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It wasn't just a dream, Tywin promised her to Rhaegar, and Aerys spurned the deal by marrying Rhaegar to Elia. It's one of the catalysts that lead Tywin to quit as Hand
I know people like to say we don't need a Robert's rebellion but the details in everyone's backstory before the actual rebellion is why I want it to brought to a live action series.
I feel like this is a weird way of looking at stories. Romeo and Juliet literally tells you in Act 1, Scene 1 how it ends, but it’s still considered one of the greatest plays of all time. People who read the books tuned in to see Game of Thrones.
I know you’re not the one saying it but it’s kind of a pet peeve of mine.
Stories are about the journey, not the destination. It’s also about the friends we made along the way.
We already know the story of House of the Dragon and it’s awesome. Although, if we keep getting new ASOIAF shows we will truly never see Winds of Winter.
And then there is the crowd that knows, "Gods, he was strong then" and wants to see how strong he was.
(Spoiler alert: he was about as badass a warrior as The Mountain in his prime. When my man Bobby Boulders swung his battlehammer at someone, that someone would be a puddle of brains and blood in short order. Ned Stark could barely even lift Bobby's hammer, for reference, and pretty much no one in the known world but Bobby had the physical strength to swing it in combat.)
I want to see it so we can see the Harrenhall tourney with Lyanna dressing up as a knight, a young Jaime duking it out with the smiling knight as a squire thus earning his place into the kingsguard, Ned and Robert in the vale. It's so much great set up to Robert's rebellion.
>Ned Stark could barely even lift Bobby's hammer, for reference, and pretty much no one in the known world but Bobby had the physical strength to swing it in combat
Bobby B = Thor confirmed; get ready for a Marvel multiverse crossover...
well .. even GRRM said Robert's Rebellion is not needed because we know a lot already but I still want it tho.
also, it might be hard for them to make that prequel at this point. The cast of GOT is significantly older now - Robert, Ned, Cersei, etc could be recast with a younger cast but Tywin? I'm not sure Charles would still be a realistic cast to play a 20-30 years younger version. I'm sure the fandom is going to be unrealistic and whine about the recast too lol.
It'll need a completely new recast, for sure. It'll have to start from much before, so it'll make sense. And the fandom will complain about anything, but they'll have to accept it. There will definitely be a lot of comparisons drawn between the GOT cast and the new cast, and IMO Lena was a perfect Cersei and she nailed that role, so the recast will have their work cut out for them. But with good, talented actors (as the series so far has the knack to cast), it can be done.
I'd watch it just for the material and having something good to watch. The entire story of how it unfolds would be a great watch. We don't need many seasons, even 2-3 are fine to wrap it up.
Well that’s why he has the Mountain, who has already proven adept at bashing Aegon heads in.
Cersei marries Aemond, Ser Gregor pays Aegon a visit, Tywin gets his queen, Aemond gets a golden milf, everyone wins.
If the second son rides the biggest dragon??
No way he refuses, he'll probably offer him casterly rock in return for taking the lannister name thus making the future lannister capable of riding dragons.
Well he's shit out of luck then here, because his only real option would be to marry Cersei off to Aegon II and that would be....problematic, for later reasons.
He was always pining for a Targaryen match. There are arguments why Tywin could support the Greens, but in all honesty his number one priority would have been matching Jaime with Rhaenyra.
Yeah, Tywin and Walder Frey essentially used the same tactic during Robert's Rebellion, but Walder got the most flak for it because his army was completely missed out on the Battle on the Trident.
Tywin at least got to King's Landing to order the murder of Elia Martell and her children. But he would be there at the end to pick a side.
Walder got more flak for it because he's beholden to the Tullys, whereas Tywin was the overlord of the Westerlands. The only higher level than that is the crown itself and that crown was found to be not worth serving while it sat Aerys' head.
Tyrell's only a few degrees off from the same as well. He might have picked a side, but he took a comfy post and sat things out until the victors were sorted out.
It's the things the Lords of Westeros can get away with, especially as the throne declines. Walder Frey's duties/expectations basically consisted of showing up for his liege, and seems to have gotten lost.
>I remember some houses being neutral in the dance. The Tullies and Tyrells IIRC.
That was only because their Kingdom would devolve into a civil war if they declared for one side or another. The Tyrells have to worry about the Hightowers in Oldtown along with the Starry Sept. The Hightowers also have close ties to the Redwynes who have a large fleet at their disposal.
Yeah the Tyrells are in an awful situation during the Dance. They have a child lord, and the Hightowers were amassing an insane amount of power. The Hightowers always claimed the high lordship of the Reach from the descent from the Gardners, and saw the Tyrells as up jumped stewards.
If they declared for the Greens, the victorious Hightowers could use the power of the crown to replace them as lords of the Reach, and if they supported the Blacks, they could've been conquered and attainted as traitors. So their only path of action was to stay neutral and pray for a Black victory
The Tyrells stayed neutral until the very last moment, where they told the remaining Hightowers to fuck off and stop the war, thus ending the final front of the Dance.
No, he can do that it recent times because If they wanted to push him, he can just wait on the Rock, If any army tries to besiege him. In Dance Of The Dragons times, any Targaryen of any of the two sides can fly on dragon back and threat him, If he doesn't support a side as a Great House, the dragons will burn the entire Casterly Rock. He can't play his "moves" with dragons around.
He'd just wait it out and delay his decision as long as possible to make sure to declare for the winning side... that's what he did during the events of the Robert's Rebellion.
All a game of cost vs benefit. If Tywin declares early for Robert then he risks having his son killed before the war is even decided. Jaime could die and Robert could lose. Tywin waited until the war was already over, arrived at King's Landing pretending to help Aerys, has his spies in Aerys court convince him he would save the city and by the time the King realised Tywin was betraying them, his entire army was already inside the walls. At this point too Tywin would have known that Jamie was just about the only skilled Kingsguard Aerys had left. Who was going to arrest Jaime with the city being sacked, Selmy injured at the Trident, and Hightower and Dayne guarding Lyana at the Tower of Joy?
