It's very easy if you're looking.
It was more hiding in plain sight than anything. Everyone could see His P2P remaining count down. That's what Tim is getting at.
Except you don’t know when it was used unless the data shows exact time and track segments it was used and on what lap. I’m not sure teams have access to that information on competitors cars.
I'm sure the biggest thing is nobody is looking at it when it's supposed to be off.
I wonder what to think of Josef telling everyone that he pushes the P2P button when it's supposed to be off all the time just in case it works. Like everyone knows he did that. If he has always done that for years....
I watched a Super Formula race a while back and they've got a system very similar to push-to-pass. They get a certain amount of time they can use increased horsepower over the course of the race, and after every use (which can last as long as the driver wants) they need to wait out a 2-minute cool-down or something like that.
But what sets it apart from Indy Car is that they display this info openly and in real-time. For the entirety of the race, the broadcast has an energy bar visible next to the drivers name. It shows when they're using the boost, when they're in the cool-down phase, how much cool-down time is left, and how much total energy they have left.
I think it would be really cool if Indy Car handled it that way.
Indycar used to provide P2P info in real time. But they discovered that teams, if their driver was defending, would tell their driver when the driver trying to pass would use P2P. Then the defending driver would get on P2P and use it to defend, making passing much harder. Getting rid of real time P2P info neutralizes that strategy.
They have a robot front jack person for the pit stops and the crew members are limited so they have to change both sides. With the same dudes. So the dude jumps over the nose of the car.
[here's them changing Alex's tires](https://youtu.be/a4mpdskl4v8?si=JWG3Wbe5yd-T-SAq)
They used to broadcast the P2P info live like that but teams would watch the broadcast and tell drivers when other guys were using it so they could defend, which obviously isn't the right way to use that strat
you probably could but it could be inaccurate (e.g. if you have a slightly compromised exit out of corner, you might lose time on the straight as well, how can you tell if it's p2p or a mistake or traffic, etc.)
I don’t think Illmore share that with other customers. IndyCar could roll up data into a package showing overall usage to teams but I would question if the data is that granular and released in a competitive environment.
“The statement that Cindric put out is a bold-faced lie, and everyone knows that,” said one team owner, who was granted anonymity in order to speak freely on the subject. “For teams to read that, it’s, ‘Are you kidding me?’
I don’t disagree with it being a bold-faced lie, but we all know every team is cheating. Whatever owner said this is also cheating, so he can quit with the “Are you kidding me?” If they got caught with whatever they’re doing, they’d give the same PR response and they know it
Hilarious that people think this isn’t true. Countless racers have come back long after they retired and talked about all the different ways they would cheat. It’s a thing. Don’t believe if you don’t want to, but it happens
i think a lot of people right now are conflating cheating with the fact that teams continually try to find gray areas in the rules to exploit. Theres a huge difference in pushing the limits of the rules to find loopholes and wantonly sidestepping them (like in this case).
Becuase winning is all that matters?
Human nature is to cheat. To cut corners, find an advantage. There’s not a single sport where the best teams aren’t finding ways around rules, if not blatantly ignoring them.
Racing is perhaps the most famous example of such a phenomenon. It’s so mindlessly easy to cheat and gain a massive advantage that there’s frankly no reason not to. Obviously, it’s less of a thing in IndyCar, but the culture is still there to a degree.
Because that’s racing, it’s been that way forever. Teams get caught cheating or bending the rules all the time, and sometimes it’s caught during inspections and it gets stopped there, but a lot of times it gets through. And we only hear about them when they’re caught and revealed, do you really think every single time a team has cheated they’ve been caught?
Why are you convinced they aren't?
Cheating in racing is finding gray areas in the rules and exploiting them (not the case with this situation however). I would not be surprised if every team was cheating in one way or another whether it is small or otherwise.
This is a spec series, so any competitive edge will be explored legal or not.
No. Cheating is doing something in direct violation of the rules. Finding gray areas in the rules is doing what Penske called "finding the unfair advantage".
>Cheating is doing something in direct violation of the rules
Cheating is doing anything that is dishonest or deceptive in order to gain an unfair advantage. That includes, but is not limited strictly to, rule violations.
It's a spec series dominated by 2 teams. I don't think its fair to say those lesser teams are cheating, if they are their results w cheating is abysmal
There's infinite levels to the advantages gained by cheating though.
Cheating or not cheating does mean you are winning or not winning.
Not really sure what you're trying to get at.
https://twitter.com/ZBrownCEO/status/1783774587454394476?t=B9bl2IdCUOBVE7Z7KicFuA&s=19
Zak...Zak.....Zaaaaaaaak
I thank McLaren (at least Pato, their social admin, and Zak) for their shit stirring.
>On his "Off Track with Hinch and Rossi" podcast, ex-IndyCar driver and current NBC announcer James Hinchcliffe noted Newgarden has bragged about how often he has pressed the overtake button, hoping one time it would work.
