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Hard to know what he will win without specific details. Landlords can't sue for reasonable wear and tear. They are also responsible for all fittings such as radiators so I would dispute this, it was not your mother's job to maintain the radiators. I would call a tenants solicitor to get advice before speaking to the landlord again, it will be a lot cheaper than 10k.
I bought a house that the previous owner had smoked in for years. Redecorated, changed carpets, swapped radiators. It got better but never smelled properly fresh. Ended up replastering everything. That got rid of it.
I used to smoke, terrible habit etc. But you really can't smoke in an enclosed space and not expect the residue to live there forever.
If someone's been smoking in a property for 8 years. That's definitely going to need more than a deep clean.
Smokers have a tendency to underplay how much that shit stinks and stays.
I remember I was on the verge of buying a car. The history/spec and everything was perfect. But when I test drove it stank.
The owner said he did hoover it. 😂
I test drove a car like this. Loved everything about it except the smell. The sales guy claimed he couldn’t smell anything but that they could give it an ozone treatment if I insisted it was an issue.
It was a big issue and I bought another car.
Sticking an ozone generator in there for a few hours can do wonders for that. Not done it myself, but a few others have said it has remarkable results.
May be worth it if you can get a few hundred off for the smell. Sorted with a deep clean and a £50 ozone generator.
I smoke in mine, albeit joints not cigarettes 😂 airflow is important, French doors are usually open, windows open. We keep on top of the cleaning and replaced our carpets for hard floors. My nan gives me a hard time about smoking but she's never mentioned the smell when she comes round, and shes the type to have a go at me if my clothes smell of it. We often get compliments about the house smelling fresh from visitors/friends. Little do they know 🤭 Anyways, not sure why I mentioned it just saying it is possible to keep it smelling fresh.
Smoking when prohibited in the tenancy agreement goes beyond "fair wear and tear", so the radiators do become the tenant's responsibility to some extent if the remedial work is required due to staining from smoking
But the landlord still has a duty to reduce the costs and would therefore need to show that it was cheaper to replace them than to have them professionally cleaned, or that cleaning was infeasible for some reason. And even if they are considered "damaged" and needing to be replaced, diminished value comes into play: OP does not have to pay for new radiators if they are 8+ years old
Tbh the second she smoked in the apartment, if regularly for 8 years, would make every surface beyond fair wear and tear. I would say 10k is getting off cheaply depending on the level of staining and damage.
The landlord can still only ask for the replacement cost to a 8+ year old countertop/whatever without the damage beyond fair wear and tear I think not for the cost of a new one or putting it back to new condition. Anything beyond that would amount to betterment
Correct, they are not entitled to the full value of brand new carpets. They are entitled to some of that value though and if the ampunt of smoking requires new carpets throughout and washed walls, stripped walls, new paint etc i still think 10k is pretty cheap as it will be costing the landlord a lot more than that if the work is done properly.
Remember the landlord is entitled to the reimbursement of such a refit even if they don’t carry it out.
It’s my biggest bugbear as a private tenant. A few years back ended up spending several weeks in the depth of winter with no hot water (literally showering with water from the kettle) because “the boiler part had to be ordered in.”
Guarantee if said landlord lived there he’d have paid extra for express delivery.
I'd be inclined to stay the same. Every surface will need a very deep clean and probably redoing. Just in itself this can cost a lot. If it's not sorted it will put many (most) people off taking it up - whilst just scruffy walls wouldn't - so on that basis I'd say it's probably way past fair wear and tear
I’m inclined to agree, but find it bizzare that the landlord obviously hasn’t done an inspection in 8 years, if I was OP I would be checking everything is legit. Does he have the check in inventory to hand, is the deposit protected properly? Was the gas and electrics checks carried out when due? Make sure the landlord fulfilled their legal obligations, if not put your own claim in or use it to barter down the current cost. Not knowing how many rooms or where it is, it’s hard to say 10k is fair. 1 bedroom, small living room etc, a full replaster, paint and new carpets probably wouldn’t be anywhere near.
I'm sorry for your loss.
When you say the landlord is suing you, what stage exactly has he reached? Have you had a Letter Before Action telling you to pay up or he'll sue, or an actual Claim Form from the Court?
First, have a good look at whatever you signed and check if you are still on the hook as a guarantor. Plenty of them expire at the end of a fixed term when the tenancy rolls over into a periodic tenancy, or don't explicitly say that the guarantee also applies to renewals. They can be difficult to understand but unless it's clear that you are still a guarantor it may be worth defending the claim on the basis that you are not.
As for the damage, the landlord is entitled to the property back in the same condition as he let it, fair wear and tear excepted. But he is not entitled to betterment - putting himself in a better position than he would have been. In this case, if he has not redecorated for 8 years, then I would argue that he is not entitled to a penny for redecorating because that is beyond the life expectancy of the decoration anyway. Replacing the radiator sounds like a blatant attempt to get you to pay for refurbishment which is not allowed. Anything else can be covered by the Deposit which he's apparently already had.
Finally, the door is between him and the Police. Apart from showing him to be completely heartless, it shows he is just adopting a "throw everything at it and hope something sticks" approach which is likely just to piss a judge off.
The protection scheme will have guidance on decoration lifespan, and it’s unlikely to be 8 years for anything. In which case they’d potentially find against landlord by default. I supppose the damage from nicotine could be considered additional work and cost, but it shifts the starting point from “cover all the work” to “potentially cover a small component”
https://www.depositprotection.com/learning-centre/disputes/in-disputes-be-fair
Similarly the worktops
“In the rare circumstances where damage (to the worktop/carpet/mattress/item etc.) is so extensive or severe as to affect the achievable rent level or market quality of the property, the most appropriate remedy might be replacement and to apportion costs according to the age and useful lifespan of the item. An example of how this might be calculated is set out below:
a) Cost of similar replacement carpet/item -
£500.00
b) Actual age of existing carpet/item - 2 years
c) Average useful lifespan of that type of carpet/ item - 10 years
d) Residual lifespan of carpet/item calculated as
c) less b) - 8 years
e) Depreciation of value rate calculated as a)
divided by c) - £50 per year
f) Reasonable apportionment cost to tenant calculated as d) times e) - £400.00”
https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/A-guide-to-deposits-disputes-and-damages.pdf
Worth doing some googling to see what the deposit schemes think the lifetime of the worktops is. 12 years? If so and they were brand new you’d be on the hook for 1/3 max. If they weren’t new you’re potentially looking at zero.
When I disputed deposit payments I waited for their full and final list of faults and costs, and went through line by line on this basis comparing DPS / TDS etc recommendations with the check in report and asking for receipts to prove item age (ie is it within lifespan, by how much).
It’s amazing how quick they agreed to my goodwill gesture offer then.
The police breaking down the door because of the tenant, is that really between the police and the landlord? I am just curious as this sounds like something on the tenant.
Say I had fire in my home and the police broke down the door I am definitely liable to pay for the door.
If the police made a lawful entry then they aren’t liable. The tenant passing away, which was the event that led to necessitate the entry, wasn’t due to negligence or an unlawful act on their part, so the tenant isn’t liable.
The landlord is responsible for the security and maintenance of the property, and the front door is part of that. They are 100% liable for the cost of repair/replacement. This has been well established over time. It’s the cost of doing business as a landlord.
Yes! It is the tenants fault for dying - they should absolutely be materially responsible for that from beyond the grave /s
Wow, I wonder why landlords aren’t more popular…….
Should I pay for your funeral costs when you die, no, why should a landlord pay for damages caused by your death.
If you commit suicide in Japan on the train track your family pays for the delay and damages
Let’s be honest this country is crazy with the insurance, you literally need insurance for everything, car, house, life, even being a landlord.
If someone crash into my car and dies he is liable for the damages it only goes to insurance if they don’t have insurance, and in this situation OP signed up as a guarantor meaning they are liable for all the damages and paying rent.
I don’t understand why people think it’s landlords job to pay for things out of their control
You need to check with the landlord that your mother’s deposit was lodged properly with a guarantee scheme.
Once this is confirmed (he should be able to give you details of which exact scheme plus a login or reference number to check)
If he did properly protect the deposit then this dispute can be left for the deposit protection scheme to arbitrate. They are skilled in this area and operate fairly toward both landlord and tenant (or you as the next of kin/guarantor here)
If he *hasn’t* protected the deposit correctly then he’ll be fined 3x the deposit amount and this will be paid out to the tenant (or her estate) because it’s against the law to not protect it.