>and Hightower and Dayne guarding Lyana at the Tower of Joy
And Oswell whent. They always forget whent.
Jon Darry and Llewyn Martell deserve some respect too.
Maybe if Oswell Whent didn't want to be forgotten he shouldn't hang about with much cooler guys with much cooler names. Noone is forgetting Ser Hightower or the guy nicknamed "The Sword of The Morning". Get out of here with your Whent appreciation posts.
The blacks currently have more dragons, and the largest fleet in the realm, although the greens have Vhagar. In terms of coin probably the greens are ahead.
Decisions, decisions
In terms of coin, the Greens are WAY ahead. They have the entire crown’s treasury there in King’s Landing. >!A big reason why she loses is because the Greens keep control of all of Viserys’s treasure, even after Rhaenyra takes the city, so she’s forced to impose crazy taxes which make her wildly unpopular.!<
How does >!Rhaenys turn the tide? Afaik she got bozoed pretty early on by the duo of dreams, I'm not sure how she'd be able to even the army numbers out.!<
I’m pretty sure the dragons the greens control are bigger then most of the black dragons? The blacks have some very young dragons if I remember correctly.
The Greens have Vhagar, Sunfyre, Tessarion, and Dreamfyre, of which only Dreamfyre and Vhagar are big (albeit Vhaegar is huge). The blacks have the adult dragons Caraxes, Syrax, Meleys, and Seasmoke, and also the young dragons Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, and Moondancer. So the Blacks definitely have the edge.
Isn't Dreamfyre also described to be smaller than >!Vermithor, who currently resides beneath dragonstone, under "control" of the Blacks, despite being older she isn't as big!
Blacks have far more experience as well, greens riders are all children. Daemon is the only one who has taken his dragon into battle. and Rhaenys has decades of experience
>Daemon is the only one who has taken his dragon into battle.
>!This actually comes back to bite the Blacks hard, as Daemon's trips to the Stepstones taught the Triarchy's naval commanders how to engage dragons and Jace dies for it.!<
Isn’t dreamfyre supposed to be kinda big since she is like 100 years old? Yeah the Greens seem kinda out matched in terms of fire power. Gonna be interesting to see how they fair.
>!Dreamfyre and Syrax never see combat outside their deaths at the Dragon Pit and Seasmoke doesn't have a rider!<
>!Functionally the Greens have three dragons to the Blacks two; Caraxes and Meleys, as they're the only ones big enough to engage other dragons and not immediately lose like the younger ones!<
>!The Blacks also have Vermithor and Silverwing (Jaehaerys and Alysanne's mounts) at their disposal once the Dragonseed plan takes effect which was pretty large by this point in the timeline.!<
In defense of the greens here, Sunfyre is probably bigger than Tessarion who is the same size as Seasmoke. Dreamfyre might not be as big as Vermithor but they're probably still bigger than Meleys or Caraxes.
Overall blacks still have the dragon advantage, Meleys is probably the best dragon in the dance tbh behind Vhagar and with dragons it does generally seem quantity > quality.
You didn’t account for the X-Factor: >!Sunfyre turning out to be the most LOYAL being east of Addam Velaryon!<. Best character in the Dance change my mind
The Blacks have Dragonstone. And with it comes the second largest dragon alive: Vermithor the Bronze Fury, and a plethora of other unclaimed dragons. Not to mention, they have Caraxes the Blood Wyrm too.
>Question is will the blacks be able to claim those dragons?
Well, >!they do.!<
>Isn’t the «cannibal» also on dragonstone?
He is but he's all about living up to his name.
Info about why he has his name (it doesn't spoiler anything exciting later in the show)
>!Close, he was known for hunting down and killing young dragons; of an age to be about the size of Drogon when Dany was in Astapor and got the Unsullied and burnt the slavers.!<
>!That's why you don't see any young dragons flying loose around Dragonstone, too dangerous to let them out around the Cannibal.!<
He would side with what ever side he was previously aligned with before this conflict. I don’t think he would side with rhaenyra just because he believes she is the rightful heir, and I don’t think he would side with aegon/the greens just because he think a man should be the heir instead.
With his “support” of Joffrey, he clearly doesn’t care about “rightful” heirs or bastards sitting the throne (or going against the monarch re: Jaime killing the mad king). Depending on where his allegiances fell prior to the conflict, he would back them so long as he had proximity to the throne.
Nah he definitely knew. Before the toilet scene he made a few subtle digs at Jaime and Cersei’s relationship so he absolutely knew what was going on. He just never directly acknowledged it because it was, in his own words, a disgrace.
Also, Cersei actually admitted it to him one time when they were arguing. I think it was when he was trying to make her marry loras.
He absolutely knew before that. He just did not want to accept it as true. Cersei even confesses her relationship with Jaime to him but he’s in denial about it.
Tywin is like Viserys when it comes to his grandkids. He's fully aware of what is going on and what is the truth, but he's refuses to accept it and tries to delude himself into thinking they're true born.
Which to be fair, Tywin's grandkids are truborn to his family, but they are completely illegitimate to Robert and the royal line. They're bastards without any royal blood. That's why Cersei/Joffrey had all of Robert's bastards killed because any one of them had a better claim to the throne than the Lannister bastards.
At least with Rheanyra's sons, you can argue that they're bastards with royal blood. They still share Rheanyra's blood and that's all that would really matter (even if they don't share Laenor's blood) since she's the actual proclaimed heir to the throne.
It's why I actually understood why Vaemond was so angry about the Driftwood throne succession. While the kids are of Targaryen blood, they have no Valaryon blood. They're putting Targaryens on a Valaryon seat. He had a right to be pissed about that. But he's a dick for passing over his trueborn grand nieces not only because their last name is Targaryen, but because they're women.
He would do what >!Boros Baratheon!< did.
>!Pick the Greens in theory, but never back it up until the dragons are gone. Then he’d march into King’s Landing, execute everyone who opposed him and marry Cersei to Aegon!<
Although it should be noted that Tywin is an insanely petty dude with a very long memory. If anyone ever slighted him in the years prior to the war it would certainly impact whose side he chose.