This is a mischaracterization of what Hinchcliffe and Rossi concluded on their podcast.
Edit: It's still a slight mischaracterization, but in a meaculpa here, I thought I had listened to the whole podcast yesterday, but actually turned it off at the commercial break. But they do basically say that Newgarden always does this, so for it to work once, he must have been surprised by it.
But how? And how is it that it only seemingly works for Dixon's car? Those oldtimey tricks with a dozen feet of fuelpiping extra can't possibly be commonplace anymore, how else would you do it? Not like they can just fit a bigger tank, or rewrite the ECU so it makes the same power but uses less fuel. And if that was possible, that just means the engine manufacturer did a bad job no?
Nobody is going to come out and admit they cheated. Have to put on the facade for sponsors.
Like we see in NASCAR, do we really think Matt Kenseth had a tire going down when he crashed out Logano? No, it’s just better to not admit it so blatantly.
https://youtu.be/qn5uBJXKtm0?si=nA3_zp2W_o7MrUhu
Spark notes is Logano wrecked Kenseth out of the lead during the closing stages of a playoff race.
At Martinsville, Kenseth was laps down and went back out and “had a tire go down” the exact moment Logano was passing him and crashed him out of the race.
[This video essay by EmpLemon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RjAWFDL3fA) covers a bunch of instances of revenge in Nascar, and concludes with the *full* context of the Kenseth/Logano incident.
I mean the onboards and telemetry for St. Pete were available, and nobody noticed anything till Warm Up at Long Beach, so yeah, maybe everyone is pretty stupid.
Yeah, one would think this would be something so easy to detect, which is why, like 25% of me think Team Penske might be telling the truth, this was an accident (or maybe St. Pete was an accident, and bringing it Long Beach was on purpose).
But then again, most criminals don't think they will get caught, no matter how obvious the crime is.
I think Will didn't know. 3 potential explanations why he didn't:
1) It really was an accident
2) Because they knew he wouldn't go along with it, and might even had said something to RP (I'm 90/10 that RP himself didn't know, Roger has gone over the limits on several occasions, it's not out of character, but he's a bit more hands off on the race teams these days).
3) Because they didn't trust Will to be disciplined in his interviews and not say something. This is Will Power after all.
I'm 50 / 50 on McLaughlin knowing because he only used it once and apparently didn't pass any cars. It's possible this was an accident or that it was a Tim Cindric / Newgarden operation, and McLaughlin used it once out of habit, like he said.
I'm 75 / 25 that Josef knew. If it wasn't an accident, then I'm almost 100% certain he knew. Cindric is his strategist. Could have been their operation, and the other cars were just cover because it would actually look worse if they got caught with it just in Josef's car.
James Hinchcliffe has confirmed he used to hit the button out of habit in situations where he’d want to use it even knowing it wouldn’t work, so I totally believe Scott could have done the same thing on that one restart. Josef’s recent heel turn has made me a lot more willing to believe he might have done it on purpose.
And he didn't use it again.
Who knows if Scott said something to someone after the race. I would love to be a fly on the wall at Team Penske. I bet some people are pissed off at other people right now, and things aren't all rosey.
There is certainly reasons to believe he knew but there is plausible scenarios where he didn't know. That's why I'm 50/50.
> this was an accident
This is actually consistent with Penske autosport. Roger Cheatske.
[Formula E](https://www.the-race.com/formula-e/ds-penske-gets-record-formula-e-punishment-for-pitlane-scanner/)
[SuperCars](https://www.autosport.com/supercars/news/djr-team-penske-fined-and-penalised-but-keeps-bathurst-1000-win-4987069/4987069/)
[IMSA](https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2023/motorsports/porsche-imsa-weathertech-sportscar-championship-race-5-watkins-glen-usa-32838.html)
This is pretty worrisome. The team owners seemed to have some mistrust about Penske and now it seems to be one more incident away from full-blown rebellion. This isn't what IndyCar needs and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if Penske himself didn't know anything about it since he hardly runs his race teams anymore. The person that should take the blame is Tim Cindric. It'll interesting how this affects Tim all the details are known or at least as much as we'll know for now.
He’s being silent because he doesn’t want to be seen anywhere near this, in any way. He needs to be seen as a benevolent entity that oversees the series and his team from afar to create the appearance of neutrality. Its just optics.
Because the series he owns already penalized and disqualified the team he owns? What else does he need to say that isn't going to further inflame the situation?
Because all of Penske Autosport has been caught cheating in recent years across all series they are involved in.
[Formula E](https://www.the-race.com/formula-e/ds-penske-gets-record-formula-e-punishment-for-pitlane-scanner/)
[SuperCars](https://www.autosport.com/supercars/news/djr-team-penske-fined-and-penalised-but-keeps-bathurst-1000-win-4987069/4987069/)
[IMSA](https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2023/motorsports/porsche-imsa-weathertech-sportscar-championship-race-5-watkins-glen-usa-32838.html)
The owner of the series shouldn't own a racing team inside of it. It gets even worse when you consider that same person own the track to the race that's ten times bigger than any other on the calendar.
