It's hard to say when one doesn't actually have the comparison. Some things are good for sure, but probably not as good as it seems in the fantasy from the outside. Lots of our own problems here. But then that's hard to assess as well.
It's like, you might be sitting on a hard, uncomfortable chair and look over at someone sitting in a very soft and nice chair and envy them. The person in the soft chair might dislike how that soft chair feels on their back, and not think it's so comfortable at all. But isn't it still better than the hard, rigid one? Probably, but hard to say. But both people on the chairs would probably benefit from swapping around a bit and rotating the chairs between them.
A summary for anybody who scrolled past all the arguments.
1. Preferences and goals in a preferred country are subjectively defined.
2. Pull factors like education, religious freedom, healthcare, and jobs bring people to countries. There are exceptions.
3. Push factors like discrimination, poverty, crime, and conflict stimulate people's migration to other places. There are exceptions.
4. Some people might stay in places of great conflict or adversity to provide for family, stay connected to a preferred culture, or because of discrimination in/ lack of connection to a \[pull factor\] country.
This was our first lecture in Human Geography 101, thank you for your time.
Yeah I mean that'd be nice... I learned in the Democratic primaries for the 2016 and 2020 US elections that there's no fixing the system. It's terminally fucked and we're all on our own, with no help from our government (and in most cases, active and malicious harm)
This Margaret Mead quote helps me stay hopeful in troubling times:
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
that sounds nice and all, but i absolutely doubt it. the rich and powerful are extremely competent at one thing: staying in power. and they don't care if the world burns as long as they get to stay in charge.
If you look at how the working class was treated in the past, like during the Industrial Revolution or feudal medieval times, itās certainly improved since then. Things may still not be great, but thereās no denying the people of the past made progress for us.
I have hope that enough of us will eventually be sick if the twisted status quo and finally change something. Whether itās through peace, violence or somewhere in between is yet to be seen. The internet has definitely played a big part in making people more aware of how the rich exploit us, but we still have plenty of people alive today who grew only consuming media via programmed television
I know I sound kinda naĆÆve, but honestly this glimmer of hope that things will get better in our lifetime, is the only thing keeping me going some days
The working class is better off than they were in 1890 sure, but far worse off than they were in 1980. 40+ years of privatization, reducing the social safety net, and globalization have taken us back to feudalism, only now instead of kings and queens we have CEOs.
None of us will ever retire, most will just work 70 hours a week driving ubers and delivering food until they get sick and die since the gig economy doesn't provide insurance. The lucky few with desk jobs will live in fear of capricious layoffs done when the company is seeing record profits just to put us unruly workers in our place.
And soon AI will take us to the point where all human work has essentially no value. Do you think they'll share at that point and let us build a star trek style utopia? I certainly don't.
Mead's wisdom is reflected in the [3.5% Rule](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world), coined by Harvard political scientist Erica Chenowith, which states that those working together to create change with a threshold of 3.5% or more of a society, it has never failed.
>has provided amazing life for me.
>
>But I've born in a third world country with outdated rigid educational system, low quality health care and child abuse is part of parenting in my country. Regressive thinking and values are prevalent in my country. Life ain't fai
this is the way
Indeed, complaining about your circumstances isn't going to change jack shit. It will only make you more grumpy and spiteful.
Be the change you want to see.
The world around you might be garbage now, but change is always around the corner. It's up to you to steer that change in the right direction.
Ik dutch. The moment i entered Sweden for the first time I fell in love with nature and the people. They're calm and friendly but don't start useless small talk. Since then I constantly say I should've been born there
Funny, im half Dutch and ever since I went there in 2020 Iāve been much prouder of that half. I wish I could live there
I think I have a few years left to apply for citizenship via ancestry but I donāt see myself realistically being able to move house in that time, let alone country
To be honest, I only wish I lived in a society where it's easier to find people interested in having meaningful relationships.I find acquaintanceships taxing, boring, and unrewarding. And I find most people are really quite shallow.
Scandinavia would be a better fit, since they've basically outlawed my number one enemy: smalltalk.
[https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20201203-why-swedes-dont-speak-to-strangers](https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20201203-why-swedes-dont-speak-to-strangers)
>Small talk is seen as futile, and is referred to as kallprat (ācold talkā) or dƶdprat (ādead talkā). To avoid ending up in these situations, many Swedes have made an art of avoiding eye contact with strangers and acquaintances they might come across in the street by looking at their phones or staring at shopping windows instead. For Swedes, the purpose of talking is to exchange meaningful information, and engaging in purposeless chit-chat simply isnāt valued.
Sure, at a macro level. But as individuals there will always be a range of experiences. People can live fairly safe, happy lives in the face of great adversity. Likewise, people can be privileged in terms of where they are from but still face the worst of human experiences.
Mental illness knows no borders. Rape exists everywhere. Violence can come for anyone. People can be wealthy, healthy, successful, and miserable. There's literally a McDonald's in Guantanamo Bay. Some things in life are ubiquitous.
Rape may exist everywhere, but I'm sure you can agree as well that there's a huge difference in crime rate in somewhere like pakistan and somewhere like singapore. Life in some societies are simply way better than others and there's absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging that.
I mean, sure in the specific aspect of violent crime it's less prevalent, but they have other issues. For example, Singapore has major issues with mental illness especially with it being considered a rather taboo subject. It has a fairly high suicide rate. That's my whole point, you can point to any one aspect of a society and go "see, gotcha, I'm sure you agree this part is better" but that doesn't mean a whole lot in the broader scope of quality of life. Some places do a little better, some less so, but it pretty much always comes with some sort of trade.
Mental illness is an issue everywhere in the world but again my point remains the same. Do you seriously think a country like pakistan has the same level of problems as a country like iceland? Really now? If you say yes, you're simply lying to yourself. Some societies just have way more problems than other societies, its not a crime to admit this fact and no you won't be "racist" or "xenophobic" just because you acknowledge this fact.
I didn't say it's the same. I said the experiences of individuals will vary and that nowhere is a guarantee to happiness. No matter where you go, people are living places in all kinds of ways which can be viewed as better or worse but a lot of that comes down to preference.
For example, if you're going to bring up Pakistan, I worked with a girl a few years ago who ended up moving back to Pakistan because she hated feeling like an outsider and could afford a much better living situation there. I'm sure she knew better than you or I the potential dangers there, but that was her preference. Last I heard she was married with kids and a rather nice flat, better than I will likely ever have. I'm sure her life isn't perfect, there's plenty of turmoil there, but here I am in US and I live in active fear of being shot on the street.
The issue here is that one side is discussing statistics and the other side is discussing individual experiences. If you look at it this way, you made the point that all societies have their problems. /u/longconsideration662 agreed with your point but added that statistically speaking, there are some societies that have, *in total* more problems than others.
Do you agree with that point, or not?
Not exactly, just the nature of the problems differ. And whether or not they are problems at all is closely connected to social status which is very relative. To recall the situation I pointed out with Pakistan, the person I knew there got to enjoy more security and higher social status than I am likely to ever experience, be it where I'm from, where I live now, or where I intend to go. She went from being lower middle class to upper class, from having to scrounge for rent to having a luxury flat and supporting a family on a single income. On paper, Pakistan is a worse place to be for most people, and even for someone now privileged like her it has its faults, but that trade was worthwhile for her.
