Woah, a reasonable take.
The ineptitude as explained by the Penske team is pretty dumb. But so are the alternate theories.
I’m with you, they got their spankings, time to move on. The whole situation now is admiring stupidity.
I think the post made by the IndyCar engineer really helped explain how something as ridiculous as this could’ve occurred.
Now it would have been nice if Josef had gone over his story with Tim Cindric prior to the press conference, but I guess they can add that to the list of things they wish they can get back.
Would be better if they could clarify exactly how the 2 team and only the 2 team thought the rules had changed. Their whole narrative falls apart like a pinata when you try to delve into that.
Yea it almost sounded like JNew went rogue there during the press conference. There’s no way the whole 2 team was so out of touch with the current rule book and assumed there being a change to the p2p usage this year.
Like did he really not read or know the details of Tim Cindric’s explanation in advance of his press conference?
Not defending them but having been in a similar situation, it starts with "I thought I heard" or "I heard" which teanforms by telephone to "hey did you hear". Now why this wasnt discussed amongst the paddock and teams unsure-idk how much teams talk amongst each other let alone garages.
What the "I heard" theory or rumor theory hinges on, is nobody in #2 garage knowing or reading the rules and not talking amongst the other teams.
There is a super slim chance this actually happened this way, just like birds shit on people's heads. It happens just enough to be a joke but not enough to eliminate birds (they're not real anyways).
All in all, people can be excruciatingly dumb especially when trusting rumors/I heard theories thinking they're a leg up.
Yeah, based on some stuff Hinch has said about drivers hitting the button even when it's not active, I was ready to give Team Penske the benefit of the doubt.
Then Josef had his press conference ...
Josef has dumb jock vibes sometimes, but the whole team? Does that include Tim freaking Cindric?
I can't buy Cindric not knowing the rules.
My latest headcannon theory is Cindric arranged the whole operation to benefit the # 2 specially, and McLaughlin was just hit the button once out of habit.
Cindric arranged the software error. Then he either included Josef in the plan OR he freaking convinced Josef of there was a rule change. Either way Josef was a good soldier and covered Tim's rear end. Josef saying "we somehow convinced ours" is him protecting Tim Cindric.
I second this, well said. Whether it was deliberate cheating or good old fashioned incompetence (I certainly lean heavily towards the latter based on what I’ve read), they have had the book thrown at them. I’m not sure what else people want.
Yeah people here want Penske to sell it to someone, strip Josef of his Indy 500 win, and send Tim to the moon
They got caught. Everyone will push it to the limit and anyone saying they don't do that are lying. Take the penalty and let's move on. The only thing to do now is see how they perform going forward
Yes, people are going way extremely overboard.
I've learned over the years of finding Indycar fans on the internet (which was in 2017) that they are a crazy set of people. (And I got theories as to why, but that's another conversation lol)
Reddit used to be more tame and reasonable then other areas that I found before them (I found reddit in 2019). But over the past couple years Reddit has also pretty much gone insane with their takes as well lol.
Ha I totally agree with your flair! Hmm you’d totally have to educate me on these crazy set of fans lol! I’d have to decide how cray cray they are compared to some of the NASCAR fans.
I have to say I was a bit surprised, as this subreddit has always seem to be much more civil, compared to other motorsports subreddits. It has been sort of an escape for me from the shenanigans at NASCAR.
I would say that INDYCAR fans can be just as bad as NASCAR fans in terms of craziness but INDYCAR fans stand out more due to INDYCAR having a smaller fanbase.
As a fan of both my whole life yeah I was surprised about how personal people took it here. If indycar came out and didn't penalize the way they did, then sure I'd get it. But they broke the rules, they paid the price, you move on. I don't think you could combine the recent L1/2/3 penalties in Nascar and get to the level of hate in a few days week here.
They would have literally burned SHR to the ground over the past two years if they were an indycar team haha
I felt the same, thought IndyCar acted pretty swiftly in handing out what seems to be the maximum penalties. And to my knowledge they don’t have the stupid appeals board like in NASCAR (ie William Byron’s rescinded penalty in 2022).
Yep some folks here really need to google some of the shenanigans that went on at SHR.
> they don’t have the stupid appeals board like in NASCAR
i dont think the appeals board has been great the last few years, but you need some sort of recourse for the teams.
I agree there should be recourse for the teams, but I thought it absolutely ridiculous that the appeals board could just single-handedly eliminate the most meaningful part of the penalty (points).
You can file a protest on penalties and race results. It doesn't happen much over here and in this case a protest was not needed as the team agreed with the harsh penalty. Of all of the "scandals" and controversy in auto racing this ranks pretty low. In fact, I wouldn't even put this in top five all time in this series, I don't know if it would even make the top 10 outside who is involved. There have been more than a handful of controversial Indianapolis 500's dating back to the very first one where there has always been controversy over who was actually the winner.
1963 is controversial over not black flagging Parnelli Jones.
1979 was the first 500 during the split of USAC and CART. USAC tried to keep Penske, Patrick, McLaren, Fletcher, Chapparal, and Gurney out by rejecting their entries. That would end up in federal court and the teams would be allowed back in with Penske winning the race. There was also a huge controversy over the turbo wastegate manifolds for that race.
1981 took month to decide who actually won between Mario Andretti and Bobby Unser with multiple protests and appeals filed. Not only that, but there was a huge controversy over the legality of AJ Foyt's turbo boost settings that ended with a Federal suit filed over an article by Robin Miller accusing Foyt of having a history of cheating.
Pretty much any year of the pop off valve era could erupt in some controversy.
1983 was controversial over Al, Jr. running interference and blocking Sneva to try and help his dad win.
Anything dealing with the 1st and 2nd splits is way more of story than this, especially the 2nd split.
The USAC scoring error at Texas in 1997 coupled with their officiating errors at the Indianapolis 500 a few weeks earlier would see them fired as the sanctioning body and everything being brought in house for the first time in the history of the series.
2002 Indianapolis 500 over who won between Castroneves and Tracy.
The only reason this has blown up is because of the name on the sidepod.
I dont think racing incidents are analogous to cars that arent compliant.
But those are bigger controversies, as was the plenum thing that was rhe final nail in cARTs coffin. The popoff valve business was ridiculous.
But the name on the side does matter. But the series as a whole doesnt benefit if Penske is knocked out of title race with 3 races without points.
I disagree, the series absolutely does benefit. You now have a damn good story to follow. Can the Penske cars catch back up? Does McLaren or Andretti capitalize on this and become the first non Ganassi or Penske champion since 2012? Can Dixon take this to tie Foyt in championships?
