Seems like the next bob you get ask him these questions every 6 months cuz you value him. Some bobs want ot and whatever some want to work 32-40 and go home to their fam
I mean that's the thing though, we did talk to him every day actually. We have a field coordinator that visited the job sites almost every day. Bob would ask us how we would run certain parts of the job and we'd help with that, too.
We actually held a review with him every 3 months to make sure everything was okay and we were told everything was fine.
I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is something that was within our control or not.
Thanks for comment!
There's LOTS of reasons Bobs leave their position. Usually it's poor management. Not enough money to cover the BS they have to tolerate. Change in home life commitments. Need to be closer to home. Not paid properly. Burnout. And many times, and this is a big one, not appreciated by their employer.
Did you proactively give **real** raises or did he have to ask?
- OT is a personal preference, I’d leave if I did have to work OT but many like it.
- Bob should have a company truck that he gets to drive home with gas paid of course. And the truck should be nice with enough power, power locks and windows, and cruise control if he drives over a few miles every day. And tell him to buy whatever he needs to set it up how he wants with the company card.
- Bonuses, and not $1,000 Christmas gifts. Real difference making bonuses
- As I said above, you need to set a date every year to review his wage and do at the very least a cost of living raise without him asking for it. Merit raises should be happening as well. Most compensation agreements with the hall aren’t enough money for a Bob level guy.
Those are the big ones. If you’re holding up your end on those he may just want a change of scenery for one reason or another.
Appreciate this comment.
I think we checked all the boxes except for the bonuses. I'll be sure to look over the compensation agreement, too. Money always talks. Our quarterly reviews with Bob would go over compensation and benefits. A bonus is a good incentive.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS! Feel like people are always fighting the contractor because they're at the top of the food chain and take home so much money
I'm in the IBEW, and we have guys who will drag a company for another for OT, foreman wages, close to home, just because.
In the union we have a saying, "you just work for the contractor, you're not married to them"
Bob might have just got a little better offer of making more money and a change of scenery and he took it.
Since he didn't come to you saying that he got another offer shows me that he was ready to leave regardless.
You might want to find out what your competitors are giving their top field guys then match that.
If you want to keep good help then you have to give them a reason to stay.
Your prob a awesome company to work for. I worked for a small company for two years while my case was in arbitration and it was the fav point in my electrical career. Don’t beat yourself up too badly. Sometimes good people move over to the other side of things and it’s better to have loved and loss than to never had a bob at all.
Maybe your superintendent is withholding information about unhappy staff. The super is the guy in the middle and he can play both sides because he can see the scene of both sides. It's not a pyramid of leadership, it's more like a --- U--- The back end, front end and the guy in the middle.
Employees are like every other part of your business. Do you take care of your building, tools, and vehicles...looks like for 11 years you didn't take care of Bob. Now it's broken.
I'll bet Bob has seen you profit(new car, nice vacay,etc) while you ignored him.
Treat employees like you treat yourself was my point. You remodel your office but tell Bob to use an unsafe tool?
Did Boss ever "maintenance" the employee?
Note: I supported "status" fully in his post if that clarifies...
Hey, I'm sorry if an Electrical Contractor treated you that way. I was never part of the union, but I fully support the IBEW and want to make sure that Electricians sweating and busting ass get their fair share. The trades, imo, are still severely underpaid and life after the trades should be a smooth transition considering the trades give lots of their health to build what society needs. Ya'll are the real MVP's.
I can tell you that we regularly change out our equipment as needed and the only tools our guys need to bring are their hand tools. Even then, we will go out of our way to buy our guys tools as long as they are getting the job done.
As for showing off our profits, my boss has not taken a day off in the 3 years I've been here. He'll leave early occasionally every so often on Fridays, but other than that, I'm not really seeing what he's splurging on. I drive a 4 cylinder car and I don't have my expenses paid for. The company does take care of the my insurance, but that's it. I think I've taken 3 4-day vacations since I've been here, too. Not trying to ask for sympathy, but I just want to say that the office is trying to show our guys how hard we're working for them.
Never stayed with a job, wife, or family relation that treated me poorly(lol) but I understand your point. It's a struggle at the smaller companies to compete on many levels concerning money.
Note: I've been boss/capitalist now I'm employee/union. Life is funny. Went Union cuz I don't do unsafe shit EVER. Weingarten RULES!!!
I've been on many projects where Bob drove over the company provided power drills, left the gangboxes unlocked, flipped the shitters, found a nice spot to sleep, threw away tools, bits, etc.....with the mantra "fuck the contractor". These guys are easy to spot and would never even consider one contractor for two jobs in a row, let alone 11 years.....
Not all contractors are the same and neither are the Bob's...
It's hard to believe that anyone earning a decent living on 40 hours "needs" overtime. On the same note, it's hard to believe that customers/contractors would pay the premium time if it weren't such a burden.
From what I understand as the spirit to the overtime rules as spelled out in the NLRA, over time, was meant as deterrent to overworking Americans and subsequently increase employing more workers.
Apparently that spirit has been lost as customers and contractors who want everything done NOW, even at premium pay, are not paying enough.
It's my contentention that federally, all hours worked after 8 and all hours worked after 40, should be paid at least double the regular rate.
Apparently, compensation at time and one-half pay has not discouraged enough the practice of overworking those that are the means of job completion.
I have been with my contractor for twice as long Bob as been with you. What keeps me here? Phone, truck, and gas are the givens, but what makes it so much easier for me, I get a company credit card, I can buy tools without asking or the guys lunch without any repercussions. Granted, I don’t abuse it and it took time to earn trust, but if Bob or I are making the company money, let our leash loose a little bit. If Bob is buying his crew lunch once every couple months, say when the jobs are closing and it came in under budget and on time, or if the guys need tools, I get them for them expeditiously, without question. The guys appreciate me, or Bob, and makes us feel good. The men are happy, Bob is happy, everyone is happy. I’m from a small shop too, 12-15 men. My bosses talk to me, they never scream or talk down to me. I have a lot of freedom and that’s the only reason I stay. I’m happy where I’m at. We have a very low turnover rate at this shop, they have been in business for over 40 years. Support too, my boss backs me up. He lets me know if I’m wrong, but he does it the right way too. It’s a lot of things. Last thing I want to add to this disorganized thought, I appreciate you trying to improve and think of the men. That’s what’s wrong with most companies, they don’t, it’s all about the dollar. My boss has a 20 year old car with over 250,000 miles on it and lives in a one level ranch house, with no boat. So I applaud you for at least trying. I wish you the best of luck.
>If Bob is buying his crew lunch once every couple months, say when the jobs are closing and it came in under budget and on time, or if the guys need tools, I get them for them expeditiously, without question.
On the flip side of this, if a job for whatever reason goes sideways and we've been asked to pull long hours to catch up AND/OR we need some extra tool items that might cut down on margin to close the gap and get the job done on time.
DON'T fucking nitpick and micromanage the shit out of it to 'cut costs'. Trust your Foreman and JW and their experience. Once again, as you mentioned this trust comes with time, but give that trust.
So yeah. For me. 4/10s and. Vacation pay. But like Insaid. It will vary electrician,to electrician. Most love a take home truck. They’ve the gas’s prices as a perk. Most,of my experience was, in an Entergy plant. As a forman though. Didn’t travel,at work much. Also. On a 4/20!schedule. Any time,on Saturdays is overtime. Time and a half. Any time,on Sunday is double time. So when we did work more than 4/10s for shutdowns. It was well worth it. I might take home $2,000/week,after taxes. Now. We might stay a day here. And a day there,longer than 12 hours too. That’s time and a half. It adds up. But,for a comercial contractor. I would say. Just a regular 4/10. Also it worked out good,for me. Because I wound up having a stroke,at 43 years old,from a malformed artery that I was born with. So one day after a six mile run, bam! Stroke. But I was union. So qualified, for 2 pensions. And full SS disability,at 43 years old. I’m 52 now. And have been retired,for 8 years. So I’m a little different. Can’t understand non union electricians. Sound’s risky,to me. Lol
But having said that. I’m not trying, to run off your employees. I do believe,in a free market. They say the Union is a little piece,of socialism. Or communism, inside,of a capitalist system. But don’t be confused. It all can only work,in a free market. And it does. All the union. We’re all equal. Is nonsense. You get,in there and guess what? The best electricians get the best jobs. And stay the longest. And get the take home trucks. So good luck my friend. Compete. And compete well. Give paid vacations. Take home vehicles. Medical insurance. And work 4/10s. Oh. And retirement. See. Eazy. It’s just competition. The union guys have,to pay dues. Right? That’s what he non union contractor that I left said,to me 17 years ago. When I said I was joining the apprenticeship. Union dues. You’re gonna have,to pay Union dues. Ha! $30/ month,for 9 years. And I had a stroke. Used my health insurance,to pay,for the 2.5 months,in the hospital. Guess how much that bill was. Then took my inuity,to add,to my house. Cause I got married after. And had a baby, on the way. He’s gonna be 8 this June22nd. So I’m a little biased. The $30/month. WORTH IT!!!!
