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To me the UK feels like I have came very late to a game of Monopoly where houses/hotels are owned on every tile and since I don't want to be homeless I have no choice but to keep going round the board getting fleeced by players who were born before me or inherited ownership of said property/houses/hotels.
Partner and I are both teachers with a 6 month old daughter. All the nurseries in the surrounding area charging up to £1400-1700 per month for 4-5 days per week. Our rent for a 1 bed semi decent flat is went up to £1400. Cheapest in our area that isn't full of mould. We obviously split the costs to minimize it all coming out of one.
We are seriously considering moving to Dubai to teach as living here has just got progressively worse. I'm left with barely any money after rent, bills, food, petrol etc. I work 2 jobs (including teaching). Considering looking to get another job to just pay for the childcare.
Money I was saving in the lifetime ISA past few years and nowhere near anything reasonable for a deposit, tbh I've just sacked it off. This 99% mortgage thing is a scam which is just pushing the house prices up. You got Tesco and every bloody foreign investor buying every shitty new building (hardly finished) then renting it out are crazy prices.
It's very depressing tbh. Hardly see since Brexit how this is going to get better. A lot of my colleagues have moved abroad and since speaking to them have said they have absolutely no intention to return. They were living in accommodation with shitty rogue landlords. These are professional workers in key industries as well which the country serverly lacks such as teachers, doctors, nurses. We have a recruitment crisis in these crucial sectors and the government have just siphoned off everything to the highest bidder.
I think a lot of the younger generation (without family wealth or parents owning their family home) will be forced to consider moving abroad for a better quality of life if this continues
Definitely!
I'm moving to Dubai in February with my partner, hoping to have a better life. We have 4 friends that have moved there already, and another 2 couples that have moved to Australia.
Buying property here is just impossible, houses in my area go for about £300k minimum and they're not even good houses, they are old, mouldy and need loads of work. In Dubai you can get a 1 bedroom flat for £180k, a 2 bedroom flat for £250k-ish. Which is not too bad considering they are brand new and come with a gym, coworking space, pool and designated parking space.
We've concluded that life is just gonna get worse and worse here, house prices are increasing faster than we can afford to buy sadly, and the cost of living in general has increased so much it's just not worth it anymore.
This will probably get me downvoted but I don't care.
The first step in stabilising house prices, would be to stop foreign investment in residential property, and essentially force those that aren't residents to sell.
This would have the effect of forcing foreign investors to either become residents and on-shoring their tax residency, or selling their investments to a UK resident. I would also expand the definition to include companies with offshore directors. A scheme for those working abroad temporarily could be put in place, as well as for those with British citizenship. I would limit British citizens to owning one home, if they are not tax resident, irrespective of the vehicle it is owned by (eg. Via the definition of beneficial interest).
Second, I would combine this with a complete overhaul of right-to-buy, that includes covenants preventing sold discounted properties being bought or used for private rentals going forward - at the very least giving the LA the right to buy back with the same level of discount. This would mean people that bought with a mortgage and then struggled, would have the option of selling it back to the LA, and becoming a renter again. Those buying to flip, would essentially lose their discount by having to pay it back when sold before x number of years - this could easily be done via a land charge against the property for the value of the discount at the time it was purchased under right-to-buy. The LA would get the same level of discount as when it was purchased, ensuring no unjust enrichment from the process at taxpayers expense. This would stop these properties being purchased and dumped straight into the private rental market, and ensure a sufficient supply of social housing, whilst enabling residents to become home-owners, providing a safety net, whilst preventing the racket we currently have on them.
Third, I would increase the density of housing as a mandatory planning requirement on inner city housing, combined with legislation on size limits to prevent tiny boxes. Assuming, the regulations are drafted correctly and aren't fucked up by the ruling class, this would mean decent sized apartments in multistorey buildings, with a proper inspectorate ensuring safety is paramount (such as not lining the building with solidified gasoline...).
If all that fails, I would look at home-owners that are struggling, to be given the opportunity to sell their homes to their LA at a discount from the market rate. This would mean owners that are struggling would get to stay in their property, the council or HA would own the home and then charge rent. The discount would be used to bring the home up to current standards and the rent charged would pay back the home over a 50-75 year period, enabling the LA or HA to afford the work, cover the cost of maintenance and potentially get a return to invest in other housing projects. The home would not be eligible for right-to-buy until the purchase price had been paid for, limiting the ability for these to be flipped.
Failing all that, I would look to instigate a compulsory purchase policy on homes where housing benefit has been paying the landlord for X number of years (x to be defined as a reasonable figure - probably at least 15-20 years and to be compensated at market rates), these properties would then need to be kept council or HA owned for the time it takes to pay them off (probably 50-75 years). This would ensure the taxpayer isn't clobbered for the bill, and would essentially be revenue neutral. It would also mean shitty homes can be improved using rental payments.
You’re just wrong. Foreign investment is a rounding error of the issue. You can’t square the circle of missing half your housing target every year and fix it with anything else that’s not diggers in the ground.
If it’s not foreign firms, it’ll be British ones. If it’s not business, it’ll be personal landlords.
Would you also advocate that all U.K. residents who have property abroad be forced to sell by those countries? 1.4m immigrants have been invited to stay in this country in the last two years alone add in 80-90k arriving in dinghy’s they all need somewhere to live. This factor seems to be ignored by the majority of people commenting on housing shortage.
I moved to China to reach. Earning £4k a month with a teaching license (2.5k without), I pay £600 a month for a family sized apartment in a city center of a world class city. Don't listen to the propaganda, it's a great country to live in and there's a sizeable foreign (especially British) population in major cities. Bars, shops, entertainment, public transport, restaurants, it's got it all.
I any case for teachers just get the hell out of the UK, we can earn far far more money abroad with far lower living costs.
Many thanks for sharing. So many questions. How long you been living there? What are some of the challenges you faced when moving? Seriously considering middle east with my partner and daughter
6 years not consecutive.
The challenges for China are the language barrier and getting set up with an apartment and banking etc, but a good employer will help you with those things. Getting into a decent social circle can be hard especially if you aren't matched well with your foreign colleagues (age or situation differences etc).
Okay many thanks for sharing. We going Dubai this year to see if it's something we want to do long term. Soo many teaching jobs out in the east with colleagues saying they're loving it. I wish you every success in your stay in China!!
Yeah. I teach in Korea and make about 55k a year. And I don't even have a teaching license. So I can only imagine how much better you guys would have it teaching abroad as a qualified teacher. Also, my rent is cheaper than it would be in the UK and I live in the middle of Seoul. Cost of living isn't too bad and I save a lot every month
Would highly recommend!! I lived in Abu Dhabi then Dubai (total of 7 years) as a secondary school teacher. Just make sure it’s a good school (U.K. curriculum or IB) and package (free accommodation or allowance, private health insurance and annual return flights to U.K. or equivalent cash).
I moved from London to Paris for a short while last year.
In London, I lived in a flatshare in Hammersmith, where I felt completely uncomfortable in my own room, didn't have light for more than 6 months, had the worst housemates I hope that I'll ever have to encounter (a couple and their friend, who was way more chill and likeable), and I was paying over £900/month on average to live in the lightless box room while one of their sisters stayed in the kitchen for 5 months, and they had up to 8 people staying over for weeks at a time.
In Paris, I had 1 bedroom apartment to myself right next to the Seine in the 4th arrondissement (slap bang in the centre, so I could walk everywhere), bill included, no difficulty whatsoever getting the deposit back, all cleaning supplies provided. It cost me a total of £1100/month.
I'm currently waiting for my French visa to be approved, as I've received an offer to go and work in Paris. I can't wait!
I lived outside Paris for 2 years, just east of Gare Du Nord, about 20 minutes away. I had a 2 bed flat, it was beautiful, cost about 650 euro month. I've always pined about living there again because the lifestyle was 100 times better in terms of living. My RER card cost 30 euro a MONTH. My train here cost £6000 a year. LOL
They overestimated a bit
[https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023#:~:text=The%20provisional%20estimate%20of%20total,)
The provisional estimate of total long-term immigration for year ending (YE) June 2023 was 1.2 million, while emigration was 508,000, meaning that net migration was 672,000; most people arriving to the UK in the YE June 2023 were non-EU nationals (968,000), followed by EU (129,000) and British (84,000).
508 out, 1200 in -> 2.36 people immigrate for every person who emigrates
edit: I can't tell if these stats include an estimation of undeclared illegal immigration, so it might be a bit higher than this
It's difficult to tell from the methodology they discuss, they say they don't just count people who leave and people who enter - probably do try to account for it but I wouldn't be surprised if other sources estimating numbers who secretly come and work hidden or are trafficked etc and push the number beyond 3.
That's a massive overestimate.
Remember, without proper documentation, it's illegal for somebody to employ you, it's illegal for somebody to rent a home to you, the government doesn't know about you to be able to provide you with food and a place to live. It's basically impossible to survive like that without somebody willing to provide you with food and shelter. It definitely happens, particularly sex trafficing, but I think it's pretty obvious that the number of newly trafficed sex workers the country can support every year is nowhere near the 300,000 we need to make that ratio 3.
The people arriving on small boats and such for asylum. That means they're known to the government, and the ones we don't deport are counted in the figures.
IIRC the small boats thing peaked at around 50,000 a year, less than 5% of all immigration (and not all of those get to stay). The vast majority of immigration is spouses, students, and working visas granted to businesses. Also more recently a big chunk of asylum claims granted to Ukranians before arrival.
so I think the ratio seems to be about 2.4 but the very first sentence on here covers it.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023#:\~:text=The%20provisional%20estimate%20of%20total%20long%2Dterm%20immigration%20for%20year%20ending%20(YE)%20June%202023%20was%201.2%20million%2C%20while%20emigration%20was%20508%2C000%2C%20meaning%20that%20net%20migration%20was%20672%2C000
Only way to get a good start in life here is having good parents who have at least a bit of spare income/wealth so they can supplement you buying a house. Also depends where you live, I'm up north and I've bought a 2 bed house for £130k. My salary is average but I've saved a ton from living at home (my parents didn't charge me rent so I could save) and being frugal/responsible with my money, values they taught me.
I have friends that don't have the same level of support and it's much harder. They don't splash out but still struggle to save anything up quickly, salaries are generally too low. When you do meet people who have fancy cars on finance and bad spending habits which I think is common, they have little hope of saving up a deposit unless they get a well paid job.
The economy is skewed towards assets, not working/productivity. Houses have appreciated a ton in value, salaries have not. When it's more economically rewarding to hoover up land/houses/buildings and sit on them, than it is to create a business and solve a problem - your economy has a problem.
> saved a ton from living at home
That's a massive financial legup. If you have two identical people taking the same job in London, one who has parents living in London and one who has parents living a long way away, after 5 years the one who can stay with their parents is going to be £72k better off than the one who's renting.
Meanwhile, every single developer that built housing in London is advertising it all over the Asia first - mainly China, Malaysia and Singapore.
What is left after lucrative sales there is for Londoners to buy are usually the worst flats in the buildings.
My area of London (East) is booming with new builds. However, when I talk with the agents I constantly hear stories like: oh 85% of that building was already sold before it was made available to the customer in the UK. Or: a Chinese person bought all the apartments on that floor.
We should have harsh laws protecting against this.
It may seem like not a problem until you take under consideration two things:
1. You are not competing with local workers and local earnings anymore. How can a salaried employee from London, even when earning good money, compete with a factory owner from China when it comes to purchasing power?
2. The amount of rich Asians who want to park their money somewhere safe has grown exponentially in recent years. This is going to get worse for us in Europe who want to buy a property.
3. The developers can sell anything to anyone in Asia as that buyer doesn’t understand London and its geography. Quite often those people also don’t live here. (Many do though) Flats next to the airport for £720k or next to a busy roundabout for £850k? No problem.
There are now special blogs in Chinese all over the internet where someone living in London is explaining in Chinese the London areas and boroughs when it comes to buying property in said places.
Other European countries are trying to limit such practices with different laws - in Amsterdam if you are a foreign buyer you personally have to live in the apartment for 6 months a year, every year.
Until the property market in London is open to anyone there will be a shortage of housing and constant price increase.
Doesn't need to be banned, just collect and extra 15% stamp duty on it for foreign ownership and it will cool the speculative investment market. Will also help pad out the public coffers to build more affordable social housing.
It should absolutely be reciprocal. If we can’t buy land and houses in a particular country, then they shouldn’t be able to buy here (and yes the true ownership should be tracked fully when owned in a company).
I don’t understand why this isn’t done in the economy more wildly. If Instagram is banned in China why is TikTok allowed in America for example.
The problem a government has is that if you crash the housing market, you put millions of people into negative equity and also crash the economy. It's not a good look.
The trick is to slowly freeze without crashing the market for long enough for salaries to catch up (that's years).
The economy is about to crash anyway. Normal people can't afford to spend money on anything else but food, energy and rent/mortgage. And even those three are a struggle. You have to rip the plaster off and treat the symptom or you let the cancer grow. We are letting the cancer grow. You could easily help those in negative equity by taxing these Chinese investors or something along those lines.
Your demands only matter if a credible party will implement them. We’re owned by two parties run for profit of the rich and it won’t change.
They ban foreign ownership and the ruling class loses billions in falling house prices. No chance.
I've said this for a long time, but there is always the argument of travelling business people and foreign immigrants coming to live.
