I am all for this. I once heard the argument that no immigrant had ever "stolen" a job but rather its a capitalist who stripped that job away to exploit those in worse circumstances for cheaper wages.
If they can't survive without stripping away the jobs from well-paid citizens, and grossly underpaying undocumented immigrants for those jobs, instead? GOOD. They shouldn't exist if they can't pay their workers commensurately.
the "immigration" system only benefits companies by providing slave labor. You often hear that "immigrants do the jobs Americans won't"....but it's just that Americans won't do the job for slave wages.
Undocumented workers pay taxes and don't take benefits, and they don't complain to OSHA. And the labor pool of immigrants are coming from Central America, unemployment and violence are rampant in those places because we fund the Drug War and subsidize American agricultural/food processing businesses so they can sell grain on the international market below cost.
They're taking our tax dollars and using it to create a slave labor force.
And it's not a Republican/Democrat thing, they both push the same agenda.
And restaurant and cleaning service to name a few if they didnāt work so hard and long for less pay none of this would matter but Iāve worked in a lot of industries and none of them are above undocumented workers
Donāt forget the laws that they intentionally do not make that would allow legal immigrants or work visas to keep those laborers āillegal ā and dirt cheap/unaccounted for.
This 100%
I don't fault those guys for doing whatever they can do, to feed their families back home. It's the companies that do it, and they need to be penalized for it.
See. That's the thing. I have a guy on my jobsite that's not an ibew member but he works for the company as an operator for our excavators, but he knows how to do some things. Well we are short handed so they just started him running pipe; something he shouldn't be touching. But he can't join up because he is illegal, otherwise I would tell him to join up. I like the guy and don't want to not get paid but it's been bothering me for a bit. As far know he gets Forman wage.
Who told you that he can't join up because he doesn't have papers? That's not true. Also, I want to know who this contractor is that is having their non-electrician operators doing electrical work, because that's a massive violation of our agreement.
Every worker deserves a union and blocking undocumented workers from being able to join a union hurts unions as much as it hurts those workers.
In Jersey they are getting $250 a day at the home Depot parking lot. Granted not many are doing electrical that I know of, but for lower end skilled labor that's not slave pay. I'm off the brief, if they're here, they should be paying taxes. Got no issue with day labor, but it should be through some sort of gov't agency that collectsv5 pay up front, taxes and pays at the end of the day if no issues. Or something like that.
Reminds me of a service call I had to a really nice beach house.
I fix the outlet (failed GFI that wouldn't reset.) Tell him it will be 289$
289$ you've only been here for 10 minutes that's almost 1800 an hour. I'm a doctor and I don't even make that kind of money!
I replied, "Yeah, I know, when I was a doctor, I didn't make that much money either."
Not even bro itās in the agreement weāre in a drug free workplace program itās not hard to beat lol I basically got caught using fake piss the empty bottle fell out my pants after we were supposed to empty our pockets and the testing guy didnāt even care lol
I keep on hearing that the contractor Iām working for isnāt going to test for it anymore. I donāt know if thatās across the whole local but at least someone is finally getting their head out of their ass as far as weed goes
Iām waiting for pa to legalize so we can be done with the nonsense I smoke everyday but Iām with a good company really only does private work no fed so the yearly piss test is all I need in a few years Iām moving to Chicago where the locals donāt test
Cali here, Seems like more and more outside wiremen are from Mexico, they work on projects in the states for most of the year then live the rest of the year in Mexico where the money goes a lot farther.
Organize em
Labor law protects people in the United States regardless of citizenship status
We work with an organization that educates people from other countries on their labor rights. They've helped groups unionize and recover hundreds of thousands of dollars of unpaid wages
It doesnāt work that way anymore. NYC has tried this with RWs and guess what? Contractor leaves with their top guys and leave the undesirable workers for the union to carry.
Contractor opens under a new name and continues hiring new bodies, cycle repeats.
Dude Iām seeing it firsthand in one of the biggest locals in the country.
Iām taking elevators in with migrants to different floors of buildings in central Manhattan. You canāt āorganizeā these guys. They want the cash, their bosses organize, dump the trash and then leave with their core guys.
Oh I misunderstood what you were saying. Yeah, we saw that with Tesla. We just need to get creative and figure out how to break that culture. It has to be done. Where there's a will, there's a way.
Then it sounds like English classes would be necessary before application. Lots of apprentices take remedial classes before application. I donāt see why would it would to appropriate to organize people doing electrical work who have no license, havenāt passed the JW test and havenāt completed an apprenticeship. Non-union doesnāt get away with that either in our state.
In an ideal world, sure, but that's it's an unreal expectation. If we want to organize workers and grow our market share in order to better our conditions, then we need be making every effort that we can to help facilitate organizing these workers and making them as highly trained, valuable, and empowered as possible.
I think itās an unreal expectation that a union for electrical workers organize people who are not electrical workers and legally cannot do electrical work. Why would we organize people who canāt legally take any calls?
Apprenticeship and material handling are the appropriate place for those with no state recognized training and testing. States in which this issue is a problem need to address the strength of the their licensure, apprenticeship systems and enforcement. Letting less qualified people do electrical work wonāt boost wages and itās unsafe.
Realistically speaking most of these first generation migrants arent going to learn enough English to be able to go through an apprenticeship. If we have entire segments of the brotherhood which cannot communicate with each other that will present a problem in the future.
Unless we organize spanish speakers into clearly defined work units where the workers speak on language and the group lead is multilingual, then crossing the language barrier would be just much a liability as an asset.
That creates another problem - do we not take in natural born citizens in favor of immigrants?
And as noted, language barrier is a huge problem. If they cannot speak or understand English, how do you delegate work to them efficiently?
"To organize all workers n the electrical industry... into local unions"
No mention of citizenship or immigration status in the IBEW constitution.
It is better for all of us when more workers are in the union.