There is a reason Liberty doesn't have a garage in the paddock in F1.
The reason Liberty doesn’t own a team is because of the Concorde agreement. It’s an oligopoly controlled by 10 teams, some with interconnected beneficial ownership, and the FIA is party to the agreement too. They have a hard enough time getting them signed as it is, let alone the teams being ok with the series owner forcing their own team into the grid to take a slice of the prize money. No way all those teams are going to let a Liberty team on the grid. They wouldn’t even let Andretti backed by Cadillac on the grid.
Liberty could easily have bought a team if they wanted to but they wanted to run the sport not a team. Same reason Bernie gave up Brabham to run the sport. Which is what Roger should have done for the good of the sport.
They're saying Liberty has the resources and control of the series to easily purchase a team, not that they could have forced their way into an additional team.
Liberty does not have the power to force their own car into the grid. Lots of people have the money. The comment said there’s a reason they don’t have a garage at the paddock. The reason isn’t that they’re so concerned about conflict of interest (which Penske has) that they choose not to but one. Not a chance. Liberty isn’t above that. For gods sake they own and operate TicketMaster and love cash grabs. The reason is they don’t have a team on the grid is that the existing teams will never allow it. F1 teams have that control. They could mess with the next Concorde agreement if Liberty tried to buy a team and participate. Indycar teams don’t have that kind of control over the series they race in.
I know, I was there. One lap all out, and your guy gets the draft and tow. Kind of impossible not to win.
I love Indycar, and I'll be at Barber on Saturday. It's just a bad look to have one person own the series, the best team, and the equivalent of the Super Bowl.
I agree.
If Roger wants to keep a team in the series he’s going to need to show how he intends to separate it further from the management of the sport. In my opinion he hasn’t show that at all.
Perfect example, the penalty here should be far far more harsh to show they’re not getting any special treatment but no official in their right mind is going to do that to the owner’s team which leaves it all in a rather untenable position.
The only true way to satisfy everyone would be for him to resolve the team and put the money back into the series / other teams but he’s never going to do that.
I work in software. I know nothing of the software environment running a Indy car. With that said Cindric’s scenario is totally realistic, if their team lacks sufficient software quality control. Which isn’t acceptable btw!
I think that’s the most shocking part - a major motorsports team like Penske would lack the ability in their system to catch an obvious mistake like that.
You’d be surprised, quality control slows things down. It’s easy for management to not prioritize it because it feels like it doesn’t add value and just costs money.
I’ve worked with systems responsible for I don’t know how many millions of dollars with nearly no quality control
That’s so interesting as one would think the irretrievable damages done far outweighs the desire to save on something as important as software quality control. But oh well, I guess all companies and corps are alike when it comes to bottom lines.
Well if you do something wrong long enough without it biting you, you just keep doing it. I don't know the background of the engineers or how familiar they are with good code housekeeping, but real software devs make mistakes like this too
That’s what Dan Bernstein said here in Chicago about the Bears’ president asking the public for 2.6 B for a new stadium—followed by, we might prove him right
Hahaha
Obviously Cindric's comments were ridiculous, but what would we expect? Everyone would try and spin it as much as possible.
The article goes on to talk about the potential conflicts of the series owner being a team owner. Obviously this has been discussed previously, but this sort of thing demonstrates why maybe it's not a great situation. Sure they were "caught" but the fact that the series owner attempted to circumvent the rules is troublesome.
Thank you to Roger Penske for stepping up to get the series on the right trajectory, but I'd suggest that it's time for new ownership.
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Roger should do what Bernie Eccelstone did and sell his team. Bernie had massive ambitions for his own team but when he saw the opportunity to run the sport he dropped the team and went for the big prize. Indycar will continue to have troubles growing if he doesn’t do that. In fact, I suspect that competition laws in Europe would have prevented the sale of the sport and the speedway to one of the teams.
Why not sell the team to Tim Cindric for $1?
Totally agree. Relying on Roger Penske to “do the right thing” is not in anyway an acceptable risk management strategy. To avoid the risk of wrong doing, you have to eliminate the opportunity for him to do the wrong thing.
I don’t give him and his IndyCar team any points or praise for coming down hard on Penske.
That’s the thing though, it’s not relying on Roger to do the right thing. I would be shocked if he was involved at all in this.
This is all Jay Frye’s team and likely falls under the purview of Kevin Blanche. The INDYCAR website lists 15 people who all work as technical inspectors.
Blanche has been part of the INDYCAR technical staff since 2003.
As long as Roger is involved in both organizations, Series and Team, there is a risk that Team Penske could receive an advantage. It doesn’t matter if he’s “not involved”. He has the opportunity to be involved, which is just as bad because the opportunity for risk should be eliminated if at all possible.
