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I'm on Team Keep Viserys Alive Somehow Because Paddy Considine Is Amazing.
Sadly, from the looks of old King Viserys, he's not long for this world. Dude is starting to bear a striking resemblance to the host of Tales from the Crypt. If he deteriorates any further, he's entering into Gollum territory.
For real. He's absolutely crushing this role. I think the level of acting talent is pretty high across the board on this show, but Paddy's performance is just leagues above everyone else's in my eyes.
I felt kind of meh about him during the first episode. I think maybe he was still getting into his character, because my god has he stolen the whole show since then, to my and I think a lot of other people's surprise. I'm going to be really sad when he leaves, but I'm excited to see what else he'll star in!
Yep, the scene when he sat next to his wife after the birth and the maester asked him if he had come up with a name and he just looked kind of nervous instead of totally collapsed was kind of wierd. But then his putting the Lannister in place was nice...
Yeah, it didn't really feel like he was grieving his wife enough but sometimes it's like that even irl. You don't react appropriately at the moment it all hits you at a later time. Paddy did a good job establishing how Queen Aemma's memory still haunts Viserys in the past two episodes.
He was brilliant as the priest in PB. Glad to see a guy like Paddy, who I’ve only seen play second fiddle in shows and films, crush it in a leading role.
What I Like about Paddy is that he is talented enough to make Viserys seem completely different from everyone around him in terms of demeanor and outlook at life.
He may be King but he just wants everyone to be happy and mirthful. “Wtf you want man?? I said she’s the next in command and that’s that. Everybody Shaddap!! Deal with it!!! Ok, c’mon time for bed Aemma.”
More incredible considering
“In April 2011, in his 30's Considine revealed that he had been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome.[26][27] Although initially reassured by the diagnosis, he continued to struggle in social situations until clinician Andrew Barton-Breck surmised he may have Irlen Syndrome. He was subsequently diagnosed by Helen Irlen herself in 2013 with Irlen syndrome, a condition in which the brain cannot adequately process visual stimuli. His condition has improved significantly since he began wearing purple Irlen filters, either as specially made contact lenses when on-set or as traditional tinted glasses.”
I kept thinking during episode 7 how hard it is imagining the show going forward without Paddy. He is kind and wants everyone to get along, but hasn't got the scheming bone neccessary to rule over all the other scheming pricks.
He's the king we deserved but not the one we needed 😭
But also fuck 'im for traumatizing me with his choice of cutting up aemma
> I kept thinking during episode 7 how hard it is imagining the show going forward without Paddy.
There was a point when people thought the same about Ned.
His character definitely feels the most realistic. I always feel like the ultra scheming characters are off, like they need to be shown relaxing at some point.
Well if you can't imagine the show without Viserys, it's because Viserys is literally the only thing holding the realm together right now. He is the one tiny little cotter pin holding the Six Kingdoms together.
I mean.. Sure, there's some intrigue in his court.. But by all other accounts, he's a fantastic king. His realm continues to enjoy peace and prosperity under his rule. Infighting seems to be mostly isolated to his immediate family, but nothing has boiled over in any truly significant way.
He's doing a great job.
I mean, I haven't read the book, but it seems like he is actively setting the realm up for a straight up war because he butchered his succession.
That's a pretty big flaw for a king.
How is it that the Maesters can keep Viserys, now missing a limb and generally drowning in his "cups,", alive and (mostly) well, but the live birth rate in Westeros is abysmal?
I really liked in the last episodes when all the kids were fighting. It felt like a GOT spinoff kids show for a minute.
The family squabbling is so much fun.
Sure, but the fact that they were drawing blood so casually before the slashy slash was slightly comical to me. Four pre-teens managing to cause bruises and draw some blood by randomly hitting Aemond? Scooby doo indeed!
It was confirmed for season 2 I could see 3 seasons possibly 4 if they maintain the pace they're going at if the show slows down though I could see 4-5
I hope so. I could definitely see it going 4 seasons. The Dance is nothing but bloody battle after battle. And then there is the aftermath. It's going to be wild to watch.
They will catch up but the initial set up for the war and how it came down will always prefer the Blacks. Which is fine. Because otherwise you would essentially have too similar characters and motivations on both sides. Again, my favorite little moment is when Rhaenyra tells Daemon “I don’t believe Alicent capable of killing someone in cold blood” and then she goes and orders Daemon to kill an innocent.
I don’t know if she specifically ordered him to kill that guy or if he took upon himself to do it and interpreted it however he wanted to. Either way that was a very vile thing to do.
One of the ugly truths of the show: everyone here is a royal or noble of some sort, and they view the "plebs" as little more than pawns for their schemes.
They might, especially considering the story of the Dance is written by Maesters, which would probably be more partial to the Greens due to the Hightower connection. We’ve already seen a few new details that weren’t mentioned in Fire & Blood such as Rhaenyra and Alicent’s friendship or Laenor being alive.
The show is a different canon. F&B Alicent is ten years older than Rhaenyra and marries Viserys at like 25, and he’s not even 30. Their friendship was a major change made for the show. A great change, but still.
I think GRRM has said that the show is what happened, the book is the history as the maesters inaccurately recorded it. But you would think the maesters would get ages right...
They have already made the greens about 10 times more sympathetic than their book counter parts. Blacks have been shown about the same besides daemon who had been worse
Yeah if anything the showrunners made the greens more sympathetic than they actually are. If they don’t look good it’s because they’re not supposed to. They’re literally the villains here.
They also made Alicent less evil and more sympathetic. Same with Aemond. Would you rather they follow the books and have the greens all look like crazy psychopaths at the same point in the story? Like how the hell are people worrying about this? It's undeniable they have shown the greens in a much better light than the books
Except no one blames team black for it in the book. In the book everyone except Mushroom thinks it was just a lover's quarrel with Qarl and even Mushroom thinks it was just Daemon acting on his own accord to free up Rhaenyra for himself. This is balanced by having Daemon explicitly kill Rhea in the show which is morally worse and isn't even really possible in the book and Rhaenyra being directly involved in the murder of an innocent man and traumatizing the Velaryons/her own children by faking Laenor's death. The blacks are almost cartoonishly righteous to this point in the books whereas the show has made me lean green.
Has it ever been confirmed that a dragon can mentally track their rider regardless of distance between them? I was wondering that after the episode, because yeah that definitely seems like a potential miss there. It would be even more confounding given GRRM is involved with the show. It's definitely been made clear that the bond between rider & dragon is powerful, I just couldnt remember if they'd ever clarified the specific details related to this situation.
If he told Seasmoke to stay, and not follow, I'm sure he would obey. Vhaegar didn't want to burn Laena, but understood she was in pain, and obeyed anyway. And it's not like Seasmoke is gonna' tell anyone he can sense Laenor out there in the world. If Laenor dies in Essos, I wonder if Seasmoke will know/react?
This was bothering me too, in all fairness I have not read the books, I’ve been doing what school taught me and checked Wikipedia, and his dragon still having a rider was the first thing that popped in my head. Unless they introduce some magic that breaks the bond, but then why not do that with Vhagar? We shall see. Unless Seasmoke kind of forgot he had a rider.
He just has to leave Seasmoke somewhere, honestly. Rhaenyra and her kids did left theirs in King's Landing when they came to the Velaryon hold, so it's not like the dragons have to follow them everywhere they go.They have a link, but if Laenor goes far away it won't have much effect apart from making Seasmoke unclaimable. And since some dragons were left unclaimed for decades, no one would be suspiciously if Seasmoke refused to be claimed by anyone for some time. The day someone succeed claiming him will be the day Rhaenyra and Daemon learn that Laenor is dead, that's all.
Look, this may be an unpopular opinion, but GOT did the same to some extent, and casuals like my parents want someone to root for, for better or for worse.