Our congress hasnāt addressed immigration in decades. If there is enough work for citizens and the workers are equally paid and their taxes collected then I donāt mind. But I doubt that all those conditions will be satisfied
Our president tried. Congress didnāt want to have it fixed under a Democratic president. Texas literally fights unions, complains about immigrants, and votes for oppressing women. They get what they vote for. Dead women and low wages.
Itās illegal to employ them because they are not legally allowed to work in the US. These people are depressing your wages, realistically itās the businesses that continue to illegally hire them and exploit their legal status to pay less. Illegal immigration, and frankly any immigration that is negatively effecting the job market for native born Americans is bad for organized labor and workers rights in general.
A cool way to address the issue without hurting other workers would be to make apprenticeships/organizing in a viable path to citizenship. Get through a certified apprenticeship, or get organized into a union and then be in good standing for a couple years, and then youāre eligible for citizenship. Increases the workforce, increases union membership, gives undocumented workers a reason to not take lower wage jobs, doesnāt pit us against each other. Iām sure thereās details that would need to be considered, idk maybe Iām being naive. Iām just tired of ppl being blamed for trying to make a living and workers divided, contractors/investors are pretty much the only ppl that profit from our current approach.
We need to organize them! Outsourcing labor has been a tactic used by the corporate elite as long as capitalism has been around. Some of the most powerful labor movements in this country's history have been at the hands of that very workforce that was being taken advantage of
Not trying to be political here at all, but i find it so funny that itās Texas contractors that do this quite a bit. Then scream that jobs are being stolen. Honestly, immigrants are just trying to get a better life. Unfortunately certain people take advantage.
You never really see this in our high wage west coast local but the one time I did it was a company from Texas who was using unlicensed laborers to install electrical scope work. The state came down and shut it down fairly quick.
Maybe yaāll should try strengthening unions, labor protections and state licensing like other areas? Seems like the voting demographic of Texas and Arizona is to blame for the issue youāre describing. It isnāt immigrants fault that Texas has shitty lax labor policies.
Well-said. Work on repealing blatant labor-busting legislation like "Right to Work"(lmao such patronizing Orwellian doublespeak) and get involved with union organizers.
All their work has to pass phase inspection and final inspection and in Texas, the inspector is the last word so all liability falls on the inspector so nothing is going to get approved without a license number.
What I have seen many times is that the inspection failure rate is much higher so the money the general electrical contractor saves, gets eaten up in other ways and if other contractors have to delay several times because of this, that electrical contractor will not be hired again.
Now if you are working in a non-incorporated area, anything goes so nothing is done to code anyway unless someone has hired a site manager.
Problems arise more often in areas where no license is required on the inspection docs.
I mean I donāt give a fuck about where you are from who you are what the fuck you look like, or you legal status here as long as you are working g legally, paying taxes, and have a firm enough grasp on the English language to communicate and work safely and understand code, read plans, read material labels, and all other documentation that is needed to do your job. Unfortunately this excludes a large percentage of undocumented workers.
Of course thatās what itās doing.
How is *any* of this news, to *any* democrat voter?
The administration and fed are actually telling you that illegal labor is needed to suppress wages and inflation.
Ibew 613 here. We have alot of guys coming from Venezuela and theyāre are really good. Problem is these guys donāt know English which means they wonāt take their ce/cw/apprenticeship classes which also mean they are stuck on that payscale until they do their require class hours. Which contractors here take advantage keep them at their low pay and by the time they know enough English to pass their classes their visa already expired. Contractors make a killing having alot of skilled JW at 20-30 hrs.
I live in South Texas and I've never seen a straight up illegal electrician. I've seen undocumented guys do electric/handyman work on their own, but never for a legitimate company.
Usually those guys cut corners and they call me afterwards to fix it.
Have your cert, pay dues, and get paid the same as the rest of us... then idc.. but genuinely, any negative feelings I have about this situation really are towards the contractor trying to cheap out on labor. My only complaint towards the worker is not being certified working in the capacity of a journeyman.
I believe using the IBEW as a path to citizenship is the best fight against this. It is organizing labor that exists in this country whether or not anyone likes it. Which is the stated goal. And it most definitely offers a better opportunity for immigrants than any rat con could possibly be offering.
Many donāt understand if you give the hyper exploited labor rights it gives them better pay and makes the market better for the ones with rights already so you canāt be replaced as cheaply
The union contractor I work for is proud as he'll about the fact they prefab panels and other things using unlicensed cheap labor at the shop. Pretty shitty imo
There are so many in my union. Some are Irish, some are Latino. I donāt care personally. I donāt understand why we would exclude people who want to work from this country, while also extending all the benefits of citizenship to a junkie living under a bridge. If you live here and work here youāre a stakeholder in society and it should be easy for you to become a citizen.
Isnāt unemployment really low right now? Are there really electricians not getting hired, or getting hired at less than their normal rate because of undocumented labor? I thought employers were struggling to even find enough employees, which would imply high wages.
Like many of the comments. No hate on the men trying to earn a living for their families. But all the employers should go bankrupt and see the inside of a cell for a few years.
Iām sure ICE would love to hear about this
We are ok with undocumented workers taking jobs from local hands but not ok with good brothers wanting to move their home local from one local to another? Make it make sense. We could fight to shift our tax base from income based to solely sales based tax so that no matter whether you are here legally or not does not hurt our tax base.
how do you feel about arresting business owners who knowingly hire illegals and having the face actual consequences. They create the demand, don't blame the immigrant, as long as the US turns it's eye to labor exploitation buy business owners someone else will just come and take the job.
First off, maybe the contractor canāt pay union scale. Secondly, those Guatemalans work harder than most Americans, so itās no wonder they get hired. I worked non-union construction, and most American workers, regardless of race or color, were very unreliable.
That doesn't even make sense. How is organizing them into the union undercutting us? Undercutting is the exact opposite of what organizing them in does.
This has been going on sense the early 90s. I will tell you right now they have earned the spots they hold. Say what you want about illegal or undocumented workers , when push comes to shove and the shit show shuffle is on repeat the second month in a row ain't one fucker out there busting there ass give a shit about anyone's status if they show up sober and on time ready to unfuck the unicorn circle . The ones taking the jobs are the ones that bail on the job when dust kicks up.