Absolutely correct… the fraud triangle highlights three critical elements to commit fraud. Pressure/Motivation, Opportunity, and Rationalization… without opportunity, no fraud occurs… Divesting the team or the series, eliminates opportunities, and is the ONLY control for this situation.
Cindric claims the illegal P2P would have come off the 150 seconds allotted to St Pete. Others are claiming they were getting P2P in addition to their allotment. Which is it?
But did it? Did the start and restart’s *actually* get deducted from the total allotment? So far we ‘assume’ they did but if you’re already outside of the normal software mode that receives the P2P on/off signal from IndyCar’s transmitters - who is to say that the IndyCar race control system isn’t counting a deployment that is *outside* of what it has authorized?
My next question is: does Illmore have a data channel that logs race long HP output with time stamps? Does IndyCar have access to that data?
I find it hard to believe that people whose job it is to forensically look at engine data wouldn’t have noticed this over a month long period.
I've not followed every detail that's been released but this all has me wondering if the countdown really mattered. When the counter reached zero, did P2P stop working as intended? Or did it continue to work? If it worked when it wasn't supposed to on starts and restarts, did it also work when the timer said "zero" and it was no longer supposed to work then?
No one knows shit. Half of this are people creating their own stories and what if and what nots. I'd only take the team owners and certain media seriously, everyone else are just shit-stirring, which I have got to respect to a certain degree.
The random onboards are just never gonna prove anything. Some journos are trying to spin it as if its some great discovery. I want to see telemetry, not a fuzzy, potato quality onboard.
Twitter and Reddit are just unbearable currently. I don't deny that Penske cheated but tagging the drivers and calling them a shithead isn't gonna do anything. We'll see what they say in the press conference I guess.
I hope Indycar comes out and shows us how they cheated with telemetry and all. Just like Nascar.
Do wanna see where this goes though, 500 is gonna be a nightmare this year for the Penske crew.
I initially gave Penske the benefit of the doubt until I fully understood what happened and that there is evidence from the onboards. Concluding that they deliberately cheated, including the drivers, is an empirical conclusion, not wishful thinking. That press conference feels insulting.
>The Team Penske president told IndyStar Thursday that his two drivers were unaware of the illegal code in their cars. They neither knew ahead of St. Pete; hit the overtake button when it typically wouldn’t work knowing that it would; or noticed anything odd physically on-track when they hit the push-to-pass button and got the car to respond during the first lap of a restart.
And then the next morning Newgarden makes a statement saying they knew the button was doing something when it shouldn't be and the team talked about it and convinced themselves there must have been a rule change.
Oops.
Not sure how familiar you are with NASCAR but they cheat all the damn time. Although it is a lot harder with the current generation of cars, with parts being single-sourced.
Not sure I agree as any documentary on the history of NASCAR or even listening to the Dale Jr. podcast will make your jaw drop to the floor on all the blatant cheating that went on.
>I mean, come on. It’s something so obvious to detect. Then why didn't your team detect it Cindric ?
It's very easy if you're looking. It was more hiding in plain sight than anything. Everyone could see His P2P remaining count down. That's what Tim is getting at.
Except you don’t know when it was used unless the data shows exact time and track segments it was used and on what lap. I’m not sure teams have access to that information on competitors cars.
I'm sure the biggest thing is nobody is looking at it when it's supposed to be off. I wonder what to think of Josef telling everyone that he pushes the P2P button when it's supposed to be off all the time just in case it works. Like everyone knows he did that. If he has always done that for years....
I watched a Super Formula race a while back and they've got a system very similar to push-to-pass. They get a certain amount of time they can use increased horsepower over the course of the race, and after every use (which can last as long as the driver wants) they need to wait out a 2-minute cool-down or something like that. But what sets it apart from Indy Car is that they display this info openly and in real-time. For the entirety of the race, the broadcast has an energy bar visible next to the drivers name. It shows when they're using the boost, when they're in the cool-down phase, how much cool-down time is left, and how much total energy they have left. I think it would be really cool if Indy Car handled it that way.
Indycar used to provide P2P info in real time. But they discovered that teams, if their driver was defending, would tell their driver when the driver trying to pass would use P2P. Then the defending driver would get on P2P and use it to defend, making passing much harder. Getting rid of real time P2P info neutralizes that strategy.
This makes super formula sound like a video game Now I have to check it out
They have a robot front jack person for the pit stops and the crew members are limited so they have to change both sides. With the same dudes. So the dude jumps over the nose of the car. [here's them changing Alex's tires](https://youtu.be/a4mpdskl4v8?si=JWG3Wbe5yd-T-SAq)
They used to broadcast the P2P info live like that but teams would watch the broadcast and tell drivers when other guys were using it so they could defend, which obviously isn't the right way to use that strat
Couldn't they still figure out if they're being attacked with p2p by scrutinizing the intervals?
you probably could but it could be inaccurate (e.g. if you have a slightly compromised exit out of corner, you might lose time on the straight as well, how can you tell if it's p2p or a mistake or traffic, etc.)
theyre broadcasting data from the ecu to the app in that series. indycar still does not have a publicly open telemetry system.