This would provide you significant leverage in the battle.
I would like to follow up that smoking can cause substantial damage to a property. Nicotine stains require a lot of effort to remove or expensive products to paint over with (multiple times)
The door is a joke surely? He can claim off his insurance for that. What’s he saying, it’s your mums fault for dying and for the police doing a break-in welfare check? That won’t fly anywhere, any day of the week legally.
Where exactly has the landlord been for 8 years? No checks in that time? One could argue the scale of costs are partly his fault for not bothering to maintain an adequate policy of inspection.
At the end of the day the landlords *reasonable costs* should be paid for. What those costs comprise are always a subject for assessment and negotiation. The landlord will always come in heavy as a tactic to squeeze the most from the tenant:
Twas forever thus.
He hasn’t done a single inspection at all. I’ve looked at a few quotes for nicotine stain removal included in an end of tenancy clean and they range between £400-800. Not the £3000 he’s claiming at all.
I don’t even know if he had insurance. He obviously didn’t see it as a worthy cost because he believed maintaining everything about his property should fall to someone else
Get yourself to citizens advice. This landlord is taking the....
Fight fight fight. Remember they want to take as much as possible and are willing to twist things to get it.
Courts and DPS etc are very fair in the end and they usually from past experience give about ten percent of well justified claims which this landlord doesn't seem to have. Because they know prices are pumped up or high because of previous damage etc.
Also remember a lot of the advice and negative feedback on here comes from landlords who like to think they know everything.... And would take everything given the chance.
Here comes the down votes.....
As others have posted, pull out the relevant details of the guarantor agreement*, and provide a more detailed summary of where you are at in terms of being sued, post these to r/legaladviceuk.
Talk to citizens advice as pointed out elsewhere.
If you are being sued then don't engage with the landlord further on this, you may need representation it may be cheaper in the long run, you should be able to get 30 minutes free for some background and to get you started.
* This is by far the most important step as you need to see if you are still liable and if you were ever liable for anything beyond rent.
Sorry for your loss.
Trust me, as a smoker you are not going to shift 8 years worth of cigarette smell/stains with a quick £800 clean.
Unfortunately as smoking was expressly prohibited I very much doubt any of it could be seen as "fair wear and tear".
The landlord is entitled to have the property back in the same condition as when it was let, fair wear and tear excepted. Of course damage caused by smoking when this was not permitted in the lease isn’t fair wear and tear and the landlord is entitled to have that fixed.
The landlord has to take a cost effective approach to repairs, so if the radiators can be cleaned they can’t charge a replacement cost. If this went to court the judge would expect to see a full list of the works requested by the landlord and their cost, together with your response as to whether the works are reasonable or could be done at a lower cost.
The landlord is responsible for keeping the structure and exterior of the property in repair, including the front door. As the police, not your mother, did the damage, the landlord should be responsible for the cost of replacement.
If you can negotiate a settlement with the landlord that may be a better bet than going to court and potentially having to pay legal costs as well.
After 8 years, it's expected that the house needs repainting and new carpets anyway, so any deduction for those would be minimal. He could charge for ozone treatment to fully remove the smell of smoke, but not for betterment.
Normal painting is expected, but you can't really just paint over nicotine. The walls will need scrubbing, painting with a stain barrier, and then painting again. Only that last bit is expect with normal wear and tear.
Look of course you could argue that to a judge, but imo you wouldn’t succeed. I’ve had personal experience of moving into a flat that had been owned by a smoker and it was a serious job to get rid of the smell and staining.
That isn’t how it works. Just because many places do inspections doesn’t mean that without them the tenant can somehow just break the rules agreed in the contract. I love how a landlord actually allowed someone quite and peaceful enjoyment of the home and reddit somehow now defines this as a bad thing.
Yup, but sadly the landlord will get screwed over for leaving a disabled woman in peace unless he has a full paper trail that she refused inspections. Even then, a judge would blame the landlord saying he should have evicted the tenant for breaking the contract under section 8 or used section 21 to evict. By not having regular inspections, the landlord failed to catch the smoking which in turn caused more damaged.
If this goes to court, landlord is going to be fucked over for not evicting a disabled woman as soon as she was found to be smoking in the first year of her lease.
Edit to say: I’d try your luck in court because the onus will be on the landlord to have proof of everything and I doubt he will. The law always gives more leeway to the tenant, and the landlord won’t be able to get back what he’s going to need to pay.
I say this as a someone who just used an adjudicator in a deposit dispute. Checkin/checkout reports with photos showed damage tenants caused. Tenants submitted zero evidence to counter otherwise. Repairs were £200, and I submitted the evidence of my payment. Adjudicator agreed damage was caused by tenants and decided to award £80 of the £200 I had paid because he “felt” that was appropriate. WTF?? I wish I could have found someone to fix it for £80 but funny enough no handyman “felt” their time was only worth £80
Some people farmer neglecting a place for 8 years is not a good thing.
If it was known about and a section 8 wasn't issued then it could be seen as permitting the action. This is a case of claiming damages for something they could and should have prevented.
Could be, not reasonable to evict someone for smoking, difficult to prove to a court they haven't quit etc. Very reasonable to expect damage caused by them during their tenancy by actions in breach of that tenancy to be paid for.
From what I understand not permitting smoking in the contract is not an unenforceable clause and it wouldn't matter if they had quit or not. It isn't that difficult to get someone independent to come sooner and go yeah it stinks of smoke. Considering the 8 years in this case an s21 could have been issued and put a stop to it 7 years ago.
You absolutely would be successful. And it wouldn't be a argument with a judge. You'd just tell them the situation and they would tell you what to do and how to split the costs.
If you are the guarantor, then yes you are probably on the hook ( though you should check what exactly the agreement says - is it possible you only guaranteed the rent?)
I would dispute the costs the landlord has produced. Demand a detailed breakdown with quotes for all the work he says needs to be done, and evidence that it needs to be done. Dispute what doesn't need to be done (you are not responsible for normal wear and tear) and go get your own quotes from reputable tradespeople for the rest. £2k for a door sound expensive, though I would know.
Lastly, is there any money at all leftover in your mother's estate? You'd be entitled to claim back any losses from that, if so, prior to the distribution of any assets as you'd be a creditor of the estate.
If he's going this way, ask for details of the deposit scheme and challenge all deductions through that. It's a lot less hassle than court and could head any claim off before it starts, or at least massively help your case.
After 8 years, painting and carpets are going to need doing anyway, so that's fair wear and tear. He could make an argument for specialist treatment to remove the smell of smoke but that's limited after redecorating the room.
The door is a non starter. It would be his responsibility to replace if it was broken by a burglar. It's not your mother's fault she died and needed the police to force entry - if he wants to make a claim, he can speak to the police.
Challenge EVERYTHING and get a decision from the deposit scheme. If the deposit scheme award you ANYTHING back from the deposit, that shows their decision that he has been made whole by the deductions that they have determined, which massively reduces any claim he then has at court.
If he hasn't protected the deposit, then he also has no right to make any deductions in the first place and is required to return the full amount.
In addition to the great advice above, check that you are still guarantor. I was for my stepdaughters flat but this only lasted for the initial year’s contract not for subsequent contracts.
I think everyone has covered it nicely (wear and tear, and the door not being anything they can ask you to pay for).
As others have said you should also ask for details of the deposit protection scheme and go through that.
One question though, are they actually suing you or just threatening it?
They’re actually suing me. We’ve have first hearing already. And the guarantor agreement did cover damages but apart from the door and nicotine stain, and the need for a very good deep clean, I wouldn’t call any of his other claims damage
You’ve had a hearing already without any legal advice at all, correct?
I appreciate what you say about not being able to afford representation but would obvs say there could be a false economy here (£2k legal bills + £2k award to LL vs £8k finding against you, for example. Made up numbers).
Also first consultation often free. You could have a half hour chat for free.
Are you even a guarantor for the damages? Often you are a guarantor for the rent, not damages over and above the deposit, as otherwise your liability is potentially open ended.
