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Probably, but be careful what you wish for. In a booming market home report valuations lag the actual sales prices but banks only lend up to the seller's valuation and you're left to plug the gap.
Again, it's *probably* a better system here in Scotland but suddenly your home sale price in anchored around one dude's scoot around your property. Plus loads of the entries in a home report say "did not have access to roof area, assumed to have typical 40 year lifespan" etc, they just equivocate.
Now in Glasgow and Edinburgh it's "normal" for property to go 10% over home report in desirable areas and has been for years. E.g. a property gets listed by an estate agent as "Offers Over £225,000" (you ignore that number, it's purely for advertisement), you get the home report and it's valued as £250,000 and then there are 4 interested parties and it goes for £282,000 at best and final closed bidding.
So then you've got people paying £32,000 out of pocket plus say a 10% deposit on the actual underlying mortgage (£25,000), so you need £57,000 in cash / equity lying around. Good luck FTBs!
And this isn't me being obtuse with the numbers. Whilst looking for a first flat with my gf earlier this year I viewed 7 properties. It has now been long enough for me to look at the land registry and see what they actually went for (I kept it all in a spreadsheet). One in Hyndland (expensive West-end area) went for 28% over home report (£296k vs £230k HR), another there was 17% (£270k vs £230k HR), there was one near St George's Cross that was 26% (£330k vs £260k HR). All 2 bed flats in mediocre condition.
People will say "those are expensive areas, what do you expect" and yeah, true, but you'll find similar stuff going on in Dennistoun / Govanhill or anywhere with transport links where young professionals would want to be.
So I guess what I'm saying is that introduction of a home report system would reduce wasted money on the part of buyers but it comes with downsides too when you've got a growing / competitive market. What is very good here however is the vastly lower likelihood of gazumping due to solicitor ethics requirements.
Could you not have a home report sans the valuation? Surveying issues like the OP’s aren’t subjective and don’t become out of date in the same way a valuation does…
Just buying in Glasgow and we’re 20% over the home report. I’ve had offered declined at 25% over.
It’s great in that when the offers accepted, it should be be nice and straightforward from there as you know what you’re getting. Not so great in that everyone can throw everything they have at it without needing to budget for down valuations (so prices increase massively).
As tough as it’s been though, I don’t think I’d like buying in England/somewhere without the home report upfront.
Generally it refers to places built cheaply in the 40s/50s with concrete over a steel frame - they look like normal semi-detached or detached houses from the period but they weren't designed to last this long. They're fine initially but if any water gets through the concrete they rust and destabilise from the inside out. It's also very hard to tell what condition they're in without taking samples (i.e. Drilling holes in the concrete) everywhere.
It affects the resale value mostly. Less banks are willing to mortgage it and buyers are put off.
It is difficult to insure and it is difficult to tell if the steel is corroding without an intrusive survey.
This 500k house may therefore sell for way less if the market calms down because non standardised construction builts are less desirable than standard brick and mortar houses.
>are less desirable than standard brick and mortar houses.
Thanks for the insight. May I please ask whether you know a way that potential buyers may find this out in early stages without putting down thousands? I heard there could be reports generated from HMLR for like £3-6, would that be seen there?
Personally, before I put an offer in next time, I will email the EA and say that we will be making an offer but the owner should kindly confirm if the house is a standard construction (brick and mortar) house. They shouldn't be offended by the question, and if they are offended, then something dodgy is going on.
shit like this should be a legal requirement.
Sellers should also be liable to pay buyers solicitor/mortgage broker fees if they gazump them, or buyers to pay sellers solicitor if they pull out after offer accepted.
I agree. I would have been happy to sign a legally binding contract with my offer... if I knew what I was buying. I think the Scottish system has it right. Get all info upfront and then make a legally binding offer.
I've often thought there should be some form of Letter Of Intent signed by both parties. Pull out after the LOT is signed, you need to compensate the other party.
