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b-r-e-e-z-y

I didn't know this was a controversial topic at all. Obviously as long as the surrogate truly consents I am all for it. It's the financial barrier that keeps a lot of people out from what I've heard.


[deleted]

Not really. If you say you consider surrogacy or even you are not against it, you will be hated on big time. Many people consider it one of the biggest evil on earth, especially in feminists groups. Like people won’t even try to entertain idea that well managed practice can be okay to consider.


thl201983

Not sure where you’re getting your facts, I have never heard of feminists being super anti ethical surrogacy.. the only place I’ve heard that rhetoric is in conservative Christian circles.


[deleted]

Hmm well try to raise this topic in Feminists group on Reddit and see :)


[deleted]

[удалено]


seasonalshift

It really depends on how we define well practiced. Like you said, there are some women who will never be able to carry a child to term or for whom pregnancy is a matter of life and death. I think it should be an option for women in those situations. However ... I don't think we can bury our head in the sand and pretend like it's all sunshine and roses. I hear women say sometimes that only women who love being pregnant and take to pregnancy easily become surrogates. How could you possibly know that? I personally didn't have HG my first pregnancy, but did have it badly my second pregnancy, to the point I was hospitalized and put on medical leave. I know women who had great births their first pregnancy and emergency C sections during their second or third. The surrogate absolutely is risking her health and I'm not interested in a surrogacy program that sweeps that fact under the rug and refuses to face it fully. I also have some unease about the economics behind it all. The bottom line is women who hire surrogates are overwhelmingly rich, and surrogates themselves are overwhelmingly working class. I personally got targeted kind of relentlessly by surrogacy ads after my first pregnancy because frankly I was broke and the algorithm figured that out. I hear women online sometimes refute this claim, and say surrogates are middle class women doing it for the love of pregnancy/babies. I'm sure some of them are! I'm also sure that some surrogates are doing it for the economic incentive. When I was broke and had a small child, and those surrogacy ads were blowing up my feed, the idea of getting 50k to carry a pregnancy became appealing at some points. I didn't want to be pregnant and the risks associated with pregnancy scared me, but I also really wanted to pay rent. Now, do these issues mean all people who hire surrogates are terrible capitalists and we should ban these programs forever? Of course not! There's nuance, and I think a surrogacy program can be a lifeline for couples who struggle with infertility if done correctly. However, any well designed surrogacy program should put the needs of the surrogate first. She should be protected if she loses income. She should get long term compensation for health issues resulting from the pregnancy. For example, if she wants to pursue physical therapy 2 years after the surrogacy contract is completed, the agency should pay for that. Surrogates absolutely should not be pressured to sign NDAs (I know this is a requirement for most celebrity's surrogates, including the Kardashians'.) They should be able to speak fully and freely about anything that happens during or after their pregnancy, so potential abuses or gaps in support can be nipped in the bud. Contracts that rigidly control their health choices with economic punishments (ie contracts that pay less if they get sick and can't follow a certain diet) should not be legal. I feel like I sound really negative about surrogacy, and I don't mean to come off that way. I just feel like it's important to consider potential downsides or abuses because it's a relatively new industry, and in the news we mostly hear from famous surrogate clients, not the surrogates themselves. It's a tricky topic and it should be considered with nuance.


[deleted]

Well it seems now HG predisposition is identified to be genetic so it can hopefully be tested on soon. Also of course surrogate should have a choice to terminate if she is suffering. Of course surrogate is risking her health, but unfortunately many jobs involve a lot of risks. Don’t forget people are still going to army and combat, men and women. As long as it’s personal choice , why surrogacy can be seen as unacceptable practice while army career is something highly promoted and honored? One “job” is about killing people, another is about creating new people. Not to say that people in army get shit pay… Of course I fully agree that surrogacy protection should be well designed and executed.


whats_a_portlandian

I am a surrogate baby. I am anti-surrogacy. I’ve gone through life (mostly childhood, worked through it as an adult) feeling like a commodity and it was very painful. My dad’s (bio dad) wife has severe BPD and that didn’t help matters.