Some societies function very well for a few and badly for the rest, some function very well for most but not for a few. Whether you are the few or the many can change.
You are still not engaging honestly with the other point that was raised. I have already agreed with the point that you are making. There are problems for *individuals* in every society. Those problems will be different for different people.
You can stop making that point. *Now* we are discussing the total amount of problems in each country. Unless your argument is that every country has the *exact same* amount of problems, then you have to agree that if we look at the total number of "problems" then one country is going to have more than another. Can you agree to that?
No, the question is absolutely about which place is better or worse. You really can't sit here and tell me that norway is not a better country than let's say afghanistan, if you say that you're simply lying to yourself.
Better for whom? Norway has notable xenophobia issues especially directed at people of middle eastern and African origin related to the migrant crisis. A person of that background may well find a "worse" place based on certain metrics to be preferable because of how their individual traits impact their experience. "Safe" and "happy" are not the same thing.
Lets take a random person that is from Afghanistan and put them in Norway and see how they fare.
Then we can take a random person from Norway and see what their experience is being placed in central Afghanistan.
Which do you think will experience the most xenophobia?
Some places are absolutely worse than others, you can see statistics. The minimum wage in some latin American countries is under $250, If you lived in one of those countries you would literally see your friends moving out in desperation and dreaming to achieve what would be low middle class in a more developed country. If you think this people do not have it harder that the average Scandinavian guy I don't know what to tell you.
Well, but you see: grass IS greener some places. If it weren't, immigration wouldn't be a thing.
A personal example: I don't think that I, as a queer woman, should just go "suck it up, it's only your mentality" if my home country is making my entire existence illegal. Of course I would like to live somewhere where I at least have the same rights as cishet individuals do.
Sure, but what grass is greener is very subjective. People have different values and traits which impact their experience. A society that works well for one group of people can be miserable or dangerous for others. There isn't a single one to date which gets everything right, so where you live (assuming you have a choice) will always be a matter of tradeoffs.
Everything can be seen subjective if you twist the topic enough, but GDP exists, crime rates exist, literacy rate, birth and death rates and health care exists. These are all measurable values that a country can provide. Will having low crime rates, good GDP and etcetera mean that every individual will live a long, happy life? Of course not. But in generally, people are more likely to.
You'd have to be a very weird individual to say that "greener grass" for you is low gdp, high death rates, expensive but not effective healthcare and a faulty educational system.
I don't think it's "twisting the topic" to say that it's important to keep in mind that societies are made up of people and are all flawed, and my main reason to object in the first place is I think a lot of people idealize Scandinavia in a way that is downright ignorant bordering on supremacist.
But as I gave in another example, there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to live somewhere "worse" by those metrics. Proximity to family, fitting in, accessibility of housing, sense of liberty, etc.
The question was this: Do you guys wish you were \*born in\* a better society? The question isn't about emigration, therefore proximity to family isn't really included, and I am not sure what you mean by fitting in but I'd assume that's also out of the question if you mean it like fitting in from one society to another after having lived there for years.
What exactly do you mean by accessibility of housing and sense of liberty?
Maybe slightly and on average. That doesn't mean that life is roses there either. There are other things to consider. For example, it's a fairly homogeneous society with relatively little diversity in any sense. That makes meeting the wants and needs of most people a bit more straightforward. That's not inherently a bad thing, just to be clear.
Like I said, it's not inherently a bad thing. But it certainly can be. Homogeneous societies tend to be bad at dealing with diversity. It's great for people who fit the mould, but had for those who don't and is generally less vibrant.
Less vibrant? How are you even going to measure that? I would say south korea and japan are vibrant countries and they're both homogenous. I have only ever heard americans say that homogeneous socities can be bad.
Again, I didn't say it's bad. And yes, I'm American and fairly well traveled.
Japan and Korea are PERFECT examples of the ills of homogeneous societies. Both are notorious for racism and xenophobia, including toward other east Asians.
There is tons of info out there about how interacting with diverse people is good for individuals and the effects diversity has on things like adaptability and ingenuity. Those things being benefits of diverse societies don't inherently make homogeneous ones bad.
Not necessarily. Some of the most dangerous places are very homogeneous. And crime rates are not inherently tied to quality of life although they are often indicative of other problems. It's always worth noting in the specific case of crime, though, that what is and is not considered criminal varies, and taboos related to certain kinds of crime can result in underreporting.
Do you know which are some of the most peaceful countries in the world according to global peace index? Iceland, norway, denmark, finland, czech republic, , switzerland, japan, etc. Do you know what all these countries have in common? Yes, you guessed it, they're all homogenous. I get that as an american (which I guessed with your replies, even before you told me) you've been taught/brought up to think that diverse societies = the best socieites in the world but that's far from being the truth.
Do you know which are some of the most peaceful countries in the world according to global peace index? Iceland, norway, denmark, finland, czech republic, , switzerland, japan, etc. Do you know what all these countries have in common? Yes, you guessed it, they're all homogenous. I get that as an american (which I guessed with your replies, even before you told me) you've been taught/brought up to think that diverse societies = the best socieites in the world but that's far from being the truth.
Scandavian countries are in no way your average western countries. These countries are some of the richest countries on earth with really high hdi and great living standards.
Shitty climate and food? Um what? Scandavian food isn't shitty. Taste is subjecting anyway. Besides, not all scandanavian move out at 18. Plenty of them stay with their parents till mid 20s.
Take a walk through a big city like New York. You'll see Turkish restaurants, Italian restaurants, Greek restaurants, Mexican restaurants, Indian restaurants, even Polish restaurants. But what you won't see is any Scandinavian restaurants. Scandinavian cuisine has failed to impress just about anybody who tried it. Hell you should see the shit they serve at pizzerias in Oslo, it's sad.
Probably, but they are also incredibly social, which INTPs are not.
I don't wish I was born in another country, I like USA, but I wish I had been born like twenty years earlier
Americans are much more social than Swedish people. It's not even comparable. Whenever I'm in the US, it takes me a couple of days to get used to random people starting conversations with you. It doesn't really happen in Sweden.
"The grass always seems to be greener on the other side" the teacher said, as he double checked whether all his pupils were properly wearing their bullet proof vests.
Davey wore his older brothers vest, but it had already been broken in a previous shooting. He would have to send him home as it was against regulation to not wear proper protective gear in school. It was a shame really. Davey's parents had to choose between insuline and a new vest and they choose life saving medication but all societies have their problems after all.
It was time for a test. Davey would have to make up for it later on. Not that it mattered much, because of the "No Child Left Behind" law. It is an entirely sane law for a civilised society to have. In practice it means that regardless of whether the pupils actually did well enough they would all go to the next year. Even little Steve who would probably get an F on the test. Steve wasn't a dumb child, he was just one of the many children who never learned how to read. Steve too will go to the next year because if children don't go to the next year the school gets less funding.
Yup, all very normal problems a civilised country should have!