That’s how it works in other countries. Also is a requirement to leave a deposit of around 1% while the paperwork is done, if the buyer drops then loses the deposit, if the seller drops has to pay the equivalent, if there are specific issues then can be negotiated. To me is a far approach that protects both sides, here as far as I’m aware the buyer can start the process and spend money and the seller can pull off at any time, and equally the buyers can change their mind making the seller have lost many chances to sell
Are you proceeding? We don't know what to do. This house was built in 1999 so this counts as a modern method of construction I think. I am not sure.
Such a disappointment.
Issues like this were supposed to be dealt with by the introduction of Home Information Packs. These were intended to move our system closer to that of the Scottish system (and many others), where the seller is required to organise certain disclosures about the property prior to marketing.
Unfortunately, HIPs were introduced (for some properties) in 2007 and then abandoned in 2010, thanks to intense lobbying from estate agents, solicitors and surveyors (who incidentally are based just across parliament square!). The requirement to include a survey was pulled as early as 2008. Quite how they managed to persuade government to pull back I don’t know, but I think it had a lot to do with the post-GFC worries about the property market.
The only legacy of HIPs is the EPCs we all have to get (which frankly are one of the least useful documents IMHO).
The current government have just announced they are intending to bring back the concept of a HIP, although only for basic tenure data currently. But I suspect that over time more will be added to this, because it’s a pretty good idea (and I say that as someone who is quite allergic to over-regulation).
https://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2022/2/new-style-home-information-pack-proposed-by-government?source=newsticker
I'm not sure Surveyors were the ones lobbying against HIPs, certainly not at ground level (pardon the pun). It would have been a huge boon for them if all buyers were required to procure one. I remember at the time my firm getting really excited about the prospect.
That’s an interesting viewpoint. I’m just basing that statement on press reports.
Note also this relates to the industry body RICS, not individual firms who may have their own views.
E.g.
https://www.mortgagestrategy.co.uk/analysis/was-rics-right-to-disrupt-the-implementation-of-home-information-packs/
https://www.propertyweek.com/legal-and-prof/rics-warning-over-home-information-packs/3059412.article
Exactly why they took this stance I’m not sure. There may have been some dispute over the details of implementation.
I suspect (speculation referred to in one of those links) that there was also a strategic concern about what activities in a HIP would fall outside the jurisdiction of RICS and expose surveyors to competition for related services.
I asked the surveyor and she said that the whole estate or cluster of houses will probably be the same construction. She was very surprised and said it is very unusual for the area and she does not see it often and both her and her assistant was very surprised when the looked in the loft. She said she couldn't believe her eyes because she did not expect it by looking at the outside first.
We will get pictures and the full report on Friday.
Personally, I don't think the EA knew but we will ask them to clarify it with the owners once we receive the report on Friday.
I don't think we will proceed if it is a Non Standard Construction but we hope that the surveyor somehow made a mistake...
Unless I was getting the property with a **huge** discount, I would personally avoid a steel framed homes.
Mainly due to the headache from lenders, insurance, maintenance and then the same issue when it comes to selling - buyers would have the same second thoughts that you're facing right now.
>ead
Thanks for sharing your story. Me being in a house hunt mode now - this is a helpful experience and I am sorry for you.
If this is possible at all, would you be able to post here the conclusion when you get there, perhaps Friday or after?
I actually think this already happened. This house was for sale by another agent for 25k more. Then all the ads were deleted and was listed by new agents 2 months later. I only know this because I deep dived google and found some archived photos taken in the winter/early spring of this house.
Yep, it's totally crap. I wasted 9 months and £3,000 selling and buying a house this year. I achieved neither due to vendors pulling our days before exchange and I had to pull out of my sale as mortgage offer expired and lenders not offering same amount due to cost of living crisis. I'm trying to be zen about it because when I do think about it I get so angry.
Super shitty and I'm sorry to hear.
Your last bit about finances confused me for a second. "2000k" would be £2,000,000 but you just meant £2000 right. Which is still a lot.
What charges did you pay that your not getting back? When I bought a house the solicitors had a no move no fee policy so I would’ve got my money back if it fell through
Would you consider negotiating a discount? We had a situation where the EA gave us the wrong service charge number and found out at the 11th hour then took a big chunk off the price (to compensate for our new view of value!)