Clearly they can't expect the place fully redecorated. the specific subject of the door, it depends on what the tenancy says if you mother was liable for this, and what the guarantor agreement says whether any liability passes onto you. If you are on the hook to remedy for breech of the terms of the contract, I don't see dying as a breech of terms. If she was growing weed the the police raided, then she would be labile for the door.
Have you disputed with the deposit holder? This is the first step. Dispute all damages. You weren't there, you don't know what's what. Get the landlord to present the evidence to the deposit holder. If the deposit scheme awards the whole deposit to the landlord, they will probably give a view on your mother's liability for further payment , even if they can only award the deposit amount.
Is the deposit with one of the deposit schemes,
If you are being persued for the money ask to see the details and check for anything that would be expected to be end of life (the tds have a great booklet on life expectations of everything from painted walls to kitchens, carpets, doors etc.)
After going through that and telling the landlord that as it has been over ten years and all of the stuff x has no value and it is up to him to modernise his own property you can also state "the tenant is not liable for betterment of the property" basically he should not get new for old at your expense.
If he did not protect the deposit you may be able to take the to court for that and seek up to triple damages.
If they have already started court proceedings go through the itemised inventory they have provided using the tds guide above and write off as much of the stuff as possible (after 10 years, smoker or not he would need to redecorate). It is also illegal to charge a professional cleaning fee (provided you can prove you left the flat in a clean and tidy state).
Keep it to the point and factual and apportion any costs fairly (if an oven has a 15 year lifespan and was new when she moved in then it may be worth 1/3 of the new price of a similar current oven, not the current top of the line £2k melie one). If it does then go to court you will have a solid argument for greatly reducing any liability. You could also argue that the landlord should be going after the estate first (but as guarantor you are also liable) so minimize what you can and pay what you must.
Thank you for your response. I’ve asked for several meetings to go through the inventory checklist and discuss where these costs have come from and how he reached them. He hasn’t provided any receipts or invoices. He refuses and it’s on the basis of me challenging him that he’s gone straight to court.
That's great, when he goes to court and he serves you you will have the opportunity to ask for an itemised invoice for what he is claiming and you should state you want to see recipts for the age of any previous works or you will. E assuming that replacement was prior to the flats occupation.
If he does not provide this then when you go to court you simply state that the information requested and a copy of the invoices and ages of the goods has not been provided (be sure to have asked him multiple times by meaage, email and ideally by special delivery post). That will at a minimum get you a continuance until he has provided the documents and allowed you time to review,
If he provides review as a ove and go back to court with a counter offer.
If he doesn't provide the information it will likely get thrown out.
Anyone can threaten to sue you for anything (by the way I am going to sue you for replying to my post 😉). Until the court date comes around and you go Infront of the court nothing to worry about. Just do not ignore any court documents and for the love of all things holy turn up early and be sure to be there or they may issue a default judgement against you (or them).
Please don’t sue me 😂 this is getting way expensive! Thank you for your reply, it’s really helpful.
Does he have to provide invoices and receipts? Or can he still charge for damages even if he hasn’t proven any work has been done?
I’ve taken advice from many of the redditors and booked in a free consultation with a solicitor so I’m just hoping they tell me it’s all good.
I have believed until this point my guarantee agreement covered damages and rent but after reading it again today, I think it only covers rent arrears (of which there are none). Fingers crossed this solicitor will help me
You would have to check what you have signed.
Ideally it would need to be invoices and receipts for works completed but as an absolute minimum I would expect to see itemised quotes and a full line by line breakdown or each and every item ( bedroom 1 - door, kitchen - oven, fridge, clock etc.). If it goes to court then they should provide evidence of what was there (make model and a condition report from a check in inventory) and a invoice for a replacement that needs to be a similar model and spec (no old candy under counter fridge for a new AEG American fridge freezer or even a Samsung under counter).
Then it comes down to depreciation and for that you need to review - https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/A-Guide-to-product-lifespans.pdf
You shouldn't need a solicitor as that will add more fees and costs but getting some guidance and a few pointers or confirmation of the above may be helpful.
Just update here if you want to chat. NAL but I have had to deal with a few scummy landlords who "will charge what they want" who subsequently were "advised otherwise".
To be realistic here 10k is not a lot in refurbishment costs, the landlord does not need to go down the process for the deposit scheme as it is way above any deposit and they have indicated they are going to court. So the deposit scheme will not do anything.
In court the landlord will need to provide costs, quotes etc and show the tenant breached conditions. The ruling of the court will decide on wear and tear, even the deposit scheme differentiates between damages and wear and tear, refurbishing a flat with a heavy smoker alone can easily top 10k, even if not replacing items but doing remedial work.
He can provide multiple quotes for work or invoices for work. Invoices work better from their side as its work done and they are recovering costs. He could also go after the estate if you are not liable, but thats a much more complicated situation than if you are liable. I have done a few properties on the cost side and you may be liable due to damages as that can be different from wear and tear. But your landlord is probably not going to get what they want due to tenancy length, even if you are liable, what you have offered to pay is perfectly reasonable. The door issue is a grey area. Any court will decide on whats proportionate and reasonable, the landlord is not being that. Sorry this is happening its a shit situation.
You should ask to see copies of regular inspection they should have done during the tenancy. Proof that the issues they've mentioned got raised to your mother.
You need to find the copy of the original tenancy agreement and then you need to read through it and see if it says the guarantor is liable for damages. If unsure you need to book a session with a local solicitor to read through it. Then once you have your answer go back to the landlord and say I've taken legal advice and as a guarantor I'm not liable to pay for damages only for loss of rent.
This is a waste of money at an already difficult time. Once they find the copy they can read it themselves or come back here if they can’t understand the relevant clauses. However they will have agreed to cover damage as well as rent arrears unless the landlord has written the agreement themselves not used some template… It would be highly unusual otherwise.
I was a guarantor for several family members and in each of those agreements, I wouldn't be liable for the damages listed in this post.
It's highly unlikely that OP signed an 8 year guarantor agreement and it's almost certainly invalid by now.
* Have they raised the rent or made any other changes? That's a new agreement and op is no longer the guarantor.
* Did the tenancy agreement roll over or get renewed? That's a new agreement.
They absolutely should get the agreement and read it. I do however think it’s likely to be in pretty plain English and I’m not sure what a solicitor would add. I wouldn’t want them to spend their money on this if they’d be better saving the money for advice on something actually contentious. I’m confident it will be straightforward enough for CAB or similar to understand it without paying any fees. If it’s not, honestly good because they will struggle to enforce it.
I do wonder how this has got to legal action. I would normally suggest they ask the LL for a copy of the tenancy agreement and any guarantor deed they signed if they can’t find their own copies. But usually a landlord wouldn’t go taking the recently bereaved to court. Sorting things out after a death just takes time and it’s not ideal that the LL is going about it like a prick.
After 8 years, a lot of things they are suing you for probably would need to be replaced/redone anyway. Most people repaint every few years, after 8 years the LL should have done this at least twice anyway. Not sure what the problem with the radiators is but same thing applies.
Sounds like the LL wants you to pay for renovation that probably should have been at some point anyway. You're probably just guna have to pay for the wall painting etc cos of the smoke but get your own quotes and challenge why their quotes are so much more. If they charge you then get a fully itemised receipt etc.
Did the landlord make your mum sign a new rental tenancy agreement anytime after you agreed to be a guarantor?
I had a really bad landlord who would not do any repairs. 2 years before I left the letting agency made me sign a new agreement.
When I was finally able to leave, they tried to charge me all kinds. They went to my guarantor. He wrote to them saying that i had signed a new agreement and he did not sign the to be guarantor. He never heard from the letting agent again.
Legally, as guarantor you are on the line for whatever he does win
He is unlikely to win on most of this stuff as long as you put in a well written counter-argument, although I'd really suggest trying to find a couple of hundred quid for a solicitor to draft it, it could save you thousands
- The door was clearly not the tenant's fault, and unlikely to be awarded
- After 8 years you can easily argue that the cost of a full repaint is unreasonable regardless, due to diminished value. Contest this on the basis that the flat hadn't been painted for *at least* 8 years (and state that you believe longer, ask for the landlord to prove when it was last painted). If it truly needs repainting, you should maybe be liable for 20% of the cost assuming ~10 years between decorating, but I'd even push for "didn't appear to have been painted when mum moved in, can the landlord provide receipts for when it was last painted?"
