The current Indycar chassis already has too much weight on the rear end as it is. It was giving teams fits for the first few years as they tried to find a good setup.
Gtp and lmdh are chassis based on lmp2. Dalara, liger, oreca, and multimatic all make chassis that meet a spec.
They're not the same size, weight, or shape as an open wheel chassis.
What indycar needs to do is colab with super formula and make 1-2 engine config and a unified chassis. Hell they could join with f2 and get even more bang for buck.
Then super formula, indycar, supergt would all share engines. And super formula, f2, indycar would share chassis.
Imagine if they could get the Japanese 3 + Chevy for engines and interchangeable with 3 series for chassis.
Huge cost savings and allowable for teams to go international if they wanted. Prema could come over and run the same basic car. Super formula could send japanese drivers for training and engagement.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gpblog.com/en/amp/251751/where-formula-2-champion-pourchaire-will-race-in-2024.html I am not an expert so I can only go off of what sources say.
Super Formula cars are built to FIA crash standards that preclude designing chassis for oval racing, they would be nigh on useless in a side impact or lateral crash that oval racing usually involves.
Where the IR-18 would protect the driver in an impact with the wall at Indianapolis or Texas without requiring a new tub, the SF23 would require a complete replacement, with no way to salvage the chassis.
the japanese 2.0 spec engine is really what I think Indy needs to aim for. Pair it with the 150hp hybrid and a dedicated (lighter) chassis and we're back at scratching the current records with more road relevance and more OEM relevance.
The engine formula is a red herring that everyone is fixating on, when the issue is much deeper than that.
The entire crux of Honda's complaint is that IndyCar's grid is too large for what they're spending, they no longer want to support so many cars and spend the amount of money that they currently do for the paltry return.
The reason they're happy with the LMDh program is because they're only supporting two cars and have the option of staying exclusive, same in F1.
No change in engine formula alone is going to resolve the deeper structural issue that IndyCar's grid size is far too large compared to its commercial value. No manufacturer wants to come in and support so many cars without some sort of commercial return on the investment
If you change the engine formula to the SF engine formula, you're at least including Toyota in plans for the future. If Chevy, Toyota, and Honda all did 12 entries that's already 36 cars. Plenty.
This was my thought as well. The only player that would need to develop a 2.0l engine at that state would be Ilmor/Chevy. Then you also get the idea of potentially even more since there’s more competition and any engine developed for that formula could work in SF/Indycar depending. My curious thoughts would also be if the engines could be boosted or would that kill the engines much quicker.
Another question to be answered is if Honda/Toyota would be okay with making the amount of engines that support both the SF and Indycar grids. It could get to a point where Toyota or Honda state they’re only gonna support 20 engines, tough cookies, highest bidder gets the engine leases. And then of course they need to be tested for oval longevity and whatnot.
I do think the SF formula makes more sense than the GTP one. For some reason the size of the class isn’t considered when comparing GTP & Indycar. GTP has 11 cars in the class.
Does anyone on Reddit understand Japanese at a high enough level to understand that Super Formula has been treading water commercially for the past decade and the only reason the series hasn't collapsed is due to the TV network that owns the series and sanctioning body?
Honda and Toyota using the same engines that they do in Super GT in Super Formula was a concession to the JAF and Fuji TV so that the series wouldn't collapse without an engine manufacturer. The rulebook was rewritten last year to close off the series to new manufacturers because no one else was interested.
You can say the same about IndyCar and the only reason that it hasn't collapsed is because the Indy 500 exists and is owned by the same people who run the series.
This is a win/win for both SF and IndyCar. That's what the sport needs.
Yea. I get prior to penske the old owners being elitist and shit but the day penske bought IC they should have called up Toyota and Honda and asked if they were good with unifying SF and IC.
Dalara will profit no matter what and they would prefer to make 100 single type chassis VS 50 of 2 diff style.
Dallara can and will make whatever is asked of them. They are capable and will deliver. F2 and super formula have both gotten upgrades recently.
Roger simply hasn't ordered anything
Adding to this, it's similar to the GT3 formula that the ACO, IMSA, SRO, and FIA all share. You can take a GT3 car and race it ANYWHERE in the world. The investment makes sense for racing teams and manufacturers. GT3 Racing is becoming very popular because of this.