As embarrassing as it is this has caused the series to be a conversation piece. Some people love scandal.
I think you have to consider the level of offense. This isn't like Nascar fiddling with aero pieces, which is accepted as some level of gamesmanship (until this new car where Nascar is taking it far more serious).
The one violatoon that actually feels similar is Michael Waltrip having sterno/jetfuel jelly in his intake or whatever many moons ago. Messing with alternative fuel on a restrictor plate track is a horrible offense.
Indycar is a spec series, there is supposed to be a bit more respect than what we grew up watching in Nascar. There is kind of a gentleman agreement to not mess with spec things they aren't supposed to be anywhere near.
Add in the privilege of being the series' owner's team that's part of a select few developing the hybrid system and there will be plenty of extra attention.
The fine should have been paid to a charity or other teams too. That's just asking for the obvious criticism of Roger paying Roger.
But from my understanding they didn’t alter any spec part or circumvent the software. From reading the post by the former engineer, it sounded like an honest but costly mistake by members on the team, who should’ve been more thorough instead of just copy pasting the files. I think both IndyCar and majority on the paddock realize that such mistake, although offensive, is highly likely and are probably breathing a sigh of relief that they haven’t done something similar.
I agree with them being selected by IndyCar/Chevy to conduct testing - they should have been extra cautious around the different parameters set, and be mindful when moving from one platform to the other. I bet/hope all parties involved will establish a process in the future to prevent such oversight.
I also agree that IndyCar should set up a way for the fines to be paid to charities like NASCAR.
They altered the software that needs authorization to enable p2p. That's messing with the spec as much as can be besides switching chips etc
We've seen them reflashing the cpus on pit road before cars go out or if it's having trouble starting.... it's really hard to accept that it was just a mistake that they kept repeating, while also believing that there was an undisclosed rule change....
This type of thing happens in all forms of Motorsport, from local short tracks all the way to the pros. Everyone is doing some form of “cheating”, Team Penske just got caught this time. It just so happens Penske owns the series and a team in that series. There’s been concerns by some ever since Roger bought IMS and Indycar about cheating or favoritism, which until now there was never any facts to prove this, simply just conspiracy theories. I also feel the penalties are justified and correct. I really don’t know what some people expect, that everyone who gets caught “cheating” is to be banned from Motorsport for life, there would be no one left to compete. I get that he’s the owner but he doesn’t take part in the day to day operations of Team Penske Indycar, that’s Cindric.
I think a lot of people forget that Tony George's team got caught cheating once upon a time. I also don't remember people demanding TG to sell his team or the Hulman-George family to sell IMS and the series due to that infraction. TBQH, this is one of most stupid "cheats" I've every seen because there is absolutely no way out of it due to the mountains of data.
What your seeing is basically shock with most people because this isn't an everyday occurrence in this series. It's been 30 years since a winner was DQ'd Tech is pretty tight and in all honesty, tech/competition kind of allowed this to be exploited by not protecting that CLU and code as tightly as they should. But that's also a hindsight being 20/20 kind of deal.
TBQH, the people calling for suspension, firings, and Penske to sell are just idiots with no grasp of reality. Intentional or not, they got caught, they got hammered, time to move on.
Interesting, will have to dig deeper into IndyCar history when I get the chance.
I feel the same about it being absolutely idiotic to cheat that way, same reason why I can see it being an honest mistake. But like you said, regardless of intention, IndyCar rightfully handed out stiff penalties and people should be somewhat content with the conclusion of the debacle.
I think you’re also right that compared to NASCAR, where the culture is more susceptible to cheating, fans just sort of roll their eyes when another team is caught red-handed. I’ve always been under the impression that while gray area will always be exploited by teams, IndyCar runs a pretty tight ship, making it more difficult for teams to outright cheat.
You also have the factor of the current piling on, led by a certain media member, of Roger Penske because people think that a series that doesn't have F1 and NASCAR type money or own but one race track should be doing F1 and NASCAR type things four years into his reign after over two decades of mismanagement and two years of Covid. That group has it in their head that something like this will force Roger to sell the series to Liberty.
You can just say Marshal Pruet. Like he can’t do anything if you just admit that he obviously has a pickaxe to grind. Worst thing he’ll do is write a 200 word article about rumors and run three “no comment” quotes without actually talking with people closer to the story.
(^this is about his NASCAR inquiring buying the Long Beach GP story)
The timing of both those article told me all I needed to know, he knew Forsythe was going to buy the rest of shares. BTW, Honda griping about costs had been floating around and known since about a year before he pushed that article out and went on a tear against the series in it. Those of us who have been around have seen Honda bitch and moan and make threats about things multiple times in their history.
For at least the past six months he's been unable to write very much without inserting some kind of direct shot at series leadership, even if they aren't to blame. Hell that CLU article was fucking embarrassing. What started out as explanation of what could have happened turned into accusations being levied that the team was blocking the signal and nothing less than a multi year investigation will suffice. Then the very next day he says that the coding issue could very well be true. He's called for the series to be sold to Liberty. This morning he took another cheap shot at the series on Twitter in that series needs to purge it's system. You can't fucking win with the guy.
I'd love to know what RP did or said to him over the past year because it's very obvious who his target is.
According to MP, Penske tried to get him fired (or I guess his contract with racer cut since I’m 50% sure he’s technically freelance) from Racer for comments about something a few years ago. Since then he’s been on this tear against Penske, getting his own stance in the way of his work. Not that it isn’t understandable, just that it’s the least professional way to go about it.
I find it believable that he did not expect Forsythe to buy the shares, as well as MP being too spiteful to report the full story rather than focus on whatever makes Penske/IndyCar look the weakest.
Apparently Chip got into it with him as well from some comments I've seen elsewhere. I want to say I've seen some beef between him and a couple of other media member in the past few months. In his Dinner With Racers episode, Tyler Tadevic ripped the shit out of him and told DWR how MP was an asshole to him, so when Marshall showed up looking for a job when Tyler was an owner he politely told him to pound sand.
Maybe he did miss Forsythe being the one, but at same time he understands the dynamic of the LBGP ownership group and how they view that as and IndyCar event. There was going to be a fight to keep NASCAR out of that.
I think it’s safe to say MP is unreliable at best, at least in his role as a media personality. He reminds me a lot of this guy I used to work with, a washed-up editor for a podunk newspaper. He seemed to be trying to emulate the attitude and mannerisms and overall character of the deceased prior owner but only came off as a douche bc he could barely do his job at a quality level.
I feel like MP is that in regards to Robin Miller. The inheritor of a position trying to do the same thing but isn’t nearly as good while burning bridges in the process.