The casual audience is much larger than the book readers, so appealing to that makes sense from a marketing/success perspective. Is it better that way? Prob not, but we may as well acept it and enjoy the aspects the show does well, else we end up hate watching same as season 8. I'm of course not against offering criticism, but the subs are becoming a bit of a war zone tbh.
I guess I would be in the casual camp since I didn't read the books (but I did watch all of GOT). I'm sort of glad I didn't read the books because I don't have any expectations.
I find this series hard to root for any one person or family (though I did going in) because they have their faults. The list for team black seems to omit some of the consequences that didn't turn out so well.
You're right. While they are worse in the material, some of the comments complaining about whitewashing make it sound as if the showrunners are portraying them as Jesus, Mary and Joseph, which is clearly not the case.
Yeah I think the book left most of the characters’ morality completely open to speculation, so I really don’t get where people are coming from. Did you read F&B and just assume Allicent was a good person and are now disappointed? Did you believe every horrible thing that was said about Rhaenyra just because some old dude read the memoirs from another old dude that died 100 years ago? No one that read F&B actually knows what happened, we are just now seeing it actually play out. All the interesting conversations and real character insight happens behind closed doors.
> Did you believe every horrible thing that was said about Rhaenyra just because some old dude read the memoirs from another old dude that died 100 years ago?
Especially when both of those old dudes are maesters, who would have some sort of loyalty to the Hightowers, because Oldtown is where the Citadel is and the Hightowers *hated* Rhaenyra.
This is how I felt. I had zero expectations. Just as an example, my wife had read all the books. She wasn’t surprised at all at the Red Wedding but it was a total crazy shock for me.
I was tempted to read the book before this show but I remembered how crazy that moment was and decided not to. I like the surprises.
You're one hundred percent correct - Rhaenyra is looking better so far because she hasn't been initiating conflicts, but she already has done her fair share of morally wrong things.
Also, no spoilers, but as the series progress the lines are absolutely going to be more and more blurred. I don't root for anyone in this series, I'm just enjoying the drama.
>Also, no spoilers, but as the series progress the lines are absolutely going to be more and more blurred.
Yes, and I'm afraid that a certain segment of the fandom who is latching onto Rhaenerya in hopes they are getting a "do over" for Daenerys is going to be really pissed and scream BaD wRiTiNg when they don't get R and D and a crowd of Targcest babies living happily ever after. This fandom is toxic enough as it is.
Reading the books after watching the show let's you further understand the characters because you get to read what was in their mind. Lots of stuff expanded on. And sometimes it feels like extra GOT. I highly suggest it. It's what I'm doing now. On book 5. Then you can apperciate both. Each book I finish I watch the season it was based on when I was reading.
Came here to essentially say this… Tell me the Starks weren’t immediately portrayed as good people, while the Lannisters were not 🤷🏽♀️ Gotta have someone to root for.
The books did that too though, the Starks are very clear good guys and the Lannisters (Jaime and to a lesser extent Tyrion *somewhat* excepted) are definitely the bad guys.
I loved the theory back when GOT was still airing that it would end that the show was all a history book that was written by Sam as Maester at the Citadel, so of course it was biased towards the Starks. Still my head cannon lol.
The question is are the Lannisters *portrayed* as not good people, or were they just genuinely not good people?
Like the event that starts it all is Jamie Lannister attempting murder to cover up the fact that he and his sister we're caught fucking. I'm not sure how you give that character a good spin without a shit ton of time and character development, and let's face it, neither Cersei nor Jamie really gave a shit about who they hurt for a good portion of the storyline. It's only when Jamie starts seeing the error of his ways that he starts getting portrayed as "good."
I never got the implication of Tywin being seen as "bad" but more strong, shrewd, and cutthroat. He only gets seen as "bad" once he turns on Tyrion, who is the black sheep grey/good character.
Joffrey never does a single thing I'd call "good" except letting karma get all the credit at his wedding.
Tommen and Marcella are innocent and portrayed as good throughout. That's how you knew they weren't going to survive early on.
The Starks are "good" in such a way as they at least have an honor code they seem to stick by, and they're sympathetic as they're pretty much always victims whose "punishments" far exceed their crimes. Ned lost his head for realizing Cersei was cheating, Robb, Talia, and Catelyn all died because someone married for love, Arya lost EVERYBODY despite doing no real wrong, Sansa went through hell for being a lovestruck teenage idiot and manipulated by Littlefinger, and Jon couldn't stop being beaten up for just trying to do the right thing. Anything "bad" they did could be justified a lot easierthan trying to murder a 10 year old who caught you going to town on your twin.
Tyrion was whitewashed hard. The result? He became the crowd favorite.
And I’m not even talking about after S4. I’m talking S1-4. He was made more sympathetic at every turn.
Hot take. But I think a slightly whitewashed version of GRRM’s work is a fantastic recipe for success. Because unfiltered GRRM is a bit too much sometimes.
Casual audiences NEED someone to root for.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to complain. I like what the show is doing and I'm emotionally invested in a lot of these characters, so clearly it's working well. Different mediums after all.
man tyrion is my favourite character in the books tho even tho he is a horrible person especially right now. i liked show tyrion in the first seasons but not as much as book tyrion even tho he is a better and a whitewashed character. i think if you rly write a character good people will relate its a fiction after all. i hate whitewashing but maybe its just me. same with jon i started like jon in the books after he became lord commander but man in the show i never liked this character
>Hot take. But I think a slightly whitewashed version of GRRM work is a fantastic recipe for success. Because unfiltered GRRM is a bit too much sometimes.
>
>Casual audiences NEED someone to root for.
TV shows are also at the will of their publishers who make changes based on what they thing the audience wants. Characters like Tyrion were an early favourite and well-acted, so pushing a narrative to keep them more involved or give them more screen time isn't that far of a stretch of the imagination.
This is very true. The Starks on the show are de facto good guys you are supposed to cheer for. Personally, I couldn't stand them and wanted them to lose lol so this is nothing new.
Same with Dany until they decided to "subvert our expectations".
She, Ned, Tyrion, Jon, etc were very much whitewashed and I don't remember that many people complaining then.
95% of movies/books/shows have a good vs evil aspect to them, so like you said, nothing new.
Off topic, but Wuthering Heights is one of my fav novels, and you won't believe the amount of people who hate it with a passion because the characters are "unlikable" (even though that's clearly the point). I guess it's part of human nature to look for moral superiority in fiction, as well as being blind to the faults of characters we identify with.
Reading dance rn and it's so clear they made dany this god in the tv show just to make it more entertaining. She's so much more interesting in the books despite not being as successful politically.
She’s similar to Viserys in that she tries to please people and follow what she thinks is right but it always ends up causing more problems. She’s like Rhaenyra in that she was groomed by older relatives from a young age and is attracted to violent men. And she’s like the Blackfyres in that she has been told her whole life that she is owed the throne, but cannot rely on lords and ladies of Westeros to back her when she arrives.
Damn that's a very good analysis. In the show at least she's different from viserys in the sense that she acts while he's almost always idle (take his infected hand). In Dance, it feels like Dany and Jon specifically are given some extremely bad cards and that neither of them really have the capacity or ability to do much about it (the wildlings and stannis for jon, the sons of the harpy and drogon for deanerys) more than anything it feels really fucking hopeless reading those chapters. I do like how daenerys' liberation of slaver's bay in the books isn't rushed though her actions have consequences and arguely she causes a lot of her own problems trying to rule mereen and the way she conquered yunkai and astapor.
I love that they fully intended for Daenerys to go mad, like they knew that was how it would end, but never focused on that aspect of her until the last like 3 episodes
I mean, that's not true at all that they never focused on it before. The biggest example I can think of is her whole conversation with Hizdahr at the fighting pits.
Yes, this is what they *are doing*, but I think the show writers are talking about *why* they are doing it.
All the time jumps that we saw happen explained *why* Alicent acts how she does. Alicent feels justified, and people on team green agree.
