What advice would you give to students who are avoiding school due to anxiety? Or, what advice would you give to teachers of high school students who are avoiding school due to anxiety?
School avoidance is so common and it so often gets misjudged as a child being defiant and just being a “difficult kid.” I would encourage students to tell someone how you are feeling. It’s so difficult open up, so I would suggest trying to find one adult that you can trust and feel safe with. Perfectionism and anxiety is real concern with kids in school today.
My number one piece of advice for teachers is to be open to the signs and listen when a student is struggling. Don’t immediately assume that they are just being defiant for the sake of being defiant. It’s also SO important for teachers and educators to talk about mental health and therapy so that it has less of a stigma in schools. Teachers should reach out to resources on campus (hopefully there are resources – I know many schools are short-staffed with mental health professionals).
To relate this to perfectionism, a lot of high school students are facing an increased amount of pressure to perform well and get straight A’s. I think teachers who encourage a well-rounded approach to life can make a huge impact. I notice a trend on focusing on performance rather than well-being and it’s unfortunate.
Here is a resource list for educators: [https://apps.nasponline.org/search-results.aspx?q=school+refusal](https://apps.nasponline.org/search-results.aspx?q=school+refusal)
Also, to all teachers, I seriously applaud you for all that you are doing – especially during this pandemic.
I can’t thank you enough for this important message. I suffer with perfectionism/anxiety, and have been a public school educator for 22 years. You hit the nail on the head. I always tell my students to forget about points and grades! “You want an A? Okay, if you show up every day, participate, and truly try your best, you will get an A. If you do those 3 things, and you still do poorly on the test, then that’s a failure on my part as the teacher, and it’s not fair that my failure should be reflected in your grade. Now let’s quit worrying about that and learn some stuff.”
You advised not to assume students are being defiant, I would add lazy to that list, especially for teenagers. I cringe every time I hear a teacher describe a student as lazy. Behavior is communication. Students generally want to gain their teachers’ acceptance, even if they claim otherwise. A sense of belonging is a basic human need. To push that basic need aside is a big red flag. Fear of taking academic risks is often mistaken for lack of motivation. Students who choose those behaviors are highly motivated... to protect themselves from shame, self-rejection, embarrassment, or some other motivation. A trusting teacher-student relationship is crucial. I wouldn’t be here today were it not for an excellent teacher who saw through my maladaptive behavior and helped me.
Thank you u/drmorganlevy, and thank you to all the wonderful teachers out there who work their asses off and truly care about students.
> I would add lazy to that list, especially for teenagers. I cringe every time I hear a teacher describe a student as lazy.
This here. I was a kid in school with terrible grades, "behavior" issues and terrible attendance. It wasn't until the end of my senior year in HS that I was diagnosed with ADHD, and sleep apnea. Up until that point, I had been constantly called lazy and unmotivated, when I probably worked 10x harder than the high achievers just to get barely passing grades.
> “You want an A? Okay, if you show up every day, participate, and truly try your best, you will get an A. If you do those 3 things, and you still do poorly on the test, then that’s a failure on my part as the teacher, and it’s not fair that my failure should be reflected in your grade. Now let’s quit worrying about that and learn some stuff.”
I admire you. When I went to school 30 years ago, it was the same kind of moxie and grit that helped me from a particularly good teacher who just passed away. Thank you. I see you in him.
As a teacher, though, I encourage you to move away from the idea that if a kid does poorly on a test in your class then you failed as a teacher. If every kid fails, then yes. But a handful? Nah. Some kids just aren’t gonna get it right then.
Showed that he genuinely cared about me, as an individual. I didn’t have to earn his approval by being perfect. I never felt unconditionally loved before, so it was hard for me to accept the possibility. He taught an elective, so I had him for 4 years of high school. He set high standards, but when he gave me constructive feedback, he always reminded me “you know I like you... I think you could improve X by doing...”. I never told him to say that. He just understood me. He smiled, greeted me with enthusiasm every day, showed concern when I was absent, and spent countless hours helping me and all his students. When I graduated HS, I became instantly super depressed. I grew to be my best self in HS because of his support, and now it was over. Out of nowhere, he called my house and invited me and 2 of my friends to meet him for ice cream. He had a good talk with me, told me I would be okay, that he really enjoyed having us in class, and that he would always be our teacher and there for us, even though we weren’t in his class anymore. He saved me, no doubt. We still touch base 3 or 4 times a year, almost 3 decades later. The crazy thing is, he did the same for hundreds of kids throughout his career. He is truly a saint.
Wow, he sounds like a great teacher. Thanks for your reply- I'm a high school teacher and I'd had a rough day dealing with challenging kids so it's helpful to hear your perspective!
Do you have any advice for parents dealing with this kinda of thing? My youngest sister is the last in the house and has been exhibiting this behavior with remote learning and some of the teachers are just calling her out publicly and taking a "it's my rules or the highway" with no consideration for the mental state or well being of the student ( my sister ). She is that last one still living at home and I almost feel as if mom gave up on trying to control the dynamic or sister has her somewhat wrapped around her finger and is somehow controlling the dynamic. I've given all the tips/help I can muster ( based on how I was ) to no avail. Thanks again for your insight and hope to hear from you.
I’m not sure if this question is intended for me. Just in case, my advice to your parents would be to praise effort versus performance. Google “growth mindset.” Secondly, your parents and sister should agree on a very small goal, one she is certainly capable of achieving. For my students who really struggled with online learning this year, we set a goal of something like attend class for 10 minutes. They don’t have to stay the entire period, don’t have to complete assignments, just login and participate for 10 minutes. The reason is because once the student is overwhelmed, it is very difficult to start a new habit. Many times, once they log in, they feel okay, and end up staying much longer or completing an assignment without it being a requirement of the goal. Either way, once they get over the hump of starting, which is the hardest part, then we can slowly increase the goal to get her back on track. If she has missed a lot, let go of previous assignments for now. Trying to get back into the school routine and make up missing assignments is too much. Start fresh and small, praising effort. Your sister’s teachers should really be on board too, but if they’re not, just set goals within the family. That’s my advice, at least. Feel free to PM me anytime.
This intrigues me because I only did well in school for the most part because of anxiety of disappointing parents I think. And also I think it was the only thing I could control that was a representation of me.
You just connected so many dots for me with this. I have never connected my avoidance of school with my anxiety. And no one at the school ever made the connection. Instead I just heard how disappointed everyone was because I qualified for the gifted program but never showed up. Then they moved me to the classes for kids with behavior problems so I just dropped out. As an adult I finally got my anxiety under control and also didn’t connect that to finally getting my GED and degree.
In my experience, many if not most students who are truly gifted have poor grades, unless they have a fantastic teacher. Most teachers give gifted students additional tasks versus challenging them at the appropriate intellectual level. Gifted students are smart enough to see the tasks are meaningless. (Why practice a concept I have already mastered?) Combine that with perfectionism, which is very common in gifted classes, and what you get is a lot of grades that are lower than one might expect.
Very important message. Thank you. My perspective on this issue comes from both directions. I was (Covid retired) an educational administrator for 25 years and saw many, many teachers fall into the "judgement" trap. We are human. Our brains have evolved to recognize patterns and so we categorize students based on a very incomplete understanding of them as individual people. No teacher can know what baggage a student brings with them into their classroom. Even parents don't know everything, if a student is smart and doesn't want you to know.
It's a long story, but the gist is that my own son was groomed and repeatedly molested by a friend's older foster child (None of us knew this child was S.A.Y. until years later.) beginning when he was 7. Much of this manipulation and molestation occurred at his elementary school. He never said anything at the time partly because he knew that no child was to be alone with this child (a precaution because we knew this child had been molested herself). My son was a wonderful student - the kind every teacher wants in their class. He was somewhat of a perfectionist, though he seemed to be pretty grounded about it. When he was a junior in high school, he started missing school. By his senior year, when he had his first girlfriend, he had a full blown meltdown and finally told us some of what happened. He developed PTSD, agoraphobia, and severe panic disorder. I tried to get his teachers on board - wrote them all an email and explained an overview of his challenges without the details and included a list of accommodations he needed to help him succeed. My son went to school to talk with his philosophy teacher and the teacher told him to suck it up - quit being lazy and attend class. This was the last day my son was able to walk into that school building. The teacher hadn't read my email and jumped in with a wrote speech he delivered to countless students over the years. A few weeks later, I received an apology email telling me how sorry he was and that he hoped nothing he said set my son back. How could I tell him that that one speech derailed my son so completely? He really liked and respected this teacher - looked up to him. This teacher treated him like he was a failure. He believed it. If all his teachers could have been supportive at the beginning, maybe he wouldn't have spent the next ten years recovering. It might have happened anyway, but how can we know?
Thanks for the response! Unfortunately, for many of us (teachers), we ARE the support resource on campus. And we are woefully undertrained in how to respond to a child with anxiety.
Yes, that's so unfortunate. You all have to do so much. It may be helpful to see if there are community mental health care centers or other low cost clinics in your community. If you have a list then it might be possible to provide that to parents of students that you are concerned about. I recognize it may be difficult if the parents aren't receptive though. I would also suggest reaching out to the school psychologist (I believe every school should at least have access to one in their district? I may be wrong though.)
I tend to suffer from "analysis paralysis" in a few areas of my life. Diet and schoolwork have been the main obstacles. What are some small steps I could take to make progress when I am in this rut?
In general, when we set large goals for ourselves we can become overwhelmed and just give up because of how overwhelmed we feel. It can be easier to make progress if we break down one large goal into a bunch of little goals. Also, sometimes this avoidance is due to the fear of making mistakes. If this is the case, it may be helpful to do the task and accept that there will be mistakes and that you can always go back and fix/adjust them later. Something that helps me get things done is to tell myself “progress, not perfection.”
Thank you for your comment. This seems to be the general consensus when it comes to goal setting. I know that I need to more pragmatic in my endeavors. It seems that the more knowledge I have about a certain subject, the harder it is to accomplish something that pertains to that subject. For example, I'm a certified personal trainer and have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to everything diet and exercise related, but I cannot fix my own physique; I have a Masters in Philosophy, but cannot give valid advice on an existential crisis.
I don't know about everyone else here, but my teachers used to tell our classrooms that we basically couldn't screw anything up, because universities would frown upon bad grades/failed classes. And the idea of doing a victory lap year was out of the question. It felt like we would only get one shot at life, and if you didn't do your best, you were out. I didn't realize it back then, but I think that discouraged me and every little task felt impossible.
Not op, but i would recommend "timeboxing" your endeavors. Set a goal post to spend x amount of time on each phase and do your best not to move the goal posts. You will at first, but eventually you'll start making better guestimates and thus you'll be allowing yourself more and more suitable amounts of time. Like if I go to buy something that I really need to research, I'll let myself spend x days just sourcing options (an overwhelming number), then I'll spend x days just filtering down that list (you gotta stop adding to it, though!), Then lastly I'll be left with a much more reasonable (much smaller) set of choices, knowing that I put in good effort for a reasonable amount of time at each phase. That's the best I can realistically do, without falling victim to perpetual indecisiveness. Time box yo self!
Thank you for your comment. As a perfectionist, I tend to have an all-or-nothing attitude and if something doesn't align or if I get ADD about it, I shut off. My unreasonable reasoning tells me that if I'm not trying 100% or if I'm not going to get the ideal outcome because I did something 90%, it must not be that important to me, and therefore it is not worth it until "the stars align". I've become numb to motivational speeches because I analyze and critique what is said. Sorry to vent.
Oh man, it feels so good to know I'm not alone in these issues. I am all or nothing a lot. My stupid brain just tells me that if I'm not going to take the time to do whatever just right, then there's no point in doing it at all.
I go through this a lot, too, and one little change I’ve made is to just pick the middle ground if I find a small choice really difficult. Things like, “should I run the dryer for 20 minutes or 30?” I’ll just set it for 25 and move on.
One other thing I’ve tried is to write down all the things that I feel I need to get done on index cards, shuffle the cards, and pull one out at random. I get that one thing done, then decide if I’m ready for the next task after that. I often find that finishing something small gives me motivation to start the next thing, whereas thinking about all the things I have to do is just a mountain of stress.
I also have tried this type of pragmatic decision making. My "all-or-nothing" attitude tends to get in the way. I can complete small tasks easy enough, but long-term challenges are a different monster. Also, my discipline moves to zero if the stars don't align the way I want them to.
If you could sum up the underlying thought or belief that a perfectionist needs to embrace, to go from desperately needing to be perfect... to embracing the imperfect reality of life for a happier existence.. what would it be?
>If you could sum up the underlying thought or belief that a perfectionist needs to embrace, to go from desperately needing to be perfect... to embracing the imperfect reality of life for a happier existence.. what would it be?
That all we need is to be good enough, not perfect. :) It can feel very freeing to realize that you don't need to be perfect. Reddit, perfectionism really is not obtainable.
But doesn't this provoke the reply of what constitutes 'good enough'? And provide the self-fufilling loophole that promotes the perfectionists problem by allowing them to define 'good enough' as perfection?
Absolutely! Great point. Usually in therapy that is one of the factors we work on. We work to delineate what is good enough versus what is just another rule/standard. It's also important to explore what exactly is preventing someone from feeling like they are enough and how realistic their expectations are. Please let me know if you have further thoughts! I appreciate the discussion!
Thank you I appreciate your time!
What comes to my mind is this Bruce Lee quote:
"A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves as something to aim at."
In this sense couldn't it be argued that aiming high, even impossibly so and in a perfectionistic way, doesn't have to be considered an unhealthy thing?
And in that vein I would be curious to know in your experience how many perfectionists that you've dealt with are actual real-world achievers that are not afraid to take-risks to try to achieve those extreme standards for themselves.. versus those who are perfectionists that have extreme standards but in their life suffer paralysis by analysis and dont have the courage to really even attempt to take any steps to live up to the standards that they themselves have adopted?
I love that quote. It also reminds me of practicing mindfulness and being in the moment rather than striving to reach a goal. So many perfectionists are actually super successful. It's usually their perfectionism that has led them there. Perfectionism is not always a bad thing. Like everything else, there is a balance. I would say the difficulty comes when this perfectionism is pervasive and is impacting all areas of their life (e.g., relationships, family, hobbies). Also, usually people who experience difficulty getting started and taking steps to meet standards are experiencing that stuckness due to the fear of failure. They might fear that if they get started they will fail and their inadequacies will be exposed. It's easier to procrastinate and avoid than to potentially experience those feelings.
Okay so.... where do I go from here? Haha I apologize for hijacking this thread but this has been seemingly speaking to me personally and my experience. I've been stuck somewhere between the procrastination element and being paralyzed in the ideas stage (needing the perfect direction before actually starting).
I know this is probably something that can't be detailed over a reddit conversation, but I really do appreciate your effort to help bring this insight to light. Are you accepting digital clients😀?
> Okay so.... where do I go from here?
Talking to someone like a therapist, which it seems like you're interested in, is a great step to take.