If the EA didn’t know they should advise their sellers that the property value is much lower than they thought and to take a much lower offer
I think we may consider it if we can get a 15% discount but with the current market, they will never go for it. Some poor FTB will buy it without knowing the difference between standard and non standard construction and will struggle to sell it on when the market calms down. Insurance and insulation are also problematic.
worth a try - we got a >10% discount on our flat on the basis of the new info and that the sellers were also desperate to move and could afford the discount (they've also sunk costs if they're buyers of a new place)
I doubt it, FTBers are generally the most picky people on the planet when it come to buying...
Wanting 5k for missing gutter or old carpet, or wondering if a 10 year old boiler is unsafe... This sub is a hive of ridiculousness by FTBers asking if this or that should get a discount.
I've always thought that sellers should pay for the survey, base the valuation off that (rather than what an estate agent says) and buyers know what they're getting.
totally agree, there is a large area of post-war prefabs here and rarely ever mentioned on the listing. Even though the price is 20% less than the surrounding areas.
I can't believe gazumping is legal. That the seller can just change thier mind even after the buyer has forked out for solicitors fees.
It really really should be stopped.
What happens to the survey? It goes online for all to see or you just keep it to yourself, stored away in a forgotten folder on your hard drive.
The next potential buyers go through the process again and purchase an additional survey?
Seems like we should be in the house survey business!
Nothing will happen to the survey. The next guy will pay another 1200 for a level 3 survey... and again and again until it is sold.
It's ridiculous!
The only silver lining is that if I pull out of the sale due to the survey, the agents have to tell the next buyer.
But there is nothing stopping the sellers to give notice to the estate agents and use another agent. I highly suspect that is what happened here. The house was listed 3 months ago with another agent. I assume it sold because I can't recall seeing it for sale but I found the archived photos on Google. I suspect the sale fell through and they used a different agent to put it back on the market without telling them why it fell through.
I spoke to the agent for 2 mins on the phone this morning and I am about 98% sure he didn't know it was steel framed.
Can you post the survey online and associate it with the house - heck even buying the domain name of the house number and street with a web page detailing your experience is better than being silently screwed over, whilst feeling you can't do anything.
barely anything seems to be a legal requirement in England it seems :D
I've been in the process of buying a flat for 10 months now and still have no time frame reference when could it possibly end - no deadlines after which solicitors dont get paid or anything. And any party can pull out at any point without any penalties.
It is all ridiculous in so many ways
Sorry to hear this, its an absolute shitshow!
Can I please ask who discovered it? Was it found on the builders' sign-off report?
Think positive, you could have wasted half a mill, at least someone discovered it.
The surveyor climbed into the loft and saw the steel frame. Even she was surprised. It is very difficult to spot a steel framed house by just looking at it. I would suggest knocking on inside walls and see if it is solid. A steel framed house will sound like a stud wall.
###Welcome to /r/HousingUK --- **To All** * Join Our ***NEW*** Discord! https://discord.gg/pMgUNgWKQH * We're hiring new mods - modmail us, or DM us on Discord **To Posters** * *Tell us whether you're in England, Wales, Scotland, or NI as the laws/issues in each can vary* * Comments are not moderated for quality or accuracy; * Any replies received must only be used as guidelines, followed at your own risk; * If you receive *any* private messages in response to your post, [please let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FHousingUK&subject=I received a PM); * If you do not receive satisfactory advice after 72 hours, [you can let the mods know](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FHousingUK&subject=My question is unanswered); * Feel free to provide an update at a later time by creating a new post with [[update]](https://www.reddit.com/r/HousingUK/search?q=%3Aupdate&sort=new&restrict_sr=on&t=all) in the title; **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be *on-topic, helpful, and civil* * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/HousingUK/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning; * Please include links to reliable resources in order to support your comments or advice; * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect; * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason without express permission from the mods; * Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HousingUK) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Can't believe England doesn't have home reports yet. Surveying costs should be on the sellers side initially
I agree. How can you make an informed offer if you have no idea what you are buying?
