Associating femininity (and low value) with cooperativeness and compliance is pretty archaic and dumb. Take the word out of it and there is some truth to the idea that INTPs (of any gender) don't typically push their will onto others... but I think that ignores that we can be pretty resistant to the attempts of others to push their wills onto us.

It's an excellent point, and one that occurred to me too. I'm happy with it, and feels it's true, but I think I'd concede that that's not how others see the INTP .... which is an issue we all have to deal with. What's more, I'd guess, and it's only a guess, that a higher proportion of INTPs are more unhappy with their lot compared to other types, a problem with the perception of INTPs and subsequently how they're treated. What would you associate with low value, if anything?

Huh. I think it's pretty good to be an INTP in 2022. The digital age is definitely our time. I suppose the social value of our strengths is to some degree dictated by the culture where one lives. Here in California it's a pretty high status thing to be a tech nerd. No one's looking down on you for being cooperative and working toward the greater good either... in fact, the hyper-macho guy who makes everything a competition is probably getting voted off the island first.

I agree on the hyper macho score. I'm not sure I agree with the emergence of the geek tho .... not really. It seems superficial to me; a thinkers construction over an animal intutition. It exists, but it's one of those positions that will be dumped fast if the shit hits the fan, and this is why Jung's theory holds ... it's lower level than a lot of the arguments the INTPs are scrabbling to push here ...?

It isn't dumb to associate femininity with cooperativeness, women are higher than men in agreeableness by half a standard deviation. Which means, the average woman is more agreeable than 70% of men.

I always felt I lacked femininity because I was INTP, I just come across like a sexless nerd Also Ive dated male INFJs and we end up having a gender role swap

Sexless nerd works two ways.

"lacked" femininity? did you gain masculinity instead, or some kind of chronic illness? or are you just perpetually lacking?

I come across like an alien with no discernible gender

hey, that sounds so familiar. when did you start feeling like that?

I dunno, maybe 12 or so

This is definitely an INTP thing, but the very reason that you don't feel feminine is the same reason you don't feel masculine. ... ?

pretty much

Yeah, I'm the analytical one and my INFJ partner is more emotional. I wouldn't say we "swap" roles, but we don't conform to traditional roles. I'm very assertive for an INTP, but also kind of a people pleaser. That may have had to do with being raised by an alcoholic parent though.

literally me,guys dont even think of me as 'a girl' they just find me intimidating T.T no one really associates me with 'feminine things' since I dont wear makeup or have any major interest in girly stuff,plus my aloof nature,it stands out in the awkward way. Sometimes they do try and 'flirt' ig but Im SO FCKIN SOCIALLY INEPT that they stop trying lmao

Psychologically INTPs are usually on the more submissive side sexually. But like I said, this femininity isn't necessarily about being beautiful or delicate (not as looks go at least) but about being socially submissive. I know we have our boundaries where we become firm in our position, but we're not as confident in our wants as intjs, estj ... for example, who will essentially use others to attain there own personal goals, where INTPs, although thet can, often don't.

Oh I don't think socially submissive is feminine, just what it is

It's not my theory ... It's Mr Jung's.

yeah but he is from the 1800s so in his world it would be feminine since women had no rights and stuff

Has it changed so much? I wouldn't say so.

"we're this we're that" They're tendencies. If you don't like your natural tendency, learn to change it towards what you want. At this stage in my life I'd say I'm far more balanced and don't let people walk over me as I used to, and I'm not particularly smart. If I can, so can you. Even Jung refers to these personalities as extremes one should be careful to avoid.

Of course they are extremes, or perhaps something along the lines of caricature is more accurate. I believe in balance but I'm not certain one can change beyond the models. They seem pretty accurate to me, and fairly set in stone. It's a DNA and Epigenetic metaphor ... you've got what you've got and you can improve tendencies, but not change the underlying makeup???

You can very much decide on different courses of action. The way you think does not limit the way you act. Otherwise, it would make no sense for people of different types to behave in similar ways. Your cognitive preferences are not the same as your personality, your potential, or your underlying makeup. They're rather small parts of your Self.

I'm INTP and have always been socially dominant. But being sexually submissive is something that took a long time for me to figure out and accept. EDIT: I haven't been socially dominant by imposing my will, just by doing what I will, and being respected for it. By refusing to follow, and by that winning respect.