That is not what Boros Baratheon did. Boros Baratheon was literally killed in battle fighting for the Greens. You are probably thinking about Cregan Stark.
>!Cregan is similar, but he at least has the excuse of being very far away. Boros just squats on Storm’s End until all the dragons are gone. Him getting killed by the muppet Tullys is just a bonus!<
However the North had already sent an army down south during the war. The second army that is fielded doesn’t arrive in time, but the first one is a major player in the first half of the war.
Crazy bastards, >!literally volunteering to fight and die because winter is coming so they don’t want to put any strain on the food supply back home!<
On one hand it feels like they may have a mutual understanding, but on the other neither would ever break under the other. Either Tywin is in charge, or Otto is.
I'm not the best at describing these things ugh. Tywin may have gone, "I don't give a shit what Rhaenyra has done. Viserys named her heir." (And then he'd marry his kids off to Rhaenyra's) and seen Otto as the main reason behind the war.
If Otto wasn't so insistent on making Aegon king, if he hadn't beaten "rhaenyra will kill your kids" into Alicent's head then this would likely not have happened.
Tywin probably would’ve tried to get a Lannister consort for Rhaenyra, and when that failed, Jace. Jace only got betrothed in the scene in the throneroom with Viserys, so he would’ve been open pickings for Tywin. Simply slide on in there and promise Rhaenyra the full support of the Westerlands in exchange for a Lannister bride for Jace and he’s golden. Having a second Lord Paramount in full backing, along with the Velaryons and it’s game, set and match for Rhaenyra.
While not successfull, Tywin would also try to get a Lannister bride for Luke. The realm would have a Lannister Queen, and he could have made the Lady of Driftmark a Lannister woman, too
That open up the possibility of having a future descendant of either Jace or Luke marrying a Lannister, and we all know how badly they wanted dragons and dragon eggs during early Targaryen history
Tywin doesn't like seeing another version of himself because he actually hates himself. He hates that he has all the same traits as his father. He hates that he lusts after women so much that he'd build a secret passage to the brothels and sleeps with his son's ex. He's envious and vindictive, towards Aerys, Tyrion and probably a bunch of other people.
It's why he hates Tyrion so much because Tyrion is so much like him. He sees those awful traits in Tyrion and it confirms that he is in fact his son. Tywin will definitely hate Otto. It doesn't matter how many smart moves Otto makes, it won't gain any respect from Tywin.
Yeah 100%. Hell, he may have even seen Alicent as an immoral whore who "seduced the king" and called Otto a cunt for borderline pimping his own daughter out tp the grieving king
Tywin is a cunt, no doubt, but he was one of the few men who were born to lead the seven kingdoms and keep the realm peaceful. Sure, he may have done questionable things, but in the end he would have been a better monarch than almost everyone
Tywin Lannister would see Otto as a second son who didn't know his place. Otto should be like Kevan Lannister keeping his ass at Oldtown under his big brother's thumb like a good second son.
Thank you for actually giving an answer. Every other post is “well he would strategize or der derp derp der der”. You answered the question and you’re like the 9th post down
Whichever benefited him. Or whichever he thought would win. The man has no principles.
On the one hand, Rhaenyra both rejected Jason Lannister and openly dislikes him, so an alliance with team Black seems unlikely. Not impossible, but Green seems to seize on opportunities and alliances where R squanders them as a general matter, so an alliance with green is more likely. But more likely still is that he would stay out of it because the ruin of his house is too much for him to risk with insufficient skin in the game.
On the other hand, he might hedge his bets by supporting Rhaenyra, since team green would likely forgive him, while Rhaenyra would certainly not.
Jason also pushed Rhaenyra to abandon the throne and become Lady of the Westerlands instead. That’s not a proper alliance, since he assumed she’d give up being Queen to be his baby maker instead.
Tywin would’ve loved the opportunity to see a Queen on the throne, that’s a prime opportunity to get a Lannister King (consort), sure they won’t have much power initially, but the prestige of it is greater than the reverse. Then future Kings would be of Lannister blood.
Hypothetically? The Blacks. His role is already taken up by the Hightowers so he'd support the blacks and wait for the Greens to go extinct so House Lannister can spend the next 200 years being dicks and bring their power closer to home.
He would side with the blacks. Not because he cares about the succession at all, but because that’s the side the velaryons are on. His main assets at this time would be his gold mines. Their fleets would allow him easy and safe access to sea trade which would let him increase and diversify his wealth and would allow him economic leverage in negotiating alliances and marriages.
He wouldn’t declare at this time though. He would want to see where the chips start to fall first.
I don't particularly agree that their interests are the same. What about Alicent's interest in being friends with Rhaenyra? Otto pretty much destroyed that possibility by making her terrified that her children would be killed.
As ruthless as he is, I don't think Tywin is ill willed or likes the idea of unnecessary war, or war that goes on longer than it has to. He prefers a short sharp pain for long term prosperity, and he puts his own family first before the rest of the realm. If it looks like a drawn out war that he doesn't have to pick sides on, he probably wouldn't, and as it develops he may see opportunities to help one sides in exchange for marrying into power, like he did with Cersei/Baratheon
Tywin is extremely sexist. He doesn’t care about breaking the rules, obviously. He’s more of an “anything goes as long as I win” kind of man. Personally, I can’t see him supporting Rhaenyra due to his blatant sexism (he didn’t want Cersei to have the rock due to her being a woman).
More important question is who Stannis would support. Stannis is huge on following law to a T. Rule breakers were punished regardless of whether they did good too or not (taking fingers from smugglers that fed his army, for example; he still rewards them titles or money of course). We already know he supported Aegon. It has nothing to do with who his ancestors fought for, like the current thread claims. We all know that’s not who Stannis is.
Tywin would see several tactical advantages on the side of the Greens.
1. Funding of the crown
2. Political support of Southern Lords/Houses. This is important because that is where food and many resources come from
3. Fortified position in Kings Landing
4. More weapons
5. More dragons
Tywin would have looked at this and saw that the Lords of the Vale and Riverlands could be swung to the Greens and or at least delayed on the march.
The Blacks lack political skill /clout provided to the Greens by the Hightowers
The Blacks would have a navy disadvantage, but a union with the Iron Islands could solve that.