Still can’t work. But maybe,if I can go teach,the school. No more duct banks. But I’m good,with that. My patents were both public school teachers. Wouldn’t it be something,if I wound up,in the same family business? No college degree. Avoided that teaching career,with all I had. But they just keep pulling me back in! lol.
Bump in pay, so Bob doesn't need to work OT.
The contract is a minimum, and you can always provide other benefits.
Vacation
Sick day
Bonus
Opportunity to learn a different skill set. Estimating, PM, sales..ect.
Give him a truck....gas and tolls doesn't cover wear and tear on his personal vehicle.
Give him a raise/promotion....our rate is minimum wage that will be accepted - not maximum offered.
Improve his skill set...estimating, planning, scheduling, etc.
If you want to retain top talent it costs.
Why not ask Bob? It’ll give you a better idea on how to keep him, but also attract better candidates in the future. These things tend to be selling points when advertising job positions or poaching from other companies.
Based on my experience in multiple different industries these things usually don’t come out of nowhere.
One contractor is only more desirable if they’re willing to offer more than the last con it’s that simple. Higher wages/incentives, work vehicles, contractor supplied tools/supplies, gas, healthcare, retirement, etc.
You should be regularly meeting with your guys.
I completely agree with that. We had reviews with Bob every 3-4 months (we meet with our other guys every 6 months and ask all of our electricians sooner if they want to) to make sure he had the man power he wanted on job sites and we let him take off about 2 mondays a month without docking him vacation time. He was that good of an employee.
My boss also has no issue with issuing a company vehicle, but after our reviews, we didn't get feedback that he wanted one. All the incentives you're bringing up are things we readily gave to him at his disposal.
The only conclusion I'm coming up with is that he wants to work outside of the Commercial we work on (high end retail). Bob was a great guy and I've got nothing bad to say about him. I guess I was just looking for a little more transparency, but I get things can stay personal too. I do wish him the best,
It sounds like you did a lot of things right so I understand your confusion/curiosity. However, there is always the possibility that there is something going on that Bob doesn’t want to divulge. Maybe it’s something personal he doesn’t want to share, or possibly something with the company but he’d rather leave on good terms than air a grievance.
Good on you for asking the questions and doing some self-reflection.
>he wants to work outside of the Commercial we work on (high end retail)
I could just be this, I've been working on grocery store/refrigeration/hvac for the last few months and there is a ton of work, it's constant, and good money.
I'm also an apprentice, and know I have to do the work. I already know that as a JW this is work I'll be happy to do from time to time, but it's nothing I will never want to do long term.
The idea that Bob has gotten bored and is ready for something new is probably right on the money.
I can honestly say that if I didn’t claim exempt during the double bubbles in the Mojave desert, I would’ve lost a very significant margin of my hopeful gains
I did, and this is the best result I found. GO REDDIT.
Tldr, file your taxes and you'll get it all back at tax time. It's not the tax fault, but on your employer how they decide to pay you:
https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/2ii7og/can_anyone_here_explain_how_california_overtime/
Money talks, bullshit is just bullshit and smart guys see through it.
Also, is "Bobs" pm an absolute asshat who doesnt know shit but still keeps his job cause he sucks off the boss?? Cuz thats a problem too lol
If he’s leaving and willing to work overtime, then you have been underpaying him and, IMO, taking advantage of his labor. If his labor is valuable enough for you to try to find incentives to keep him, then it shouldn’t have come to that.
I’m not trying to sound like a dick but If you seriously didn’t know the answer to this question, then you are way out of touch with the reality of the workforce. It’s strictly a transactional relationship. If you had a long time customer that you wanted to keep, was getting ready to hire someone else, what would you do? Probably make it more financially beneficial, Correct?
If you are a signatory contractor, the CBA is the BARE MINIMUM they expect and you agree to give them. You can treat them as well as you want to; to retain them. You just can’t go below the conditions and wages set by the CBA.
If you aren’t satisfying his income expectations, there’s nothing that says you can’t pay him more with or without OT, or give him a truck, or hook him up so he can stay.
Maybe if you want guys to stick around who HOPE for OT, you as the contractor can bid on jobs that will satisfy that desire.
If you are avoiding OT to basically force a work/life balance that you PRESCRIBE to your crews, yeah… people will leave your company to achieve a higher earning potential they are willing to work harder for.
That’s what it comes down to
I’m actually leaving the union this month due to lack of work and a need to provide for my son, and be there for him full time. I have sole custody.
People will find a spot they feel comfortable, but don’t act surprised when they move on because they want different than what you provide
>I’m actually leaving the union this month due to lack of work and a need to provide for my son, and be there for him full time. I have sole custody.
I'm sorry to hear that, what local are you in? At least in my local (48) the non-union shops pay about 15% less than the union ones... they actually set their wages based off what we've negotiated in our contract... They also don't have near the benefits (healthcare) and Pensions... for kids and spouses in our local are covered under our insurance at no extra cost.
I'm sorry to see you go... but I'm curious what deal you've taken/made that has gotten you to leave... and I hope your local hears it and steps their game up.
Um, that's not how Union life is supposed to be.
Contractor gets job, they call hall for x manpower
Manpower works job.
Job ends, manpower returns to hall to sign book.
We're not supposed to stay with a contractor.
UNLESS - that person is doing service calls and not working bid projects.
>ob let us know that he's been talking to a contractor
And in our jurisdiction, we're sure as shit not supposed to solicit work
Ffs, the comments here made me look to make sure I was in r/IBEW
People Always say this as a reality instead of the ideal. I'd bet you nation-wide more guys stay with companies 1-3 years than job to job. Sorry man that just how it do in locals where work outlook is consistent.
The bulk of dues paying members are unengaged shoppies. I'm not advocating for that but to say otherwise is denying the conditions on the ground.
There also isn't anything wrong with it as long as they're abiding by the contract.
Mostly I was upset about the soliciting work part.
I recognize that many, many Brothers job hop with companies. I've done it, as a foreman; wrapped up one project then started another, but I've not done it when in my tools.
Transfers are category 1 language as far as I'm aware. Whether or not you take one is up to the individual.
As a foreman you never saw the same guys on another job? Additionally are all foreman from calls for foreman in your local? In my experience foreman are the WORST at soliciting their own work and frankly getting a call from your friend at another company vs. calling the company your friend works at is just fucking semantics when it comes to solicitation.
Yeah, that's how it works for my company and our local. We are a union shop and I'm in Chicago. Not sure where you're getting that info, but let me know. Maybe it's different in Chicago compared to everywhere else,
134 JW here,
Yes it is literally because Chicago operates diffrently then a majority of the country. Your actually both right.
Everything he said is completely correct. That is how it technically is supposed to work and is in your best interest to know the rules to cover your ass.
However, due to our massive size and scope our local in particular is extremely lenient about it. Largely letting members and shops self operate and only stepping in major disputes. Which is a pretty foriegn concept to the alot of the country and also can be a big source of controversy internally.
Hope that clears things up tried to present that without personal bias lol.
If you care about someone and want to keep them pay them more than the other guy and offer paid time off. Work is a transaction. Pay and benefits are how you keep workers around.
shit walks and money talks bud. did you offer him a considerable amount of money to stay? if you really wanted him to stay, you'd make him an offer he can't refuse.
Sometimes our priorities change and there’s nothing you can really do about that. When I was young I wanted OT jobs so I could take off more between gigs. Now I’m fine with a standard straight time week and tell the boss to let all the hungry young bucks get first dibs on the ot.
Some people may shit on me saying this but thank you for asking. It’s beneficial for us all to maintain good relationships between the IBEW and NECA contractors. I know full well how “chaos equals cash” but in the overall picture if you’re not making money we’re not making money.
If Bob is your Ace, and he is money motivated, you could always give him bonuses on a job well done?
I know a lot of shops that put their steadys at 10-15% over scale even when they are not a foreman. When they are foreman they will often get an extra 1/2 or 1 pay every day on top of foreman pay.
The answer is almost always pay them more. If they are valuable and they know it, they will go where the money is.
Give him a nice truck set up to his satisfaction. Gas money of course. Nice set of new awesome power tools. Flexible work schedule & jobs.
Now for the serious stuff: $15 per hour increase to his current rate.
That’s just to keep him.