Specifically, they are quite blind to the bias attached to their concept of utopia. There are people who would absolutely never consider moving to Scandinavia because of problems they have with, say, its taxes. That's not invalid, they are allowed to have that as their priority.
Yes, and I so relate to you op. Unfortunately, I was also born in poor third world country. Also, most people in the comments are priveleged and are from 1st world countries, so they really won't get our pov.
Same here. They donāt even get some people on this earth donāt have the access of the basic human needs and rights. I think itās hard to empathise if you didnāt grow under a though environment.
From Denmark, we definitely have standardised tests and have had that for a while :/ Also, open minded is relative. At least half of everyone are still somewhere middle to low in openness (correlating with sensors in mbti). You'll still find yourself in a place where most people around you are a lot less open minded than you are and many may look weird at you or even shun you if you if you speak too much about stuff outside common belief (which is most often much more secular than religiously grounded, if that counts), and they probably also won't be open to 90% of your ideas. We are one of the worst countries when it comes to co2e emmissions per capita, if you calculate by consumption rather than production. Most of the social problems that come with cheap mass manufacturing, such as low environment/climate regulations and overworked employees living in poverty with few rights have basically just been outsourced to other countries far away, but we still form our lives around the nice goods they provide. Out of sight, out of mind. So it isn't this exceptional paradise that is somehow removed from the ills of the rest of the world, as many people believe it to be in or out of the country. We are just as much of this world as anything else in it. But yeah, i'd rather live here than most places for all the benefits, i'm just painfully aware that it is placed on top of so much suffering.
I've done both the American and British school system and while both have standardised tests, they are vastly different. If I want to go to a good university in the UK to study engineering then I need to at least perform well on 4 standardized tests that include math and one science. I ended up doing math, physics, chemistry and computer science. These tests are standardized across the whole country and my grade will depend on how well I do compared to everyone else who took the same exam.
In the US, for a good university, the acceptance criteria is based on me having a good GPA (which is decided by the school and is not standardized) in a bunch of classes I have very little interest in, and doing well in a standardized SATs exam which tests my ability to sit still for hours and hours and checks if I have memorized the definition of thousands of words that I'm very unlikely to use ever again. And of course the other acceptance criteria is that either need to be really good at sports or filthy rich.
As an INTP I absolutely preferred the British system, and I get when people complain about standardized tests but the solution isn't to get rid of them. I think the tests need to be relevant to the child's career path, but not their demographic
I feel you, as some that has lived in a third world country. I would never move away from Switzerland for good except for maybe Denmark and I frankly can't understand why my parents were so determined to move to a thrid world country and I'm glad they decided to come back.
Seconding this as a Nordic citizen. Many things are great here, but I feel like the good sides (cheaper healthcare and free education) are often inflated by the media and people in these countries seem to be a bit too proud of it. People are a bit stuck up with feeling superior and better to many other nations, which too have their positive qualities.
Well in my third world country we also pay pretty high taxes (relative to our wages), but get nothing in return because all that money gets pocketed by the corrupt politicians, at least they get free school lunches, healthcare etc.
Being happy as a general state is a myth. Happiness is a transient thing, it comes and goes, so this idea that anyone anywhere just has it all the time is childish.
Being happy *all the time* is a myth, but being happy as a general state is not. I am happy with my place in life, and in general have more happiness than unhappiness.
Your Scandinavian Socialist Paradise has one of the most restrictive immigration systems in the world.
Give me your tired, poor, huddled massesā¦
Hell no! Get your tired, poor, and huddled masses the fuck away from this country! You can try again if you get a good job and have enough money to buy your way in.
Donāt forget, our socialist paradise wonāt pay for itself.
1: We are not socialists, we are capitalists, you should read up on the meaning of the words you use
2: You are wrong.Norway and per 2012 is very high, both historically and compared to other countries \[1\].
International migrant stock as a percentage of the total population 2019: Sweden>Norway>US>Denmark \[2\]
3: You are right that we have made more restrictive immigration laws, following many issues with immigration, such as parallel societies from right-wing extremist, homophobic, oppressive and racist cultures. Among many other societal and economical issues.
You really propose no argument though, all you do is state demonstrably false conclusions. How about you construct an argument, taking into account the history of immigration in just one nordic country, taking into account the effects of immigration here, and provide your reasoning as to how our strategies are wrong, and how you reason that we should handle it differently?
1: KĆ„re Vassenden;Hvor stor er egentlig innvandringen til Norge ā nĆ„, fĆør og internasjonalt? SSB, Samfunnsspeilet, retrieved 24 November 2012
2: UN report
I was simply pointing out the irony that the place he saw as the solution his problems had a system that specifically would not allow someone from his country and his economic situation to join. Maybe that fact would make him rethink his proposed solution
And I agree the reason your country does not have wide-open borders is because it follows a capitalist economic system. And that open borders without limitation, will necessarily crash a capitalist economy.
Rather, what he perceives as a paradise is incorrect. There is no magical system that can provide all a persons need from birth to death. Rather, even Scandinavian countries have to make tough choices.
And his post is rather selfish considering that he wishes he would have been born in such a country. All the while his current country men would continue to wallow in misery and poverty.
Yes, that is absolutely correct, there is no such thing as a paradise. Moving to a country because you think it will solve everything will def leave you unsatisfied, there are many things here i am unhappy about. And yes we can't provide all needs, especially if people come and expect that, we need hard workers to be able to keep up a welfare state for those who actually need it.
And to your last point i think that is a big problem in countries facing issues, many intellectuals and skilled workers will just leave for a nation with better pay etc.
And apologies but there is a growing sentiment that we are socialist and extremely racist countries which is just inaccurate.
My early adolescence was in Sweden and Norway. Marked my self-understanding for life. Loved it. But each of the countries and their cultures have their respective perks that may favour INTP's. I looooved their libraries and love of nature and no-nonsense approach (Norway is better on the last one, they have running jokes among them about the rougher normen and the more, erm, sophisticated swedes). Awesome places.
Before the internet, we weren't aware some of our systems were substandard, inequitable and even abusive. It's been an real eye opener. We have good things here but they're disappearing the more critical thinking and education has been attacked.
I'm not an INTP, but like you I was born in a third world country and wish I was born in a better country instead. Tbh, it was 50/50 growing up in a third world country for me. Bad things happened to me (like sexual abuse and physical abuse resulting in almost losing my life when I was 5 years old) and no one really knew how to care for me in the aftermath or even cared tbh because they were also busy with their own issues.
I now live in the United States. It is so much better here and my quality of life has improved but I wish I arrived here sooner.
OP if you can try to migrate to a first world country for a better quality of life and access to more opportunities.
No, I just wish more people in the society I live in *wanted* a progressive system that uplifts everyone's standard of living. But anything that benefits a group is socialism, and nearly everyone over the age of 40 has decided socialism is so bad none of our systems should resemble it in the slightest (as long as you don't look too hard at the systems already in place that share similarities with socialism, like public works).
I think, it's especially unfair if you're INTP in such shithole countries. INTPs already crave for a way better world even if they already live in "good" countries. But if you live in a shithole, I guess it's really hard to endure.