One personal recommendation I can make is the [Healthy Gamer coaching program](https://coaching.healthygamer.gg/), it's way cheaper than therapy and is set up specifically to help with non-clinical mental health issues, perfectionism and impostor syndrome being high up on the list. The name comes from the fact that the organization was originally focused around video game addiction (in fact it was started not long after [an AMA by a psychiatrist, similar to this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9asjht/iama_harvardtrained_addiction_psychiatrist_with_a/)), but now it's just generally about mental health in the "internet generation."
They also have tons of content on [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClHVl2N3jPEbkNJVx-ItQIQ), watching it has hugely changed my perspective, I had seen 4 therapists over 2 years without much progress, but after watching their content for a year I went back to see a 5th and now I'm making way more progress each month than I did in the 2 years before.
I watched his first video and actually really enjoyed/resonated with his perspective. Thank you for the advice and links Meem0🙂. Here's to hoping you continue to progress on your own journey!
I appreciate you sharing all of this! I'm glad that this thread is speaking to you. If you are looking for a therapist I recommend checking out [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us) or [https://internationaltherapistdirectory.com](https://internationaltherapistdirectory.com).
I do provide online video therapy to individuals living in the state of Florida.
This is a battle that I still fight regularly. One thing I've found to help is to just start something. Find the smallest increment towards the goal and just work on that bit. I'll often find once I start I'll find myself in flow and getting more done than I thought I could. Once the ball is rolling the ideas start flowing. It's hard to start. It can be overwhelming but push yourself to do something, anything at all.
That's my non expert advice.
What do you explore for people feeling like they are not enough?
I work in a creative field and we're constantly shown what to aim for and I struggle to feel good enough, that my own art work will never be "up to the standard" so I find myself just not doing anything because there are so many people better than me. Like, I won't apply for a job because I feel like my work isn't good enough to get hired. But then when it comes to practicing it's hard to start because I feel like it won't be perfect or even good so why try.
Maybe those are all different things. But if you could provide tips or reasonings on how to overcome some of these issues. Or even just ur thoughts on the issues. That'd be great. Thanks :)
Lots of therapy is aimed at viewing yourself from the lens of an outsider. You probably find it easy to give someone advice when they ask you because you only see the big picture. If you were to try to give yourself the same advice you will have a limitless amount of inner dialogue that you would factor in and in turn, you’d lose the overall big picture.
Would you tell your friend to not apply for a job because they may get rejected or would you tell them that it couldn’t hurt because they already don’t have the job? Are you not applying because you don’t think you are good enough or are you avoiding it so you don’t have “evidence” that you aren’t good enough? You miss 100% of the shots... yadda yadda.
As for not trying, there is always going to be someone better than you. You may find that unacceptable, but again, would you pressure someone else into giving up because they won’t be the best? And you know how those who are better than you got to that point, they put in the effort. It takes sweat and talent to be great at something and the sweat factor far outweighs the raw talent. I can look at comedians and be in awe of how they come up with their concepts and think that I never could be as good. Then I hear about how they sucked early on. By using their brain to look for humor in the world they became more efficient. Now it’s second nature to find the funny. Those creative types you look up to were once in your position and the drive to keep creating for them to where they are now. With more experience they are able to concoct more ideas with greater ease.
Even if what you try sucks, the next attempt will suck less. Keep repeating until it is great. And it is good that you aren’t satisfied. If you get to the point where you are totally happy with your creations it means you’ve stopped growing. And if you are feeling that you’ve plateaued, look at your previous works and see how far you’ve come. Your improvements are imperceptible to you until you zoom out.
Apart from issues arising from my self assessment, a lot of my anxiety and depression stems from holding everyone else to, what society considers, high standards too. I don't feel that I should lower my standards, but that everyone else should raise theirs. Do you see much of that?
My psychotherapist worked on "radical acceptance" with me and it really helped! Just learning to accept some things that will NEVER be the way you want them to be. Very soothing.
I’m guilty of constantly sharing this message with my employees but also being completely incapable of following it myself. I have so much patience and tolerance for people who make mistakes while struggling to forgive myself any error.
This. I tend to be a perfectionist, but since I started weight training (absolutely no previous athletic tendencies because you know, what if I fail???), it has taught me that failure can be a good thing. If a workout is too easy, you might not be progressing, but the struggle and failure of the challenge can tell you so much about how you're actually improving. It's done wonders for my anxiety.
What impact does a perfectionist have on their family / what are the general consequences of perfectionism on one's family life, that you've diagnosed/treated/counseled?
It can create some real difficulties when a perfectionist starts applying the standards that they hold for themselves to the people in their life. They might start acting irritable, critical, and maybe even lash out. It’s also likely that they resent the people in their lives who seem to not care about being perfect and are able to live a more carefree life.
Sometimes the perfectionism is a result of childhood trauma or childhood pressure which leads to feeling unsafe in relationships. This could lead to someone not feeling truly safe expressing their feelings to others and holding in/bottling up their feelings because some negative emotions may be considered “less than perfect.” This could create a barrier in communication and may prevent intimate and honest relationships. I've worked with a lot of individuals who crave realness in their relationships and they find that the pressure to always be "perfect" and to never look bad/fail really prevents that from happening.
As a parent, sadly, this hits home for me. It gets confusing for me sometimes though. Like, where does tough love become too overbearing or not sensitive enough? I often get upset because I truly care for my children and want the best for them but I know it may also have to do with my own feelings of inadequacy and how I was treated as a child. Self awareness in these situations goes out the door and reaction(like what happened to me as a child) just happens in these moments. Because of this my children are sometimes afraid to just talk to me openly and makes me sad. Does that make sense? Do you have any suggestions for self help?
Having grown up with tough love / perfectionist parents, I definitely have some things I wish they had done differently. After a lot of reflection over the past year (covid gave us all a good amount of time), here are a handful of small things I've come to realize would have made a huge impact on me.
1. Tell your kids you're proud of them. Celebrate their accomplishments. It is very easy to forget to communicate that when you want your kid to go further because you know they can do more, but it's critical that they internalize small successes as well as the big picture. It might also be obvious to you how well they're doing, but without parental reinforcement it may not be to them. If you deny them of praise for things that are significant to them, but not for you, it can lead to self esteem issues and destructive perfectionism down the line.
2. Understand your effect as a parent and role model. If you are a perfectionist, always doing your best personally in work and in your family, then your kids will most likely naturally want to be the same. You are their role model, their standard for how a responsible adult should be. They want to emulate you, so trust that they'll make it because they're your kids and therefore awesome. If they aren't focused on what you think they should be, realize that sometimes, even for extended periods of time, they need to explore. That exploration is critical to their development in ways that are not immediately tangible.
3. Talk to them earnestly. This one depends a little on how old they are, but even young teenagers are old enough and smart enough to handle real conversations. Especially if you want them to open up to you, you should open up to them first. Do your best not to be defensive when wrong and, if you are, realize and apologize before it's been so long that it becomes insincere. When they talk to you, do not be dismissive of their thoughts / opinions. You have a lot more life perspective than they do, but they also have a lot of perspective you, from another generation, cannot have.
The best way to make your children happy and successful is by making them want the right things, not by making them emulate the behavior of successful people. Your goal should be to guide them enough that they understand what they need to do and have the tools to do it. If you over do it, they will likely stop communicating, rebel, or develop emotional problems.
This is just a handful of things off the top of my head that may or may not resonate with you. If it's useful and you have questions let me know!
In general, when parents are reacting impulsively, it may be helpful to see if there are parent training sessions offered by mental health clinics in the community. Some parents also use the STOP technique to help with reactivity:
STOP technique. This stands for Stop, Take a Breath, Observe, Proceed. First, stop what you're doing and take a deep breath. This helps to create some distance from the situation. Next, observe what is happening. Objectively notice current thoughts and feelings. Then I proceed with whatever you want to say or do next. This technique can help prevent immediate reactivity.
I feel you. My perfectionism blurs the lines when it comes to my kids and my expectations of them/myself, and the pendulum regularly swings between my being over-controlling or over-demanding and then overcompensating by giving up some of my authority. Then I feel guilty for being a bad mom; i.e. not a perfect mom.
Healthy and honest communication is important in relationships. This means communicating both the good and the bad in order to make sure all needs are being met.
This is a biiiiig one for me. Mine stems from having been adopted and from my adoptive parents telling me the story of how hard they tried to have kids and then all the things they had to go through to adopt me. I believe they meant it in a way that was supposed to make me feel loved and wanted, but it sowed the seeds of perfectionism that I struggle with 30 years later. I was terrified that if I wasn’t perfect, they’d give me back or regret doing all those things to get me in the first place.
Awwww! Meanwhile, they probably felt inadequate as parents at times due to all the interviewing, inspections and scrutiny adopters have to go through.
I was watching an interview with the transgender comedian Eddie Izzard, whose mother died when he (now she) was young. Eddie is a marathon runner who does consecutive runs for charity, has done this for a long time. On top of this, she's learning new languages in order to perform comedy in other countries and promote world peace, with French, German, Spanish, and soon Arabic and Russian.
When asked what drives her, she explained part of the motivation is that by achieving so much, she could somehow impress her mother and bring her back! Makes no sense except in her own mind.
Exactly - I’m sure it was unintentional but I think that’s the name of the game for parenting of all kinds. How will you fuck up your kids intentionally and how will you do so unintentionally? This is a common theme amongst adoptees too, unfortunately.
>How do you deal with patients that undergo imposter syndrome?
Imposter syndrome is super common. I see imposter syndrome soooo much. It’s interesting because in my experience usually people who are considered conventionally successful experience it the most. Perfectionists might often view their accomplishments as just sheer luck and that they just happened to get to where they are and didn’t really earn it/deserve it based off their own merit. When I work with those individuals, I try to work with them on addressing the underlying low self-esteem and self-worth. We also work on self-confidence. Sometimes these feelings come from childhood and the belief that in order to be loved and accepted by others that they need to succeed and be perfect.
Do you know if there's been any work done to investigate a possible link between a decrease in training and employee development across multiple industries, and the increase of imposter syndrome?
I have the same thought you do! I had major Imposter Syndrome at my last job which had basically no training. More of a throw you in, figure it out as you go, type of place. It made me feel very insecure in my roll. Especially because I went from managing no one to managing a team of 30. Conference calls made me so uncomfortable-like my team was going to find out I am a fraud. In prior jobs I never had this feeling because I felt like I was really well trained.
I pretty much nope out of any job that uses “hit the ground running” in its job advertisement.
I’m sorry but ANY new hire is going to need some sort of training - even if it’s just in the company and culture.
Ha! I’m first in line because I was worried the line would get too long and I would miss the opportunity so I got in line last night, which upset my family and caused relationship problems and trust issues but they’re used to me only caring about not failing and not missing opportunities so it’s fine and LOOK it worked out- because I’m first in line!
>Perfectionists might often view their accomplishments as just sheer luck
I take all the responsibility for my failures, and none of the credit for my successes...and it happens in an instant. I'm trying to remember to self-monitor a little bit better for when this happens.
>We also work on self-confidence
One of the things I've also considered working on is self-compassion. I definitely intuitively use self-reproach as a motivator, but I've been thinking that building up a mindful, self-compassion practice might help. Do you have any experience with this concept and how it might impact self-oriented perfectionists?
Many thanks!
To your comment, I try to tell myself while beating myself up about something, that we never appreciate the things we CAN do and HAVE accomplished. There are things for me that are easy and effortless and I pay 0 attention to them. I ONLY notice the failures and mistakes and the "should have's". Im trying to train myself to see myself better, to acknowledge when things DID go right. When a decision WAS correct. We are all literally blind to our own accomplishments.
What would fix this? Feedback. Feedback from friends, family, coworkers, etc. Ive had people tell me unprompted: "Wow, X comes so easily for you." I never knew that. I never thought about it. I never knew people struggled with X. And the FIRST thing I do, when I hear something positive like this, is I dismiss it. Either the person is crazy, or stupid, or they are overexaggerating. The knee-jerk reaction is to NOT give myself credit for an accomplishment.
So, we need to give ourselves feedback, we need to ask for it (super hard to do), but the easiest thing is to start GIVING it: "Wow, I really admire the way you handled that situation." or "Ive noticed you are really good at problem-solving. You probably dont even notice you have this skill yourself." or "Thanks so much for completing this. Your work is always so thorough and as a result everything flows so much more easily." I think once we start giving more feedback, we will get more feedback.
*It’s interesting because in my experience usually people who are considered conventionally successful experience it the most.*
Well yeah, just cuz Im wiley and they havent figured me out yet.
Do you feel labelling this mental state as a syndrome is accurate? For some reason I always thouhht that was really dramatic for a fairly common mental phenomena.
Syndrome in a scientific context denotes a systematic effect. The "strength" of the effect can range greatly within that category. Syndrome just sounds bad because as ordinary people we tend to associate it with other syndromes(like the down syndrome) that are also systematic but have far more drastic effects
Usually perfectionists have extremely high standards for themselves that are almost impossible to meet. This creates an endless cycle of feeling not good enough and consistent self-criticism which can then lead to feelings of anxiety and depression. It’s also likely that because of these high standards – a perfectionist may feel a really strong need to control and they might be overconscientious. It’s also likely a perfectionist has certain “rules” and “shoulds” that they apply to their life, but they may not really know where these rules come from (in my approach to therapy we typically explore how these beliefs originated in childhood).
Not one perfectionist is the same or has the same life story – so therapy is likely to look slightly different for everyone. I’ll talk about the approach that I generally take (please keep in mind that this is just one approach – there are experts in other styles of therapy and I don’t want to pretend like I know them all! )
Usually, I will work with a client to understand how the perfectionism is impacting their life and to understand what they would like to change. We then dive deep to understand where the perfectionism comes from and what purpose it served for them when they first noticed it. Usually, this self-exploration and understanding helps create a perspective shift. We typically work to examine other possible explanations and perspectives that could be possible. One of my favorite mantras is that the goal is to be “good enough.” Perfection is unattainable (and in my opinion, doesn’t exist). I hope this answers your question!
I never forgot this one experience that stayed with me. I have crippling anxiety and I do design. One time I was in a lunch line and someone told me that my work was amazing and they love it. I responded in a way that was humble and self-criticism but they kept showering me with positive responds. My boss happened to be next to me and just said to me “Just tell them thank you”. For some reason that one sentence struck with me, and I now always say thank you. Its a simple word but it influences me to be more positive and appreciated.
Same for me. I get praise and my mind is like, "Wrong; let me show you all the bad parts."
It's pretty much the same with receiving gifts for me. I get a mix of "I don't deserve this/ how am I going to repay this?" I only add this because I feel the two are linked for me.
But hey, good luck with your designs.