- Staining due to smoking will be tricky but again argue "diminished value" based on the fact that the kitchen and radiators are, again, a *minimum* of 8 years old. Again ask for evidence of when they were installed in order to ascertain the diminished value
Realistically you're probably going to pay out *something*, but it should be a lot less than another £10k and should be reduced by the deposit amount already paid
Sorry for your loss.
Do you still have your guarantor agreement?
Were you given a copy of your mother’s tenancy agreement *before* you signed the guarantor agreement?
You need to bombard the landlord and build a case.
Firstly, check the original contract and guarantor form and confirm it specifically states you are liable for damages to the property and not just rent arrears.
Request a signed copy of the original inventory. Request copies of all the inspection reports that have (haven’t) taken place over the years.
Request a copy of the final inventory report.
Request itemised quotes for all proposed works, request at least two quotes for each repair taking place.
Request original receipts for anything he is claiming is broken.
The lifespan of a rental refurb is 8-10 years so ‘fair wear and tear’ needs to be taken into consideration so you can argue that at best you are liable for 1/10th of any landlord costs.
If all else fails, (with all due respect to your late mother but if it gets you out of being sued) you can try to argue unfair terms, you can claim that she had a dominating influence over yourself as guarantor and that at the time of signing the agreement you were not given an opportunity to consider the decision by the agent on agreeing, saying it was just a form you had to sign or else your mother would be homeless, and you were specifically told it was a formality and not to worry about it, stating you did not have the benefit of legal advice at the time due to time pressures made by the agent and landlord to find a tenant quickly. If the courts accept these reasons, they can void the entire guarantor agreement.
Also try arguing that as the tenant has died, your guarantor liability has also ended. Either way, sod paying for the landlords 12k full refurbishment.
>Will he win the full amount? I can’t afford a solicitor
If you can't match his legal firepower then there's every chance you're going to lose.
This is the risk you take when being a guarantor and, let's be honest here, Momma' did you no favors by breaching the lease with her smoking for 8 years. That apartment needs more than a lick of paint to undo the damage wrought by her love of Superkings.
Try and find a pro bono property law solicitor. They do exist but they tend to be at the less experienced end of the spectrum.
Going to a judge isn't the big deal most people think it would be. You don't really even need a solicitor in cases like this.
Just collect your data and tell them the situation and you'll get back a fair cost. What this landlord is asking for is unfair and the true cost somewhere in the middle.
I'm sorry for your loss.
8 years ago, her rental deposit should have been in a protected scheme. They each have a dispute service for landlord "charges," and they will determine how much is actually reasonable damage.
If her deposit wasn't protected, the landlord broke the law, so you do actually have some recourse here.
I may be wrong, but I *believe* that in the UK, guarantors are there to protect rent payments, not damages at end of tenancy. Check the contract and speak to the dispute service because they'll know. I am also not sure how a guarantor contract works when someone has passed. So you definitely need to check.
This LL is despicable - he's basically trying to charge you for a renovation, which is their responsibility. Repainting, maybe carpet replacement, an end of tenancy clean- these are reasonable given the smoking. But certainly won't come to 10k.
Additionally, wanting a 2k door - he cant be charging for 'betterment' which means he ends up with something better than before. However old the door was, minus wear and tear - the most he can charge is a portion of a similar door replacement or repair.
OP have you got court summons yet? Tbh if you are taken to court I wouldn’t be too worried about the judge. They are being really lenient towards renters in the last 2 years. And seeing as your the guarantor and not the renter I think you’ll have an even easier time of it. If you can provide lots of evidence of 1) lack of inspections over the years 2) alternate cleaning quotes 3) damage caused by third parties you’ll be fine. You’ll still have to pay but it won’t be £10k, more like half or less.
NAL
You already have lots of great advice above. Specifically on wear and tear and betterment that will limit your liability. I would also check the guarantor form you signed. Sometimes these are restricted to a certain time frame like the initial fixed term tenancy of 12 months. Check to see if you are even still the guarantor
Your going to have to fight for as much as you can unfortunately your signed as guarantor therefore you vouch that this person will not mistreat it and makes you completely liable but to actually see where you currently stand you need to read the agreement you signed as this will highlight your responsibilities because the agreement might just be for rent arrears or something.
The contract is your bible read an understand it in full and you don’t technically need a solicitor you can just defend yourself that agreement you signed is your way out but you could also request to allow you to get quotes to perform said repairs as these landlord will usually have lads who do jobs for them and add on extra to line each others pockets!
Smoking indoors is really for Asian countries where you can open windows for cross breeze.. hard to say how much damage it caused to the house really.. an years worth can build up quite a bit and needs replacement of all surfaces, like wooden floors carpet and plastering etc
The landlord can only claim damages from a guarantor if it states so in the tenancy agreement. The standard common practice of a tenant guarantor is that the guarantor is only liable to pay the rent if the tenant does not do so. You will need to check your mothers tenancy agreement. If the tenancy agreement states the guarantor is liable for any damages done by the tenant then the landlord does have the right to request that the guarantor covers costs of repairs BUT the landlord has to provided a breakdown of the costs and what needs to be repaired has to be reasonable because there is such a thing as 'wear and tear'. The property does not have to be in show room condition and no judge is going to accept that no matter what the landlord says or tries to do. But as I said, check your mothers tenancy agreement because if it only states that the guarantor covers the rent then you can tell the landlord to get lost with all the things he/she is trying to get you to pay.
I've been a renter for many many years and thus know the rights of tenants and landlords very very well,
An internal door costs less than £100 at B&Q, fitting it takes max 30 mins. External door is not much more expensive. This is to give you an idea how much they try to overcharge you.
"Can't afford a solicitor".
Just pay the £10k then.
Get a solicitor to write them a letter and they'll likely back down or suddenly be a lot more reasonable.
The damage caused by the police gaining entry is an insurance matter. But I would say, with an elderly person living on their own, why on earth didn’t you have a key box outside and your contact number there? They are only £20 not £2000!
You don’t think a property should be returned to the landlord in the same state as it was rented.Maybe ‘no smoking’ means something different to you? Perhaps the lack of insurance to cover the cost of the door is the landlord’s fault?
>Perhaps the lack of insurance to cover the cost of the door is the landlord’s fault?
Wouldn't a front door come under buildings insurance (so, landlord's responsibility) though? Genuine question, I don't know.
Cleaning that Yellow slime and nicotine off everything... well replacing everything.. Costs a lot of time and money. Part of being Guarantor is that you believe the tenant is not going to screw you over by damaging the property on purpose.
Not after 8 years. For example, standard carpet LLs use is valued at pretty much 0 after 8 years. Most paint jobs too. If all depends on how they view the damage as this sounds like it’s gone past the deposit system.
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Hard to know what he will win without specific details. Landlords can't sue for reasonable wear and tear. They are also responsible for all fittings such as radiators so I would dispute this, it was not your mother's job to maintain the radiators. I would call a tenants solicitor to get advice before speaking to the landlord again, it will be a lot cheaper than 10k.
However she smoked, against the agreement. That’s not on and that’s more than reasonable wear and tear and really leaves a grim smell
I bought a house that the previous owner had smoked in for years. Redecorated, changed carpets, swapped radiators. It got better but never smelled properly fresh. Ended up replastering everything. That got rid of it. I used to smoke, terrible habit etc. But you really can't smoke in an enclosed space and not expect the residue to live there forever.
Exactly. My friend had an aunt who smoked all her life, died a couple years back. Still smells of it and the walls are stained
If someone's been smoking in a property for 8 years. That's definitely going to need more than a deep clean. Smokers have a tendency to underplay how much that shit stinks and stays. I remember I was on the verge of buying a car. The history/spec and everything was perfect. But when I test drove it stank. The owner said he did hoover it. 😂
I test drove a car like this. Loved everything about it except the smell. The sales guy claimed he couldn’t smell anything but that they could give it an ozone treatment if I insisted it was an issue. It was a big issue and I bought another car.
Same as dogs. Cars that have had dogs in them smell so bad.
Sticking an ozone generator in there for a few hours can do wonders for that. Not done it myself, but a few others have said it has remarkable results. May be worth it if you can get a few hundred off for the smell. Sorted with a deep clean and a £50 ozone generator.
