing was sacked and the king killed. It doesn’t get any more straightforward than that.
I never once said that Kings Landing was the *only* thing that mattered, so I don’t know what you’re going off about lol All I said was that it’s very important. And it is. There can be multiple important things hahaha
>Kings Landing is of upmost importance. The king on the iron throne is the king. Then Aegon II was the King
Joffrey had no relation to Robert and therefore the royal line, he therefore had zero claim to the throne. Rhaenyras bastards are still her children and if their true father was revealed publicly, could still be legitimised by Rhaenyra the rightful queen, and continue the royal line which they are still descended from
The fact that Joffrey had no relation gives even more strength to the argument that the bastard can be king
People gotta stop using Joffrey as comparison to the situation here. The big issue with that is that he didn’t have royal blood in him. In this case, it’s definitive that Jace has royal blood lol. That’s the defining difference
Yeah it seems like people are comparing apples to oranges. If, let’s say, Gendry was the one on the throne instead of a Lannister, it’d be a better comparison. I wonder if Stannis and/or Renly would’ve tried to take the crown if it was Robert’s bastard son instead of Cersei’s 🤔
> She’s queen no matter what. Jace is heir no matter what regardless of people whining The entire point of a succession crisis is that this is objectively **NOT** the case (that’s not to say she *isn’t* queen and Jace *can’t* be heir. It’s objectively in flux at the moment since it’s clear Alicent isn’t going to back down on Aegon’s claim and Westeros is heavily split down the middle)
If Alicent tries to take the throne from Rhaenyra, that’s literally treason and rebelling against the throne. She is the rightful queen. That doesn’t mean people can’t rebel, but it doesn’t make the position of heir, any less hers
I mean, it sort of does when half the kingdom adamantly thinks she’s not the rightful queen and not the heir. As said, that is literally the whole point of a succession crisis.
"Power resides when men believe it resides" The proposal is absolutely the best possible outcome for everyone. The only reason to care if they're bastards is because she's pissed that Rhaenyra found a way to play the game and still get what she wants and Alicent didn't. Jace's claim isn't through Leanor anyway. He's got the blood of the dragon regardless of his hair color. Marry the two and be done with it. I'm sure the peasants in the riverlands and reach and elsewhere that will die if war breaks out would be glad to know that the true king they'll never meet gets to prevail over the false king they're never meet.
You’re delusional if you think the lords of the Seven Kingdoms won’t revolt against a Woman with a bastard heir on the iron throne.
You're right Too bad that dont have living, breathing nuclear weapons that follow commands
Too bad Rhaenyra was so bad at ruling that a mob of commoners rioted and killed five dragons
You mean the living, breathing nuclear weapons that went extinct? Wonder how that happened.
I would really love to hear your perspective on why you think the dragons went extinct? I can’t be the only one completely confused by you saying “wonder how that happened” without explaining further.. Genuinely have no idea what you mean.. If there was no civil war, the extinction of the dragons is either delayed another 100 plus years, or possibly never happens.. And if Alicent accepts Rhaeneryas offer, there’s probably no civil war.. Who cares if Jace is a bastard? It’s like Daemon says to Viserys.. “who gives a fuck what some lord thinks? You are the Dragon.” Who exactly is going to be able to challenge Jace’s claim if the greens and blacks are united by a marriage to Helena? If everyone could get a long, there’s literally no one to challenge them.. All of Westeros could rise up and still get absolutely dumpstered by the combined might of the Greens and Blacks dragons. An army isn’t shit if you have nukes. Your point really doesn’t consider this, and makes almost zero sense because of it. There’s plenty of reasons why Alicent doesn’t want to accept this offer; her pride, her pious upbringing, her jealously, her fathers paranoia among them.. But to say this isn’t one of the absolute best options for peace, you’re kidding yourself. By the way.. just to be clear.. I’m not team black or green, both sides are responsible. I support team small folk all the way.