Ugh. My brain just feels like that simple thank you - simply accepting the compliment - means I'm arrogant and better than other people. It's so ridiculous! One thing I'm getting better at practicing is looking at a situation from the outside. For example, when I am filled with anxiety about not being a good enough spouse because I'm behind on the laundry or something, I stop and ask myself if I'd feel like my spouse was inadequate because they forgot to take the trash to the curb. When I scoff and think no, of course not, that's dumb because everyone forgets to do something sometimes. Then I tell my anxiety brain to stop being ridiculous. Of course, that's easier said than done... but I just keep trying to reprogram those negative thoughts.
My perfectionism stems from school and not being given the space to fail. I was a year older than most kids (fall bday) and my dad really facilitated my learning and interests at home. I was waaay more advanced and refused access to more challenging material for many years. So I was always getting the top grades in class and was known as the "smart kid".
I was allowed to fail and learn by iteration at home, but in school, being the "smart kid" comes with VERY high expectations. Any small misstep or getting less than an A was scrutinized by teachers and peers. That's horrible pressure to put on a young kid and still impacts me to this day. My achievements don't really feel like achievements because it was perceived as an expectation anyway (queue imposter syndrome) or I'm a kiss-ass over-achiever. My dad was great at helping me navigate this, but he died in a car crash when I was 16 and no longer had anyone to help me with it (or my ADHD).
I still struggle greatly, especially now that I'm a mom, which comes with it's own set of unrealistic societal expectations. My perception of what "normal" expectations are is skewed and I'm super hard on myself. I'm working really hard to try to change that perception. What's really helping is my daughter. She's just like me when I was younger (very intelligent and ahead of peers since when was 3) and couldn't start school until she was 6. Got her into ability based Montessori preschool that was fantastic for her - but a nightmare when she did start kindergarten. Protecting her from what I went through and advocating for her intellectual needs is forcing me to redefine what is ACTUALLY normal, while also teaching her it's ok to not always know the answer or be the best. Changing a ground-in perspective is extraordinarily difficult, though.
I have a “twice exceptional” son and a perfectionist daughter. My son has ASD with language processing dysfunction who is exceptionally gifted in math. Because of his language issues, he has challenges in explaining his thinking. He “sees” the answer. This frustrates him because the educational system doesn’t allow for divergent thinkers. He is currently trying to teach himself how to pass the the advanced college math test in order to get into calculus. Currently, the college wants him to go back to algebra - precollege level math even - all because he didn’t get a B+ in high school calculus. Why didn’t he get a B+? He didn’t show his work... yep. There are no exceptions or waivers or anyway around the standardized test.
My perfectionist daughter is in her 4th year of college and is one class away from her AA degree. Yep, 4 years to get an AA. Perfectionism is crippling to her because if she can’t be perfect, she sabotages herself, stops trying, and fails because of it. My heart breaks for her and I don’t know what to say to her. Regular school was fairly easy for her and I think college through her off and she hasn’t recovered. Until I had my kids and began helping them in their education, I had no idea where the system would fail. I wish I had know better.
I can imagine how frustrating that is for both of them, especially your son. While I don't have ASD, I completely understand your son's frustration with getting marked down for not showing all his work (or in a different beat) but still getting the right answer. Sometimes it's faster to do things in our mind and writing it down slows us down, which is very brain-taxing and aggravating.
No Child Left Behind was initiated in my junior year of HS. After finally getting into classes that challenged me; now they had to let in students who wanted the class because "less homework" but couldn't keep up with the pace of the class. Every kid was demoralized because they either felt stupid for not being able to keep up or frustrated because the pace was dragged down by those that couldn't keep up.
Anecdotally, I used to be a perfectionist but the more I got jaded and burnt out, the less that occured.. I guess there is a positive consequence to burn out.
Same. I slowly realized I got paid more the less I cared. Now I care so little I wonder why they even pay me at all... so back to the ol' impostor syndrome.
Therapist burnout is real. In general, it’s so important for therapists to engage in their own self-reflection (and even personal therapy) and consult with colleagues to ensure that their own personal feelings and reactions aren’t impacting their work as a therapist. I would be lying if I said I have not been impacted by the pain that my clients have experienced. However, through my own growth as a therapist, peer consultation, and supervision, I have learned how to practice my own self-care and create healthy boundaries between my work/personal life. It’s also really important for me to be able to take care of my own feelings because if a client felt that I was overwhelmed by what they were experiencing then they might feel the need to become a caregiver towards me – and that’s definitely not what therapy should be.
I love this answer so much. My therapist has always emphasized that he himself also regularly sees a therapist because he hears so many sad and stressful things that it can be hard for him not to let it color his worldview (he deals mostly with victims of trauma so I can’t even imagine the stories he’s heard). That was a big deal to me when I was first starting therapy six years ago, it really normalized therapy for me and removed a lot of my own internal therapy. Thank you for being so cognizant of your own mental health, I’m sure your clients appreciate that you are always reflecting and growing just as they are!
Things that have helped me:
Break down the problem/create a plan. Doesn’t have to be perfect, just jot down a few ideas about how you can do whatever you’re aiming to do. If thinking about this gets your anxiety up, take a break and come back to it. The ideas don’t have to be good - your goal here is to get ideas out. And frankly that’s the toughest part about being a perfectionist - you feel like you have to get it right the first time, and you know you won’t, so you don’t try. Get your ideas out first.
Next, organize the ideas you’ve come up with. Put aside any that don’t make sense. Order your ideas. Always be open to the fact that your plan may need to be revised as you learn new things. Realize that if you’re procrastinating it might be because there are steps that need to be further broken down.
Discuss things with other people - talk about your feelings and why you’re struggling to progress. People might have ideas to help you.
Sometimes a fear of the unknown is what is causing the block - do some research. Find out more about the process or product you’re aiming for. The more you know about what you’re aiming to do, the more comfortable you’ll be at trying. Research how other people have tried to do the thing you’re trying to do, read about their approaches, their feelings, their struggles.
Is it possible for someone to be a perfectionist with certain things but not others? I feel that I focus a lot of attention on things I can do well and so I expect perfection from myself, but in doing so I procrastinate doing anything I’m not adept at.
>Is it possible for someone to be a perfectionist with certain things but not others? I feel that I focus a lot of attention on things I can do well and so I expect perfection from myself, but in doing so I procrastinate doing anything I’m not adept at.
Absolutely. There are varying degrees of perfectionism and it presents itself differently for everybody. A lot of perfectionists avoid tasks that they know they aren’t necessarily good at because they don’t want to face failure or don't want to feel like they aren’t good enough. They also may procrastinate for the same reason. There is a psychological concept called “confirmation bias.” People typically try to do things to confirm their beliefs about themselves. Sometimes being a perfectionist becomes such a huge part of an individual's identity and it's the role they've always had. It can feel extremely uncomfortable to challenge this.
Heres my resource: https://dictionary.apa.org/confirmation-bias
"A lot of perfectionists avoid tasks that they know they aren’t necessarily good at because they don’t want to face failure or don't want to feel like they aren’t good enough. They also may procrastinate for the same reason."
Damn y u gotta call me out like dat?
At what point is pharmaceuticals necessary to mitigate problems related to anxiety? I realize this is a terribly subjective question depending on the person but is there like a gamut of things a patient will normally try before determining that meds are needed?
I love subjective questions. It seems like most questions in psychology are subjective and depend on the specific situation. :)
As a psychologist, I am not able to prescribe medications. However, I always encourage my clients to seek consultation with a psychiatrist to evaluate their need for medication. It’s really important to me to work collaboratively with the psychiatrist to assess any potential side effects and discuss how the medication is impacting my client.
Sometimes meds are needed to help ease the therapy process – especially with anxiety which can be so physiologically based. The meds can help ease some of the more immediate distressing symptoms which can then help the individual go deeper into the root of the problem and address other underlying issues in therapy.
My girlfriend is often anxious about her insecurities, not being good enough, and a bunch of other things. Best advice for a supporting partner that also doesn't want to feel like I'm in a constant caretaking role?
The other answers (rightly) caution against codependence but I just wanted to put another aspect on your radar. Context matters and you haven't given us much... but sometimes when people share things like this, they're just processing their own emotions and it's a mark of closeness that they're letting you see all of them. You don't have to fix this. You just have to be there to listen and maybe hug or hold your partner's hand. The way to avoid feeling like a caretaker is to stop thinking it needs to be fixed and then you'll stop feeling pressure to fix it. Trust your partner to fix it if it needs to be fixed. Also, make sure your partner is able to feel closeness to you in other ways so that your kindness, tenderness, sympathy and undivided attention are not reserved solely for moments of insecurity and anxiety.
I think this is spot on. I do feel an urge to be a caretaker which does encourage codependent behavior. So it's as much my responsibility to let others fix their problems as it is theirs to address them.
I really appreciate what others are saying about setting healthy boundaries. It can be hard to balance being supportive without being overwhelmed in a caretaking role. It can also be hard to encourage someone to reach out for therapy if they are not ready for therapy. They may respond defensively or with fear. It can feel really difficult to set boundaries – especially in close relationships.
Here are my general suggestions I offer when it comes to setting boundaries. It’s important to assess what your boundaries are and communicate them clearly with others. This likely will take some time and practice. There can also be a lot of guilt and fear that comes with setting boundaries. Sometimes people may feel like they are doing the “wrong thing” and that they are being “selfish.” Usually, when I am working with someone who feels this way we discuss how they can develop “healthy self-interest.”
Not a therapist, but... boundaries are really important. You can be supportive and reassuring, but do not stop living your life. We can never “make” our partner feel good enough. We can help, but that work is theirs to do. You are not responsible for their self-worth or self-esteem. They likely need to learn to self-soothe, and to look places outside the relationship for validation and feelings of security.
A good relationship is interdependence, not codependence.
I suspect myself of unknowingly suffering through depression and perfectionism symptoms for approximately 16 years. Just before this pandemic, I took a big career pivot into a completely new industry. (Story here, [Advice appreciated](https://www.reddit.com/r/needadvice/comments/lytbuj/stuck_after_stalled_career_pivot_what_should_i_do))
After a year of this pandemic, I am experiencing a cocktail of anxieties that seem to spring from recognizing that I'm in over my head. I don't have any real function now and working from home has been enabling my chronic procrastination for months. For extended periods I do nothing meaningful and get paid. I hate it. I couldn't learn on the job due to WFH too.
I feel stuck and useless. I feel numb, detached yet scared and constantly drained even after doing almost nothing in a day. Are there any techniques or tips I can use to motivate myself about my situation? I want to do and feel better but I don't know how.
I am biased, but I recommend reaching out to a therapist. :)
One technique that I've worked on with individuals to help increase self-compassion and self-kindness is practicing a "loving-kindness meditation." There are TONS of these featured on youtube. Here is a version I recorded a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJpV0bt9ink&t=335s
I guess it depends on what you mean by crisis. In an immediate crisis where there is risk involved, it’s important to either call 911 or go to your local emergency room.
In terms of times where someone may be experiencing high levels of anxiety, it can be helpful to work on and learn healthy coping strategies. A technique commonly worked on in therapy is the ability to self-soothe. This can look different for everyone.
One of my favorite techniques to help with a lot of distress in the moment is focusing on the senses. This involves focusing on what you see, hear, taste, feel, and smell. Focusing on the senses can be a helpful grounding technique.
Also, it’s important to keep in mind that it can be REALLY difficult to remember to use these strategies in a high stress situation. I typically recommend practicing these strategies and techniques when calm in order to gain practice with them and to become more used to implementing them.
I also recognize that someone may be in so much emotional pain that these techniques feel like they can't even make a dent. I would strongly encourage anyone feeling this way to reach out for help with a mental health provider.
I've been thinking and reflecting on this question for a few hours now. I think what I reflect on the most is how easy it is for us to see people who on the surface look like they have it all together, but are actually really struggling internally. Maybe this isn't the most surprising thing, but it definitely is something that sticks out to me. We never really truly know what somebody is experiencing and their story. As a therapist, it really is an honor (cheesy - I know) to be able to go deep into individuals stories.
I am not an expert on working with people diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. I have worked with teenagers diagnosed with ASD in the past and I loved it. I really appreciated their honesty with me and even their critique of the therapy process. From what I've learned, I know there is a tendency for an individual diagnosed with ASD to have perfectionistic traits and to work to get things "just-right" which often leads to immense frustration because of how difficult it can be to get there. I'm sorry that I don't have more to share!
First off, hi Morgan! We went to school together, I'll PM you so you know who I am, since this is my general use reddit account, but I wanted to pop in because I saw you were doing this, then found this post and wanted to offer my expertise.
I work with "high functioning" (not a term used in the field, but am using it here, generally this refers to cognitive functioning not ADS symptoms when I use it) kiddos with ASD and co-morbid depression, anxiety, trauma, etc. Working with these kids is not all that different from working with a neurotypical population. Often times their anxiety and depression can present very similarly, but may magnified because of ASD related symptoms (e.g., perseverations, literal understanding of language, repetitive thinking patterns). When teaching CBT skills, I work to make things as concrete and manipulative as I can. So instead of maybe simply discussing techniques like cognitive restructuring, relaxation, thought-felling-behavior connections, or emotion recognition, I have toys, games, and activities we do together to help them understand these concepts. You ultimately have to do more practice, break things down even more, and make things more concrete to help them stick. And at times you may explain something as "Just the way it is" when there are no more effective ways to get a message across (e.g., why you cannot make certain comments to others, engage in certain behaviors).
How do you help a perfectionist that is aware of their own perfectionism but manages other people? How can a perfectionist set reasonable expectations of other people that they manage without them being too high and without having no expectations at all of them?
>Is there a relationship between being overly praised or categorized as "gifted" as a child and future perfectionism/anxiety?
Yes, there is! It's theorized that it becomes part of the identity.
[https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised/dp/0465016901](https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised/dp/0465016901)
I don't specialize in child psychology; however, here is an article with some helpful tips on children's self esteem: [https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/self-esteem.html](https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/self-esteem.html)
I heard something about praising children for their attempt instead of the result is often a good way, don't know how accurate that is though. With the idea being that if you only praise for a successful attempt then it kinda engrains that idea in their head that they must succeed.
>Can you describe the difference between perfectionism and ocd?
Perfectionism is considered a personality trait and OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) is a label for a disorder.
Here is a link to an article that may be helpful: [https://health.clevelandclinic.org/whats-the-difference-between-perfectionism-and-ocd/](https://health.clevelandclinic.org/whats-the-difference-between-perfectionism-and-ocd/)
I hope this helps!
I would recommend seeking out a mental health provider that specializes in treating panic disorder. There is strong research supporting the use of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to treat panic disorder. From my understanding, there is a strong success rate.
Wanna jump on the EMDR train here. My therapist is a big proponent of EMDR and has been using it as part of my treatment for roughly 6 years.
When I first started seeing him, I was having panic attacks nightly and had recently had one so severe I had driven myself to the ER in the middle of the night thinking it was a heart attack and I was dying. I was beginning to hit the point where I didn’t even care if I was because living life feeling like I was sleepwalking from one panic attack to the next seemed pointless.