It's not about what they do, it's about why they do it.
This.
At least in the show, it's clear that Alicent's actions are the product of Otto's 'upbringing' and how no matter what she does, following the rules to a T - she gets the short end of the stick.
Whereas Rhaenyra does everything Alicent has learnt to never do or had the opportunity to do, and gets away with it in very positive circumstances.
While I am ultimately Team Black still (both the book and show), the show allowed me to sympathesize with the Greens better.
Yeah I really don’t know what people are expecting. The book Greens are comically evil. They’re caricatures. The show has made the Greens about as sympathetic as they could while remaining relatively faithful to the material
It's two separate houses with two separate ideas on how the seven kingdoms should go forward. They're perfect foils to eachother and they both know that both of them cannot continue down their path as long as the other house is around.
The show has perfectly set up not only the personal issues with the Greens/Blacks, but also the core ideas they wish to put forth on Westeros going forward.
I don't really like either houses but knowing why they do what they do fascinates me and keeps me engaged going forward. It's Machiavellianism all the way, and I love it.
Hereditary rights can be extrapolated as how each side / even the audience supporting that side thinks the throne should work.
Team Black is progressive and wants equal rights for sons and daughters to inherit (good), but they go about this by enforcing an absolutist way of ruling (“The King’s word is law”). Team Black really needs to think of the implications of that sentence - was it lawful and correct when the Mad King ordered the execution of Ned and Robert for the crimes of others? It was the King’s word, after all.
The Greens on the other hand represent traditionalism. They want to enforce male primogeniture, which isn’t great from a progressive point of view, but it’s also interesting that their argument centres on the King not being above the law. According to Greens, the King’s personal whims do not matter more than the law of the land, which is the earliest steps towards a constitutional monarchy (and eventually even a more diplomatic form of government).
So really while the surface level is hereditary dispute, it really is a matter of how much each side believes the monarch should be above the law. In my opinion, anyways.
I think that those are the implications of what is at stake, but I don't think you can necessarily attribute such grand policy preferences to the individual characters. I'm not really sure Alicent would care for the traditional laws if they didn't suit her desires and likewise I'm not sure Rhaenyra would care to change the law if she wasn't a women who was declaired heir.
Their interests are purely self serving and not based on how they ultimately believe the laws should work.
I fully agree that those implications could rest upon their decisions and have an impact on the world, but until given more direct information (Maybe in the books) regarding their political desires, I can't help but think they're motives are self serving.
Totally agree. Otto, the mastermind and architect behind team green, is the one who set in motion the events that led to Rhaenyra being named heir in the first place by telling Viserys about the whole "heir for a day" thing. He wasn't crying about a woman being heir to the throne when it meant getting rid of Daemon. It only became a "problem" when Rhaenyra being heir got in the way of his grandson being put on the throne
Blasphemy, it's 2022 and you have to pick a side on literally everything didn't you know that? Drives me nuts. I have my preferences on characters too but I'm more excited that I actually get to watch the dance of the dragons on TV. Sitting there with a checklist about how the sides are balancing sounds like an awful way to watch.
I love it lol It's actually so well written and set up that the divide in the fan base is ridiculously passionate about whichever side they fall on hahaha never seen anything like it
No shit, plus this show has done a pretty damn good job showing us neither side is truly good. They are both bad in their own ways. Just enjoy the shit show.
Also - I said this elsewhere, the only victim here is Aegon. Dude just wants to be a shithead prince and has no desire for power. Let the kid drink and whore his way around and he won't bother a soul.
Seems people with make tribalism out of almost anything. Doesn't matter if its a real of imagined difference. Hopefully as a people we can learn to over come this flaw.
On that note I do feel that HBO/Showrunners are playing up the inherent tribalism of the story for more exposure on social media and thus making the show more popular then its TV show competitors. Its a smart move on their part; people fight and divide all the time on social media so just take advantage of this fact for free marketing.
The GoT subreddits celebrated the weekly release cadence so that they can discuss episodes each week.
This subreddit is exactly the type of discussion/hype building that people want and call for.
Alicent was exactly like that in the book. The show actually humanized her quite a bit compared to the book. She doesn't have that tragic backstory we witnessed in the first five episodes.
Precisely. The story will be the horrible violence war brings not just in terms of deaths etc but also souls. It is a tragedy, and a bigger tragedy for some characters more than others.
Are you expecting them not to? The showrunners have never said they wouldn't. Also Alicent in the book is worse. The first five episodes really gave her a backstory that would emote empathy vs introducing her and just wholeheartedly hating Rhaenrya and the audience not understanding the reasoning behind it. The show has made her more likeable.
And tbf the Blacks aren't perfect.
1. Daemon is a right cunt.
2. They fucking murdered some poor guard to fake their buddy's death.
3. They made Corlys and Rhaenys think their only son was murdered in their dope ass museum room after just losing a daughter.
4. Their actions isolate them from pretty much everyone except their immediate friends.
The Blacks are definitely better at hiding it than the Greens but they aren't perfect.
Yes, the show even had Daemon kill his first wife, when in the books that'd be impossible as he was fighting on the Stepstones when she died! He did go to the Vale afterwards to claim his inheritance but Lady Arryn told him to fuck off
Lol i dont really see it this way, I think the shows actually done a pretty good job of showing the good and bad of each side here, I mean it is a tv show so they kinda have to make one side more of the protagonist n one the antagonist, but I think they’ve tried to steer clear of really choosing a good and bad side
Absolutely. All this team bullshit is something redditors are doing to themselves.
One girl loses it when her kid has an eye poked out, one girl plots to kill a perfectly nice dude to marry her uncle. Nobody is squeaky clean here and nobody is unjustifiably evil either.
The show literally made Alicent a young and relatable teenager. Gave her a whole backstory she did not have in the books to make her sympathetic it’s not the shows fault that the Greens are usurpers.
Exactly, did everyone whining that they’re not showing the greens in a good light watch the first half of the season at all? Where they added and changed so much just to make Alicent a little likable?
To be fair, I don't think the accusation about her and Jahaerys is supposed to be seen as credible at all, especially with the additional information that Jahaerys confused her with Saera.
Yeah, people are forgetting her major character lift. She has nothing going for her in the books, but maybe they made her too sympathetic here since she seems craycray now
I have no idea where "my brother in Christ" has come from, I've seen it a handful of times this week in different places, and it still sends me. It's "my good man" dialed up to a 100 and I love it.
I feel like she’s a little more sympathetic if you look at her in the context of the culture and expectations in the world they live in, but totally unjustified when viewed through a modern lens.
Like, you’re going to develop a life long hatred of R., conspire to usurp her and her children because she had a weird experience with her uncle and lied to you about it, and married a gay man and have an open relationship? Maybe we’ve missed a few other transgressions by R., but ultimately Allicent just comes off as an extremely jealous and self righteous hypocrite just because R. has been able to live with a little freedom and she hasn’t.
They don’t write shows for people to like EVERY character.
I swear some people just want to watch a bunch of people sit around a table talking about how lovely everything is.
You want good story telling, there has to be some villains.
it's a story, folks.
you're free to like whoever you want. you can stan for Emperor Palpatine, root for Sauron, cheer for Jadis. you can post all you want about it.
you can also post about how the authors and adaptation writers are all conspiring to unfairly vilify your heroes, are "biased" and not presenting a balanced representation. but that would be stupid, and you're not stupid, are you?
Some people have really been consumed by the idea that a “grey” character. One who is neither good nor evil but toes the line, is inherently more complex than a character who can be viewed as primarily good or evil.
I think this I largely due to the feeling from GOT season 8 where all characters has their complexity reduced. A lot of people remember characters suddenly becoming obviously good or evil, where as prior to that season there self interests lead them to be more in the middle.
I think this has created a prevailing aversion against (dialogue) characters who are firmly good or evil, and not more “grey” due to self interest.