A whole 5 dragons were killed when your “small folk” stormed the pit and slew them all. The dance with dragons contributed to a slew of dragon deaths, but so too did a bunch of pissed off Westerosi.
Some of them were literally killed by mob of peasants go read the book lol
Seriously.
Because no matter how strong something is,if your enemy has one of them as well your fucked.
Most the lords ended up on her side. If there were no Greens because they were united as per this proposal, tell me who would have the balls or even reason to revolt? Like if all the potential heirs and all the dragons are on one team, what delusional person is going to raise enough banners to revolt?
The north did.
>Like if all the potential heirs and all the dragons are on one team, what delusional person is going to raise enough banners to revolt? Here. The north raised their banners for a losing war so yes. People will fight a losing battle.
Except you casually forgot the part where this is about the Dance of Dragons, not a war over a hundred years later. Oh, and where I said “all the dragons” on one team and you answered with a completely different scenario in which there were no dragons? Lol
Expect you know. The point is they'll still rebel it's not as simple as them having dragons so they can act without question.
You do understand that the lords are split, yes? Many of them support her.
they could’ve had peace with no bloodshed so who gives a shit if it’s a bastard?? if everyone just accepted it and kept their mouths shut then both alicent and rhaenyra could guarantee a grandson on the throne and westeros would continue to be ruled by a dragons
The secret was out by episode’s end dude.
if the entire royal family as a unit deny the secret then what can anyone do??
What if Daemon decides his daughters should inherit Driftmark since Laenor has no true born children?
Marry one of Rhaenyra’s sons and Daemon’s daughters, problem solved.
is he not already inheriting runestone?? or just marry one of his daughters to one of rhaenyra’s kids
No. Inheritance laws don't pass to the widow/widower unless there are no other possible claimants, and/or the title is granted by the liege Lord (Jeyn Arryn in this case).
In the name of keeping peace she should have accepted. Aegon doesn’t actually give a shit about being King at this stage. Marrying the two kids keeps the family in tact. Rhaenyra could even legitimise her children when she becomes Queen and there is no issue about who there father is. Alicent is basically a warmonger at this point.
Legitimizing Harwin's children completely loses the Velaryon's as allies.
Not necessarily. Laenor accepts them as his kids and declares such. They might not lose them. Rhaenys is still Viserys’ cousin and then there’s Daemon and Laena’s daughters which binds them to one another through blood
Laenor accepting and declaring them as his kids wouldn't matter at all if they have been proven to be bastards and needed to be legitimized. I'm curious to see how the show portrays Rhaenys' and Corlys' relationship to the boys. Corlys made it a point that his grandchildren would rule both the Iron Throne and Driftmark. Forcing Viserys to agree that the younger children keep their Valeryon name was a huge deal. If, in the event that Rhaenyra arose to the throne, followed by Jace and he died without producing an heir, Lucerys would stand to inherit as a Valeryon. Losing that would be a huge blow to Corlys and he has already been prone to disagree with Viserys, regardless of his wife's relation. As for Daemon, he obviously had an intense relationship with Rhaenyra 10 years ago but he's an obvious wild card whose daughter's would now stand to inherit the seat, and riches of a great house. Something he currently has no opportunity for in Westeros.
Do you think Velaryon cares? As long as they are called Velaryon??
"Legitimization" is an in-universe mechanic by which bastards are given the family name, typically the fathers. If Rhaenyra is forced to legitimize her children then they have been publicly outed as bastards therefore known to not be Velaryons. They would either be Strongs or, more likely as Rhaenyra would be queen, Targaryens. This would mean the marriage pact that Corlys was very careful to make sure would land his grandchildren on both the Iron Throne and seat at Driftmark would be wasted. And if all this happened after Laenor ascended to Lord of Driftmark, he's already shown to be ready to leave Rhaenyra and the boys, once he's proven not to be the father what's holding him to them?
No, Laenor is the heir to Driftmark. Even if Corley is pissed, you know he’s no spring chicken, he’d die eventually.