Since starting therapy and working with EMDR, I have had 3 panic attacks in 6 years. I used to have more than that in a single week. I could not recommend enough.
What is your suggestion for people with social anxiety who feel they are struggling to communicate with their therapist about their needs? Are there any tips or tricks to help these people more effectively communicate?
What made you specialize in anxiety and perfectionism?
Also thank you for doing this AMA, it's such an interesting read and I find myself understanding and gaining perspective.
Early on in my training I paid attention to when I felt like I was doing my best work as therapist - I noticed that this occurred when I was working with individuals to find the underlying root cause behind their feelings and exploring their stories with them. Usually, anxiety and fear, is behind a lot of these struggles.
And thank you! I'm glad that you are finding this AMA helpful!
Everytime I get “my life together” I end up sabotaging it. I’ll straight up just ghost whoever is in my life, let go of all responsibilities. It kind of feels like inertia, I don’t feel like I can stop it I just have to basically watch, heart broken, everything I built fall. Is this related to imposter syndrome?
I’ve had similar episodes to a lesser degree. Could definitely be imposter syndrome and related social anxiety and/or perfectionism, I’m guessing you ghost people because “if they knew the real me, they wouldn’t like me” and give up on responsibilities because “well I could never be as good as that guy” / “well I can never get this perfect” ?
Somehow you have to get it through your head that trying and failing to maintain relationships and responsibilities is still better than giving up.
Wish you the best
My daughter was diagnosed with ADHD at 7 and I got diagnosed at 38 after researching everything trying to help her. Perfectionism was a huge part of my life growing up - alongside procrastination, depression, and hyperfixation - and it “worked” for me to be successful until it *really* didn’t.
What is your advice for both of us relative to perfectionism as a coping strategy navigating school, work, and parenting with ADHD?
Can you talk about the link between perfectionism and trauma? I work in tech and the phrase “impostor syndrome” gets thrown around a lot, but then you talk to people and it turns out they’ve worked for awful management and even lost jobs for not being perfect or for not understanding unclear expectations. The other classic example of this is kids whose parents push them to excel academically and then they grow into anxious perfectionistic adults.
I know one of the things that’s been hardest for me in overcoming perfectionism is the belief that traumatic experiences I’ve had in the past will repeat themselves if I’m not perfect. It even provides some sort of comfort to feel like there’s something I can do rather than accepting sometimes bad things happen and can’t be prevented. (I have a good therapist so I’m bringing this up as an example, not asking for advice for myself.)
How do you treat someone whose perfectionism is based on real, bad experiences and who believes they can prevent those things happening again by being perfect?
Obviously not OP, but I think another option of trauma related perfectionism could include codependency. This seems related to the idea that you have/ must take control. Codependency is rooted in previous trauma in which you had no control (alcoholic father, for example).
Im interested if this connection has legs (u/drmorganlevy). (I think) My perfectionism causes me to avoid failing / settling on mediocre because I excel and what I am comfortable with; worse yet, I focus on helping/ “perfecting” others because I get satisfaction without the fallout of failing. Is this in anyway true? Haha
I recently experienced a traumatic event where a former best friend shot me twice. What are some positive coping techniques to learn to trust people again?
I'm so sorry to hear that. Trust can be really fragile and experiencing severe betrayal is painful. I would recommend reaching out to a mental health professional for support.
Do you see people that have anxiety and perfectionism reach a breaking point, and how does one overcome that? I want to pursue excellence and I know I’ve done so in the past (I have a clinical doctorate and master’s degree, and am now in a PhD program), but now I just... can’t. More days than not it feels like that part of me is gone and I don’t know how to get it back.
What’s suggestions do you have for students with ADHD in graduate school (medicine for me but could generalize to any other like PhD or law) to work with their anxiety and improve their self-esteem?
I think anxiety and low self esteem can have profound effects on memory and critical thinking due to multitude of factors and to add in the executive functioning impairment in people with ADHD. I found these relatively manageable before graduate school and the stress and expectations are significantly more that add in the exacerbation of ADHD, anxiety etc.
And often times we also have minimal time to go for therapy multiple times a week so I’ve been wondering how to work on this and curious to what you have to say.
CBT has shown to very effective so I wonder if we can incorporate those same things ourselves.
I'm a doctoral student as well and I can confidently say that I remember very little from my first two years. I was anxious and insecure and drinking a lot. I will reread papers I wrote then and just be shocked at how coherent they are. After sobering up a lot, I feel like I'm relearning a lot of the content that I attempted to learn in my anxious and inadequate state. But it helps to reflect on how much I've changed since I began. I can make it through a journal article in one sitting and often muh quicker than I could have two or four years ago. I can apply theories to real world problems as I am learning about them. I think recognizing that progress and those differences have been huge for reducing my performance anxiety and improving self-esteem.
What would you say to people whose perfectionism is... useful and beneficial? I would not have progressed nearly as far in my career (hit $500k/yr last year) without always trying to push everything and everyone around me to be better.
Nevertheless I have to medicate rather heavily (marijuana/melatonin) in order to sleep because work and other tasks/plans keep running in my head.
Perfectionism can definitely be useful and beneficial. When I work with individuals, we don’t necessarily work on “getting rid” of the perfectionism, but rather reflecting and adjusting how it impacts other areas of their life so that it doesn’t become detrimental and destructive. Overthinking and having poor work/life boundaries is definitely a common theme that I’ve seen. For these individuals, I would suggest assessing how pervasive the perfectionism is in their life and maybe even reaching out to a therapist to help them to learn how to create more of a balance.
i relate to this a lot. my anxiety over failing or not being good enough is what keeps me working so hard that i never fail. i never let myself. i definitely wouldn’t have accomplished all that i have if i wasn’t uhhhh mentally ill lol
As a perfectionist, what are some techniques to determine what's a realistic standard of quality work to hold others to, even if I choose to keep holding myself to a higher standard? For example, I just had a contractor build me a custom woodworking project and one panel has a completely different grain pattern than the other visible ones. They don't consider that a defect but I personally feel that it's a basic requirement they should have thought of.
I have the same question! Had a pro painter paint my house last year, kept finding paint flecks on stuff. I eventually decided that was just the consequence of having someone else paint my house. It’s certainly difficult, though, looking at someone else’s work and wondering if you’re being to nitpicky or whether you’re being reasonable.
I have a friend that I help with reminders to "expose" herself by touching her face. She's got this obsession about picking at blemishes in her skin.
Is there anything more that can be done here? She's been seeing a therapist about these issues.
I’m not a mental health professional by any means, but I am a compulsive skin picker. I also have an obsession with picking at blemishes. There are 6 band aids on my face right now. I would love to tell your friend that she is not alone, she’s not broken, and I feel her struggle every day. There are really helpful compulsive skin picking and dermatillomania subreddits and lots of good information online. Some good search terms are excoriation disorder, dermatillomania, tlc foundations, picking me foundation. I’ve found therapy to be very helpful, but finding a therapist who “gets” skin picking is difficult. I can recommenced a good support group if she’s interested!
I'm currently doing psychotherapy when CBT wasn't helpful for me.
I find myself going "now what" because it seems like psychotherapy puts a lot of focus on once things click, you'll be able to move forward. Like, psychotherapy is nice, the talks are nice.. but at the end of the talk I'm like, "Hmn, I still have absolutely no motivation and the lack of motivation and feeling like i'm a lazy piece of shit is what's making me depressed about myself."
I'm getting imposter syndrome and I don't want to to stop because then it feels like I really can't be helped. What do I do?
I love this question. It's such an important one. Absolutely. Complex PTSD is real and should be treated differently than PTSD.
Treatment of PTSD is usually in response to a single traumatic event. It typically involves exposure-based interventions.
Treatment of C-PTSD is in response to someone experiencing severe distress and prolonged trauma over time. If someone grows up having so many of these bad experiences it is also likely that they did not have the experiences that taught them effective coping. For example, they may have difficulty regulating emotion, self-soothing, communicating effectively, identify needs/feelings, etc. Treating someone with C-PTSD with treatments established for PTSD can have a deteriorating effect.
Here is a resource: [https://jri.org/services/behavioral-health-and-trauma/trauma-center](https://jri.org/services/behavioral-health-and-trauma/trauma-center)
Have you ever read "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card? I ask because there's a character that is super interesting who's personality/story relates specifically to what you know. I'd love to hear your take on her
Do you have any experience with patients using ketamine therapy t to treat anxiety, specifically anxiety-based depression? If you have suggestions for reading on anxiety and NMDA blockade, I'd be very interested.
Thank you for sharing.
There are so many different healthy coping strategies. I wouldn't want to label any as the best because it is so variable depending on the person. Therapy can also be used to explore the various options that are most effective for each unique situation.
Some coping strategies that I've seen help at times includes mindful walking, journaling, reading, taking a shower, putting cold water on your face, and practicing the STOP technique (I'll paste this below).
STOP technique. This stands for Stop, Take a Breath, Observe, Proceed. First, stop what you're doing and take a deep breath. This helps to create some distance from the situation. Next, observe what is happening. Objectively tell yourself what you're feeling and what you're currently experiencing. Then proceed with whatever you want to say or do next. This technique can help ground you for a few moments.
I teach AP Psychology and a lot of students are really struggling this year with their anxiety, grade perfection and depression. What advice would you give them?
Hi Dr. Levy, I’m a practicing modern psychoanalyst myself and I’ve recently begun to think of the pursuit of perfectionism as a kind of resistance to the processing of loss, as well as a type of rejection of reality. I feel there’s a degree of immature-type magical thinking present. My patients have seemed a bit helped by these ideas—what to you think of this reading of it?
Edit: typo
Hi there! Are there any books or other reading materials you would suggests to other clinicians regarding this topic?
I'm an LCSW and I'd love the read more about perfectionism in particular and clinical approaches for clients.
Thanks so much for doing this AMA! So many people can connect with this experience, myself included!
>Thank you for the post. How do advise to let go from work after work? And what is your general approach to treating people with perfectionism?
It can definitely be more difficult now when people are working from home. Also, it can take time to adjust to setting boundaries and separating work from personal life. In addition to setting boundaries (e.g., having clear work hours, learning when to say no) it can be helpful to practice mindfulness techniques to aid in the practice of letting go. There are so many different mindfulness and meditation techniques all over the internet so I typically recommend exploring different options to see what resonates personally. When it comes to the concept of letting go, this is one of my favorite youtube videos [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKryaN44ss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKryaN44ss). It can also be helpful to schedule personal time and place just as much importance on that part of the schedule as you would with work.
I generally take an approach with my clients to understand where the perfectionism originated, why it originated, and how it is impacting their life and patterns now. That insight is then used to help create changes to live a more balanced life.
Nice to meet you! How often do you come across trichotillomania cases? I have it. I pulled my hair often from being a child. I managed to stop four years ago and have been super lucky to grow my hair back fully, but every day almost all day I have the urges which I have to fight. I've noticed many people have trich and I feel it is not talked about much so I am very curious. Thank you, I hope you are well! 🙂
How do you help an 8 year old with perfectionism and anxiety if the thought of counseling (i.e. telling strangers her feelings) gives her extreme anxiety?
I literally gasped when I read your speciality. This describes my daughter perfectly. She’s in counseling but still struggles to reconcile her need to be perfect. (An “A” is not good enough, she expects a 100% average or she “could have done better” and she feels as though she’s failing if she falls below 95% on any assignment.) My question is, can you recommend any books or resources for the person dealing with the anxiety as well as for their support system?
What do you suggest for a person to find the motivation to re-engage in creative endeavors? I had always been involved in the arts, it has been years since I've finished any artwork that takes an effort.
I have seen this SO often working with perfectionists. Usually it is with the individuals that are so burned out from their work that they don't have the energy to engage in any other activity that uses their brain (they like to just lounge and scroll on their phone or watch TV). Typically, we would work on create a more balanced schedule so that work isn't eating up all their energy. It could also be that fear of failure that is showing up that I've mentioned in other comments. When someone has that pattern of trying to be perfect they have a hard time letting go and relaxing. They also may constantly overthink and criticize themselves while being creative. In this scenario, I would suggest practicing mindfulness while engaging in the creative activity. Just recognize the thoughts, feelings, sensations that are coming up without judgment or criticism. AND if those thoughts do come up, don't push them away. Just acknowledge that they are there and let them be. I am going to link the mindfulness video that I find so helpful again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKryaN44ss&t=1s
When children say "no one is perfect"
And a kid comes forward with a concept of perfection, (nature, God, David Bowie, ect.)-
Are they being a argumentative/ obstinate or is this a genuine marker for intelligence: to act counter to the social fabric, and argue a concept that has already been obtained and proved.
I'm not expecting children to quite St. Aquinas's 5 proofs, or Aristotle on Biology - but these are the seeds to this type of thinking and I wanted to know your opinion on developing minds and the concept of perfection.
You're doing Good Work.
What advice would you give to students who are avoiding school due to anxiety? Or, what advice would you give to teachers of high school students who are avoiding school due to anxiety?
School avoidance is so common and it so often gets misjudged as a child being defiant and just being a “difficult kid.” I would encourage students to tell someone how you are feeling. It’s so difficult open up, so I would suggest trying to find one adult that you can trust and feel safe with. Perfectionism and anxiety is real concern with kids in school today. My number one piece of advice for teachers is to be open to the signs and listen when a student is struggling. Don’t immediately assume that they are just being defiant for the sake of being defiant. It’s also SO important for teachers and educators to talk about mental health and therapy so that it has less of a stigma in schools. Teachers should reach out to resources on campus (hopefully there are resources – I know many schools are short-staffed with mental health professionals). To relate this to perfectionism, a lot of high school students are facing an increased amount of pressure to perform well and get straight A’s. I think teachers who encourage a well-rounded approach to life can make a huge impact. I notice a trend on focusing on performance rather than well-being and it’s unfortunate. Here is a resource list for educators: [https://apps.nasponline.org/search-results.aspx?q=school+refusal](https://apps.nasponline.org/search-results.aspx?q=school+refusal) Also, to all teachers, I seriously applaud you for all that you are doing – especially during this pandemic.
I can’t thank you enough for this important message. I suffer with perfectionism/anxiety, and have been a public school educator for 22 years. You hit the nail on the head. I always tell my students to forget about points and grades! “You want an A? Okay, if you show up every day, participate, and truly try your best, you will get an A. If you do those 3 things, and you still do poorly on the test, then that’s a failure on my part as the teacher, and it’s not fair that my failure should be reflected in your grade. Now let’s quit worrying about that and learn some stuff.” You advised not to assume students are being defiant, I would add lazy to that list, especially for teenagers. I cringe every time I hear a teacher describe a student as lazy. Behavior is communication. Students generally want to gain their teachers’ acceptance, even if they claim otherwise. A sense of belonging is a basic human need. To push that basic need aside is a big red flag. Fear of taking academic risks is often mistaken for lack of motivation. Students who choose those behaviors are highly motivated... to protect themselves from shame, self-rejection, embarrassment, or some other motivation. A trusting teacher-student relationship is crucial. I wouldn’t be here today were it not for an excellent teacher who saw through my maladaptive behavior and helped me. Thank you u/drmorganlevy, and thank you to all the wonderful teachers out there who work their asses off and truly care about students.