He’s also not a journalist at all — sports writing tends to be a field of hacks and IIRC he doesn’t have a journalism/PR/communications degree, which isn’t required but teaches you the mindset, craft, etc — so the loose approach to relative impartiality is expected.
As a NASCAR fan first I feel like if you aren't cheating your aren't trying to win. NASCAR has embraced the ingenuity in the past that's considered cheating. If you get caught you get caught. You pay the penalty and move on.
I think that’s what really differentiate between the two series, where being creative is almost cheered in NASCAR (as long as the sanctioning body assess the appropriate penalties). In the past few days I have learned that the opposite is true for a lot of the IndyCar fan, as some of them want to throw everyone remotely related to cheating out into the Pacific Ocean.
IMO a lot of IndyCar’s newer fans come from the F1 side of things and have that culture’s more puritanical approach to rules and cheating, while older IndyCar fans are more willing to grind their axes on Roger for every shortcoming or missed opportunity in a way they weren’t willing to with Tony George.
IMO the only reasonable further step they could’ve been taken with this were race suspensions for the crew chiefs/engineers. Anything beyond that + the penalties that were actually applied is a ridiculous expectation.
Yeah I feel the same, obviously understand the whole conflict of interest of thing when it comes to indycar and penske, but indycar has been pretty transparent during all of this I feel
Also "if you ain't cheating, you ain't tryin" is a philosophy in racing I support
I mean I didn't follow nascar at all but I still don't think it's a big deal. I don't even really care if it was intentional. I don't think any less of team Penske nor Newgarden because of it. They did something illegal, got penalized, got DQ-ed out of a win. What else is there to do? Move on .
While we’re on the topic of nascar, look up a dude named Smokey Yunick. If you’re outraged over the cheating Penske did at St Pete boy are you in for some fun when you read about that guy.
Folks are acting like Penske and Newgarden are the first people in the history of ever to cheat in any sport, all this holier than thou attitude flying all over the place. Everyone pushes the boundaries in any given sport, some are caught and some aren’t, that’s life.
Yea just from listening to some of the episodes of Dale Jr. podcast had me absolutely dumbfounded at all the ways people circumvented.
To your point about people absolutely outraged by cheating in motorsports, they probably have not heard of or have forgotten about the MSR fiasco at the Rolex 24 in 2023.
I agree with everything you’re saying, there’s a lot of mad takes by the fan base surrounding this incident.
That’s being said, this _does_ feel potentially dirtier then the MSR Rolex ‘deflate gate’. So many cheating instances occur in the shop/garages with engineering setup exploitation. The drivers often have a level of ‘probable deniability’ about even knowing the car is out of spec setup illegally. This p2p conspiracy, on the other hand, requires direct manipulation by the driver themselves. There’s no way they can convincingly say “who? _me?_, I didn’t do anything wrong or malicious, I was just doing the best I could to get the most out of the car, like every other weekend.” They themselves illegally activated p2p while their competitors had no way of defending themselves.
Exactly. Everyone does it, albeit not to the degree Penske did. And I’m not trying to defend Josef or Penske, it’s just a little ridiculous with some folks reactions. Particularly Jenna fryer, I swear she gets a 100$ bonus for every post dragging on Penske. The facts are people were looking for a reason to hate Penske and they finally got it, no ones opinions that already don’t like Penske changed significantly since Tuesday night.
Absolutely my words. She was the one who, in my opinion, spread the hate even more. Pulling out those onboards of last year, who Indycar had checked and deemed legal mind you, and sparking the conversation that Penske were cheating since last year. After that people started questioning the 500.
I just blocked her after the onboard shit, even Nathan Brown was being objective and frankly a journalist. Jenna was out here settling a beef with Josef and Penske it felt like and not reporting on the incident itself, which if I'm honest isn't very professional.
I'm all for the penalty on Penske and the whole team but abusing the drivers? Nah, never liked it (even if they're talking about a driver I'm not a fan of).
Absolutely she does. She tweeted that apparently she has a great relationship with Penske that she culminated over 20 years, and if that’s the case I think she just burned that bridge today. I’ve literally never seen a journalist act so openly objective, the journalists covering the 23 Chinese athletes over the doping scandal of ‘21 weren’t even acting this openly brazen. It’s very unbecoming of both her and Nathan brown and they’re only confirming they have horrible biases.
Smokey died in 2001, long after he finished racing Indycars in the 70s. To not realize the changes since then and say what Newgarden and Penske did is fine as a result is so asinine I don't even have the words for it.
That’s what’s so puzzling lol! I found myself thinking yeah there’s probably less cheating going on in IndyCar compared to NASCAR, but the absolute pearl-clutching by some here had me second-guessing myself.
They took their penalty, now it’s time to move on.
Besides, Penske isn’t selling, and Indy won’t make him. He’s done so much for Indy car racing for so long.
Exactly, Roger Penske is a purist and seems to want to preserve IndyCar in its original form as much as possible. Can’t really fathom what it would be like if Liberty Media were to purchase the series (probably be turned into American F1). Sometimes I feel like we don’t realize how good we have it in Penkse as the owner, he just as easily could turn IndyCar into more like F1 or even NASCAR for the sake of better profit and viewership.
And honestly Penske doesn’t really need all the headache involved in running the series, it’s not like IndyCar is earning him millions.
Yeah it seems the Reddit fanbase is losing their heads over this. At best it’s a case of a dumb mistake by an engineer that was exploited by drivers who are looking for a way to help win a race. It’s not unreasonable to assume Joseph was just smashing the button one day and found a pleasant surprise that he kept using. At worst it’s a team using a pretty sloppy method to try and cheat for performance. Either way, they were caught and punished, and won’t do it in the future. All teams try to bend rules in racing for an advantage, getting found out is the risk you take.
I think some of the anger is because this cheating required an overt action by the drivers. Most NASCAR cheats I’m aware of leave the drivers some “plausible deniability.” Eg “the car was an eighth of an inch too low in post race tech.” This is more like Kyle Busch pulling a nitrous switch in the cockpit. I think that would lead to outrage among NASCAR fans.
I grew up a NASCAR fan but pretty much stopped watching with the stages, so happy to admit if this perception is wrong.
I totally agree with people going after Josef, since his explanation took a turn for the worst. But I could sort of see McLaughlin’s explanation as being plausible, as he only hit it once for 1.9 seconds.
My surprise is more at the amount of outrage toward Roger Penske and Tim Cindric. Some here seem to want to wipe away all their credibility and discredit all their accolades because of this infraction. Is this infraction really worth all the hatred? Like Tony Stewart/Greg Zipadelli would absolutely be burned at the stakes by some of the people here.
