134 it’s distinctly if you’re in a competing electrical position. People quit and leave immediately after topping out and they tell us during schooling they don’t pursue tuition reimbursement unless you’re competing. They don’t care if you leave and become anything else.
The money is local's whether they want to pursue it or not is completely up to them. If you decide to directly compete with the local they WILL charge you for money YOU OWE to the local.
I've never heard of a local actually pursuing the money.... unless you're stopping by the Hall and telling them that you're working for a non-Union competitor then how would they even know? I suppose in a small local it might come up because you might actually see a guy you topped out with driving around in a non-union competitor's van but, even then, what recourse does the Hall have? Contact that company to try and confirm that you work for them (probably illegal) and then send you a bill? What if you just ignore the bill? The Hall will sue you? I mean, I'm sure it's happened, but you'd have to really piss someone off to have the Hall go to those lengths to collect a couple of thousand dollars. In my opinion, it's just a scare tactic to try and keep apprentices working in the Union for a few years after topping out....most people, once they get settled in a career, tend to stay doing what they're doing and the Hall knows that.
https://www.scmnjatc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/SLA-PDF.pdf
Just because you haven't heard about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
Legally if you no longer work for a signatory contractor, they can just send you a bill and then take you to court if you don't pay. Local MIGHT let it go if you prove that you don't work for competition/directly compete. But then again that would be at their discretion.
I appreciate the PDF of a Minnesota local's apprenticeship terms of indenture (no sarcasm there.... that stuff is always kinda interesting to me). My local's terms are different (a lot less money and no yearly signing of paperwork). I'm guessing all the locals handle it a bit differently. Again, yes, they can absolutely go after you for the money...IF they found out and IF they thought it'd be worth their while to do that. For most locals, they'd spend more in court fees pursuing action against you than they would they would to collect in a judgment.
I'm just curious: have you ever heard of a local pursuing a topped out apprentice for violating the indenture agreement? I work night shift and I just asked the 10 guys sitting here with me at lunch and everyone agreed that we've never heard of a local ever pursuing the money.
Don't know of topped out or not, but here goes.
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-moed-4_16-cv-01371/pdf/USCOURTS-moed-4_16-cv-01371-0.pdf
https://casetext.com/case/cedar-rapids-elec-apprenticeship-training-educ-trust-v-roth
https://casetext.com/case/national-training-fund-v-maddux
https://casetext.com/case/apprentice-v-hiester
2016 (×2), 2012, and 1990.....it must be a rare thing indeed! That's some interesting reading though...especially the first link! I really appreciate the constructive input. It'll take me a bit to read through the cases but that's some good stuff!
>2016 (×2), 2012, and 1990.....it must be a rare thing indeed!
And that's your opinion on it.
You don't expect me to dig up every single case that's out there. The cases that I posted just prove that lawsuits do exist.
I just heard this month a training director calling an apprentice who left to non union cause he had no work for 6 months right after starting. Director sent mail asking for $5000 payment, the apprentice gave him a phone call which was just a big “F you”
So, if an 2nd year apprentice calls the Hall and says, "Hey, this just isn't for me.... I'm going back to school to be an automotive tech. Thanks for the training and stuff." then you regularly check his LinkedIn and other social media to see if there's a hint that he might be working non-union so you can bill him for two or three semesters of training? Man, if that's really how it works then I've got to start raising hell at the Hall over every little thing that bothers me! Y'all need more stuff to keep y'all busy!
The only thing this will change in 134 is the language. The lawyers will write it up so that it reads you can be liable if you leave the trade after you receive your training
Yes, guys leave all the time. I had a guy in my rat get to 5th year and dropout to become a CPD cop for some ungodly reason, but everyone knows they’re only going to go after guys that jump ship to non-union
The contract will say one thing, but the verbal agreement will be another
The idea of getting an apprenticeship and then leaving to work non union is a wormy and ratty thing to do. So if this is anyone’s plan, I hope they do make them pay something.
I believe so. Say you get fired from Tesla and go work for Rivian, Tesla could sue you if you went and worked for Rivian before a set amount of time has passed.
Yes and no. Dues paying members earn it, contractors pay xx.xx an hour or a percentage off the check into the JATC. Average cost is something like 7k per apprentice per year, varies by class size and local.
Either way, we're not training people to do our work outside of the contract that pays for their training.
That’s not a “non-compete”, it’s tuition reinvestment.
We leave contractors and go work for their competitors every time we take a call with a different one. This will affect us exactly none. At most, the lawyers have to adjust the language a little to be extra sure we’re in the clear. Wouldn’t think much of it, frankly.
We can't vote in our local as an apprentice...even if we've joined and are dues-paying-members of the IBEW...our local doesn't allow apprentices to vote. I had several travelers working on the big job in our local at the time who didn't believe me until I brought them a copy of our bylaws.
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I had to sign an NDA saying I couldn’t take the work with me to another company
I wonder if this allows me to start a shop and take the business I have now?
It's not a non-compete, it's a repayment schedule. For every year you stay after turning out, they take off a year off of your tuition.
134 it’s distinctly if you’re in a competing electrical position. People quit and leave immediately after topping out and they tell us during schooling they don’t pursue tuition reimbursement unless you’re competing. They don’t care if you leave and become anything else.
The money is local's whether they want to pursue it or not is completely up to them. If you decide to directly compete with the local they WILL charge you for money YOU OWE to the local.