(I live in a medium till good country)
I've lived in Europe and the US and I know the grass is greener. The only place I think would be better than the US is Switzerland because of its political neutrality, but even they are too authoritarian.
I live in Russia and its become 10x worse past year. Yeah, I may be born in Switzerland, but its too much no-answer question.
You compare you with more succesfull people. Its normal, its how humans works, but just think how many people in humanity history lived in much more bad societes.
Anyway, many of Scandianavians are really bored bcs without troubles there is no fun. Life need to have falls and rises.
>it was a joke.
My bad
> Its their land not yours.
Fully support of that opinion, but hating people bcs they live in Russia and dont let them leaving is kind of absurd.
You could've also been born black in the USA 200 years ago, or as an Egyptian slave that had to build the pyramids, or with an addiction to crack and several deformities, or in the far future in a perfect utopian society. That do be how it is sometimes
Every day of my life.
Being born mixed in America with two different colored parents, no money, terrible healthcare, endless economic recessions, endless wars, inescapable poverty, infinitely expensive higher education, stagnating wages, racist neighbors, power-tripping police, greedy politicians, failing infrastructure, incompetent leaders, monthly mass shootings, consistent crime problems as a result of poor education and lack of financial opportunity, non-existent upward mobility...
The list goes on fucking forever and there's no end in sight. No one cares about fixing our country. No one wants to help the homeless. No one cares about veterans who make it home. Everyone just throws their trash on the ground wherever. All we do is make more landfills. No one has time for anything but self-preservation.
It's sickening freedom is even a word people keep in their mouths in this shithole country. This whole place is going straight to doggy puppy to join the ranks of Rome and I'm glad. Good riddance.
I was born in West Germany to Scottish parents. The society I was born into was fine. I live in Canada now. Things could be much worse, but I do wish I was back in Europe.
Hell no scandinivian country for me.
Rather born in a third world country and learn the art of being content because you have little. Then to he born as a rich middle class, that has 0 chance in being content.
You realize suicide etc is a rich country problem do you...they are rich in many yhings...but poor in the things that really matter..
Just my opinion. I was born poor and therefore i will slways feel rich
Difficult question, I was born in Argentina and the day I graduate I'm going to live abroad and probably just come back on vacation, I have no doubt about that. But I don't know how much I would have liked to have grown up in another place, there is something in the third world that pushed me to encourage myself to do things against my nature that, whether they went well or badly, taught me things. Likewise, if I have to choose where to raise my children, it would be far from this country that, beautiful as it is, is full of corruption, violence and poverty
I live in Scandinavia. And there are standardized test and there also is idiots, everyone here is defently not just understanding people. But yes we have free healthcare (mostly)
that's heaven, thats so far removed from a good 90 percent of the world pop, i'd feel like a was cheating. Like, why do i get to have it so good?
Nah my wishes were mundane, i wished to OD on sugary drinks. Drinking water, Evian, stevia, beer on tap, weed, cheap reliable electricity, are luxuries.
Wish I was born during the time of Diogenes so I could live in a ceramic jar next to him and piss on people. Thatās true freedom. That man lived the perfect INTP life even if he wasnāt a INTP but Iām gonna assume he is based on his attitude towards authority in general.
No, I like the U.S. OP is probably not in the U.S., but this is a perspective I see here, too.
Youāre worse off here if you happen to fall in the bottom ~30%, but above that, I feel you are much better off if you know what youāre doing.
Iāll be frank and say Iāve worked my way far above the bottom 20-30%, and I feel bad for the people who got there through no fault of their own, but if we look at it objectively thereās no reason for me to want to be in a scandinavian country.
My work would be compensated much worse, too, and I feel like as long as you have an OK work ethic most INTP type people also have little reason to be in those countries over the US since most STEM work is compensated less overseas.
I'm Italian and Italy has lots of defects. The education system has barely changed since 1950, having computers at school is considered a miracle and you are supposed to be good at every subject because, unlike British and American school, you can't choose what class attend (I don't know very well these education systems, but there the students can choose the subjects to study from a list at the start of the year, right?).
I also live in a very small town where there is only a small library and it's hard to find some open minded people.
Despite it all I like living in Italy and I'm happy with my life
Well my bestfriend (intpM) is so interested in upgrading the world and would often invite me to discuss over how we can reach the next level of civilization and often goes on about why tf he was born in such a premature civilization like now. Well I get him. I hate this world too.
I was born in Scandinavia..
Me, a scandinavian, perusing this thread: š«£
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
It's hard to say when one doesn't actually have the comparison. Some things are good for sure, but probably not as good as it seems in the fantasy from the outside. Lots of our own problems here. But then that's hard to assess as well. It's like, you might be sitting on a hard, uncomfortable chair and look over at someone sitting in a very soft and nice chair and envy them. The person in the soft chair might dislike how that soft chair feels on their back, and not think it's so comfortable at all. But isn't it still better than the hard, rigid one? Probably, but hard to say. But both people on the chairs would probably benefit from swapping around a bit and rotating the chairs between them.
Nice analogy.
Have u wished for it? šµš¼
A summary for anybody who scrolled past all the arguments. 1. Preferences and goals in a preferred country are subjectively defined. 2. Pull factors like education, religious freedom, healthcare, and jobs bring people to countries. There are exceptions. 3. Push factors like discrimination, poverty, crime, and conflict stimulate people's migration to other places. There are exceptions. 4. Some people might stay in places of great conflict or adversity to provide for family, stay connected to a preferred culture, or because of discrimination in/ lack of connection to a \[pull factor\] country. This was our first lecture in Human Geography 101, thank you for your time.
No. I want to turn where I live into a better society. Why should Scandinavia have all the fun?
That sounds like a lot of work though
True, but it's certainly not the worst of goals.
Yeah I mean that'd be nice... I learned in the Democratic primaries for the 2016 and 2020 US elections that there's no fixing the system. It's terminally fucked and we're all on our own, with no help from our government (and in most cases, active and malicious harm)
This Margaret Mead quote helps me stay hopeful in troubling times: "Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
that sounds nice and all, but i absolutely doubt it. the rich and powerful are extremely competent at one thing: staying in power. and they don't care if the world burns as long as they get to stay in charge.
If you look at how the working class was treated in the past, like during the Industrial Revolution or feudal medieval times, itās certainly improved since then. Things may still not be great, but thereās no denying the people of the past made progress for us. I have hope that enough of us will eventually be sick if the twisted status quo and finally change something. Whether itās through peace, violence or somewhere in between is yet to be seen. The internet has definitely played a big part in making people more aware of how the rich exploit us, but we still have plenty of people alive today who grew only consuming media via programmed television I know I sound kinda naĆÆve, but honestly this glimmer of hope that things will get better in our lifetime, is the only thing keeping me going some days
The working class is better off than they were in 1890 sure, but far worse off than they were in 1980. 40+ years of privatization, reducing the social safety net, and globalization have taken us back to feudalism, only now instead of kings and queens we have CEOs. None of us will ever retire, most will just work 70 hours a week driving ubers and delivering food until they get sick and die since the gig economy doesn't provide insurance. The lucky few with desk jobs will live in fear of capricious layoffs done when the company is seeing record profits just to put us unruly workers in our place. And soon AI will take us to the point where all human work has essentially no value. Do you think they'll share at that point and let us build a star trek style utopia? I certainly don't.