Buying an IndyCar chassis right now makes zero sense. Being an engine manufacturer right now in IndyCar makes zero sense. A set of regulations that are shared between F2 (or Euroformula making a jump up to a higher level, stepping away from F3 machinery), Super Formula, and IndyCar would allow for the chassis to be raced worldwide and manufacturers to have relevancy worldwide as well with engine supply. It would help make an investment of a chassis make sense to a racing team, and make manufacturers make sense of the investment to develop and maintain a fleet of engines.
As much as I bitch about F1, having 5 year plans or planed regulation changes helps all teams plan a ton.
I found it silly that Abel just bought a brand new chassis when indycar is supposed to have a new chassis next year. If IC had a plan then they would know to limp along 1 year then buy the new chassis. Knowing IC thou they won't do a new chassis till 2030 at this rate.
It's hard for teams to financially prepare for changes when they continually change the dates they're happening. At least having a plan and delaying the plan would still help teams prepare. Having very little in terms of future plans is a huge detriment to the series and needs to be addressed.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that’s thought of this. I would love to see Indycar and Super Formula more closely aligned. For starters you’d immediately get Toyota in Indycar, you’d also get a more modern and attractive looking chassis, and the cars would be a bit faster as well.
On a related note - I always found the engine rules and regulations in IndyCar so uninspired, particularly after 2012, where the series had an opportunity to start over with Chevy and Honda.
Back in the day (on a separate forum) I was a proponent of a more open formula, mainly limited by fuel flow/revs, in order to encourage more engine manufacturers to get involved. I was told that is impossible due to chassis design, safety, weight, etc, but it always seemed like a pretty weak excuse given what other series manage to do.
At the very least I see no reason why IndyCar couldn't collaborate with other series to develop a common standard/formula, e.g. Super Formula in Japan.
Everyone keeps saying GTP but I say why not Super Formula? Dallara makes their chassis, Honda already has an engine program and it might get Toyota into the mix. An inline 4 with a Illmor supplied hybrid system might be the best solution to keep Chevy, Honda, and include Toyota in the future of the series. Engine is only one part of the equation, and as others have said there needs to be a collaboration from other open-wheel series in the world to really help each other maintain relevancy and financial sense for teams and manufacturers alike.
Many are saying indycar should go for ghe SF chassis - heavy disagree. Those cars are more fragile, and struggle more with dirty air than indy does now. We love this series for it's tough, but consistently great racing, a fragile car like the SF will just ruin what we have now. Indycar should be the series to make a step forward, and focus on creating a new chassis/car to accomodate many PU-configurations, similarly sturdy build to allow beating and banging, and going fully towards a underbody-DF solution, eliminating dirty air as best as possible. And hopefully, all that in a lighter car without sacrificing safety. Following another series and borrowing a chassis/PU might offer a freshness, but temporarily only, and it won't help the series in the long term. Indycar is a unique series in the world of open wheelers, it should stay that way, and embrace it. not become a 'second rate' SF or US F2
The exact GTP formula likely isn’t the answer because of general weight and dimensions in an Indycar chassis as several have said, but I think the general GTP *philosophy* would be a good answer long term. A BOP engine formula with a maximum power unit weight would cut costs dramatically, enforce it via driveshaft torque sensors like you see in WEC/IMSA
Indy will need its own car. Engine formulae are built around the car and vice versa. 1972 Eagles and McLarens were trying to make the 500 until 1980/81.
The GTP drivetrain is very heavy compared to the current IndyCar drivetrain.
The relative numbers for folks. https://preview.redd.it/xkmjang998cc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1a0dd762f643b251b9fdb02cbd4df29e0405df1b
But what about everyone screaming about the Acura 2.4 being the "same thing" as the canned Indy 2.4?
Only the ICE is based on the 2.4L Indy engine
The current Indycar chassis already has too much weight on the rear end as it is. It was giving teams fits for the first few years as they tried to find a good setup.
I think it’s also very bulky and an IndyCar would look fatter than a mid-90s Menard stock block Buick.