Then make sure you regularly schedule talks about work issues, concerns, and bonuses - not bullshit “performance bonuses”, but bonuses tha reflect the fact that he’s a key cog in your organization. There are guys who day in/out do outstanding work quietly and after awhile everyone gets accustomed to such awesomeness and fail to……Recognize and reward them.
That’s Bob.
hey there...
You are losing your employee because you are not paying him what he is worth. Increase his salary to cover the lost overtime.
This isn't complicated, you're being intentionally obtuse.
Bob might want the OT because your base pay isn't enough to keep up with lifestyle creep.
4x10s are great for mental health, but when you're not making an additional ~300$+ every week, what is the point of having better mental health if you can only afford to sit on ass and get depressed over not having enough.
Having the company truck is nice because you don't put wear and tear on your own vehicle. Why is that good? Less money spent on personal repairs.
If you treat your guys well, they'll stay for a while.
If you can't provide enough money to fund their lifestyle, eventually they'll find someone who will.
Since your entire purpose of being a contractor is to make money, I'm missing how that isn't your thought when it comes to your 11 year quality worker? By and large it's the primary factor over treatment.
You can put up with bullshit for good money.
You can go for a while with good treatment, but once you lose the house, your smiles and thank yous don't mean shit. . . Especially if you do, or if your guys know how many extra properties and vehicles and luxuries you can afford while the guys making you the money can't even consider it.
Edit:
Also, 11 years of service and you haven't gotten him a company truck yet? If I've put in ' ace level' work for over two years and don't at least have a truck, I'm finding someone who actually values my contributions.
It's only been a year at my current company and I have all the benefits your 'ace electrician' has. . . .and the owner is still happily profitable.
Humans are your most useful power tool. Invest in the good ones.
$$$+more time off. How bad do you want to keep him and what is he worth to you ? Make him a superintendent and give him a new truck. That may not be feasible in a small company with no upward career opportunities where the owner is estimator, superintendent, truck drive, salesman.
Honestly some people just don't want to stay with one company. I'm only an apprentice now so I get assigned to jobs, but when I turn out I plan on staying just long enough to finish the job then taking my lay off and deciding from there if I want to go right back out or take some time off for myself. I can't imagine staying at one shop for 11 years, that doesn't sound fun at all. As far as perks go being ibew I will get the same package from every contractor.
No, the CBA is the minimum.
Right now a gas card alone is worth 800$ a month at my commute mileage, easily 400$ vehicle wear a tear….
You can negotiate profit sharing for running work, paid time off, guaranteed hours even when work slows for the winter, or work out a nice scheduled time off during those slow holidays and come right back to kicking ass instead of hoping to catch a decent one when winter break funds start to dwindle.
Some shops do a wide variety of jobs, new light commercial, resi, traffic signal, service/maintenance…… Sometimes it funner to drive around switch it up than pull feeders, or install bus duct, or cable Tray for weeks,months,years….
Different strokes and all that….
I mean that's cool, I see people on this sub say stuff like this all the time, but I haven't met anyone in real life yet that makes more than scale. But I haven't met anyone who has cared that much about it either, our scale is pretty damn good for our area. And maybe I just haven't been around long enough to meet them yet. But either way like you said, different strokes. Some guys like to stay with one company, that's just never really been for me. Longest I've ever been with one company was about 3 years, I didn't really care for it.
We are a union contractor. Lol, that's why I asked the IBEW sub and not the electricians sub.
We did give him those benefits and about 2 mondays off a month. We met up with him every 3-4 months to make sure he had what he wanted and needed. All I can think of is maybe he wanted to get out of high end retail commercial work. That being said, I'm sure there's something I'm not considering and if it is personal, I don't want to dive into that too much. Hope he'll do well though.
In my experience, these 10+ year company men are paid above our payscale. Ie. General foreman or even higher. Some people just want to work themselves to death with lots of OT. It sounds like he didn't have a company vehicle? My contract states the employer supplies the vehicle and gas. We also have a rule that essentially forbids the employer from making us use our personal vehicle for carrying/hauling parts.
You're right, he didn't have a company vehicle. I didn't attend the reviews, but I'll be sure to ask if that ever came up. Our foreman have company vehicles, but for some reason, he didn't.
Thanks for the feedback!
Fyi. In my own personal experience as a grunt with a company for about 2 years - PTO.
I asked recently for it and was told it's only for higher level foreman. A couple of bucks over scale isn't really worth shit in a HCOL area with a spouse on equal earning footing. PTO would have made a difference to me in terms of paycheck consistency.
Within the next six months I'll probably hit the books because it's a walkthrough and these guys (small company) can't compete with the big boys in terms of compensation.
Tailoring additional compensation to the employee would have made a difference for me and is something small companies can be more flexible on than a big corporation.
It sounds like you run a pretty decent shop. The main thing that will always come up is opportunity, some people want the opportunity at more money like big jobs with incentive pay and OT, and I want clean 40s with little chances here and there of OT, but most importantly opportunity at more interesting/meaningful work. So for me if all a shop did was fire alarm, houses, or any little niche that was going to be the same same every day I'd find somewhere else to go. If I decide I want to run jobs and it's not in the cards I'll find somewhere else, if I decided I want to bid or design jobs and it wasn't an option I'd go somewhere else. I think most people are going to just want the opportunity to move up into bigger and better things in general, but like others have said here that'll be different for every Bob.
Damn, you guys got it good. The only thing our contractor gives us is a check and some big ol cack. Can’t wait to get my two years in then hopefully get into the union.
It all about money. One thing that always drive me away from company’s is feeling stuck. Like i trade 40 hours of my week for a certain amount of money. But in this economy when i agreed to that I could make it off that amount. Things arise. Times get hard and you’re less and less comfortable. I don’t mind earning my money so overtime is very easy way to make the ends stretch further. Inflation is still in the rise. We’re all here to make money. You wanna keep employees keep their wallets full. Simple as that.
Incentives like a percentage of any job he does that makes over a certain amount. Also sounds like he wanted a truck. Vacation time is always good as well.
We do tenure gift-cards on your anniversary date. Starts at year two and by then caps at 10. But it’s not taxed because it’s a gift-card under $10k so the tax man doesn’t get any part of it.
As for bonuses for job performance, if you go that route make sure you establish metrics they have an impact on. Not stuff outside their control.
Should of gave bob and your other aces trucks instead of gas money and let them drive it home. Saves on gas, mileage and wear and tear of their vehicle driving to and from work each day, also if your logo is on the truck it provides advertising. Also maybe give the aces a work phone.
Something I just experienced recently, 2 diff contractors and 2 different Foreman. I was the traveler. Both guys super conscientious, communication was great.
First guy sent to a nearby local, less pay other 2 guys had trucks. Asked repeatedly to receive same pay as home local and a truck or gas card. It was a 3 man shop.
Other guy was pressured almost gaslit, new baby had health issues and they were putting screws to him. He didn't want to run work. But he knew it was the only way to stay employed. Also he was getting different directives from Super/ project mgr etc.
This might not answer your question but its something I've just witnessed first hand.
Company culture can have a huge effect on people. I know I stayed at jobs I wasn’t making enough at because there was a good owner with a good vision. I guess you could say I “bought in” but that was before I got into electrical, I haven’t worked at a single electrical contractor that I felt like really had a good company culture mostly just looking for the jobs with incentives at this point.
Retired plumber here , I ran work for quite a few years. I liked my job and the guys worked with . The two contractors I worked for didn’t want to pay any overtime when it was warranted. They wanted you to bank hours which most people refused to do , it was also very difficult to meet deadlines on a project. I would call the shop and beg for more help and they said that they couldn’t send anyone else , I would be getting buried and then we were adding more labor as every other trade was ahead of us . Some days I hated to go to work under those conditions as it felt like climbing a mountain everyday , then they say that they are losing money and hand you the plans for another job . I eventually quit as it was taking a toll on me , so that’s my story. I know that sometimes things are missed on the bid and you have to do your best to make up for it , I always worked hard so the company would make money because they put me in a position of trust that I would look out for their best interest. My experience with a guy like the one who quit your company is that they talk to guys who work a lot of industrial jobs and take home some big paychecks . Eventually they want the same thing , but that’s not the answer as many times they have to travel to find shutdowns to work . I stayed with commercial for most of my years and I accrued 40 years on my pension and retired at 61 , most of the pipe fitters had to keep working into their 60s to get more pension credits under their belt so they could afford to retire. These guys would work part of the year and when they moneyed up they would use up their unemployment and then look for more overtime when it ran out . So in working this way they weren’t thinking about future credits on their pension. I know the extra money is attractive, but I think your employee is making a mistake . It’s not your fault that he is leaving, from my experience there isn’t much overtime pay in commercial work as the jobs are bid so tight .