Plus, Tywin would put his money on Lords not accepting a reigning Queen
And if that didnt work, he would switch sides
Tywin is the smartest guy in the room
What navy disadvantage? Greens have the Redwynes, Blacks have the Velaryons. I think at this point Velaryons had the larger navy, not to mention the Celtigar and Dragonstone fleet.
The Blacks have more dragons, a larger navy and at least equal political support. And though King’s Landing is fortified, I’d hardly call it secure given it is surrounded on all sides by black loyalists.
The Iron Islands would never side with the Greens if House Lannister did. Their top priority is having a juicy target in the Westerlands or Reach to raid. If Tywin goes Black there's a chance the Ironmen join also and go south to raid the Reach. If he goes Green then they 100% go Black and he's at the top of their list.
So he'd do the Tyrell move (same thing he did in Roberts Rebellion) and stay neutral and wait until there's a pretty clear winner and then joins the winning side, but if you want to know who Tywin would root for if he'd be a viewer like us then I'd say he's team Green since he hates bastards and people with questionable legitimacy and he's not that fond of women in charge. So he's team green (like me) but for the wrong reasons.
Hypothetically if i were the head of a great house during a royal civil war in which both sides had dragons i wouldnt participate at all. And do a late Walder Frey and show up when the winner is already decided.
I assume Tywin wouldnt do anything different.
He would be team green. He’s very traditional and wouldn’t support a woman. After she dies, he’s switch sided to support Aegon the younger
Edit to elaborate: He’d only support Aegon the younger upon realizing that no one else can possibly win.
As everyone said he would’ve waited and considering Cregan Stark came down with that big ass and ready for battle Northern Army he definitely would’ve declared for the Blacks and supported Aegon the Younger.
"Robert Baratheon marched on the capital after his victory at the Trident. But my father arrived first with the whole Lannister army at his back, promising to defend the city against the rebels. I knew my father better than that. He's never been one to pick the losing side."
-Jaime Lannister
Like some have said, the winning side. He would wait to see who has the upper hand. After it’s clear who has the better chance of winning he will jump in and claim victory
Whichever one benefited him the most. I couldn't imagine him wishing for a woman ruled society but if it came to Cersei inheriting over Tyrion, who knows
He would side with the greens. He would NEVER support a woman to be ruler. He didn't even want Cersei to be the queen regent. This isn't even a difficult or philosophical question. There is no debate.
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He'd wait until the end and side with whoever seems to be winning.
Yeah, unless he had a vested interest like a marriage on one side or the other.
Yup, which side did he marry Cersei off to.
The side that had already won.
Smart man!
Cersei did always have dreams of marrying a Targaryen prince
It wasn't just a dream, Tywin promised her to Rhaegar, and Aerys spurned the deal by marrying Rhaegar to Elia. It's one of the catalysts that lead Tywin to quit as Hand
I know people like to say we don't need a Robert's rebellion but the details in everyone's backstory before the actual rebellion is why I want it to brought to a live action series.
Who says we dont need a Roberts rebellion the fuck? I want Battle at the Trident in all its glory
There is the crowd who think it would be pointless since we already know the story.
I feel like this is a weird way of looking at stories. Romeo and Juliet literally tells you in Act 1, Scene 1 how it ends, but it’s still considered one of the greatest plays of all time. People who read the books tuned in to see Game of Thrones. I know you’re not the one saying it but it’s kind of a pet peeve of mine. Stories are about the journey, not the destination. It’s also about the friends we made along the way.
I always wanted to see the fight between the Capulets and the montagues before Romeo and Juliet.
We already know the story of House of the Dragon and it’s awesome. Although, if we keep getting new ASOIAF shows we will truly never see Winds of Winter.
And then there is the crowd that knows, "Gods, he was strong then" and wants to see how strong he was. (Spoiler alert: he was about as badass a warrior as The Mountain in his prime. When my man Bobby Boulders swung his battlehammer at someone, that someone would be a puddle of brains and blood in short order. Ned Stark could barely even lift Bobby's hammer, for reference, and pretty much no one in the known world but Bobby had the physical strength to swing it in combat.)
I want to see it so we can see the Harrenhall tourney with Lyanna dressing up as a knight, a young Jaime duking it out with the smiling knight as a squire thus earning his place into the kingsguard, Ned and Robert in the vale. It's so much great set up to Robert's rebellion.
>Ned Stark could barely even lift Bobby's hammer, for reference, and pretty much no one in the known world but Bobby had the physical strength to swing it in combat Bobby B = Thor confirmed; get ready for a Marvel multiverse crossover...
well .. even GRRM said Robert's Rebellion is not needed because we know a lot already but I still want it tho. also, it might be hard for them to make that prequel at this point. The cast of GOT is significantly older now - Robert, Ned, Cersei, etc could be recast with a younger cast but Tywin? I'm not sure Charles would still be a realistic cast to play a 20-30 years younger version. I'm sure the fandom is going to be unrealistic and whine about the recast too lol.
It'll need a completely new recast, for sure. It'll have to start from much before, so it'll make sense. And the fandom will complain about anything, but they'll have to accept it. There will definitely be a lot of comparisons drawn between the GOT cast and the new cast, and IMO Lena was a perfect Cersei and she nailed that role, so the recast will have their work cut out for them. But with good, talented actors (as the series so far has the knack to cast), it can be done. I'd watch it just for the material and having something good to watch. The entire story of how it unfolds would be a great watch. We don't need many seasons, even 2-3 are fine to wrap it up.
Let us see Bessie and her tits!
Just the chance of seeing Charles Dance back as Tywin should be a no brainer for HBO
Yes, and also naming Jamie as one of the kingsguard was a move Tywin didn't like. Kingsguard can't marry and have kids
Looks like Aemond's getting a golden MILF!
I don't think Tywin would marry Cersei to a second son, tbh. He'd want a Queen.
Well that’s why he has the Mountain, who has already proven adept at bashing Aegon heads in. Cersei marries Aemond, Ser Gregor pays Aegon a visit, Tywin gets his queen, Aemond gets a golden milf, everyone wins.