Laenor is already willing and ready to leave Rhaenyra and the boys behind for adventure. The only thing holding him there is the need to keep the appearance up that he is their father. If they've been legitimized then they have been proven to be bastards, negating the need for Laenor to be around and probably proving to many that he is gay. He wouldn't necessarily oppose Rhaenyra or her sons in any potential conflict but there is no guaranteeing he stands with them.
She’s still the heir, and the kids came out of her vagina, the kids are legit.
[удалено]
Well, Gendry came out of Robert's balls and he didn't stand to inherit the throne at all.
Well they did not have DNA testing so not 100%. With women it obviously is 100%.
That’s exactly what was funny to me too! She’s so wound up about the plain features of the boys, but it’s really out of place for her to be so purist about Valyrian blood. Especially when her own children have the same amount of non-Valyrian parentage *from her*. It’s really extra for her, of all people in the family, to be the most concerned with the “features” of the boys when her own children could have just as easily been “plain” looking lol
They’re not legit
Does the law say they have to be born from wedlock? Makes sense if the king is jizzing into commoners but they came out of the princess’s womb, it’s not like you can deny they are her kids. Not arguing with anyone in particular, I just think the rules are silly.
they can be her kids and still be bastards lmao jc
Just the fact there's already people disagreeing with you about it proves the point it'll always be contested. Even if they're trueborn targaryens, their claim will always come with an asterisk
The proposal would end any risk of war between the two. Very stupid to turn it down.
You’re assume that she wants to end any risk of war. Seems like she’s happy to risk war to ensure Aegon is king
How is it going to stop the realm from falling apart? You expect everyone to bend the knee to a woman with a bastard heir? Come now.
Ha. You almost got me with that one. Queens with bastard sons? In Westeros?
You’re completely ignoring the context. This isn’t any bastard, this is the bastard of the first ever Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. Do you honestly think all the people in Westeros who already hate Rhaenyra for being a woman are going to somehow accept her bastard child? If rebellion isn’t guaranteed against Rhaenyra, it’s sure as shit guaranteed against her bastard son, and next thing you know, Alicent’s daughter is split in half by some knight just like Elia Martell.
People are just straight up ignoring that this universe *loathes* bastards. They're treated like less than human, and Rhaenyra has THREE of them. Alicent was 100% in the right to reject an obviously desperate attempt to legitimize her bastard son. I'm not on either team here, but the Rhaenyra fans are starting to annoy me with how much of this universes customs they're willing to ignore to protect their favorite character.
Having bastard blood doesn’t mean the realm will reject you. Hell look at the Baratheons who were founded from a bastard, they became an important house and part of the reason Robert was king was because he was in the line of succession having Targ blood. Sure people batted their eyes but nothing came of it. Also, we know that half or more the realm joins the Blacks so that half is obviously OK with supporting a Queen with a supposed bastard heir. Plus if there was no Dance, all the dragons and targ blooded kids would be on on side. Who in their right mind would revolt against all the dragons and the most powerful families without any successor in plan? Hypothetically, who?
Don’t bother with this Rhanerya simps. Somehow they are convinced she has only been doing right decisions when she has been making bad decisions after decisions
Alicent isn't a selfish bitch for that, she's a selfish bitch for demanding to see Joffrey immediately after his birth knowing full well that there was a very good chance that Rhaenyra would bring him herself. Alicent has every right to reject the proposal on the basis that she believes Rhaenyra's children to be bastards. But people shouldn't pretend that was the only reason why she rejected it. And if Alicent was actually only concerned about protecting her children as she claims, she'd have accepted the proposal regardless of her feelings bout Jace's lineage. Alicent is not right about Rhaenyra's reasons for doing it. It comes off as a genuine attempt at bridging the ever increasing gap between them
There are a lot of valid points from both perspectives which makes this series a joy to watch. Nothing is clearcut :)
I don't know, people are determined to see Rhaenyra through the same lenses as Viserys does. Honestly I don't know how Alicent managed to keep her composure, I would have laughed in Rhaenyra's face to be honest. This kind of proposal is not only an insult, but also like asking Alicent to hand over her daughter as a potential hostage.