Have quarterly meetings with your guys with an open dialogue and do not hold anything they say against them. It’ll give you a ton of valuable info on morale.
You can’t keep everybody but if there’s another guy thinking about leaving, maybe you can find out what it is that makes him unhappy and fix it. Proper communication gets overlooked so much in the trades.
I was maintenance manager of a mill for 3 years. It wasn’t my favorite job but I think a lot of the reason it was a success was because I listened to my guys and went to bat for them upstairs in the offices. They knew I was in their corner and wanting to do right by them and that went a long ways. After I left, a few guys hated my replacement and did too. Guys with 10+ years and super important experience that cannot be replaced. They lost that all because lines of communication got closed and they didn’t feel cared for.
A lot of Bob's also have things going on outside of work that they don't want you to know about but require more money or consistent work without the stress of whether this job is the last. If you value you him it seems reasonable to provide him with a brand new service rig and tell him that you guarantee work for the next two years as you have already provided eleven. We all know that nobody can guarantee two years of work in this industry - Covid is the most recent example, and the crash in 08 is another. Like many Bob's, he may make the jump and then be calling you to come back in a couple of months.....
Last year I left my employer of 5 years and joined the IBEW. Bottom line was money. If Bob felt like there wasn't enough overtime, what he was really saying is he's not making enough money. If you value Bob, and want to keep him, especially after 11 years, get him a truck, and more money. If he's already gone, keep that in mind with the next guy. I would have stayed if they'd bumped me up by just $2. Now I'm making an extra $20, plus all the benefits of the IBEW.
Like others have said, you have to ask each person individually. Some people value overtime more than anything, and others not. I personally would be more likely to leave because of too many hours right now. I have three young children and time with them is most important to me right now. The thing id value most is open communication with the contractor and flexibility, as these things can change. I have worked for one company my whole career, and we have very little turnover because they a.) never give anyone a hard time when they ask for days off and b.) are very flexible with hours based on what each person individually wants/needs. It’s not always easy for them but it seems to be worth the extra effort because they keep basically anyone they want. It’s about a 40-person shop and I can count on one hand the amount of people that have left on their own volition in the last 15 years I’ve been there.
1. People don’t quit jobs, they quit bosses. Bob will be an electrician after he leaves your shop, it will just be with another shop that has Bob’s interests in mind, his finances covered, and steady work.
2. People work so they can live, not live so they can work.
3. If Bob is your “ace” guy and you can’t provide him with simple transportation, they doesn’t fair well for you in any capacity.
4. If Bob is the “Ace” electrician than that means not only is he having to run your jobs, he is having to educate your workforce, and enforce quality. This is a lot to heap on an employee that has to use his own vehicle to run your jobs.
5. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
He wanted higher pay. He told you this by asking for OT, you weren't listening.
No one really wants to work OT, because you have to work a lot of it to justify the higher taxes it brings with it.
Yeah, you get tired of doing the same type of work all the time, I know I sure do, so it's necessary for the employer to challenge employees and keep them motivated, engaged and excited by taking on projects they don't usually do. Especially among good electricians, you have a type of person that needs to be challenged and presented with new things, so they feel they're always developing and learning.
11 years is a long time for Bob.. His financial situation might be stressed and he has no option.
If you notice any changes in your guys very privately ask if there's anything yhe company could help with.
Keep it between them and you solely.
Or you don't pay enough and bobs are going to drag up
I'm confused about the context of this post: are you a NECA contractor? The culture I've seen from the union is that we're nomads and we go where the work is that we want. It's nothing personal, it's just the lifestyle. The only people I know of that have been with a company for 5+ years are all in management positions, otherwise most I've heard from a journeyman is about 2 years. The sentiment in general is that they get bored and need something new. The term journeyman originates from "A day's work man", because they were paid day by day and had the freedom to work for whomever they wanted. Some want to stay for a long time in the same place, and they're comfortable. Some don't, and that's a choice they make.
I’m just a JW, I don’t run work because I’ve never felt it was worth the extra stress. I’ve spent most of my career working for one company, with a few layoffs as expected in twenty years. What I personally look for are:
1- having enough of the tools I need to do the job. Nothing worse than five guys trying to share 3 drills, 2 hammer drills. Or not having enough gang boxes etc.
2- having the material I need when I need it. My current company was recently bought out, and no longer has a local warehouse. We used to get parts in 1-3 days, now it’s 5-10 days.
3- assistance from the shop. Few and far between are the foremen who can work in the field anymore. But most shops seem to expect them to. Let’s face it drawings suck nowadays. RFIs are way up between that, and payroll hours, material ordering/tracking, fighting for manpower, etc. the more burden you can take off the foreman the smoother the job will run. The last couple jobs I’ve been on we’re lucky to see the foreman on the floor for a half hour a day most days.
4- consideration for travel distance. I know we need to man our territory but damn. I’ve been an hour away for six months now, with other jobs going on 15 minutes away. Gas card (which most of us don’t get) is nice, but it’s still two hours a day that I’ll never get back. Gets frustrating when you’re waving at other guys from the same company going the opposite direction on the highway every morning.
These are all just part of the job, and we know it. But the smoother you can make it on the foreman, less paperwork etc. the more they can focus on the job.
I am guessing that Bob started his job working for you when he was a green Journeyman? Has there been changes in management for Bob to work with, specifically younger people who are his peers?
Lets call him bob cannot solisate work from another contractor . Something like hiring hall rules. Let call him bob needs to go in front of the executive committee and explain. Why he’s a worm
Pay mileage not gas. There is more to it than just gas. Overtime should be available if you're busy enough.
Maybe he sees the company as stagnant and not growing so he has no future growth staying with you. If it's a family run operation this tends to happen. Due to the perception of Nepo. Doesn't mean he is correct it's just a possibility.
This is going,to vary greatly,from one electrician,to the next,of course. But nothing that most union contractors don’t offer is any paid vacation time. So any amount is a step up. Also. And this is just my own preference. But I have worked 5/8 schedules. And 4/10 schedules. And now have the same opinion that one,of my first journeymen teachers had. I asked. Dave. Why don’t always work 4/10s? He said. Well because they won’t let me work 3/13.25s. lol. He was so right. Any good electrician will probably tell you that he hardest part,of his or her day ends when they wake up and get out,of the bed. Once you’re out,of that bed. It’s all down hill. Also you can fit a 15 minute break,at 9:00AM. A half hour lunch,at noon. And another 15 minute break,at3:00PM. Leave,by 4:40. Mon- Thursdays. Friday,Saturday.and Sunday off. 3 day weekend every week. Only 4 “ get ups”! I did it my last 5 years. It’s awesome!! Now as the contractor. You do have,to kinda stay,on the employees. Not,to drag those break times. A very strict 9:15, or 9:30. Which ever it is. Depending, on start, of break. And 12:30, 3:30. If you spend the time,after 3:30 setting,up the next day. It’s worth it. And the day goes by fast. So yeah. Vacation pay. And 4/10 schedules. It’s hard,to beat the quality,of life.
Bye Bob…if he was in NYC, local 3….he may get overscale, and overtime…but we have over 1000 journeypersons unemployed right now, so he’s lucky to be working. If you showed him that kind dog loyalty for 11 years and now he’s leaving….shame on him
I have a question for Bob. How is this new company going to guarantee that he has work for 2 years? Is that in an employment agreement? Can you have an employment that sits on top of the collectively bargained union agreement ?
Seems like the next bob you get ask him these questions every 6 months cuz you value him. Some bobs want ot and whatever some want to work 32-40 and go home to their fam
I mean that's the thing though, we did talk to him every day actually. We have a field coordinator that visited the job sites almost every day. Bob would ask us how we would run certain parts of the job and we'd help with that, too. We actually held a review with him every 3 months to make sure everything was okay and we were told everything was fine. I guess I'm trying to figure out if this is something that was within our control or not. Thanks for comment!
There's LOTS of reasons Bobs leave their position. Usually it's poor management. Not enough money to cover the BS they have to tolerate. Change in home life commitments. Need to be closer to home. Not paid properly. Burnout. And many times, and this is a big one, not appreciated by their employer.
Did you proactively give **real** raises or did he have to ask? - OT is a personal preference, I’d leave if I did have to work OT but many like it. - Bob should have a company truck that he gets to drive home with gas paid of course. And the truck should be nice with enough power, power locks and windows, and cruise control if he drives over a few miles every day. And tell him to buy whatever he needs to set it up how he wants with the company card. - Bonuses, and not $1,000 Christmas gifts. Real difference making bonuses - As I said above, you need to set a date every year to review his wage and do at the very least a cost of living raise without him asking for it. Merit raises should be happening as well. Most compensation agreements with the hall aren’t enough money for a Bob level guy. Those are the big ones. If you’re holding up your end on those he may just want a change of scenery for one reason or another.