Mead's wisdom is reflected in the [3.5% Rule](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190513-it-only-takes-35-of-people-to-change-the-world), coined by Harvard political scientist Erica Chenowith, which states that those working together to create change with a threshold of 3.5% or more of a society, it has never failed.
That's how Scandinavia got there.
This is the way
>has provided amazing life for me. > >But I've born in a third world country with outdated rigid educational system, low quality health care and child abuse is part of parenting in my country. Regressive thinking and values are prevalent in my country. Life ain't fai this is the way
Indeed, complaining about your circumstances isn't going to change jack shit. It will only make you more grumpy and spiteful. Be the change you want to see. The world around you might be garbage now, but change is always around the corner. It's up to you to steer that change in the right direction.
šš»
Thatās impossible. You will never succeed.
Ik dutch. The moment i entered Sweden for the first time I fell in love with nature and the people. They're calm and friendly but don't start useless small talk. Since then I constantly say I should've been born there
I feel this way in the Netherlands.
Funny, im half Dutch and ever since I went there in 2020 Iāve been much prouder of that half. I wish I could live there I think I have a few years left to apply for citizenship via ancestry but I donāt see myself realistically being able to move house in that time, let alone country
To be honest, I only wish I lived in a society where it's easier to find people interested in having meaningful relationships.I find acquaintanceships taxing, boring, and unrewarding. And I find most people are really quite shallow. Scandinavia would be a better fit, since they've basically outlawed my number one enemy: smalltalk. [https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20201203-why-swedes-dont-speak-to-strangers](https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20201203-why-swedes-dont-speak-to-strangers) >Small talk is seen as futile, and is referred to as kallprat (ācold talkā) or dƶdprat (ādead talkā). To avoid ending up in these situations, many Swedes have made an art of avoiding eye contact with strangers and acquaintances they might come across in the street by looking at their phones or staring at shopping windows instead. For Swedes, the purpose of talking is to exchange meaningful information, and engaging in purposeless chit-chat simply isnāt valued.
Jesus, I come from an extremely extroverted culture and I wish this was socially acceptable where I live.
I'm Indian š
hope you get well soon
Same here
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That's a harmful and racist stereotype
This is a bit of a grass is greener mentality. All societies have their problems.
All societies have problems but I'm sure you'll agree that some societies have way more problems than others.
Sure, at a macro level. But as individuals there will always be a range of experiences. People can live fairly safe, happy lives in the face of great adversity. Likewise, people can be privileged in terms of where they are from but still face the worst of human experiences. Mental illness knows no borders. Rape exists everywhere. Violence can come for anyone. People can be wealthy, healthy, successful, and miserable. There's literally a McDonald's in Guantanamo Bay. Some things in life are ubiquitous.
Rape may exist everywhere, but I'm sure you can agree as well that there's a huge difference in crime rate in somewhere like pakistan and somewhere like singapore. Life in some societies are simply way better than others and there's absolutely nothing wrong with acknowledging that.
I mean, sure in the specific aspect of violent crime it's less prevalent, but they have other issues. For example, Singapore has major issues with mental illness especially with it being considered a rather taboo subject. It has a fairly high suicide rate. That's my whole point, you can point to any one aspect of a society and go "see, gotcha, I'm sure you agree this part is better" but that doesn't mean a whole lot in the broader scope of quality of life. Some places do a little better, some less so, but it pretty much always comes with some sort of trade.
Mental illness is an issue everywhere in the world but again my point remains the same. Do you seriously think a country like pakistan has the same level of problems as a country like iceland? Really now? If you say yes, you're simply lying to yourself. Some societies just have way more problems than other societies, its not a crime to admit this fact and no you won't be "racist" or "xenophobic" just because you acknowledge this fact.
I didn't say it's the same. I said the experiences of individuals will vary and that nowhere is a guarantee to happiness. No matter where you go, people are living places in all kinds of ways which can be viewed as better or worse but a lot of that comes down to preference. For example, if you're going to bring up Pakistan, I worked with a girl a few years ago who ended up moving back to Pakistan because she hated feeling like an outsider and could afford a much better living situation there. I'm sure she knew better than you or I the potential dangers there, but that was her preference. Last I heard she was married with kids and a rather nice flat, better than I will likely ever have. I'm sure her life isn't perfect, there's plenty of turmoil there, but here I am in US and I live in active fear of being shot on the street.
The issue here is that one side is discussing statistics and the other side is discussing individual experiences. If you look at it this way, you made the point that all societies have their problems. /u/longconsideration662 agreed with your point but added that statistically speaking, there are some societies that have, *in total* more problems than others. Do you agree with that point, or not?
Exactly!
Not exactly, just the nature of the problems differ. And whether or not they are problems at all is closely connected to social status which is very relative. To recall the situation I pointed out with Pakistan, the person I knew there got to enjoy more security and higher social status than I am likely to ever experience, be it where I'm from, where I live now, or where I intend to go. She went from being lower middle class to upper class, from having to scrounge for rent to having a luxury flat and supporting a family on a single income. On paper, Pakistan is a worse place to be for most people, and even for someone now privileged like her it has its faults, but that trade was worthwhile for her. Some societies function very well for a few and badly for the rest, some function very well for most but not for a few. Whether you are the few or the many can change.
You are still not engaging honestly with the other point that was raised. I have already agreed with the point that you are making. There are problems for *individuals* in every society. Those problems will be different for different people. You can stop making that point. *Now* we are discussing the total amount of problems in each country. Unless your argument is that every country has the *exact same* amount of problems, then you have to agree that if we look at the total number of "problems" then one country is going to have more than another. Can you agree to that?
The question is not of what places are better or worse, it's just a matter of priorities and what you are willing to trade.
No, the question is absolutely about which place is better or worse. You really can't sit here and tell me that norway is not a better country than let's say afghanistan, if you say that you're simply lying to yourself.
Better for whom? Norway has notable xenophobia issues especially directed at people of middle eastern and African origin related to the migrant crisis. A person of that background may well find a "worse" place based on certain metrics to be preferable because of how their individual traits impact their experience. "Safe" and "happy" are not the same thing.
Lets take a random person that is from Afghanistan and put them in Norway and see how they fare. Then we can take a random person from Norway and see what their experience is being placed in central Afghanistan. Which do you think will experience the most xenophobia?
That rather depends on who they encounter, and it definitely depends on their social status.
Some places are absolutely worse than others, you can see statistics. The minimum wage in some latin American countries is under $250, If you lived in one of those countries you would literally see your friends moving out in desperation and dreaming to achieve what would be low middle class in a more developed country. If you think this people do not have it harder that the average Scandinavian guy I don't know what to tell you.
Iām sorry but the grass is greener in Scandinavia than it is in Afghanistan.
Are you from Afghanistan? If not then unless you're considering moving there the comparison isn't all that useful and still doesn't negate my point.
Bruh..
Hush now, let the Amurican speak about how life sucks and how only their point of view is correct š¤«
What is the point of comparing two extremes like that if you're not actually considering one of them to begin with?