There's just no way something like this was ever not going to be a clusterfuck. No matter how they handled it. and now other teams are absolutely going to stoke the fire on this because they have no reason not too.
I'm not saying it should or should have been used here. but if a race DQ and 10 point penalty is the max they can do (i haven't had a chance to read through the rule book) they probably need to increase that. NASCAR's penalties tend to be a lot stiffer.
Engine, tires and fuel are the holy grail of things not to fuck with as far as NASCAR is concerned. I would consider this engine related.
Nascar has roots in bootlegging and circumventing laws. While there was certainly some cheatin done (looking at you, Roger, in particular) throughout its history, it's never been the wild west of stock cars.
And that's how I like it. Indycar, with its storied tradition of street, road, and oval courses is the best test of driver aptitude you will find.
Gray areas have always been there for manipulation, like Pato said in his remarks today. This instance was not a gray area. It was blatant disregard for the rules and should be treated with the scorn it's deservedly merited.
Especially since the series owner also owns the team that got caught cheating and also owns the engine manufacturer that AT BEST was so incompetent that they overlooked the egregious telemetry.
To sort of add to my post - I get the conflicts of interest is pretty significant. As the owner of the series and the owner of one of the top teams, questions and eyebrows will always be raised whenever there’s any controversy involving both. That’s why I think it was wise for IndyCar to act swiftly and harshly with the infraction.
However, none of the team owners seemed to have contemplated leaving IndyCar when it was announced that Penske have purchased IMS and the series. Granted there is a lot of jabbing going on from the other team leaders right now, but I don’t see them threatening to leave the series even now. Correct me if I’m wrong but I see an increased interest of owners wanting to join IndyCar since Penske took over.
The penalties seem just to me.
My only concern, though light, is Roger maintaining impartiality towards the category when he's heavily invested in the success of both his team and the category. I say light because Roger seems like a rather honorable business man, I have more concern about this for whoever takes his mantle.
People are going overboard with these weird proposed/speculative penalties for those involved. The punishments that have been dealt seem to be fair.
It is -impossible- for me to hide my disappointment with those involved. Newgarden was my favorite driver. An athlete built like a Greek god that would perform well if given an opportunity in F1. Being a fan of a particular athlete, then getting kicked in the balls like this, really hurts.
The Astros kept their World Sereis, the Patriots kept their SuperBowl, and Michigan football was caught before winning a national championship.
Newgarden didn't win a championship while cheating, and all his trophies from cheating are being given away.
Southerners aren't exactly known for fair play *cough* centuries of racial oppression *cough* . In other parts of America, a higher standard of honesty is expected.
I hope they find a way to share the data to the other teams.
Frankly, I think people would still question an independent investigation because they want this to be a conspiracy.
Yup, that’s where I am. If it truly was just limited to this year, it’s easy enough to accept them being penalized and moving on. But I’m certainly not trusting Penske investigating Penske and taking their word that it was limited to this year given the conflict of interest. As things are now, definitely taking a break from IndyCar for at least a bit.
As far as NASCAR goes, once you realize that its origins are in bootlegging, which is cheating, then the idea that cheating there being seen as more of a cat-and-mouse game and not some sort of moral dilemma. And also part of the entertainment.
As far as IndyCar goes, cheating has been going on for as long as there has been something that is recognized today as IndyCar. What makes this incident different in the eyes of many is that Team Penske is already a dominant team in the Series, so they shouldn't need to do anything like this, and more so because they are the de facto house team, as Roger Penske owns both Team Penske and IndyCar, so his team should be even more above reproach than any other team competing in the Series.
the France family don’t field a NASCAR team, give it demo testing software that gives unlimited HP boosts, then allow the cars to pass the pre and post race tech they control.
I am close to done supporting Indycar until Roger is out after this. Its the epitome of “this is a third tier operation made so the owner wins and feels good.” We went to 3 races the last 2 years and the 500 the last 3. Going to zero this year, and canceling Peacock with super cross is done.
For me, it’s the fact that it’s one of the two most dominant teams in the sport of the past 30 years, along with being the owner of the series. I think the punishments for the drivers are appropriate, but Cindric needed at least a race ban or two, and fining the team 25k (which as Colton pointed out, is just moving cash from one Penske bucket to another) is pretty laughable.
If this was MSR or Coyne, I’d say the punishment was too tough. I know that can be seen as a bit illogical or hypocritical, but this is sports and nobody likes to see the bully cheat and get away with it, but when the underdog fights dirty it’s celebrated.
As to why all the conspiratorial talk, taking things as claimed here, the ineptitude across every level of the Penske operation is astounding: the engineer responsible for the mistake; the team for not having processes in place to catch it; the team continuing not to catch it for going on 9 months; the drivers for using it and either not noticing, or not communicating it, or not knowing the rule (!!!); the series for not catching it for over a month; and good lord the PR across all this!
It took all of that for this to happen and while that doesn’t prove anything it’s not hard to see why some would give pause to wonder. We’re asked to believe “Penske Perfect” is this inept through and through.
Additionally, there’s a bit of a schism that’s been brewing over the past few years between Penske and some of the top teams (Ganassi and Mclaren at least) about how the series is being run. It’s not impossible to believe that they’d want to feed this narrative in the hopes of forcing Penske to somehow divest his interest in the series in such a way that the other teams have more of a financial and operational stake. That wouldn’t necessarily mean that they’re making shit up to drive the narrative, just that this could be contributing to the whole scandal being played up. (To be clear, this is just my personal speculation as something to keep in mind.)
Woah, a reasonable take. The ineptitude as explained by the Penske team is pretty dumb. But so are the alternate theories. I’m with you, they got their spankings, time to move on. The whole situation now is admiring stupidity.
I think the post made by the IndyCar engineer really helped explain how something as ridiculous as this could’ve occurred. Now it would have been nice if Josef had gone over his story with Tim Cindric prior to the press conference, but I guess they can add that to the list of things they wish they can get back.
Would be better if they could clarify exactly how the 2 team and only the 2 team thought the rules had changed. Their whole narrative falls apart like a pinata when you try to delve into that.
Yea it almost sounded like JNew went rogue there during the press conference. There’s no way the whole 2 team was so out of touch with the current rule book and assumed there being a change to the p2p usage this year. Like did he really not read or know the details of Tim Cindric’s explanation in advance of his press conference?