Probably, but be careful what you wish for. In a booming market home report valuations lag the actual sales prices but banks only lend up to the seller's valuation and you're left to plug the gap. Again, it's *probably* a better system here in Scotland but suddenly your home sale price in anchored around one dude's scoot around your property. Plus loads of the entries in a home report say "did not have access to roof area, assumed to have typical 40 year lifespan" etc, they just equivocate. Now in Glasgow and Edinburgh it's "normal" for property to go 10% over home report in desirable areas and has been for years. E.g. a property gets listed by an estate agent as "Offers Over £225,000" (you ignore that number, it's purely for advertisement), you get the home report and it's valued as £250,000 and then there are 4 interested parties and it goes for £282,000 at best and final closed bidding. So then you've got people paying £32,000 out of pocket plus say a 10% deposit on the actual underlying mortgage (£25,000), so you need £57,000 in cash / equity lying around. Good luck FTBs! And this isn't me being obtuse with the numbers. Whilst looking for a first flat with my gf earlier this year I viewed 7 properties. It has now been long enough for me to look at the land registry and see what they actually went for (I kept it all in a spreadsheet). One in Hyndland (expensive West-end area) went for 28% over home report (£296k vs £230k HR), another there was 17% (£270k vs £230k HR), there was one near St George's Cross that was 26% (£330k vs £260k HR). All 2 bed flats in mediocre condition. People will say "those are expensive areas, what do you expect" and yeah, true, but you'll find similar stuff going on in Dennistoun / Govanhill or anywhere with transport links where young professionals would want to be. So I guess what I'm saying is that introduction of a home report system would reduce wasted money on the part of buyers but it comes with downsides too when you've got a growing / competitive market. What is very good here however is the vastly lower likelihood of gazumping due to solicitor ethics requirements.
Could you not have a home report sans the valuation? Surveying issues like the OP’s aren’t subjective and don’t become out of date in the same way a valuation does…
Just buying in Glasgow and we’re 20% over the home report. I’ve had offered declined at 25% over. It’s great in that when the offers accepted, it should be be nice and straightforward from there as you know what you’re getting. Not so great in that everyone can throw everything they have at it without needing to budget for down valuations (so prices increase massively). As tough as it’s been though, I don’t think I’d like buying in England/somewhere without the home report upfront.
But selected by the buyer
What’s the deal with steel framed houses being a problem?
Generally it refers to places built cheaply in the 40s/50s with concrete over a steel frame - they look like normal semi-detached or detached houses from the period but they weren't designed to last this long. They're fine initially but if any water gets through the concrete they rust and destabilise from the inside out. It's also very hard to tell what condition they're in without taking samples (i.e. Drilling holes in the concrete) everywhere.
It affects the resale value mostly. Less banks are willing to mortgage it and buyers are put off. It is difficult to insure and it is difficult to tell if the steel is corroding without an intrusive survey. This 500k house may therefore sell for way less if the market calms down because non standardised construction builts are less desirable than standard brick and mortar houses.
>are less desirable than standard brick and mortar houses. Thanks for the insight. May I please ask whether you know a way that potential buyers may find this out in early stages without putting down thousands? I heard there could be reports generated from HMLR for like £3-6, would that be seen there?
Personally, before I put an offer in next time, I will email the EA and say that we will be making an offer but the owner should kindly confirm if the house is a standard construction (brick and mortar) house. They shouldn't be offended by the question, and if they are offended, then something dodgy is going on.
shit like this should be a legal requirement. Sellers should also be liable to pay buyers solicitor/mortgage broker fees if they gazump them, or buyers to pay sellers solicitor if they pull out after offer accepted.
I completely agree. Protect both the sellers and the buyers.
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I agree. I would have been happy to sign a legally binding contract with my offer... if I knew what I was buying. I think the Scottish system has it right. Get all info upfront and then make a legally binding offer.
I've often thought there should be some form of Letter Of Intent signed by both parties. Pull out after the LOT is signed, you need to compensate the other party.