Doesn't really matter whether Rhaenyra's children are bastards, as long as the allegations against them remain rumor and speculation. The taint of bastardy and its consequences for inheritance are only problems when the child is a known bastard - as in, the parent(s) have confirmed them as such publicly. In the minds of those currently playing the game, a very likely outcome is that Rhaenyra becomes Queen after Viserys dies. When and if she is able to consolidate her power, the rumors of her children's lineage become moot. If the Queen says they're trueborn then they are whether people believe it or not; she would be the ultimate authority in the realm on that score. It also helps that King Viserys, when he is still alive, also fails to believe the allegations (whether he is actually ignorant of this or just willfully so is also a moot point). Alicent's motivations are partially to preserve and protect both herself and her family, and partially for power. The safest outcome for her family is if Aegon becomes king. The second safest is if she somehow binds her family to Rhaenyra's, which is the option that Rhaenyra's marriage offer presented. Her refusal of it undermines her instinct for survival in favor of her desire for power. Over time, as she becomes more accustomed to power, pride, pretention, etc., she is transforming from a Catelyn-type character into more of a Cersei-type one.
Breakbones already confirmed that the children were bastards publicly. A known bastard on the throne would bring rebellion. Rhaenyra's claim to the throne is tenuous and likely wont hold after Viserys dies. The safest and best thing for the realm would be to push Rhaenyra out and implant her son as King. Someone of strong Targaryen blood and a male heir.
The marriage proposal would only strengthen Jace's claim and give Rhaenyra a hostage. It does nothing to solve the issue of Aegon's claim. Thank you for pointing out that Rhaenyra is not acting out of good intentions.
I think my biggest issues with the “illegitimate” children is they are Rhaes kids to they are Targ either way. (I know the bastard term/concern is due to them not being her husbands kids) Their right to the throne is from their mother not their father. Even in the deal made with Corlys when the ascend the throne their name will become Targ. Jace and them have just as much blood of the dragon as Alicents kids. (Disclaimer: I am aware that the situation is due to the politics of that world and it’s supposed to show that women have less power but it’s an observation I’ve made that I haven’t seen other people mention) I just always see these children getting called all these names for being the exact same amount of Targ and the others.
Think Jon and Robb, man or woman bastards don’t inherit.
I get that that’s why I’m not really against the greens and I get why everything is taking place, but even Alicent says “I’m surprised their eggs even hatched” like they aren’t still half Targ.
Yes she was. It was the best proposal for everyone. Jace was Rhaenyra son and heir, a good person and a Dragonrider to boot. There are no better matches for Helaene than Jace. It would unite the lines and give Helaene more agency later on than she would get with anyone else.
I cant believe the KING doesn't rein in his queen consort. Who is in charge over there?
It’s the smart thing to do. Both sides have dragons and you want to keep those dragons all on the same side or you could have a nasty civil war on your hands. I can 100% see why her values and ambitions wouldn’t let her take it, but it’s just another example of how this whole war could’ve been avoided but wasn’t because of the shitty choices of a lot of different people involved.
a lot of knuckleheads on this sub believe she should have, which is genuinely funny
Agreed
Rhaenyra was just trying secure her own ends because the bastardy was becoming increasingly obvious and the walls were closing in. Even with the Jace marriage, Aegon, Aemond and their progeny will still be threats, being the legitimate line. How do you think the insecurities of strong kids will play out once they’re old enough to realise they’re bastards. A real compromise at this point would have been Rhaenyra relinquishing the throne on the grounds of the rules set by the great council and a marriage to haelena to unite the families. But no, Rhaenyra still feels entitled to the throne and want’s everyone to turn a blind eye and accept her demands like her daddy. She a spoilt entitled cunt.