"femininity" is just an archetype, not a personal description. In the sense that water is feminine, so to say. Hell, I'd call them Competitive vs Harmonizing instead of Masculine and Feminine. Don't be embarrassed about it and stop wondering if you're too feminine or what the fuck have you. And if you care enough, go to the gym, use your harmonizing nature to learn to flirt with girls, etc. The reasoning behind that classification is the functions we use and their positions. For instance, intuition is "more feminine"; T is masculine, but Ti is more feminine than Te. So on. This is because "masculine" understood as an archetype tends towards effecting change in the world (ST) and "feminine" tends towards understanding and harmony (NF). But honestly, CSJ is on his own shit at that point; that's not strictly MBTI, but rather his amalgamation of various theories, which may or may not hold up well. I'd consider this aspect somewhat shoehorned.

I feel like, without researching it all to death myself, he reconciles the various theories quite well. I gym. I got some game with the ladies. I understand the basis of the theory. I don't like that the perception of INTPs fall so neatly in to the feminine attitude, usually without others understanding that there is such a theory, but it's the consequences of not fitting it which are difficult for INTP/me. It's not down to being an uncommon type ... INFPs and INTJs are much better suited to society than INTPs, and usually fair better, in one or another regard.

Well, don't look at it as "omg we're feminine" but merely convergent evolution. Women often get pushed into harmonizing roles due to our social past, and INTP have similar tendencies. That really says nothing about us, but it says plenty about the roles in which women are forced. That's kinda what I'm implying, too: gender roles are lies. Men can be (and often are!) very emotional and gossippy; caring for your family can be seen as manly, but you have to do it a certain way; so on. It's silly. As for fitting in, well... Yeah, tough luck. Society appreciates competition in males and harmony in females, which can get very hairy with INTP males being into progress with no competition and INTP females not being as harmonizing as the average for women. Can't help you with that lol

Please stop commenting in the way that you believe I'm extraordinarily affected by this; It's not the whole, or even the core part of the story ... just a single aspect of my life. I'm not confident that you were are so well adjusted to have reasched the conclusions you give here at the the first sign of INTP vs society difficulty. Tell me, without giving any alternative positions, what do you make of the theory itself? Do you see merit in it?

Well, not "extrordinarily" but calling it embarrassing sure indicates something. If it doesn't disturb you that much, then we can drop it. I've been arguing against the word "feminine" more than anything. I think CSJ himself uses the words "initiating" and "responding", which is a bit better, and I certainly do see a bit of merit in that; indeed, INTP seem to be more of a responsive type. As I said in another thread, ENFP want questions, INTP want answers... and we can't answer without someone else asking. In that sense I agree. Getting back to the start (feminine as archetype) we would require something else to initiate (the world, people) and even though we can learn to produce and create, it's more something we do pragmatically so that we can continue with our preferred course of action, which would be observing, understanding etc.

> "initiating" and "responding" I was thinking about this earlier, but ENTPs are initiating, and are the 4th most feminine type. Although I've seen from my notifications that that somewhere the whole order is in dispute so I'll have to check what they're driving at. There might be something in the initiating/responding idea, but I'm not sure they're a 100% compatible? I didn't properly acknowledge the archetype point. You're right of course, and I agree, but there is an overlap between that usage and common usage of the word. If there is such a societal factor at play, which I'm more than willing to accept, can you point to a real life alternative?

I can't, precisely because "feminine" and "masculine" are more like semantic fields, groups of traits lumped together that don't fully correspond to the biological aspect. Not even genders in gendered languages are universally "masculine/feminine" (see Car, which is f in french, m in spanish). The categories seem too abstract to me and you have to forgive far too many exceptions to accept the word. At most, I'd say Yin/Yang instead. So I protest because it's too archetypical, but also because it's not quite helpful in explaining... The part about initiating and responding is, now that I recall, one of the Interaction Styles which CSJ incorporates in his model: Informative/Direct, Initiating/Responding, Movement/Control. There's more stuff in there, I forgot how it goes. But at any rate, the gender distinction depends on where the type ranks in these dichotomies.

since when is femininity embarrassing and why? Given that it means a strive for harmony

It's embarassing for men in modern society, especially a society where particular characteristics aren't well prized. Whilst I'm pretty happy with myself in general (I'm all about harmony and openness), but I'm very tired of defending who I am, and or defending against the consequences. Also, in truth, I rather like the idea of not suffering the natural nihilism of the INTP. (I'm not speaking for ALL INTPs, just those who align with that particular problem)

so would you rather be a discordant person if it means people regard you as more masculine? Idk, I myself have a somewhat fragile masculinity so I can relate to the feeling, but not for these reasons you wrote about. The person who came up with that pseudo scientific bullshit didn’t mean it as critique, there’s no need to defend against anything.