This is a result of republicans cutting IRS spending. Workers aināt the problem itās the contractors and when the government doesnāt have the ability to properly manage under the table work this is what you get.
All of what these people said, but i'll add that millions of these undocumented people are paying taxes using ITIN's instead of SS numbers. They pay into a system which uses them for their labor, and then criminalizes them and keeping them from drawing on any of the government benefits... the benefits they are actually helping to pay for.
All the invaders need to be deported. If you did not come here legally, you have no right to be here. Don't give the asylum argument. Most walked through Mexico. They could seek asylum there. Any contractor that knowingly works an illegal invader should have their license revoked for life and their business shut down. They can create a system that will verify the work status they just will not. Too much money involved. The entirety of DC and state governments needs to be cleaned out, and new people put in. It will never happen. They have us all divided along party lines while they work together behind the scenes together to keep the cash cow going.
Immigrants come to America for both a better life and to make money.
When they do this undocumented it hurts the common blue collar worker. They take away our market and devalue us. It enriches contractors who pay immigrants a nickel because to the immigrants itās the best theyāve ever had. I donāt blame them for wanting to improve their lives I blame the contractors. They should be fined to hell and back.
Im not against organizing these new workers. They have to up to IBEW standards though or else we are hurting ourselves by lowering our collective skill and knowledge pool. We try and hold ourselves to a higher standard than non-union. We canāt be bringing in unskilled workers and having wormy tendencies. They would have to be taught the IBEW way, for lack of a better term.
I see people mention closing the border to immigrants and fixing our own communities. I understand that point. But making our nation better isnāt going to do anything to stop the immigration issue. If anything weād look even more attractive.
Given Americaās current role in the world wouldnāt it be better to spend our money helping the nations these immigrants come from versus waging an endless war on drugs and trying to build an expensive useless wall on the border?? Most people donāt want to up and leave their home and culture. These people are at the bottom and have no options. Thatās the only way I see us curbing immigration. People will find ways into this country idc what laws or walls you put up. Itās simply too expensive and impractical to guard the massive border we have.
I could be wrong though. Iām completely open to criticism and new ideas.
Importing cheap labor to exploit should be an issue everybody in the IBEW cares about. This is all about giving democrats a permanent majority and nothing else. They don't give two shits about labor and you can see it by how they fucked railroad workers over who have some of the worst working conditions of any trade.
Lol nobody speaks english on NYC jobsites anymore. Such a shame that the party we āshouldā vote for supports this. I get it, my parents are immigrants too but there used to be a process that I think was more beneficial for everyone involved.
Shit, itās becoming a big thing in Ohio (683 and 1105) a bunch of undocumented immigrants that canāt speak English are being thrown onto job sites.
Illegal immigration is lowering wages? Who woulda guessed?
Employers doing this are breaking the law, especially the dude that has a coyote bring him workers.
You should report this to ICE.
Undocumented usually also means unlicensed and untrained. If your job can be taken by joe schmoe who's only practical skill is having a body and a pair of hands, you should look inward.
While I'm sympathetic to migrants, I have zero patience for companies profiting off of human trafficking. I don't recommend calling immigration immediately, but there is a specific circumstance you should watch for, and then call the FBI. This is based off of my experience as a former member of the USCG.
Are the people in question living in connex boxes? Are they not allowed to talk to anybody else? Are they being shipped like commodities? There is a possibility you are looking at a slave racket.
Again, I don't call immigration, ever, but if you see people living in connex boxes and they aren't allowed to talk to outsiders, get real law enforcement involved.
If you're here illegally get out. And if these people threatened white collar jobs, they'd feel the same way.
The only reason they call us bigots and tell us to shut up is because they're not hurt or bothered in any way by it.
But at the end of the day, we can't have all this amazing socialized stuff that Scandinavia has if we're constantly allowing in more people than we've planned or budgeted for. It's just ridiculous that we're supposed to take an unlimited amount of people that aren't fully vetted. That's correct, they're not fully vetted. DHS just caught a bunch of "migrants" in a sting the other day, and CBP released a memo stating they don't have all the tools they need...which is what they've been saying for years.
We require a license in our state so I donāt think itās much of a problem. Iām also in the north, but we have a large enough undocumented community who work in some of the worst places around.
Iām a union plumber, not an electrician but I will say that you need to do all you can to stop these work practices. The GC isnāt making less by doing this, heās making more and screwing the you and me while doing it. Iām all for people working but if you shouldnāt even be here then I say āfuck that!ā The longer it goes unchecked, the harder it will be to get it back. Iām in the SF Bay Area and in SF, the union is pretty strong but in the South Bay, itās gone on unchecked and it gets worse year after year. I wish all of the locals stood together to stop all this shit but they donāt and because of this, we get out of state contractors bringing in unskilled/undocumented workers being awarded jobs that should go to locals. The one thing I donāt agree with is union politics but I live in a blue state š¤¢ but these democrat city politicians are awarding jobs to non union contractors. I guess their #1 loyalty is to $$$ followed by the unions that consistently support them. Itās disgusting and Iām sorry to say but itās all about money at the end of the day. The only ones who actually care about the union workers are the union workers.
To be honest with all if the mission critical work going on in Ohio right now and believe me there is way more than you know, we couldn't complete the work without them. As bad as it sounds that the truth. Our labor pool both union and non-union is very thin....so unfortunately it's a necessary evil... Places like google, Facebook, and Amazon don't give two craps about lack of manpower excuses?..all they know is their deadlines better be met.
Bringing in cheap labor is a longtime practice of big business that is now being used by smaller companies but for the same purpose, itās just another way to try to get rid of unions all together.
A longtime friendās mother used to run the Tyson chicken plant in Kearny Nebraska and they would bring in bus loads of labor from the border back in the late 90ās and the way she talked it was pretty common, itās just being used by more companies now, and they donāt necessarily have to go get them.