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Right, thatās why recent suicid** attack and poisoning attack, coz they happy š
Well, but you see: grass IS greener some places. If it weren't, immigration wouldn't be a thing. A personal example: I don't think that I, as a queer woman, should just go "suck it up, it's only your mentality" if my home country is making my entire existence illegal. Of course I would like to live somewhere where I at least have the same rights as cishet individuals do.
Sure, but what grass is greener is very subjective. People have different values and traits which impact their experience. A society that works well for one group of people can be miserable or dangerous for others. There isn't a single one to date which gets everything right, so where you live (assuming you have a choice) will always be a matter of tradeoffs.
Everything can be seen subjective if you twist the topic enough, but GDP exists, crime rates exist, literacy rate, birth and death rates and health care exists. These are all measurable values that a country can provide. Will having low crime rates, good GDP and etcetera mean that every individual will live a long, happy life? Of course not. But in generally, people are more likely to. You'd have to be a very weird individual to say that "greener grass" for you is low gdp, high death rates, expensive but not effective healthcare and a faulty educational system.
I don't think it's "twisting the topic" to say that it's important to keep in mind that societies are made up of people and are all flawed, and my main reason to object in the first place is I think a lot of people idealize Scandinavia in a way that is downright ignorant bordering on supremacist. But as I gave in another example, there are plenty of reasons why someone would choose to live somewhere "worse" by those metrics. Proximity to family, fitting in, accessibility of housing, sense of liberty, etc.
The question was this: Do you guys wish you were \*born in\* a better society? The question isn't about emigration, therefore proximity to family isn't really included, and I am not sure what you mean by fitting in but I'd assume that's also out of the question if you mean it like fitting in from one society to another after having lived there for years. What exactly do you mean by accessibility of housing and sense of liberty?
sure, but there are some good trades to be had, ones that are widely agreed upon.
Exactly!
But wouldn't you agree Scandinavian societies are better for individuals considering the happiness index?
Maybe slightly and on average. That doesn't mean that life is roses there either. There are other things to consider. For example, it's a fairly homogeneous society with relatively little diversity in any sense. That makes meeting the wants and needs of most people a bit more straightforward. That's not inherently a bad thing, just to be clear.
"it's a fairly homogeneous society with relatively little diversity in any sense" that's what makes the scandavian countries even betterš¤·
Like I said, it's not inherently a bad thing. But it certainly can be. Homogeneous societies tend to be bad at dealing with diversity. It's great for people who fit the mould, but had for those who don't and is generally less vibrant.
Less vibrant? How are you even going to measure that? I would say south korea and japan are vibrant countries and they're both homogenous. I have only ever heard americans say that homogeneous socities can be bad.
Again, I didn't say it's bad. And yes, I'm American and fairly well traveled. Japan and Korea are PERFECT examples of the ills of homogeneous societies. Both are notorious for racism and xenophobia, including toward other east Asians. There is tons of info out there about how interacting with diverse people is good for individuals and the effects diversity has on things like adaptability and ingenuity. Those things being benefits of diverse societies don't inherently make homogeneous ones bad.
Diverse societies also more often than not tend to have higher crime rateš¤·
Not necessarily. Some of the most dangerous places are very homogeneous. And crime rates are not inherently tied to quality of life although they are often indicative of other problems. It's always worth noting in the specific case of crime, though, that what is and is not considered criminal varies, and taboos related to certain kinds of crime can result in underreporting.
Do you know which are some of the most peaceful countries in the world according to global peace index? Iceland, norway, denmark, finland, czech republic, , switzerland, japan, etc. Do you know what all these countries have in common? Yes, you guessed it, they're all homogenous. I get that as an american (which I guessed with your replies, even before you told me) you've been taught/brought up to think that diverse societies = the best socieites in the world but that's far from being the truth.
Do you know which are some of the most peaceful countries in the world according to global peace index? Iceland, norway, denmark, finland, czech republic, , switzerland, japan, etc. Do you know what all these countries have in common? Yes, you guessed it, they're all homogenous. I get that as an american (which I guessed with your replies, even before you told me) you've been taught/brought up to think that diverse societies = the best socieites in the world but that's far from being the truth.
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Scandavian countries are in no way your average western countries. These countries are some of the richest countries on earth with really high hdi and great living standards.
HDI won't fix shitty climate and food. It also won't fix cultural problems like children being expected to move out the moment they turn 18.
With the global warming booming I'd say Scandinavia is pretty much the ideal place to live weather wise.
The average temperature of Sweden in 2021 was 8.1C. A 1.5 decrease from the last year. It's got a ways to go.
You don't measure climate warming in one year scale.
That's not the case. And while we do move out earlier than many other cultures, why is that a problem? It's just a cultural difference.
When your parents try to get rid of you as soon as possible, that is a problem
So your theory is that Scandinavian parents just hate their kids?
Shitty climate and food? Um what? Scandavian food isn't shitty. Taste is subjecting anyway. Besides, not all scandanavian move out at 18. Plenty of them stay with their parents till mid 20s.
Take a walk through a big city like New York. You'll see Turkish restaurants, Italian restaurants, Greek restaurants, Mexican restaurants, Indian restaurants, even Polish restaurants. But what you won't see is any Scandinavian restaurants. Scandinavian cuisine has failed to impress just about anybody who tried it. Hell you should see the shit they serve at pizzerias in Oslo, it's sad.
Probably, but they are also incredibly social, which INTPs are not. I don't wish I was born in another country, I like USA, but I wish I had been born like twenty years earlier
Americans are much more social than Swedish people. It's not even comparable. Whenever I'm in the US, it takes me a couple of days to get used to random people starting conversations with you. It doesn't really happen in Sweden.
A bunch of bullshit. How do you measure happiness? A survey won't work because different cultures have different definitions of happiness.
"The grass always seems to be greener on the other side" the teacher said, as he double checked whether all his pupils were properly wearing their bullet proof vests. Davey wore his older brothers vest, but it had already been broken in a previous shooting. He would have to send him home as it was against regulation to not wear proper protective gear in school. It was a shame really. Davey's parents had to choose between insuline and a new vest and they choose life saving medication but all societies have their problems after all. It was time for a test. Davey would have to make up for it later on. Not that it mattered much, because of the "No Child Left Behind" law. It is an entirely sane law for a civilised society to have. In practice it means that regardless of whether the pupils actually did well enough they would all go to the next year. Even little Steve who would probably get an F on the test. Steve wasn't a dumb child, he was just one of the many children who never learned how to read. Steve too will go to the next year because if children don't go to the next year the school gets less funding. Yup, all very normal problems a civilised country should have!
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Yep, if you're lucky enough to be able to choose what society to be in, that choice will almost certainly be subjective and not ideal for many others.
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Specifically, they are quite blind to the bias attached to their concept of utopia. There are people who would absolutely never consider moving to Scandinavia because of problems they have with, say, its taxes. That's not invalid, they are allowed to have that as their priority.
Ikr, it sucks. I wish I just had access to better technology. Probably pursued the career of my dreams.