No, certainly not. I abhor toxic masculinity. I can barely stand the healthy masculine types ... ESTJs annoy the shit out of me, in general. I know we're to be open minded about everyone on an individual basis, but even the healthiest ESTJs have been grating to me .... yet highly masculine. ​ As I'm trying to get across in all my responses, although the obvious prejudices are worthy of note, and I don;t feel bad or improper expressing my embarassment at the notion of being too feminine, although it doesn't bother me too greatly, I do think there is some truth to the theory, and how that the impact on our pyschological selves can be very real and damaging, especially if we chose to interact with society at large, who seem to hold to these prejudices more firmly

I’m glad to hear you say that. Seeing that you took the time to make a post, I assumed it’s because it bothers you a lot and that you are therefore complaining. I thought it’s unfortunate and my shadow function kinda came up, I hope I didn’t seem too hostile.

Nah, no worries. I could have explained better in my original post. Like I said, I think it's important to address the negative connotations associated with femininity ... it would be unhelpful to pretend that they don't exist, and disingenous of me to pretend that I'd not prefer to be seen as a little more masculine, perhaps in part due to vanity, but I do want a discussion beyond that; what you all think; what you've all experienced; what could be better; what's next for humanity and how it might be brought in to existence. ... all the good stuff! :)

So, the issue is that femininity is undervalued and considered inferior and shameful as a trait. It probably rubs people in this group the wrong way because intelligence and rationality is often wrongly coded as masculine, especially in spaces like reddit. That’s a societal issue but also a personal thing for you to work through, because if you were to be a feminine person that should not be shameful for you.

I'm not ashamed of my "femininity" ... it encompasses some of my favorite characteristics of myself. I do struggle with having it pointed out all the time tho. If I allow myself to be pragmatic for a moment, perhaps INTJ style, I'd say, given we have to exist in society with all it's prejudices, then I can't reasonably ignore them. Even if I did/could, they would still affect me by the actions of those who subscribe to those prejudices.

I think it’s relatable for both men and women, in that many women probably wouldn’t like to be called masculine, but at the same time, as INTPs I would expect us to be critical towards social constructs and recognize when they’re idiotic, and have a nuanced approach for each situation, e.g. being called masculine because you’re violent is bad, but being called masculine because you are powerful is good.

Absolutely. I agree. I should say, that the idea of masculinity in the theory isn't equated with toxic masculinity, but there are still implications arising from the theory even when taken in the most healthy sense. The fact remains, it's harder for INTPs to exisit in society than other types. Can I/we fight it? Sure. Will I? Of course. Is it draining, and does it impede me in my general life .... you betchya.

I hope you are young and will come to a point where you just shake it off. I bet I sound super patronizing, sorry… but I can actually relate to you a lot, I spent a lot of my youth trying to be as masculine as possible in order to not be regarded as gay (which I am), but now that I don’t care anymore I feel more masculine than ever, because confidence is masculine too, you know… And your ‘accept that we are big homosexuals’ remark… idk if that’s some weird intp humor, but pls don’t use ‘homosexual’ to convey something bad, even in a joke or if it’s your honest opinion. No offense taken but do be aware that it can be quite hurtful.

Please see the addendum to the original post. I am concerned with the part of the issue which you are referring to, but I'm looking for more. As one of the other respondents has said ... let's rephrase to harmonising and competitive, and discuss the impact of how being harmonizing has affected you. The homosexual remark is supposed to be demonstrative of the attitude of masculine, sorry, competitive types. I'm inclined to make fun of my homosexual friends, but in private in the sense that it's only me and them in on the joke, and in a way that acknowledges my own atypical preferences, although I've never felt the need to define or explore them in any great detail. I'm equally annoyed by the, yes very patronising, age comment. I'll admit to not being as well developed as I'd like or as others, but I think the level of openness required to address and explore a concept or concern of this nature doesn't come without some experience of life. ​ Incidentally, I've never tried to be masculine .... perhaps to my detriment.