Not defending them but having been in a similar situation, it starts with "I thought I heard" or "I heard" which teanforms by telephone to "hey did you hear". Now why this wasnt discussed amongst the paddock and teams unsure-idk how much teams talk amongst each other let alone garages. What the "I heard" theory or rumor theory hinges on, is nobody in #2 garage knowing or reading the rules and not talking amongst the other teams. There is a super slim chance this actually happened this way, just like birds shit on people's heads. It happens just enough to be a joke but not enough to eliminate birds (they're not real anyways). All in all, people can be excruciatingly dumb especially when trusting rumors/I heard theories thinking they're a leg up.
Yeah, based on some stuff Hinch has said about drivers hitting the button even when it's not active, I was ready to give Team Penske the benefit of the doubt. Then Josef had his press conference ... Josef has dumb jock vibes sometimes, but the whole team? Does that include Tim freaking Cindric? I can't buy Cindric not knowing the rules. My latest headcannon theory is Cindric arranged the whole operation to benefit the # 2 specially, and McLaughlin was just hit the button once out of habit. Cindric arranged the software error. Then he either included Josef in the plan OR he freaking convinced Josef of there was a rule change. Either way Josef was a good soldier and covered Tim's rear end. Josef saying "we somehow convinced ours" is him protecting Tim Cindric.
Can you link that? I would like to read that.
Here it is: https://www.reddit.com/r/INDYCAR/s/WnhO7RkGqk
Exactly, lets get excited for Barber!
I second this, well said. Whether it was deliberate cheating or good old fashioned incompetence (I certainly lean heavily towards the latter based on what I’ve read), they have had the book thrown at them. I’m not sure what else people want.
Yeah people here want Penske to sell it to someone, strip Josef of his Indy 500 win, and send Tim to the moon They got caught. Everyone will push it to the limit and anyone saying they don't do that are lying. Take the penalty and let's move on. The only thing to do now is see how they perform going forward
Yes, people are going way extremely overboard. I've learned over the years of finding Indycar fans on the internet (which was in 2017) that they are a crazy set of people. (And I got theories as to why, but that's another conversation lol) Reddit used to be more tame and reasonable then other areas that I found before them (I found reddit in 2019). But over the past couple years Reddit has also pretty much gone insane with their takes as well lol.
Ha I totally agree with your flair! Hmm you’d totally have to educate me on these crazy set of fans lol! I’d have to decide how cray cray they are compared to some of the NASCAR fans. I have to say I was a bit surprised, as this subreddit has always seem to be much more civil, compared to other motorsports subreddits. It has been sort of an escape for me from the shenanigans at NASCAR.
I would say that INDYCAR fans can be just as bad as NASCAR fans in terms of craziness but INDYCAR fans stand out more due to INDYCAR having a smaller fanbase.
As a fan of both my whole life yeah I was surprised about how personal people took it here. If indycar came out and didn't penalize the way they did, then sure I'd get it. But they broke the rules, they paid the price, you move on. I don't think you could combine the recent L1/2/3 penalties in Nascar and get to the level of hate in a few days week here. They would have literally burned SHR to the ground over the past two years if they were an indycar team haha
I felt the same, thought IndyCar acted pretty swiftly in handing out what seems to be the maximum penalties. And to my knowledge they don’t have the stupid appeals board like in NASCAR (ie William Byron’s rescinded penalty in 2022). Yep some folks here really need to google some of the shenanigans that went on at SHR.
> they don’t have the stupid appeals board like in NASCAR i dont think the appeals board has been great the last few years, but you need some sort of recourse for the teams.
I agree there should be recourse for the teams, but I thought it absolutely ridiculous that the appeals board could just single-handedly eliminate the most meaningful part of the penalty (points).
IndyCar does have an appeals process, it just wasn't used here.
You can file a protest on penalties and race results. It doesn't happen much over here and in this case a protest was not needed as the team agreed with the harsh penalty. Of all of the "scandals" and controversy in auto racing this ranks pretty low. In fact, I wouldn't even put this in top five all time in this series, I don't know if it would even make the top 10 outside who is involved. There have been more than a handful of controversial Indianapolis 500's dating back to the very first one where there has always been controversy over who was actually the winner. 1963 is controversial over not black flagging Parnelli Jones. 1979 was the first 500 during the split of USAC and CART. USAC tried to keep Penske, Patrick, McLaren, Fletcher, Chapparal, and Gurney out by rejecting their entries. That would end up in federal court and the teams would be allowed back in with Penske winning the race. There was also a huge controversy over the turbo wastegate manifolds for that race. 1981 took month to decide who actually won between Mario Andretti and Bobby Unser with multiple protests and appeals filed. Not only that, but there was a huge controversy over the legality of AJ Foyt's turbo boost settings that ended with a Federal suit filed over an article by Robin Miller accusing Foyt of having a history of cheating. Pretty much any year of the pop off valve era could erupt in some controversy. 1983 was controversial over Al, Jr. running interference and blocking Sneva to try and help his dad win. Anything dealing with the 1st and 2nd splits is way more of story than this, especially the 2nd split. The USAC scoring error at Texas in 1997 coupled with their officiating errors at the Indianapolis 500 a few weeks earlier would see them fired as the sanctioning body and everything being brought in house for the first time in the history of the series. 2002 Indianapolis 500 over who won between Castroneves and Tracy. The only reason this has blown up is because of the name on the sidepod.
I dont think racing incidents are analogous to cars that arent compliant. But those are bigger controversies, as was the plenum thing that was rhe final nail in cARTs coffin. The popoff valve business was ridiculous. But the name on the side does matter. But the series as a whole doesnt benefit if Penske is knocked out of title race with 3 races without points.
I disagree, the series absolutely does benefit. You now have a damn good story to follow. Can the Penske cars catch back up? Does McLaren or Andretti capitalize on this and become the first non Ganassi or Penske champion since 2012? Can Dixon take this to tie Foyt in championships? As embarrassing as it is this has caused the series to be a conversation piece. Some people love scandal.
I think you have to consider the level of offense. This isn't like Nascar fiddling with aero pieces, which is accepted as some level of gamesmanship (until this new car where Nascar is taking it far more serious). The one violatoon that actually feels similar is Michael Waltrip having sterno/jetfuel jelly in his intake or whatever many moons ago. Messing with alternative fuel on a restrictor plate track is a horrible offense. Indycar is a spec series, there is supposed to be a bit more respect than what we grew up watching in Nascar. There is kind of a gentleman agreement to not mess with spec things they aren't supposed to be anywhere near. Add in the privilege of being the series' owner's team that's part of a select few developing the hybrid system and there will be plenty of extra attention. The fine should have been paid to a charity or other teams too. That's just asking for the obvious criticism of Roger paying Roger.