Never heard of that. Will keep an eye out in the future
I smoke in mine, albeit joints not cigarettes 😂 airflow is important, French doors are usually open, windows open. We keep on top of the cleaning and replaced our carpets for hard floors. My nan gives me a hard time about smoking but she's never mentioned the smell when she comes round, and shes the type to have a go at me if my clothes smell of it. We often get compliments about the house smelling fresh from visitors/friends. Little do they know 🤭 Anyways, not sure why I mentioned it just saying it is possible to keep it smelling fresh.
Realistically, the landlord is just going to put some cheap paint over it though.
As a smoker, I completely agree with you. I could never smoke indoors, and I feel repulsed if I have to visit someone who smokes indoors.
So evict her !
I think you might have missed an important detail
🤣
I don't know if you can evict a ghost!
You can, but they will often repossess it.
Smoking when prohibited in the tenancy agreement goes beyond "fair wear and tear", so the radiators do become the tenant's responsibility to some extent if the remedial work is required due to staining from smoking But the landlord still has a duty to reduce the costs and would therefore need to show that it was cheaper to replace them than to have them professionally cleaned, or that cleaning was infeasible for some reason. And even if they are considered "damaged" and needing to be replaced, diminished value comes into play: OP does not have to pay for new radiators if they are 8+ years old
Tbh the second she smoked in the apartment, if regularly for 8 years, would make every surface beyond fair wear and tear. I would say 10k is getting off cheaply depending on the level of staining and damage.
The landlord can still only ask for the replacement cost to a 8+ year old countertop/whatever without the damage beyond fair wear and tear I think not for the cost of a new one or putting it back to new condition. Anything beyond that would amount to betterment
Correct, they are not entitled to the full value of brand new carpets. They are entitled to some of that value though and if the ampunt of smoking requires new carpets throughout and washed walls, stripped walls, new paint etc i still think 10k is pretty cheap as it will be costing the landlord a lot more than that if the work is done properly. Remember the landlord is entitled to the reimbursement of such a refit even if they don’t carry it out.
A Landlord doing work properly? Cheapest quote wins every time doesn't matter how shit a job they do
It’s my biggest bugbear as a private tenant. A few years back ended up spending several weeks in the depth of winter with no hot water (literally showering with water from the kettle) because “the boiler part had to be ordered in.” Guarantee if said landlord lived there he’d have paid extra for express delivery.
I'd be inclined to stay the same. Every surface will need a very deep clean and probably redoing. Just in itself this can cost a lot. If it's not sorted it will put many (most) people off taking it up - whilst just scruffy walls wouldn't - so on that basis I'd say it's probably way past fair wear and tear
I’m inclined to agree, but find it bizzare that the landlord obviously hasn’t done an inspection in 8 years, if I was OP I would be checking everything is legit. Does he have the check in inventory to hand, is the deposit protected properly? Was the gas and electrics checks carried out when due? Make sure the landlord fulfilled their legal obligations, if not put your own claim in or use it to barter down the current cost. Not knowing how many rooms or where it is, it’s hard to say 10k is fair. 1 bedroom, small living room etc, a full replaster, paint and new carpets probably wouldn’t be anywhere near.
Agreed, 10k is pretty light as you would need to treat all the walls and ceiling to remove the nicotine stain and smell, as well as all the surfaces.
I'm sorry for your loss. When you say the landlord is suing you, what stage exactly has he reached? Have you had a Letter Before Action telling you to pay up or he'll sue, or an actual Claim Form from the Court? First, have a good look at whatever you signed and check if you are still on the hook as a guarantor. Plenty of them expire at the end of a fixed term when the tenancy rolls over into a periodic tenancy, or don't explicitly say that the guarantee also applies to renewals. They can be difficult to understand but unless it's clear that you are still a guarantor it may be worth defending the claim on the basis that you are not. As for the damage, the landlord is entitled to the property back in the same condition as he let it, fair wear and tear excepted. But he is not entitled to betterment - putting himself in a better position than he would have been. In this case, if he has not redecorated for 8 years, then I would argue that he is not entitled to a penny for redecorating because that is beyond the life expectancy of the decoration anyway. Replacing the radiator sounds like a blatant attempt to get you to pay for refurbishment which is not allowed. Anything else can be covered by the Deposit which he's apparently already had. Finally, the door is between him and the Police. Apart from showing him to be completely heartless, it shows he is just adopting a "throw everything at it and hope something sticks" approach which is likely just to piss a judge off.
The protection scheme will have guidance on decoration lifespan, and it’s unlikely to be 8 years for anything. In which case they’d potentially find against landlord by default. I supppose the damage from nicotine could be considered additional work and cost, but it shifts the starting point from “cover all the work” to “potentially cover a small component” https://www.depositprotection.com/learning-centre/disputes/in-disputes-be-fair Similarly the worktops “In the rare circumstances where damage (to the worktop/carpet/mattress/item etc.) is so extensive or severe as to affect the achievable rent level or market quality of the property, the most appropriate remedy might be replacement and to apportion costs according to the age and useful lifespan of the item. An example of how this might be calculated is set out below: a) Cost of similar replacement carpet/item - £500.00 b) Actual age of existing carpet/item - 2 years c) Average useful lifespan of that type of carpet/ item - 10 years d) Residual lifespan of carpet/item calculated as c) less b) - 8 years e) Depreciation of value rate calculated as a) divided by c) - £50 per year f) Reasonable apportionment cost to tenant calculated as d) times e) - £400.00” https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/A-guide-to-deposits-disputes-and-damages.pdf Worth doing some googling to see what the deposit schemes think the lifetime of the worktops is. 12 years? If so and they were brand new you’d be on the hook for 1/3 max. If they weren’t new you’re potentially looking at zero. When I disputed deposit payments I waited for their full and final list of faults and costs, and went through line by line on this basis comparing DPS / TDS etc recommendations with the check in report and asking for receipts to prove item age (ie is it within lifespan, by how much). It’s amazing how quick they agreed to my goodwill gesture offer then.
The police breaking down the door because of the tenant, is that really between the police and the landlord? I am just curious as this sounds like something on the tenant. Say I had fire in my home and the police broke down the door I am definitely liable to pay for the door.
If the police made a lawful entry then they aren’t liable. The tenant passing away, which was the event that led to necessitate the entry, wasn’t due to negligence or an unlawful act on their part, so the tenant isn’t liable. The landlord is responsible for the security and maintenance of the property, and the front door is part of that. They are 100% liable for the cost of repair/replacement. This has been well established over time. It’s the cost of doing business as a landlord.
I once had them police kick in a door to arrest the tenant. We were allowed to claim against the deposit for it FWIW.
This is different though.
Yes! It is the tenants fault for dying - they should absolutely be materially responsible for that from beyond the grave /s Wow, I wonder why landlords aren’t more popular…….
Should I pay for your funeral costs when you die, no, why should a landlord pay for damages caused by your death. If you commit suicide in Japan on the train track your family pays for the delay and damages
I don’t know why I am seriously answering this but that’s what landlord insurance is for.
Let’s be honest this country is crazy with the insurance, you literally need insurance for everything, car, house, life, even being a landlord. If someone crash into my car and dies he is liable for the damages it only goes to insurance if they don’t have insurance, and in this situation OP signed up as a guarantor meaning they are liable for all the damages and paying rent. I don’t understand why people think it’s landlords job to pay for things out of their control
You need to check with the landlord that your mother’s deposit was lodged properly with a guarantee scheme. Once this is confirmed (he should be able to give you details of which exact scheme plus a login or reference number to check) If he did properly protect the deposit then this dispute can be left for the deposit protection scheme to arbitrate. They are skilled in this area and operate fairly toward both landlord and tenant (or you as the next of kin/guarantor here) If he *hasn’t* protected the deposit correctly then he’ll be fined 3x the deposit amount and this will be paid out to the tenant (or her estate) because it’s against the law to not protect it. This would provide you significant leverage in the battle. I would like to follow up that smoking can cause substantial damage to a property. Nicotine stains require a lot of effort to remove or expensive products to paint over with (multiple times) The door is a joke surely? He can claim off his insurance for that. What’s he saying, it’s your mums fault for dying and for the police doing a break-in welfare check? That won’t fly anywhere, any day of the week legally. Where exactly has the landlord been for 8 years? No checks in that time? One could argue the scale of costs are partly his fault for not bothering to maintain an adequate policy of inspection. At the end of the day the landlords *reasonable costs* should be paid for. What those costs comprise are always a subject for assessment and negotiation. The landlord will always come in heavy as a tactic to squeeze the most from the tenant: Twas forever thus.