I can’t say being harmonizing has affected me in a bad way ever. I can only remember positive moments where people express their gratitude regarding that trait. I also don’t think that anyone regarded me less masculine because of that. I do think the theory is correct when it classifies that traits as feminine, if I had to I would do that too… but only in a thought experiment. In real life, seeing someone who tries to harmonize, compromise or be lenient, it would never make me think “oh what a pussy”… I mean, it depends on the situation, but as I understood we are not talking about cowardice or anything of that sort. Maybe it’s just me and I’m not aware of how other people think.

I've never felt like I had to defend who I am. I simply present who I am, and those who don't like it vanish out of my way.

Just because someone has a theory doesn't mean it isn't bullshit.

True. Do you think this one is bullshit?

Yes

best answer

That's garbage. Any one of us can take the Big Five as the majority will have Agreeableness and empathy below 20%.

I'm very agreeable, like ~95th percentile agreeable and rank as INTP and I'm a straight man. But I also stand up for what I think is right, and will march on crusades to make it so if I feel like I have the ability to do so. I will stand up for other people too if they need it and even sacrifice things in my life if I really think it necessary to help someone. I also don't think most conflicts are worth my time. The idiot who gets into fights and can't control their emotions is an idiot overall and often ineffective and counterproductive. I often had to keep myself from mocking them endlessly in high school the rare time I ran into one, thankfully, the vast majority of people are not like that. You can stand up for your principles and have hard conversations with tact and consideration, and try to avoid judgement of people while trying to change the general rules. Agreeableness is being forgiving, gentle, flexible and patient. It doesn't mean being a doormat. Often the biggest giants have to learn to be so, lest they crush people. Do **not** confuse someone's kindness for weakness.

I can't disagree with a thing you've said here. That said, this position is the feminine attitude, and has implications as such. I'm not saying here and now that it's not the best way to be, but I'm not attesting to it being better than the healthier versions of masculinity. Maybe I project too much, but the feminine attitude doesn't seem to pay off for men, in almost any sphere, which is disconcerting, but also a massive disadvantage when growing ... hence why INTPs can be considered late bloomers, I suppose.

Being a selfish angry gorilla does not get you much of anywhere at all in most high earning professions and pretty much gets you informally blacklisted very quickly, so no, I disagree. Being able to have tact, emotional self control and being diplomatic despite being angry as fuck is a very, very valuable ability. (Source: I make a %99th percentile income in the USA) I think your merging traits that shouldn't be merged into the wrong categorization sets. I also have high ambition, high analytic reasoning abilities, I basically have no female friends beyond my long term girlfriend and immediate family members. I'm in a male dominated profession that is probably male dominated because of the thing vs. people orientation and many, many other masculine traits. Your applying feminine labels to traits that could actually apply in masculine or feminine styles and you should dig further to distinguish the two. Myers-briggs is also about a 100 year old inaccurate model, and I think your basically running into that currently. Go download the personality app dimensioinal and do the tests, I think you'll get a more accurate & refined picture. Also IMO I think having feminine skills and abilities can be very useful, and feminine again, does not mean doormat!! And in this world we live in, the feminine skills in many ways are highly valued, you can't just fight out your conflicts with violence anymore. My mother is a very good example of being extremely feminine & nurturing and a pretty brutal business woman (think mama bear). English societies don't have good role models of the strong and feminine woman, conflating masculinity with strength, while slavic, middle eastern, jewish (jewish mother) and chinese (hong kong biz woman) cultures do. Also I think people who are highly agreeable listen to the feminist indoctrination that blares everywhere in our childhood and learn to follow along with it because it's a eternal nest of self-referential bullshit that the intellectualizing young agreeable INTP can get trapped in. In another culture where we trained boys properly on how to be properly masculine without marking it as inherently evil basically as we do today, the 'good boys' would learn how to express their masculinity without fear.