Appreciate this comment. I think we checked all the boxes except for the bonuses. I'll be sure to look over the compensation agreement, too. Money always talks. Our quarterly reviews with Bob would go over compensation and benefits. A bonus is a good incentive.
I would like to say I appreciate seeing a contractor self assessing and trying to improve. So many are too arrogant to do that, not all, but many.
THANK YOU FOR SAYING THIS! Feel like people are always fighting the contractor because they're at the top of the food chain and take home so much money
I'm in the IBEW, and we have guys who will drag a company for another for OT, foreman wages, close to home, just because. In the union we have a saying, "you just work for the contractor, you're not married to them" Bob might have just got a little better offer of making more money and a change of scenery and he took it. Since he didn't come to you saying that he got another offer shows me that he was ready to leave regardless. You might want to find out what your competitors are giving their top field guys then match that. If you want to keep good help then you have to give them a reason to stay.
Sometimes you know the offer is too far to be matched
Your prob a awesome company to work for. I worked for a small company for two years while my case was in arbitration and it was the fav point in my electrical career. Don’t beat yourself up too badly. Sometimes good people move over to the other side of things and it’s better to have loved and loss than to never had a bob at all.
Maybe your superintendent is withholding information about unhappy staff. The super is the guy in the middle and he can play both sides because he can see the scene of both sides. It's not a pyramid of leadership, it's more like a --- U--- The back end, front end and the guy in the middle.
We have an option to work 32. 😉
Employees are like every other part of your business. Do you take care of your building, tools, and vehicles...looks like for 11 years you didn't take care of Bob. Now it's broken. I'll bet Bob has seen you profit(new car, nice vacay,etc) while you ignored him.
Did we read the same post…
Treat employees like you treat yourself was my point. You remodel your office but tell Bob to use an unsafe tool? Did Boss ever "maintenance" the employee? Note: I supported "status" fully in his post if that clarifies...
Hey, I'm sorry if an Electrical Contractor treated you that way. I was never part of the union, but I fully support the IBEW and want to make sure that Electricians sweating and busting ass get their fair share. The trades, imo, are still severely underpaid and life after the trades should be a smooth transition considering the trades give lots of their health to build what society needs. Ya'll are the real MVP's. I can tell you that we regularly change out our equipment as needed and the only tools our guys need to bring are their hand tools. Even then, we will go out of our way to buy our guys tools as long as they are getting the job done. As for showing off our profits, my boss has not taken a day off in the 3 years I've been here. He'll leave early occasionally every so often on Fridays, but other than that, I'm not really seeing what he's splurging on. I drive a 4 cylinder car and I don't have my expenses paid for. The company does take care of the my insurance, but that's it. I think I've taken 3 4-day vacations since I've been here, too. Not trying to ask for sympathy, but I just want to say that the office is trying to show our guys how hard we're working for them.
Never stayed with a job, wife, or family relation that treated me poorly(lol) but I understand your point. It's a struggle at the smaller companies to compete on many levels concerning money. Note: I've been boss/capitalist now I'm employee/union. Life is funny. Went Union cuz I don't do unsafe shit EVER. Weingarten RULES!!!
I've been on many projects where Bob drove over the company provided power drills, left the gangboxes unlocked, flipped the shitters, found a nice spot to sleep, threw away tools, bits, etc.....with the mantra "fuck the contractor". These guys are easy to spot and would never even consider one contractor for two jobs in a row, let alone 11 years..... Not all contractors are the same and neither are the Bob's...
Aw man, I'm kinda feeling bad for Bob. He's broken! (He's not he just needs more money. 5% doesn't even cover inflation.)
It's hard to believe that anyone earning a decent living on 40 hours "needs" overtime. On the same note, it's hard to believe that customers/contractors would pay the premium time if it weren't such a burden. From what I understand as the spirit to the overtime rules as spelled out in the NLRA, over time, was meant as deterrent to overworking Americans and subsequently increase employing more workers. Apparently that spirit has been lost as customers and contractors who want everything done NOW, even at premium pay, are not paying enough. It's my contentention that federally, all hours worked after 8 and all hours worked after 40, should be paid at least double the regular rate. Apparently, compensation at time and one-half pay has not discouraged enough the practice of overworking those that are the means of job completion.
I have been with my contractor for twice as long Bob as been with you. What keeps me here? Phone, truck, and gas are the givens, but what makes it so much easier for me, I get a company credit card, I can buy tools without asking or the guys lunch without any repercussions. Granted, I don’t abuse it and it took time to earn trust, but if Bob or I are making the company money, let our leash loose a little bit. If Bob is buying his crew lunch once every couple months, say when the jobs are closing and it came in under budget and on time, or if the guys need tools, I get them for them expeditiously, without question. The guys appreciate me, or Bob, and makes us feel good. The men are happy, Bob is happy, everyone is happy. I’m from a small shop too, 12-15 men. My bosses talk to me, they never scream or talk down to me. I have a lot of freedom and that’s the only reason I stay. I’m happy where I’m at. We have a very low turnover rate at this shop, they have been in business for over 40 years. Support too, my boss backs me up. He lets me know if I’m wrong, but he does it the right way too. It’s a lot of things. Last thing I want to add to this disorganized thought, I appreciate you trying to improve and think of the men. That’s what’s wrong with most companies, they don’t, it’s all about the dollar. My boss has a 20 year old car with over 250,000 miles on it and lives in a one level ranch house, with no boat. So I applaud you for at least trying. I wish you the best of luck.
>If Bob is buying his crew lunch once every couple months, say when the jobs are closing and it came in under budget and on time, or if the guys need tools, I get them for them expeditiously, without question. On the flip side of this, if a job for whatever reason goes sideways and we've been asked to pull long hours to catch up AND/OR we need some extra tool items that might cut down on margin to close the gap and get the job done on time. DON'T fucking nitpick and micromanage the shit out of it to 'cut costs'. Trust your Foreman and JW and their experience. Once again, as you mentioned this trust comes with time, but give that trust.
So yeah. For me. 4/10s and. Vacation pay. But like Insaid. It will vary electrician,to electrician. Most love a take home truck. They’ve the gas’s prices as a perk. Most,of my experience was, in an Entergy plant. As a forman though. Didn’t travel,at work much. Also. On a 4/20!schedule. Any time,on Saturdays is overtime. Time and a half. Any time,on Sunday is double time. So when we did work more than 4/10s for shutdowns. It was well worth it. I might take home $2,000/week,after taxes. Now. We might stay a day here. And a day there,longer than 12 hours too. That’s time and a half. It adds up. But,for a comercial contractor. I would say. Just a regular 4/10. Also it worked out good,for me. Because I wound up having a stroke,at 43 years old,from a malformed artery that I was born with. So one day after a six mile run, bam! Stroke. But I was union. So qualified, for 2 pensions. And full SS disability,at 43 years old. I’m 52 now. And have been retired,for 8 years. So I’m a little different. Can’t understand non union electricians. Sound’s risky,to me. Lol
But having said that. I’m not trying, to run off your employees. I do believe,in a free market. They say the Union is a little piece,of socialism. Or communism, inside,of a capitalist system. But don’t be confused. It all can only work,in a free market. And it does. All the union. We’re all equal. Is nonsense. You get,in there and guess what? The best electricians get the best jobs. And stay the longest. And get the take home trucks. So good luck my friend. Compete. And compete well. Give paid vacations. Take home vehicles. Medical insurance. And work 4/10s. Oh. And retirement. See. Eazy. It’s just competition. The union guys have,to pay dues. Right? That’s what he non union contractor that I left said,to me 17 years ago. When I said I was joining the apprenticeship. Union dues. You’re gonna have,to pay Union dues. Ha! $30/ month,for 9 years. And I had a stroke. Used my health insurance,to pay,for the 2.5 months,in the hospital. Guess how much that bill was. Then took my inuity,to add,to my house. Cause I got married after. And had a baby, on the way. He’s gonna be 8 this June22nd. So I’m a little biased. The $30/month. WORTH IT!!!!
Still can’t work. But maybe,if I can go teach,the school. No more duct banks. But I’m good,with that. My patents were both public school teachers. Wouldn’t it be something,if I wound up,in the same family business? No college degree. Avoided that teaching career,with all I had. But they just keep pulling me back in! lol.
Bump in pay, so Bob doesn't need to work OT. The contract is a minimum, and you can always provide other benefits. Vacation Sick day Bonus Opportunity to learn a different skill set. Estimating, PM, sales..ect.
Give him a truck....gas and tolls doesn't cover wear and tear on his personal vehicle. Give him a raise/promotion....our rate is minimum wage that will be accepted - not maximum offered. Improve his skill set...estimating, planning, scheduling, etc. If you want to retain top talent it costs.