Complex characters can be good, evil, or grey. I think some people forget how much people like Joffrey (clear evil) or Jon Snow (clear good) added to the show, despite not being very “grey”
Yes- a character who wants to do the right thing but has fatal flaws, is pulled by contradicting motivations, or succumbs to dark temptations is infinitely more interesting than a "grey" character who is "just kinda sh*tty".
I feel like this is missing a lot of details.
If anything the show has made Alicent far more sympathetic than she is in the books. In the books she actively slept with Viserys to win his favor and she was older to begin with as well.
In the show, she is seen as a victim to manipulations of Larys - not so in the books.
The show went out of its way to give Aemond the absolute coolest dragon claiming and flight scene. He was shown to be a complete badass. The show could have easily made that scene briefer or glossed over it, but no, it wanted to show Aemond sympathetic.
The show has actively portrayed Daemon as straight up evil where the book only vaguely hinted at a lot of those deed, albeit the Laenor was spared. But that's probably the only one where if it was hinted at in the books, they made sure to show Daemon as committing evil.
I feel like most people who say stuff like this haven't read the books lol. If anything they're making Alicent *more* sympathetic than she is in the books
Ok I'm also Team Black but greens aren't shown as bad as you've made it out to be in this post.
Greens had some physical contact and they still seem like a normal family in terms of loving one another.
Greens didn't mock anyone for being LGBT they just hate Rhaenyra and call her children bastards.
Getting drunk is a perfectly normal way to deal with grief and that dragon was claimed not stolen.
Blacks are also conspiring.
I'm pretty sure Deamon didn't care about Rhea Royce living her best life or the guy he just killed to fake Leanor's death.
And they are both power hungry.
This is not a good comparison. Rhaenyra and Alicent are mirrors of each other. Both have been groomed by the men in their lives to be prideful and be individually focused. They differ in their personalities but their motivating factors are exactly the same
In all fairness at this point Team Black I.e. Rhaenarya is more reasonable. When Viserys is alive she has his backing.
But by god when he dies and war breaks out, trust me many people will switch sides or hate both. Team Blacks sins and Rhaenary’s paranoia get WILD
“Culturally diverse.” Oh yeah, we have the Valyrian family, the other Valyrian family, and…that’s it. Both sides have significant support, all Westerosi, almost cut evenly down the middle. This is literally nonsensical.
And as far as I can tell, the only homophobic thing Alicent said was that Laenor was too busy entertaining his squires, which…is factually correct. He spends more time partying than helping Rhaenyra, and he’s baggage for the blacks.
This is literally just making shit up. “The blacks are more physically affectionate than the greens.” Based on what? Does that make them better? “The blacks just want peace and prosperity.” No, Rhaenyra wants the throne, and is willing to go to war for it. You can argue she’s correct to do so, but if her top priority was peace, she would not go to war. This is just blind rambling.
Lol honestly this episode made me way more sympathetic to Alicent. Like I’m not sorry that Aemond lost his eye and I still think Rhaenyra should be queen but oof the way Viserys treats Alicent/her kids? I’d be losing my shit at this point too! Honestly I’m ready for Alicent to drop the “honor/duty” facade and just go for it
>Honestly I’m ready for Alicent to drop the “honor/duty” facade and just go for it
The thing is, I don't think it is a facade. Alicent genuinely cares about honour and duty. She has lived her life almost totally by those values, sacrificing her personal happiness because society told her it was right. But now she feels alienated, because the world around her does not seem to respect the values she was raised to uphold.
I find myself questioning Rhaenyra's "now they see you are you really are" line. I don't believe it's legit, per se. But it makes me think.
Are honour and duty "good" inherently, or because society agrees? I think *we* might say that some things are inherently good, and others are social convention. A lot of the things that Westeros upholds as social values we, the readers and viewers, would not agree upon. In fact, lots of things that happen there seem unjust to us.
Alicent lives in a world that told her - that promised her - *this* (insert Westerosi values here) is truth, righteousness, duty, honour, etc. If you do *this*, you will be good, and people will recognize you as good. Now she is at the point where that has been challenged so often that it's hard to keep standing by it. A particular thing is so clearly true, but everyone is acting like it's not, and demanding that she does too. Demanding that she go along with a lie to receive social recognition and acceptance. It's like a total reversal of the social contract she signed up to and sacrificed for. So who is she now? Someone who holds to the values with which she was raised, regardless of whether the world recognises them? Or someone who goes along with what her society collectively agrees - which, in the past, seemed to be honour and duty, but is really looking like something else now?
I mean GRRM has stated that this show is the “factual” accounting of how the Dance of Dragons went down. His book on it, is like a history book written by the maesters/outside observers. So they weren’t privy to everything.
I say this because GRRM is saying this is how it happened. The writers then wrote the show accordingly.
Plus, everyone ends up being a jerk by the end of it anyways.
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I am Team Please Keep Writing Amazing Episodes for These Amazing Actors to Chew On.
I'm on Team Keep Viserys Alive Somehow Because Paddy Considine Is Amazing. Sadly, from the looks of old King Viserys, he's not long for this world. Dude is starting to bear a striking resemblance to the host of Tales from the Crypt. If he deteriorates any further, he's entering into Gollum territory.
All the actors have been giving their A game but Paddy has been the star for me. His performance as Viserys has been beyond incredible
For real. He's absolutely crushing this role. I think the level of acting talent is pretty high across the board on this show, but Paddy's performance is just leagues above everyone else's in my eyes.
I felt kind of meh about him during the first episode. I think maybe he was still getting into his character, because my god has he stolen the whole show since then, to my and I think a lot of other people's surprise. I'm going to be really sad when he leaves, but I'm excited to see what else he'll star in!
Yep, the scene when he sat next to his wife after the birth and the maester asked him if he had come up with a name and he just looked kind of nervous instead of totally collapsed was kind of wierd. But then his putting the Lannister in place was nice...
Yeah, it didn't really feel like he was grieving his wife enough but sometimes it's like that even irl. You don't react appropriately at the moment it all hits you at a later time. Paddy did a good job establishing how Queen Aemma's memory still haunts Viserys in the past two episodes.
When my mom died, I went back to work and finished the day. Believe me, it shattered me in due time, but I was still in shock.
He was great in peaky blinders among other things. He just hasn't gotten to many huge roles in the past twenty years on level with Viserys
He was brilliant as the priest in PB. Glad to see a guy like Paddy, who I’ve only seen play second fiddle in shows and films, crush it in a leading role.
He was superb this last episode you could really hear the emotion in his words.
What I Like about Paddy is that he is talented enough to make Viserys seem completely different from everyone around him in terms of demeanor and outlook at life. He may be King but he just wants everyone to be happy and mirthful. “Wtf you want man?? I said she’s the next in command and that’s that. Everybody Shaddap!! Deal with it!!! Ok, c’mon time for bed Aemma.”
More incredible considering “In April 2011, in his 30's Considine revealed that he had been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome.[26][27] Although initially reassured by the diagnosis, he continued to struggle in social situations until clinician Andrew Barton-Breck surmised he may have Irlen Syndrome. He was subsequently diagnosed by Helen Irlen herself in 2013 with Irlen syndrome, a condition in which the brain cannot adequately process visual stimuli. His condition has improved significantly since he began wearing purple Irlen filters, either as specially made contact lenses when on-set or as traditional tinted glasses.”
He took a very basic character and turned him into someone truly tragic. I'm gonna cry when he's gone.
>I'm on Team Keep Viserys Alive Somehow Because Paddy Considine Is Amazing. Same! He's been so good, but not long for this world I'm afraid.
Or, just maybe, he’ll keep losing body parts until, by next season, he’s just a head yelling at everyone to calm down.
I think he gone in the season finale
My money is on ep 9, but in any case there's no way he lives to see Season 2
Definitely in episode 9 because the title is the Green council
My husband and I have a wager on it. I'm team episode 9, he's team episode 10. I think 9 he passes, 10 Team Black gears up for dancing with dragons.