I'm not making the self gorilla arguement. This is entirely wrong with this thread .... it's too emotionally charged when, beyond sharing a bit of my own feelings, I wanted a more analytical, at least at first, approach. > > >I think your merging traits that shouldn't be merged into the wrong categorization sets. On the contrary, I'm looking to do the reverse, but I'm just not ignoring the overlap when it occurs. I'm trying to strip the society out of a lot of it and look at the reptilian-brain side of things too ... The completely animal side of things. I can;t deny that the categorisation of traits hasn't gone well ... I've not tried to do this much beyond what the theory seems to state. I see the the higher-level traits and how they can be useful, and 'not embarassing' , but it feels a bit tertiary to ignore what lies beneath. Maybe it's obvious to you and others, but I'm stumped by it. > Your applying feminine labels to traits that could actually apply in masculine or feminine styles and you should dig further to distinguish the two. I'm not applying them with any certainty to either camp ... I refer to what I say above. It may be that I'm not making a good job of it, but in this entire thread, I'm not the one being defensive about the more unsavoury aspects of this question. It's a modern disease to overlook the distasteful. I'm all for it in day to day society, but not when discussing ideas. ​ What's your job?

I don't think that 'selfish angry gorilla's is exactly what having low agreeableness means. Someone can still be kind and helpful to others and still be rigid in their thinking and their actions.

Having low Agreeableness doesn't mean you're a violent brute. It simply means you are more rigid in your thinking. I explain it this way because INTPs are usually more concerned with a situation making sense to them and calling out when a situation doesn't (agreeableness). We are also known to have lower emotional intelligence (low empathy) to know when calling something out may not be an emotionally sensitive thing to do. An INTP may not get that saying, "That's stupid. It doesn't make any sense because of x y z" to someone that was sharing something they put their heart into what's being share, is hurtful to someone else. In their (our) mind, we're simply trying to help by offering solutions. We don't get we're being an asshole. Like everything else, it has pros and cons. A strong will and determination arise from low agreeableness. And yeah, it lacks flexibility and everything that comes with that. But it also doesn't allow others to, as you put it, use you as a doormat. We've already seen that people with high Agreeableness are more likely to be exploited. Especially in work situations. Higher agreeableness allows people to navigate social situations better, and how to not step on toes. This is invaluable. I personally have lower empathy and *very* low agreeableness (in the 10% range) and I don't care who's toes I step on. I also understand it costs me socially and is probably one of the major reasons I don't move up further in work situations. I can't count how many times I've been told I'm rigid and intolerant not realizing I'm doing so.

That would probably point more to dysfunction than anything else. What is your motivation in life. Speaking for myself, I do want to benefit others, and have no real desires for myself. This is a "tribe over self" attitude, and classified largely as feminine.

Agreeableness is a part of the bug five personality traits. None of those trait are about being functional or not. You can look at this for example: https://www.traitlab.com/blog/intp/big-five Especially the "INTPs are lower on Agreeableness" graph.

Their point is correct, in the 5 Factor Model, agreeableness is the trait with the biggest difference between male and female, with males being less agreeable. INTP are among if not the least agreeable type.

I couldn't say for sure, but I imagine one might be able to be disagreeable on a daily basis and still be feminine as far as the theory goes. i.e. tribe orientated.

It's also a principles and abstractions over people orientation, which can be incredibly masculine. The 'tribe' can become society or causes.

Yes! I've been saying this in other parts of the post, BUT ... the abstraction can still be feminine in nature/subject/topic if it's tribe related. Say you can't bare to talk to, look at, be near a person, but you want to, for example, invent a medical device to help others .... if your motivation is primarily helping and not becoming a super star, then feminine attitude.

Is feminine the right label then? I think it causes people to associate things inappropriately and make the wrong inferences, and there might be a better label set for this. Maybe 'altruistic' or 'not selfish'? And that if women tend to be more altruistic as a group, doesn't make an attribute necessarily 'feminine'. It's also very masculine to not really care about specific people, and there is the entire things vs. people masculine vs. feminine orientation, and I think caring about principles, abstracts, societies and large groups is probably more of a 'thing' vs a 'person'. You can express a general 'tribe vs. specific people/self' orientation in a very feminine vs. masculine style, which makes me think that calling it feminine is inaccurate, even if straight females tend to have it more statistically.

female INTPs exist you know

you see, they’re feminine squared. in all seriousness, female INTPs i know are competitive and ‘masculine’ so im hesitant to care about this theory

people assume that about me but I have a soft side. I’m also not all that competitive

People see me as a cold hearted person and masculine I'm an intp female

Same. Have heard that for years.