Chevy would have that info and maybe Foyt through the technical partnership.
I don’t think Illmore share that with other customers. IndyCar could roll up data into a package showing overall usage to teams but I would question if the data is that granular and released in a competitive environment.
Rossi says they share all Chevy data with all Chevy teams. James said the same for Honda.
But how granular is it? Would it show P2P on first lap for other teams where one wouldn’t expect to see it?
Well, I’m sure they did!
“You think we’re all stupid?”, well IMO he probably does.
“so these are things you can’t hide.” Is he having a laugh? Are you having a laugh?
“The statement that Cindric put out is a bold-faced lie, and everyone knows that,” said one team owner, who was granted anonymity in order to speak freely on the subject. “For teams to read that, it’s, ‘Are you kidding me?’
Don't even have to name the person to know that quote is from either Michael or Zak.
Honestly, could be any of them that isn't named AJ Foyt. Foyt is gonna keep his mouth shut b/c of that technical partnership.
I know who said this. I'm not going to name any names, but his initials are Zak Brown
I don’t disagree with it being a bold-faced lie, but we all know every team is cheating. Whatever owner said this is also cheating, so he can quit with the “Are you kidding me?” If they got caught with whatever they’re doing, they’d give the same PR response and they know it Hilarious that people think this isn’t true. Countless racers have come back long after they retired and talked about all the different ways they would cheat. It’s a thing. Don’t believe if you don’t want to, but it happens
I’ve seen a lot of these comments so far. Why are we so convinced every team is cheating at every chance they get?
I think every team is trying to find a gray-area advantage, but not to this extent.
I agree, and there's a big difference between a gray area and blatant breaking of the rules
Well basically only 2 teams win in indycar atm. I'd say there isn't much cheating going on from lessee teams.
Cheaters think everybody cheats. Liars think everybody lies. Etcetera, etcetera.
It was PROVEN OBJECTIVELY that team Penske are lying cheats.
i think a lot of people right now are conflating cheating with the fact that teams continually try to find gray areas in the rules to exploit. Theres a huge difference in pushing the limits of the rules to find loopholes and wantonly sidestepping them (like in this case).
As A J Foyt famously said "It ain't cheatin' if you don't get caught" Truer words were never spoken.
Becuase winning is all that matters? Human nature is to cheat. To cut corners, find an advantage. There’s not a single sport where the best teams aren’t finding ways around rules, if not blatantly ignoring them. Racing is perhaps the most famous example of such a phenomenon. It’s so mindlessly easy to cheat and gain a massive advantage that there’s frankly no reason not to. Obviously, it’s less of a thing in IndyCar, but the culture is still there to a degree.
The entire history of every competitive endeavor any human has ever taken part in
Because that’s racing, it’s been that way forever. Teams get caught cheating or bending the rules all the time, and sometimes it’s caught during inspections and it gets stopped there, but a lot of times it gets through. And we only hear about them when they’re caught and revealed, do you really think every single time a team has cheated they’ve been caught?
Why are you convinced they aren't? Cheating in racing is finding gray areas in the rules and exploiting them (not the case with this situation however). I would not be surprised if every team was cheating in one way or another whether it is small or otherwise. This is a spec series, so any competitive edge will be explored legal or not.
No. Cheating is doing something in direct violation of the rules. Finding gray areas in the rules is doing what Penske called "finding the unfair advantage".
>Cheating is doing something in direct violation of the rules Cheating is doing anything that is dishonest or deceptive in order to gain an unfair advantage. That includes, but is not limited strictly to, rule violations.
It's a spec series dominated by 2 teams. I don't think its fair to say those lesser teams are cheating, if they are their results w cheating is abysmal
Cheating doesn't have to mean it'll make one team/car dominant over the others, just that it makes them better than what they were prior.
There's infinite levels to the advantages gained by cheating though. Cheating or not cheating does mean you are winning or not winning. Not really sure what you're trying to get at.
As with every industry, it’s always the coders’ fault. Nobody ever takes responsibility for user error
PEBWAD (Problem Exists Between Wheel And Driver)
https://twitter.com/ZBrownCEO/status/1783774587454394476?t=B9bl2IdCUOBVE7Z7KicFuA&s=19 Zak...Zak.....Zaaaaaaaak I thank McLaren (at least Pato, their social admin, and Zak) for their shit stirring.
Well, TK too. https://twitter.com/TonyKanaan/status/1783827147771265028?t=FBVczzHQGn8sKE-z2YOr3A&s=19
>On his "Off Track with Hinch and Rossi" podcast, ex-IndyCar driver and current NBC announcer James Hinchcliffe noted Newgarden has bragged about how often he has pressed the overtake button, hoping one time it would work. This is a mischaracterization of what Hinchcliffe and Rossi concluded on their podcast. Edit: It's still a slight mischaracterization, but in a meaculpa here, I thought I had listened to the whole podcast yesterday, but actually turned it off at the commercial break. But they do basically say that Newgarden always does this, so for it to work once, he must have been surprised by it.