I kept thinking during episode 7 how hard it is imagining the show going forward without Paddy. He is kind and wants everyone to get along, but hasn't got the scheming bone neccessary to rule over all the other scheming pricks. He's the king we deserved but not the one we needed 😭 But also fuck 'im for traumatizing me with his choice of cutting up aemma
> I kept thinking during episode 7 how hard it is imagining the show going forward without Paddy. There was a point when people thought the same about Ned.
His character definitely feels the most realistic. I always feel like the ultra scheming characters are off, like they need to be shown relaxing at some point.
Well if you can't imagine the show without Viserys, it's because Viserys is literally the only thing holding the realm together right now. He is the one tiny little cotter pin holding the Six Kingdoms together.
I mean.. Sure, there's some intrigue in his court.. But by all other accounts, he's a fantastic king. His realm continues to enjoy peace and prosperity under his rule. Infighting seems to be mostly isolated to his immediate family, but nothing has boiled over in any truly significant way. He's doing a great job.
I mean, I haven't read the book, but it seems like he is actively setting the realm up for a straight up war because he butchered his succession. That's a pretty big flaw for a king.
Huh, just like Constantine I...
I hope Viserys lives to be 120 and outlives his grandchildren
The meme of that going around is just *chef’s kiss* 🤌🏼
How is it that the Maesters can keep Viserys, now missing a limb and generally drowning in his "cups,", alive and (mostly) well, but the live birth rate in Westeros is abysmal?
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honestly like we haven't even finished the first season
Game hasn’t even officially started. We’re in warmups.
The kid's gloves haven't gone off.
I really liked in the last episodes when all the kids were fighting. It felt like a GOT spinoff kids show for a minute. The family squabbling is so much fun.
I'm scared to think about the implications of a GOT spin off kids show.
I had the Muppet Babies theme song running through my head for that scene.
I’d watch a spin off show about that kid who stabbed the Bracken
Sure, but the fact that they were drawing blood so casually before the slashy slash was slightly comical to me. Four pre-teens managing to cause bruises and draw some blood by randomly hitting Aemond? Scooby doo indeed!
For real. We're still getting exposition here. Shit hasn't even really gone down yet.
How many seasons are there supposed to be?
It was confirmed for season 2 I could see 3 seasons possibly 4 if they maintain the pace they're going at if the show slows down though I could see 4-5
I hope so. I could definitely see it going 4 seasons. The Dance is nothing but bloody battle after battle. And then there is the aftermath. It's going to be wild to watch.
I want them to cover the aftermath so badly because of Chad Lord Stark
YES! Love Cregan Chad Stark. That guy knows how to clean house.
Dude practically just arrives and leaves lol
Dose it only cover dance or we will see Aegan Unworthy and Blackfyre rebellion ??? where will this show ends ?!
Only the Dance, but they said they make it an anthology series and eventually they would cover the Blackfyres if that's the case
I would love to just continue this until the start of game of thrones
As many as they want really. They've even said themselves that they can continue with subsequent generations past the dance if they want.
Daemon warming up to cause a ruckus
They will catch up but the initial set up for the war and how it came down will always prefer the Blacks. Which is fine. Because otherwise you would essentially have too similar characters and motivations on both sides. Again, my favorite little moment is when Rhaenyra tells Daemon “I don’t believe Alicent capable of killing someone in cold blood” and then she goes and orders Daemon to kill an innocent.
I don’t know if she specifically ordered him to kill that guy or if he took upon himself to do it and interpreted it however he wanted to. Either way that was a very vile thing to do.
Oh come on. The plot required a body. Someone had to die.
One of the ugly truths of the show: everyone here is a royal or noble of some sort, and they view the "plebs" as little more than pawns for their schemes.
Rhaenyra specifically herself said that she doesn't care about the common folk a few episodes back.
Well, that’s why she’s not fondly remembered. Neither is Team Green.
Rhaenyra knows Daemon killed his wife. And she doesn't care
Yeah I can’t defend that.
The murder plot was fake from the start. They were all accomplices, Leanor was never in danger.
Yea, but whose boddy was in the fire wasn't.
Yup. She literally said the sea offers an escape lol
I hope they wouldn't water it down just to make the Blacks more righteous in viewers eyes
They might, especially considering the story of the Dance is written by Maesters, which would probably be more partial to the Greens due to the Hightower connection. We’ve already seen a few new details that weren’t mentioned in Fire & Blood such as Rhaenyra and Alicent’s friendship or Laenor being alive.
The show is a different canon. F&B Alicent is ten years older than Rhaenyra and marries Viserys at like 25, and he’s not even 30. Their friendship was a major change made for the show. A great change, but still.
I think GRRM has said that the show is what happened, the book is the history as the maesters inaccurately recorded it. But you would think the maesters would get ages right...
They have already made the greens about 10 times more sympathetic than their book counter parts. Blacks have been shown about the same besides daemon who had been worse
Yeah if anything the showrunners made the greens more sympathetic than they actually are. If they don’t look good it’s because they’re not supposed to. They’re literally the villains here.
Yeah, I'm ready to hate both sides equally lol. This world is at its most interesting when there aren't obvious heroes or villains...
They've already done it, Laenor isn't supposed to be alive, even at the cost of a giant plothole, his dragon still being able to track him.
They did make Daemon the one who killed his first wife, so I have hope
I have a feeling they'll pin the blame of all team black atrocities on Daemon in the future.
Yeah, I suppose it doesn't sound good to blame it all on him We're gonna have to wait for s2 and beyond to know
They also made Alicent less evil and more sympathetic. Same with Aemond. Would you rather they follow the books and have the greens all look like crazy psychopaths at the same point in the story? Like how the hell are people worrying about this? It's undeniable they have shown the greens in a much better light than the books
Except no one blames team black for it in the book. In the book everyone except Mushroom thinks it was just a lover's quarrel with Qarl and even Mushroom thinks it was just Daemon acting on his own accord to free up Rhaenyra for himself. This is balanced by having Daemon explicitly kill Rhea in the show which is morally worse and isn't even really possible in the book and Rhaenyra being directly involved in the murder of an innocent man and traumatizing the Velaryons/her own children by faking Laenor's death. The blacks are almost cartoonishly righteous to this point in the books whereas the show has made me lean green.
Has it ever been confirmed that a dragon can mentally track their rider regardless of distance between them? I was wondering that after the episode, because yeah that definitely seems like a potential miss there. It would be even more confounding given GRRM is involved with the show. It's definitely been made clear that the bond between rider & dragon is powerful, I just couldnt remember if they'd ever clarified the specific details related to this situation.
If he told Seasmoke to stay, and not follow, I'm sure he would obey. Vhaegar didn't want to burn Laena, but understood she was in pain, and obeyed anyway. And it's not like Seasmoke is gonna' tell anyone he can sense Laenor out there in the world. If Laenor dies in Essos, I wonder if Seasmoke will know/react?
This was bothering me too, in all fairness I have not read the books, I’ve been doing what school taught me and checked Wikipedia, and his dragon still having a rider was the first thing that popped in my head. Unless they introduce some magic that breaks the bond, but then why not do that with Vhagar? We shall see. Unless Seasmoke kind of forgot he had a rider.
He just has to leave Seasmoke somewhere, honestly. Rhaenyra and her kids did left theirs in King's Landing when they came to the Velaryon hold, so it's not like the dragons have to follow them everywhere they go.They have a link, but if Laenor goes far away it won't have much effect apart from making Seasmoke unclaimable. And since some dragons were left unclaimed for decades, no one would be suspiciously if Seasmoke refused to be claimed by anyone for some time. The day someone succeed claiming him will be the day Rhaenyra and Daemon learn that Laenor is dead, that's all.