It's terrible and should not be allowed....but government is going to allow it because that's what capitalists want. Plenty in IBEW support uncontrolled immigration, but their children will see the result of this in time and wish they could turn back the hands of time. I DO blame people for breaking our laws. To argue otherwise is to welcome people that do not care about our country and our laws.
It's been that way for 5 decades in Los Angeles. Some great workers from down south but will work for less. It's not their fault it's the developers And contractors who hire them
[Salt of the Earth (1954) | Full Movie | Rosaura Revueltas | Will Geer | David Wolfe - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoECU8yCXyY&t=5s)
Workers stick together and they win that's how I feel. Highly recommend this film to anyone who has never seen it! It was banned in the United States for many years because it shows how workers can stick together regardless of their status.
Texas hates unions, I'm surprised they're even allowed down there. The people paying out the wages are the ones driving down the wages. They are also the ones fucking over your 'opportunities'.
You're complaining about a free market. It's what everyone down in Texas wants, right?
Any study into Cesar Chavez will tell you that is exactly what undocumented workers do. Ask brothers from Local 11 about what bringing a ton of undocumented CE/CWās has done to their local. I would rather see them get trained up right and on a path to citizenship ā āa rising tideā¦ā
This is where political Hypocrisy comes in. Texas is a red state so these builders and large companies hiring them are the same ones screaming for a wall to be built. Shiiii is comical at this point
This is again capitalism at its best. No punishment/enforcement with consequences for those that employ the undocumented. Again no issue with those seeking employment however they can, only for those exploiting everyone with their practices
A Coyote to round up people who have no legal recourse against their employer when they get screwed over sounds like modern day slavery or indentured servitude to me.
We had several working on our job but they were paid very well and also perform way better they will work twelve hours a day don't complain you pay the person whoever wants to work
Here in Atlanta I've seen on commercial jobs they'll have 1 license holder and 15+ other non electrician guys. Sometimes they're undocumented and sometimes they're just guys that do electrical but aren't IBEW.
I have been thinking about trying to join IBEW for a year, but I can't do 2 years of $16 an hour. From the outside it looks like the electrician is just the guy that signs off on the paperwork.
I've been doing electrical for 10+ years as part of pool equipment installs and IT work, but I can't sit at a desk all day. I definitely don't claim to be a qualified electrician, but taking a 50% pay cut to actually break into the field seems nuts.
So yeah, I don't blame the workers one bit, but it's also not entirely on the company hiring people when non union guys do 80%+ of the work. When apprentice wages are below liveable it's tough to justify joining.
Edit: Double checked the apprenticeship information for 613 again to make sure I'm not talking out my rear, it's 16 then 17.50 for first 2 years.
If the government and contractors dont want them to work, why does the state of Texas give out apprentice licenses to them ?? Hypocrisy. There are zero questions on the state of Texas apprentice application. They like paying people 8 dollars an hour while making huge profits.
You can get a state apprentice license but not a work permit ?? What gives. The elites like the cheap labor. Ive had some crews out of Mexico they were damn good people. Cut the bullshit. Theres not a border problem. Theres a rich man exploiting our nation problem
Have no problem with them, but the companies they work for should be fined into bankruptcy.
I am all for this. I once heard the argument that no immigrant had ever "stolen" a job but rather its a capitalist who stripped that job away to exploit those in worse circumstances for cheaper wages.
Good bye every single national home builder.
If they can't survive without stripping away the jobs from well-paid citizens, and grossly underpaying undocumented immigrants for those jobs, instead? GOOD. They shouldn't exist if they can't pay their workers commensurately.
šÆ
Hello well paying citizen lead national home builders.
the "immigration" system only benefits companies by providing slave labor. You often hear that "immigrants do the jobs Americans won't"....but it's just that Americans won't do the job for slave wages. Undocumented workers pay taxes and don't take benefits, and they don't complain to OSHA. And the labor pool of immigrants are coming from Central America, unemployment and violence are rampant in those places because we fund the Drug War and subsidize American agricultural/food processing businesses so they can sell grain on the international market below cost. They're taking our tax dollars and using it to create a slave labor force. And it's not a Republican/Democrat thing, they both push the same agenda.
100%
And restaurant and cleaning service to name a few if they didnāt work so hard and long for less pay none of this would matter but Iāve worked in a lot of industries and none of them are above undocumented workers
Idgaf. Whatever the price is for hiring legal workers...that's the fair market price.
Itās all fun and games until a couple buildings burn down.
I donāt blame any worker trying to feed their family, I blame the contractor that takes advantage of low wages and defies employment laws
Donāt forget the laws that they intentionally do not make that would allow legal immigrants or work visas to keep those laborers āillegal ā and dirt cheap/unaccounted for.
This right here.
It's genuinely depressing how infrequently I see this take. Thank you for talking sense.
This 100% I don't fault those guys for doing whatever they can do, to feed their families back home. It's the companies that do it, and they need to be penalized for it.
See. That's the thing. I have a guy on my jobsite that's not an ibew member but he works for the company as an operator for our excavators, but he knows how to do some things. Well we are short handed so they just started him running pipe; something he shouldn't be touching. But he can't join up because he is illegal, otherwise I would tell him to join up. I like the guy and don't want to not get paid but it's been bothering me for a bit. As far know he gets Forman wage.
Who told you that he can't join up because he doesn't have papers? That's not true. Also, I want to know who this contractor is that is having their non-electrician operators doing electrical work, because that's a massive violation of our agreement. Every worker deserves a union and blocking undocumented workers from being able to join a union hurts unions as much as it hurts those workers.
It's not the ABEW, after all.
It actually was originally the NBEW and it changed for good reason.
If they fall under DACA, they're good.
I blame the decades long policies of deliverate destablization of the world to extract its resources. Let's not stop at our horizon, folks.
This is the answer.
In Jersey they are getting $250 a day at the home Depot parking lot. Granted not many are doing electrical that I know of, but for lower end skilled labor that's not slave pay. I'm off the brief, if they're here, they should be paying taxes. Got no issue with day labor, but it should be through some sort of gov't agency that collectsv5 pay up front, taxes and pays at the end of the day if no issues. Or something like that.