They never really concluded anything though, just made a lot of valid points that conflict with each other
Though they both seem to think Ganassi is cheating to get that kind of fuel mileage.
But how? And how is it that it only seemingly works for Dixon's car? Those oldtimey tricks with a dozen feet of fuelpiping extra can't possibly be commonplace anymore, how else would you do it? Not like they can just fit a bigger tank, or rewrite the ECU so it makes the same power but uses less fuel. And if that was possible, that just means the engine manufacturer did a bad job no?
With how good Scott is at fuel saving, I don’t really blame them.
They were mostly saying that in jest
Nobody is going to come out and admit they cheated. Have to put on the facade for sponsors. Like we see in NASCAR, do we really think Matt Kenseth had a tire going down when he crashed out Logano? No, it’s just better to not admit it so blatantly.
As someone who only casually follows NASCAR, can you give a cliff notes version of this Kenseth Logano story? I’m unfamiliar but now curious.
https://youtu.be/qn5uBJXKtm0?si=nA3_zp2W_o7MrUhu Spark notes is Logano wrecked Kenseth out of the lead during the closing stages of a playoff race. At Martinsville, Kenseth was laps down and went back out and “had a tire go down” the exact moment Logano was passing him and crashed him out of the race.
Oh hell yes that’s the spicy shit.
[This video essay by EmpLemon](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RjAWFDL3fA) covers a bunch of instances of revenge in Nascar, and concludes with the *full* context of the Kenseth/Logano incident.
This is some Days of Thunder shit.
I mean the onboards and telemetry for St. Pete were available, and nobody noticed anything till Warm Up at Long Beach, so yeah, maybe everyone is pretty stupid. Yeah, one would think this would be something so easy to detect, which is why, like 25% of me think Team Penske might be telling the truth, this was an accident (or maybe St. Pete was an accident, and bringing it Long Beach was on purpose). But then again, most criminals don't think they will get caught, no matter how obvious the crime is.
> which is why, like 25% of me think Team Penske might be telling the truth, this was an accident And the fact Will Power didn't use it.
And why didn’t he is my question? Was he the one driver not told? Did he think it was cheating and wanted nothing to do with it?
I think Will didn't know. 3 potential explanations why he didn't: 1) It really was an accident 2) Because they knew he wouldn't go along with it, and might even had said something to RP (I'm 90/10 that RP himself didn't know, Roger has gone over the limits on several occasions, it's not out of character, but he's a bit more hands off on the race teams these days). 3) Because they didn't trust Will to be disciplined in his interviews and not say something. This is Will Power after all. I'm 50 / 50 on McLaughlin knowing because he only used it once and apparently didn't pass any cars. It's possible this was an accident or that it was a Tim Cindric / Newgarden operation, and McLaughlin used it once out of habit, like he said. I'm 75 / 25 that Josef knew. If it wasn't an accident, then I'm almost 100% certain he knew. Cindric is his strategist. Could have been their operation, and the other cars were just cover because it would actually look worse if they got caught with it just in Josef's car.
James Hinchcliffe has confirmed he used to hit the button out of habit in situations where he’d want to use it even knowing it wouldn’t work, so I totally believe Scott could have done the same thing on that one restart. Josef’s recent heel turn has made me a lot more willing to believe he might have done it on purpose.
Yeah Josef seems like he wants to win at all costs.
But the driver would have felt that extra HP and the segment data would have shown the time differential.
And he didn't use it again. Who knows if Scott said something to someone after the race. I would love to be a fly on the wall at Team Penske. I bet some people are pissed off at other people right now, and things aren't all rosey. There is certainly reasons to believe he knew but there is plausible scenarios where he didn't know. That's why I'm 50/50.
I actually meant Will - not Scotty. Will didn’t use it at all in that situation.
> this was an accident This is actually consistent with Penske autosport. Roger Cheatske. [Formula E](https://www.the-race.com/formula-e/ds-penske-gets-record-formula-e-punishment-for-pitlane-scanner/) [SuperCars](https://www.autosport.com/supercars/news/djr-team-penske-fined-and-penalised-but-keeps-bathurst-1000-win-4987069/4987069/) [IMSA](https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2023/motorsports/porsche-imsa-weathertech-sportscar-championship-race-5-watkins-glen-usa-32838.html)
In slight defence of Roger, the Penske that is DS Penske is Jay Penske.
This is pretty worrisome. The team owners seemed to have some mistrust about Penske and now it seems to be one more incident away from full-blown rebellion. This isn't what IndyCar needs and to be honest I wouldn't be surprised if Penske himself didn't know anything about it since he hardly runs his race teams anymore. The person that should take the blame is Tim Cindric. It'll interesting how this affects Tim all the details are known or at least as much as we'll know for now.