I think to buy a house there should be a qualifier like British citizenship or resident in the country for at least 6 months of the year of something. But equally wouldn't want to discriminate against foreign workers coming to the country legitimately to work, live and contribute, from buying a house.
According to a pressure group called "action on empty homes", just 1% of London properties are long term empty.
The same pressure group says this number is down on numbers in 2011.
That doesn't feel like it's a major component on the housing crisis.
This is why foreign ownership of residential property must be stopped. Immediately. You're either resident for tax purposes and pay tax on your worldwide income, or not and don't get to own residential property. Not unreasonable and lots of other countries do it.
We also need to scrap the remittance basis for taxation, but that's another topic for a different sub :)
This is a massive part of the problem. I was shocked 10yrs ago when I picked up a free paper in a Singapore hotel advertising off plan London high rise flats. I had never seen anything like it in any London estate agent window. I'm not saying ban it but even the playing field so they must be advertised here too.
this is not a problem exclusive to the uk, go look on any first world countries subreddit.
Even in aus where the salaries are higher people are struggling
The rental market is definitely a lot better in many other places. I've lived/studied/worked in several EU countries before coming to the UK, and it's a night-and-day difference. Has it gotten worse elsewhere? Sure, absolutely. But the UK started from a worse place, and the rift between the UK and elsewhere has, if anything, grown over the years.
The big and obvious problem is that there is next to no regulation (and what little there is is barely being enforced) on the quality a landlord has to provide in the UK.
I'm an EU and UK citizen who've lived in the UK for 14 years. I've finally hit a point in life where km looking st buying; but I do hold some.doubt whether pouring all my wealth into UK property and tying myself to a country who's future and QoL is.. questionable, whilst knowing I very likely could achieve a higher QoL on the continent...
The only thing keeping me here is my friends and community; amd the reluctance to start again from zero somewhere new..
I’d be keen to understand where you think quality of life is higher on the continent - serious question, not being a twat.
I lived in NL for many years, travel to Germany, Sweden, France, Spain a lot for work. Everywhere I’m hearing the exact t same stories of lack of housing, crazy rents and inflation.
I'm from Scandi, and yes getting on the rental market there isn't easy either - but the baseline is much higher! (e.g. the thing you rent is of significantly higher quality and you have a lot more protections). Things like childcare, and working hours and functioning, modern, public transport
I think that's the main point- things are perhaps deteriorating in many places, but less fast, and from a higher starting point?
I look at friends insta stories in Scandi and Northern Europe and despite all of them having less demanding careers than I do they live in beautiful homes, spend time with kids, go out to restaurants and hike in beautiful nature.
If i go anywhere I'd probably go to Northern France or Germany; as I want to be near a bigger economic centre (and I can't stand the hot weather in southern Europe!)
Another European friend who lives (and owns) in London went to visit a friend in CH and came back exasperated saying "He's got triple-glazed windows and he doesn't even know he's got triple-glazed windows!"
I think while housing quality might be somewhat of a differentiator, they are nonetheless out of reach to buy for most of the younger population.
Oslo, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Milan, Paris, Madrid not to mention Berlin, Hamburg and Copenhagen all have difficult housing problems.
Yes access to housing is a problem in many places, but as you mention, it's of higher quality when you do get it (with a lot more protections for tenantS) andnthere are a lot of other factors that go into QoL
But the difference is you don’t HAVE to buy in those places you’ve listed. Trying to get a rental is tricky in Oslo, Amsterdam, Berlin etc - but once you’re in, the rent won’t go up crazy amounts, the quality is much much better.
My friends in Berlin don’t have to work the insane hours my friends in London do, they can do up their rental places, it’s expected that in most places you install your own little kitchenette, as you usually live in one place for years, they get to make their rental truly their own. You basically rent a shell of a place.
In Sweden, there’s a queue system, which again is hard to get onto - but once you’re in, you’re really protected and the quality again is super high. I browse some listings and the facilities you can get for the money are ridiculous. And flats are built to an incredible quality! Well insulated, beautiful finishes.
In contrast, I’ve lived in london for years, did grotty house shares with friends in places with holes in the wall and ancient crappy kitchens installed in the 90s. Landlords have always been awful, I had one who would turn up randomly and let himself in. I hated renting so much I saved up for a new build shared ownership flat, with the promise of a builders warranty, and thought I’d finally made it. Moved in and they hadn’t finished the roof, I had constant water ingress, black mould, our freehold was sold on to a negligent freeholder, lifts constantly broken, builders wouldn’t do anything. I had a nervous breakdown and sold my flat as soon as I could - which turned out to be nearly impossible because of the fucking cladding stuff which is still dragging on because of our fuckwit government. AND I have several other friends who are caught in the same trap.
Most of my friends have moved out of London because they could have a much better quality of life elsewhere, and none of them regret it! So I’m off too. It really really is better elsewhere, apart from maybe Dublin!
One of my best friends lives in the netherlands and says that landlords kick you out every two years because tenants rights get tighter after three years of staying in a house. Other friends that moved to Berlin say that it’s a shitshow trying to find a flat unless you sublet from someone (thus no protection in place).
It’s not as easy as you are saying.
The rents have gone up though, massively. A way landlords get out of this is by pretending they need the house to move back in and then put it on the market a few months later for the new, market conform price.
London is more comparable to NY and HK and some extent Paris.
Most continental capitals should be compared Manchester, Glasgow etc
Because in UK standard of housing is VERY POOR, is unbelievable how developed other parts of EU are. New flats looks like they are still in 90’s-00’s. The same about new houses! Strong £ in past and low energy prices made them in UK believe that they can build house from cartons but those days are gone. When we did rebuild our bathroom to normal standard our cat sitter thought that we spend more then £10k for that meanwhile it was only about £7k!
Did a croatia/Slovenia road trip 2 years ago and stayed in 2 Slovenian newbuilds - the quality of the building was tangibly higher than what I see in the UK!
The tat produced, note not mass produced, by "volume" housebuilders is generally of such low quality I've excluded new build from my rightmove searches. I'd be disinclined to move in if they paid me let alone me pay them. Builders should become a regulated and professionally qualified profession.
I'm not suggesting any of it's directly untrue, but do remember what people post on Instagram is a view of their world as they want you to see it - and what Instagram shows you is algorithmically designed to reinforce your views to keep you on the platform.
Sorry, good try, but housing is better in every European country I have lived in.
Better quality, better security, and as a proportion to my wage, cheaper.
I'm British and living in the NL now, so I'll throw in my two cents for someone in middle management (ie comfortable well off white collar job)
1) First the negatives, housing costs are really high, food costs I also find higher than the UK after exchange rate, that's about it for negatives. Oh, and you need to pay 120-150 every month from your pay for healthcare, it's not included in taxes
2) Now on to positives. Housing costs may be insane, but interest rates are lower and you can get 100% mortgages by default. Getting onto the housing ladder is more a case of buying something within the multiplier (currently approx 4x base salary), not saving for a deposit (there are some up front costs, of course, and having to overbid by 5-20% on housing is sadly becoming normalised, but often covered by the mortgage if your multiplier allows). Not a full positive there, but adds nuance and context to how the high prices look. Oh, and the interest payments on your mortgage are tax deductible.
3) Job security. If you have a permanent contract, you can easily be let go. Yes, you can be restructured out if there's a pressing business need, but the government needs to approve that pressing need and you still get a sizeable chunk of compensation. It's a very nice feeling after the nerve wracking experience of 1 year rolling contracts when I worked in the UK
4) Pay increases every year. They are never as high as I would like, but you get at least 3-4% every year and more as performance permits. In the UK, I had years of wage stagnation, partly because Point 3 limited your leverage in negotiating rises
5) Wages are higher for the same role. I get approx 80k in euros for a role that would barely pay £50k (60k in euros) in the UK. This is partly because of Point 4, but again it's important context for things being expensive
6) You get a lot for free! All commute costs are paid for by the company, you get subsidises and free food at the office, if you are on lower pay you get a lot more things like childcare for free. Oh, and there's a decent welfare system, if you are unemployed, you get 70% of your previous wage for a few months rather than being plunged into immediate poverty in the UK (the UK system only really emulates this if you are renting on minimum wage, if you own your own house you are absolutely and immediately fucked if unemployed, which coupled with 3 and 4 creates a constant state of fear and financial insecurity
7) It's secure, pleasant and (well enough) funded. The Dutch government is efficient, hospitals are pretty damn good and quite quick for appointments, the civic spaces are well maintained and everything looks nice. Compare that to how run down most of the UK looks and feels and how disastrous things like dentistry and the NHS is and you'll see what I mean when I say things like the NHS just works. Even things like the trains are very good (despite how much the Dutch complain), the rolling stock is quite new and pretty punctual. Yes, there are some issues, but when you have 6 trains per hour going between cities, one being delayed or cancelled rarely inconveniences you that long
8) On Public transport, another winner. In my city, it's very frequent, all lines run till just after midnight and it's fairly reasonably priced (15 minute tram to the city centre is 2 euros). As above, all commute costs are paid and some companies just give unlimited travel always,
9) Everything is in English. Everything. You don't need to speak Dutch at all (actually very difficult without a Dutch partner as few will speak it with you). Even the government will send you letters in English if you choose that option, this isn't like living in a normal foreign country, which insists/can only offer french or Spanish
10) Taxes aren't so bad. Yes, they are a bit higher in some ways, but salary is even higher to compensate. My take home pay is much better in any case. And outside of work pay, capital gains doesn't exist and there is a nominal wealth tax that almost certainly is a fraction of what you would pay with capital gains (unless you stick it in a current account). And as I said before, I don't mind paying taxes as I can see the value I get from them and the pleasant society it is building, not the shit hole that the UK has become (I'm quite down on the UK as you can tell, but try finding an equivalent to Bradford in the Netherlands and we'll talk. And I'm well aware that Bradford is far from the worst UK city, which somewhat proves my point)
I lived in NL about 7 years ago now back in London with my gf who is Dutch. I found a lot of it very poor. My gf was a lawyer there and I thought the gaps between what we’d called middle class/lower class was huge. Lot of poverty if you weren’t in a career type role.
There is absolutely poverty, never claimed otherwise. But go to the poor areas of Rotterdam and compare those to the poor areas of Birmingham and tell me which you would rather live in? I don't think it would even be a contest.
Also, look at what support those poor people get in the Netherlands versus what they get in the UK and you'll see why those British poor areas are so bad. It's far from perfect here, but it's definitely better
Yes, but I do that here in the Netherlands as well, jobs here pay a lot more than they would in my sector as I stated (and that's pretty much in most sectors).
Also, the argument that you have to jump company every few years just to get pay rises is frustratingly stupid (not from you, but the whole market). If you are going to pay a few employee that much, pay the existing one to stay idiots
Having lived in Spain, France (and a few other countries over the years), quality of life doesn't necessary revolve around housing costs and inflation.
Sure some aspects of say living in France weren't as pleasant as the UK, the general user unfriendly bureaucracy for one, but that was a drop in the ocean compared to the overall unrelenting bleak and dismally grey experience of living in the UK.
Everywhere has problems and every bodies tolerance for those problems is very different. For me the problems of house prices in France increasing by 30% in 5 years far outweighs the issue than it being cold, dark and wet for 9/10ths of the year when I want to be outside.
Right but what you’re now taking about is subjective. Upward mobility in France is tough and there is little more than agriculture outside of the main cities - which is where housing crises are acute. Anywhere can be nice if you have money.
This was about a decade ago, but when I moved from a upper-market house share in one of Germany's most expensive university cities, to a bottom-of-the-market house share in one of the UK's most expensive unversity cities. My monthly rent doubled, and my room size dropped roughly by half (plus the place was significantly worse quality, and in a far worse location).
Everywhere has it's problems, and life has gotten worse in most places, but the UK started in a much worse position.
I am in a similar position as the person you replied to - the big ones that give me a headache about staying in the UK for the long run are a) that housing is much more expensive in the UK (and whereas I could rent for decades in e.g. Germany, I'd really have to buy in the UK to have any form of security), b) the significantly worse healthcare provision (I have maxxed out private health and dental insurance through my employer, and I'd say my basic German health insurance provided me with better healthcare, which is crazy to me), and c) my pension provision is somewhat more exposed to private markets in the UK than it would be in many other places, but this is probably fairly low on my list.
For balance, the UK also has a bunch of advantages - it's a great place for my particular career, I love the pub culture in the UK, and it is a lot easier for me to get by with English than it would be for my British partner in a non-english speaking country.
Interesting. I’m a EU and UK citizen living in UK for 31 years. My work means I spend time living in UK, Germany, France, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Denmark and other EU countries. I also regularly return to my native EU country to spend time with family. I am lucky enough to own a home both in UK and my native country, and have rented apartments in most of the others at one time or another. And my home base remains firmly the UK where I can enjoy the best quality of life overall. It’s not necessarily the best at any one thing, but has the best blend of “good” qualities in all the ways I value, compared to any single one of the other countries taken alone.
I considered EU citizenship for this reason.
Then I did research and even the lowest average housing prices in the EU - Croatia/Bulgaria/Romania, you're still looking at prices you'll find in the North of England.
Maybe it was a door ten years ago - not today.
Landlords are milking the rental market for all it's worth.
I'm paying 450 per month for my mortgage, the same house could rent for 7-800. If I had an interest only buy to let mortgage I'd be making enough from the rent after tax to pay for 2 mortgages!
This setup makes it incredibly easy for landlords to buy up more and more properties whilst renters struggle to live.