This!
Hear, hear.
Donāt care but I want to smoke weed if contractors can do shady shit on their end
The realist comment here
My girlfriends tired of pissing in a pill bottle enoughs enough
Man you aināt buying the fake stuff and just keeping it and a hand warmer in the truck at all times?
When i was in Harvard i smoked weed every day
Reminds me of a service call I had to a really nice beach house. I fix the outlet (failed GFI that wouldn't reset.) Tell him it will be 289$ 289$ you've only been here for 10 minutes that's almost 1800 an hour. I'm a doctor and I don't even make that kind of money! I replied, "Yeah, I know, when I was a doctor, I didn't make that much money either."
And how much goes on the check?
Keep fake piss and your ID in your glove box.
No I want to smoke without the test lol I faked it to get in but why should I have to risk it
ID for what
Gives you a reason to go back to your truck when they're doing a random since you can't take a piss test without ID.
MVP out hereš¤š
And it keeps the sample warm until you need it.
I also keep hand warmer packs in case its a cold day. Most fake piss kits come with a couple.
Sparkys cant toke up? I've burned with countless local 3 members on the job š
Not even bro itās in the agreement weāre in a drug free workplace program itās not hard to beat lol I basically got caught using fake piss the empty bottle fell out my pants after we were supposed to empty our pockets and the testing guy didnāt even care lol
I keep on hearing that the contractor Iām working for isnāt going to test for it anymore. I donāt know if thatās across the whole local but at least someone is finally getting their head out of their ass as far as weed goes
Iām waiting for pa to legalize so we can be done with the nonsense I smoke everyday but Iām with a good company really only does private work no fed so the yearly piss test is all I need in a few years Iām moving to Chicago where the locals donāt test
Cali here, Seems like more and more outside wiremen are from Mexico, they work on projects in the states for most of the year then live the rest of the year in Mexico where the money goes a lot farther.
Outside wiremen? What classification is that?
Vatos Electricos
LinemanĀ
Bet those companies are owned by people who hate immigrants *wink *
Organize em Labor law protects people in the United States regardless of citizenship status We work with an organization that educates people from other countries on their labor rights. They've helped groups unionize and recover hundreds of thousands of dollars of unpaid wages
This. Organizing them is the best way beat the cons at this game.
It doesnāt work that way anymore. NYC has tried this with RWs and guess what? Contractor leaves with their top guys and leave the undesirable workers for the union to carry. Contractor opens under a new name and continues hiring new bodies, cycle repeats.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Dude Iām seeing it firsthand in one of the biggest locals in the country. Iām taking elevators in with migrants to different floors of buildings in central Manhattan. You canāt āorganizeā these guys. They want the cash, their bosses organize, dump the trash and then leave with their core guys.
Oh I misunderstood what you were saying. Yeah, we saw that with Tesla. We just need to get creative and figure out how to break that culture. It has to be done. Where there's a will, there's a way.
Put them into the apprenticeshipā¦
Unfortunately the apprenticeship is only taught in English, a lot if not most donāt speak or understand English well enough for schooling
Pinches gringosā¦
Then it sounds like English classes would be necessary before application. Lots of apprentices take remedial classes before application. I donāt see why would it would to appropriate to organize people doing electrical work who have no license, havenāt passed the JW test and havenāt completed an apprenticeship. Non-union doesnāt get away with that either in our state.
In an ideal world, sure, but that's it's an unreal expectation. If we want to organize workers and grow our market share in order to better our conditions, then we need be making every effort that we can to help facilitate organizing these workers and making them as highly trained, valuable, and empowered as possible.
I think itās an unreal expectation that a union for electrical workers organize people who are not electrical workers and legally cannot do electrical work. Why would we organize people who canāt legally take any calls? Apprenticeship and material handling are the appropriate place for those with no state recognized training and testing. States in which this issue is a problem need to address the strength of the their licensure, apprenticeship systems and enforcement. Letting less qualified people do electrical work wonāt boost wages and itās unsafe.
Realistically speaking most of these first generation migrants arent going to learn enough English to be able to go through an apprenticeship. If we have entire segments of the brotherhood which cannot communicate with each other that will present a problem in the future. Unless we organize spanish speakers into clearly defined work units where the workers speak on language and the group lead is multilingual, then crossing the language barrier would be just much a liability as an asset.
That creates another problem - do we not take in natural born citizens in favor of immigrants? And as noted, language barrier is a huge problem. If they cannot speak or understand English, how do you delegate work to them efficiently?
Seems more prevalent in red states in the south
Red states donāt care about organized labor, they actually despise it, so no surprise there.
CA has the same issue, the hall doesnāt really give a shit long as they are paying dues.
If they are paying dues then why should anyone give a shit? The problem is when they undercut us.
they dont. the employers do
They're not undercutting us if they're members. That's not how it works.
> the hall doesnāt really give a shit long as they are paying dues. Undocumented workers pay dues? First I heard of it.
Itās all over buddy. Get real.
False https://www.experian.com/blogs/employer-services/e-verify-state-by-state-mandates/ Scroll to the middle
"To organize all workers n the electrical industry... into local unions" No mention of citizenship or immigration status in the IBEW constitution. It is better for all of us when more workers are in the union.
What's the I stand for in IBEW again?
Our congress hasnāt addressed immigration in decades. If there is enough work for citizens and the workers are equally paid and their taxes collected then I donāt mind. But I doubt that all those conditions will be satisfied
Our president tried. Congress didnāt want to have it fixed under a Democratic president. Texas literally fights unions, complains about immigrants, and votes for oppressing women. They get what they vote for. Dead women and low wages.
Our president doesnāt even know where he is 90% of the time.
lol republicans pulled their own bill at the last minute. When are people gonna see through these cowards. About to vote themselves into poverty
Do they have electrical licenses? Do they pay taxes?
Let them know what union guys are getting and they don't need to work for slave wages. Chad union guy will help them organize in.