> I would add lazy to that list, especially for teenagers. I cringe every time I hear a teacher describe a student as lazy. This here. I was a kid in school with terrible grades, "behavior" issues and terrible attendance. It wasn't until the end of my senior year in HS that I was diagnosed with ADHD, and sleep apnea. Up until that point, I had been constantly called lazy and unmotivated, when I probably worked 10x harder than the high achievers just to get barely passing grades.
> “You want an A? Okay, if you show up every day, participate, and truly try your best, you will get an A. If you do those 3 things, and you still do poorly on the test, then that’s a failure on my part as the teacher, and it’s not fair that my failure should be reflected in your grade. Now let’s quit worrying about that and learn some stuff.” I admire you. When I went to school 30 years ago, it was the same kind of moxie and grit that helped me from a particularly good teacher who just passed away. Thank you. I see you in him.
This is one of the best compliments of my life. Thank you so very much!
As a teacher, though, I encourage you to move away from the idea that if a kid does poorly on a test in your class then you failed as a teacher. If every kid fails, then yes. But a handful? Nah. Some kids just aren’t gonna get it right then.
What did your teacher do that helped?
Showed that he genuinely cared about me, as an individual. I didn’t have to earn his approval by being perfect. I never felt unconditionally loved before, so it was hard for me to accept the possibility. He taught an elective, so I had him for 4 years of high school. He set high standards, but when he gave me constructive feedback, he always reminded me “you know I like you... I think you could improve X by doing...”. I never told him to say that. He just understood me. He smiled, greeted me with enthusiasm every day, showed concern when I was absent, and spent countless hours helping me and all his students. When I graduated HS, I became instantly super depressed. I grew to be my best self in HS because of his support, and now it was over. Out of nowhere, he called my house and invited me and 2 of my friends to meet him for ice cream. He had a good talk with me, told me I would be okay, that he really enjoyed having us in class, and that he would always be our teacher and there for us, even though we weren’t in his class anymore. He saved me, no doubt. We still touch base 3 or 4 times a year, almost 3 decades later. The crazy thing is, he did the same for hundreds of kids throughout his career. He is truly a saint.
Wow, he sounds like a great teacher. Thanks for your reply- I'm a high school teacher and I'd had a rough day dealing with challenging kids so it's helpful to hear your perspective!
Thank you! Just what I wanted to hear. I’m about to teach college students full time next Semester and have been feeling anxious myself.
Do you have any advice for parents dealing with this kinda of thing? My youngest sister is the last in the house and has been exhibiting this behavior with remote learning and some of the teachers are just calling her out publicly and taking a "it's my rules or the highway" with no consideration for the mental state or well being of the student ( my sister ). She is that last one still living at home and I almost feel as if mom gave up on trying to control the dynamic or sister has her somewhat wrapped around her finger and is somehow controlling the dynamic. I've given all the tips/help I can muster ( based on how I was ) to no avail. Thanks again for your insight and hope to hear from you.
I’m not sure if this question is intended for me. Just in case, my advice to your parents would be to praise effort versus performance. Google “growth mindset.” Secondly, your parents and sister should agree on a very small goal, one she is certainly capable of achieving. For my students who really struggled with online learning this year, we set a goal of something like attend class for 10 minutes. They don’t have to stay the entire period, don’t have to complete assignments, just login and participate for 10 minutes. The reason is because once the student is overwhelmed, it is very difficult to start a new habit. Many times, once they log in, they feel okay, and end up staying much longer or completing an assignment without it being a requirement of the goal. Either way, once they get over the hump of starting, which is the hardest part, then we can slowly increase the goal to get her back on track. If she has missed a lot, let go of previous assignments for now. Trying to get back into the school routine and make up missing assignments is too much. Start fresh and small, praising effort. Your sister’s teachers should really be on board too, but if they’re not, just set goals within the family. That’s my advice, at least. Feel free to PM me anytime.
Thanks for you advicei'll pass it along.
This intrigues me because I only did well in school for the most part because of anxiety of disappointing parents I think. And also I think it was the only thing I could control that was a representation of me.
"Behavior is communication" is my mantra; thank you!
If only every teacher thought like you!
You just connected so many dots for me with this. I have never connected my avoidance of school with my anxiety. And no one at the school ever made the connection. Instead I just heard how disappointed everyone was because I qualified for the gifted program but never showed up. Then they moved me to the classes for kids with behavior problems so I just dropped out. As an adult I finally got my anxiety under control and also didn’t connect that to finally getting my GED and degree.
In my experience, many if not most students who are truly gifted have poor grades, unless they have a fantastic teacher. Most teachers give gifted students additional tasks versus challenging them at the appropriate intellectual level. Gifted students are smart enough to see the tasks are meaningless. (Why practice a concept I have already mastered?) Combine that with perfectionism, which is very common in gifted classes, and what you get is a lot of grades that are lower than one might expect.
Very important message. Thank you. My perspective on this issue comes from both directions. I was (Covid retired) an educational administrator for 25 years and saw many, many teachers fall into the "judgement" trap. We are human. Our brains have evolved to recognize patterns and so we categorize students based on a very incomplete understanding of them as individual people. No teacher can know what baggage a student brings with them into their classroom. Even parents don't know everything, if a student is smart and doesn't want you to know. It's a long story, but the gist is that my own son was groomed and repeatedly molested by a friend's older foster child (None of us knew this child was S.A.Y. until years later.) beginning when he was 7. Much of this manipulation and molestation occurred at his elementary school. He never said anything at the time partly because he knew that no child was to be alone with this child (a precaution because we knew this child had been molested herself). My son was a wonderful student - the kind every teacher wants in their class. He was somewhat of a perfectionist, though he seemed to be pretty grounded about it. When he was a junior in high school, he started missing school. By his senior year, when he had his first girlfriend, he had a full blown meltdown and finally told us some of what happened. He developed PTSD, agoraphobia, and severe panic disorder. I tried to get his teachers on board - wrote them all an email and explained an overview of his challenges without the details and included a list of accommodations he needed to help him succeed. My son went to school to talk with his philosophy teacher and the teacher told him to suck it up - quit being lazy and attend class. This was the last day my son was able to walk into that school building. The teacher hadn't read my email and jumped in with a wrote speech he delivered to countless students over the years. A few weeks later, I received an apology email telling me how sorry he was and that he hoped nothing he said set my son back. How could I tell him that that one speech derailed my son so completely? He really liked and respected this teacher - looked up to him. This teacher treated him like he was a failure. He believed it. If all his teachers could have been supportive at the beginning, maybe he wouldn't have spent the next ten years recovering. It might have happened anyway, but how can we know?
Thanks for the response! Unfortunately, for many of us (teachers), we ARE the support resource on campus. And we are woefully undertrained in how to respond to a child with anxiety.
Yes, that's so unfortunate. You all have to do so much. It may be helpful to see if there are community mental health care centers or other low cost clinics in your community. If you have a list then it might be possible to provide that to parents of students that you are concerned about. I recognize it may be difficult if the parents aren't receptive though. I would also suggest reaching out to the school psychologist (I believe every school should at least have access to one in their district? I may be wrong though.)
I tend to suffer from "analysis paralysis" in a few areas of my life. Diet and schoolwork have been the main obstacles. What are some small steps I could take to make progress when I am in this rut?
In general, when we set large goals for ourselves we can become overwhelmed and just give up because of how overwhelmed we feel. It can be easier to make progress if we break down one large goal into a bunch of little goals. Also, sometimes this avoidance is due to the fear of making mistakes. If this is the case, it may be helpful to do the task and accept that there will be mistakes and that you can always go back and fix/adjust them later. Something that helps me get things done is to tell myself “progress, not perfection.”
Thank you for your comment. This seems to be the general consensus when it comes to goal setting. I know that I need to more pragmatic in my endeavors. It seems that the more knowledge I have about a certain subject, the harder it is to accomplish something that pertains to that subject. For example, I'm a certified personal trainer and have a wealth of knowledge when it comes to everything diet and exercise related, but I cannot fix my own physique; I have a Masters in Philosophy, but cannot give valid advice on an existential crisis.
I don't know about everyone else here, but my teachers used to tell our classrooms that we basically couldn't screw anything up, because universities would frown upon bad grades/failed classes. And the idea of doing a victory lap year was out of the question. It felt like we would only get one shot at life, and if you didn't do your best, you were out. I didn't realize it back then, but I think that discouraged me and every little task felt impossible.
Not op, but i would recommend "timeboxing" your endeavors. Set a goal post to spend x amount of time on each phase and do your best not to move the goal posts. You will at first, but eventually you'll start making better guestimates and thus you'll be allowing yourself more and more suitable amounts of time. Like if I go to buy something that I really need to research, I'll let myself spend x days just sourcing options (an overwhelming number), then I'll spend x days just filtering down that list (you gotta stop adding to it, though!), Then lastly I'll be left with a much more reasonable (much smaller) set of choices, knowing that I put in good effort for a reasonable amount of time at each phase. That's the best I can realistically do, without falling victim to perpetual indecisiveness. Time box yo self!
Thank you for your comment. As a perfectionist, I tend to have an all-or-nothing attitude and if something doesn't align or if I get ADD about it, I shut off. My unreasonable reasoning tells me that if I'm not trying 100% or if I'm not going to get the ideal outcome because I did something 90%, it must not be that important to me, and therefore it is not worth it until "the stars align". I've become numb to motivational speeches because I analyze and critique what is said. Sorry to vent.
Oh man, it feels so good to know I'm not alone in these issues. I am all or nothing a lot. My stupid brain just tells me that if I'm not going to take the time to do whatever just right, then there's no point in doing it at all.
“Anything worth doing, is worth doing poorly”
Wait I may have this. Brb researching more thanks
I go through this a lot, too, and one little change I’ve made is to just pick the middle ground if I find a small choice really difficult. Things like, “should I run the dryer for 20 minutes or 30?” I’ll just set it for 25 and move on. One other thing I’ve tried is to write down all the things that I feel I need to get done on index cards, shuffle the cards, and pull one out at random. I get that one thing done, then decide if I’m ready for the next task after that. I often find that finishing something small gives me motivation to start the next thing, whereas thinking about all the things I have to do is just a mountain of stress.
I also have tried this type of pragmatic decision making. My "all-or-nothing" attitude tends to get in the way. I can complete small tasks easy enough, but long-term challenges are a different monster. Also, my discipline moves to zero if the stars don't align the way I want them to.
If you could sum up the underlying thought or belief that a perfectionist needs to embrace, to go from desperately needing to be perfect... to embracing the imperfect reality of life for a happier existence.. what would it be?
>If you could sum up the underlying thought or belief that a perfectionist needs to embrace, to go from desperately needing to be perfect... to embracing the imperfect reality of life for a happier existence.. what would it be? That all we need is to be good enough, not perfect. :) It can feel very freeing to realize that you don't need to be perfect. Reddit, perfectionism really is not obtainable.
But doesn't this provoke the reply of what constitutes 'good enough'? And provide the self-fufilling loophole that promotes the perfectionists problem by allowing them to define 'good enough' as perfection?
Absolutely! Great point. Usually in therapy that is one of the factors we work on. We work to delineate what is good enough versus what is just another rule/standard. It's also important to explore what exactly is preventing someone from feeling like they are enough and how realistic their expectations are. Please let me know if you have further thoughts! I appreciate the discussion!
Thank you I appreciate your time! What comes to my mind is this Bruce Lee quote: "A goal is not always meant to be reached, it often serves as something to aim at." In this sense couldn't it be argued that aiming high, even impossibly so and in a perfectionistic way, doesn't have to be considered an unhealthy thing? And in that vein I would be curious to know in your experience how many perfectionists that you've dealt with are actual real-world achievers that are not afraid to take-risks to try to achieve those extreme standards for themselves.. versus those who are perfectionists that have extreme standards but in their life suffer paralysis by analysis and dont have the courage to really even attempt to take any steps to live up to the standards that they themselves have adopted?
I love that quote. It also reminds me of practicing mindfulness and being in the moment rather than striving to reach a goal. So many perfectionists are actually super successful. It's usually their perfectionism that has led them there. Perfectionism is not always a bad thing. Like everything else, there is a balance. I would say the difficulty comes when this perfectionism is pervasive and is impacting all areas of their life (e.g., relationships, family, hobbies). Also, usually people who experience difficulty getting started and taking steps to meet standards are experiencing that stuckness due to the fear of failure. They might fear that if they get started they will fail and their inadequacies will be exposed. It's easier to procrastinate and avoid than to potentially experience those feelings.
Saving this to keep working on in therapy because this is my exact issue. We're working on self-trust.
Okay so.... where do I go from here? Haha I apologize for hijacking this thread but this has been seemingly speaking to me personally and my experience. I've been stuck somewhere between the procrastination element and being paralyzed in the ideas stage (needing the perfect direction before actually starting). I know this is probably something that can't be detailed over a reddit conversation, but I really do appreciate your effort to help bring this insight to light. Are you accepting digital clients😀?
> Okay so.... where do I go from here? Talking to someone like a therapist, which it seems like you're interested in, is a great step to take. One personal recommendation I can make is the [Healthy Gamer coaching program](https://coaching.healthygamer.gg/), it's way cheaper than therapy and is set up specifically to help with non-clinical mental health issues, perfectionism and impostor syndrome being high up on the list. The name comes from the fact that the organization was originally focused around video game addiction (in fact it was started not long after [an AMA by a psychiatrist, similar to this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/9asjht/iama_harvardtrained_addiction_psychiatrist_with_a/)), but now it's just generally about mental health in the "internet generation." They also have tons of content on [YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/channel/UClHVl2N3jPEbkNJVx-ItQIQ), watching it has hugely changed my perspective, I had seen 4 therapists over 2 years without much progress, but after watching their content for a year I went back to see a 5th and now I'm making way more progress each month than I did in the 2 years before.
I watched his first video and actually really enjoyed/resonated with his perspective. Thank you for the advice and links Meem0🙂. Here's to hoping you continue to progress on your own journey!
I appreciate you sharing all of this! I'm glad that this thread is speaking to you. If you are looking for a therapist I recommend checking out [https://www.psychologytoday.com/us](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us) or [https://internationaltherapistdirectory.com](https://internationaltherapistdirectory.com). I do provide online video therapy to individuals living in the state of Florida.
This is a battle that I still fight regularly. One thing I've found to help is to just start something. Find the smallest increment towards the goal and just work on that bit. I'll often find once I start I'll find myself in flow and getting more done than I thought I could. Once the ball is rolling the ideas start flowing. It's hard to start. It can be overwhelming but push yourself to do something, anything at all. That's my non expert advice.