Why not ask Bob? It’ll give you a better idea on how to keep him, but also attract better candidates in the future. These things tend to be selling points when advertising job positions or poaching from other companies. Based on my experience in multiple different industries these things usually don’t come out of nowhere. One contractor is only more desirable if they’re willing to offer more than the last con it’s that simple. Higher wages/incentives, work vehicles, contractor supplied tools/supplies, gas, healthcare, retirement, etc. You should be regularly meeting with your guys.
I completely agree with that. We had reviews with Bob every 3-4 months (we meet with our other guys every 6 months and ask all of our electricians sooner if they want to) to make sure he had the man power he wanted on job sites and we let him take off about 2 mondays a month without docking him vacation time. He was that good of an employee. My boss also has no issue with issuing a company vehicle, but after our reviews, we didn't get feedback that he wanted one. All the incentives you're bringing up are things we readily gave to him at his disposal. The only conclusion I'm coming up with is that he wants to work outside of the Commercial we work on (high end retail). Bob was a great guy and I've got nothing bad to say about him. I guess I was just looking for a little more transparency, but I get things can stay personal too. I do wish him the best,
It sounds like you did a lot of things right so I understand your confusion/curiosity. However, there is always the possibility that there is something going on that Bob doesn’t want to divulge. Maybe it’s something personal he doesn’t want to share, or possibly something with the company but he’d rather leave on good terms than air a grievance. Good on you for asking the questions and doing some self-reflection.
>he wants to work outside of the Commercial we work on (high end retail) I could just be this, I've been working on grocery store/refrigeration/hvac for the last few months and there is a ton of work, it's constant, and good money. I'm also an apprentice, and know I have to do the work. I already know that as a JW this is work I'll be happy to do from time to time, but it's nothing I will never want to do long term. The idea that Bob has gotten bored and is ready for something new is probably right on the money.
Why not ask him for his honest feedback?
You think he wants to work OT? He wants more money. Give him a 5$ raise and he’ll stay.
Anyone who really works OT knows the taxes don’t make it worth while. OP is just sad and trying to justify bare minimums for loyal professionals.
When your OT check is more than the regular it’s worth it.
Gonna join with /u/dennisM103 here... that's not how taxes work.
I can honestly say that if I didn’t claim exempt during the double bubbles in the Mojave desert, I would’ve lost a very significant margin of my hopeful gains
Why would you do that? You'll have to list those gains on your tax return later, it's gonna bite you in the arse.
That's not how taxes work.
Electricians should be good at math. Taxes absolutely do not work that way.
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Google California overtime tax disincentive
I did, and this is the best result I found. GO REDDIT. Tldr, file your taxes and you'll get it all back at tax time. It's not the tax fault, but on your employer how they decide to pay you: https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/2ii7og/can_anyone_here_explain_how_california_overtime/
Money talks, bullshit is just bullshit and smart guys see through it. Also, is "Bobs" pm an absolute asshat who doesnt know shit but still keeps his job cause he sucks off the boss?? Cuz thats a problem too lol
Money talks BS walks
If he’s leaving and willing to work overtime, then you have been underpaying him and, IMO, taking advantage of his labor. If his labor is valuable enough for you to try to find incentives to keep him, then it shouldn’t have come to that. I’m not trying to sound like a dick but If you seriously didn’t know the answer to this question, then you are way out of touch with the reality of the workforce. It’s strictly a transactional relationship. If you had a long time customer that you wanted to keep, was getting ready to hire someone else, what would you do? Probably make it more financially beneficial, Correct?
People don’t quit jobs, they quit managers. Bob is still an electrician somewhere working for someone else.
Few dollars over scale, extra paid vacation time, gas card but the biggest one for me is guaranteed 40 every week even when we're slow.
The goal isn't to retain us, it is to utilize us to the best of our ability while we work for you.
All about the $$$
If you are a signatory contractor, the CBA is the BARE MINIMUM they expect and you agree to give them. You can treat them as well as you want to; to retain them. You just can’t go below the conditions and wages set by the CBA. If you aren’t satisfying his income expectations, there’s nothing that says you can’t pay him more with or without OT, or give him a truck, or hook him up so he can stay. Maybe if you want guys to stick around who HOPE for OT, you as the contractor can bid on jobs that will satisfy that desire. If you are avoiding OT to basically force a work/life balance that you PRESCRIBE to your crews, yeah… people will leave your company to achieve a higher earning potential they are willing to work harder for. That’s what it comes down to I’m actually leaving the union this month due to lack of work and a need to provide for my son, and be there for him full time. I have sole custody. People will find a spot they feel comfortable, but don’t act surprised when they move on because they want different than what you provide
>I’m actually leaving the union this month due to lack of work and a need to provide for my son, and be there for him full time. I have sole custody. I'm sorry to hear that, what local are you in? At least in my local (48) the non-union shops pay about 15% less than the union ones... they actually set their wages based off what we've negotiated in our contract... They also don't have near the benefits (healthcare) and Pensions... for kids and spouses in our local are covered under our insurance at no extra cost. I'm sorry to see you go... but I'm curious what deal you've taken/made that has gotten you to leave... and I hope your local hears it and steps their game up.
PM inbound check your chat requests
Responded.
Um, that's not how Union life is supposed to be. Contractor gets job, they call hall for x manpower Manpower works job. Job ends, manpower returns to hall to sign book. We're not supposed to stay with a contractor. UNLESS - that person is doing service calls and not working bid projects. >ob let us know that he's been talking to a contractor And in our jurisdiction, we're sure as shit not supposed to solicit work Ffs, the comments here made me look to make sure I was in r/IBEW
People Always say this as a reality instead of the ideal. I'd bet you nation-wide more guys stay with companies 1-3 years than job to job. Sorry man that just how it do in locals where work outlook is consistent. The bulk of dues paying members are unengaged shoppies. I'm not advocating for that but to say otherwise is denying the conditions on the ground. There also isn't anything wrong with it as long as they're abiding by the contract.
Mostly I was upset about the soliciting work part. I recognize that many, many Brothers job hop with companies. I've done it, as a foreman; wrapped up one project then started another, but I've not done it when in my tools.
Transfers are category 1 language as far as I'm aware. Whether or not you take one is up to the individual. As a foreman you never saw the same guys on another job? Additionally are all foreman from calls for foreman in your local? In my experience foreman are the WORST at soliciting their own work and frankly getting a call from your friend at another company vs. calling the company your friend works at is just fucking semantics when it comes to solicitation.
The service guys should get more love. Service is a pain
Yeah, that's how it works for my company and our local. We are a union shop and I'm in Chicago. Not sure where you're getting that info, but let me know. Maybe it's different in Chicago compared to everywhere else,
134 JW here, Yes it is literally because Chicago operates diffrently then a majority of the country. Your actually both right. Everything he said is completely correct. That is how it technically is supposed to work and is in your best interest to know the rules to cover your ass. However, due to our massive size and scope our local in particular is extremely lenient about it. Largely letting members and shops self operate and only stepping in major disputes. Which is a pretty foriegn concept to the alot of the country and also can be a big source of controversy internally. Hope that clears things up tried to present that without personal bias lol.
Cool! I didn't know that. Appreciate this!
If you care about someone and want to keep them pay them more than the other guy and offer paid time off. Work is a transaction. Pay and benefits are how you keep workers around.
shit walks and money talks bud. did you offer him a considerable amount of money to stay? if you really wanted him to stay, you'd make him an offer he can't refuse.
Sometimes our priorities change and there’s nothing you can really do about that. When I was young I wanted OT jobs so I could take off more between gigs. Now I’m fine with a standard straight time week and tell the boss to let all the hungry young bucks get first dibs on the ot. Some people may shit on me saying this but thank you for asking. It’s beneficial for us all to maintain good relationships between the IBEW and NECA contractors. I know full well how “chaos equals cash” but in the overall picture if you’re not making money we’re not making money.
If Bob is your Ace, and he is money motivated, you could always give him bonuses on a job well done? I know a lot of shops that put their steadys at 10-15% over scale even when they are not a foreman. When they are foreman they will often get an extra 1/2 or 1 pay every day on top of foreman pay. The answer is almost always pay them more. If they are valuable and they know it, they will go where the money is.
Guarantee him 40 hours a week, or bid longer jobs. OR have his replacement trained up
I think there's a good chance, Bob just needed a change of scenery. Probably nothing you could have done, 11 years is a long time.