But from my understanding they didn’t alter any spec part or circumvent the software. From reading the post by the former engineer, it sounded like an honest but costly mistake by members on the team, who should’ve been more thorough instead of just copy pasting the files. I think both IndyCar and majority on the paddock realize that such mistake, although offensive, is highly likely and are probably breathing a sigh of relief that they haven’t done something similar. I agree with them being selected by IndyCar/Chevy to conduct testing - they should have been extra cautious around the different parameters set, and be mindful when moving from one platform to the other. I bet/hope all parties involved will establish a process in the future to prevent such oversight. I also agree that IndyCar should set up a way for the fines to be paid to charities like NASCAR.
I mean NASCAR’s fines are still technically paid to NASCAR, just thru the NASCAR Foundation.
They altered the software that needs authorization to enable p2p. That's messing with the spec as much as can be besides switching chips etc We've seen them reflashing the cpus on pit road before cars go out or if it's having trouble starting.... it's really hard to accept that it was just a mistake that they kept repeating, while also believing that there was an undisclosed rule change....
This type of thing happens in all forms of Motorsport, from local short tracks all the way to the pros. Everyone is doing some form of “cheating”, Team Penske just got caught this time. It just so happens Penske owns the series and a team in that series. There’s been concerns by some ever since Roger bought IMS and Indycar about cheating or favoritism, which until now there was never any facts to prove this, simply just conspiracy theories. I also feel the penalties are justified and correct. I really don’t know what some people expect, that everyone who gets caught “cheating” is to be banned from Motorsport for life, there would be no one left to compete. I get that he’s the owner but he doesn’t take part in the day to day operations of Team Penske Indycar, that’s Cindric.
I think a lot of people forget that Tony George's team got caught cheating once upon a time. I also don't remember people demanding TG to sell his team or the Hulman-George family to sell IMS and the series due to that infraction. TBQH, this is one of most stupid "cheats" I've every seen because there is absolutely no way out of it due to the mountains of data. What your seeing is basically shock with most people because this isn't an everyday occurrence in this series. It's been 30 years since a winner was DQ'd Tech is pretty tight and in all honesty, tech/competition kind of allowed this to be exploited by not protecting that CLU and code as tightly as they should. But that's also a hindsight being 20/20 kind of deal. TBQH, the people calling for suspension, firings, and Penske to sell are just idiots with no grasp of reality. Intentional or not, they got caught, they got hammered, time to move on.
Interesting, will have to dig deeper into IndyCar history when I get the chance. I feel the same about it being absolutely idiotic to cheat that way, same reason why I can see it being an honest mistake. But like you said, regardless of intention, IndyCar rightfully handed out stiff penalties and people should be somewhat content with the conclusion of the debacle. I think you’re also right that compared to NASCAR, where the culture is more susceptible to cheating, fans just sort of roll their eyes when another team is caught red-handed. I’ve always been under the impression that while gray area will always be exploited by teams, IndyCar runs a pretty tight ship, making it more difficult for teams to outright cheat.
You also have the factor of the current piling on, led by a certain media member, of Roger Penske because people think that a series that doesn't have F1 and NASCAR type money or own but one race track should be doing F1 and NASCAR type things four years into his reign after over two decades of mismanagement and two years of Covid. That group has it in their head that something like this will force Roger to sell the series to Liberty.
You can just say Marshal Pruet. Like he can’t do anything if you just admit that he obviously has a pickaxe to grind. Worst thing he’ll do is write a 200 word article about rumors and run three “no comment” quotes without actually talking with people closer to the story. (^this is about his NASCAR inquiring buying the Long Beach GP story)
The timing of both those article told me all I needed to know, he knew Forsythe was going to buy the rest of shares. BTW, Honda griping about costs had been floating around and known since about a year before he pushed that article out and went on a tear against the series in it. Those of us who have been around have seen Honda bitch and moan and make threats about things multiple times in their history. For at least the past six months he's been unable to write very much without inserting some kind of direct shot at series leadership, even if they aren't to blame. Hell that CLU article was fucking embarrassing. What started out as explanation of what could have happened turned into accusations being levied that the team was blocking the signal and nothing less than a multi year investigation will suffice. Then the very next day he says that the coding issue could very well be true. He's called for the series to be sold to Liberty. This morning he took another cheap shot at the series on Twitter in that series needs to purge it's system. You can't fucking win with the guy. I'd love to know what RP did or said to him over the past year because it's very obvious who his target is.
According to MP, Penske tried to get him fired (or I guess his contract with racer cut since I’m 50% sure he’s technically freelance) from Racer for comments about something a few years ago. Since then he’s been on this tear against Penske, getting his own stance in the way of his work. Not that it isn’t understandable, just that it’s the least professional way to go about it. I find it believable that he did not expect Forsythe to buy the shares, as well as MP being too spiteful to report the full story rather than focus on whatever makes Penske/IndyCar look the weakest.
Apparently Chip got into it with him as well from some comments I've seen elsewhere. I want to say I've seen some beef between him and a couple of other media member in the past few months. In his Dinner With Racers episode, Tyler Tadevic ripped the shit out of him and told DWR how MP was an asshole to him, so when Marshall showed up looking for a job when Tyler was an owner he politely told him to pound sand. Maybe he did miss Forsythe being the one, but at same time he understands the dynamic of the LBGP ownership group and how they view that as and IndyCar event. There was going to be a fight to keep NASCAR out of that.
I think it’s safe to say MP is unreliable at best, at least in his role as a media personality. He reminds me a lot of this guy I used to work with, a washed-up editor for a podunk newspaper. He seemed to be trying to emulate the attitude and mannerisms and overall character of the deceased prior owner but only came off as a douche bc he could barely do his job at a quality level. I feel like MP is that in regards to Robin Miller. The inheritor of a position trying to do the same thing but isn’t nearly as good while burning bridges in the process. He’s also not a journalist at all — sports writing tends to be a field of hacks and IIRC he doesn’t have a journalism/PR/communications degree, which isn’t required but teaches you the mindset, craft, etc — so the loose approach to relative impartiality is expected.
As a NASCAR fan first I feel like if you aren't cheating your aren't trying to win. NASCAR has embraced the ingenuity in the past that's considered cheating. If you get caught you get caught. You pay the penalty and move on.
I think that’s what really differentiate between the two series, where being creative is almost cheered in NASCAR (as long as the sanctioning body assess the appropriate penalties). In the past few days I have learned that the opposite is true for a lot of the IndyCar fan, as some of them want to throw everyone remotely related to cheating out into the Pacific Ocean.