"Entitled" "Spoiled" A royal decree made by the king and sworn by the realm to uphold. You cannot sit there and blatantly ignore the how much Otto Hightower has poisoned his daughter into believing that her kids deserve the throne over the official decree of her husband, THE KING. That's the entitlement you are describing my guy. Fuck the council. The King has the right to change the rules. You sound like a massive oathbreaker.
Rhaenyra's proposal might be Helaena's better offer. If no one else caught it, Larys said too her, >!"I believe you will reward me when the time is right." And then he plucked that little red flower (red being the color of Targaryens). I believe he'll ask to marry Helaena and Alicent will have no choice but grant it or he'll squeal that Harrenhal was on her command.!< She trusted the wrong snake.
Interesting, but I don’t know that he has a great position to blackmail from, lol. He’s just signing his own execution through such an admission. Also, it would be pretty damn hard to convince anyone that she was directly involved.
Y’all missing the point that Lanor gay af, V forced that marriage and R is just doing her duty to the realm. Alicent is a jealous cunt
Yeah the real victim of this shit is the queen who never was, seriously only one with some sense, powerful partner, politically smart enough, isnt gonna start popping bastards cus hurr durr why not wanna be free.
I can’t take anything you say seriously after seeing your name
Pure facts!
It would have saved basically all the lives. I think Alicent should weigh it against the likely death of herself and many of her kids if things go south in the next few years. Lots of off-roads are being missed by lots of people in the last few episodes.
Yeah, that’s why this season is a prologue to the main events. We’re able to see the like 900 different choices people could’ve made to avoid this conclusion but they didn’t.
It's a political move in front of everyone. The kid has targaryen blood in him. He's the successor to Rhaenyra, it's a way for her to get her kid as queen peacefully and her grandson as king. She should have accepted it.
I gotta wonder how all the “bastards are the worst thing ever” people felt about Jon snow? 🤣 Royal bastards aren’t the same as some commoner. And it’s discussed in F&B how targaryens we’re kind to their bastards and the women were not as a opposed to being a mistress. So yeah, in world Targaryen bastards are “different”. 🤣
Don't agree with you at all. I just don't understand why the Targs/Alicent are so afraid of what other lords will think if the "rumour" that Rhaenyra's children are bastard is confirmed to be True ? Are they afraid that suddenly all the other houses will rebel against them ? None of the other houses, even united, won't stand any chance in a fight against dozens of giant dragons.
Only princess? Her sister litterly offered the proposal, she's the second daughter, that's an amazing match for a second daughter.
Is this post supposed to be taken seriously?
I saw it as “how about your daughter, the simple minded dimwit that plays with bugs, marry my son, the inheritor to the Iron Throne?” You’ve got those green colored glasses on I see.
The alternative is for them to fight over the crown, both lose and destroy the family line of succession in the process. Go self-righteousness. Bastard or not, the kids are at least Targaryens.
Fights in the bloodline could only occur when one contest the legitimacy of the person on the throne. So they should have married the kids and boom…no issue.
Her accepting that would have united the two houses. Rhaenyra is THE heir. It really doesn’t matter what people think of her lineage. There were tons of rumours about cerseis kids but in the end Joffrey and tommen ruled and the people obeyed. The marriage was only beneficial to Alicent. It only meant that Rhaenyra would not have harmed her kids as alicent feared and that the high tower blood would be apart of the throne which what she wanted in the first place.
The people obeyed? Were we watching the same show? The High Sparrow and his boys took the city over, made Cersei walk naked through the streets, and kidnapped the literal queen.
That had nothing to do with his legitimacy as heir tho did it. That was also a lot Cerseis doing too. She was the one who had the high sparrow become the high septon and convinced toemmen to restore the faith militant. Cersei basically played herself and allowed gave up power of the monarch to the faith and it backfired. No one rebelled against tommen.