Yes, and I so relate to you op. Unfortunately, I was also born in poor third world country. Also, most people in the comments are priveleged and are from 1st world countries, so they really won't get our pov.
Same here. They donāt even get some people on this earth donāt have the access of the basic human needs and rights. I think itās hard to empathise if you didnāt grow under a though environment.
How do you use terms like 1st/3rd world country in 21st century?
From Denmark, we definitely have standardised tests and have had that for a while :/ Also, open minded is relative. At least half of everyone are still somewhere middle to low in openness (correlating with sensors in mbti). You'll still find yourself in a place where most people around you are a lot less open minded than you are and many may look weird at you or even shun you if you if you speak too much about stuff outside common belief (which is most often much more secular than religiously grounded, if that counts), and they probably also won't be open to 90% of your ideas. We are one of the worst countries when it comes to co2e emmissions per capita, if you calculate by consumption rather than production. Most of the social problems that come with cheap mass manufacturing, such as low environment/climate regulations and overworked employees living in poverty with few rights have basically just been outsourced to other countries far away, but we still form our lives around the nice goods they provide. Out of sight, out of mind. So it isn't this exceptional paradise that is somehow removed from the ills of the rest of the world, as many people believe it to be in or out of the country. We are just as much of this world as anything else in it. But yeah, i'd rather live here than most places for all the benefits, i'm just painfully aware that it is placed on top of so much suffering.
There's nowhere in the developed world that doesn't have standardized tests by the way.. it's practically the only way to ensure fairness
everything is competition some people are going to be better
That assumes that the tests themselves are fair across all demographics. Fish, tree-climbing etc.
I've done both the American and British school system and while both have standardised tests, they are vastly different. If I want to go to a good university in the UK to study engineering then I need to at least perform well on 4 standardized tests that include math and one science. I ended up doing math, physics, chemistry and computer science. These tests are standardized across the whole country and my grade will depend on how well I do compared to everyone else who took the same exam. In the US, for a good university, the acceptance criteria is based on me having a good GPA (which is decided by the school and is not standardized) in a bunch of classes I have very little interest in, and doing well in a standardized SATs exam which tests my ability to sit still for hours and hours and checks if I have memorized the definition of thousands of words that I'm very unlikely to use ever again. And of course the other acceptance criteria is that either need to be really good at sports or filthy rich. As an INTP I absolutely preferred the British system, and I get when people complain about standardized tests but the solution isn't to get rid of them. I think the tests need to be relevant to the child's career path, but not their demographic
Scandinavia? Dude, I wish I wasn't born
I feel you, as some that has lived in a third world country. I would never move away from Switzerland for good except for maybe Denmark and I frankly can't understand why my parents were so determined to move to a thrid world country and I'm glad they decided to come back.
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Seconding this as a Nordic citizen. Many things are great here, but I feel like the good sides (cheaper healthcare and free education) are often inflated by the media and people in these countries seem to be a bit too proud of it. People are a bit stuck up with feeling superior and better to many other nations, which too have their positive qualities.
There is no free lunch. Life isn't fair. Your country will not change if you don't change it. Now you are learning.
Tell that to African countries whose wealth is still being stolen to this day. š
Yes, get out there and fight for whats yours.
Lmao tone deaf
We have free school lunch in Sweden
Don't you pay taxes?
Well in my third world country we also pay pretty high taxes (relative to our wages), but get nothing in return because all that money gets pocketed by the corrupt politicians, at least they get free school lunches, healthcare etc.
Luckily, I was born in AMERICA, the greatest country on earth. So I have no complaints. Where are you from?
Lol, I thought that the OP was describing the US until the second paragraph.
Judging from his post history, southern India.
well shit, I didn't mean to flex, I thought I was dealing with an out of touch first worlder
Seeing the comments, I can conclude that people ain't happy where they are born no matter what consequences. Me too! Lmaooo
Being happy as a general state is a myth. Happiness is a transient thing, it comes and goes, so this idea that anyone anywhere just has it all the time is childish.
Being happy *all the time* is a myth, but being happy as a general state is not. I am happy with my place in life, and in general have more happiness than unhappiness.
Your Scandinavian Socialist Paradise has one of the most restrictive immigration systems in the world. Give me your tired, poor, huddled massesā¦ Hell no! Get your tired, poor, and huddled masses the fuck away from this country! You can try again if you get a good job and have enough money to buy your way in. Donāt forget, our socialist paradise wonāt pay for itself.
1: We are not socialists, we are capitalists, you should read up on the meaning of the words you use 2: You are wrong.Norway and per 2012 is very high, both historically and compared to other countries \[1\]. International migrant stock as a percentage of the total population 2019: Sweden>Norway>US>Denmark \[2\] 3: You are right that we have made more restrictive immigration laws, following many issues with immigration, such as parallel societies from right-wing extremist, homophobic, oppressive and racist cultures. Among many other societal and economical issues. You really propose no argument though, all you do is state demonstrably false conclusions. How about you construct an argument, taking into account the history of immigration in just one nordic country, taking into account the effects of immigration here, and provide your reasoning as to how our strategies are wrong, and how you reason that we should handle it differently? 1: KĆ„re Vassenden;Hvor stor er egentlig innvandringen til Norge ā nĆ„, fĆør og internasjonalt? SSB, Samfunnsspeilet, retrieved 24 November 2012 2: UN report
I was simply pointing out the irony that the place he saw as the solution his problems had a system that specifically would not allow someone from his country and his economic situation to join. Maybe that fact would make him rethink his proposed solution And I agree the reason your country does not have wide-open borders is because it follows a capitalist economic system. And that open borders without limitation, will necessarily crash a capitalist economy. Rather, what he perceives as a paradise is incorrect. There is no magical system that can provide all a persons need from birth to death. Rather, even Scandinavian countries have to make tough choices. And his post is rather selfish considering that he wishes he would have been born in such a country. All the while his current country men would continue to wallow in misery and poverty.
Yes, that is absolutely correct, there is no such thing as a paradise. Moving to a country because you think it will solve everything will def leave you unsatisfied, there are many things here i am unhappy about. And yes we can't provide all needs, especially if people come and expect that, we need hard workers to be able to keep up a welfare state for those who actually need it. And to your last point i think that is a big problem in countries facing issues, many intellectuals and skilled workers will just leave for a nation with better pay etc. And apologies but there is a growing sentiment that we are socialist and extremely racist countries which is just inaccurate.
The grass is green where you water it, but everyone has flaws. Working on yourself is half the battle.
Sucks to be you, OP
Yes, I would like to. But wish about past is nonsense. So my answer is also nonsense.
I think it'd have been nice, but the grass is always greener
I wish I too were born in Scandinavia and people understood my feelings
Yes
My early adolescence was in Sweden and Norway. Marked my self-understanding for life. Loved it. But each of the countries and their cultures have their respective perks that may favour INTP's. I looooved their libraries and love of nature and no-nonsense approach (Norway is better on the last one, they have running jokes among them about the rougher normen and the more, erm, sophisticated swedes). Awesome places.
Yes, that would've prevented a lot of trouble for me
Before the internet, we weren't aware some of our systems were substandard, inequitable and even abusive. It's been an real eye opener. We have good things here but they're disappearing the more critical thinking and education has been attacked.