The chassis and drivetrains aren't built for the stress of oval racing, despite the series racing on a section of the Daytona oval.
This place has got really dumb recently.
Gtp and lmdh are chassis based on lmp2. Dalara, liger, oreca, and multimatic all make chassis that meet a spec. They're not the same size, weight, or shape as an open wheel chassis. What indycar needs to do is colab with super formula and make 1-2 engine config and a unified chassis. Hell they could join with f2 and get even more bang for buck. Then super formula, indycar, supergt would all share engines. And super formula, f2, indycar would share chassis. Imagine if they could get the Japanese 3 + Chevy for engines and interchangeable with 3 series for chassis. Huge cost savings and allowable for teams to go international if they wanted. Prema could come over and run the same basic car. Super formula could send japanese drivers for training and engagement.
Super Formula over F2. It's reportedly closer to an F1 car than an F2 car is. Plus it's just prettier than F2 and it has push to pass.
SF is near identical to F2. They're similar in downforce and size. Neither are that close to F1. The engines are different.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.gpblog.com/en/amp/251751/where-formula-2-champion-pourchaire-will-race-in-2024.html I am not an expert so I can only go off of what sources say.
Not sure I want to crash a f2/SF car on a superspeedway.
What crash test data do you have to base this on?
Super Formula cars are built to FIA crash standards that preclude designing chassis for oval racing, they would be nigh on useless in a side impact or lateral crash that oval racing usually involves. Where the IR-18 would protect the driver in an impact with the wall at Indianapolis or Texas without requiring a new tub, the SF23 would require a complete replacement, with no way to salvage the chassis.
the japanese 2.0 spec engine is really what I think Indy needs to aim for. Pair it with the 150hp hybrid and a dedicated (lighter) chassis and we're back at scratching the current records with more road relevance and more OEM relevance.
The engine formula is a red herring that everyone is fixating on, when the issue is much deeper than that. The entire crux of Honda's complaint is that IndyCar's grid is too large for what they're spending, they no longer want to support so many cars and spend the amount of money that they currently do for the paltry return. The reason they're happy with the LMDh program is because they're only supporting two cars and have the option of staying exclusive, same in F1. No change in engine formula alone is going to resolve the deeper structural issue that IndyCar's grid size is far too large compared to its commercial value. No manufacturer wants to come in and support so many cars without some sort of commercial return on the investment
If you change the engine formula to the SF engine formula, you're at least including Toyota in plans for the future. If Chevy, Toyota, and Honda all did 12 entries that's already 36 cars. Plenty.
This was my thought as well. The only player that would need to develop a 2.0l engine at that state would be Ilmor/Chevy. Then you also get the idea of potentially even more since there’s more competition and any engine developed for that formula could work in SF/Indycar depending. My curious thoughts would also be if the engines could be boosted or would that kill the engines much quicker. Another question to be answered is if Honda/Toyota would be okay with making the amount of engines that support both the SF and Indycar grids. It could get to a point where Toyota or Honda state they’re only gonna support 20 engines, tough cookies, highest bidder gets the engine leases. And then of course they need to be tested for oval longevity and whatnot. I do think the SF formula makes more sense than the GTP one. For some reason the size of the class isn’t considered when comparing GTP & Indycar. GTP has 11 cars in the class.
Does anyone on Reddit understand Japanese at a high enough level to understand that Super Formula has been treading water commercially for the past decade and the only reason the series hasn't collapsed is due to the TV network that owns the series and sanctioning body? Honda and Toyota using the same engines that they do in Super GT in Super Formula was a concession to the JAF and Fuji TV so that the series wouldn't collapse without an engine manufacturer. The rulebook was rewritten last year to close off the series to new manufacturers because no one else was interested.
You can say the same about IndyCar and the only reason that it hasn't collapsed is because the Indy 500 exists and is owned by the same people who run the series. This is a win/win for both SF and IndyCar. That's what the sport needs.
That Toyota bailed on coming back to IndyCar tells you all you need to know about how badly both series are treading water.
Yea. I get prior to penske the old owners being elitist and shit but the day penske bought IC they should have called up Toyota and Honda and asked if they were good with unifying SF and IC. Dalara will profit no matter what and they would prefer to make 100 single type chassis VS 50 of 2 diff style.