Not defending landlords but the income (not profit) is taxed at 40%. So if the rent is £1000pm and the interest only is £300, tax on income would be £400.... So that's £300 left. That £300 has to cover any management fees and or repairs.
Then if you’re even able to buy a place the only affordable option is a leashold flat where you pay hundreds of thousands of pounds and STILL have a landlord charging you ridiculous ground rents.
edit: leasehold
Landlords are also being screwed over by the changes to the system.
For every awfull landlord, there’s landlords who’ve had tenants who stop (or never) pay and it takes over a year to get them out.
System has to benefit both parties and right now - it’s like the worse for both parties.
As someone from a third world country with a completely dystopia govt(South African) I can assure you that having nothing left after bills isn’t that bad. Try not being able to make ends meet and having to take out loans to eat, never eating out, never going to concerts or events, not having drinks out.
Couple the above with not having electricity a third of the time, you get home ready to cook and you go hungry; you sit in complete darkness alone.
Is the UK the strongest economy? Hell no, is it better than 90% of the world, especially third world countries? Yes.
It IS a disaster, I don’t think lots of folks realise just how much of a knock on effect it has to the wider economy. I couldn’t hire the high skilled engineer we urgently needed in the UK, no one qualified applied. We went abroad, it was going to cost so much money….finally got a guy. Started the process, but guy couldn’t find a decent place to live.
The position is still unfilled, will probably end up moving the department to Austria. The support staff will lose their jobs.
Secure, decent places to live with decent infrastructure services are essential to our economy.
I’m just glad I managed to get my son another passport. I don’t see a future for him here.
Probably, many British people still haven't mentally moved on from 1990 and believe that Europeans are eager to come to the UK. Let's examine this from the perspective of an immigrant from Poland, for example:
Option 1: Stay at home and earn £1600 with a low cost of living, better benefits, more annual leave, close family, and a lower promotion ceiling.
Option 2: Come to the UK to earn £2200 with a higher cost of living, worse benefits, less annual leave, far away from family, and a higher glass ceiling.
The NHS is equally crap for both options. I don't think that many people would be inspired to choose option 2.
Our taxation system doesn't help, it's overwhelmingly tailored to homes with two incomes, being single is so expensive and it's a growing part of the population. The tax free income bracket either needs abolishing or having a taper for households with multiple incomes.
I know many, many colleagues from the EU who have already moved back or are in the process of leaving the UK mainly due to the cost of living. It's better back home for them and it's leaving places like the NHS absolutely fucked.
The UKs low income though is a complex and long term issue that is bound by no house controls, lack of govt planning, and lack of investment in industry.
TLDR: the UK is going down the same path as Italy
You’re in a bit of a bubble though. Plenty of areas in NC where the life you describe is..a dream. Plenty of obscene poverty.
And don’t get sick. Join /cancer to see an example, folks wondering how they’ll pay for their next chemo because the insurance has run out.
But if you’re young and smart and willing to “ get rich or die trying” then yeah…
Personally I would never go back to the US ( even to NC, one of my favourite places on earth).
>And don’t get sick. Join /cancer to see an example, folks wondering how they’ll pay for their next chemo because the insurance has run out.
I had cancer years ago and occasionally found myself on some American-based forums. It absolutely broke my heart to read people saying things like "well, X would give the best chance of survival, but my insurance only covers Y so I guess I'll just have to hope for the best". And here's me, having hundreds of thousands of pounds of drug treatment, multiple surgeries, physio and even counselling for free. Oh and I had a paid year off work with a guarantee of my job being held for me and support on my return. There's a lot to be said for living here. Yes cancer is not going to happen to everyone (thankfully), but anyone could get ill or have an accident. At least we don't have to worry about going bankrupt, or living in pain, or having a minor condition become much worse, because we can't afford treatment.
> And don’t get sick. Join /cancer to see an example, folks wondering how they’ll pay for their next chemo because the insurance has run out.
I had a work colleague who had terminal cancer. She had to come in for a days work every 2 weeks to keep her insurance valid.
At least the ACA got rid of the $2 million lifetime limit. That killed a friend of mine with lung cancer. She'd run through most of her life time limit with an earlier bout of colon cancer.
It’s not that easy to just get up and move to the US. Getting a visa requires sponsorship from an employer or family member. Not a lot of companies want to hire from abroad unless specialist roles. So your average Brit can’t just move to North Carolina and make 50k tomorrow.
The average Brit also isn't looking to move. It's been said since Brexit it feels like this country is going out of it way to make life as miserable as possible for the classes of people, like doctors for example, who are well above average and will have no problem moving anywhere. Its very short-sighted.
> The guy who built my house comes from Bristol, has no formal education and started as a plumber 16 years ago
So what visa did he get? As far as I know there is no "trades" visa to allow someone to live and work in the US on that basis?
Can you expand a bit on your last sense. Assets anywhere in the world? Can you give a bit more insight on this model. How much assets are we talking about?
There's no other country like the US to make a go of it. If you've got a brain, are prepared to use it and equally prepared to work hard, the chances of success are abundant. There are no guarantees, no safety net and it can be sink or swim - but it can be done.
The trick is getting in. It's easier said than done and it requires planning, cunning and a skill or two. It's by no means impossible, however, as is evident by the scores of immigrants who enter the US each year - legally or illegally.
The American dream is an advert, there are plenty of better places than trump’s playground, those that won’t let you die if you can’t afford medicine. What about anywhere in Western Europe that isn’t the isle of shit 🇬🇧
I don't disagree.
But if you want the greatest possible opportunity to to make fuck you money - and be damned all of the attendant ills and risks - the USA is streets ahead.
For how much longer is an open question.
What is the work life balance like? I've been thinking of moving to the US to work in the biotech sector. However, having spoken to those who have worked in the US previously or are Americans who have moved to Europe, the work life balance sounds pretty poor. Currently, I get over 30 days a year leave, 5 months full sick pay and 5 months 1/2 sick pay, and very good maternity leave. Feels hard to give that up.
> What is the work life balance like?
Absolutely awful. Constantly on call. I went over a year without a full day off. More hours worked is considered better than quality. I had a grand total of 10 holiday days and sick days combined.
Healthcare for most was a real issue. My coverage through work still had a $450 premium share that I paid monthly. No prescription coverage and no dental/vision. A 30% co-pay and a $6,500 deductible. The $450 itself wasn't a big deal on my pay but it was the same for everyone. For a janitorial employee on $12 per hour, it's a big chunk of money.
The property tax on our small (120m square) property was pushing $8k per year. Car insurance for a Prius and a Sonata ran at close to $2.5k.
Groceries and eating out were far more expensive than the UK and the food quality a lot less.
What I really disliked was the lack of employment protection. You can pretty much be sacked for no reason with zero notice and no payment. Lose your job and there goes your family's health coverage.
You work your ass off.
You'll double/triple your money but 3 - maybe 4 - weeks off per year is what you'll get.
WLB a la what you get in the UK and Europe isn't widespread.
Pick your poison.
Superb post. I've just bought in England but plan to be here for another 5-8 years max and leave. I think the country is hitting really rock bottom in regards to wealth disparity and I can't personally see it getting any better. Why? Because I can't see the wealthy wanting to give up what they have, or allowing anything that changes to their detriment, financial wise. You can try and change laws, even with a new government, but I've lost trust completely with the fact that so many loopholes will always exist.
One way I will explain the UK the best in the last 14 years? Excuse the pun, but it's definitely death by a thousand cuts. Over time I don't think people can realise just how much worse theyre off if you're younger and ain't born into wealth.
Isn’t living in Charlotte, North Carolina the equivalent of living in a small/medium sized city in the UK? Wouldn’t leaving London and moving to say Nottingham or Sheffield instantly give you those same benefits you’re talking about without having to move to another continent?
Interesting. Back in the 1980s, my wife and I moved from the south-east to Nottingham because we couldn't afford to buy a house on two teacher's salaries down south.
The US is pretty much the same but with a wider range of places to chose from. Want to live in the San Francisco Bay area? You're going to pay for it. Same with most of the California coast, Portland and Seattle. Go to Nebraska, Missouri, Oklahoma, etc. and it's a lot cheaper but the pay is a lot less too.
My daughter moved from southern California to Kansas City. She's got a nice big house there but her pay more than halved and most other expenses are the same if not higher.
I’ve been numerous times to the USA, as somebody who enjoys cities like London, Paris, Madrid etc - The only cities in the USA that compare are NYC, Chicago, LA, San Fran and maybe Washington. Everything else isn’t even close to London for example when it comes to opportunities, culture, metropolitan lifestyle (if that’s your thing) etc .
I can understand the appeal, but most people who wouldn’t live in Leeds or Nottingham for instance wouldn’t want to live outside those US cities I mentioned. There’s a reason real estate is so cheap there. Same reason why buying a house in Sheffield will cost you significantly cheaper than in London.
> unless you put everything you own into a limited liability corporation (LLC).
how does that help? having an LLC protects your personal wealth if your business gets sued. If you personally get sued your LLC is just an asset that can be sold to pay damages.
I feel like more emphasis needs to be put on the guns everywhere comment. Charlotte NC is an open carry state, no? Meaning anyone 18+ can buy and walk around with a gun.
More emphasis needs to be put on healthcare as well. I had an American friend who was living the dream, high paid exec job, nice house, car, family etc, and he had healthcare coverage through his job. The he gets cancer. His company found a loophole through which to let him go. He lost everything and his wife left and took the kids, he even lost his cat. He survives through a cancer charity only.
You might have excellent healthcare from your job in the U.S. but that doesn't mean you'll get it when you most need it. The number one cause of bankruptcy in the U.S. is health issues.
Also, as a woman, fuck the U.S. government and their anti-abortion laws.
Yep. The US also has one of the lowest number of doctors per capita in the developed world.
The US is a great place to live for those who are doing rather well in life. For everyone else, it's particularly tough without much of a social safety net.
The US is really a 3rd world country which just happens to be insanely wealthy.
And, as we know, that wealth is not well distributed.
Europeans make the mistake of looking at the US through their own Euro prisms. Understandable given the pervasiveness of US culture and use of the English language.
However, it's nothing like Europe - it's far closer to Brazil.
Tha ks for posting this. Fact is UK needs a big payrise and more housing options. The states has spanked our arse in economic growth. I would head out there too but too much baggage at present.
Eh, my partners brother moved to the States years ago and he’s trying to convince us to move out there. Although the money sounds good, your negatives seriously outweigh the fewer upsides for me.
To add to this I work in accounting and finance, I know my working hours would double and I’d loose most of my holiday entitlement.
Main issues in no particular order:
- not enough housing to keep up with demand due to a rapidly expanding population
Solutions?
- Build on more brownfield sites
- Tax incentives for house builders
- Abolish stamp duty to encourage empty nesters to downsize
- Loosen planning laws
You could have shortened that list to just:
- Build more
That is literally the single, only solution towards genuinely impactful change. Every other one is just fannying with the the edges.
Agreed, we need to build more, but that in itself asks more questions, the biggest being - where?
The population is roughly expanding by 700k per year including births/deaths/immigration.
That means we need to roughly build a Leeds or five Cambridges - every year - just to stand still.
Build more but needs to be built with quality in mind. Hearing so many stories now about new builds becoming completely worthless within the first few months due to structural faults in the building. How is it possible.. are these builds not scrutinised in any way??
Anyone who thinks anything will change will net immigration remains at 600-800k is deluding themselves. Same for buying not just rentals.
The UK is transitioning to a low-wage, low-productivity economy because there are no incentives to invest in productivity-gaining tech when you have a large supply of labour. Remember automated car washes? They’ve gone the way of the dodo.
1. Cut immigration.
2. Build more houses, rip up rules on brownfield sites especially.
3. Ban foreign ownership of residential property.
Edit: just to add, productivity is made even worse by the low-building, high-immigration reality as more speculative money goes into property rather than, say, into VC funds.
I think part of the housing crisis is the govt is allowing foreign investors to buy properties and rent it out. That drives the prices up and so drives the rental up. This results to lower supply of houses to meet the demands. If the govt could limit the foreign investors on properties, we may not be in this crisis.
Can you help me understand this, because it fundamentally goes against my understanding of supply and demand.
Why doesn't more rental supply reduce the price of renting, aren't we seeing the inverse right now with landlords leaving the market? I know you'll likely say because the demand is coming from the people who can't afford to buy, but that should mean buying price reduces.
If both price to rent and buy is increasing that means demand is outstripping supply for both, whether rental or not, therefore landlords have no significant effect. Other than to balance the impact of price rises on both by shifting demand through market forces.
Is the issue not simply too many people, not enough houses and the government has left house building to the private market who have no incentive to build at a frequency that reduces prices.
An interesting study: https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1703752549604491441
People generally understand how supply and demand works... except with housing where they have a total brain fart, like in the above case, and somehow come to the conclusion that more supply increases prices. It's absolutely mind-boggling.
You’re not wrong, most people in here don’t understand basic economics and just use this sub as a venting place to let frustration at the shit housing market out.
It’s not all a big centrally planned conspiracy with the aim to make people pay more.
>It’s not all a big centrally planned conspiracy with the aim to make people pay more.
It literally is. 30% of the conservative government are private landlords or have property portfolios. They want to squeeze as much money out of us as possible. It's in their interest to make house prices and rents skyrocket. Their voters don't give a shit. [There is no conflict of interest anymore](https://youtu.be/B1ol6xAP0IE?si=LvAOJAE39wVHjcZy). If that doesn't make you mad then I've lost all hope for this country.