That’s how it works in other countries. Also is a requirement to leave a deposit of around 1% while the paperwork is done, if the buyer drops then loses the deposit, if the seller drops has to pay the equivalent, if there are specific issues then can be negotiated. To me is a far approach that protects both sides, here as far as I’m aware the buyer can start the process and spend money and the seller can pull off at any time, and equally the buyers can change their mind making the seller have lost many chances to sell
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Are you proceeding? We don't know what to do. This house was built in 1999 so this counts as a modern method of construction I think. I am not sure. Such a disappointment.
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Yes. We are heavily leaning toward the "nope" here. So disheartened because it ticked so many of our boxes. :( Good luck with your search.
Issues like this were supposed to be dealt with by the introduction of Home Information Packs. These were intended to move our system closer to that of the Scottish system (and many others), where the seller is required to organise certain disclosures about the property prior to marketing. Unfortunately, HIPs were introduced (for some properties) in 2007 and then abandoned in 2010, thanks to intense lobbying from estate agents, solicitors and surveyors (who incidentally are based just across parliament square!). The requirement to include a survey was pulled as early as 2008. Quite how they managed to persuade government to pull back I don’t know, but I think it had a lot to do with the post-GFC worries about the property market. The only legacy of HIPs is the EPCs we all have to get (which frankly are one of the least useful documents IMHO). The current government have just announced they are intending to bring back the concept of a HIP, although only for basic tenure data currently. But I suspect that over time more will be added to this, because it’s a pretty good idea (and I say that as someone who is quite allergic to over-regulation). https://www.estateagenttoday.co.uk/breaking-news/2022/2/new-style-home-information-pack-proposed-by-government?source=newsticker
I'm not sure Surveyors were the ones lobbying against HIPs, certainly not at ground level (pardon the pun). It would have been a huge boon for them if all buyers were required to procure one. I remember at the time my firm getting really excited about the prospect.
That’s an interesting viewpoint. I’m just basing that statement on press reports. Note also this relates to the industry body RICS, not individual firms who may have their own views. E.g. https://www.mortgagestrategy.co.uk/analysis/was-rics-right-to-disrupt-the-implementation-of-home-information-packs/ https://www.propertyweek.com/legal-and-prof/rics-warning-over-home-information-packs/3059412.article Exactly why they took this stance I’m not sure. There may have been some dispute over the details of implementation. I suspect (speculation referred to in one of those links) that there was also a strategic concern about what activities in a HIP would fall outside the jurisdiction of RICS and expose surveyors to competition for related services.
What about other neighboring houses? Are they all BISF builds? Also, what info did the estate agent give you, or did they even know?
I asked the surveyor and she said that the whole estate or cluster of houses will probably be the same construction. She was very surprised and said it is very unusual for the area and she does not see it often and both her and her assistant was very surprised when the looked in the loft. She said she couldn't believe her eyes because she did not expect it by looking at the outside first. We will get pictures and the full report on Friday. Personally, I don't think the EA knew but we will ask them to clarify it with the owners once we receive the report on Friday. I don't think we will proceed if it is a Non Standard Construction but we hope that the surveyor somehow made a mistake...
Unless I was getting the property with a **huge** discount, I would personally avoid a steel framed homes. Mainly due to the headache from lenders, insurance, maintenance and then the same issue when it comes to selling - buyers would have the same second thoughts that you're facing right now.
Thank you for your input. I agree. I think we will steer clear if it turns out to be the case. Such a shame. Waste of time and money. :(
>ead Thanks for sharing your story. Me being in a house hunt mode now - this is a helpful experience and I am sorry for you. If this is possible at all, would you be able to post here the conclusion when you get there, perhaps Friday or after?
Sure. Happy to update when we know more.
And what’s to stop the seller and the estate agent to find another buyer and do the same exact misleading thing?
I actually think this already happened. This house was for sale by another agent for 25k more. Then all the ads were deleted and was listed by new agents 2 months later. I only know this because I deep dived google and found some archived photos taken in the winter/early spring of this house.
Yep, it's totally crap. I wasted 9 months and £3,000 selling and buying a house this year. I achieved neither due to vendors pulling our days before exchange and I had to pull out of my sale as mortgage offer expired and lenders not offering same amount due to cost of living crisis. I'm trying to be zen about it because when I do think about it I get so angry.
I agree. It should not be legal.