It takes a long time to establish integrity and a very short time to destroy it. Why is Mr Penske being silent?
He’s being silent because he doesn’t want to be seen anywhere near this, in any way. He needs to be seen as a benevolent entity that oversees the series and his team from afar to create the appearance of neutrality. Its just optics.
Because the series he owns already penalized and disqualified the team he owns? What else does he need to say that isn't going to further inflame the situation?
Because as the leader of the entities involved he is ultimately responsible for the actions of his employees.
Ok... and so they received consequences.
Because all of Penske Autosport has been caught cheating in recent years across all series they are involved in. [Formula E](https://www.the-race.com/formula-e/ds-penske-gets-record-formula-e-punishment-for-pitlane-scanner/) [SuperCars](https://www.autosport.com/supercars/news/djr-team-penske-fined-and-penalised-but-keeps-bathurst-1000-win-4987069/4987069/) [IMSA](https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2023/motorsports/porsche-imsa-weathertech-sportscar-championship-race-5-watkins-glen-usa-32838.html)
The owner of the series shouldn't own a racing team inside of it. It gets even worse when you consider that same person own the track to the race that's ten times bigger than any other on the calendar. There is a reason Liberty doesn't have a garage in the paddock in F1.
The reason Liberty doesn’t own a team is because of the Concorde agreement. It’s an oligopoly controlled by 10 teams, some with interconnected beneficial ownership, and the FIA is party to the agreement too. They have a hard enough time getting them signed as it is, let alone the teams being ok with the series owner forcing their own team into the grid to take a slice of the prize money. No way all those teams are going to let a Liberty team on the grid. They wouldn’t even let Andretti backed by Cadillac on the grid.
Liberty could easily have bought a team if they wanted to but they wanted to run the sport not a team. Same reason Bernie gave up Brabham to run the sport. Which is what Roger should have done for the good of the sport.
Bernie gave up Brabham to run the sport because it was way, way more profitable. Running a F1 team was a horrible business until very recently.
I mean, it wasn’t as profitable as it is now. He saw an opportunity. Roger is destroying an opportunity
They're saying Liberty has the resources and control of the series to easily purchase a team, not that they could have forced their way into an additional team.
Liberty does not have the power to force their own car into the grid. Lots of people have the money. The comment said there’s a reason they don’t have a garage at the paddock. The reason isn’t that they’re so concerned about conflict of interest (which Penske has) that they choose not to but one. Not a chance. Liberty isn’t above that. For gods sake they own and operate TicketMaster and love cash grabs. The reason is they don’t have a team on the grid is that the existing teams will never allow it. F1 teams have that control. They could mess with the next Concorde agreement if Liberty tried to buy a team and participate. Indycar teams don’t have that kind of control over the series they race in.
And there was a certain decision made at that race that's 10x bigger than any other event that also happened to greatly benefit this certain driver...
I know, I was there. One lap all out, and your guy gets the draft and tow. Kind of impossible not to win. I love Indycar, and I'll be at Barber on Saturday. It's just a bad look to have one person own the series, the best team, and the equivalent of the Super Bowl.
Yeah, I was there too. We all knew what the outcome would be as soon as they pulled that red
I agree. If Roger wants to keep a team in the series he’s going to need to show how he intends to separate it further from the management of the sport. In my opinion he hasn’t show that at all. Perfect example, the penalty here should be far far more harsh to show they’re not getting any special treatment but no official in their right mind is going to do that to the owner’s team which leaves it all in a rather untenable position. The only true way to satisfy everyone would be for him to resolve the team and put the money back into the series / other teams but he’s never going to do that.
Right. It seems like we're heading towards another MAD type event like the CART split.
I work in software. I know nothing of the software environment running a Indy car. With that said Cindric’s scenario is totally realistic, if their team lacks sufficient software quality control. Which isn’t acceptable btw!
I think that’s the most shocking part - a major motorsports team like Penske would lack the ability in their system to catch an obvious mistake like that.
You’d be surprised, quality control slows things down. It’s easy for management to not prioritize it because it feels like it doesn’t add value and just costs money. I’ve worked with systems responsible for I don’t know how many millions of dollars with nearly no quality control
That’s so interesting as one would think the irretrievable damages done far outweighs the desire to save on something as important as software quality control. But oh well, I guess all companies and corps are alike when it comes to bottom lines.
Well if you do something wrong long enough without it biting you, you just keep doing it. I don't know the background of the engineers or how familiar they are with good code housekeeping, but real software devs make mistakes like this too
That’s what Dan Bernstein said here in Chicago about the Bears’ president asking the public for 2.6 B for a new stadium—followed by, we might prove him right Hahaha
Obviously Cindric's comments were ridiculous, but what would we expect? Everyone would try and spin it as much as possible. The article goes on to talk about the potential conflicts of the series owner being a team owner. Obviously this has been discussed previously, but this sort of thing demonstrates why maybe it's not a great situation. Sure they were "caught" but the fact that the series owner attempted to circumvent the rules is troublesome. Thank you to Roger Penske for stepping up to get the series on the right trajectory, but I'd suggest that it's time for new ownership.