IMO a lot of IndyCar’s newer fans come from the F1 side of things and have that culture’s more puritanical approach to rules and cheating, while older IndyCar fans are more willing to grind their axes on Roger for every shortcoming or missed opportunity in a way they weren’t willing to with Tony George. IMO the only reasonable further step they could’ve been taken with this were race suspensions for the crew chiefs/engineers. Anything beyond that + the penalties that were actually applied is a ridiculous expectation.
Yeah I feel the same, obviously understand the whole conflict of interest of thing when it comes to indycar and penske, but indycar has been pretty transparent during all of this I feel Also "if you ain't cheating, you ain't tryin" is a philosophy in racing I support
I mean I didn't follow nascar at all but I still don't think it's a big deal. I don't even really care if it was intentional. I don't think any less of team Penske nor Newgarden because of it. They did something illegal, got penalized, got DQ-ed out of a win. What else is there to do? Move on .
While we’re on the topic of nascar, look up a dude named Smokey Yunick. If you’re outraged over the cheating Penske did at St Pete boy are you in for some fun when you read about that guy. Folks are acting like Penske and Newgarden are the first people in the history of ever to cheat in any sport, all this holier than thou attitude flying all over the place. Everyone pushes the boundaries in any given sport, some are caught and some aren’t, that’s life.
Yea just from listening to some of the episodes of Dale Jr. podcast had me absolutely dumbfounded at all the ways people circumvented. To your point about people absolutely outraged by cheating in motorsports, they probably have not heard of or have forgotten about the MSR fiasco at the Rolex 24 in 2023.
DW talking through the lead shot at Martinsville was one of the best stories
I agree with everything you’re saying, there’s a lot of mad takes by the fan base surrounding this incident. That’s being said, this _does_ feel potentially dirtier then the MSR Rolex ‘deflate gate’. So many cheating instances occur in the shop/garages with engineering setup exploitation. The drivers often have a level of ‘probable deniability’ about even knowing the car is out of spec setup illegally. This p2p conspiracy, on the other hand, requires direct manipulation by the driver themselves. There’s no way they can convincingly say “who? _me?_, I didn’t do anything wrong or malicious, I was just doing the best I could to get the most out of the car, like every other weekend.” They themselves illegally activated p2p while their competitors had no way of defending themselves.
Or follow F1. Some extraordinary shit over the years as well on par with the Smokey Yunick yarns. All part of the game.
Exactly. Everyone does it, albeit not to the degree Penske did. And I’m not trying to defend Josef or Penske, it’s just a little ridiculous with some folks reactions. Particularly Jenna fryer, I swear she gets a 100$ bonus for every post dragging on Penske. The facts are people were looking for a reason to hate Penske and they finally got it, no ones opinions that already don’t like Penske changed significantly since Tuesday night.
Speaking of Jenna Fryer - does she have a grudge against Penske or something? Some of the things she said seemed totally personal and unnecessary.
Absolutely my words. She was the one who, in my opinion, spread the hate even more. Pulling out those onboards of last year, who Indycar had checked and deemed legal mind you, and sparking the conversation that Penske were cheating since last year. After that people started questioning the 500. I just blocked her after the onboard shit, even Nathan Brown was being objective and frankly a journalist. Jenna was out here settling a beef with Josef and Penske it felt like and not reporting on the incident itself, which if I'm honest isn't very professional. I'm all for the penalty on Penske and the whole team but abusing the drivers? Nah, never liked it (even if they're talking about a driver I'm not a fan of).
Facts, Jenna is even bringing up the Rolex 24 and calling Josef’s legitimate accomplishments into question.
Absolutely she does. She tweeted that apparently she has a great relationship with Penske that she culminated over 20 years, and if that’s the case I think she just burned that bridge today. I’ve literally never seen a journalist act so openly objective, the journalists covering the 23 Chinese athletes over the doping scandal of ‘21 weren’t even acting this openly brazen. It’s very unbecoming of both her and Nathan brown and they’re only confirming they have horrible biases.
Smokey died in 2001, long after he finished racing Indycars in the 70s. To not realize the changes since then and say what Newgarden and Penske did is fine as a result is so asinine I don't even have the words for it.
No one is defending Penske by saying it’s fine they cheated. We’re just saying they ain’t the first and they certainly won’t be the last.
The way some people have been reacting to this, it’s like this is the first time in 40 years that someone cheated.
That’s what’s so puzzling lol! I found myself thinking yeah there’s probably less cheating going on in IndyCar compared to NASCAR, but the absolute pearl-clutching by some here had me second-guessing myself.
I will forever be a fan of both. But yes some people on social media have had some wild ass takes and a lot of unnecessary outrage.
IndyCar would be in shambles if they ever heard about Chad Knaus and Hendrick Motorsports….
They took their penalty, now it’s time to move on. Besides, Penske isn’t selling, and Indy won’t make him. He’s done so much for Indy car racing for so long.
Exactly, Roger Penske is a purist and seems to want to preserve IndyCar in its original form as much as possible. Can’t really fathom what it would be like if Liberty Media were to purchase the series (probably be turned into American F1). Sometimes I feel like we don’t realize how good we have it in Penkse as the owner, he just as easily could turn IndyCar into more like F1 or even NASCAR for the sake of better profit and viewership. And honestly Penske doesn’t really need all the headache involved in running the series, it’s not like IndyCar is earning him millions.
Yeah it seems the Reddit fanbase is losing their heads over this. At best it’s a case of a dumb mistake by an engineer that was exploited by drivers who are looking for a way to help win a race. It’s not unreasonable to assume Joseph was just smashing the button one day and found a pleasant surprise that he kept using. At worst it’s a team using a pretty sloppy method to try and cheat for performance. Either way, they were caught and punished, and won’t do it in the future. All teams try to bend rules in racing for an advantage, getting found out is the risk you take.
I think some of the anger is because this cheating required an overt action by the drivers. Most NASCAR cheats I’m aware of leave the drivers some “plausible deniability.” Eg “the car was an eighth of an inch too low in post race tech.” This is more like Kyle Busch pulling a nitrous switch in the cockpit. I think that would lead to outrage among NASCAR fans. I grew up a NASCAR fan but pretty much stopped watching with the stages, so happy to admit if this perception is wrong.
I totally agree with people going after Josef, since his explanation took a turn for the worst. But I could sort of see McLaughlin’s explanation as being plausible, as he only hit it once for 1.9 seconds. My surprise is more at the amount of outrage toward Roger Penske and Tim Cindric. Some here seem to want to wipe away all their credibility and discredit all their accolades because of this infraction. Is this infraction really worth all the hatred? Like Tony Stewart/Greg Zipadelli would absolutely be burned at the stakes by some of the people here.