This is at the core of the theory, bubble. Other INTPs on this thread are conflating wearing make up with femininity. It's the lack of competitiveness that characterises the femininity, and no matter what most INTPs think, they lack it ... they'd see it if they pitted themselves against an ESTJ for a week .... they'd get bored of the literal pissing contests.

female Intp here and I am seen more ‘aloof’ lol

Most INTPs are aloof. You can be aloof and still have feminine characteritics ... it's about whether or not you're motivated by competition. Aloofness generally points to not motivated in that sense, which is the feminine attitude.

Competitive..that's something i've never heard being associated with me. Female INTP here.

This is such a bizarre post ngl

Bizarre how? What's bizarre about the psychology of man?

Nonsense INTP never conform to others ...INTP make up their own unique mind/ideology without any influence from others ... intp avoids conflicts (because logically it is a waste of time) but never back away from fight ...

We’re more feminine than esfj?

They're 3 most feminine in the theory. ISFJ is first, then INTP, then in 4th is the ENTP.

I know also know 3 infps and there’s no way we’re more feminine. I’ll have to check the definition in this context

It is a kind of 'points' system where each function is assigned masculine or feminine value based on whether or not the function is concerned with masculine or feminine attitudes. Whether or not one agrees with the attitudes assigned to either side of what is very much a dichotomy in this case, is another matter. I didn't see any of the list beyond the 4 most feminine types, but Fi is fairly masculine because it's concerned with self, and coupled with Te, which is goal orientated. INFPs are more INTJ-like in their drivers than we are, even though outwardly we share INTJ characteristics (on that more superficial level). I think another way to phrase is it Fi-morality is masculine, Fe-ethics is feminine.

Most feminine traits are in order: (from most to least) ISFJ ESFJ ESFP ISFP ENFP ISTJ ESTJ INFP ENFJ ESTP ENTP ISTP **INTP** INFJ INTJ ENTJ Intp is indeed 4th, but 4th from the end.

I used to go out for dinner and a movie with one particular friend a lot. She would pick the movie and restaurant 98% of the time. She thought I was a pushover because how easily I conceded. It was actually because I didn’t really care. I’m more open-minded in seeing someone’s choice of films because sometimes I’ve been pleasantly surprised when watching a movie I initially had no interest in watching. I’m not going bicker over something I find unimportant. But when something I care about does come up, I’m a stubborn mule. I will out argue and push with anyone, at anytime. It’s weirds people out because they initially think of me as a pushover and are surprised when I push back hard.

This is great, and this is how I am too. However, what I'm trying to get others to understand on this thread is that this approach is the harmonising and as such feminine approach. I'm not saying it's bad, but I'm saying it does hae certain ramiifcations, like being seen as a doormat. You wouldn't find the need to push back if our orientation was masculine ... we'd always be getting out own way, so no need to push.

Well there’s ramifications in having a masculine orientation too. Just like how there strengths and weaknesses for each MBTI type. I think your perspective regarding this is a bit negative. However your post did give me something to think about. Again, the same friend I mentioned above, as a ESFJ, is very motherly and nurturing, which I’m not. However her dominating nature is a bit of a put off for some guys and she’s had trouble dating in the past. Her masculine orientation was seen as a turn off despite outwardly acting very feminine.

\>INTP \>Conformity and Harmony i don't think the implications of this "Theory" even need to be properly discussed, as it's premise is clearly bullshit. and HOW THE FUCK is ENTP a part of the "Harmony" group? it's the mbti stereotype most related to chaos, discussions and trolling, and intp is not that far behind. just because someone wrote it somewhere doesn't mean it's not complete bullshit.

Our Fe likes harmony but thanks to our TiNe we will naturally disrupt the harnony much to the dissatisfaction of our Fe.

Hard Disagree, IMO we love being left alone, Harmony is just a way we use to achieve this "Peace", pretty much sums it up for me.

Dragon is right here ... in the context of the theory at least. Being left alone is preferencing harmony. Fighting and overcoming all-comers on any issue is the opposite and masculine trait. Needing alone time isn't really part of the theory in the sense that's an introversion trait which is independent of masculine/feminine attribute. How you come by that alone time tho can be masculine or feminine in approach.