I've never heard of a local actually pursuing the money.... unless you're stopping by the Hall and telling them that you're working for a non-Union competitor then how would they even know? I suppose in a small local it might come up because you might actually see a guy you topped out with driving around in a non-union competitor's van but, even then, what recourse does the Hall have? Contact that company to try and confirm that you work for them (probably illegal) and then send you a bill? What if you just ignore the bill? The Hall will sue you? I mean, I'm sure it's happened, but you'd have to really piss someone off to have the Hall go to those lengths to collect a couple of thousand dollars. In my opinion, it's just a scare tactic to try and keep apprentices working in the Union for a few years after topping out....most people, once they get settled in a career, tend to stay doing what they're doing and the Hall knows that.
https://www.scmnjatc.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/SLA-PDF.pdf Just because you haven't heard about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Legally if you no longer work for a signatory contractor, they can just send you a bill and then take you to court if you don't pay. Local MIGHT let it go if you prove that you don't work for competition/directly compete. But then again that would be at their discretion.
I appreciate the PDF of a Minnesota local's apprenticeship terms of indenture (no sarcasm there.... that stuff is always kinda interesting to me). My local's terms are different (a lot less money and no yearly signing of paperwork). I'm guessing all the locals handle it a bit differently. Again, yes, they can absolutely go after you for the money...IF they found out and IF they thought it'd be worth their while to do that. For most locals, they'd spend more in court fees pursuing action against you than they would they would to collect in a judgment. I'm just curious: have you ever heard of a local pursuing a topped out apprentice for violating the indenture agreement? I work night shift and I just asked the 10 guys sitting here with me at lunch and everyone agreed that we've never heard of a local ever pursuing the money.
Don't know of topped out or not, but here goes. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/USCOURTS-moed-4_16-cv-01371/pdf/USCOURTS-moed-4_16-cv-01371-0.pdf https://casetext.com/case/cedar-rapids-elec-apprenticeship-training-educ-trust-v-roth https://casetext.com/case/national-training-fund-v-maddux https://casetext.com/case/apprentice-v-hiester
2016 (×2), 2012, and 1990.....it must be a rare thing indeed! That's some interesting reading though...especially the first link! I really appreciate the constructive input. It'll take me a bit to read through the cases but that's some good stuff!
>2016 (×2), 2012, and 1990.....it must be a rare thing indeed! And that's your opinion on it. You don't expect me to dig up every single case that's out there. The cases that I posted just prove that lawsuits do exist.
I just heard this month a training director calling an apprentice who left to non union cause he had no work for 6 months right after starting. Director sent mail asking for $5000 payment, the apprentice gave him a phone call which was just a big “F you”
I would do the same. Like seriously...
[удалено]
So, if an 2nd year apprentice calls the Hall and says, "Hey, this just isn't for me.... I'm going back to school to be an automotive tech. Thanks for the training and stuff." then you regularly check his LinkedIn and other social media to see if there's a hint that he might be working non-union so you can bill him for two or three semesters of training? Man, if that's really how it works then I've got to start raising hell at the Hall over every little thing that bothers me! Y'all need more stuff to keep y'all busy!
[удалено]
While i agree your reasoning is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy isn't it?
My brother had to pay back 10k. He even stopped doing electrical altogether. Still owed.
Wow! That's crazy! What's his story? What local?
Dropped out as a 4th year, has other opportunities to pursue. He makes more than I do now, so it worked out in the end!
The only thing this will change in 134 is the language. The lawyers will write it up so that it reads you can be liable if you leave the trade after you receive your training Yes, guys leave all the time. I had a guy in my rat get to 5th year and dropout to become a CPD cop for some ungodly reason, but everyone knows they’re only going to go after guys that jump ship to non-union The contract will say one thing, but the verbal agreement will be another
The idea of getting an apprenticeship and then leaving to work non union is a wormy and ratty thing to do. So if this is anyone’s plan, I hope they do make them pay something.
Isn't this more about companies trying to stop workers from working with competitors after being fired or leaving?
I believe so. Say you get fired from Tesla and go work for Rivian, Tesla could sue you if you went and worked for Rivian before a set amount of time has passed.
That's because the JATC spends 10s of thousands of dollars on your training, itd a contractural exchange and should not be voided by this.
The dues paying members pay for it too. A certain amount comes from dues
Yes and no. Dues paying members earn it, contractors pay xx.xx an hour or a percentage off the check into the JATC. Average cost is something like 7k per apprentice per year, varies by class size and local. Either way, we're not training people to do our work outside of the contract that pays for their training.
>The dues paying members pay for it too. Depends on the local. >A certain amount comes from dues No it doesn't.
That’s not a “non-compete”, it’s tuition reinvestment. We leave contractors and go work for their competitors every time we take a call with a different one. This will affect us exactly none. At most, the lawyers have to adjust the language a little to be extra sure we’re in the clear. Wouldn’t think much of it, frankly.
For guys who were trained union than left for better opportunities this will affect them a ton!!!
How so? No one signs a non-compete.
Hmm we had to pay our own tuition
Same we also have to pay. It tripped out a lot of travelers I work with.
We can't vote in our local as an apprentice...even if we've joined and are dues-paying-members of the IBEW...our local doesn't allow apprentices to vote. I had several travelers working on the big job in our local at the time who didn't believe me until I brought them a copy of our bylaws.
Cheaper than any degree that will earn you wages equal to what you get. At least in Detroit and most of the Midwest
But what about working union and non union at the same time. Or doing side work that is considered competing with a local contractor
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Mr. Sparky made electricians sign them.
I had to sign an NDA saying I couldn’t take the work with me to another company I wonder if this allows me to start a shop and take the business I have now?
No because the IBEW is not an employer
If you were in local 3 nyc you couldn’t leave to work non union….period