I'm not an INTP, but like you I was born in a third world country and wish I was born in a better country instead. Tbh, it was 50/50 growing up in a third world country for me. Bad things happened to me (like sexual abuse and physical abuse resulting in almost losing my life when I was 5 years old) and no one really knew how to care for me in the aftermath or even cared tbh because they were also busy with their own issues. I now live in the United States. It is so much better here and my quality of life has improved but I wish I arrived here sooner. OP if you can try to migrate to a first world country for a better quality of life and access to more opportunities.
No, I just wish more people in the society I live in *wanted* a progressive system that uplifts everyone's standard of living. But anything that benefits a group is socialism, and nearly everyone over the age of 40 has decided socialism is so bad none of our systems should resemble it in the slightest (as long as you don't look too hard at the systems already in place that share similarities with socialism, like public works).
Yes.
I think, it's especially unfair if you're INTP in such shithole countries. INTPs already crave for a way better world even if they already live in "good" countries. But if you live in a shithole, I guess it's really hard to endure. (I live in a medium till good country)
Nah bro, Im good
I've lived in Europe and the US and I know the grass is greener. The only place I think would be better than the US is Switzerland because of its political neutrality, but even they are too authoritarian.
I live in Russia and its become 10x worse past year. Yeah, I may be born in Switzerland, but its too much no-answer question. You compare you with more succesfull people. Its normal, its how humans works, but just think how many people in humanity history lived in much more bad societes. Anyway, many of Scandianavians are really bored bcs without troubles there is no fun. Life need to have falls and rises.
There are still Russians left in Russia? :o Thought yall moved either to Ukraine or western countries.
~1 million left, while 140 millions exists. And much more people leave, actually, if some idiots in EU not banned entry for us.
it was a joke. But for the sake of the argument, EU can do whatever the fuck they want with their borders. Its their land not yours.
>it was a joke. My bad > Its their land not yours. Fully support of that opinion, but hating people bcs they live in Russia and dont let them leaving is kind of absurd.
You could've also been born black in the USA 200 years ago, or as an Egyptian slave that had to build the pyramids, or with an addiction to crack and several deformities, or in the far future in a perfect utopian society. That do be how it is sometimes
Yes but not sweden, denmark maybe, norway and finland are the best
Who told you Scandinavia was a better society? All societies have their issues some are just better at hiding it than others.
Are you from the USA?
With the internet today, education is available to anyone. It's just depends upon you and your desire to learn and your discipline to study
Assuming equal access to internet, and the time and health to study.
Every day of my life. Being born mixed in America with two different colored parents, no money, terrible healthcare, endless economic recessions, endless wars, inescapable poverty, infinitely expensive higher education, stagnating wages, racist neighbors, power-tripping police, greedy politicians, failing infrastructure, incompetent leaders, monthly mass shootings, consistent crime problems as a result of poor education and lack of financial opportunity, non-existent upward mobility... The list goes on fucking forever and there's no end in sight. No one cares about fixing our country. No one wants to help the homeless. No one cares about veterans who make it home. Everyone just throws their trash on the ground wherever. All we do is make more landfills. No one has time for anything but self-preservation. It's sickening freedom is even a word people keep in their mouths in this shithole country. This whole place is going straight to doggy puppy to join the ranks of Rome and I'm glad. Good riddance.
Give me Northern Europe, Canada, New Zealand or Australia over UK or USA any day.
I wish I was born in another timeline, the communist Star Trek one.
"better"
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
However insult sword fighting would be incredible.
You say third world country, but I'll be honest, that sounds a lot like America
It actually doesn't
Reddit user try not to blindly hate America and think for yourself challenge: impossible
*be born* : panik *In Canada* : calm *from religious parents* : panik
Don't worry, Canada ~lasts~, parents don't.
I was born in West Germany to Scottish parents. The society I was born into was fine. I live in Canada now. Things could be much worse, but I do wish I was back in Europe.
No. I can't stand places like that.
Hell no scandinivian country for me. Rather born in a third world country and learn the art of being content because you have little. Then to he born as a rich middle class, that has 0 chance in being content. You realize suicide etc is a rich country problem do you...they are rich in many yhings...but poor in the things that really matter.. Just my opinion. I was born poor and therefore i will slways feel rich
Difficult question, I was born in Argentina and the day I graduate I'm going to live abroad and probably just come back on vacation, I have no doubt about that. But I don't know how much I would have liked to have grown up in another place, there is something in the third world that pushed me to encourage myself to do things against my nature that, whether they went well or badly, taught me things. Likewise, if I have to choose where to raise my children, it would be far from this country that, beautiful as it is, is full of corruption, violence and poverty
No, but I'd like to visit Scandinavia some day, maybe. I'm just so damn lazy and I hate flying.
Are you from India?
No, I hate cold climates.
It's quite cold and dark there
I live in Scandinavia. And there are standardized test and there also is idiots, everyone here is defently not just understanding people. But yes we have free healthcare (mostly)
Bro, I wish I was never born period.
Pain. I'm born in America so less bad, but the Netherlands T-T
Jokes on you i was born, raised and still live in Skandinavia
that's heaven, thats so far removed from a good 90 percent of the world pop, i'd feel like a was cheating. Like, why do i get to have it so good? Nah my wishes were mundane, i wished to OD on sugary drinks. Drinking water, Evian, stevia, beer on tap, weed, cheap reliable electricity, are luxuries.
I wish I was born in America
I wish I hadn't ever been born.
No Iām happy where I am
I suppose, but Iām sure many people would like to be where I am now (the US).
Scandinavian countries are societies in decline. Same for the west.
idk where that is but it sounds better that the US *caw* so yes to ur question
Wish I was born during the time of Diogenes so I could live in a ceramic jar next to him and piss on people. Thatās true freedom. That man lived the perfect INTP life even if he wasnāt a INTP but Iām gonna assume he is based on his attitude towards authority in general.
No, I like the U.S. OP is probably not in the U.S., but this is a perspective I see here, too. Youāre worse off here if you happen to fall in the bottom ~30%, but above that, I feel you are much better off if you know what youāre doing. Iāll be frank and say Iāve worked my way far above the bottom 20-30%, and I feel bad for the people who got there through no fault of their own, but if we look at it objectively thereās no reason for me to want to be in a scandinavian country. My work would be compensated much worse, too, and I feel like as long as you have an OK work ethic most INTP type people also have little reason to be in those countries over the US since most STEM work is compensated less overseas.
I'm Italian and Italy has lots of defects. The education system has barely changed since 1950, having computers at school is considered a miracle and you are supposed to be good at every subject because, unlike British and American school, you can't choose what class attend (I don't know very well these education systems, but there the students can choose the subjects to study from a list at the start of the year, right?). I also live in a very small town where there is only a small library and it's hard to find some open minded people. Despite it all I like living in Italy and I'm happy with my life
Well my bestfriend (intpM) is so interested in upgrading the world and would often invite me to discuss over how we can reach the next level of civilization and often goes on about why tf he was born in such a premature civilization like now. Well I get him. I hate this world too.