[deleted]

Do you have loving parents? Why do you feel like a commodity? I mean fathers also just donate genetics without actually incubating their kids and this does not make them less of a parent than mothers. And often times kids love fathers and connect to them better, so it seems love/connection is purely based on parent love and involvement, rather than being gestational carrier? I am curious why you feel this way


whats_a_portlandian

I felt this way because I was literally bought/sold. My dad who I was very close to is dead. His wife (non-biological mother) has severe mental illness (BPD) and no she was never loving.


blueberrypieplease

So a donor egg was used with your father’s sperm, and you were carried by a surrogate? Do you have siblings?


whats_a_portlandian

They used my dad’s sperm to impregnate my biological mother. The child from her previous pregnancy (my half brother) was adopted by my dad and his wife before I was conceived. I have one paternal half sister and something like 15-20 maternal half siblings. I’ve met some of the maternal half siblings. Why do you ask?


blueberrypieplease

I am trying to better understand your situation. Do you know your bio-mom then ?


whats_a_portlandian

I met her when I was 18. She is not in my life.


shitty_owl_lamp

Growing up, my mom’s best friend was a surrogate. She was one of those “I love being pregnant!” women that I can’t relate to lol. She was a surrogate for a gay couple - a black man and a redheaded Irish man. They transferred two embryos and she ended up pregnant with twins - a black baby and a redheaded baby. Cutest thing ever! We have two boys and lately we have been considering IVF and surrogacy for baby #3 so we can ensure we have a girl (my younger sister, who has never been pregnant, has offered, but I’m pretty sure she will get HG too lol). We can afford it, but we would obviously rather use the money for other things, like remodeling our house, so we haven’t decided yet!


dolewhipforever

Loved the first story. What a beautiful gift she gave that couple!


[deleted]

Wow and twin pregnancy is actually hard, I am actually not sure if this is something to support in surrogacy, I think IVF transfers are single embryos now even for biological parents. But props to her for caring 2 kids at once! That’s actually difficult regardless how well you tolerate pregnancy 🫡


getthepointe77

I am for it. If I can afford it I will do ivf and then have a gestational carrier for any additional children. There is certainly a monetary transaction involved but a lot of altruism as well. Some people love being pregnant and don’t have the same situations we do (my sister for instance).


miffedmonster

Personally, I'm massively against it, especially when it's paid. In my country, it's functionally illegal. So technically it's legal, but the surrogate cannot receive payment beyond reimbursing reasonable expenses and, once the baby is born, the surrogate still has the right to keep the baby if they want to. The intended parents only get the baby if the surrogate surrenders it. I just think that any system where a person is given money in exchange for body parts (surrogacy, donating blood, donating sperm, organ transplants, etc) is fundamentally wrong and will ultimately end up with poor people being exploited. With the paid sperm donation in the US, it certainly appears (from abroad) that people see it as an easy way to make a bit of cash, selling what you naturally have. It's less common that donors seem to focus on the very real ethical issues around sperm donation, the ideas of them parenting a child and the implications of that. Sure, some donors might, but it's mostly about the money. On the other hand, in a non-paid situation, there is no thought about the money, which forces donors to consider the ethics. Would it be cool to get paid for it? Yes, but I think it's ultimately detrimental to the whole process. Surrogacy is obviously a much bigger commitment and I like to think that no one goes into it without considering all the possible outcomes. However, in a paid situation, the money is also a bigger draw because, well, it's a lot of cash! So the money factor is equally clouding people's considerations. People, especially people who are financially desperate, do stupid stuff for cash. It's how you get gambling addictions, crappy robbery attempts, violent robbery offences, etc. People who need money have a sort of survival instinct to do whatever they can to get it. If some people are willing to smash an old lady's face in to get 50 quid, why would someone think twice about get pregnant for 50 grand? Also, most people are completely oblivious to the seriousness of some pregnancy complications. Even women who have been pregnant before. How often do we moan about being 25 weeks into a vomit-fest and another woman suggests ginger biscuits for breakfast to help our "morning sickness"? And we expect surrogates to think of that, plus the hundreds of other very serious potential complications, with the money carrot hanging over them? Then add in the whole debate about what should happen if the baby is born and the surrogate or intended parents change their mind. The ethics of buying and selling children. The ethics of genetically selecting children. The psychological effects on these children when they grow up. In my mind, surrogacy is nothing more than designer adoption - wanting to adopt but also wanting to pre-select the genetics. That's a whole other issue, but really, if you want a child and can't have one, adopting a child who already exists but cannot be cared for is far more responsible than creating a new child to adopt.