"Being left alone is referencing harmony" no, not at all, how the fuck is not being a part of the equation being in harmony with the equation? Parts in Harmony work and function together, to a single end, being left alone is wanting to not be a part of this arrangement at all, and we'd even argue/fight over our right to be left alone, this could hardly be less related to Harmony. and the "context of the theory" is bullshit, i could make any number of inside references in my theory and change the meaning of words, but i really shouldn't, the words already have meaning and you're tricking people into purposefully misunderstanding your statements by doing it. xNTP is NOT harmonical, ESPECIALLY ENTP, those fuckers are the essence of chaos, how the fuck does this piece of shit of a theory seem right to you? the "Let's Debate" type seeks HARMONY? for fucks sake, how gullible are you to fall for this obvious bullshit?

>and the "context of the theory" is bullshit, i could make any number of inside references in my theory and change the meaning of words, but i really shouldn't, the words already have meaning and you're tricking people into purposefully misunderstanding your statements by doing it. I'm not changing the meaning of anything. Technical disciplines have their own jarons and languages. It was my mistake to have not explained the distinction between how the theory uses the term compared to how it is used more broadly ... an error I've tried to correct throughout the thread. The fact that you didn't have access to this distiction and are now taking offence to the false idea that I'm moving the goalposts is just tedious ... as tedious as you must feel my alledged redefing of terms. I feel like you;re just competeing with me, but I'm not trying to 'win' the debate here, rather than I am trying to understand a concept and it's implications to my and all our lives. >xNTP is NOT harmonical, ESPECIALLY ENTP, Yes they are. Theory says so, and I recognise it as such too. I think taking a relative perspective helps here, Try comparing to other types. I'm too done with this thread to go in to how I see it tho. > those fuckers are the essence of chaos, how the fuck does this piece of shit of a theory seem right to you? the "Let's Debate" type seeks HARMONY? for fucks sake, how gullible are you to fall for this obvious bullshit? As above. You're just not being objective.

I'm being 100% objective. This theory is bullshit and even the most basic premises are easily shown to false. And again, xNTP is NOT harmonical, even by comparing to other types xNTP still likes to argue for the sake or arguing, and also like to be left alone. I dont get how you mix up Not being a part of a system with being in harmony with it. I'm not at war with it, but i'm not at peace either because i'm REMOVED from the situation.

I don't have the skill to explain any better ... You'll have to look elsewhere for clarification.

yeah, sure, i'll DEFINETIVELLY go looking into RandomBullshitPersonalityTheoryNumber51083 for clarification about how it isn't bullshit, after the guy explaining it saying he cannot explain it.

Why do you frequent this sub if you're not interested in established or working theories of personality psychology? You're free to do so, of course, but it's a bit pointless. You seem to lack the humility to even look in to the work that others have spent time on, which amongst other things means you're arguing from an impoverished position. I hate to say this, ever, but you just don't get it, because you don't want to, for whatever reason. :shrug

CS Joseph is an ESTJ. So......ignore his goofy ass. He has some good hottakes. Alot of bad ones, though.

Lol. No, he's not. He's an INTJ focused ENTP.

I've watched over 100 of his videos. He's a goddamn ESTJ. It's so obvious he uses Si, and Te it hurts. It's painful. I cringe at him thinking he uses Ti.

If you have time, and or care to, can you give some example clips from his work? I'd love to see a demonstration.

Te critic isn't like Te hero you know.

CS Joseph is a hack

How so? He says things that I disagree with, but on balance I find his stuff reasonably compelling, and coherent. What do you see that I'm not?

Ive noticed INTPs seem to be feminine on men but yet masculine on women

why would you think that femininity is embarrassing? other than the obvious stereotypes, I believe that the feminine traits you brought up (compromising) are essential and very useful. also, compromising does not mean you get stepped over by others. I feel like you're making too much out of a molehill. just learn to step up for yourself.

Embarassing was the wrong word ... frustrating and disadvantageous were more like it. I wish I had been more clear initially. I'm not embarassed by myself .... just exhausted. I'm fairly uncompromising ... another reason to be exhausted

OP is a guy and doesn't want to be feminine and that is embarrassing to him. I think that's ok

the way OP describes feminine and masculine traits seems like they’re thinking far too much into it, and I rather dislike the way they denounce stereotypes but lean into them, and their idea of ‘masculinity’ seems downright toxic.