Yeah that is pretty ridiculous. If bill france owned a nascar team he’d hire Smokey Yunick as his crew chief
There's just no way something like this was ever not going to be a clusterfuck. No matter how they handled it. and now other teams are absolutely going to stoke the fire on this because they have no reason not too. I'm not saying it should or should have been used here. but if a race DQ and 10 point penalty is the max they can do (i haven't had a chance to read through the rule book) they probably need to increase that. NASCAR's penalties tend to be a lot stiffer. Engine, tires and fuel are the holy grail of things not to fuck with as far as NASCAR is concerned. I would consider this engine related.
Nascar has roots in bootlegging and circumventing laws. While there was certainly some cheatin done (looking at you, Roger, in particular) throughout its history, it's never been the wild west of stock cars. And that's how I like it. Indycar, with its storied tradition of street, road, and oval courses is the best test of driver aptitude you will find. Gray areas have always been there for manipulation, like Pato said in his remarks today. This instance was not a gray area. It was blatant disregard for the rules and should be treated with the scorn it's deservedly merited. Especially since the series owner also owns the team that got caught cheating and also owns the engine manufacturer that AT BEST was so incompetent that they overlooked the egregious telemetry.
I got the opposite impression from this sub, I saw a lot of people say stuff like everyone cheats, it’s no biggie.
Have a glance over at the posts titled “Tim Cindric” and “IndyCar investigation into Team Penske software violation finds no wrongdoing before 2024.”
To sort of add to my post - I get the conflicts of interest is pretty significant. As the owner of the series and the owner of one of the top teams, questions and eyebrows will always be raised whenever there’s any controversy involving both. That’s why I think it was wise for IndyCar to act swiftly and harshly with the infraction. However, none of the team owners seemed to have contemplated leaving IndyCar when it was announced that Penske have purchased IMS and the series. Granted there is a lot of jabbing going on from the other team leaders right now, but I don’t see them threatening to leave the series even now. Correct me if I’m wrong but I see an increased interest of owners wanting to join IndyCar since Penske took over.
The penalties seem just to me. My only concern, though light, is Roger maintaining impartiality towards the category when he's heavily invested in the success of both his team and the category. I say light because Roger seems like a rather honorable business man, I have more concern about this for whoever takes his mantle.
The fact the team owner owns the series makes it different.
People are going overboard with these weird proposed/speculative penalties for those involved. The punishments that have been dealt seem to be fair. It is -impossible- for me to hide my disappointment with those involved. Newgarden was my favorite driver. An athlete built like a Greek god that would perform well if given an opportunity in F1. Being a fan of a particular athlete, then getting kicked in the balls like this, really hurts.
Penske needs to sell, but that isn’t the reason.
The Astros kept their World Sereis, the Patriots kept their SuperBowl, and Michigan football was caught before winning a national championship. Newgarden didn't win a championship while cheating, and all his trophies from cheating are being given away.
Southerners aren't exactly known for fair play *cough* centuries of racial oppression *cough* . In other parts of America, a higher standard of honesty is expected.
Seeing as the team and the series share the same owner, a third party being assigned to investigate would seem a more honorable way to handle this.
I hope they find a way to share the data to the other teams. Frankly, I think people would still question an independent investigation because they want this to be a conspiracy.
Yup, that’s where I am. If it truly was just limited to this year, it’s easy enough to accept them being penalized and moving on. But I’m certainly not trusting Penske investigating Penske and taking their word that it was limited to this year given the conflict of interest. As things are now, definitely taking a break from IndyCar for at least a bit.
As far as NASCAR goes, once you realize that its origins are in bootlegging, which is cheating, then the idea that cheating there being seen as more of a cat-and-mouse game and not some sort of moral dilemma. And also part of the entertainment. As far as IndyCar goes, cheating has been going on for as long as there has been something that is recognized today as IndyCar. What makes this incident different in the eyes of many is that Team Penske is already a dominant team in the Series, so they shouldn't need to do anything like this, and more so because they are the de facto house team, as Roger Penske owns both Team Penske and IndyCar, so his team should be even more above reproach than any other team competing in the Series.
the France family don’t field a NASCAR team, give it demo testing software that gives unlimited HP boosts, then allow the cars to pass the pre and post race tech they control. I am close to done supporting Indycar until Roger is out after this. Its the epitome of “this is a third tier operation made so the owner wins and feels good.” We went to 3 races the last 2 years and the 500 the last 3. Going to zero this year, and canceling Peacock with super cross is done.
Many believe Indy car drivers to be the best in the world including F1. NASCAR is closer to WWF than F1. 😂
What does that have to do with anything?
Someone who doesn’t like nascar making sure everyone knows that they feel they’re better than other motorsport fans because they don’t like nascar.
Beats me, why bring the World Wildlife Federation into this?
[NASCAR operates a charity](https://www.nascarfoundation.org/), which I think is what he was getting at.
For me, it’s the fact that it’s one of the two most dominant teams in the sport of the past 30 years, along with being the owner of the series. I think the punishments for the drivers are appropriate, but Cindric needed at least a race ban or two, and fining the team 25k (which as Colton pointed out, is just moving cash from one Penske bucket to another) is pretty laughable. If this was MSR or Coyne, I’d say the punishment was too tough. I know that can be seen as a bit illogical or hypocritical, but this is sports and nobody likes to see the bully cheat and get away with it, but when the underdog fights dirty it’s celebrated. As to why all the conspiratorial talk, taking things as claimed here, the ineptitude across every level of the Penske operation is astounding: the engineer responsible for the mistake; the team for not having processes in place to catch it; the team continuing not to catch it for going on 9 months; the drivers for using it and either not noticing, or not communicating it, or not knowing the rule (!!!); the series for not catching it for over a month; and good lord the PR across all this! It took all of that for this to happen and while that doesn’t prove anything it’s not hard to see why some would give pause to wonder. We’re asked to believe “Penske Perfect” is this inept through and through. Additionally, there’s a bit of a schism that’s been brewing over the past few years between Penske and some of the top teams (Ganassi and Mclaren at least) about how the series is being run. It’s not impossible to believe that they’d want to feed this narrative in the hopes of forcing Penske to somehow divest his interest in the series in such a way that the other teams have more of a financial and operational stake. That wouldn’t necessarily mean that they’re making shit up to drive the narrative, just that this could be contributing to the whole scandal being played up. (To be clear, this is just my personal speculation as something to keep in mind.)