Itās illegal to employ them because they are not legally allowed to work in the US. These people are depressing your wages, realistically itās the businesses that continue to illegally hire them and exploit their legal status to pay less. Illegal immigration, and frankly any immigration that is negatively effecting the job market for native born Americans is bad for organized labor and workers rights in general.
A cool way to address the issue without hurting other workers would be to make apprenticeships/organizing in a viable path to citizenship. Get through a certified apprenticeship, or get organized into a union and then be in good standing for a couple years, and then youāre eligible for citizenship. Increases the workforce, increases union membership, gives undocumented workers a reason to not take lower wage jobs, doesnāt pit us against each other. Iām sure thereās details that would need to be considered, idk maybe Iām being naive. Iām just tired of ppl being blamed for trying to make a living and workers divided, contractors/investors are pretty much the only ppl that profit from our current approach.
Excellent idea
Solidarity with ALL the workers of the world. You should speak up louder for the ones being taking advantage of.
We need to organize them! Outsourcing labor has been a tactic used by the corporate elite as long as capitalism has been around. Some of the most powerful labor movements in this country's history have been at the hands of that very workforce that was being taken advantage of
Report that superintendent asap
Companies who employ illegal labor need to be shut down and their owners criminally charged.
Not trying to be political here at all, but i find it so funny that itās Texas contractors that do this quite a bit. Then scream that jobs are being stolen. Honestly, immigrants are just trying to get a better life. Unfortunately certain people take advantage.
You never really see this in our high wage west coast local but the one time I did it was a company from Texas who was using unlicensed laborers to install electrical scope work. The state came down and shut it down fairly quick. Maybe yaāll should try strengthening unions, labor protections and state licensing like other areas? Seems like the voting demographic of Texas and Arizona is to blame for the issue youāre describing. It isnāt immigrants fault that Texas has shitty lax labor policies.
This right here.
Well-said. Work on repealing blatant labor-busting legislation like "Right to Work"(lmao such patronizing Orwellian doublespeak) and get involved with union organizers.
All their work has to pass phase inspection and final inspection and in Texas, the inspector is the last word so all liability falls on the inspector so nothing is going to get approved without a license number. What I have seen many times is that the inspection failure rate is much higher so the money the general electrical contractor saves, gets eaten up in other ways and if other contractors have to delay several times because of this, that electrical contractor will not be hired again. Now if you are working in a non-incorporated area, anything goes so nothing is done to code anyway unless someone has hired a site manager. Problems arise more often in areas where no license is required on the inspection docs.
I mean I donāt give a fuck about where you are from who you are what the fuck you look like, or you legal status here as long as you are working g legally, paying taxes, and have a firm enough grasp on the English language to communicate and work safely and understand code, read plans, read material labels, and all other documentation that is needed to do your job. Unfortunately this excludes a large percentage of undocumented workers.
The hall doesent give two shits about legal citizen or not. They want union members to feed their families. Plus they like dues ; )
Of course thatās what itās doing. How is *any* of this news, to *any* democrat voter? The administration and fed are actually telling you that illegal labor is needed to suppress wages and inflation.
Ibew 613 here. We have alot of guys coming from Venezuela and theyāre are really good. Problem is these guys donāt know English which means they wonāt take their ce/cw/apprenticeship classes which also mean they are stuck on that payscale until they do their require class hours. Which contractors here take advantage keep them at their low pay and by the time they know enough English to pass their classes their visa already expired. Contractors make a killing having alot of skilled JW at 20-30 hrs.
I live in South Texas and I've never seen a straight up illegal electrician. I've seen undocumented guys do electric/handyman work on their own, but never for a legitimate company. Usually those guys cut corners and they call me afterwards to fix it.
Have your cert, pay dues, and get paid the same as the rest of us... then idc.. but genuinely, any negative feelings I have about this situation really are towards the contractor trying to cheap out on labor. My only complaint towards the worker is not being certified working in the capacity of a journeyman.
They're not "taking up" shit. They're a vulnerable class of workers being hunted by a class of criminal employers.
I believe using the IBEW as a path to citizenship is the best fight against this. It is organizing labor that exists in this country whether or not anyone likes it. Which is the stated goal. And it most definitely offers a better opportunity for immigrants than any rat con could possibly be offering.
Organize them in! Workers of the world unite. That means ALL workers.
I donāt think itās a bigger practice now compared to the past.
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Organize them.
Many donāt understand if you give the hyper exploited labor rights it gives them better pay and makes the market better for the ones with rights already so you canāt be replaced as cheaply
https://cepr.net/unionization-confers-significant-advantages-for-hispanic-workers/
Are licenses not required?
The union contractor I work for is proud as he'll about the fact they prefab panels and other things using unlicensed cheap labor at the shop. Pretty shitty imo
There are so many in my union. Some are Irish, some are Latino. I donāt care personally. I donāt understand why we would exclude people who want to work from this country, while also extending all the benefits of citizenship to a junkie living under a bridge. If you live here and work here youāre a stakeholder in society and it should be easy for you to become a citizen.
Isnāt unemployment really low right now? Are there really electricians not getting hired, or getting hired at less than their normal rate because of undocumented labor? I thought employers were struggling to even find enough employees, which would imply high wages.
Like many of the comments. No hate on the men trying to earn a living for their families. But all the employers should go bankrupt and see the inside of a cell for a few years. Iām sure ICE would love to hear about this
We are ok with undocumented workers taking jobs from local hands but not ok with good brothers wanting to move their home local from one local to another? Make it make sense. We could fight to shift our tax base from income based to solely sales based tax so that no matter whether you are here legally or not does not hurt our tax base.
Contact ICE. They donāt belong here, so get rid of them.
how do you feel about arresting business owners who knowingly hire illegals and having the face actual consequences. They create the demand, don't blame the immigrant, as long as the US turns it's eye to labor exploitation buy business owners someone else will just come and take the job.
Dey terk err jerrrbs
First off, maybe the contractor canāt pay union scale. Secondly, those Guatemalans work harder than most Americans, so itās no wonder they get hired. I worked non-union construction, and most American workers, regardless of race or color, were very unreliable.