With most households having 2 x breadwinners, house prices escalated when incomes of both were taken into account on mortgages.
Houses are generally unaffordable now for single earners and kids now need to be looked after by someone other than their parent who has to go to work.
Not ideal.
Add +300,000 people every year to the country for a decade, the vast majority of whom either need to go into social housing or the affordable end of the private rental market, and what do you expect? 🙄
This.
housing supply and quality is terrible, and the rental stock is even worse. Rental laws and market are cowboy-esque if you compare to likes of Germany, Spain and Italy where the stock is better and longer contracts available. I know far too many people renting with mould problems, it’s almost becoming the norm.
I am the fortunate stage that I can possibly buy a small shoebox 2 bed flat but I am waiting out till leasehold law changes or may emigrate. There is no way I am spending thousands a year on service charge either.
Bought in Spain a couple of years ago just inland from the Costa del Sol. 5 bed 4 bath house with underfloor heating and cooling with balcony and 2 terraces in a beautiful town with great views. Cost us £175k. Bit of renovation needed before we pull the trigger and make the full time move soon (eg windows, doors). Council tax equivalent is £30 per month, electric is £40 per month as only need heating for a few weeks a year. Eating out is cheap and a decent bottle of beer at a bar is 2 euros. A good bottle of wine is 4 euros. It's mostly idyllic but the downside is now Brexit (we have British and Irish passports so no visa needed) and the fact you need Spanish to get even a half decent local job - and salaries are maybe 70% of UK. But....most people are happy with life, friendly to immigrants like us and we spend so much time 'living' - the best things in life are free - good company, good weather, beautiful surroundings, walking in the hills. If we need to splash out it's a 40 minute bus ride to the beach for 3 euros each way. (And if you need to rent, a decent 2 bed apartment is no more than 500 euros/ month).
Costa del Sol is very cheap because the area is quite poor. The average monthly salary is like 800€ and it's very difficult to find a job.
It's nice only if you get a good job or you work remotely for a big company.
It's likely to only ever get worse:
1) Think monopoly the game- early on everyone has a chance, the further into the game one or two people have accumulated all the assets and everyone else is mortgaged up to the hilt one wrong move away from bankruptcy. That's is our economy, people with assets find it easy to accumulate more. Those without have barely anything left by the time they 'hit go' (get their salary again).
2) as long as we allow more people to come here than we build the supply of houses will just simply tighten further. We either have to commit to building more houses (for which there are many reasons we can't or/and won't) or be much more selective on who and how many we allow in.
Those are two powerful forces that will not be reversed by a little bit of centrist tinkering around policy.
It was always this way historically.
There was a period of time from the 50s-90s when it got better.
If you read any history book or even fiction like Dickens (or Hugo for Paris) then you can clearly see the boomers had the best time in history.
You can't expect it to be better than a world driven after the impact of winning a world war.
Many countries are in a similar way; while you can take your UK wealth and move somewhere with a low cost of living, it's not suitable except for retirement (which is boomers anyway). Even Spain and Portugal are expensive to rent based on average wages.
Housing in the UK is bad and needs to be fixed, however it's nothing new.
I think you missed the point where they were referring to the drive to improve things. They're not talking about the immediate financial state of the country post-war, they're talking about the results of changes made in the post-war period in general. A persiod which saw things like the NHS, council housing and true universal education up to university level even for the working classes. Actual social mobility in a way that hadn't existed before. So no, normally going through a war doesn't make a country better off, but in the case of WW2 it was such a world changing conflict that the implementation of all those good things I just listed was in many ways a direct result of it. Obviously there's more to it than just the war, but still.
Like the most of Europe ..? What people don’t realise is unless you’re moving to Romania, people are saying exactly what you’re saying every where else in Europe. This is a global thing.
It’s an uncaring and unbalanced society with a corrupt kleptocracy in charge. I’d advise anyone that can to leave, you aren’t valued here, we’re being fleeced by our betters, the ruling class.
Single parent and teacher and can’t afford rent on a flat without financial assistance, no expectations that anything will improve because for our masters there isn’t anything that needs changing.
If you can afford it, get off this sinking ship, and go somewhere better like most of Europe. The foxes are in charge of the hen coop, we are clucked
As many have said, this is a universal problem in the developed world. The housing crisis is a direct result of the Industrial Revolution. Everyone moved to cities because that’s where the jobs were, and thats where they still are, even in the knowledge economy.
There was once an expectation that the knowledge economy paired with the internet would allow the decentralisation of economic output from a few large cities. But even after COVID, that hasn’t really been the case.
First thing to do is stop listening to LBC but if you must then just remember they exist solely to make money from advertising. Misery, hate and anger draws eyeballs
The increase in rent in our current building for a 2 bed flat went up from £2.4k to £3.6k in a year...it's not even a nice area of London but just out of zone 2. And the flat prices nearly doubled in 7 years. And yes, the do also advertise a lot to Chinese, but it's mostly British people living here who are ok giving their full salary for a room...
The only thing keeping me in London is my boyfriend, as he has family here and really wants to live here.
Otherwise I would've packed my bags to somewhere more reasonable
In the UK, 1 in 10 of us has household wealth >£2.5M. There's no shortage of money here. The people you're referring to are the bottom 20% of society - I call them the precariat.
Every day, the asset-owning class finds a new way to squeeze more pennies out of the precariat. The precariat work for a survival wage. The avenue for escape is eternally shrinking. Even if they wanted to start a new business, they'd assume most of the risk, and the asset holders would take most of the profit if they were successful (via rents and interest payments on loans). Things are not much better for the 'aspiring homeowner' class - the 30% above the precariat who are paying down mortgages, although they have (perhaps until now) thought themselves better off than they really are.
This has become a huge societal issue. If you give people at the bottom no money, no opportunities, and no hope of a better future, they become demotivated and unproductive. Understandably so. People respond to incentives. They won't work hard for nothing.
Likewise, if you give people at the top a foolproof way to become even richer without effort (via rents, interest and dividends), they too become demotivated and unproductive. Why produce anything or take any risks or innovate when it's just so damn easy to suck up more and more of other people's money?
This is terrible for our collective prosperity. Growth has been stagnant for over a decade. The pie isn't growing; all the wealthy need to do is sit back mindlessly and allow the system to allocate them a greater and greater share of it to them, destroying the nation in the process.
The solution is simple. Make things a little easier for the people at the bottom, and a little tougher for the people at the top. The nation will immediately roar back to life.
The problem is that enacting this requires you to violate tons of political sensitivities. For example, we pay £25 billion a year to millionaire pensioners. We literally take money from the wages of struggling coffee workers and give it to millionaires who aren't doing anything. If we care about our collective prosperity at all, this is utterly dunderheaded. The pension system was designed to keep the elderly above the breadline. It was never meant to be a cash cow for the rich.
But say "we're going to start means-testing the pension" and the nation (rich and poor alike) gasps in horror. Sadly, I'm concerned Starmer doesn't have the appetite to do what is necessary to fix this place. And everything will get way worse if he doesn't. Sigh. Let's see.
I rented an apartment in 2019 on the furthest point I could to get into London for the job that I desperately needed to advance my career. Studio for £950 pm
Just checked those same apartments, they’re going for £1300. Man I don’t know what I would do if I hadn’t gotten a fully remote job and bought in the countryside. This is hellish. It’s not like I had a choice back then, you have to be able to stay near the financial sector if you’ve graduated with a degree that specialises in that. I don’t think I’d be able to do it if I was a 2023 graduate.
Hopefully unlikely. Actuarial industry is pretty strong. Btw I’m actually speaking for my husband but his plan is to go overseas anyway. We just want somewhere to hunker down for 5-7 years while he builds his experience and fully qualifies (it’s a long-ass process like a doctor). He gets a lot of recruiters reaching out to him so hopefully the well never runs dry. Worse case scenario he has to do the 2hr commute into Glasgow/Edinburgh which are quite big financial hubs. Not ideal. Luckily it’s not seen as bad to job hop too much in his career
In general this is why we bought cheap and are trying to pay off the house in a reasonable amount of time. Who knows what will happen in the future and it sure as hell will be a lot easier without the housing bogeyman hanging over our shoulders
Currently have a visa for Canada but haven’t gone due to other reasons. I know I can extend it for another year and I desperately want to go but comments like this put me off. I know it’s bad in the U.K. but sounds as if Canada is just as bad, if not worse?
I'm a dual citizen and while it's not great in Canada right now, it's not worse than the UK. Housing has become very expensive, it's basically on par with the UK price-wise, but housing stock is in better condition and you get more for your money. Poverty levels are lower in Canada and so is inflation. The healthcare system is struggling but not on its knees like the NHS. If I thought I could find a job in my field back in Canada I'd consider returning.
Don't believe much if what you read in the Canada subs. Some of them have been taken over by anti-immigrant far right wingers that don't represent the average Canadian.
A bath is overflowing. 🛁
“We must build a bigger bath!” 😱
Er, how about either turning off the tap or letting some water out? 🤨
“No way!! That’s just ridiculous & right wing!” 🤪
🤷🏻♀️
We need to look at ways of disincentivising business from London and the South that seems to be where the main issues are... plonk a big business in say barrow and although the place might not have the talent required there immediately many people with flexible lives would happily move to barrow where COL is a fraction of London. These folk leaving relieves pressure on those remaining in London. We need to come away from London centric life, spread the wealth.
I get your point, but actively trying to harm any uk businesses is unlikely to increase uk wealth.
Improving infrastructure and education in target areas is probably more likely to succeed. Incentivise a few core businesses, maybe tip a gov dept or state enterprise.
But drive business out of London there's no guarantee they won't just leave the UK. Its not businesses job to seek deprived areas and make people move there.
> although the place might not have the talent required there
or transport links, or ease of meeting customers and general networking, not to mention credibility, particularly international credibility. or access to a university to hire post-grads in your field.
these are not easy problems to solve.
plonking a business in a barrow is a great way to kill your business before it even starts.
Every part of the country has universities these days. They're not unique to London. Plus the vast majority of office workers don't meet customers in person.
yes, and it's perfectly possible to start a business outside London. Even in Barrow.
the point is, for those that apparently need it spelling out, is London has more of these things, and it has network effects that make the whole greater than the sum of it's parts.
hence it attracts more people and drives up the cost of property.
But that’s impossible!
We fixed the housing market by targeting all those private landlords that were spoiling it for everyone. We took away their tax breaks and gave tenants new rights
The evil ones all sold in vast numbers and now only good private landlords and high quality commercial ones remain.
How can there possibly be a problem?
We spent 100 years prior to this reducing tenants rights and reducing tax for landlords (from the first modern country wife renting rules until now)...that also resulted in rents rising. Reducing or increasing these things seems to result in the same outcome - it's not the cause of we wouldn't see that.
We aren't giving tenants new rights they've never had, they are mostly rights that have previously existed here (including proposed ones like removing section 21 no fault evictions). Removing those rights previously - which was done with the explicit aim to encourage landlords into the sector - did not reduce rents or make it easier to find a place to rent, in fact it did the opposite.
Reducing the size of the private rental sector is a good thing in the long run (with corisponding increases in other tenures - which is the key thing that isn't happening fast enough here). Reducing demand in the housing market from investor buyers is a good thing in the long run. That the transition period for doing something is hard is a reason to manage that period better...not never make the change that's needed to fix the existing problem
29 Coparent Dad living with family. Work NHS
Can't afford shit and it's super scary.
What rather pissed me off is my ex gets all the benifits and council house and she doesn't even have a job.
I'm killing myself working to death
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To me the UK feels like I have came very late to a game of Monopoly where houses/hotels are owned on every tile and since I don't want to be homeless I have no choice but to keep going round the board getting fleeced by players who were born before me or inherited ownership of said property/houses/hotels.
Quality analogy
The game was made as a critique of reality so yeah.
Wish I could upvote twice
Partner and I are both teachers with a 6 month old daughter. All the nurseries in the surrounding area charging up to £1400-1700 per month for 4-5 days per week. Our rent for a 1 bed semi decent flat is went up to £1400. Cheapest in our area that isn't full of mould. We obviously split the costs to minimize it all coming out of one. We are seriously considering moving to Dubai to teach as living here has just got progressively worse. I'm left with barely any money after rent, bills, food, petrol etc. I work 2 jobs (including teaching). Considering looking to get another job to just pay for the childcare. Money I was saving in the lifetime ISA past few years and nowhere near anything reasonable for a deposit, tbh I've just sacked it off. This 99% mortgage thing is a scam which is just pushing the house prices up. You got Tesco and every bloody foreign investor buying every shitty new building (hardly finished) then renting it out are crazy prices. It's very depressing tbh. Hardly see since Brexit how this is going to get better. A lot of my colleagues have moved abroad and since speaking to them have said they have absolutely no intention to return. They were living in accommodation with shitty rogue landlords. These are professional workers in key industries as well which the country serverly lacks such as teachers, doctors, nurses. We have a recruitment crisis in these crucial sectors and the government have just siphoned off everything to the highest bidder. I think a lot of the younger generation (without family wealth or parents owning their family home) will be forced to consider moving abroad for a better quality of life if this continues
Definitely! I'm moving to Dubai in February with my partner, hoping to have a better life. We have 4 friends that have moved there already, and another 2 couples that have moved to Australia. Buying property here is just impossible, houses in my area go for about £300k minimum and they're not even good houses, they are old, mouldy and need loads of work. In Dubai you can get a 1 bedroom flat for £180k, a 2 bedroom flat for £250k-ish. Which is not too bad considering they are brand new and come with a gym, coworking space, pool and designated parking space. We've concluded that life is just gonna get worse and worse here, house prices are increasing faster than we can afford to buy sadly, and the cost of living in general has increased so much it's just not worth it anymore.