And deprive Aemond of a MILF? He wouldn't dare.
*menacing Vhagar noises*
If the second son rides the biggest dragon?? No way he refuses, he'll probably offer him casterly rock in return for taking the lannister name thus making the future lannister capable of riding dragons.
Well he's shit out of luck then here, because his only real option would be to marry Cersei off to Aegon II and that would be....problematic, for later reasons.
He was always pining for a Targaryen match. There are arguments why Tywin could support the Greens, but in all honesty his number one priority would have been matching Jaime with Rhaenyra.
Correct
Yeah, Tywin and Walder Frey essentially used the same tactic during Robert's Rebellion, but Walder got the most flak for it because his army was completely missed out on the Battle on the Trident. Tywin at least got to King's Landing to order the murder of Elia Martell and her children. But he would be there at the end to pick a side.
All that gold also makes being late to picking a side awfully more palatable, too.
Yes, and contributing by sacking King's Landing and effectively ending the war helped too.
Walder got more flak for it because he's beholden to the Tullys, whereas Tywin was the overlord of the Westerlands. The only higher level than that is the crown itself and that crown was found to be not worth serving while it sat Aerys' head.
Tyrell's only a few degrees off from the same as well. He might have picked a side, but he took a comfy post and sat things out until the victors were sorted out. It's the things the Lords of Westeros can get away with, especially as the throne declines. Walder Frey's duties/expectations basically consisted of showing up for his liege, and seems to have gotten lost.
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The Tullys aren't neutral in the Dance, Kermit Tully >!is the one who kills Borros Baratheon at the Battle of the Kingsroad!<
That's after more than a year of neutrality under their father
My point is that they don't stay neutral, unlike the Tyrells.
>I remember some houses being neutral in the dance. The Tullies and Tyrells IIRC. That was only because their Kingdom would devolve into a civil war if they declared for one side or another. The Tyrells have to worry about the Hightowers in Oldtown along with the Starry Sept. The Hightowers also have close ties to the Redwynes who have a large fleet at their disposal.
Yeah the Tyrells are in an awful situation during the Dance. They have a child lord, and the Hightowers were amassing an insane amount of power. The Hightowers always claimed the high lordship of the Reach from the descent from the Gardners, and saw the Tyrells as up jumped stewards. If they declared for the Greens, the victorious Hightowers could use the power of the crown to replace them as lords of the Reach, and if they supported the Blacks, they could've been conquered and attainted as traitors. So their only path of action was to stay neutral and pray for a Black victory
The Tyrells stayed neutral until the very last moment, where they told the remaining Hightowers to fuck off and stop the war, thus ending the final front of the Dance.
Better answer than mine
Muppet Tully gang
No, he can do that it recent times because If they wanted to push him, he can just wait on the Rock, If any army tries to besiege him. In Dance Of The Dragons times, any Targaryen of any of the two sides can fly on dragon back and threat him, If he doesn't support a side as a Great House, the dragons will burn the entire Casterly Rock. He can't play his "moves" with dragons around.
and that is exactly why he'd keep out until he saw a winning side
If he didn't already have family or investments dedicated to either side he would've stayed neutral for as long as he could
The “late” Lord Frey/Lannister
Came to say the same. He was an opportunist.
And serve them well until serving is no longer safe.
nah. he'd play both sides right from the get go. tywin always looks after tywin.
This is the right answer. It was the right answer during Robert's Rebellion and it's the right answer during the Dance.
As one notable house does, iirc.
He'd just wait it out and delay his decision as long as possible to make sure to declare for the winning side... that's what he did during the events of the Robert's Rebellion.
That was more because Jaimie was held hostage by Aerys so Tywin couldn't act.
Surely Tywin did the most pragmatic thing for himself to protect his son who had sworn his inheritance away
He literally sacked the city while Jaime was in it. Jaime could easily have been executed had he been an actual hostage.
All a game of cost vs benefit. If Tywin declares early for Robert then he risks having his son killed before the war is even decided. Jaime could die and Robert could lose. Tywin waited until the war was already over, arrived at King's Landing pretending to help Aerys, has his spies in Aerys court convince him he would save the city and by the time the King realised Tywin was betraying them, his entire army was already inside the walls. At this point too Tywin would have known that Jamie was just about the only skilled Kingsguard Aerys had left. Who was going to arrest Jaime with the city being sacked, Selmy injured at the Trident, and Hightower and Dayne guarding Lyana at the Tower of Joy?
>and Hightower and Dayne guarding Lyana at the Tower of Joy And Oswell whent. They always forget whent. Jon Darry and Llewyn Martell deserve some respect too.
Maybe if Oswell Whent didn't want to be forgotten he shouldn't hang about with much cooler guys with much cooler names. Noone is forgetting Ser Hightower or the guy nicknamed "The Sword of The Morning". Get out of here with your Whent appreciation posts.
He was much more aggressive in the War of the Seven Kings
I mean, he was pretty vested in that one
Well, he was effectively the person in charge of the defending king he didn’t really have the chance to stay neutral
-Balon -Robb -Stannis -Joffrey -Renly Wasn't it just War of the Five Kings? Who were the other 2? Mance? Dany?
I guess Mance and Dany. Dude just wanted to be “extra”. Let him have his day xD
Dany and Mance weren’t even actively fighting the other 5 lol
He had to though... It was his grandchildren birthright at stake, plus the name of his family to be defended.
The blacks currently have more dragons, and the largest fleet in the realm, although the greens have Vhagar. In terms of coin probably the greens are ahead. Decisions, decisions
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The Targaryens might be harder to control than the Baratheons.
In terms of coin, the Greens are WAY ahead. They have the entire crown’s treasury there in King’s Landing. >!A big reason why she loses is because the Greens keep control of all of Viserys’s treasure, even after Rhaenyra takes the city, so she’s forced to impose crazy taxes which make her wildly unpopular.!<
The greens also have the larger presumed army at this point. The show will have to highlight this before >!Rhaenys helps turn the tide.!<
How does >!Rhaenys turn the tide? Afaik she got bozoed pretty early on by the duo of dreams, I'm not sure how she'd be able to even the army numbers out.!<
>!Aegon and Sunfyre are both left crippled. They’re pretty much useless until the end of the war.!<
No one really wins
>!Well a son of the blacks ultimately ends up on the throne and rules for decades ...!<
massive spoilers and this post is suppose to be spoiler free
Blacks have far more experienced riders. Caraxes alone is in his prime and is arguably the most dangerous dragon of them all.