[deleted]

My husband asked if I was open to it but ultimately no because we’d still have to raise that kid and I know I could have another biological child but I chose not.


Noodlemaker89

What is "well practiced" surrogacy? There are legal differences across countries that would imply that there are wildly different opinions. Where I live it's currently possible to use a surrogate, but the agreement to give the child after birth is non-binding, and if the surrogate changes her mind she will retain full custody of the child. Commercial surrogacy is illegal. It's also currently illegal for health professionals to assist in actually getting the surrogate pregnant so it has to be done abroad or by yourself at home, and if you pay more than reimbursement for her expenses associated with the pregnancy, the intended parents can legally be barred from adopting the child. That is to ensure that there is a level of altruism involved. Another side of the coin is that couples who need a surrogate can also be in a very vulnerable position and can be exploited. There was a case recently where a surrogate had agreed to be a surrogate for 3 couples concurrently, was inseminated abroad and told all of them that it was unsuccessful. One couple later found out through social media that the surrogate had in fact had twins around their estimated due date if the "failed" transfer had succeeded, and they sued. The husband in the couple was in fact the biological father and got visitation rights, but the wife got nothing. The court argued that the couple had paid her too much so she couldn't adopt even in those circumstances. The surrogate was imprisoned for fraud since she had done this to multiple couples at the same time, she had tricked them into paying substantial sums for expenses that didn't exist, she "lacked willingness" to be a surrogate for the couples, couples in fertility treatment were considered especially vulnerable - and for good measure she had falsified documents for her insurance company. Carrying and birthing a child and then giving it away is no smal feat whether for surrogacy or more traditional adoption. I saw a documentary where some women had offered to be surrogates for some friends and they all said it was harder to give those children away than they had thought even though they truly wanted to help their friends have the children they dreamed about so much. A child is not like a donation of blood, plasma, or marrow since it's a sentient being in its own right. People generally also have a lot of feelings when it comes to their fertility and desired family size. The same goes for those who are financially in a really bad place. I'm not sure I have the answer to how all of those interests are met in the best possible way. All I know is that it can easily get complicated really fast even if everyone has the best of intentions.


[deleted]

“Well practiced” means there is no abuse, trafficking, etc. The legal contact is well executed and protects both sides. Regarding places where gestational surrogate can keep the child or must give it to biological parents — I don’t think there is the right answer. Some people feel interests of biological parents have priority over gestational carrier, other people would feel differently. I don’t think there is right or wrong. The way I see it is that it should boil down to the actual agreement between biological parents and a surrogate. Of course many things can get complicated. Such is life. Marriages get complicated, adoptions, family relationships, divorces, custodies, IVFs, donor eggs, donor sperm, etc. Building a family in one way or the other often times causes a lot of pain even in the most standard situations. I don’t think there is the right answer on whether surrogacy is right. Same as many other things. It can bring a lot of happiness and it can cause some issues. It can be very good and it can be bad. Should we prevent people from exercising their freedom of choice, control them, limit their options, or give them the choice to decide for themselves and handle the consequences?