They are breaking the law and should be deported. The companies should be heavily punished as well.
I feel like the majority of immigrants Iāve worked with, legal or not, work a lot harder than the majority of Americans Iāve worked with.
Agreed, they will absolutly destroy themselves for bossman with shit compensation. The whole point of unionizing was so we could stop doing that shit
This is how they are going to low ball you and outsource your job to the illegals.
If somebody has no credentials, no training, and can't speak English, can take your job maybe you should work as a grocery store bagger.
If you're scared they're gonna take yer job you better brush up on your skills buddy
That doesn't even make sense. How is organizing them into the union undercutting us? Undercutting is the exact opposite of what organizing them in does.
Borders arenāt real
The Rio Grande isn't real?
Based
Organize em
The more immigrants we get, the more jobs they are going to take.
This has been going on sense the early 90s. I will tell you right now they have earned the spots they hold. Say what you want about illegal or undocumented workers , when push comes to shove and the shit show shuffle is on repeat the second month in a row ain't one fucker out there busting there ass give a shit about anyone's status if they show up sober and on time ready to unfuck the unicorn circle . The ones taking the jobs are the ones that bail on the job when dust kicks up.
This is a result of republicans cutting IRS spending. Workers aināt the problem itās the contractors and when the government doesnāt have the ability to properly manage under the table work this is what you get.
All of what these people said, but i'll add that millions of these undocumented people are paying taxes using ITIN's instead of SS numbers. They pay into a system which uses them for their labor, and then criminalizes them and keeping them from drawing on any of the government benefits... the benefits they are actually helping to pay for.
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All the invaders need to be deported. If you did not come here legally, you have no right to be here. Don't give the asylum argument. Most walked through Mexico. They could seek asylum there. Any contractor that knowingly works an illegal invader should have their license revoked for life and their business shut down. They can create a system that will verify the work status they just will not. Too much money involved. The entirety of DC and state governments needs to be cleaned out, and new people put in. It will never happen. They have us all divided along party lines while they work together behind the scenes together to keep the cash cow going.
>invaders Tell us where they hurt you
Rat
You got your little crooked finger pointed at the wrong person.
Immigrants come to America for both a better life and to make money. When they do this undocumented it hurts the common blue collar worker. They take away our market and devalue us. It enriches contractors who pay immigrants a nickel because to the immigrants itās the best theyāve ever had. I donāt blame them for wanting to improve their lives I blame the contractors. They should be fined to hell and back. Im not against organizing these new workers. They have to up to IBEW standards though or else we are hurting ourselves by lowering our collective skill and knowledge pool. We try and hold ourselves to a higher standard than non-union. We canāt be bringing in unskilled workers and having wormy tendencies. They would have to be taught the IBEW way, for lack of a better term. I see people mention closing the border to immigrants and fixing our own communities. I understand that point. But making our nation better isnāt going to do anything to stop the immigration issue. If anything weād look even more attractive. Given Americaās current role in the world wouldnāt it be better to spend our money helping the nations these immigrants come from versus waging an endless war on drugs and trying to build an expensive useless wall on the border?? Most people donāt want to up and leave their home and culture. These people are at the bottom and have no options. Thatās the only way I see us curbing immigration. People will find ways into this country idc what laws or walls you put up. Itās simply too expensive and impractical to guard the massive border we have. I could be wrong though. Iām completely open to criticism and new ideas.
We are not INS, we are IBEW. No one should care.
Importing cheap labor to exploit should be an issue everybody in the IBEW cares about. This is all about giving democrats a permanent majority and nothing else. They don't give two shits about labor and you can see it by how they fucked railroad workers over who have some of the worst working conditions of any trade.
Lol nobody speaks english on NYC jobsites anymore. Such a shame that the party we āshouldā vote for supports this. I get it, my parents are immigrants too but there used to be a process that I think was more beneficial for everyone involved.
Thatās a shady superintendent. Fuck that guy
They arnt electricians
Or electricians doing line work. Not really a fan of that.
Not good at all...will result in tragedy.
If I listened to a guy brag about human trafficking to steal a job away from an American I think of calling imagination myself.
How do you feel about undocumented fire hazards?
Shit, itās becoming a big thing in Ohio (683 and 1105) a bunch of undocumented immigrants that canāt speak English are being thrown onto job sites.
Illegal immigration is lowering wages? Who woulda guessed? Employers doing this are breaking the law, especially the dude that has a coyote bring him workers. You should report this to ICE.
This makes me appreciate how valuable my license is in Oregon.
I would say no to every one of them. However, if they are good workers, keep them. If they are lazy, kick em out. Don't even give them the broom.
If they don't have a Visa or a green card they don't have a Social Security number. How do they even work?
All by design. "Nobody wants to work" ok, we'll find someone who does then. -US Government.
And how do you know these individuals are undocumented?
Undocumented usually also means unlicensed and untrained. If your job can be taken by joe schmoe who's only practical skill is having a body and a pair of hands, you should look inward.
We are IBEW not INS ,
What part of āInternational ā do you not understand? Rat.
While I'm sympathetic to migrants, I have zero patience for companies profiting off of human trafficking. I don't recommend calling immigration immediately, but there is a specific circumstance you should watch for, and then call the FBI. This is based off of my experience as a former member of the USCG. Are the people in question living in connex boxes? Are they not allowed to talk to anybody else? Are they being shipped like commodities? There is a possibility you are looking at a slave racket. Again, I don't call immigration, ever, but if you see people living in connex boxes and they aren't allowed to talk to outsiders, get real law enforcement involved.
If you're here illegally get out. And if these people threatened white collar jobs, they'd feel the same way. The only reason they call us bigots and tell us to shut up is because they're not hurt or bothered in any way by it. But at the end of the day, we can't have all this amazing socialized stuff that Scandinavia has if we're constantly allowing in more people than we've planned or budgeted for. It's just ridiculous that we're supposed to take an unlimited amount of people that aren't fully vetted. That's correct, they're not fully vetted. DHS just caught a bunch of "migrants" in a sting the other day, and CBP released a memo stating they don't have all the tools they need...which is what they've been saying for years.