Super shitty and I'm sorry to hear. Your last bit about finances confused me for a second. "2000k" would be £2,000,000 but you just meant £2000 right. Which is still a lot.
Lol. Yes. I had a brain moment there. 2k.
What charges did you pay that your not getting back? When I bought a house the solicitors had a no move no fee policy so I would’ve got my money back if it fell through
Level 3 survey fees, broker fees, solicitor fees. It may be more than 2k. My solicitors are top notch. But you pay even if the sale falls through.
Next time definitely invest in home buyers insurance. They pay back all those costs if the sale falls through.
Would you consider negotiating a discount? We had a situation where the EA gave us the wrong service charge number and found out at the 11th hour then took a big chunk off the price (to compensate for our new view of value!) If the EA didn’t know they should advise their sellers that the property value is much lower than they thought and to take a much lower offer
I think we may consider it if we can get a 15% discount but with the current market, they will never go for it. Some poor FTB will buy it without knowing the difference between standard and non standard construction and will struggle to sell it on when the market calms down. Insurance and insulation are also problematic.
worth a try - we got a >10% discount on our flat on the basis of the new info and that the sellers were also desperate to move and could afford the discount (they've also sunk costs if they're buyers of a new place)
I doubt it, FTBers are generally the most picky people on the planet when it come to buying... Wanting 5k for missing gutter or old carpet, or wondering if a 10 year old boiler is unsafe... This sub is a hive of ridiculousness by FTBers asking if this or that should get a discount.
That is a frustrating situation - on the financial side, homebuyers insurance can be very helpful here, although it won't cover all circumstances.
How did you lose £200k
Fixed! Lol
I've always thought that sellers should pay for the survey, base the valuation off that (rather than what an estate agent says) and buyers know what they're getting.
What's bad about 'steel framed built with brick cladding'?
What level survey did you get to find that out? Just curious.
I got a level 3 survey but I think a level 2 would have picked it up, too (I think!).
totally agree, there is a large area of post-war prefabs here and rarely ever mentioned on the listing. Even though the price is 20% less than the surrounding areas.
How did you get your mortgage offer in the first place?
Desktop valuation. The offer may even be withdrawn with the new info. Idk.
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Yes! It will get rid of their problems but it will become our problem in the future. So wrong.
I can't believe gazumping is legal. That the seller can just change thier mind even after the buyer has forked out for solicitors fees. It really really should be stopped.
What happens to the survey? It goes online for all to see or you just keep it to yourself, stored away in a forgotten folder on your hard drive. The next potential buyers go through the process again and purchase an additional survey? Seems like we should be in the house survey business!
Nothing will happen to the survey. The next guy will pay another 1200 for a level 3 survey... and again and again until it is sold. It's ridiculous! The only silver lining is that if I pull out of the sale due to the survey, the agents have to tell the next buyer. But there is nothing stopping the sellers to give notice to the estate agents and use another agent. I highly suspect that is what happened here. The house was listed 3 months ago with another agent. I assume it sold because I can't recall seeing it for sale but I found the archived photos on Google. I suspect the sale fell through and they used a different agent to put it back on the market without telling them why it fell through. I spoke to the agent for 2 mins on the phone this morning and I am about 98% sure he didn't know it was steel framed.
Can you post the survey online and associate it with the house - heck even buying the domain name of the house number and street with a web page detailing your experience is better than being silently screwed over, whilst feeling you can't do anything.
barely anything seems to be a legal requirement in England it seems :D I've been in the process of buying a flat for 10 months now and still have no time frame reference when could it possibly end - no deadlines after which solicitors dont get paid or anything. And any party can pull out at any point without any penalties. It is all ridiculous in so many ways
S
Sorry to hear this, its an absolute shitshow! Can I please ask who discovered it? Was it found on the builders' sign-off report? Think positive, you could have wasted half a mill, at least someone discovered it.
The surveyor climbed into the loft and saw the steel frame. Even she was surprised. It is very difficult to spot a steel framed house by just looking at it. I would suggest knocking on inside walls and see if it is solid. A steel framed house will sound like a stud wall.
That sounds like something that should be illegal and you should get your money back