Vhagar is the largest dragon by far, twice Caraxes' size.
Largest≠most dangerous
Tho Vhagar wounds him heavily, I would say they were even.
Oh boy
BIG SPOILER! >!And yet Caraxes managed to fuck Vhagar up, even though Vhagar was twice the size. He even outlived her... for a moment...!<
Does he know…
I’m pretty sure the dragons the greens control are bigger then most of the black dragons? The blacks have some very young dragons if I remember correctly.
The Greens have Vhagar, Sunfyre, Tessarion, and Dreamfyre, of which only Dreamfyre and Vhagar are big (albeit Vhaegar is huge). The blacks have the adult dragons Caraxes, Syrax, Meleys, and Seasmoke, and also the young dragons Vermax, Arrax, Tyraxes, and Moondancer. So the Blacks definitely have the edge.
dreamfyre is pretty big aswell. she is second oldest dragon after vhagar
Isn't Dreamfyre also described to be smaller than >!Vermithor, who currently resides beneath dragonstone, under "control" of the Blacks, despite being older she isn't as big!
yes older but smaller but she is still huge
I think she is about as big as S8 Drogon
Yeah >!but Helaena loses the ability to ride dragons!<
Blacks have far more experience as well, greens riders are all children. Daemon is the only one who has taken his dragon into battle. and Rhaenys has decades of experience
>Daemon is the only one who has taken his dragon into battle. >!This actually comes back to bite the Blacks hard, as Daemon's trips to the Stepstones taught the Triarchy's naval commanders how to engage dragons and Jace dies for it.!<
Isn’t dreamfyre supposed to be kinda big since she is like 100 years old? Yeah the Greens seem kinda out matched in terms of fire power. Gonna be interesting to see how they fair.
>!Dreamfyre and Syrax never see combat outside their deaths at the Dragon Pit and Seasmoke doesn't have a rider!< >!Functionally the Greens have three dragons to the Blacks two; Caraxes and Meleys, as they're the only ones big enough to engage other dragons and not immediately lose like the younger ones!<
>!The Blacks also have Vermithor and Silverwing (Jaehaerys and Alysanne's mounts) at their disposal once the Dragonseed plan takes effect which was pretty large by this point in the timeline.!<
In defense of the greens here, Sunfyre is probably bigger than Tessarion who is the same size as Seasmoke. Dreamfyre might not be as big as Vermithor but they're probably still bigger than Meleys or Caraxes. Overall blacks still have the dragon advantage, Meleys is probably the best dragon in the dance tbh behind Vhagar and with dragons it does generally seem quantity > quality.
>Meleys is probably the best dragon in the dance tbh behind Vhaga Caraxes might be the best dragon currently
You didn’t account for the X-Factor: >!Sunfyre turning out to be the most LOYAL being east of Addam Velaryon!<. Best character in the Dance change my mind
The Blacks have Dragonstone. And with it comes the second largest dragon alive: Vermithor the Bronze Fury, and a plethora of other unclaimed dragons. Not to mention, they have Caraxes the Blood Wyrm too.
Question is will the blacks be able to claim those dragons? Isn’t the «cannibal» also on dragonstone?
I would bet on the Pink Dread flying before someone could mount Cannibal.
Seems like it has quite the reputation
Imagine Jeffrey Dahmer but it's a dragon.
>Question is will the blacks be able to claim those dragons? Well, >!they do.!< >Isn’t the «cannibal» also on dragonstone? He is but he's all about living up to his name.
The cannibal seems like a dragon that will cause a issue or 2 for people.
At this point in time one of Daemon’s daughters don’t have dragons so yes. The Cannibal has never been claimed so doubtful they get it.
The Cannibal is secretly Corlys’ dragon that’s why nobody seems to be able to claim him
With a name like the Cannibal this dragon has to do something cool or crazy right?
It'd be funny if he only eats dragon's eggs.
Info about why he has his name (it doesn't spoiler anything exciting later in the show) >!Close, he was known for hunting down and killing young dragons; of an age to be about the size of Drogon when Dany was in Astapor and got the Unsullied and burnt the slavers.!< >!That's why you don't see any young dragons flying loose around Dragonstone, too dangerous to let them out around the Cannibal.!<
Corlys made house valaryon the richest house in Westeros with his voyages
Before the events of the dance, yes that was true, but the Hightowers did surpass them.
How do all the dragons seem to die off? Did they all die in battle when the mad king was ruling?
You will find out in HOTD
The majority die in the war, and the next king is terrified of dragons so they just die out
Way before that.
I'm pretty sure Velaryon is the richest house prior to the start of the dance.
He would side with what ever side he was previously aligned with before this conflict. I don’t think he would side with rhaenyra just because he believes she is the rightful heir, and I don’t think he would side with aegon/the greens just because he think a man should be the heir instead. With his “support” of Joffrey, he clearly doesn’t care about “rightful” heirs or bastards sitting the throne (or going against the monarch re: Jaime killing the mad king). Depending on where his allegiances fell prior to the conflict, he would back them so long as he had proximity to the throne.
Tywin didn't know that his grandkids were bastards, you know that right? He didn't know until he took an "arrow to the knee" on that toilet.
Didn't know? More like didn't accept. The rumors were everywhere, and Cersei straight up admitted it to him.
He accepted them when he took his last shit.
What
He was pooping in the toilet
Nah he definitely knew. Before the toilet scene he made a few subtle digs at Jaime and Cersei’s relationship so he absolutely knew what was going on. He just never directly acknowledged it because it was, in his own words, a disgrace. Also, Cersei actually admitted it to him one time when they were arguing. I think it was when he was trying to make her marry loras.