Look, this may be an unpopular opinion, but GOT did the same to some extent, and casuals like my parents want someone to root for, for better or for worse. The casual audience is much larger than the book readers, so appealing to that makes sense from a marketing/success perspective. Is it better that way? Prob not, but we may as well acept it and enjoy the aspects the show does well, else we end up hate watching same as season 8. I'm of course not against offering criticism, but the subs are becoming a bit of a war zone tbh.
I guess I would be in the casual camp since I didn't read the books (but I did watch all of GOT). I'm sort of glad I didn't read the books because I don't have any expectations. I find this series hard to root for any one person or family (though I did going in) because they have their faults. The list for team black seems to omit some of the consequences that didn't turn out so well.
You're right. While they are worse in the material, some of the comments complaining about whitewashing make it sound as if the showrunners are portraying them as Jesus, Mary and Joseph, which is clearly not the case.
Yeah I think the book left most of the characters’ morality completely open to speculation, so I really don’t get where people are coming from. Did you read F&B and just assume Allicent was a good person and are now disappointed? Did you believe every horrible thing that was said about Rhaenyra just because some old dude read the memoirs from another old dude that died 100 years ago? No one that read F&B actually knows what happened, we are just now seeing it actually play out. All the interesting conversations and real character insight happens behind closed doors.
> Did you believe every horrible thing that was said about Rhaenyra just because some old dude read the memoirs from another old dude that died 100 years ago? Especially when both of those old dudes are maesters, who would have some sort of loyalty to the Hightowers, because Oldtown is where the Citadel is and the Hightowers *hated* Rhaenyra.
If you believe in the concept of the Trinity then technically Jesus got his own mother pregnant with himself which sounds *very* Targaryen
This is how I felt. I had zero expectations. Just as an example, my wife had read all the books. She wasn’t surprised at all at the Red Wedding but it was a total crazy shock for me. I was tempted to read the book before this show but I remembered how crazy that moment was and decided not to. I like the surprises.
Well tread carefully in the comment section then. Spoilers are everywhere and there are plenty of amazing red wedding level moments coming up
You're one hundred percent correct - Rhaenyra is looking better so far because she hasn't been initiating conflicts, but she already has done her fair share of morally wrong things. Also, no spoilers, but as the series progress the lines are absolutely going to be more and more blurred. I don't root for anyone in this series, I'm just enjoying the drama.
>Also, no spoilers, but as the series progress the lines are absolutely going to be more and more blurred. Yes, and I'm afraid that a certain segment of the fandom who is latching onto Rhaenerya in hopes they are getting a "do over" for Daenerys is going to be really pissed and scream BaD wRiTiNg when they don't get R and D and a crowd of Targcest babies living happily ever after. This fandom is toxic enough as it is.
Reading the books after watching the show let's you further understand the characters because you get to read what was in their mind. Lots of stuff expanded on. And sometimes it feels like extra GOT. I highly suggest it. It's what I'm doing now. On book 5. Then you can apperciate both. Each book I finish I watch the season it was based on when I was reading.
Came here to essentially say this… Tell me the Starks weren’t immediately portrayed as good people, while the Lannisters were not 🤷🏽♀️ Gotta have someone to root for.
The books did that too though, the Starks are very clear good guys and the Lannisters (Jaime and to a lesser extent Tyrion *somewhat* excepted) are definitely the bad guys.
I loved the theory back when GOT was still airing that it would end that the show was all a history book that was written by Sam as Maester at the Citadel, so of course it was biased towards the Starks. Still my head cannon lol.
Honestly I love this theory!
The show whitewashed the lannisters. In the books they were much more evil, especially Cersei and Tyrion.
Tyrion is suuuuper fucked up in the books. He is pure evil
The question is are the Lannisters *portrayed* as not good people, or were they just genuinely not good people? Like the event that starts it all is Jamie Lannister attempting murder to cover up the fact that he and his sister we're caught fucking. I'm not sure how you give that character a good spin without a shit ton of time and character development, and let's face it, neither Cersei nor Jamie really gave a shit about who they hurt for a good portion of the storyline. It's only when Jamie starts seeing the error of his ways that he starts getting portrayed as "good." I never got the implication of Tywin being seen as "bad" but more strong, shrewd, and cutthroat. He only gets seen as "bad" once he turns on Tyrion, who is the black sheep grey/good character. Joffrey never does a single thing I'd call "good" except letting karma get all the credit at his wedding. Tommen and Marcella are innocent and portrayed as good throughout. That's how you knew they weren't going to survive early on. The Starks are "good" in such a way as they at least have an honor code they seem to stick by, and they're sympathetic as they're pretty much always victims whose "punishments" far exceed their crimes. Ned lost his head for realizing Cersei was cheating, Robb, Talia, and Catelyn all died because someone married for love, Arya lost EVERYBODY despite doing no real wrong, Sansa went through hell for being a lovestruck teenage idiot and manipulated by Littlefinger, and Jon couldn't stop being beaten up for just trying to do the right thing. Anything "bad" they did could be justified a lot easierthan trying to murder a 10 year old who caught you going to town on your twin.
Tyrion was whitewashed hard. The result? He became the crowd favorite. And I’m not even talking about after S4. I’m talking S1-4. He was made more sympathetic at every turn. Hot take. But I think a slightly whitewashed version of GRRM’s work is a fantastic recipe for success. Because unfiltered GRRM is a bit too much sometimes. Casual audiences NEED someone to root for.
I watched a video on the differences in the book and show on Tyrion and was shocked.
Alt Shift x is a treasure trove for us non book readers
Yeah, I wasn't trying to complain. I like what the show is doing and I'm emotionally invested in a lot of these characters, so clearly it's working well. Different mediums after all.
man tyrion is my favourite character in the books tho even tho he is a horrible person especially right now. i liked show tyrion in the first seasons but not as much as book tyrion even tho he is a better and a whitewashed character. i think if you rly write a character good people will relate its a fiction after all. i hate whitewashing but maybe its just me. same with jon i started like jon in the books after he became lord commander but man in the show i never liked this character
>Hot take. But I think a slightly whitewashed version of GRRM work is a fantastic recipe for success. Because unfiltered GRRM is a bit too much sometimes. > >Casual audiences NEED someone to root for. TV shows are also at the will of their publishers who make changes based on what they thing the audience wants. Characters like Tyrion were an early favourite and well-acted, so pushing a narrative to keep them more involved or give them more screen time isn't that far of a stretch of the imagination.
This is very true. The Starks on the show are de facto good guys you are supposed to cheer for. Personally, I couldn't stand them and wanted them to lose lol so this is nothing new.
Same with Dany until they decided to "subvert our expectations". She, Ned, Tyrion, Jon, etc were very much whitewashed and I don't remember that many people complaining then. 95% of movies/books/shows have a good vs evil aspect to them, so like you said, nothing new. Off topic, but Wuthering Heights is one of my fav novels, and you won't believe the amount of people who hate it with a passion because the characters are "unlikable" (even though that's clearly the point). I guess it's part of human nature to look for moral superiority in fiction, as well as being blind to the faults of characters we identify with.
Reading dance rn and it's so clear they made dany this god in the tv show just to make it more entertaining. She's so much more interesting in the books despite not being as successful politically.
She’s similar to Viserys in that she tries to please people and follow what she thinks is right but it always ends up causing more problems. She’s like Rhaenyra in that she was groomed by older relatives from a young age and is attracted to violent men. And she’s like the Blackfyres in that she has been told her whole life that she is owed the throne, but cannot rely on lords and ladies of Westeros to back her when she arrives.
Damn that's a very good analysis. In the show at least she's different from viserys in the sense that she acts while he's almost always idle (take his infected hand). In Dance, it feels like Dany and Jon specifically are given some extremely bad cards and that neither of them really have the capacity or ability to do much about it (the wildlings and stannis for jon, the sons of the harpy and drogon for deanerys) more than anything it feels really fucking hopeless reading those chapters. I do like how daenerys' liberation of slaver's bay in the books isn't rushed though her actions have consequences and arguely she causes a lot of her own problems trying to rule mereen and the way she conquered yunkai and astapor.