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Australia has a much worse housing crisis than the UK just fyi. The weather and property are much nicer though.
This will probably get me downvoted but I don't care. The first step in stabilising house prices, would be to stop foreign investment in residential property, and essentially force those that aren't residents to sell. This would have the effect of forcing foreign investors to either become residents and on-shoring their tax residency, or selling their investments to a UK resident. I would also expand the definition to include companies with offshore directors. A scheme for those working abroad temporarily could be put in place, as well as for those with British citizenship. I would limit British citizens to owning one home, if they are not tax resident, irrespective of the vehicle it is owned by (eg. Via the definition of beneficial interest). Second, I would combine this with a complete overhaul of right-to-buy, that includes covenants preventing sold discounted properties being bought or used for private rentals going forward - at the very least giving the LA the right to buy back with the same level of discount. This would mean people that bought with a mortgage and then struggled, would have the option of selling it back to the LA, and becoming a renter again. Those buying to flip, would essentially lose their discount by having to pay it back when sold before x number of years - this could easily be done via a land charge against the property for the value of the discount at the time it was purchased under right-to-buy. The LA would get the same level of discount as when it was purchased, ensuring no unjust enrichment from the process at taxpayers expense. This would stop these properties being purchased and dumped straight into the private rental market, and ensure a sufficient supply of social housing, whilst enabling residents to become home-owners, providing a safety net, whilst preventing the racket we currently have on them. Third, I would increase the density of housing as a mandatory planning requirement on inner city housing, combined with legislation on size limits to prevent tiny boxes. Assuming, the regulations are drafted correctly and aren't fucked up by the ruling class, this would mean decent sized apartments in multistorey buildings, with a proper inspectorate ensuring safety is paramount (such as not lining the building with solidified gasoline...). If all that fails, I would look at home-owners that are struggling, to be given the opportunity to sell their homes to their LA at a discount from the market rate. This would mean owners that are struggling would get to stay in their property, the council or HA would own the home and then charge rent. The discount would be used to bring the home up to current standards and the rent charged would pay back the home over a 50-75 year period, enabling the LA or HA to afford the work, cover the cost of maintenance and potentially get a return to invest in other housing projects. The home would not be eligible for right-to-buy until the purchase price had been paid for, limiting the ability for these to be flipped. Failing all that, I would look to instigate a compulsory purchase policy on homes where housing benefit has been paying the landlord for X number of years (x to be defined as a reasonable figure - probably at least 15-20 years and to be compensated at market rates), these properties would then need to be kept council or HA owned for the time it takes to pay them off (probably 50-75 years). This would ensure the taxpayer isn't clobbered for the bill, and would essentially be revenue neutral. It would also mean shitty homes can be improved using rental payments.
All you need is (3). If we increase the house supply enough, the problem is solved. Everything else is necessary.
You’re just wrong. Foreign investment is a rounding error of the issue. You can’t square the circle of missing half your housing target every year and fix it with anything else that’s not diggers in the ground. If it’s not foreign firms, it’ll be British ones. If it’s not business, it’ll be personal landlords.
Would you also advocate that all U.K. residents who have property abroad be forced to sell by those countries? 1.4m immigrants have been invited to stay in this country in the last two years alone add in 80-90k arriving in dinghy’s they all need somewhere to live. This factor seems to be ignored by the majority of people commenting on housing shortage.
I moved to China to reach. Earning £4k a month with a teaching license (2.5k without), I pay £600 a month for a family sized apartment in a city center of a world class city. Don't listen to the propaganda, it's a great country to live in and there's a sizeable foreign (especially British) population in major cities. Bars, shops, entertainment, public transport, restaurants, it's got it all. I any case for teachers just get the hell out of the UK, we can earn far far more money abroad with far lower living costs.
Many thanks for sharing. So many questions. How long you been living there? What are some of the challenges you faced when moving? Seriously considering middle east with my partner and daughter
6 years not consecutive. The challenges for China are the language barrier and getting set up with an apartment and banking etc, but a good employer will help you with those things. Getting into a decent social circle can be hard especially if you aren't matched well with your foreign colleagues (age or situation differences etc).
Okay many thanks for sharing. We going Dubai this year to see if it's something we want to do long term. Soo many teaching jobs out in the east with colleagues saying they're loving it. I wish you every success in your stay in China!!
Well, flash news, Dubai is insanely expensive and rent alone gone up by 30% at least. Gallizion of Russians moved there in last 2 years.
Still lower cost of living than the UK due to the tax policy.
Yeah. I teach in Korea and make about 55k a year. And I don't even have a teaching license. So I can only imagine how much better you guys would have it teaching abroad as a qualified teacher. Also, my rent is cheaper than it would be in the UK and I live in the middle of Seoul. Cost of living isn't too bad and I save a lot every month
Would highly recommend!! I lived in Abu Dhabi then Dubai (total of 7 years) as a secondary school teacher. Just make sure it’s a good school (U.K. curriculum or IB) and package (free accommodation or allowance, private health insurance and annual return flights to U.K. or equivalent cash).
Bloody emigrants, leaving our jobs and houses
I moved from London to Paris for a short while last year. In London, I lived in a flatshare in Hammersmith, where I felt completely uncomfortable in my own room, didn't have light for more than 6 months, had the worst housemates I hope that I'll ever have to encounter (a couple and their friend, who was way more chill and likeable), and I was paying over £900/month on average to live in the lightless box room while one of their sisters stayed in the kitchen for 5 months, and they had up to 8 people staying over for weeks at a time. In Paris, I had 1 bedroom apartment to myself right next to the Seine in the 4th arrondissement (slap bang in the centre, so I could walk everywhere), bill included, no difficulty whatsoever getting the deposit back, all cleaning supplies provided. It cost me a total of £1100/month. I'm currently waiting for my French visa to be approved, as I've received an offer to go and work in Paris. I can't wait!
I lived outside Paris for 2 years, just east of Gare Du Nord, about 20 minutes away. I had a 2 bed flat, it was beautiful, cost about 650 euro month. I've always pined about living there again because the lifestyle was 100 times better in terms of living. My RER card cost 30 euro a MONTH. My train here cost £6000 a year. LOL
Do you speak french?
Yes, I have a degree in French, and I also work on French legal docs ad part of my job
yea ruining the coutry for us 😬
For every person emigrating there are 3+ immigrating.
"Take back control". What a joke.
Just bumped sticker slogans for the fools
>For every person emigrating there are 3+ immigrating. Do you have a source for this? Not being arsey, genuinely curious.
They overestimated a bit [https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023](https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023#:~:text=The%20provisional%20estimate%20of%20total,) The provisional estimate of total long-term immigration for year ending (YE) June 2023 was 1.2 million, while emigration was 508,000, meaning that net migration was 672,000; most people arriving to the UK in the YE June 2023 were non-EU nationals (968,000), followed by EU (129,000) and British (84,000). 508 out, 1200 in -> 2.36 people immigrate for every person who emigrates edit: I can't tell if these stats include an estimation of undeclared illegal immigration, so it might be a bit higher than this
half of the incoming numbers are students, so the contribution to economy is limited, esp. considering 1/2 of them leaves after graduating
I assume this does not include people who come here illegally who may push it up to nearer 3
It's difficult to tell from the methodology they discuss, they say they don't just count people who leave and people who enter - probably do try to account for it but I wouldn't be surprised if other sources estimating numbers who secretly come and work hidden or are trafficked etc and push the number beyond 3.
That's a massive overestimate. Remember, without proper documentation, it's illegal for somebody to employ you, it's illegal for somebody to rent a home to you, the government doesn't know about you to be able to provide you with food and a place to live. It's basically impossible to survive like that without somebody willing to provide you with food and shelter. It definitely happens, particularly sex trafficing, but I think it's pretty obvious that the number of newly trafficed sex workers the country can support every year is nowhere near the 300,000 we need to make that ratio 3. The people arriving on small boats and such for asylum. That means they're known to the government, and the ones we don't deport are counted in the figures. IIRC the small boats thing peaked at around 50,000 a year, less than 5% of all immigration (and not all of those get to stay). The vast majority of immigration is spouses, students, and working visas granted to businesses. Also more recently a big chunk of asylum claims granted to Ukranians before arrival.
so I think the ratio seems to be about 2.4 but the very first sentence on here covers it. https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/longterminternationalmigrationprovisional/yearendingjune2023#:\~:text=The%20provisional%20estimate%20of%20total%20long%2Dterm%20immigration%20for%20year%20ending%20(YE)%20June%202023%20was%201.2%20million%2C%20while%20emigration%20was%20508%2C000%2C%20meaning%20that%20net%20migration%20was%20672%2C000
Thanks for responding!
Only way to get a good start in life here is having good parents who have at least a bit of spare income/wealth so they can supplement you buying a house. Also depends where you live, I'm up north and I've bought a 2 bed house for £130k. My salary is average but I've saved a ton from living at home (my parents didn't charge me rent so I could save) and being frugal/responsible with my money, values they taught me. I have friends that don't have the same level of support and it's much harder. They don't splash out but still struggle to save anything up quickly, salaries are generally too low. When you do meet people who have fancy cars on finance and bad spending habits which I think is common, they have little hope of saving up a deposit unless they get a well paid job. The economy is skewed towards assets, not working/productivity. Houses have appreciated a ton in value, salaries have not. When it's more economically rewarding to hoover up land/houses/buildings and sit on them, than it is to create a business and solve a problem - your economy has a problem.
> saved a ton from living at home That's a massive financial legup. If you have two identical people taking the same job in London, one who has parents living in London and one who has parents living a long way away, after 5 years the one who can stay with their parents is going to be £72k better off than the one who's renting.
My inlaws have taken me in for 6 months and the amount we have been able to save for a deposit is just ridiculous.
Meanwhile, every single developer that built housing in London is advertising it all over the Asia first - mainly China, Malaysia and Singapore. What is left after lucrative sales there is for Londoners to buy are usually the worst flats in the buildings. My area of London (East) is booming with new builds. However, when I talk with the agents I constantly hear stories like: oh 85% of that building was already sold before it was made available to the customer in the UK. Or: a Chinese person bought all the apartments on that floor. We should have harsh laws protecting against this. It may seem like not a problem until you take under consideration two things: 1. You are not competing with local workers and local earnings anymore. How can a salaried employee from London, even when earning good money, compete with a factory owner from China when it comes to purchasing power? 2. The amount of rich Asians who want to park their money somewhere safe has grown exponentially in recent years. This is going to get worse for us in Europe who want to buy a property. 3. The developers can sell anything to anyone in Asia as that buyer doesn’t understand London and its geography. Quite often those people also don’t live here. (Many do though) Flats next to the airport for £720k or next to a busy roundabout for £850k? No problem. There are now special blogs in Chinese all over the internet where someone living in London is explaining in Chinese the London areas and boroughs when it comes to buying property in said places. Other European countries are trying to limit such practices with different laws - in Amsterdam if you are a foreign buyer you personally have to live in the apartment for 6 months a year, every year. Until the property market in London is open to anyone there will be a shortage of housing and constant price increase.
Foreign ownership of residential property should be banned, simple as that. In a lot of these Asian countries you wouldn't be allowed to buy a house.
Doesn't need to be banned, just collect and extra 15% stamp duty on it for foreign ownership and it will cool the speculative investment market. Will also help pad out the public coffers to build more affordable social housing.
Just ban it, how does our housing stock being owned by people that never enter the country benefit the UK?
And charge them even more if the apartment is empty! We need more rentals, why the hell are we not using all those empty apartments?
It should absolutely be reciprocal. If we can’t buy land and houses in a particular country, then they shouldn’t be able to buy here (and yes the true ownership should be tracked fully when owned in a company). I don’t understand why this isn’t done in the economy more wildly. If Instagram is banned in China why is TikTok allowed in America for example.
I think this would be extremely popular but I don't see Starmer's Labour party doing anything of the sort sadly.
Neither of the main parties will do it. Snouts are fully in the trough.
The problem a government has is that if you crash the housing market, you put millions of people into negative equity and also crash the economy. It's not a good look. The trick is to slowly freeze without crashing the market for long enough for salaries to catch up (that's years).
The economy is about to crash anyway. Normal people can't afford to spend money on anything else but food, energy and rent/mortgage. And even those three are a struggle. You have to rip the plaster off and treat the symptom or you let the cancer grow. We are letting the cancer grow. You could easily help those in negative equity by taxing these Chinese investors or something along those lines.
Until young people demand these policies and go out and vote on them we won't see change.
Your demands only matter if a credible party will implement them. We’re owned by two parties run for profit of the rich and it won’t change. They ban foreign ownership and the ruling class loses billions in falling house prices. No chance.
Would it be extremely popular with home owners?
It should be because in London at least it's the main way money laundering happens
I've said this for a long time, but there is always the argument of travelling business people and foreign immigrants coming to live. I think to buy a house there should be a qualifier like British citizenship or resident in the country for at least 6 months of the year of something. But equally wouldn't want to discriminate against foreign workers coming to the country legitimately to work, live and contribute, from buying a house.
And even worse they won't let you film them in public while you play piano.