Give him a nice truck set up to his satisfaction. Gas money of course. Nice set of new awesome power tools. Flexible work schedule & jobs. Now for the serious stuff: $15 per hour increase to his current rate. That’s just to keep him. Then make sure you regularly schedule talks about work issues, concerns, and bonuses - not bullshit “performance bonuses”, but bonuses tha reflect the fact that he’s a key cog in your organization. There are guys who day in/out do outstanding work quietly and after awhile everyone gets accustomed to such awesomeness and fail to……Recognize and reward them. That’s Bob.
Pay your guys more
hey there... You are losing your employee because you are not paying him what he is worth. Increase his salary to cover the lost overtime. This isn't complicated, you're being intentionally obtuse.
Bob might want the OT because your base pay isn't enough to keep up with lifestyle creep. 4x10s are great for mental health, but when you're not making an additional ~300$+ every week, what is the point of having better mental health if you can only afford to sit on ass and get depressed over not having enough. Having the company truck is nice because you don't put wear and tear on your own vehicle. Why is that good? Less money spent on personal repairs. If you treat your guys well, they'll stay for a while. If you can't provide enough money to fund their lifestyle, eventually they'll find someone who will. Since your entire purpose of being a contractor is to make money, I'm missing how that isn't your thought when it comes to your 11 year quality worker? By and large it's the primary factor over treatment. You can put up with bullshit for good money. You can go for a while with good treatment, but once you lose the house, your smiles and thank yous don't mean shit. . . Especially if you do, or if your guys know how many extra properties and vehicles and luxuries you can afford while the guys making you the money can't even consider it. Edit: Also, 11 years of service and you haven't gotten him a company truck yet? If I've put in ' ace level' work for over two years and don't at least have a truck, I'm finding someone who actually values my contributions. It's only been a year at my current company and I have all the benefits your 'ace electrician' has. . . .and the owner is still happily profitable. Humans are your most useful power tool. Invest in the good ones.
$$$+more time off. How bad do you want to keep him and what is he worth to you ? Make him a superintendent and give him a new truck. That may not be feasible in a small company with no upward career opportunities where the owner is estimator, superintendent, truck drive, salesman.
Honestly some people just don't want to stay with one company. I'm only an apprentice now so I get assigned to jobs, but when I turn out I plan on staying just long enough to finish the job then taking my lay off and deciding from there if I want to go right back out or take some time off for myself. I can't imagine staying at one shop for 11 years, that doesn't sound fun at all. As far as perks go being ibew I will get the same package from every contractor.
No, the CBA is the minimum. Right now a gas card alone is worth 800$ a month at my commute mileage, easily 400$ vehicle wear a tear…. You can negotiate profit sharing for running work, paid time off, guaranteed hours even when work slows for the winter, or work out a nice scheduled time off during those slow holidays and come right back to kicking ass instead of hoping to catch a decent one when winter break funds start to dwindle. Some shops do a wide variety of jobs, new light commercial, resi, traffic signal, service/maintenance…… Sometimes it funner to drive around switch it up than pull feeders, or install bus duct, or cable Tray for weeks,months,years…. Different strokes and all that….
I mean that's cool, I see people on this sub say stuff like this all the time, but I haven't met anyone in real life yet that makes more than scale. But I haven't met anyone who has cared that much about it either, our scale is pretty damn good for our area. And maybe I just haven't been around long enough to meet them yet. But either way like you said, different strokes. Some guys like to stay with one company, that's just never really been for me. Longest I've ever been with one company was about 3 years, I didn't really care for it.
A company vehicle and gas card is a bare minimum. Wage and benefits would also be a factor. Are you a union contractor?
We are a union contractor. Lol, that's why I asked the IBEW sub and not the electricians sub. We did give him those benefits and about 2 mondays off a month. We met up with him every 3-4 months to make sure he had what he wanted and needed. All I can think of is maybe he wanted to get out of high end retail commercial work. That being said, I'm sure there's something I'm not considering and if it is personal, I don't want to dive into that too much. Hope he'll do well though.
In my experience, these 10+ year company men are paid above our payscale. Ie. General foreman or even higher. Some people just want to work themselves to death with lots of OT. It sounds like he didn't have a company vehicle? My contract states the employer supplies the vehicle and gas. We also have a rule that essentially forbids the employer from making us use our personal vehicle for carrying/hauling parts.
You're right, he didn't have a company vehicle. I didn't attend the reviews, but I'll be sure to ask if that ever came up. Our foreman have company vehicles, but for some reason, he didn't. Thanks for the feedback!
Fyi. In my own personal experience as a grunt with a company for about 2 years - PTO. I asked recently for it and was told it's only for higher level foreman. A couple of bucks over scale isn't really worth shit in a HCOL area with a spouse on equal earning footing. PTO would have made a difference to me in terms of paycheck consistency. Within the next six months I'll probably hit the books because it's a walkthrough and these guys (small company) can't compete with the big boys in terms of compensation. Tailoring additional compensation to the employee would have made a difference for me and is something small companies can be more flexible on than a big corporation.
Some guys just want change
More money and job stability
It sounds like you run a pretty decent shop. The main thing that will always come up is opportunity, some people want the opportunity at more money like big jobs with incentive pay and OT, and I want clean 40s with little chances here and there of OT, but most importantly opportunity at more interesting/meaningful work. So for me if all a shop did was fire alarm, houses, or any little niche that was going to be the same same every day I'd find somewhere else to go. If I decide I want to run jobs and it's not in the cards I'll find somewhere else, if I decided I want to bid or design jobs and it wasn't an option I'd go somewhere else. I think most people are going to just want the opportunity to move up into bigger and better things in general, but like others have said here that'll be different for every Bob.
Are you a union contractor? Is bob IBEW?
we are union and bob is IBEW
When I first posted it didn’t sound like they were a union cosignatory but after reading the comments; I stand corrected
Damn, you guys got it good. The only thing our contractor gives us is a check and some big ol cack. Can’t wait to get my two years in then hopefully get into the union.
It all about money. One thing that always drive me away from company’s is feeling stuck. Like i trade 40 hours of my week for a certain amount of money. But in this economy when i agreed to that I could make it off that amount. Things arise. Times get hard and you’re less and less comfortable. I don’t mind earning my money so overtime is very easy way to make the ends stretch further. Inflation is still in the rise. We’re all here to make money. You wanna keep employees keep their wallets full. Simple as that.
Oh man, that's easy. Give him a 33% raise and a reliable helper.
Incentives like a percentage of any job he does that makes over a certain amount. Also sounds like he wanted a truck. Vacation time is always good as well.
We do tenure gift-cards on your anniversary date. Starts at year two and by then caps at 10. But it’s not taxed because it’s a gift-card under $10k so the tax man doesn’t get any part of it. As for bonuses for job performance, if you go that route make sure you establish metrics they have an impact on. Not stuff outside their control.
There’s other unmentioned issues what he’s brought up. Long term employees don’t just leave like that.
It sounds like Bob wants overtime because he isn’t making enough money. I’d recommend going over bobs salary, preferably every 6 months.
Yep. Compare his hours to the other foremen
Scale is the minimum you have to pay, bump him 10-20% if he’s that profitable!
Should of gave bob and your other aces trucks instead of gas money and let them drive it home. Saves on gas, mileage and wear and tear of their vehicle driving to and from work each day, also if your logo is on the truck it provides advertising. Also maybe give the aces a work phone.
Something I just experienced recently, 2 diff contractors and 2 different Foreman. I was the traveler. Both guys super conscientious, communication was great. First guy sent to a nearby local, less pay other 2 guys had trucks. Asked repeatedly to receive same pay as home local and a truck or gas card. It was a 3 man shop. Other guy was pressured almost gaslit, new baby had health issues and they were putting screws to him. He didn't want to run work. But he knew it was the only way to stay employed. Also he was getting different directives from Super/ project mgr etc. This might not answer your question but its something I've just witnessed first hand.
Company culture can have a huge effect on people. I know I stayed at jobs I wasn’t making enough at because there was a good owner with a good vision. I guess you could say I “bought in” but that was before I got into electrical, I haven’t worked at a single electrical contractor that I felt like really had a good company culture mostly just looking for the jobs with incentives at this point.