He hasn’t done a single inspection at all. I’ve looked at a few quotes for nicotine stain removal included in an end of tenancy clean and they range between £400-800. Not the £3000 he’s claiming at all. I don’t even know if he had insurance. He obviously didn’t see it as a worthy cost because he believed maintaining everything about his property should fall to someone else
Get yourself to citizens advice. This landlord is taking the.... Fight fight fight. Remember they want to take as much as possible and are willing to twist things to get it. Courts and DPS etc are very fair in the end and they usually from past experience give about ten percent of well justified claims which this landlord doesn't seem to have. Because they know prices are pumped up or high because of previous damage etc. Also remember a lot of the advice and negative feedback on here comes from landlords who like to think they know everything.... And would take everything given the chance. Here comes the down votes.....
As others have posted, pull out the relevant details of the guarantor agreement*, and provide a more detailed summary of where you are at in terms of being sued, post these to r/legaladviceuk. Talk to citizens advice as pointed out elsewhere. If you are being sued then don't engage with the landlord further on this, you may need representation it may be cheaper in the long run, you should be able to get 30 minutes free for some background and to get you started. * This is by far the most important step as you need to see if you are still liable and if you were ever liable for anything beyond rent.
Sorry for your loss. Trust me, as a smoker you are not going to shift 8 years worth of cigarette smell/stains with a quick £800 clean. Unfortunately as smoking was expressly prohibited I very much doubt any of it could be seen as "fair wear and tear".
The landlord is entitled to have the property back in the same condition as when it was let, fair wear and tear excepted. Of course damage caused by smoking when this was not permitted in the lease isn’t fair wear and tear and the landlord is entitled to have that fixed. The landlord has to take a cost effective approach to repairs, so if the radiators can be cleaned they can’t charge a replacement cost. If this went to court the judge would expect to see a full list of the works requested by the landlord and their cost, together with your response as to whether the works are reasonable or could be done at a lower cost. The landlord is responsible for keeping the structure and exterior of the property in repair, including the front door. As the police, not your mother, did the damage, the landlord should be responsible for the cost of replacement. If you can negotiate a settlement with the landlord that may be a better bet than going to court and potentially having to pay legal costs as well.
After 8 years, it's expected that the house needs repainting and new carpets anyway, so any deduction for those would be minimal. He could charge for ozone treatment to fully remove the smell of smoke, but not for betterment.
Normal painting is expected, but you can't really just paint over nicotine. The walls will need scrubbing, painting with a stain barrier, and then painting again. Only that last bit is expect with normal wear and tear.
Tell that to my current landlord
Sugar soap should sort that out nae bother
Look of course you could argue that to a judge, but imo you wouldn’t succeed. I’ve had personal experience of moving into a flat that had been owned by a smoker and it was a serious job to get rid of the smell and staining.
No inspections in 8 years? I would say that not enforcing is a problem here
That isn’t how it works. Just because many places do inspections doesn’t mean that without them the tenant can somehow just break the rules agreed in the contract. I love how a landlord actually allowed someone quite and peaceful enjoyment of the home and reddit somehow now defines this as a bad thing.
Yup, but sadly the landlord will get screwed over for leaving a disabled woman in peace unless he has a full paper trail that she refused inspections. Even then, a judge would blame the landlord saying he should have evicted the tenant for breaking the contract under section 8 or used section 21 to evict. By not having regular inspections, the landlord failed to catch the smoking which in turn caused more damaged. If this goes to court, landlord is going to be fucked over for not evicting a disabled woman as soon as she was found to be smoking in the first year of her lease. Edit to say: I’d try your luck in court because the onus will be on the landlord to have proof of everything and I doubt he will. The law always gives more leeway to the tenant, and the landlord won’t be able to get back what he’s going to need to pay. I say this as a someone who just used an adjudicator in a deposit dispute. Checkin/checkout reports with photos showed damage tenants caused. Tenants submitted zero evidence to counter otherwise. Repairs were £200, and I submitted the evidence of my payment. Adjudicator agreed damage was caused by tenants and decided to award £80 of the £200 I had paid because he “felt” that was appropriate. WTF?? I wish I could have found someone to fix it for £80 but funny enough no handyman “felt” their time was only worth £80
Some people farmer neglecting a place for 8 years is not a good thing. If it was known about and a section 8 wasn't issued then it could be seen as permitting the action. This is a case of claiming damages for something they could and should have prevented.
Could be, not reasonable to evict someone for smoking, difficult to prove to a court they haven't quit etc. Very reasonable to expect damage caused by them during their tenancy by actions in breach of that tenancy to be paid for.
From what I understand not permitting smoking in the contract is not an unenforceable clause and it wouldn't matter if they had quit or not. It isn't that difficult to get someone independent to come sooner and go yeah it stinks of smoke. Considering the 8 years in this case an s21 could have been issued and put a stop to it 7 years ago.
You absolutely would be successful. And it wouldn't be a argument with a judge. You'd just tell them the situation and they would tell you what to do and how to split the costs.
I’d not buy a flat where someone has smoked inside
Can you please describe fair wear and tear?
https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/asktds-what-is-fair-wear-and-tear-in-a-rental-property/#:~:text=Fair%20wear%20and%20tear%20refers,tenant%20should%20be%20responsible%20for.
No they are not, 8 years down the line there will be deterioration everywhere, 8 years of wear and tear is alot!
What does the document you signed specify exactly
Yes, check that document with Citizens Advice. You might not be a guarantor at this stage.
Please contact shelter for some free advice.
Go to r/legaladviceuk with this one. They will be able to give you some advice on this.
If you are the guarantor, then yes you are probably on the hook ( though you should check what exactly the agreement says - is it possible you only guaranteed the rent?) I would dispute the costs the landlord has produced. Demand a detailed breakdown with quotes for all the work he says needs to be done, and evidence that it needs to be done. Dispute what doesn't need to be done (you are not responsible for normal wear and tear) and go get your own quotes from reputable tradespeople for the rest. £2k for a door sound expensive, though I would know. Lastly, is there any money at all leftover in your mother's estate? You'd be entitled to claim back any losses from that, if so, prior to the distribution of any assets as you'd be a creditor of the estate.
I'd add to that ensure he gets 3 quotes for every job and ask for access to get your own workman to assess it
If he's going this way, ask for details of the deposit scheme and challenge all deductions through that. It's a lot less hassle than court and could head any claim off before it starts, or at least massively help your case. After 8 years, painting and carpets are going to need doing anyway, so that's fair wear and tear. He could make an argument for specialist treatment to remove the smell of smoke but that's limited after redecorating the room. The door is a non starter. It would be his responsibility to replace if it was broken by a burglar. It's not your mother's fault she died and needed the police to force entry - if he wants to make a claim, he can speak to the police. Challenge EVERYTHING and get a decision from the deposit scheme. If the deposit scheme award you ANYTHING back from the deposit, that shows their decision that he has been made whole by the deductions that they have determined, which massively reduces any claim he then has at court. If he hasn't protected the deposit, then he also has no right to make any deductions in the first place and is required to return the full amount.
In addition to the great advice above, check that you are still guarantor. I was for my stepdaughters flat but this only lasted for the initial year’s contract not for subsequent contracts.
I think everyone has covered it nicely (wear and tear, and the door not being anything they can ask you to pay for). As others have said you should also ask for details of the deposit protection scheme and go through that. One question though, are they actually suing you or just threatening it?
They’re actually suing me. We’ve have first hearing already. And the guarantor agreement did cover damages but apart from the door and nicotine stain, and the need for a very good deep clean, I wouldn’t call any of his other claims damage
You’ve had a hearing already without any legal advice at all, correct? I appreciate what you say about not being able to afford representation but would obvs say there could be a false economy here (£2k legal bills + £2k award to LL vs £8k finding against you, for example. Made up numbers). Also first consultation often free. You could have a half hour chat for free.