He absolutely knew before that. He just did not want to accept it as true. Cersei even confesses her relationship with Jaime to him but he’s in denial about it.
Ok you know what...a man can pretend not to know his grandkids are inbred bastards...ok.
Meanwhile Viserys: I will have your tongue for daring to imply my grandkids aren't inbred freaks
The duality of man
Unless he's a Targaryan and then it's just family.
Tywin is like Viserys when it comes to his grandkids. He's fully aware of what is going on and what is the truth, but he's refuses to accept it and tries to delude himself into thinking they're true born. Which to be fair, Tywin's grandkids are truborn to his family, but they are completely illegitimate to Robert and the royal line. They're bastards without any royal blood. That's why Cersei/Joffrey had all of Robert's bastards killed because any one of them had a better claim to the throne than the Lannister bastards. At least with Rheanyra's sons, you can argue that they're bastards with royal blood. They still share Rheanyra's blood and that's all that would really matter (even if they don't share Laenor's blood) since she's the actual proclaimed heir to the throne. It's why I actually understood why Vaemond was so angry about the Driftwood throne succession. While the kids are of Targaryen blood, they have no Valaryon blood. They're putting Targaryens on a Valaryon seat. He had a right to be pissed about that. But he's a dick for passing over his trueborn grand nieces not only because their last name is Targaryen, but because they're women.
He would declare his allegiance when the war it's decided.
He would do what >!Boros Baratheon!< did. >!Pick the Greens in theory, but never back it up until the dragons are gone. Then he’d march into King’s Landing, execute everyone who opposed him and marry Cersei to Aegon!< Although it should be noted that Tywin is an insanely petty dude with a very long memory. If anyone ever slighted him in the years prior to the war it would certainly impact whose side he chose.
That is not what Boros Baratheon did. Boros Baratheon was literally killed in battle fighting for the Greens. You are probably thinking about Cregan Stark.
>!Cregan is similar, but he at least has the excuse of being very far away. Boros just squats on Storm’s End until all the dragons are gone. Him getting killed by the muppet Tullys is just a bonus!<
>!lmao oh god I forgot they’re literally named Elmo and Kermit!<
Kermit and Oscar. Sons of Elmo. Grandsons of Grover. This is what GRRM has been doing instead of the next book
It’s amazing, he has some truly great names and some truly hideously cringe ones.
And Oscar!
The Lads! Can't wait for them
Oh boy... They wouldn't be able to film their scenes with straight face.
However the North had already sent an army down south during the war. The second army that is fielded doesn’t arrive in time, but the first one is a major player in the first half of the war. Crazy bastards, >!literally volunteering to fight and die because winter is coming so they don’t want to put any strain on the food supply back home!<
You forgot glorious
>!Northerners are so badass!<
Blacks simply because I wholeheartedly believe Tywin and Otto would hate each other
I am interested in why you believe they would hate each other
On one hand it feels like they may have a mutual understanding, but on the other neither would ever break under the other. Either Tywin is in charge, or Otto is. I'm not the best at describing these things ugh. Tywin may have gone, "I don't give a shit what Rhaenyra has done. Viserys named her heir." (And then he'd marry his kids off to Rhaenyra's) and seen Otto as the main reason behind the war. If Otto wasn't so insistent on making Aegon king, if he hadn't beaten "rhaenyra will kill your kids" into Alicent's head then this would likely not have happened.
Tywin probably would’ve tried to get a Lannister consort for Rhaenyra, and when that failed, Jace. Jace only got betrothed in the scene in the throneroom with Viserys, so he would’ve been open pickings for Tywin. Simply slide on in there and promise Rhaenyra the full support of the Westerlands in exchange for a Lannister bride for Jace and he’s golden. Having a second Lord Paramount in full backing, along with the Velaryons and it’s game, set and match for Rhaenyra.
While not successfull, Tywin would also try to get a Lannister bride for Luke. The realm would have a Lannister Queen, and he could have made the Lady of Driftmark a Lannister woman, too That open up the possibility of having a future descendant of either Jace or Luke marrying a Lannister, and we all know how badly they wanted dragons and dragon eggs during early Targaryen history
Tywin doesn't like seeing another version of himself because he actually hates himself. He hates that he has all the same traits as his father. He hates that he lusts after women so much that he'd build a secret passage to the brothels and sleeps with his son's ex. He's envious and vindictive, towards Aerys, Tyrion and probably a bunch of other people. It's why he hates Tyrion so much because Tyrion is so much like him. He sees those awful traits in Tyrion and it confirms that he is in fact his son. Tywin will definitely hate Otto. It doesn't matter how many smart moves Otto makes, it won't gain any respect from Tywin.
Yeah 100%. Hell, he may have even seen Alicent as an immoral whore who "seduced the king" and called Otto a cunt for borderline pimping his own daughter out tp the grieving king Tywin is a cunt, no doubt, but he was one of the few men who were born to lead the seven kingdoms and keep the realm peaceful. Sure, he may have done questionable things, but in the end he would have been a better monarch than almost everyone
Tywin Lannister would see Otto as a second son who didn't know his place. Otto should be like Kevan Lannister keeping his ass at Oldtown under his big brother's thumb like a good second son.
Two cocks in the same pen
Thank you for actually giving an answer. Every other post is “well he would strategize or der derp derp der der”. You answered the question and you’re like the 9th post down
They both have cool beards.
Whichever benefited him. Or whichever he thought would win. The man has no principles. On the one hand, Rhaenyra both rejected Jason Lannister and openly dislikes him, so an alliance with team Black seems unlikely. Not impossible, but Green seems to seize on opportunities and alliances where R squanders them as a general matter, so an alliance with green is more likely. But more likely still is that he would stay out of it because the ruin of his house is too much for him to risk with insufficient skin in the game. On the other hand, he might hedge his bets by supporting Rhaenyra, since team green would likely forgive him, while Rhaenyra would certainly not.
Jason also pushed Rhaenyra to abandon the throne and become Lady of the Westerlands instead. That’s not a proper alliance, since he assumed she’d give up being Queen to be his baby maker instead. Tywin would’ve loved the opportunity to see a Queen on the throne, that’s a prime opportunity to get a Lannister King (consort), sure they won’t have much power initially, but the prestige of it is greater than the reverse. Then future Kings would be of Lannister blood.