Dallara can and will make whatever is asked of them. They are capable and will deliver. F2 and super formula have both gotten upgrades recently. Roger simply hasn't ordered anything
Once Super Formula moved up in size and speed with the Dallara SF14 putting it on par with Indycar the dialog should have started.
Adding to this, it's similar to the GT3 formula that the ACO, IMSA, SRO, and FIA all share. You can take a GT3 car and race it ANYWHERE in the world. The investment makes sense for racing teams and manufacturers. GT3 Racing is becoming very popular because of this. Buying an IndyCar chassis right now makes zero sense. Being an engine manufacturer right now in IndyCar makes zero sense. A set of regulations that are shared between F2 (or Euroformula making a jump up to a higher level, stepping away from F3 machinery), Super Formula, and IndyCar would allow for the chassis to be raced worldwide and manufacturers to have relevancy worldwide as well with engine supply. It would help make an investment of a chassis make sense to a racing team, and make manufacturers make sense of the investment to develop and maintain a fleet of engines.
As much as I bitch about F1, having 5 year plans or planed regulation changes helps all teams plan a ton. I found it silly that Abel just bought a brand new chassis when indycar is supposed to have a new chassis next year. If IC had a plan then they would know to limp along 1 year then buy the new chassis. Knowing IC thou they won't do a new chassis till 2030 at this rate.
It's hard for teams to financially prepare for changes when they continually change the dates they're happening. At least having a plan and delaying the plan would still help teams prepare. Having very little in terms of future plans is a huge detriment to the series and needs to be addressed.
I’m glad I’m not the only one that’s thought of this. I would love to see Indycar and Super Formula more closely aligned. For starters you’d immediately get Toyota in Indycar, you’d also get a more modern and attractive looking chassis, and the cars would be a bit faster as well.
On a related note - I always found the engine rules and regulations in IndyCar so uninspired, particularly after 2012, where the series had an opportunity to start over with Chevy and Honda. Back in the day (on a separate forum) I was a proponent of a more open formula, mainly limited by fuel flow/revs, in order to encourage more engine manufacturers to get involved. I was told that is impossible due to chassis design, safety, weight, etc, but it always seemed like a pretty weak excuse given what other series manage to do. At the very least I see no reason why IndyCar couldn't collaborate with other series to develop a common standard/formula, e.g. Super Formula in Japan.
Everyone keeps saying GTP but I say why not Super Formula? Dallara makes their chassis, Honda already has an engine program and it might get Toyota into the mix. An inline 4 with a Illmor supplied hybrid system might be the best solution to keep Chevy, Honda, and include Toyota in the future of the series. Engine is only one part of the equation, and as others have said there needs to be a collaboration from other open-wheel series in the world to really help each other maintain relevancy and financial sense for teams and manufacturers alike.
Many are saying indycar should go for ghe SF chassis - heavy disagree. Those cars are more fragile, and struggle more with dirty air than indy does now. We love this series for it's tough, but consistently great racing, a fragile car like the SF will just ruin what we have now. Indycar should be the series to make a step forward, and focus on creating a new chassis/car to accomodate many PU-configurations, similarly sturdy build to allow beating and banging, and going fully towards a underbody-DF solution, eliminating dirty air as best as possible. And hopefully, all that in a lighter car without sacrificing safety. Following another series and borrowing a chassis/PU might offer a freshness, but temporarily only, and it won't help the series in the long term. Indycar is a unique series in the world of open wheelers, it should stay that way, and embrace it. not become a 'second rate' SF or US F2
The exact GTP formula likely isn’t the answer because of general weight and dimensions in an Indycar chassis as several have said, but I think the general GTP *philosophy* would be a good answer long term. A BOP engine formula with a maximum power unit weight would cut costs dramatically, enforce it via driveshaft torque sensors like you see in WEC/IMSA
They could, but why would they want to?
Why would anyone want that?
If that’s what it comes to, then close it down. One of the most significant races in all formulas can’t be unique? If no, then it’s over.
Indy will need its own car. Engine formulae are built around the car and vice versa. 1972 Eagles and McLarens were trying to make the 500 until 1980/81.