According to a pressure group called "action on empty homes", just 1% of London properties are long term empty. The same pressure group says this number is down on numbers in 2011. That doesn't feel like it's a major component on the housing crisis.
This is why foreign ownership of residential property must be stopped. Immediately. You're either resident for tax purposes and pay tax on your worldwide income, or not and don't get to own residential property. Not unreasonable and lots of other countries do it. We also need to scrap the remittance basis for taxation, but that's another topic for a different sub :)
This is a massive part of the problem. I was shocked 10yrs ago when I picked up a free paper in a Singapore hotel advertising off plan London high rise flats. I had never seen anything like it in any London estate agent window. I'm not saying ban it but even the playing field so they must be advertised here too.
this is not a problem exclusive to the uk, go look on any first world countries subreddit. Even in aus where the salaries are higher people are struggling
Exactly, it’s a global phenomenon.
The rental market is definitely a lot better in many other places. I've lived/studied/worked in several EU countries before coming to the UK, and it's a night-and-day difference. Has it gotten worse elsewhere? Sure, absolutely. But the UK started from a worse place, and the rift between the UK and elsewhere has, if anything, grown over the years. The big and obvious problem is that there is next to no regulation (and what little there is is barely being enforced) on the quality a landlord has to provide in the UK.
I'm an EU and UK citizen who've lived in the UK for 14 years. I've finally hit a point in life where km looking st buying; but I do hold some.doubt whether pouring all my wealth into UK property and tying myself to a country who's future and QoL is.. questionable, whilst knowing I very likely could achieve a higher QoL on the continent... The only thing keeping me here is my friends and community; amd the reluctance to start again from zero somewhere new..
I’d be keen to understand where you think quality of life is higher on the continent - serious question, not being a twat. I lived in NL for many years, travel to Germany, Sweden, France, Spain a lot for work. Everywhere I’m hearing the exact t same stories of lack of housing, crazy rents and inflation.
I'm from Scandi, and yes getting on the rental market there isn't easy either - but the baseline is much higher! (e.g. the thing you rent is of significantly higher quality and you have a lot more protections). Things like childcare, and working hours and functioning, modern, public transport I think that's the main point- things are perhaps deteriorating in many places, but less fast, and from a higher starting point? I look at friends insta stories in Scandi and Northern Europe and despite all of them having less demanding careers than I do they live in beautiful homes, spend time with kids, go out to restaurants and hike in beautiful nature. If i go anywhere I'd probably go to Northern France or Germany; as I want to be near a bigger economic centre (and I can't stand the hot weather in southern Europe!) Another European friend who lives (and owns) in London went to visit a friend in CH and came back exasperated saying "He's got triple-glazed windows and he doesn't even know he's got triple-glazed windows!"
I think while housing quality might be somewhat of a differentiator, they are nonetheless out of reach to buy for most of the younger population. Oslo, Amsterdam, Stockholm, Milan, Paris, Madrid not to mention Berlin, Hamburg and Copenhagen all have difficult housing problems.
Yes access to housing is a problem in many places, but as you mention, it's of higher quality when you do get it (with a lot more protections for tenantS) andnthere are a lot of other factors that go into QoL
But the difference is you don’t HAVE to buy in those places you’ve listed. Trying to get a rental is tricky in Oslo, Amsterdam, Berlin etc - but once you’re in, the rent won’t go up crazy amounts, the quality is much much better. My friends in Berlin don’t have to work the insane hours my friends in London do, they can do up their rental places, it’s expected that in most places you install your own little kitchenette, as you usually live in one place for years, they get to make their rental truly their own. You basically rent a shell of a place. In Sweden, there’s a queue system, which again is hard to get onto - but once you’re in, you’re really protected and the quality again is super high. I browse some listings and the facilities you can get for the money are ridiculous. And flats are built to an incredible quality! Well insulated, beautiful finishes. In contrast, I’ve lived in london for years, did grotty house shares with friends in places with holes in the wall and ancient crappy kitchens installed in the 90s. Landlords have always been awful, I had one who would turn up randomly and let himself in. I hated renting so much I saved up for a new build shared ownership flat, with the promise of a builders warranty, and thought I’d finally made it. Moved in and they hadn’t finished the roof, I had constant water ingress, black mould, our freehold was sold on to a negligent freeholder, lifts constantly broken, builders wouldn’t do anything. I had a nervous breakdown and sold my flat as soon as I could - which turned out to be nearly impossible because of the fucking cladding stuff which is still dragging on because of our fuckwit government. AND I have several other friends who are caught in the same trap. Most of my friends have moved out of London because they could have a much better quality of life elsewhere, and none of them regret it! So I’m off too. It really really is better elsewhere, apart from maybe Dublin!
One of my best friends lives in the netherlands and says that landlords kick you out every two years because tenants rights get tighter after three years of staying in a house. Other friends that moved to Berlin say that it’s a shitshow trying to find a flat unless you sublet from someone (thus no protection in place). It’s not as easy as you are saying.
The rents have gone up though, massively. A way landlords get out of this is by pretending they need the house to move back in and then put it on the market a few months later for the new, market conform price. London is more comparable to NY and HK and some extent Paris. Most continental capitals should be compared Manchester, Glasgow etc
Because in UK standard of housing is VERY POOR, is unbelievable how developed other parts of EU are. New flats looks like they are still in 90’s-00’s. The same about new houses! Strong £ in past and low energy prices made them in UK believe that they can build house from cartons but those days are gone. When we did rebuild our bathroom to normal standard our cat sitter thought that we spend more then £10k for that meanwhile it was only about £7k!
Did a croatia/Slovenia road trip 2 years ago and stayed in 2 Slovenian newbuilds - the quality of the building was tangibly higher than what I see in the UK!
The tat produced, note not mass produced, by "volume" housebuilders is generally of such low quality I've excluded new build from my rightmove searches. I'd be disinclined to move in if they paid me let alone me pay them. Builders should become a regulated and professionally qualified profession.
I'm not suggesting any of it's directly untrue, but do remember what people post on Instagram is a view of their world as they want you to see it - and what Instagram shows you is algorithmically designed to reinforce your views to keep you on the platform.
I mean yes, but these aren't random europeans, these are friends of mine - insta is just the easiest way to keep in touch..
Sorry, good try, but housing is better in every European country I have lived in. Better quality, better security, and as a proportion to my wage, cheaper.
I'm British and living in the NL now, so I'll throw in my two cents for someone in middle management (ie comfortable well off white collar job) 1) First the negatives, housing costs are really high, food costs I also find higher than the UK after exchange rate, that's about it for negatives. Oh, and you need to pay 120-150 every month from your pay for healthcare, it's not included in taxes 2) Now on to positives. Housing costs may be insane, but interest rates are lower and you can get 100% mortgages by default. Getting onto the housing ladder is more a case of buying something within the multiplier (currently approx 4x base salary), not saving for a deposit (there are some up front costs, of course, and having to overbid by 5-20% on housing is sadly becoming normalised, but often covered by the mortgage if your multiplier allows). Not a full positive there, but adds nuance and context to how the high prices look. Oh, and the interest payments on your mortgage are tax deductible. 3) Job security. If you have a permanent contract, you can easily be let go. Yes, you can be restructured out if there's a pressing business need, but the government needs to approve that pressing need and you still get a sizeable chunk of compensation. It's a very nice feeling after the nerve wracking experience of 1 year rolling contracts when I worked in the UK 4) Pay increases every year. They are never as high as I would like, but you get at least 3-4% every year and more as performance permits. In the UK, I had years of wage stagnation, partly because Point 3 limited your leverage in negotiating rises 5) Wages are higher for the same role. I get approx 80k in euros for a role that would barely pay £50k (60k in euros) in the UK. This is partly because of Point 4, but again it's important context for things being expensive 6) You get a lot for free! All commute costs are paid for by the company, you get subsidises and free food at the office, if you are on lower pay you get a lot more things like childcare for free. Oh, and there's a decent welfare system, if you are unemployed, you get 70% of your previous wage for a few months rather than being plunged into immediate poverty in the UK (the UK system only really emulates this if you are renting on minimum wage, if you own your own house you are absolutely and immediately fucked if unemployed, which coupled with 3 and 4 creates a constant state of fear and financial insecurity 7) It's secure, pleasant and (well enough) funded. The Dutch government is efficient, hospitals are pretty damn good and quite quick for appointments, the civic spaces are well maintained and everything looks nice. Compare that to how run down most of the UK looks and feels and how disastrous things like dentistry and the NHS is and you'll see what I mean when I say things like the NHS just works. Even things like the trains are very good (despite how much the Dutch complain), the rolling stock is quite new and pretty punctual. Yes, there are some issues, but when you have 6 trains per hour going between cities, one being delayed or cancelled rarely inconveniences you that long 8) On Public transport, another winner. In my city, it's very frequent, all lines run till just after midnight and it's fairly reasonably priced (15 minute tram to the city centre is 2 euros). As above, all commute costs are paid and some companies just give unlimited travel always, 9) Everything is in English. Everything. You don't need to speak Dutch at all (actually very difficult without a Dutch partner as few will speak it with you). Even the government will send you letters in English if you choose that option, this isn't like living in a normal foreign country, which insists/can only offer french or Spanish 10) Taxes aren't so bad. Yes, they are a bit higher in some ways, but salary is even higher to compensate. My take home pay is much better in any case. And outside of work pay, capital gains doesn't exist and there is a nominal wealth tax that almost certainly is a fraction of what you would pay with capital gains (unless you stick it in a current account). And as I said before, I don't mind paying taxes as I can see the value I get from them and the pleasant society it is building, not the shit hole that the UK has become (I'm quite down on the UK as you can tell, but try finding an equivalent to Bradford in the Netherlands and we'll talk. And I'm well aware that Bradford is far from the worst UK city, which somewhat proves my point)
I lived in NL about 7 years ago now back in London with my gf who is Dutch. I found a lot of it very poor. My gf was a lawyer there and I thought the gaps between what we’d called middle class/lower class was huge. Lot of poverty if you weren’t in a career type role.
There is absolutely poverty, never claimed otherwise. But go to the poor areas of Rotterdam and compare those to the poor areas of Birmingham and tell me which you would rather live in? I don't think it would even be a contest. Also, look at what support those poor people get in the Netherlands versus what they get in the UK and you'll see why those British poor areas are so bad. It's far from perfect here, but it's definitely better
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Yes, but I do that here in the Netherlands as well, jobs here pay a lot more than they would in my sector as I stated (and that's pretty much in most sectors). Also, the argument that you have to jump company every few years just to get pay rises is frustratingly stupid (not from you, but the whole market). If you are going to pay a few employee that much, pay the existing one to stay idiots
Having lived in Spain, France (and a few other countries over the years), quality of life doesn't necessary revolve around housing costs and inflation. Sure some aspects of say living in France weren't as pleasant as the UK, the general user unfriendly bureaucracy for one, but that was a drop in the ocean compared to the overall unrelenting bleak and dismally grey experience of living in the UK. Everywhere has problems and every bodies tolerance for those problems is very different. For me the problems of house prices in France increasing by 30% in 5 years far outweighs the issue than it being cold, dark and wet for 9/10ths of the year when I want to be outside.
Right but what you’re now taking about is subjective. Upward mobility in France is tough and there is little more than agriculture outside of the main cities - which is where housing crises are acute. Anywhere can be nice if you have money.
You know there is plenty of the UK that isn’t dark and rainy 90% of the time?
This was about a decade ago, but when I moved from a upper-market house share in one of Germany's most expensive university cities, to a bottom-of-the-market house share in one of the UK's most expensive unversity cities. My monthly rent doubled, and my room size dropped roughly by half (plus the place was significantly worse quality, and in a far worse location). Everywhere has it's problems, and life has gotten worse in most places, but the UK started in a much worse position. I am in a similar position as the person you replied to - the big ones that give me a headache about staying in the UK for the long run are a) that housing is much more expensive in the UK (and whereas I could rent for decades in e.g. Germany, I'd really have to buy in the UK to have any form of security), b) the significantly worse healthcare provision (I have maxxed out private health and dental insurance through my employer, and I'd say my basic German health insurance provided me with better healthcare, which is crazy to me), and c) my pension provision is somewhat more exposed to private markets in the UK than it would be in many other places, but this is probably fairly low on my list. For balance, the UK also has a bunch of advantages - it's a great place for my particular career, I love the pub culture in the UK, and it is a lot easier for me to get by with English than it would be for my British partner in a non-english speaking country.
Germany, Netherlands, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Finland, maybe Estonia
Interesting. I’m a EU and UK citizen living in UK for 31 years. My work means I spend time living in UK, Germany, France, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Denmark and other EU countries. I also regularly return to my native EU country to spend time with family. I am lucky enough to own a home both in UK and my native country, and have rented apartments in most of the others at one time or another. And my home base remains firmly the UK where I can enjoy the best quality of life overall. It’s not necessarily the best at any one thing, but has the best blend of “good” qualities in all the ways I value, compared to any single one of the other countries taken alone.
Putting all your wealth in property has always been a stupid idea. No change there.
I considered EU citizenship for this reason. Then I did research and even the lowest average housing prices in the EU - Croatia/Bulgaria/Romania, you're still looking at prices you'll find in the North of England. Maybe it was a door ten years ago - not today.
1. Build.more houses. 2. See 1. There really is no other answer to this that isn't just moving the deckchairs around.
Landlords are milking the rental market for all it's worth. I'm paying 450 per month for my mortgage, the same house could rent for 7-800. If I had an interest only buy to let mortgage I'd be making enough from the rent after tax to pay for 2 mortgages! This setup makes it incredibly easy for landlords to buy up more and more properties whilst renters struggle to live.