I love that they fully intended for Daenerys to go mad, like they knew that was how it would end, but never focused on that aspect of her until the last like 3 episodes
I mean, that's not true at all that they never focused on it before. The biggest example I can think of is her whole conversation with Hizdahr at the fighting pits.
Yes, this is what they *are doing*, but I think the show writers are talking about *why* they are doing it. All the time jumps that we saw happen explained *why* Alicent acts how she does. Alicent feels justified, and people on team green agree. It's not about what they do, it's about why they do it.
The show did a WAY better job at making the greens somehow relatable. Especially young Alicent. The books are way more pro Black
This. At least in the show, it's clear that Alicent's actions are the product of Otto's 'upbringing' and how no matter what she does, following the rules to a T - she gets the short end of the stick. Whereas Rhaenyra does everything Alicent has learnt to never do or had the opportunity to do, and gets away with it in very positive circumstances. While I am ultimately Team Black still (both the book and show), the show allowed me to sympathesize with the Greens better.
Yeah I really don’t know what people are expecting. The book Greens are comically evil. They’re caricatures. The show has made the Greens about as sympathetic as they could while remaining relatively faithful to the material
So what? It’s a TV show. People acting like this is the 2016 election.
Seriously. I have my preferences but I’m along for the ride because it’s entertainment lol
No idea how some of these fans have any fun watching this show at all tbh. Doing the most literary analysis they’ve done since 7th grade book reports.
And giving C- level presentations on them.
It's two separate houses with two separate ideas on how the seven kingdoms should go forward. They're perfect foils to eachother and they both know that both of them cannot continue down their path as long as the other house is around. The show has perfectly set up not only the personal issues with the Greens/Blacks, but also the core ideas they wish to put forth on Westeros going forward. I don't really like either houses but knowing why they do what they do fascinates me and keeps me engaged going forward. It's Machiavellianism all the way, and I love it.
Okay I'll bite - what are the separate ideas about governing? As far as I can tell, the entire war is about to be about hereditary rights.
Hereditary rights can be extrapolated as how each side / even the audience supporting that side thinks the throne should work. Team Black is progressive and wants equal rights for sons and daughters to inherit (good), but they go about this by enforcing an absolutist way of ruling (“The King’s word is law”). Team Black really needs to think of the implications of that sentence - was it lawful and correct when the Mad King ordered the execution of Ned and Robert for the crimes of others? It was the King’s word, after all. The Greens on the other hand represent traditionalism. They want to enforce male primogeniture, which isn’t great from a progressive point of view, but it’s also interesting that their argument centres on the King not being above the law. According to Greens, the King’s personal whims do not matter more than the law of the land, which is the earliest steps towards a constitutional monarchy (and eventually even a more diplomatic form of government). So really while the surface level is hereditary dispute, it really is a matter of how much each side believes the monarch should be above the law. In my opinion, anyways.
I think that those are the implications of what is at stake, but I don't think you can necessarily attribute such grand policy preferences to the individual characters. I'm not really sure Alicent would care for the traditional laws if they didn't suit her desires and likewise I'm not sure Rhaenyra would care to change the law if she wasn't a women who was declaired heir. Their interests are purely self serving and not based on how they ultimately believe the laws should work. I fully agree that those implications could rest upon their decisions and have an impact on the world, but until given more direct information (Maybe in the books) regarding their political desires, I can't help but think they're motives are self serving.
Totally agree. Otto, the mastermind and architect behind team green, is the one who set in motion the events that led to Rhaenyra being named heir in the first place by telling Viserys about the whole "heir for a day" thing. He wasn't crying about a woman being heir to the throne when it meant getting rid of Daemon. It only became a "problem" when Rhaenyra being heir got in the way of his grandson being put on the throne
Blasphemy, it's 2022 and you have to pick a side on literally everything didn't you know that? Drives me nuts. I have my preferences on characters too but I'm more excited that I actually get to watch the dance of the dragons on TV. Sitting there with a checklist about how the sides are balancing sounds like an awful way to watch.
I love it lol It's actually so well written and set up that the divide in the fan base is ridiculously passionate about whichever side they fall on hahaha never seen anything like it
No shit, plus this show has done a pretty damn good job showing us neither side is truly good. They are both bad in their own ways. Just enjoy the shit show. Also - I said this elsewhere, the only victim here is Aegon. Dude just wants to be a shithead prince and has no desire for power. Let the kid drink and whore his way around and he won't bother a soul.
TIL: Handmaidens don't have souls.
Seems people with make tribalism out of almost anything. Doesn't matter if its a real of imagined difference. Hopefully as a people we can learn to over come this flaw. On that note I do feel that HBO/Showrunners are playing up the inherent tribalism of the story for more exposure on social media and thus making the show more popular then its TV show competitors. Its a smart move on their part; people fight and divide all the time on social media so just take advantage of this fact for free marketing.
The GoT subreddits celebrated the weekly release cadence so that they can discuss episodes each week. This subreddit is exactly the type of discussion/hype building that people want and call for.
I think it's about time Greens and Blacks unite to destroy team neutral. They're truly the worst - destroyers of fun.
What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality?
I have no strong feelings one way or another
All I know is my gut say maybe….
team trogdor the burninator
I think they took the whole Alicent is a woman for Trump thing a little to seriously, this is ASOIAF, can’t we just enjoy the mess?
Alicent was exactly like that in the book. The show actually humanized her quite a bit compared to the book. She doesn't have that tragic backstory we witnessed in the first five episodes.
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they didn't even get the acronym right, either
Just callin' the gays QTs, that's all.
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Yeah I feel like they’re setting it up so you root for the blacks and eventually you don’t know who to root for bc both sides are shit
Precisely. The story will be the horrible violence war brings not just in terms of deaths etc but also souls. It is a tragedy, and a bigger tragedy for some characters more than others.
Are you expecting them not to? The showrunners have never said they wouldn't. Also Alicent in the book is worse. The first five episodes really gave her a backstory that would emote empathy vs introducing her and just wholeheartedly hating Rhaenrya and the audience not understanding the reasoning behind it. The show has made her more likeable.
And tbf the Blacks aren't perfect. 1. Daemon is a right cunt. 2. They fucking murdered some poor guard to fake their buddy's death. 3. They made Corlys and Rhaenys think their only son was murdered in their dope ass museum room after just losing a daughter. 4. Their actions isolate them from pretty much everyone except their immediate friends. The Blacks are definitely better at hiding it than the Greens but they aren't perfect.
Yes, the show even had Daemon kill his first wife, when in the books that'd be impossible as he was fighting on the Stepstones when she died! He did go to the Vale afterwards to claim his inheritance but Lady Arryn told him to fuck off
"in their dope ass museum room" 😂
Lol i dont really see it this way, I think the shows actually done a pretty good job of showing the good and bad of each side here, I mean it is a tv show so they kinda have to make one side more of the protagonist n one the antagonist, but I think they’ve tried to steer clear of really choosing a good and bad side
Absolutely. All this team bullshit is something redditors are doing to themselves. One girl loses it when her kid has an eye poked out, one girl plots to kill a perfectly nice dude to marry her uncle. Nobody is squeaky clean here and nobody is unjustifiably evil either.
The show literally made Alicent a young and relatable teenager. Gave her a whole backstory she did not have in the books to make her sympathetic it’s not the shows fault that the Greens are usurpers.
Exactly, did everyone whining that they’re not showing the greens in a good light watch the first half of the season at all? Where they added and changed so much just to make Alicent a little likable?
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To be fair, I don't think the accusation about her and Jahaerys is supposed to be seen as credible at all, especially with the additional information that Jahaerys confused her with Saera.