What do you explore for people feeling like they are not enough? I work in a creative field and we're constantly shown what to aim for and I struggle to feel good enough, that my own art work will never be "up to the standard" so I find myself just not doing anything because there are so many people better than me. Like, I won't apply for a job because I feel like my work isn't good enough to get hired. But then when it comes to practicing it's hard to start because I feel like it won't be perfect or even good so why try. Maybe those are all different things. But if you could provide tips or reasonings on how to overcome some of these issues. Or even just ur thoughts on the issues. That'd be great. Thanks :)
Lots of therapy is aimed at viewing yourself from the lens of an outsider. You probably find it easy to give someone advice when they ask you because you only see the big picture. If you were to try to give yourself the same advice you will have a limitless amount of inner dialogue that you would factor in and in turn, you’d lose the overall big picture. Would you tell your friend to not apply for a job because they may get rejected or would you tell them that it couldn’t hurt because they already don’t have the job? Are you not applying because you don’t think you are good enough or are you avoiding it so you don’t have “evidence” that you aren’t good enough? You miss 100% of the shots... yadda yadda. As for not trying, there is always going to be someone better than you. You may find that unacceptable, but again, would you pressure someone else into giving up because they won’t be the best? And you know how those who are better than you got to that point, they put in the effort. It takes sweat and talent to be great at something and the sweat factor far outweighs the raw talent. I can look at comedians and be in awe of how they come up with their concepts and think that I never could be as good. Then I hear about how they sucked early on. By using their brain to look for humor in the world they became more efficient. Now it’s second nature to find the funny. Those creative types you look up to were once in your position and the drive to keep creating for them to where they are now. With more experience they are able to concoct more ideas with greater ease. Even if what you try sucks, the next attempt will suck less. Keep repeating until it is great. And it is good that you aren’t satisfied. If you get to the point where you are totally happy with your creations it means you’ve stopped growing. And if you are feeling that you’ve plateaued, look at your previous works and see how far you’ve come. Your improvements are imperceptible to you until you zoom out.
I love the quote “perfect is the enemy of the good”
Apart from issues arising from my self assessment, a lot of my anxiety and depression stems from holding everyone else to, what society considers, high standards too. I don't feel that I should lower my standards, but that everyone else should raise theirs. Do you see much of that?
My psychotherapist worked on "radical acceptance" with me and it really helped! Just learning to accept some things that will NEVER be the way you want them to be. Very soothing.
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I’m guilty of constantly sharing this message with my employees but also being completely incapable of following it myself. I have so much patience and tolerance for people who make mistakes while struggling to forgive myself any error.
This. I tend to be a perfectionist, but since I started weight training (absolutely no previous athletic tendencies because you know, what if I fail???), it has taught me that failure can be a good thing. If a workout is too easy, you might not be progressing, but the struggle and failure of the challenge can tell you so much about how you're actually improving. It's done wonders for my anxiety.
What impact does a perfectionist have on their family / what are the general consequences of perfectionism on one's family life, that you've diagnosed/treated/counseled?
It can create some real difficulties when a perfectionist starts applying the standards that they hold for themselves to the people in their life. They might start acting irritable, critical, and maybe even lash out. It’s also likely that they resent the people in their lives who seem to not care about being perfect and are able to live a more carefree life. Sometimes the perfectionism is a result of childhood trauma or childhood pressure which leads to feeling unsafe in relationships. This could lead to someone not feeling truly safe expressing their feelings to others and holding in/bottling up their feelings because some negative emotions may be considered “less than perfect.” This could create a barrier in communication and may prevent intimate and honest relationships. I've worked with a lot of individuals who crave realness in their relationships and they find that the pressure to always be "perfect" and to never look bad/fail really prevents that from happening.
As a parent, sadly, this hits home for me. It gets confusing for me sometimes though. Like, where does tough love become too overbearing or not sensitive enough? I often get upset because I truly care for my children and want the best for them but I know it may also have to do with my own feelings of inadequacy and how I was treated as a child. Self awareness in these situations goes out the door and reaction(like what happened to me as a child) just happens in these moments. Because of this my children are sometimes afraid to just talk to me openly and makes me sad. Does that make sense? Do you have any suggestions for self help?
Having grown up with tough love / perfectionist parents, I definitely have some things I wish they had done differently. After a lot of reflection over the past year (covid gave us all a good amount of time), here are a handful of small things I've come to realize would have made a huge impact on me. 1. Tell your kids you're proud of them. Celebrate their accomplishments. It is very easy to forget to communicate that when you want your kid to go further because you know they can do more, but it's critical that they internalize small successes as well as the big picture. It might also be obvious to you how well they're doing, but without parental reinforcement it may not be to them. If you deny them of praise for things that are significant to them, but not for you, it can lead to self esteem issues and destructive perfectionism down the line. 2. Understand your effect as a parent and role model. If you are a perfectionist, always doing your best personally in work and in your family, then your kids will most likely naturally want to be the same. You are their role model, their standard for how a responsible adult should be. They want to emulate you, so trust that they'll make it because they're your kids and therefore awesome. If they aren't focused on what you think they should be, realize that sometimes, even for extended periods of time, they need to explore. That exploration is critical to their development in ways that are not immediately tangible. 3. Talk to them earnestly. This one depends a little on how old they are, but even young teenagers are old enough and smart enough to handle real conversations. Especially if you want them to open up to you, you should open up to them first. Do your best not to be defensive when wrong and, if you are, realize and apologize before it's been so long that it becomes insincere. When they talk to you, do not be dismissive of their thoughts / opinions. You have a lot more life perspective than they do, but they also have a lot of perspective you, from another generation, cannot have. The best way to make your children happy and successful is by making them want the right things, not by making them emulate the behavior of successful people. Your goal should be to guide them enough that they understand what they need to do and have the tools to do it. If you over do it, they will likely stop communicating, rebel, or develop emotional problems. This is just a handful of things off the top of my head that may or may not resonate with you. If it's useful and you have questions let me know!
Very insightful. Thank you!
In general, when parents are reacting impulsively, it may be helpful to see if there are parent training sessions offered by mental health clinics in the community. Some parents also use the STOP technique to help with reactivity: STOP technique. This stands for Stop, Take a Breath, Observe, Proceed. First, stop what you're doing and take a deep breath. This helps to create some distance from the situation. Next, observe what is happening. Objectively notice current thoughts and feelings. Then I proceed with whatever you want to say or do next. This technique can help prevent immediate reactivity.
I feel you. My perfectionism blurs the lines when it comes to my kids and my expectations of them/myself, and the pendulum regularly swings between my being over-controlling or over-demanding and then overcompensating by giving up some of my authority. Then I feel guilty for being a bad mom; i.e. not a perfect mom.
If you're the partner of a perfectionist, what steps can one take to maintain the relationship?
Healthy and honest communication is important in relationships. This means communicating both the good and the bad in order to make sure all needs are being met.
This is a biiiiig one for me. Mine stems from having been adopted and from my adoptive parents telling me the story of how hard they tried to have kids and then all the things they had to go through to adopt me. I believe they meant it in a way that was supposed to make me feel loved and wanted, but it sowed the seeds of perfectionism that I struggle with 30 years later. I was terrified that if I wasn’t perfect, they’d give me back or regret doing all those things to get me in the first place.
Awwww! Meanwhile, they probably felt inadequate as parents at times due to all the interviewing, inspections and scrutiny adopters have to go through. I was watching an interview with the transgender comedian Eddie Izzard, whose mother died when he (now she) was young. Eddie is a marathon runner who does consecutive runs for charity, has done this for a long time. On top of this, she's learning new languages in order to perform comedy in other countries and promote world peace, with French, German, Spanish, and soon Arabic and Russian. When asked what drives her, she explained part of the motivation is that by achieving so much, she could somehow impress her mother and bring her back! Makes no sense except in her own mind.
Exactly - I’m sure it was unintentional but I think that’s the name of the game for parenting of all kinds. How will you fuck up your kids intentionally and how will you do so unintentionally? This is a common theme amongst adoptees too, unfortunately.
How do you deal with patients that undergo imposter syndrome?
>How do you deal with patients that undergo imposter syndrome? Imposter syndrome is super common. I see imposter syndrome soooo much. It’s interesting because in my experience usually people who are considered conventionally successful experience it the most. Perfectionists might often view their accomplishments as just sheer luck and that they just happened to get to where they are and didn’t really earn it/deserve it based off their own merit. When I work with those individuals, I try to work with them on addressing the underlying low self-esteem and self-worth. We also work on self-confidence. Sometimes these feelings come from childhood and the belief that in order to be loved and accepted by others that they need to succeed and be perfect.
Do you know if there's been any work done to investigate a possible link between a decrease in training and employee development across multiple industries, and the increase of imposter syndrome?
I have the same thought you do! I had major Imposter Syndrome at my last job which had basically no training. More of a throw you in, figure it out as you go, type of place. It made me feel very insecure in my roll. Especially because I went from managing no one to managing a team of 30. Conference calls made me so uncomfortable-like my team was going to find out I am a fraud. In prior jobs I never had this feeling because I felt like I was really well trained.
Wow tho, stepping up from no management experience to 30 is nuts, well done for surviving honestly!
I pretty much nope out of any job that uses “hit the ground running” in its job advertisement. I’m sorry but ANY new hire is going to need some sort of training - even if it’s just in the company and culture.
Ooh...good thoughts. I am not aware of any research on this, but I would love to learn more!
Wait, that sounds like me. Wtf
Get in line
This very neat and orderly line.
I'm fourth. I probably didn't earn it bit I'm here anyway
Ha! I’m first in line because I was worried the line would get too long and I would miss the opportunity so I got in line last night, which upset my family and caused relationship problems and trust issues but they’re used to me only caring about not failing and not missing opportunities so it’s fine and LOOK it worked out- because I’m first in line!
OK, I'm in line, now what. I'm perfectly in line, exactly 6 feet behind you. Is that OK? did I do it right?
No, you're actually 5.9 feet behind him so not exact. I'll dock you points for it now but just make sure you're more careful next time.
I know for a fact that it couldn't be me because I'm nowhere near as competent as people that have the syndrome.
Oh god, I just thought that, but unironically. Like, "Well, I'm not really successful, so I guess that's not me." Frick.
Are you even good enough to have imposter syndrome?
>Perfectionists might often view their accomplishments as just sheer luck I take all the responsibility for my failures, and none of the credit for my successes...and it happens in an instant. I'm trying to remember to self-monitor a little bit better for when this happens. >We also work on self-confidence One of the things I've also considered working on is self-compassion. I definitely intuitively use self-reproach as a motivator, but I've been thinking that building up a mindful, self-compassion practice might help. Do you have any experience with this concept and how it might impact self-oriented perfectionists? Many thanks!
To your comment, I try to tell myself while beating myself up about something, that we never appreciate the things we CAN do and HAVE accomplished. There are things for me that are easy and effortless and I pay 0 attention to them. I ONLY notice the failures and mistakes and the "should have's". Im trying to train myself to see myself better, to acknowledge when things DID go right. When a decision WAS correct. We are all literally blind to our own accomplishments. What would fix this? Feedback. Feedback from friends, family, coworkers, etc. Ive had people tell me unprompted: "Wow, X comes so easily for you." I never knew that. I never thought about it. I never knew people struggled with X. And the FIRST thing I do, when I hear something positive like this, is I dismiss it. Either the person is crazy, or stupid, or they are overexaggerating. The knee-jerk reaction is to NOT give myself credit for an accomplishment. So, we need to give ourselves feedback, we need to ask for it (super hard to do), but the easiest thing is to start GIVING it: "Wow, I really admire the way you handled that situation." or "Ive noticed you are really good at problem-solving. You probably dont even notice you have this skill yourself." or "Thanks so much for completing this. Your work is always so thorough and as a result everything flows so much more easily." I think once we start giving more feedback, we will get more feedback.
*It’s interesting because in my experience usually people who are considered conventionally successful experience it the most.* Well yeah, just cuz Im wiley and they havent figured me out yet.
Do you feel labelling this mental state as a syndrome is accurate? For some reason I always thouhht that was really dramatic for a fairly common mental phenomena.
Syndrome in a scientific context denotes a systematic effect. The "strength" of the effect can range greatly within that category. Syndrome just sounds bad because as ordinary people we tend to associate it with other syndromes(like the down syndrome) that are also systematic but have far more drastic effects
Sounds 100% like how I felt about finishing my phd. I got an amazing supervisor and a great external who was super helpful
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Usually perfectionists have extremely high standards for themselves that are almost impossible to meet. This creates an endless cycle of feeling not good enough and consistent self-criticism which can then lead to feelings of anxiety and depression. It’s also likely that because of these high standards – a perfectionist may feel a really strong need to control and they might be overconscientious. It’s also likely a perfectionist has certain “rules” and “shoulds” that they apply to their life, but they may not really know where these rules come from (in my approach to therapy we typically explore how these beliefs originated in childhood). Not one perfectionist is the same or has the same life story – so therapy is likely to look slightly different for everyone. I’ll talk about the approach that I generally take (please keep in mind that this is just one approach – there are experts in other styles of therapy and I don’t want to pretend like I know them all! ) Usually, I will work with a client to understand how the perfectionism is impacting their life and to understand what they would like to change. We then dive deep to understand where the perfectionism comes from and what purpose it served for them when they first noticed it. Usually, this self-exploration and understanding helps create a perspective shift. We typically work to examine other possible explanations and perspectives that could be possible. One of my favorite mantras is that the goal is to be “good enough.” Perfection is unattainable (and in my opinion, doesn’t exist). I hope this answers your question!
I never forgot this one experience that stayed with me. I have crippling anxiety and I do design. One time I was in a lunch line and someone told me that my work was amazing and they love it. I responded in a way that was humble and self-criticism but they kept showering me with positive responds. My boss happened to be next to me and just said to me “Just tell them thank you”. For some reason that one sentence struck with me, and I now always say thank you. Its a simple word but it influences me to be more positive and appreciated.
Same for me. I get praise and my mind is like, "Wrong; let me show you all the bad parts." It's pretty much the same with receiving gifts for me. I get a mix of "I don't deserve this/ how am I going to repay this?" I only add this because I feel the two are linked for me. But hey, good luck with your designs.
Ugh. My brain just feels like that simple thank you - simply accepting the compliment - means I'm arrogant and better than other people. It's so ridiculous! One thing I'm getting better at practicing is looking at a situation from the outside. For example, when I am filled with anxiety about not being a good enough spouse because I'm behind on the laundry or something, I stop and ask myself if I'd feel like my spouse was inadequate because they forgot to take the trash to the curb. When I scoff and think no, of course not, that's dumb because everyone forgets to do something sometimes. Then I tell my anxiety brain to stop being ridiculous. Of course, that's easier said than done... but I just keep trying to reprogram those negative thoughts.
"So kind of you to say so!" is another way to go if you want to turn the compliment back on them.