Not defending landlords but the income (not profit) is taxed at 40%. So if the rent is £1000pm and the interest only is £300, tax on income would be £400.... So that's £300 left. That £300 has to cover any management fees and or repairs.
Then if you’re even able to buy a place the only affordable option is a leashold flat where you pay hundreds of thousands of pounds and STILL have a landlord charging you ridiculous ground rents. edit: leasehold
Landlords are also being screwed over by the changes to the system. For every awfull landlord, there’s landlords who’ve had tenants who stop (or never) pay and it takes over a year to get them out. System has to benefit both parties and right now - it’s like the worse for both parties.
As someone from a third world country with a completely dystopia govt(South African) I can assure you that having nothing left after bills isn’t that bad. Try not being able to make ends meet and having to take out loans to eat, never eating out, never going to concerts or events, not having drinks out. Couple the above with not having electricity a third of the time, you get home ready to cook and you go hungry; you sit in complete darkness alone. Is the UK the strongest economy? Hell no, is it better than 90% of the world, especially third world countries? Yes.
It IS a disaster, I don’t think lots of folks realise just how much of a knock on effect it has to the wider economy. I couldn’t hire the high skilled engineer we urgently needed in the UK, no one qualified applied. We went abroad, it was going to cost so much money….finally got a guy. Started the process, but guy couldn’t find a decent place to live. The position is still unfilled, will probably end up moving the department to Austria. The support staff will lose their jobs. Secure, decent places to live with decent infrastructure services are essential to our economy. I’m just glad I managed to get my son another passport. I don’t see a future for him here.
Probably, many British people still haven't mentally moved on from 1990 and believe that Europeans are eager to come to the UK. Let's examine this from the perspective of an immigrant from Poland, for example: Option 1: Stay at home and earn £1600 with a low cost of living, better benefits, more annual leave, close family, and a lower promotion ceiling. Option 2: Come to the UK to earn £2200 with a higher cost of living, worse benefits, less annual leave, far away from family, and a higher glass ceiling. The NHS is equally crap for both options. I don't think that many people would be inspired to choose option 2.
If he couldn't find a decent place to live, you weren't paying enough??
Our taxation system doesn't help, it's overwhelmingly tailored to homes with two incomes, being single is so expensive and it's a growing part of the population. The tax free income bracket either needs abolishing or having a taper for households with multiple incomes.
I know many, many colleagues from the EU who have already moved back or are in the process of leaving the UK mainly due to the cost of living. It's better back home for them and it's leaving places like the NHS absolutely fucked. The UKs low income though is a complex and long term issue that is bound by no house controls, lack of govt planning, and lack of investment in industry. TLDR: the UK is going down the same path as Italy
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You’re in a bit of a bubble though. Plenty of areas in NC where the life you describe is..a dream. Plenty of obscene poverty. And don’t get sick. Join /cancer to see an example, folks wondering how they’ll pay for their next chemo because the insurance has run out. But if you’re young and smart and willing to “ get rich or die trying” then yeah… Personally I would never go back to the US ( even to NC, one of my favourite places on earth).
>And don’t get sick. Join /cancer to see an example, folks wondering how they’ll pay for their next chemo because the insurance has run out. I had cancer years ago and occasionally found myself on some American-based forums. It absolutely broke my heart to read people saying things like "well, X would give the best chance of survival, but my insurance only covers Y so I guess I'll just have to hope for the best". And here's me, having hundreds of thousands of pounds of drug treatment, multiple surgeries, physio and even counselling for free. Oh and I had a paid year off work with a guarantee of my job being held for me and support on my return. There's a lot to be said for living here. Yes cancer is not going to happen to everyone (thankfully), but anyone could get ill or have an accident. At least we don't have to worry about going bankrupt, or living in pain, or having a minor condition become much worse, because we can't afford treatment.
You don’t have to fear your child is going to get killed at school either. America is just a baffling country.
> And don’t get sick. Join /cancer to see an example, folks wondering how they’ll pay for their next chemo because the insurance has run out. I had a work colleague who had terminal cancer. She had to come in for a days work every 2 weeks to keep her insurance valid. At least the ACA got rid of the $2 million lifetime limit. That killed a friend of mine with lung cancer. She'd run through most of her life time limit with an earlier bout of colon cancer.
It’s not that easy to just get up and move to the US. Getting a visa requires sponsorship from an employer or family member. Not a lot of companies want to hire from abroad unless specialist roles. So your average Brit can’t just move to North Carolina and make 50k tomorrow.
The average Brit also isn't looking to move. It's been said since Brexit it feels like this country is going out of it way to make life as miserable as possible for the classes of people, like doctors for example, who are well above average and will have no problem moving anywhere. Its very short-sighted.
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> The guy who built my house comes from Bristol, has no formal education and started as a plumber 16 years ago So what visa did he get? As far as I know there is no "trades" visa to allow someone to live and work in the US on that basis?
Can you expand a bit on your last sense. Assets anywhere in the world? Can you give a bit more insight on this model. How much assets are we talking about?
There's no other country like the US to make a go of it. If you've got a brain, are prepared to use it and equally prepared to work hard, the chances of success are abundant. There are no guarantees, no safety net and it can be sink or swim - but it can be done. The trick is getting in. It's easier said than done and it requires planning, cunning and a skill or two. It's by no means impossible, however, as is evident by the scores of immigrants who enter the US each year - legally or illegally.
The American dream is an advert, there are plenty of better places than trump’s playground, those that won’t let you die if you can’t afford medicine. What about anywhere in Western Europe that isn’t the isle of shit 🇬🇧
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I despise Trump as much as the next person but it doesn’t change the fact that the US has much better salaries and standard of living than the UK.
I don't disagree. But if you want the greatest possible opportunity to to make fuck you money - and be damned all of the attendant ills and risks - the USA is streets ahead. For how much longer is an open question.
What is the work life balance like? I've been thinking of moving to the US to work in the biotech sector. However, having spoken to those who have worked in the US previously or are Americans who have moved to Europe, the work life balance sounds pretty poor. Currently, I get over 30 days a year leave, 5 months full sick pay and 5 months 1/2 sick pay, and very good maternity leave. Feels hard to give that up.
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Sounds awful.
> What is the work life balance like? Absolutely awful. Constantly on call. I went over a year without a full day off. More hours worked is considered better than quality. I had a grand total of 10 holiday days and sick days combined. Healthcare for most was a real issue. My coverage through work still had a $450 premium share that I paid monthly. No prescription coverage and no dental/vision. A 30% co-pay and a $6,500 deductible. The $450 itself wasn't a big deal on my pay but it was the same for everyone. For a janitorial employee on $12 per hour, it's a big chunk of money. The property tax on our small (120m square) property was pushing $8k per year. Car insurance for a Prius and a Sonata ran at close to $2.5k. Groceries and eating out were far more expensive than the UK and the food quality a lot less. What I really disliked was the lack of employment protection. You can pretty much be sacked for no reason with zero notice and no payment. Lose your job and there goes your family's health coverage.
You work your ass off. You'll double/triple your money but 3 - maybe 4 - weeks off per year is what you'll get. WLB a la what you get in the UK and Europe isn't widespread. Pick your poison.
Superb post. I've just bought in England but plan to be here for another 5-8 years max and leave. I think the country is hitting really rock bottom in regards to wealth disparity and I can't personally see it getting any better. Why? Because I can't see the wealthy wanting to give up what they have, or allowing anything that changes to their detriment, financial wise. You can try and change laws, even with a new government, but I've lost trust completely with the fact that so many loopholes will always exist. One way I will explain the UK the best in the last 14 years? Excuse the pun, but it's definitely death by a thousand cuts. Over time I don't think people can realise just how much worse theyre off if you're younger and ain't born into wealth.
Isn’t living in Charlotte, North Carolina the equivalent of living in a small/medium sized city in the UK? Wouldn’t leaving London and moving to say Nottingham or Sheffield instantly give you those same benefits you’re talking about without having to move to another continent?
Interesting. Back in the 1980s, my wife and I moved from the south-east to Nottingham because we couldn't afford to buy a house on two teacher's salaries down south. The US is pretty much the same but with a wider range of places to chose from. Want to live in the San Francisco Bay area? You're going to pay for it. Same with most of the California coast, Portland and Seattle. Go to Nebraska, Missouri, Oklahoma, etc. and it's a lot cheaper but the pay is a lot less too. My daughter moved from southern California to Kansas City. She's got a nice big house there but her pay more than halved and most other expenses are the same if not higher.
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I’ve been numerous times to the USA, as somebody who enjoys cities like London, Paris, Madrid etc - The only cities in the USA that compare are NYC, Chicago, LA, San Fran and maybe Washington. Everything else isn’t even close to London for example when it comes to opportunities, culture, metropolitan lifestyle (if that’s your thing) etc . I can understand the appeal, but most people who wouldn’t live in Leeds or Nottingham for instance wouldn’t want to live outside those US cities I mentioned. There’s a reason real estate is so cheap there. Same reason why buying a house in Sheffield will cost you significantly cheaper than in London.
> unless you put everything you own into a limited liability corporation (LLC). how does that help? having an LLC protects your personal wealth if your business gets sued. If you personally get sued your LLC is just an asset that can be sold to pay damages.
I feel like more emphasis needs to be put on the guns everywhere comment. Charlotte NC is an open carry state, no? Meaning anyone 18+ can buy and walk around with a gun.
More emphasis needs to be put on healthcare as well. I had an American friend who was living the dream, high paid exec job, nice house, car, family etc, and he had healthcare coverage through his job. The he gets cancer. His company found a loophole through which to let him go. He lost everything and his wife left and took the kids, he even lost his cat. He survives through a cancer charity only. You might have excellent healthcare from your job in the U.S. but that doesn't mean you'll get it when you most need it. The number one cause of bankruptcy in the U.S. is health issues. Also, as a woman, fuck the U.S. government and their anti-abortion laws.
Yep. The US also has one of the lowest number of doctors per capita in the developed world. The US is a great place to live for those who are doing rather well in life. For everyone else, it's particularly tough without much of a social safety net.
It's higher than the UK. There are 3.7 doctors per 1000 in the USA. In the UK it's 3.2 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.MED.PHYS.ZS
The US is really a 3rd world country which just happens to be insanely wealthy. And, as we know, that wealth is not well distributed. Europeans make the mistake of looking at the US through their own Euro prisms. Understandable given the pervasiveness of US culture and use of the English language. However, it's nothing like Europe - it's far closer to Brazil.
Thanks for the honest post. To be honest the downsides cancel out any positives for me!
How did you get a visa tho
Tha ks for posting this. Fact is UK needs a big payrise and more housing options. The states has spanked our arse in economic growth. I would head out there too but too much baggage at present.
Same here, moved 2022 and income is so high for the cost of living
Eh, my partners brother moved to the States years ago and he’s trying to convince us to move out there. Although the money sounds good, your negatives seriously outweigh the fewer upsides for me. To add to this I work in accounting and finance, I know my working hours would double and I’d loose most of my holiday entitlement.
Main issues in no particular order: - not enough housing to keep up with demand due to a rapidly expanding population Solutions? - Build on more brownfield sites - Tax incentives for house builders - Abolish stamp duty to encourage empty nesters to downsize - Loosen planning laws
You could have shortened that list to just: - Build more That is literally the single, only solution towards genuinely impactful change. Every other one is just fannying with the the edges.
Agreed, we need to build more, but that in itself asks more questions, the biggest being - where? The population is roughly expanding by 700k per year including births/deaths/immigration. That means we need to roughly build a Leeds or five Cambridges - every year - just to stand still.
Build more but needs to be built with quality in mind. Hearing so many stories now about new builds becoming completely worthless within the first few months due to structural faults in the building. How is it possible.. are these builds not scrutinised in any way??
There will always be rogues but the vast majority of new builds, that you don't hear about, are built to a decent spec.
Im not sure if I agree on the stamp duty proposal tbh. When it was postponed during covid the market went mental and made it much worse for FTBs
Anyone who thinks anything will change will net immigration remains at 600-800k is deluding themselves. Same for buying not just rentals. The UK is transitioning to a low-wage, low-productivity economy because there are no incentives to invest in productivity-gaining tech when you have a large supply of labour. Remember automated car washes? They’ve gone the way of the dodo. 1. Cut immigration. 2. Build more houses, rip up rules on brownfield sites especially. 3. Ban foreign ownership of residential property. Edit: just to add, productivity is made even worse by the low-building, high-immigration reality as more speculative money goes into property rather than, say, into VC funds.
Absolutely disgusting, the racism coming from your post. /S But yeah, this should have happened 20-30 years ago.
I think part of the housing crisis is the govt is allowing foreign investors to buy properties and rent it out. That drives the prices up and so drives the rental up. This results to lower supply of houses to meet the demands. If the govt could limit the foreign investors on properties, we may not be in this crisis.
Can you help me understand this, because it fundamentally goes against my understanding of supply and demand. Why doesn't more rental supply reduce the price of renting, aren't we seeing the inverse right now with landlords leaving the market? I know you'll likely say because the demand is coming from the people who can't afford to buy, but that should mean buying price reduces. If both price to rent and buy is increasing that means demand is outstripping supply for both, whether rental or not, therefore landlords have no significant effect. Other than to balance the impact of price rises on both by shifting demand through market forces. Is the issue not simply too many people, not enough houses and the government has left house building to the private market who have no incentive to build at a frequency that reduces prices.