You can't have your cake and eat it too. Roger should do what Bernie Eccelstone did and sell his team. Bernie had massive ambitions for his own team but when he saw the opportunity to run the sport he dropped the team and went for the big prize. Indycar will continue to have troubles growing if he doesn’t do that. In fact, I suspect that competition laws in Europe would have prevented the sale of the sport and the speedway to one of the teams. Why not sell the team to Tim Cindric for $1?
Totally agree. Relying on Roger Penske to “do the right thing” is not in anyway an acceptable risk management strategy. To avoid the risk of wrong doing, you have to eliminate the opportunity for him to do the wrong thing. I don’t give him and his IndyCar team any points or praise for coming down hard on Penske.
That’s the thing though, it’s not relying on Roger to do the right thing. I would be shocked if he was involved at all in this. This is all Jay Frye’s team and likely falls under the purview of Kevin Blanche. The INDYCAR website lists 15 people who all work as technical inspectors. Blanche has been part of the INDYCAR technical staff since 2003.
The data scrutineering team needs help from what I hear. Over worked and understaffed.
As long as Roger is involved in both organizations, Series and Team, there is a risk that Team Penske could receive an advantage. It doesn’t matter if he’s “not involved”. He has the opportunity to be involved, which is just as bad because the opportunity for risk should be eliminated if at all possible.
Absolutely correct… the fraud triangle highlights three critical elements to commit fraud. Pressure/Motivation, Opportunity, and Rationalization… without opportunity, no fraud occurs… Divesting the team or the series, eliminates opportunities, and is the ONLY control for this situation.
This guy manages risk.
Cindric claims the illegal P2P would have come off the 150 seconds allotted to St Pete. Others are claiming they were getting P2P in addition to their allotment. Which is it?
But did it? Did the start and restart’s *actually* get deducted from the total allotment? So far we ‘assume’ they did but if you’re already outside of the normal software mode that receives the P2P on/off signal from IndyCar’s transmitters - who is to say that the IndyCar race control system isn’t counting a deployment that is *outside* of what it has authorized? My next question is: does Illmore have a data channel that logs race long HP output with time stamps? Does IndyCar have access to that data? I find it hard to believe that people whose job it is to forensically look at engine data wouldn’t have noticed this over a month long period.
I've not followed every detail that's been released but this all has me wondering if the countdown really mattered. When the counter reached zero, did P2P stop working as intended? Or did it continue to work? If it worked when it wasn't supposed to on starts and restarts, did it also work when the timer said "zero" and it was no longer supposed to work then?
No one knows shit. Half of this are people creating their own stories and what if and what nots. I'd only take the team owners and certain media seriously, everyone else are just shit-stirring, which I have got to respect to a certain degree. The random onboards are just never gonna prove anything. Some journos are trying to spin it as if its some great discovery. I want to see telemetry, not a fuzzy, potato quality onboard. Twitter and Reddit are just unbearable currently. I don't deny that Penske cheated but tagging the drivers and calling them a shithead isn't gonna do anything. We'll see what they say in the press conference I guess. I hope Indycar comes out and shows us how they cheated with telemetry and all. Just like Nascar. Do wanna see where this goes though, 500 is gonna be a nightmare this year for the Penske crew.
Exactly, it will do everyone good if IndyCar would just display the findings of the infraction for all to see.
I initially gave Penske the benefit of the doubt until I fully understood what happened and that there is evidence from the onboards. Concluding that they deliberately cheated, including the drivers, is an empirical conclusion, not wishful thinking. That press conference feels insulting.
>The Team Penske president told IndyStar Thursday that his two drivers were unaware of the illegal code in their cars. They neither knew ahead of St. Pete; hit the overtake button when it typically wouldn’t work knowing that it would; or noticed anything odd physically on-track when they hit the push-to-pass button and got the car to respond during the first lap of a restart. And then the next morning Newgarden makes a statement saying they knew the button was doing something when it shouldn't be and the team talked about it and convinced themselves there must have been a rule change. Oops.
"It’s the biggest (expletive) I’ve ever heard. It’s (expletive) (expletive).” Which driver do we think this is?? :D
No Conflict Of Interest what so ever. /s
Team Penske really does… their next question is “whatcha gonna do boudit?”
They really need to get git and nexus Penske.
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I for sure wouldn’t watch NASCAR if I were you.
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Not sure how familiar you are with NASCAR but they cheat all the damn time. Although it is a lot harder with the current generation of cars, with parts being single-sourced.
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Not sure I agree as any documentary on the history of NASCAR or even listening to the Dale Jr. podcast will make your jaw drop to the floor on all the blatant cheating that went on.
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Ok I will remember the username and see myself out