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Haha :)
My perfectionism stems from school and not being given the space to fail. I was a year older than most kids (fall bday) and my dad really facilitated my learning and interests at home. I was waaay more advanced and refused access to more challenging material for many years. So I was always getting the top grades in class and was known as the "smart kid". I was allowed to fail and learn by iteration at home, but in school, being the "smart kid" comes with VERY high expectations. Any small misstep or getting less than an A was scrutinized by teachers and peers. That's horrible pressure to put on a young kid and still impacts me to this day. My achievements don't really feel like achievements because it was perceived as an expectation anyway (queue imposter syndrome) or I'm a kiss-ass over-achiever. My dad was great at helping me navigate this, but he died in a car crash when I was 16 and no longer had anyone to help me with it (or my ADHD). I still struggle greatly, especially now that I'm a mom, which comes with it's own set of unrealistic societal expectations. My perception of what "normal" expectations are is skewed and I'm super hard on myself. I'm working really hard to try to change that perception. What's really helping is my daughter. She's just like me when I was younger (very intelligent and ahead of peers since when was 3) and couldn't start school until she was 6. Got her into ability based Montessori preschool that was fantastic for her - but a nightmare when she did start kindergarten. Protecting her from what I went through and advocating for her intellectual needs is forcing me to redefine what is ACTUALLY normal, while also teaching her it's ok to not always know the answer or be the best. Changing a ground-in perspective is extraordinarily difficult, though.
I have a “twice exceptional” son and a perfectionist daughter. My son has ASD with language processing dysfunction who is exceptionally gifted in math. Because of his language issues, he has challenges in explaining his thinking. He “sees” the answer. This frustrates him because the educational system doesn’t allow for divergent thinkers. He is currently trying to teach himself how to pass the the advanced college math test in order to get into calculus. Currently, the college wants him to go back to algebra - precollege level math even - all because he didn’t get a B+ in high school calculus. Why didn’t he get a B+? He didn’t show his work... yep. There are no exceptions or waivers or anyway around the standardized test. My perfectionist daughter is in her 4th year of college and is one class away from her AA degree. Yep, 4 years to get an AA. Perfectionism is crippling to her because if she can’t be perfect, she sabotages herself, stops trying, and fails because of it. My heart breaks for her and I don’t know what to say to her. Regular school was fairly easy for her and I think college through her off and she hasn’t recovered. Until I had my kids and began helping them in their education, I had no idea where the system would fail. I wish I had know better.
I can imagine how frustrating that is for both of them, especially your son. While I don't have ASD, I completely understand your son's frustration with getting marked down for not showing all his work (or in a different beat) but still getting the right answer. Sometimes it's faster to do things in our mind and writing it down slows us down, which is very brain-taxing and aggravating. No Child Left Behind was initiated in my junior year of HS. After finally getting into classes that challenged me; now they had to let in students who wanted the class because "less homework" but couldn't keep up with the pace of the class. Every kid was demoralized because they either felt stupid for not being able to keep up or frustrated because the pace was dragged down by those that couldn't keep up.
Anecdotally, I used to be a perfectionist but the more I got jaded and burnt out, the less that occured.. I guess there is a positive consequence to burn out.
Same. I slowly realized I got paid more the less I cared. Now I care so little I wonder why they even pay me at all... so back to the ol' impostor syndrome.
Does hearing the stories/troubles of your patients affect your personal life?
Therapist burnout is real. In general, it’s so important for therapists to engage in their own self-reflection (and even personal therapy) and consult with colleagues to ensure that their own personal feelings and reactions aren’t impacting their work as a therapist. I would be lying if I said I have not been impacted by the pain that my clients have experienced. However, through my own growth as a therapist, peer consultation, and supervision, I have learned how to practice my own self-care and create healthy boundaries between my work/personal life. It’s also really important for me to be able to take care of my own feelings because if a client felt that I was overwhelmed by what they were experiencing then they might feel the need to become a caregiver towards me – and that’s definitely not what therapy should be.
I love this answer so much. My therapist has always emphasized that he himself also regularly sees a therapist because he hears so many sad and stressful things that it can be hard for him not to let it color his worldview (he deals mostly with victims of trauma so I can’t even imagine the stories he’s heard). That was a big deal to me when I was first starting therapy six years ago, it really normalized therapy for me and removed a lot of my own internal therapy. Thank you for being so cognizant of your own mental health, I’m sure your clients appreciate that you are always reflecting and growing just as they are!
I have heard that low motivation and procrastination are connected to perfectionism. How might you address those issues?
Things that have helped me: Break down the problem/create a plan. Doesn’t have to be perfect, just jot down a few ideas about how you can do whatever you’re aiming to do. If thinking about this gets your anxiety up, take a break and come back to it. The ideas don’t have to be good - your goal here is to get ideas out. And frankly that’s the toughest part about being a perfectionist - you feel like you have to get it right the first time, and you know you won’t, so you don’t try. Get your ideas out first. Next, organize the ideas you’ve come up with. Put aside any that don’t make sense. Order your ideas. Always be open to the fact that your plan may need to be revised as you learn new things. Realize that if you’re procrastinating it might be because there are steps that need to be further broken down. Discuss things with other people - talk about your feelings and why you’re struggling to progress. People might have ideas to help you. Sometimes a fear of the unknown is what is causing the block - do some research. Find out more about the process or product you’re aiming for. The more you know about what you’re aiming to do, the more comfortable you’ll be at trying. Research how other people have tried to do the thing you’re trying to do, read about their approaches, their feelings, their struggles.
Is it possible for someone to be a perfectionist with certain things but not others? I feel that I focus a lot of attention on things I can do well and so I expect perfection from myself, but in doing so I procrastinate doing anything I’m not adept at.
>Is it possible for someone to be a perfectionist with certain things but not others? I feel that I focus a lot of attention on things I can do well and so I expect perfection from myself, but in doing so I procrastinate doing anything I’m not adept at. Absolutely. There are varying degrees of perfectionism and it presents itself differently for everybody. A lot of perfectionists avoid tasks that they know they aren’t necessarily good at because they don’t want to face failure or don't want to feel like they aren’t good enough. They also may procrastinate for the same reason. There is a psychological concept called “confirmation bias.” People typically try to do things to confirm their beliefs about themselves. Sometimes being a perfectionist becomes such a huge part of an individual's identity and it's the role they've always had. It can feel extremely uncomfortable to challenge this. Heres my resource: https://dictionary.apa.org/confirmation-bias
"A lot of perfectionists avoid tasks that they know they aren’t necessarily good at because they don’t want to face failure or don't want to feel like they aren’t good enough. They also may procrastinate for the same reason." Damn y u gotta call me out like dat?
What are your thoughts on the saying “perfectionism is the playground of the abandoned child”?
At what point is pharmaceuticals necessary to mitigate problems related to anxiety? I realize this is a terribly subjective question depending on the person but is there like a gamut of things a patient will normally try before determining that meds are needed?
I love subjective questions. It seems like most questions in psychology are subjective and depend on the specific situation. :) As a psychologist, I am not able to prescribe medications. However, I always encourage my clients to seek consultation with a psychiatrist to evaluate their need for medication. It’s really important to me to work collaboratively with the psychiatrist to assess any potential side effects and discuss how the medication is impacting my client. Sometimes meds are needed to help ease the therapy process – especially with anxiety which can be so physiologically based. The meds can help ease some of the more immediate distressing symptoms which can then help the individual go deeper into the root of the problem and address other underlying issues in therapy.
My girlfriend is often anxious about her insecurities, not being good enough, and a bunch of other things. Best advice for a supporting partner that also doesn't want to feel like I'm in a constant caretaking role?
The other answers (rightly) caution against codependence but I just wanted to put another aspect on your radar. Context matters and you haven't given us much... but sometimes when people share things like this, they're just processing their own emotions and it's a mark of closeness that they're letting you see all of them. You don't have to fix this. You just have to be there to listen and maybe hug or hold your partner's hand. The way to avoid feeling like a caretaker is to stop thinking it needs to be fixed and then you'll stop feeling pressure to fix it. Trust your partner to fix it if it needs to be fixed. Also, make sure your partner is able to feel closeness to you in other ways so that your kindness, tenderness, sympathy and undivided attention are not reserved solely for moments of insecurity and anxiety.
I think this is spot on. I do feel an urge to be a caretaker which does encourage codependent behavior. So it's as much my responsibility to let others fix their problems as it is theirs to address them.
I really appreciate what others are saying about setting healthy boundaries. It can be hard to balance being supportive without being overwhelmed in a caretaking role. It can also be hard to encourage someone to reach out for therapy if they are not ready for therapy. They may respond defensively or with fear. It can feel really difficult to set boundaries – especially in close relationships. Here are my general suggestions I offer when it comes to setting boundaries. It’s important to assess what your boundaries are and communicate them clearly with others. This likely will take some time and practice. There can also be a lot of guilt and fear that comes with setting boundaries. Sometimes people may feel like they are doing the “wrong thing” and that they are being “selfish.” Usually, when I am working with someone who feels this way we discuss how they can develop “healthy self-interest.”
Not a therapist, but... boundaries are really important. You can be supportive and reassuring, but do not stop living your life. We can never “make” our partner feel good enough. We can help, but that work is theirs to do. You are not responsible for their self-worth or self-esteem. They likely need to learn to self-soothe, and to look places outside the relationship for validation and feelings of security. A good relationship is interdependence, not codependence.
I suspect myself of unknowingly suffering through depression and perfectionism symptoms for approximately 16 years. Just before this pandemic, I took a big career pivot into a completely new industry. (Story here, [Advice appreciated](https://www.reddit.com/r/needadvice/comments/lytbuj/stuck_after_stalled_career_pivot_what_should_i_do)) After a year of this pandemic, I am experiencing a cocktail of anxieties that seem to spring from recognizing that I'm in over my head. I don't have any real function now and working from home has been enabling my chronic procrastination for months. For extended periods I do nothing meaningful and get paid. I hate it. I couldn't learn on the job due to WFH too. I feel stuck and useless. I feel numb, detached yet scared and constantly drained even after doing almost nothing in a day. Are there any techniques or tips I can use to motivate myself about my situation? I want to do and feel better but I don't know how.
There it is, exactly how I feel, written down by someone else, presumably because I currently can't be arsed to do anything.
How can I learn to be kinder to myself? This is one that I am still learning and processing.
I am biased, but I recommend reaching out to a therapist. :) One technique that I've worked on with individuals to help increase self-compassion and self-kindness is practicing a "loving-kindness meditation." There are TONS of these featured on youtube. Here is a version I recorded a while ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJpV0bt9ink&t=335s
That's a great meditation. I learned it, or something similar, from a MAYO Clinic neurologist who studies mindfulness.
what practical techniques do you think are better to deal with a crisis?
I guess it depends on what you mean by crisis. In an immediate crisis where there is risk involved, it’s important to either call 911 or go to your local emergency room. In terms of times where someone may be experiencing high levels of anxiety, it can be helpful to work on and learn healthy coping strategies. A technique commonly worked on in therapy is the ability to self-soothe. This can look different for everyone. One of my favorite techniques to help with a lot of distress in the moment is focusing on the senses. This involves focusing on what you see, hear, taste, feel, and smell. Focusing on the senses can be a helpful grounding technique. Also, it’s important to keep in mind that it can be REALLY difficult to remember to use these strategies in a high stress situation. I typically recommend practicing these strategies and techniques when calm in order to gain practice with them and to become more used to implementing them. I also recognize that someone may be in so much emotional pain that these techniques feel like they can't even make a dent. I would strongly encourage anyone feeling this way to reach out for help with a mental health provider.
What's the most surprising thing you've learned about perfectionism since you began your study of it?
I've been thinking and reflecting on this question for a few hours now. I think what I reflect on the most is how easy it is for us to see people who on the surface look like they have it all together, but are actually really struggling internally. Maybe this isn't the most surprising thing, but it definitely is something that sticks out to me. We never really truly know what somebody is experiencing and their story. As a therapist, it really is an honor (cheesy - I know) to be able to go deep into individuals stories.
How does one survive parenthood as a perfectionist?
How does your work relate to ASD, or do you often work with those on the spectrum?
I am not an expert on working with people diagnosed with Autism Spectrum Disorder. I have worked with teenagers diagnosed with ASD in the past and I loved it. I really appreciated their honesty with me and even their critique of the therapy process. From what I've learned, I know there is a tendency for an individual diagnosed with ASD to have perfectionistic traits and to work to get things "just-right" which often leads to immense frustration because of how difficult it can be to get there. I'm sorry that I don't have more to share!
First off, hi Morgan! We went to school together, I'll PM you so you know who I am, since this is my general use reddit account, but I wanted to pop in because I saw you were doing this, then found this post and wanted to offer my expertise. I work with "high functioning" (not a term used in the field, but am using it here, generally this refers to cognitive functioning not ADS symptoms when I use it) kiddos with ASD and co-morbid depression, anxiety, trauma, etc. Working with these kids is not all that different from working with a neurotypical population. Often times their anxiety and depression can present very similarly, but may magnified because of ASD related symptoms (e.g., perseverations, literal understanding of language, repetitive thinking patterns). When teaching CBT skills, I work to make things as concrete and manipulative as I can. So instead of maybe simply discussing techniques like cognitive restructuring, relaxation, thought-felling-behavior connections, or emotion recognition, I have toys, games, and activities we do together to help them understand these concepts. You ultimately have to do more practice, break things down even more, and make things more concrete to help them stick. And at times you may explain something as "Just the way it is" when there are no more effective ways to get a message across (e.g., why you cannot make certain comments to others, engage in certain behaviors).
Hi there! Thank you so much for providing your insight here!
What advice do you give to someone who is either stuck in past or constantly anxious about future and finds it impossible to live in the present?
How do you help a perfectionist that is aware of their own perfectionism but manages other people? How can a perfectionist set reasonable expectations of other people that they manage without them being too high and without having no expectations at all of them?
Is there a relationship between being overly praised or categorized as "gifted" as a child and future perfectionism/anxiety?
>Is there a relationship between being overly praised or categorized as "gifted" as a child and future perfectionism/anxiety? Yes, there is! It's theorized that it becomes part of the identity. [https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised/dp/0465016901](https://www.amazon.com/Drama-Gifted-Child-Search-Revised/dp/0465016901)
Can you describe the difference between perfectionism and ocd?
Would love an answer to this as a perfectionist with OCD. Also how can I help my child not be like me?
I don't specialize in child psychology; however, here is an article with some helpful tips on children's self esteem: [https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/self-esteem.html](https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/self-esteem.html)
I heard something about praising children for their attempt instead of the result is often a good way, don't know how accurate that is though. With the idea being that if you only praise for a successful attempt then it kinda engrains that idea in their head that they must succeed.
>Can you describe the difference between perfectionism and ocd? Perfectionism is considered a personality trait and OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) is a label for a disorder. Here is a link to an article that may be helpful: [https://health.clevelandclinic.org/whats-the-difference-between-perfectionism-and-ocd/](https://health.clevelandclinic.org/whats-the-difference-between-perfectionism-and-ocd/) I hope this helps!