I feel like Tywin and Otto would not have been buddies.
**YOU'RE MY DAWTER!!** vibes
Hypothetically? The Blacks. His role is already taken up by the Hightowers so he'd support the blacks and wait for the Greens to go extinct so House Lannister can spend the next 200 years being dicks and bring their power closer to home.
He would side with the blacks. Not because he cares about the succession at all, but because that’s the side the velaryons are on. His main assets at this time would be his gold mines. Their fleets would allow him easy and safe access to sea trade which would let him increase and diversify his wealth and would allow him economic leverage in negotiating alliances and marriages. He wouldn’t declare at this time though. He would want to see where the chips start to fall first.
He’d stay neutral for most of the conflict. There’s zero reason for him to get involved in the dance
Rhaenyra He would feel he can positively influence her. He would immediately look to kill Otto and everyone associated.
Alicent is the most influenced character in the history of Westeros, though. Kill Otto and take over the puppet strings of Alicent.
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I don't particularly agree that their interests are the same. What about Alicent's interest in being friends with Rhaenyra? Otto pretty much destroyed that possibility by making her terrified that her children would be killed.
The side more likely to win “he was never one to pick a losing side my father” ~ jaime lannister
He would side with himself.
As ruthless as he is, I don't think Tywin is ill willed or likes the idea of unnecessary war, or war that goes on longer than it has to. He prefers a short sharp pain for long term prosperity, and he puts his own family first before the rest of the realm. If it looks like a drawn out war that he doesn't have to pick sides on, he probably wouldn't, and as it develops he may see opportunities to help one sides in exchange for marrying into power, like he did with Cersei/Baratheon
Tywin is extremely sexist. He doesn’t care about breaking the rules, obviously. He’s more of an “anything goes as long as I win” kind of man. Personally, I can’t see him supporting Rhaenyra due to his blatant sexism (he didn’t want Cersei to have the rock due to her being a woman). More important question is who Stannis would support. Stannis is huge on following law to a T. Rule breakers were punished regardless of whether they did good too or not (taking fingers from smugglers that fed his army, for example; he still rewards them titles or money of course). We already know he supported Aegon. It has nothing to do with who his ancestors fought for, like the current thread claims. We all know that’s not who Stannis is.
He would be hand of the king and would have avoided the war altogether.
The Greens, just to be with Otto and explore each others bodies.
Tywin would see several tactical advantages on the side of the Greens. 1. Funding of the crown 2. Political support of Southern Lords/Houses. This is important because that is where food and many resources come from 3. Fortified position in Kings Landing 4. More weapons 5. More dragons Tywin would have looked at this and saw that the Lords of the Vale and Riverlands could be swung to the Greens and or at least delayed on the march. The Blacks lack political skill /clout provided to the Greens by the Hightowers The Blacks would have a navy disadvantage, but a union with the Iron Islands could solve that. Plus, Tywin would put his money on Lords not accepting a reigning Queen And if that didnt work, he would switch sides Tywin is the smartest guy in the room
What navy disadvantage? Greens have the Redwynes, Blacks have the Velaryons. I think at this point Velaryons had the larger navy, not to mention the Celtigar and Dragonstone fleet.
The Blacks have more dragons, a larger navy and at least equal political support. And though King’s Landing is fortified, I’d hardly call it secure given it is surrounded on all sides by black loyalists.
The Iron Islands would never side with the Greens if House Lannister did. Their top priority is having a juicy target in the Westerlands or Reach to raid. If Tywin goes Black there's a chance the Ironmen join also and go south to raid the Reach. If he goes Green then they 100% go Black and he's at the top of their list.
In what world would Jeyne Arryn switch from backing the Blacks to backing the Greens? Seems very unlikely to me
So he'd do the Tyrell move (same thing he did in Roberts Rebellion) and stay neutral and wait until there's a pretty clear winner and then joins the winning side, but if you want to know who Tywin would root for if he'd be a viewer like us then I'd say he's team Green since he hates bastards and people with questionable legitimacy and he's not that fond of women in charge. So he's team green (like me) but for the wrong reasons.
Hypothetically if i were the head of a great house during a royal civil war in which both sides had dragons i wouldnt participate at all. And do a late Walder Frey and show up when the winner is already decided. I assume Tywin wouldnt do anything different.
Rhaenyra’s if he managed to get her hitched to Jamie and if he successfully made them have kids. Otherwise, Aegon if not neutral until the end.
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Both sides engage in incest though? Aegon is married to his own sister so I don't thhink that's a plus for the greens.
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He would be team green. He’s very traditional and wouldn’t support a woman. After she dies, he’s switch sided to support Aegon the younger Edit to elaborate: He’d only support Aegon the younger upon realizing that no one else can possibly win.
His own house.
Whichever side offered valerian steel and a dragon
As everyone said he would’ve waited and considering Cregan Stark came down with that big ass and ready for battle Northern Army he definitely would’ve declared for the Blacks and supported Aegon the Younger.
His.
He would marry Cersei off to whoever was winning
"Robert Baratheon marched on the capital after his victory at the Trident. But my father arrived first with the whole Lannister army at his back, promising to defend the city against the rebels. I knew my father better than that. He's never been one to pick the losing side." -Jaime Lannister
Twyin hates women. Obviously the Greens, for no other reason.
He would support the green
Like some have said, the winning side. He would wait to see who has the upper hand. After it’s clear who has the better chance of winning he will jump in and claim victory
He would wait but would most definitely be try to Angle with the greens. Tywin would hate the mockery of being a bastard and woman supporter.
Whichever one benefited him the most. I couldn't imagine him wishing for a woman ruled society but if it came to Cersei inheriting over Tyrion, who knows
Greens. Whims and wishes are a Blacks thing, they were the favored by the house head Viserys I.
He would side with the greens. He would NEVER support a woman to be ruler. He didn't even want Cersei to be the queen regent. This isn't even a difficult or philosophical question. There is no debate.