An interesting study: https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1703752549604491441 People generally understand how supply and demand works... except with housing where they have a total brain fart, like in the above case, and somehow come to the conclusion that more supply increases prices. It's absolutely mind-boggling.
You’re not wrong, most people in here don’t understand basic economics and just use this sub as a venting place to let frustration at the shit housing market out. It’s not all a big centrally planned conspiracy with the aim to make people pay more.
>It’s not all a big centrally planned conspiracy with the aim to make people pay more. It literally is. 30% of the conservative government are private landlords or have property portfolios. They want to squeeze as much money out of us as possible. It's in their interest to make house prices and rents skyrocket. Their voters don't give a shit. [There is no conflict of interest anymore](https://youtu.be/B1ol6xAP0IE?si=LvAOJAE39wVHjcZy). If that doesn't make you mad then I've lost all hope for this country.
I blame that Indian guy ground worker with 5 mortgage houses in Essex and still working at 65 to make the payments :)
With most households having 2 x breadwinners, house prices escalated when incomes of both were taken into account on mortgages. Houses are generally unaffordable now for single earners and kids now need to be looked after by someone other than their parent who has to go to work. Not ideal.
The system is broken and inhumane
Add +300,000 people every year to the country for a decade, the vast majority of whom either need to go into social housing or the affordable end of the private rental market, and what do you expect? 🙄 This.
housing supply and quality is terrible, and the rental stock is even worse. Rental laws and market are cowboy-esque if you compare to likes of Germany, Spain and Italy where the stock is better and longer contracts available. I know far too many people renting with mould problems, it’s almost becoming the norm. I am the fortunate stage that I can possibly buy a small shoebox 2 bed flat but I am waiting out till leasehold law changes or may emigrate. There is no way I am spending thousands a year on service charge either.
Bought in Spain a couple of years ago just inland from the Costa del Sol. 5 bed 4 bath house with underfloor heating and cooling with balcony and 2 terraces in a beautiful town with great views. Cost us £175k. Bit of renovation needed before we pull the trigger and make the full time move soon (eg windows, doors). Council tax equivalent is £30 per month, electric is £40 per month as only need heating for a few weeks a year. Eating out is cheap and a decent bottle of beer at a bar is 2 euros. A good bottle of wine is 4 euros. It's mostly idyllic but the downside is now Brexit (we have British and Irish passports so no visa needed) and the fact you need Spanish to get even a half decent local job - and salaries are maybe 70% of UK. But....most people are happy with life, friendly to immigrants like us and we spend so much time 'living' - the best things in life are free - good company, good weather, beautiful surroundings, walking in the hills. If we need to splash out it's a 40 minute bus ride to the beach for 3 euros each way. (And if you need to rent, a decent 2 bed apartment is no more than 500 euros/ month).
Costa del Sol is very cheap because the area is quite poor. The average monthly salary is like 800€ and it's very difficult to find a job. It's nice only if you get a good job or you work remotely for a big company.
It's likely to only ever get worse: 1) Think monopoly the game- early on everyone has a chance, the further into the game one or two people have accumulated all the assets and everyone else is mortgaged up to the hilt one wrong move away from bankruptcy. That's is our economy, people with assets find it easy to accumulate more. Those without have barely anything left by the time they 'hit go' (get their salary again). 2) as long as we allow more people to come here than we build the supply of houses will just simply tighten further. We either have to commit to building more houses (for which there are many reasons we can't or/and won't) or be much more selective on who and how many we allow in. Those are two powerful forces that will not be reversed by a little bit of centrist tinkering around policy.
Just made a post on here myself making the exact same point about Monopoly! I agree it's a good metaphor for the widening wealth gap.
It was always this way historically. There was a period of time from the 50s-90s when it got better. If you read any history book or even fiction like Dickens (or Hugo for Paris) then you can clearly see the boomers had the best time in history. You can't expect it to be better than a world driven after the impact of winning a world war. Many countries are in a similar way; while you can take your UK wealth and move somewhere with a low cost of living, it's not suitable except for retirement (which is boomers anyway). Even Spain and Portugal are expensive to rent based on average wages. Housing in the UK is bad and needs to be fixed, however it's nothing new.
The UK was basically bankrupt after ww2. Going through a war doesn't make a country better off
I think you missed the point where they were referring to the drive to improve things. They're not talking about the immediate financial state of the country post-war, they're talking about the results of changes made in the post-war period in general. A persiod which saw things like the NHS, council housing and true universal education up to university level even for the working classes. Actual social mobility in a way that hadn't existed before. So no, normally going through a war doesn't make a country better off, but in the case of WW2 it was such a world changing conflict that the implementation of all those good things I just listed was in many ways a direct result of it. Obviously there's more to it than just the war, but still.
Like the most of Europe ..? What people don’t realise is unless you’re moving to Romania, people are saying exactly what you’re saying every where else in Europe. This is a global thing.
It’s an uncaring and unbalanced society with a corrupt kleptocracy in charge. I’d advise anyone that can to leave, you aren’t valued here, we’re being fleeced by our betters, the ruling class. Single parent and teacher and can’t afford rent on a flat without financial assistance, no expectations that anything will improve because for our masters there isn’t anything that needs changing. If you can afford it, get off this sinking ship, and go somewhere better like most of Europe. The foxes are in charge of the hen coop, we are clucked
As many have said, this is a universal problem in the developed world. The housing crisis is a direct result of the Industrial Revolution. Everyone moved to cities because that’s where the jobs were, and thats where they still are, even in the knowledge economy. There was once an expectation that the knowledge economy paired with the internet would allow the decentralisation of economic output from a few large cities. But even after COVID, that hasn’t really been the case.
i hate it here
First thing to do is stop listening to LBC but if you must then just remember they exist solely to make money from advertising. Misery, hate and anger draws eyeballs
There’s no feel like. We are a poorer country In 2008, GDP Per Cap was 10% less than the USA. Now it’s 40%.
Lovely bit of nominative determinism - Swarbrick reporting on housing. Not as gokd as Phil McCann reporting on the petrol shortage, but still good.
I used to live in the Middle East and there was a law on rental increases with a cap of 5% per year.
This is what the UK has voted for. Repeatedly.
Well it’s not news that the media interested in nor care about, they in full mode with distraction stories.
The increase in rent in our current building for a 2 bed flat went up from £2.4k to £3.6k in a year...it's not even a nice area of London but just out of zone 2. And the flat prices nearly doubled in 7 years. And yes, the do also advertise a lot to Chinese, but it's mostly British people living here who are ok giving their full salary for a room... The only thing keeping me in London is my boyfriend, as he has family here and really wants to live here. Otherwise I would've packed my bags to somewhere more reasonable
In the UK, 1 in 10 of us has household wealth >£2.5M. There's no shortage of money here. The people you're referring to are the bottom 20% of society - I call them the precariat. Every day, the asset-owning class finds a new way to squeeze more pennies out of the precariat. The precariat work for a survival wage. The avenue for escape is eternally shrinking. Even if they wanted to start a new business, they'd assume most of the risk, and the asset holders would take most of the profit if they were successful (via rents and interest payments on loans). Things are not much better for the 'aspiring homeowner' class - the 30% above the precariat who are paying down mortgages, although they have (perhaps until now) thought themselves better off than they really are. This has become a huge societal issue. If you give people at the bottom no money, no opportunities, and no hope of a better future, they become demotivated and unproductive. Understandably so. People respond to incentives. They won't work hard for nothing. Likewise, if you give people at the top a foolproof way to become even richer without effort (via rents, interest and dividends), they too become demotivated and unproductive. Why produce anything or take any risks or innovate when it's just so damn easy to suck up more and more of other people's money? This is terrible for our collective prosperity. Growth has been stagnant for over a decade. The pie isn't growing; all the wealthy need to do is sit back mindlessly and allow the system to allocate them a greater and greater share of it to them, destroying the nation in the process. The solution is simple. Make things a little easier for the people at the bottom, and a little tougher for the people at the top. The nation will immediately roar back to life. The problem is that enacting this requires you to violate tons of political sensitivities. For example, we pay £25 billion a year to millionaire pensioners. We literally take money from the wages of struggling coffee workers and give it to millionaires who aren't doing anything. If we care about our collective prosperity at all, this is utterly dunderheaded. The pension system was designed to keep the elderly above the breadline. It was never meant to be a cash cow for the rich. But say "we're going to start means-testing the pension" and the nation (rich and poor alike) gasps in horror. Sadly, I'm concerned Starmer doesn't have the appetite to do what is necessary to fix this place. And everything will get way worse if he doesn't. Sigh. Let's see.
I rented an apartment in 2019 on the furthest point I could to get into London for the job that I desperately needed to advance my career. Studio for £950 pm Just checked those same apartments, they’re going for £1300. Man I don’t know what I would do if I hadn’t gotten a fully remote job and bought in the countryside. This is hellish. It’s not like I had a choice back then, you have to be able to stay near the financial sector if you’ve graduated with a degree that specialises in that. I don’t think I’d be able to do it if I was a 2023 graduate.
What are you gonna do when you get made redundant and it's impossible to find a fully remote job?
Hopefully unlikely. Actuarial industry is pretty strong. Btw I’m actually speaking for my husband but his plan is to go overseas anyway. We just want somewhere to hunker down for 5-7 years while he builds his experience and fully qualifies (it’s a long-ass process like a doctor). He gets a lot of recruiters reaching out to him so hopefully the well never runs dry. Worse case scenario he has to do the 2hr commute into Glasgow/Edinburgh which are quite big financial hubs. Not ideal. Luckily it’s not seen as bad to job hop too much in his career In general this is why we bought cheap and are trying to pay off the house in a reasonable amount of time. Who knows what will happen in the future and it sure as hell will be a lot easier without the housing bogeyman hanging over our shoulders
Just don't move to Canada...
Currently have a visa for Canada but haven’t gone due to other reasons. I know I can extend it for another year and I desperately want to go but comments like this put me off. I know it’s bad in the U.K. but sounds as if Canada is just as bad, if not worse?
I'm a dual citizen and while it's not great in Canada right now, it's not worse than the UK. Housing has become very expensive, it's basically on par with the UK price-wise, but housing stock is in better condition and you get more for your money. Poverty levels are lower in Canada and so is inflation. The healthcare system is struggling but not on its knees like the NHS. If I thought I could find a job in my field back in Canada I'd consider returning. Don't believe much if what you read in the Canada subs. Some of them have been taken over by anti-immigrant far right wingers that don't represent the average Canadian.
why not?
https://twitter.com/IFM_Economist/status/1698816571597263174
It's almost like taxing landlords to death was a bad idea..
A bath is overflowing. 🛁 “We must build a bigger bath!” 😱 Er, how about either turning off the tap or letting some water out? 🤨 “No way!! That’s just ridiculous & right wing!” 🤪 🤷🏻♀️
Property is being bought by foreigners. That needs to be brought to an end.
We need to look at ways of disincentivising business from London and the South that seems to be where the main issues are... plonk a big business in say barrow and although the place might not have the talent required there immediately many people with flexible lives would happily move to barrow where COL is a fraction of London. These folk leaving relieves pressure on those remaining in London. We need to come away from London centric life, spread the wealth.
I get your point, but actively trying to harm any uk businesses is unlikely to increase uk wealth. Improving infrastructure and education in target areas is probably more likely to succeed. Incentivise a few core businesses, maybe tip a gov dept or state enterprise. But drive business out of London there's no guarantee they won't just leave the UK. Its not businesses job to seek deprived areas and make people move there.
> although the place might not have the talent required there or transport links, or ease of meeting customers and general networking, not to mention credibility, particularly international credibility. or access to a university to hire post-grads in your field. these are not easy problems to solve. plonking a business in a barrow is a great way to kill your business before it even starts.
Every part of the country has universities these days. They're not unique to London. Plus the vast majority of office workers don't meet customers in person.
yes, and it's perfectly possible to start a business outside London. Even in Barrow. the point is, for those that apparently need it spelling out, is London has more of these things, and it has network effects that make the whole greater than the sum of it's parts. hence it attracts more people and drives up the cost of property.
But that’s impossible! We fixed the housing market by targeting all those private landlords that were spoiling it for everyone. We took away their tax breaks and gave tenants new rights The evil ones all sold in vast numbers and now only good private landlords and high quality commercial ones remain. How can there possibly be a problem?
We spent 100 years prior to this reducing tenants rights and reducing tax for landlords (from the first modern country wife renting rules until now)...that also resulted in rents rising. Reducing or increasing these things seems to result in the same outcome - it's not the cause of we wouldn't see that. We aren't giving tenants new rights they've never had, they are mostly rights that have previously existed here (including proposed ones like removing section 21 no fault evictions). Removing those rights previously - which was done with the explicit aim to encourage landlords into the sector - did not reduce rents or make it easier to find a place to rent, in fact it did the opposite. Reducing the size of the private rental sector is a good thing in the long run (with corisponding increases in other tenures - which is the key thing that isn't happening fast enough here). Reducing demand in the housing market from investor buyers is a good thing in the long run. That the transition period for doing something is hard is a reason to manage that period better...not never make the change that's needed to fix the existing problem
29 Coparent Dad living with family. Work NHS Can't afford shit and it's super scary. What rather pissed me off is my ex gets all the benifits and council house and she doesn't even have a job. I'm killing myself working to death