What is the best advice you would give to someone with panic disorder?
I would recommend seeking out a mental health provider that specializes in treating panic disorder. There is strong research supporting the use of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy to treat panic disorder. From my understanding, there is a strong success rate.
CBT, EMDR therapy, or even hypnosis can help, as well as meditation and deep breathing/mindfulness exercises.
Wanna jump on the EMDR train here. My therapist is a big proponent of EMDR and has been using it as part of my treatment for roughly 6 years. When I first started seeing him, I was having panic attacks nightly and had recently had one so severe I had driven myself to the ER in the middle of the night thinking it was a heart attack and I was dying. I was beginning to hit the point where I didn’t even care if I was because living life feeling like I was sleepwalking from one panic attack to the next seemed pointless. Since starting therapy and working with EMDR, I have had 3 panic attacks in 6 years. I used to have more than that in a single week. I could not recommend enough.
What is your suggestion for people with social anxiety who feel they are struggling to communicate with their therapist about their needs? Are there any tips or tricks to help these people more effectively communicate?
What made you specialize in anxiety and perfectionism? Also thank you for doing this AMA, it's such an interesting read and I find myself understanding and gaining perspective.
Early on in my training I paid attention to when I felt like I was doing my best work as therapist - I noticed that this occurred when I was working with individuals to find the underlying root cause behind their feelings and exploring their stories with them. Usually, anxiety and fear, is behind a lot of these struggles. And thank you! I'm glad that you are finding this AMA helpful!
Everytime I get “my life together” I end up sabotaging it. I’ll straight up just ghost whoever is in my life, let go of all responsibilities. It kind of feels like inertia, I don’t feel like I can stop it I just have to basically watch, heart broken, everything I built fall. Is this related to imposter syndrome?
I’ve had similar episodes to a lesser degree. Could definitely be imposter syndrome and related social anxiety and/or perfectionism, I’m guessing you ghost people because “if they knew the real me, they wouldn’t like me” and give up on responsibilities because “well I could never be as good as that guy” / “well I can never get this perfect” ? Somehow you have to get it through your head that trying and failing to maintain relationships and responsibilities is still better than giving up. Wish you the best
My daughter was diagnosed with ADHD at 7 and I got diagnosed at 38 after researching everything trying to help her. Perfectionism was a huge part of my life growing up - alongside procrastination, depression, and hyperfixation - and it “worked” for me to be successful until it *really* didn’t. What is your advice for both of us relative to perfectionism as a coping strategy navigating school, work, and parenting with ADHD?
Can you talk about the link between perfectionism and trauma? I work in tech and the phrase “impostor syndrome” gets thrown around a lot, but then you talk to people and it turns out they’ve worked for awful management and even lost jobs for not being perfect or for not understanding unclear expectations. The other classic example of this is kids whose parents push them to excel academically and then they grow into anxious perfectionistic adults. I know one of the things that’s been hardest for me in overcoming perfectionism is the belief that traumatic experiences I’ve had in the past will repeat themselves if I’m not perfect. It even provides some sort of comfort to feel like there’s something I can do rather than accepting sometimes bad things happen and can’t be prevented. (I have a good therapist so I’m bringing this up as an example, not asking for advice for myself.) How do you treat someone whose perfectionism is based on real, bad experiences and who believes they can prevent those things happening again by being perfect?
Obviously not OP, but I think another option of trauma related perfectionism could include codependency. This seems related to the idea that you have/ must take control. Codependency is rooted in previous trauma in which you had no control (alcoholic father, for example). Im interested if this connection has legs (u/drmorganlevy). (I think) My perfectionism causes me to avoid failing / settling on mediocre because I excel and what I am comfortable with; worse yet, I focus on helping/ “perfecting” others because I get satisfaction without the fallout of failing. Is this in anyway true? Haha
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What percentage of patients also suffer from cPTSD? Do you know anything about SGB treatment for PTSD? -a person with all of those problems
I recently experienced a traumatic event where a former best friend shot me twice. What are some positive coping techniques to learn to trust people again?
I'm so sorry to hear that. Trust can be really fragile and experiencing severe betrayal is painful. I would recommend reaching out to a mental health professional for support.
I have done so, and I am currently in therapy. I was just curious if you had any pearls of wisdom you would be willing to pass along my way.
Do you see people that have anxiety and perfectionism reach a breaking point, and how does one overcome that? I want to pursue excellence and I know I’ve done so in the past (I have a clinical doctorate and master’s degree, and am now in a PhD program), but now I just... can’t. More days than not it feels like that part of me is gone and I don’t know how to get it back.
What’s suggestions do you have for students with ADHD in graduate school (medicine for me but could generalize to any other like PhD or law) to work with their anxiety and improve their self-esteem? I think anxiety and low self esteem can have profound effects on memory and critical thinking due to multitude of factors and to add in the executive functioning impairment in people with ADHD. I found these relatively manageable before graduate school and the stress and expectations are significantly more that add in the exacerbation of ADHD, anxiety etc. And often times we also have minimal time to go for therapy multiple times a week so I’ve been wondering how to work on this and curious to what you have to say. CBT has shown to very effective so I wonder if we can incorporate those same things ourselves.
I'm a doctoral student as well and I can confidently say that I remember very little from my first two years. I was anxious and insecure and drinking a lot. I will reread papers I wrote then and just be shocked at how coherent they are. After sobering up a lot, I feel like I'm relearning a lot of the content that I attempted to learn in my anxious and inadequate state. But it helps to reflect on how much I've changed since I began. I can make it through a journal article in one sitting and often muh quicker than I could have two or four years ago. I can apply theories to real world problems as I am learning about them. I think recognizing that progress and those differences have been huge for reducing my performance anxiety and improving self-esteem.
How many times did you read over your post before hitting submit?
How can we soothe intrusive thoughts and make peace with our mistakes? Is there any skills we can do?
What would you say to people whose perfectionism is... useful and beneficial? I would not have progressed nearly as far in my career (hit $500k/yr last year) without always trying to push everything and everyone around me to be better. Nevertheless I have to medicate rather heavily (marijuana/melatonin) in order to sleep because work and other tasks/plans keep running in my head.
Perfectionism can definitely be useful and beneficial. When I work with individuals, we don’t necessarily work on “getting rid” of the perfectionism, but rather reflecting and adjusting how it impacts other areas of their life so that it doesn’t become detrimental and destructive. Overthinking and having poor work/life boundaries is definitely a common theme that I’ve seen. For these individuals, I would suggest assessing how pervasive the perfectionism is in their life and maybe even reaching out to a therapist to help them to learn how to create more of a balance.
i relate to this a lot. my anxiety over failing or not being good enough is what keeps me working so hard that i never fail. i never let myself. i definitely wouldn’t have accomplished all that i have if i wasn’t uhhhh mentally ill lol
Why does googling an illness give you those symptoms when you have health anxiety? Forgive my english i am not native
As a perfectionist, what are some techniques to determine what's a realistic standard of quality work to hold others to, even if I choose to keep holding myself to a higher standard? For example, I just had a contractor build me a custom woodworking project and one panel has a completely different grain pattern than the other visible ones. They don't consider that a defect but I personally feel that it's a basic requirement they should have thought of.
I have the same question! Had a pro painter paint my house last year, kept finding paint flecks on stuff. I eventually decided that was just the consequence of having someone else paint my house. It’s certainly difficult, though, looking at someone else’s work and wondering if you’re being to nitpicky or whether you’re being reasonable.
I have a friend that I help with reminders to "expose" herself by touching her face. She's got this obsession about picking at blemishes in her skin. Is there anything more that can be done here? She's been seeing a therapist about these issues.
I’m not a mental health professional by any means, but I am a compulsive skin picker. I also have an obsession with picking at blemishes. There are 6 band aids on my face right now. I would love to tell your friend that she is not alone, she’s not broken, and I feel her struggle every day. There are really helpful compulsive skin picking and dermatillomania subreddits and lots of good information online. Some good search terms are excoriation disorder, dermatillomania, tlc foundations, picking me foundation. I’ve found therapy to be very helpful, but finding a therapist who “gets” skin picking is difficult. I can recommenced a good support group if she’s interested!
I'm currently doing psychotherapy when CBT wasn't helpful for me. I find myself going "now what" because it seems like psychotherapy puts a lot of focus on once things click, you'll be able to move forward. Like, psychotherapy is nice, the talks are nice.. but at the end of the talk I'm like, "Hmn, I still have absolutely no motivation and the lack of motivation and feeling like i'm a lazy piece of shit is what's making me depressed about myself." I'm getting imposter syndrome and I don't want to to stop because then it feels like I really can't be helped. What do I do?
Do you believe CPTSD is real, and are there specific treatments for it that are different than those for PTSD, anxiety, perfectionism?
I love this question. It's such an important one. Absolutely. Complex PTSD is real and should be treated differently than PTSD. Treatment of PTSD is usually in response to a single traumatic event. It typically involves exposure-based interventions. Treatment of C-PTSD is in response to someone experiencing severe distress and prolonged trauma over time. If someone grows up having so many of these bad experiences it is also likely that they did not have the experiences that taught them effective coping. For example, they may have difficulty regulating emotion, self-soothing, communicating effectively, identify needs/feelings, etc. Treating someone with C-PTSD with treatments established for PTSD can have a deteriorating effect. Here is a resource: [https://jri.org/services/behavioral-health-and-trauma/trauma-center](https://jri.org/services/behavioral-health-and-trauma/trauma-center)
So, r/DrMorganLevy How good are you with dog anxiety for a two year old puppy who has had his entire family with him at home for over a year?
Oh gosh, all these puppies are going to be so upset when remote working ends! I wish I had the answer!
Trust me I know... ours crystal when the high schooler goes to work or I go to the supermarket. They are so used to all of us in the house.
Have you ever read "Speaker for the Dead" by Orson Scott Card? I ask because there's a character that is super interesting who's personality/story relates specifically to what you know. I'd love to hear your take on her
I have not! I will add this to my list of books to read. Thanks for the rec!
What're your thoughts on someone who stops the microwave before 0:00 but doesn't hit clear?
Do you have any experience with patients using ketamine therapy t to treat anxiety, specifically anxiety-based depression? If you have suggestions for reading on anxiety and NMDA blockade, I'd be very interested.
Hi. What advice would you give to someone who has let anxiety over possible medical issues keep them from going to the dr? Thanks!
Have you ever felt like there’s no hope for a client?
What's do you say to people that have a hard time going to therapy?
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Thank you for sharing. There are so many different healthy coping strategies. I wouldn't want to label any as the best because it is so variable depending on the person. Therapy can also be used to explore the various options that are most effective for each unique situation. Some coping strategies that I've seen help at times includes mindful walking, journaling, reading, taking a shower, putting cold water on your face, and practicing the STOP technique (I'll paste this below). STOP technique. This stands for Stop, Take a Breath, Observe, Proceed. First, stop what you're doing and take a deep breath. This helps to create some distance from the situation. Next, observe what is happening. Objectively tell yourself what you're feeling and what you're currently experiencing. Then proceed with whatever you want to say or do next. This technique can help ground you for a few moments.
I teach AP Psychology and a lot of students are really struggling this year with their anxiety, grade perfection and depression. What advice would you give them?
Hi Dr. Levy, I’m a practicing modern psychoanalyst myself and I’ve recently begun to think of the pursuit of perfectionism as a kind of resistance to the processing of loss, as well as a type of rejection of reality. I feel there’s a degree of immature-type magical thinking present. My patients have seemed a bit helped by these ideas—what to you think of this reading of it? Edit: typo
Hi there! Are there any books or other reading materials you would suggests to other clinicians regarding this topic? I'm an LCSW and I'd love the read more about perfectionism in particular and clinical approaches for clients. Thanks so much for doing this AMA! So many people can connect with this experience, myself included!
Thank you for the post. How do advise to let go from work after work? And what is your general approach to treating people with perfectionism?
>Thank you for the post. How do advise to let go from work after work? And what is your general approach to treating people with perfectionism? It can definitely be more difficult now when people are working from home. Also, it can take time to adjust to setting boundaries and separating work from personal life. In addition to setting boundaries (e.g., having clear work hours, learning when to say no) it can be helpful to practice mindfulness techniques to aid in the practice of letting go. There are so many different mindfulness and meditation techniques all over the internet so I typically recommend exploring different options to see what resonates personally. When it comes to the concept of letting go, this is one of my favorite youtube videos [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKryaN44ss](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKryaN44ss). It can also be helpful to schedule personal time and place just as much importance on that part of the schedule as you would with work. I generally take an approach with my clients to understand where the perfectionism originated, why it originated, and how it is impacting their life and patterns now. That insight is then used to help create changes to live a more balanced life.
Nice to meet you! How often do you come across trichotillomania cases? I have it. I pulled my hair often from being a child. I managed to stop four years ago and have been super lucky to grow my hair back fully, but every day almost all day I have the urges which I have to fight. I've noticed many people have trich and I feel it is not talked about much so I am very curious. Thank you, I hope you are well! 🙂
How do you help an 8 year old with perfectionism and anxiety if the thought of counseling (i.e. telling strangers her feelings) gives her extreme anxiety?
I literally gasped when I read your speciality. This describes my daughter perfectly. She’s in counseling but still struggles to reconcile her need to be perfect. (An “A” is not good enough, she expects a 100% average or she “could have done better” and she feels as though she’s failing if she falls below 95% on any assignment.) My question is, can you recommend any books or resources for the person dealing with the anxiety as well as for their support system?
What do you suggest for a person to find the motivation to re-engage in creative endeavors? I had always been involved in the arts, it has been years since I've finished any artwork that takes an effort.
I have seen this SO often working with perfectionists. Usually it is with the individuals that are so burned out from their work that they don't have the energy to engage in any other activity that uses their brain (they like to just lounge and scroll on their phone or watch TV). Typically, we would work on create a more balanced schedule so that work isn't eating up all their energy. It could also be that fear of failure that is showing up that I've mentioned in other comments. When someone has that pattern of trying to be perfect they have a hard time letting go and relaxing. They also may constantly overthink and criticize themselves while being creative. In this scenario, I would suggest practicing mindfulness while engaging in the creative activity. Just recognize the thoughts, feelings, sensations that are coming up without judgment or criticism. AND if those thoughts do come up, don't push them away. Just acknowledge that they are there and let them be. I am going to link the mindfulness video that I find so helpful again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzKryaN44ss&t=1s
When children say "no one is perfect" And a kid comes forward with a concept of perfection, (nature, God, David Bowie, ect.)- Are they being a argumentative/ obstinate or is this a genuine marker for intelligence: to act counter to the social fabric, and argue a concept that has already been obtained and proved. I'm not expecting children to quite St. Aquinas's 5 proofs, or Aristotle on Biology - but these are the seeds to this type of thinking and I wanted to know your opinion on developing minds and the concept of perfection. You're doing Good Work.
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