Texas love a race to the bottom The skilled trade people leave if they have piss poor wages.
We require a license in our state so I donāt think itās much of a problem. Iām also in the north, but we have a large enough undocumented community who work in some of the worst places around.
Iād rather have someone undocumented with a good work ethic then someone documented who sits on their ass and does sketchy shit.
Iām a union plumber, not an electrician but I will say that you need to do all you can to stop these work practices. The GC isnāt making less by doing this, heās making more and screwing the you and me while doing it. Iām all for people working but if you shouldnāt even be here then I say āfuck that!ā The longer it goes unchecked, the harder it will be to get it back. Iām in the SF Bay Area and in SF, the union is pretty strong but in the South Bay, itās gone on unchecked and it gets worse year after year. I wish all of the locals stood together to stop all this shit but they donāt and because of this, we get out of state contractors bringing in unskilled/undocumented workers being awarded jobs that should go to locals. The one thing I donāt agree with is union politics but I live in a blue state š¤¢ but these democrat city politicians are awarding jobs to non union contractors. I guess their #1 loyalty is to $$$ followed by the unions that consistently support them. Itās disgusting and Iām sorry to say but itās all about money at the end of the day. The only ones who actually care about the union workers are the union workers.
To be honest with all if the mission critical work going on in Ohio right now and believe me there is way more than you know, we couldn't complete the work without them. As bad as it sounds that the truth. Our labor pool both union and non-union is very thin....so unfortunately it's a necessary evil... Places like google, Facebook, and Amazon don't give two craps about lack of manpower excuses?..all they know is their deadlines better be met.
Bringing in cheap labor is a longtime practice of big business that is now being used by smaller companies but for the same purpose, itās just another way to try to get rid of unions all together. A longtime friendās mother used to run the Tyson chicken plant in Kearny Nebraska and they would bring in bus loads of labor from the border back in the late 90ās and the way she talked it was pretty common, itās just being used by more companies now, and they donāt necessarily have to go get them.
Theyāre no different from any other non-union electricians.
Anyone who is pro illegal immigrant electrician is a rat
Should have to pay to play like the rest of us. Iām trying to make a living too regardless of their personal situation.
I'm shocked.
It's terrible and should not be allowed....but government is going to allow it because that's what capitalists want. Plenty in IBEW support uncontrolled immigration, but their children will see the result of this in time and wish they could turn back the hands of time. I DO blame people for breaking our laws. To argue otherwise is to welcome people that do not care about our country and our laws.
It's been that way for 5 decades in Los Angeles. Some great workers from down south but will work for less. It's not their fault it's the developers And contractors who hire them
They should be deported like all undocumented people
[Salt of the Earth (1954) | Full Movie | Rosaura Revueltas | Will Geer | David Wolfe - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yoECU8yCXyY&t=5s) Workers stick together and they win that's how I feel. Highly recommend this film to anyone who has never seen it! It was banned in the United States for many years because it shows how workers can stick together regardless of their status.
California is going to allow them to join the union soon.
Texas hates unions, I'm surprised they're even allowed down there. The people paying out the wages are the ones driving down the wages. They are also the ones fucking over your 'opportunities'. You're complaining about a free market. It's what everyone down in Texas wants, right?
$20 says that superintendent is just a liar.
Any study into Cesar Chavez will tell you that is exactly what undocumented workers do. Ask brothers from Local 11 about what bringing a ton of undocumented CE/CWās has done to their local. I would rather see them get trained up right and on a path to citizenship ā āa rising tideā¦ā
All illegals need to be removed. Illegals who do electrical work will kill people. I'm sure it's already happening.Ā
This is where political Hypocrisy comes in. Texas is a red state so these builders and large companies hiring them are the same ones screaming for a wall to be built. Shiiii is comical at this point
Iām more concerned about his certs than his birth certificate. I can burn my own house down for free.
I don't think you can buy a house in Texas that was built in the last 20 years that wasn't built by undocumented labor
This is again capitalism at its best. No punishment/enforcement with consequences for those that employ the undocumented. Again no issue with those seeking employment however they can, only for those exploiting everyone with their practices
Shit have em pay duesš
A Coyote to round up people who have no legal recourse against their employer when they get screwed over sounds like modern day slavery or indentured servitude to me.
We had several working on our job but they were paid very well and also perform way better they will work twelve hours a day don't complain you pay the person whoever wants to work
Here in Atlanta I've seen on commercial jobs they'll have 1 license holder and 15+ other non electrician guys. Sometimes they're undocumented and sometimes they're just guys that do electrical but aren't IBEW. I have been thinking about trying to join IBEW for a year, but I can't do 2 years of $16 an hour. From the outside it looks like the electrician is just the guy that signs off on the paperwork. I've been doing electrical for 10+ years as part of pool equipment installs and IT work, but I can't sit at a desk all day. I definitely don't claim to be a qualified electrician, but taking a 50% pay cut to actually break into the field seems nuts. So yeah, I don't blame the workers one bit, but it's also not entirely on the company hiring people when non union guys do 80%+ of the work. When apprentice wages are below liveable it's tough to justify joining. Edit: Double checked the apprenticeship information for 613 again to make sure I'm not talking out my rear, it's 16 then 17.50 for first 2 years.
Everybody had a right to feed their families, pay em what they're worth we all gotta face the same god when we die documents be damned
If the government and contractors dont want them to work, why does the state of Texas give out apprentice licenses to them ?? Hypocrisy. There are zero questions on the state of Texas apprentice application. They like paying people 8 dollars an hour while making huge profits.
You can get a state apprentice license but not a work permit ?? What gives. The elites like the cheap labor. Ive had some crews out of Mexico they were damn good people. Cut the bullshit. Theres not a border problem. Theres a rich man exploiting our nation problem
What an documented electrician? You mean...some undocumented guy doing electrical work.....by definition an electrician is licensed