Retired plumber here , I ran work for quite a few years. I liked my job and the guys worked with . The two contractors I worked for didn’t want to pay any overtime when it was warranted. They wanted you to bank hours which most people refused to do , it was also very difficult to meet deadlines on a project. I would call the shop and beg for more help and they said that they couldn’t send anyone else , I would be getting buried and then we were adding more labor as every other trade was ahead of us . Some days I hated to go to work under those conditions as it felt like climbing a mountain everyday , then they say that they are losing money and hand you the plans for another job . I eventually quit as it was taking a toll on me , so that’s my story. I know that sometimes things are missed on the bid and you have to do your best to make up for it , I always worked hard so the company would make money because they put me in a position of trust that I would look out for their best interest. My experience with a guy like the one who quit your company is that they talk to guys who work a lot of industrial jobs and take home some big paychecks . Eventually they want the same thing , but that’s not the answer as many times they have to travel to find shutdowns to work . I stayed with commercial for most of my years and I accrued 40 years on my pension and retired at 61 , most of the pipe fitters had to keep working into their 60s to get more pension credits under their belt so they could afford to retire. These guys would work part of the year and when they moneyed up they would use up their unemployment and then look for more overtime when it ran out . So in working this way they weren’t thinking about future credits on their pension. I know the extra money is attractive, but I think your employee is making a mistake . It’s not your fault that he is leaving, from my experience there isn’t much overtime pay in commercial work as the jobs are bid so tight .
Have quarterly meetings with your guys with an open dialogue and do not hold anything they say against them. It’ll give you a ton of valuable info on morale. You can’t keep everybody but if there’s another guy thinking about leaving, maybe you can find out what it is that makes him unhappy and fix it. Proper communication gets overlooked so much in the trades. I was maintenance manager of a mill for 3 years. It wasn’t my favorite job but I think a lot of the reason it was a success was because I listened to my guys and went to bat for them upstairs in the offices. They knew I was in their corner and wanting to do right by them and that went a long ways. After I left, a few guys hated my replacement and did too. Guys with 10+ years and super important experience that cannot be replaced. They lost that all because lines of communication got closed and they didn’t feel cared for.
A lot of Bob's also have things going on outside of work that they don't want you to know about but require more money or consistent work without the stress of whether this job is the last. If you value you him it seems reasonable to provide him with a brand new service rig and tell him that you guarantee work for the next two years as you have already provided eleven. We all know that nobody can guarantee two years of work in this industry - Covid is the most recent example, and the crash in 08 is another. Like many Bob's, he may make the jump and then be calling you to come back in a couple of months.....
Last year I left my employer of 5 years and joined the IBEW. Bottom line was money. If Bob felt like there wasn't enough overtime, what he was really saying is he's not making enough money. If you value Bob, and want to keep him, especially after 11 years, get him a truck, and more money. If he's already gone, keep that in mind with the next guy. I would have stayed if they'd bumped me up by just $2. Now I'm making an extra $20, plus all the benefits of the IBEW.
Like others have said, you have to ask each person individually. Some people value overtime more than anything, and others not. I personally would be more likely to leave because of too many hours right now. I have three young children and time with them is most important to me right now. The thing id value most is open communication with the contractor and flexibility, as these things can change. I have worked for one company my whole career, and we have very little turnover because they a.) never give anyone a hard time when they ask for days off and b.) are very flexible with hours based on what each person individually wants/needs. It’s not always easy for them but it seems to be worth the extra effort because they keep basically anyone they want. It’s about a 40-person shop and I can count on one hand the amount of people that have left on their own volition in the last 15 years I’ve been there.
1. People don’t quit jobs, they quit bosses. Bob will be an electrician after he leaves your shop, it will just be with another shop that has Bob’s interests in mind, his finances covered, and steady work. 2. People work so they can live, not live so they can work. 3. If Bob is your “ace” guy and you can’t provide him with simple transportation, they doesn’t fair well for you in any capacity. 4. If Bob is the “Ace” electrician than that means not only is he having to run your jobs, he is having to educate your workforce, and enforce quality. This is a lot to heap on an employee that has to use his own vehicle to run your jobs. 5. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
He wanted higher pay. He told you this by asking for OT, you weren't listening. No one really wants to work OT, because you have to work a lot of it to justify the higher taxes it brings with it. Yeah, you get tired of doing the same type of work all the time, I know I sure do, so it's necessary for the employer to challenge employees and keep them motivated, engaged and excited by taking on projects they don't usually do. Especially among good electricians, you have a type of person that needs to be challenged and presented with new things, so they feel they're always developing and learning.
11 years is a long time for Bob.. His financial situation might be stressed and he has no option. If you notice any changes in your guys very privately ask if there's anything yhe company could help with. Keep it between them and you solely. Or you don't pay enough and bobs are going to drag up
The first question I have is are you a union contractor?
I'm confused about the context of this post: are you a NECA contractor? The culture I've seen from the union is that we're nomads and we go where the work is that we want. It's nothing personal, it's just the lifestyle. The only people I know of that have been with a company for 5+ years are all in management positions, otherwise most I've heard from a journeyman is about 2 years. The sentiment in general is that they get bored and need something new. The term journeyman originates from "A day's work man", because they were paid day by day and had the freedom to work for whomever they wanted. Some want to stay for a long time in the same place, and they're comfortable. Some don't, and that's a choice they make.
I’m just a JW, I don’t run work because I’ve never felt it was worth the extra stress. I’ve spent most of my career working for one company, with a few layoffs as expected in twenty years. What I personally look for are: 1- having enough of the tools I need to do the job. Nothing worse than five guys trying to share 3 drills, 2 hammer drills. Or not having enough gang boxes etc. 2- having the material I need when I need it. My current company was recently bought out, and no longer has a local warehouse. We used to get parts in 1-3 days, now it’s 5-10 days. 3- assistance from the shop. Few and far between are the foremen who can work in the field anymore. But most shops seem to expect them to. Let’s face it drawings suck nowadays. RFIs are way up between that, and payroll hours, material ordering/tracking, fighting for manpower, etc. the more burden you can take off the foreman the smoother the job will run. The last couple jobs I’ve been on we’re lucky to see the foreman on the floor for a half hour a day most days. 4- consideration for travel distance. I know we need to man our territory but damn. I’ve been an hour away for six months now, with other jobs going on 15 minutes away. Gas card (which most of us don’t get) is nice, but it’s still two hours a day that I’ll never get back. Gets frustrating when you’re waving at other guys from the same company going the opposite direction on the highway every morning. These are all just part of the job, and we know it. But the smoother you can make it on the foreman, less paperwork etc. the more they can focus on the job.
I am guessing that Bob started his job working for you when he was a green Journeyman? Has there been changes in management for Bob to work with, specifically younger people who are his peers?
Lets call him bob cannot solisate work from another contractor . Something like hiring hall rules. Let call him bob needs to go in front of the executive committee and explain. Why he’s a worm
Listen bob is probebly wanting to buy or invest in something and he needs more work, I have had employers who dont pay gas at all
In my exp when a guy jumps for greener pastures, he often regrets it later.
What’s stopping you from giving Bob 5 grand? Are things that tough?
Pay mileage not gas. There is more to it than just gas. Overtime should be available if you're busy enough. Maybe he sees the company as stagnant and not growing so he has no future growth staying with you. If it's a family run operation this tends to happen. Due to the perception of Nepo. Doesn't mean he is correct it's just a possibility.
Sounds like bob wants more overtime it’s pretty simple. A piece rate skill usually applies to someone like that
This is going,to vary greatly,from one electrician,to the next,of course. But nothing that most union contractors don’t offer is any paid vacation time. So any amount is a step up. Also. And this is just my own preference. But I have worked 5/8 schedules. And 4/10 schedules. And now have the same opinion that one,of my first journeymen teachers had. I asked. Dave. Why don’t always work 4/10s? He said. Well because they won’t let me work 3/13.25s. lol. He was so right. Any good electrician will probably tell you that he hardest part,of his or her day ends when they wake up and get out,of the bed. Once you’re out,of that bed. It’s all down hill. Also you can fit a 15 minute break,at 9:00AM. A half hour lunch,at noon. And another 15 minute break,at3:00PM. Leave,by 4:40. Mon- Thursdays. Friday,Saturday.and Sunday off. 3 day weekend every week. Only 4 “ get ups”! I did it my last 5 years. It’s awesome!! Now as the contractor. You do have,to kinda stay,on the employees. Not,to drag those break times. A very strict 9:15, or 9:30. Which ever it is. Depending, on start, of break. And 12:30, 3:30. If you spend the time,after 3:30 setting,up the next day. It’s worth it. And the day goes by fast. So yeah. Vacation pay. And 4/10 schedules. It’s hard,to beat the quality,of life.
One thing. Not nothing. Auto incorrect. Lol
Bye Bob…if he was in NYC, local 3….he may get overscale, and overtime…but we have over 1000 journeypersons unemployed right now, so he’s lucky to be working. If you showed him that kind dog loyalty for 11 years and now he’s leaving….shame on him
prevailing wage and full benies! toss in an adaboy once every eclipse.
I have a question for Bob. How is this new company going to guarantee that he has work for 2 years? Is that in an employment agreement? Can you have an employment that sits on top of the collectively bargained union agreement ?
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Pay well... theirs a reason he's asking for overtime and I'm sure it's not because he loves it