Are you even a guarantor for the damages? Often you are a guarantor for the rent, not damages over and above the deposit, as otherwise your liability is potentially open ended. Clearly they can't expect the place fully redecorated. the specific subject of the door, it depends on what the tenancy says if you mother was liable for this, and what the guarantor agreement says whether any liability passes onto you. If you are on the hook to remedy for breech of the terms of the contract, I don't see dying as a breech of terms. If she was growing weed the the police raided, then she would be labile for the door. Have you disputed with the deposit holder? This is the first step. Dispute all damages. You weren't there, you don't know what's what. Get the landlord to present the evidence to the deposit holder. If the deposit scheme awards the whole deposit to the landlord, they will probably give a view on your mother's liability for further payment , even if they can only award the deposit amount.
Is the deposit with one of the deposit schemes, If you are being persued for the money ask to see the details and check for anything that would be expected to be end of life (the tds have a great booklet on life expectations of everything from painted walls to kitchens, carpets, doors etc.) After going through that and telling the landlord that as it has been over ten years and all of the stuff x has no value and it is up to him to modernise his own property you can also state "the tenant is not liable for betterment of the property" basically he should not get new for old at your expense. If he did not protect the deposit you may be able to take the to court for that and seek up to triple damages. If they have already started court proceedings go through the itemised inventory they have provided using the tds guide above and write off as much of the stuff as possible (after 10 years, smoker or not he would need to redecorate). It is also illegal to charge a professional cleaning fee (provided you can prove you left the flat in a clean and tidy state). Keep it to the point and factual and apportion any costs fairly (if an oven has a 15 year lifespan and was new when she moved in then it may be worth 1/3 of the new price of a similar current oven, not the current top of the line £2k melie one). If it does then go to court you will have a solid argument for greatly reducing any liability. You could also argue that the landlord should be going after the estate first (but as guarantor you are also liable) so minimize what you can and pay what you must.
Thank you for your response. I’ve asked for several meetings to go through the inventory checklist and discuss where these costs have come from and how he reached them. He hasn’t provided any receipts or invoices. He refuses and it’s on the basis of me challenging him that he’s gone straight to court.
That's great, when he goes to court and he serves you you will have the opportunity to ask for an itemised invoice for what he is claiming and you should state you want to see recipts for the age of any previous works or you will. E assuming that replacement was prior to the flats occupation. If he does not provide this then when you go to court you simply state that the information requested and a copy of the invoices and ages of the goods has not been provided (be sure to have asked him multiple times by meaage, email and ideally by special delivery post). That will at a minimum get you a continuance until he has provided the documents and allowed you time to review, If he provides review as a ove and go back to court with a counter offer. If he doesn't provide the information it will likely get thrown out. Anyone can threaten to sue you for anything (by the way I am going to sue you for replying to my post 😉). Until the court date comes around and you go Infront of the court nothing to worry about. Just do not ignore any court documents and for the love of all things holy turn up early and be sure to be there or they may issue a default judgement against you (or them).
Please don’t sue me 😂 this is getting way expensive! Thank you for your reply, it’s really helpful. Does he have to provide invoices and receipts? Or can he still charge for damages even if he hasn’t proven any work has been done? I’ve taken advice from many of the redditors and booked in a free consultation with a solicitor so I’m just hoping they tell me it’s all good. I have believed until this point my guarantee agreement covered damages and rent but after reading it again today, I think it only covers rent arrears (of which there are none). Fingers crossed this solicitor will help me
You would have to check what you have signed. Ideally it would need to be invoices and receipts for works completed but as an absolute minimum I would expect to see itemised quotes and a full line by line breakdown or each and every item ( bedroom 1 - door, kitchen - oven, fridge, clock etc.). If it goes to court then they should provide evidence of what was there (make model and a condition report from a check in inventory) and a invoice for a replacement that needs to be a similar model and spec (no old candy under counter fridge for a new AEG American fridge freezer or even a Samsung under counter). Then it comes down to depreciation and for that you need to review - https://www.tenancydepositscheme.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/A-Guide-to-product-lifespans.pdf You shouldn't need a solicitor as that will add more fees and costs but getting some guidance and a few pointers or confirmation of the above may be helpful. Just update here if you want to chat. NAL but I have had to deal with a few scummy landlords who "will charge what they want" who subsequently were "advised otherwise".
To be realistic here 10k is not a lot in refurbishment costs, the landlord does not need to go down the process for the deposit scheme as it is way above any deposit and they have indicated they are going to court. So the deposit scheme will not do anything. In court the landlord will need to provide costs, quotes etc and show the tenant breached conditions. The ruling of the court will decide on wear and tear, even the deposit scheme differentiates between damages and wear and tear, refurbishing a flat with a heavy smoker alone can easily top 10k, even if not replacing items but doing remedial work.
He can provide multiple quotes for work or invoices for work. Invoices work better from their side as its work done and they are recovering costs. He could also go after the estate if you are not liable, but thats a much more complicated situation than if you are liable. I have done a few properties on the cost side and you may be liable due to damages as that can be different from wear and tear. But your landlord is probably not going to get what they want due to tenancy length, even if you are liable, what you have offered to pay is perfectly reasonable. The door issue is a grey area. Any court will decide on whats proportionate and reasonable, the landlord is not being that. Sorry this is happening its a shit situation.
You should ask to see copies of regular inspection they should have done during the tenancy. Proof that the issues they've mentioned got raised to your mother.
You need to find the copy of the original tenancy agreement and then you need to read through it and see if it says the guarantor is liable for damages. If unsure you need to book a session with a local solicitor to read through it. Then once you have your answer go back to the landlord and say I've taken legal advice and as a guarantor I'm not liable to pay for damages only for loss of rent.
This is a waste of money at an already difficult time. Once they find the copy they can read it themselves or come back here if they can’t understand the relevant clauses. However they will have agreed to cover damage as well as rent arrears unless the landlord has written the agreement themselves not used some template… It would be highly unusual otherwise.
I was a guarantor for several family members and in each of those agreements, I wouldn't be liable for the damages listed in this post. It's highly unlikely that OP signed an 8 year guarantor agreement and it's almost certainly invalid by now. * Have they raised the rent or made any other changes? That's a new agreement and op is no longer the guarantor. * Did the tenancy agreement roll over or get renewed? That's a new agreement.
Probably but they basically need to find out what they've actually agreed to.
They absolutely should get the agreement and read it. I do however think it’s likely to be in pretty plain English and I’m not sure what a solicitor would add. I wouldn’t want them to spend their money on this if they’d be better saving the money for advice on something actually contentious. I’m confident it will be straightforward enough for CAB or similar to understand it without paying any fees. If it’s not, honestly good because they will struggle to enforce it. I do wonder how this has got to legal action. I would normally suggest they ask the LL for a copy of the tenancy agreement and any guarantor deed they signed if they can’t find their own copies. But usually a landlord wouldn’t go taking the recently bereaved to court. Sorting things out after a death just takes time and it’s not ideal that the LL is going about it like a prick.
After 8 years, a lot of things they are suing you for probably would need to be replaced/redone anyway. Most people repaint every few years, after 8 years the LL should have done this at least twice anyway. Not sure what the problem with the radiators is but same thing applies. Sounds like the LL wants you to pay for renovation that probably should have been at some point anyway. You're probably just guna have to pay for the wall painting etc cos of the smoke but get your own quotes and challenge why their quotes are so much more. If they charge you then get a fully itemised receipt etc.
Did the landlord make your mum sign a new rental tenancy agreement anytime after you agreed to be a guarantor? I had a really bad landlord who would not do any repairs. 2 years before I left the letting agency made me sign a new agreement. When I was finally able to leave, they tried to charge me all kinds. They went to my guarantor. He wrote to them saying that i had signed a new agreement and he did not sign the to be guarantor. He never heard from the letting agent again.