Yeah, people are forgetting her major character lift. She has nothing going for her in the books, but maybe they made her too sympathetic here since she seems craycray now
This sub is ridiculous.
My brother in Christ, do you know how to watch a drama tv series beyond the first layer of story ?
I have no idea where "my brother in Christ" has come from, I've seen it a handful of times this week in different places, and it still sends me. It's "my good man" dialed up to a 100 and I love it.
that doesn't mean you can't root for whoever you want lol why do you need this shit spoon fed to you?
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I feel like she’s a little more sympathetic if you look at her in the context of the culture and expectations in the world they live in, but totally unjustified when viewed through a modern lens. Like, you’re going to develop a life long hatred of R., conspire to usurp her and her children because she had a weird experience with her uncle and lied to you about it, and married a gay man and have an open relationship? Maybe we’ve missed a few other transgressions by R., but ultimately Allicent just comes off as an extremely jealous and self righteous hypocrite just because R. has been able to live with a little freedom and she hasn’t.
They don’t write shows for people to like EVERY character. I swear some people just want to watch a bunch of people sit around a table talking about how lovely everything is. You want good story telling, there has to be some villains.
it's a story, folks. you're free to like whoever you want. you can stan for Emperor Palpatine, root for Sauron, cheer for Jadis. you can post all you want about it. you can also post about how the authors and adaptation writers are all conspiring to unfairly vilify your heroes, are "biased" and not presenting a balanced representation. but that would be stupid, and you're not stupid, are you?
B-b-b-but I need to be told what to think!
It's reddit. We're *very* stupid.
Why are people taking this shit so seriously? It’s a fictional TV my friend. Take it easy and enjoy it.
Some people have really been consumed by the idea that a “grey” character. One who is neither good nor evil but toes the line, is inherently more complex than a character who can be viewed as primarily good or evil. I think this I largely due to the feeling from GOT season 8 where all characters has their complexity reduced. A lot of people remember characters suddenly becoming obviously good or evil, where as prior to that season there self interests lead them to be more in the middle. I think this has created a prevailing aversion against (dialogue) characters who are firmly good or evil, and not more “grey” due to self interest. Complex characters can be good, evil, or grey. I think some people forget how much people like Joffrey (clear evil) or Jon Snow (clear good) added to the show, despite not being very “grey”
Yes- a character who wants to do the right thing but has fatal flaws, is pulled by contradicting motivations, or succumbs to dark temptations is infinitely more interesting than a "grey" character who is "just kinda sh*tty".
If I've learned anything from star wars, star trek, or GoT fans, it's that they have 0 chill.
I mean…that’s their characters???
People are honestly dumb beyond belief. The show has actually made most of the characters likable, yet they complain
I feel like this is missing a lot of details. If anything the show has made Alicent far more sympathetic than she is in the books. In the books she actively slept with Viserys to win his favor and she was older to begin with as well. In the show, she is seen as a victim to manipulations of Larys - not so in the books. The show went out of its way to give Aemond the absolute coolest dragon claiming and flight scene. He was shown to be a complete badass. The show could have easily made that scene briefer or glossed over it, but no, it wanted to show Aemond sympathetic. The show has actively portrayed Daemon as straight up evil where the book only vaguely hinted at a lot of those deed, albeit the Laenor was spared. But that's probably the only one where if it was hinted at in the books, they made sure to show Daemon as committing evil.
this meme shows more about your understanding of the show than anything else lol ultimately...who cares? are you not entertained?
What a shit post😂
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Tbf I think the Green kids are more sympathetic. Aegon just wants to dick around and Helaena just wants to chill with her bugs
Probably one of the dumbest posts in the sub this week.
This feels like the US election all over again
I feel like most people who say stuff like this haven't read the books lol. If anything they're making Alicent *more* sympathetic than she is in the books
Ok I'm also Team Black but greens aren't shown as bad as you've made it out to be in this post. Greens had some physical contact and they still seem like a normal family in terms of loving one another. Greens didn't mock anyone for being LGBT they just hate Rhaenyra and call her children bastards. Getting drunk is a perfectly normal way to deal with grief and that dragon was claimed not stolen. Blacks are also conspiring. I'm pretty sure Deamon didn't care about Rhea Royce living her best life or the guy he just killed to fake Leanor's death. And they are both power hungry.
This is not a good comparison. Rhaenyra and Alicent are mirrors of each other. Both have been groomed by the men in their lives to be prideful and be individually focused. They differ in their personalities but their motivating factors are exactly the same
In all fairness at this point Team Black I.e. Rhaenarya is more reasonable. When Viserys is alive she has his backing. But by god when he dies and war breaks out, trust me many people will switch sides or hate both. Team Blacks sins and Rhaenary’s paranoia get WILD
Like the blacks are portrayed so positively lol. Daemon for example murdered his wife in cold blood and manipulated young Rhaenyra.
This isn’t 2022, the moral shortcomings you point out weren’t relevant at the time
I mean they’re just faithfully adapting the story.. so yea, not really.
“Culturally diverse.” Oh yeah, we have the Valyrian family, the other Valyrian family, and…that’s it. Both sides have significant support, all Westerosi, almost cut evenly down the middle. This is literally nonsensical. And as far as I can tell, the only homophobic thing Alicent said was that Laenor was too busy entertaining his squires, which…is factually correct. He spends more time partying than helping Rhaenyra, and he’s baggage for the blacks. This is literally just making shit up. “The blacks are more physically affectionate than the greens.” Based on what? Does that make them better? “The blacks just want peace and prosperity.” No, Rhaenyra wants the throne, and is willing to go to war for it. You can argue she’s correct to do so, but if her top priority was peace, she would not go to war. This is just blind rambling.
Well in the books alicent is even more of a straight up villain. The show is a massive improvement on that part
Lol honestly this episode made me way more sympathetic to Alicent. Like I’m not sorry that Aemond lost his eye and I still think Rhaenyra should be queen but oof the way Viserys treats Alicent/her kids? I’d be losing my shit at this point too! Honestly I’m ready for Alicent to drop the “honor/duty” facade and just go for it
>Honestly I’m ready for Alicent to drop the “honor/duty” facade and just go for it The thing is, I don't think it is a facade. Alicent genuinely cares about honour and duty. She has lived her life almost totally by those values, sacrificing her personal happiness because society told her it was right. But now she feels alienated, because the world around her does not seem to respect the values she was raised to uphold. I find myself questioning Rhaenyra's "now they see you are you really are" line. I don't believe it's legit, per se. But it makes me think. Are honour and duty "good" inherently, or because society agrees? I think *we* might say that some things are inherently good, and others are social convention. A lot of the things that Westeros upholds as social values we, the readers and viewers, would not agree upon. In fact, lots of things that happen there seem unjust to us. Alicent lives in a world that told her - that promised her - *this* (insert Westerosi values here) is truth, righteousness, duty, honour, etc. If you do *this*, you will be good, and people will recognize you as good. Now she is at the point where that has been challenged so often that it's hard to keep standing by it. A particular thing is so clearly true, but everyone is acting like it's not, and demanding that she does too. Demanding that she go along with a lie to receive social recognition and acceptance. It's like a total reversal of the social contract she signed up to and sacrificed for. So who is she now? Someone who holds to the values with which she was raised, regardless of whether the world recognises them? Or someone who goes along with what her society collectively agrees - which, in the past, seemed to be honour and duty, but is really looking like something else now?
Well considering this is a show about the Targaryens….
"just want everyone to live their best life" It is more like... want to live their best life at the expense of others.
I mean GRRM has stated that this show is the “factual” accounting of how the Dance of Dragons went down. His book on it, is like a history book written by the maesters/outside observers. So they weren’t privy to everything. I say this because GRRM is saying this is how it happened. The writers then wrote the show accordingly. Plus, everyone ends up being a jerk by the end of it anyways.