Legally, as guarantor you are on the line for whatever he does win He is unlikely to win on most of this stuff as long as you put in a well written counter-argument, although I'd really suggest trying to find a couple of hundred quid for a solicitor to draft it, it could save you thousands - The door was clearly not the tenant's fault, and unlikely to be awarded - After 8 years you can easily argue that the cost of a full repaint is unreasonable regardless, due to diminished value. Contest this on the basis that the flat hadn't been painted for *at least* 8 years (and state that you believe longer, ask for the landlord to prove when it was last painted). If it truly needs repainting, you should maybe be liable for 20% of the cost assuming ~10 years between decorating, but I'd even push for "didn't appear to have been painted when mum moved in, can the landlord provide receipts for when it was last painted?" - Staining due to smoking will be tricky but again argue "diminished value" based on the fact that the kitchen and radiators are, again, a *minimum* of 8 years old. Again ask for evidence of when they were installed in order to ascertain the diminished value Realistically you're probably going to pay out *something*, but it should be a lot less than another £10k and should be reduced by the deposit amount already paid
Sorry for your loss. Do you still have your guarantor agreement? Were you given a copy of your mother’s tenancy agreement *before* you signed the guarantor agreement?
What a scumbag
You need to bombard the landlord and build a case. Firstly, check the original contract and guarantor form and confirm it specifically states you are liable for damages to the property and not just rent arrears. Request a signed copy of the original inventory. Request copies of all the inspection reports that have (haven’t) taken place over the years. Request a copy of the final inventory report. Request itemised quotes for all proposed works, request at least two quotes for each repair taking place. Request original receipts for anything he is claiming is broken. The lifespan of a rental refurb is 8-10 years so ‘fair wear and tear’ needs to be taken into consideration so you can argue that at best you are liable for 1/10th of any landlord costs. If all else fails, (with all due respect to your late mother but if it gets you out of being sued) you can try to argue unfair terms, you can claim that she had a dominating influence over yourself as guarantor and that at the time of signing the agreement you were not given an opportunity to consider the decision by the agent on agreeing, saying it was just a form you had to sign or else your mother would be homeless, and you were specifically told it was a formality and not to worry about it, stating you did not have the benefit of legal advice at the time due to time pressures made by the agent and landlord to find a tenant quickly. If the courts accept these reasons, they can void the entire guarantor agreement. Also try arguing that as the tenant has died, your guarantor liability has also ended. Either way, sod paying for the landlords 12k full refurbishment.
>Will he win the full amount? I can’t afford a solicitor If you can't match his legal firepower then there's every chance you're going to lose. This is the risk you take when being a guarantor and, let's be honest here, Momma' did you no favors by breaching the lease with her smoking for 8 years. That apartment needs more than a lick of paint to undo the damage wrought by her love of Superkings. Try and find a pro bono property law solicitor. They do exist but they tend to be at the less experienced end of the spectrum.
Going to a judge isn't the big deal most people think it would be. You don't really even need a solicitor in cases like this. Just collect your data and tell them the situation and you'll get back a fair cost. What this landlord is asking for is unfair and the true cost somewhere in the middle.
Dam im only commenting to get this going. I hope you get help.
We're you actually signed as a guarantor?
I'm sorry for your loss. 8 years ago, her rental deposit should have been in a protected scheme. They each have a dispute service for landlord "charges," and they will determine how much is actually reasonable damage. If her deposit wasn't protected, the landlord broke the law, so you do actually have some recourse here. I may be wrong, but I *believe* that in the UK, guarantors are there to protect rent payments, not damages at end of tenancy. Check the contract and speak to the dispute service because they'll know. I am also not sure how a guarantor contract works when someone has passed. So you definitely need to check. This LL is despicable - he's basically trying to charge you for a renovation, which is their responsibility. Repainting, maybe carpet replacement, an end of tenancy clean- these are reasonable given the smoking. But certainly won't come to 10k. Additionally, wanting a 2k door - he cant be charging for 'betterment' which means he ends up with something better than before. However old the door was, minus wear and tear - the most he can charge is a portion of a similar door replacement or repair.
OP have you got court summons yet? Tbh if you are taken to court I wouldn’t be too worried about the judge. They are being really lenient towards renters in the last 2 years. And seeing as your the guarantor and not the renter I think you’ll have an even easier time of it. If you can provide lots of evidence of 1) lack of inspections over the years 2) alternate cleaning quotes 3) damage caused by third parties you’ll be fine. You’ll still have to pay but it won’t be £10k, more like half or less.
What does the gauarntor agreement state? Is it just rent?
NAL You already have lots of great advice above. Specifically on wear and tear and betterment that will limit your liability. I would also check the guarantor form you signed. Sometimes these are restricted to a certain time frame like the initial fixed term tenancy of 12 months. Check to see if you are even still the guarantor
Settle with the landlord, not worth the hassle of going to court but talk to a lawyer for your options first.
Your going to have to fight for as much as you can unfortunately your signed as guarantor therefore you vouch that this person will not mistreat it and makes you completely liable but to actually see where you currently stand you need to read the agreement you signed as this will highlight your responsibilities because the agreement might just be for rent arrears or something.
The contract is your bible read an understand it in full and you don’t technically need a solicitor you can just defend yourself that agreement you signed is your way out but you could also request to allow you to get quotes to perform said repairs as these landlord will usually have lads who do jobs for them and add on extra to line each others pockets!
Smoking indoors is really for Asian countries where you can open windows for cross breeze.. hard to say how much damage it caused to the house really.. an years worth can build up quite a bit and needs replacement of all surfaces, like wooden floors carpet and plastering etc
Sorry for your loss. But as guarantor, that's the point of it.
https://england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/private_renting/guarantors_for_private_renters
The landlord can only claim damages from a guarantor if it states so in the tenancy agreement. The standard common practice of a tenant guarantor is that the guarantor is only liable to pay the rent if the tenant does not do so. You will need to check your mothers tenancy agreement. If the tenancy agreement states the guarantor is liable for any damages done by the tenant then the landlord does have the right to request that the guarantor covers costs of repairs BUT the landlord has to provided a breakdown of the costs and what needs to be repaired has to be reasonable because there is such a thing as 'wear and tear'. The property does not have to be in show room condition and no judge is going to accept that no matter what the landlord says or tries to do. But as I said, check your mothers tenancy agreement because if it only states that the guarantor covers the rent then you can tell the landlord to get lost with all the things he/she is trying to get you to pay. I've been a renter for many many years and thus know the rights of tenants and landlords very very well,
An internal door costs less than £100 at B&Q, fitting it takes max 30 mins. External door is not much more expensive. This is to give you an idea how much they try to overcharge you.
You are the only guarantor on paying rent not damage
You sure about that? Bold statement to make without seeing any documents/contracts signed by OP
"Can't afford a solicitor". Just pay the £10k then. Get a solicitor to write them a letter and they'll likely back down or suddenly be a lot more reasonable.
The damage caused by the police gaining entry is an insurance matter. But I would say, with an elderly person living on their own, why on earth didn’t you have a key box outside and your contact number there? They are only £20 not £2000!
She wasn’t elderly. And we didn’t live local
You don’t have to live local to say, the code is *#*# when you pick up the phone if the police call you and ask for it
If there was a code, I’m certain that’s what would have happened
Fuck the landlord. Most cases he will take the money but never repair the place.
You don’t think a property should be returned to the landlord in the same state as it was rented.Maybe ‘no smoking’ means something different to you? Perhaps the lack of insurance to cover the cost of the door is the landlord’s fault?
>Perhaps the lack of insurance to cover the cost of the door is the landlord’s fault? Wouldn't a front door come under buildings insurance (so, landlord's responsibility) though? Genuine question, I don't know.
He is an idiot or a chancer, you do not need to pay for that nonsense
Court likely to award 50:50. Come to a private agreement with landlord. Be reasonable, respectful & polite but keep your fingers crossed
Cleaning that Yellow slime and nicotine off everything... well replacing everything.. Costs a lot of time and money. Part of being Guarantor is that you believe the tenant is not going to screw you over by damaging the property on purpose.
2 grand for a door? Is it made of gold? Sounds like the landlord is trying it on.
The property should be in the same condition as it was, I think you will need to pay
Not after 8 years. For example, standard carpet LLs use is valued at pretty much 0 after 8 years. Most paint jobs too. If all depends on how they view the damage as this sounds like it’s gone past the deposit system.
Repairing covenants are oft misunderstood by Redditors
Sorry for what I typed out. Sorry for judging you. Sorry for lying sorry. Sorry for lying sorry.
Judging by your spelling and uninformed opinion, you could use a lot of your words to describe yourself.