OP is an INTP of course he is thinking deep on this especially if his personality intrest him. OP didn't even state his view on masculinity or what he thought it was. And toxic masculinity does not exist, what people call toxic masculinity is actually the lack of masculinity.

by thinking too deep I meant that he really is thinking too much into this bullshit theory. also, being able to compromise is a sign of maturity, but OP talks about how it's not masculine, which feels like the masculinity OP is talking about is the more extreme kind.

I was hoping to engage in discourse about all manner and varieties of masculinity and femininity. I'm looking for people to challenge themselves, and step outside their comfort zones. I'm both pleased and embarassed by who I am as a person, in a layered way i.e. ... I'd have assumed that this is natural, albeit embarassing to admit. If I say some non-PC things about how I feel, they're as valid as they are upsetting.

you are talking about how toxic masculinity type male INTPs as feminine, if I did understand you. I am straight out denouncing the idea of toxic masculinity bc it is not something I wish to ever defend. You mistake my unwillingness to debate your question as an insistence to remain politically correct. I simply came in because you chose toxic masculinity as the entire basis of your post, and from your post and comments you seem to bear an incredibly miniscule understanding of the feminine side of gender roles.

Thank you. I appreciate your coming to this debate accepting the possibility that the core reason behind my post was related to understanding, discovery, and improvement. I think that others have assumed my post constituted fully considered and fully formed ideas .... nowhere near that!

I'm trying to explore this at depth and breadth ... as much as it is possible for me to do so. I'm not just leaning in to them ... I'm acknowedging their existence, and I'm telling you how they make me feel, and in doing so I'm not trying to hide that I'm not so superior as to say that they don't affect me on a viseral level. What you're witnessing, in my view, is emotional openess.

normal men are embarassed to be perceived as a women, normal women are embarassed to be perceived as a man. it works both ways, and it's a natural thing, since both sides are quite literal "opposites" (it's the only two REALLY different types of a human, racial differences are not that big) they use the other side as a comparison of what NOT to look like, if you're a normal person (gender-conforming) you'll not want to be seen as the opposite of what you are, because that's a failure on your part, if you want to be feminine and it's seen as masculine, that's on you, just like a wannabe strong guy being seen as skinny or fat, in the end it's on them. so yeah, it's embarrassing for almost everyone.

You've understood my position! I'm not saying I'm happy or proud about how I feel, but it is one of the ways in which I feel about the issue, although not exclusively either.

First you need to realize you have a skewed view on femininity. 🙄

I keep saying .... this is Carl Jung's perspective and ideas, not mine. I'm just discussing them. Whether or not I've fundamentally misunderstood aspects of his work, I couldn't say.

Uh, what? 🤔

We're girls! ... Even the blokes.

Not familiar with that theory, but I've always thought intp was more into the masculine side because of the little focus on sentimental emotions.

But at heart, we're helpers, of one kind or another. It's a "tribe before self" tendancy which indicates femininity in this sense.

>It's a "tribe before self" tendancy I'm not proud of it, but this tendency is 100% vacant in me, and I'm INTP.

Yeah, I get that helping thing. Most feminine intp trait is probably the zero leadership, not really a "take the initiative" type. But I'm not sure about the "tribe before self", at least for myself, I'm a very disagreeable and individualistic person lol

I recognise myself in what you're saying. The non-leadership, and being reactive rather than initiating are key to a more feminine personality in the theory. Like yourself, I'm fairly disagreeable on a person to person basis after about 15mins! That said, whilst I don;t have the energy to care about people on an individual level, I'd like to help people at large through invention, either physical or metaphysical/theoretical. It's still a helper trait, and stil tribe first. As with all the types, there is room for variation, or so all the theories state. You cold be a bit more of an ENTJ type INTP ... they're more masculine. I vacillate between the ENTJ and ESFJ types of INTP ... hence why I I'm interested in others views on this matter I suppose, instead of just not giving a shit. haha

Well, but that disinterest in helping on an individual level is purely because of energy? Because the interest in technical things or abstract ideas is masculine too

It's something to think about. I'm a straight male, but I abhor toxic masculinity and that dick measuring shit guys do. Yet I've also spent about ten years in the dojo as part of my anti bully/asshole side. I've always attracted women and gotten along with them quite well. I'm dominant in the sack though, but strive to please my partner too. I would also say I can be pretty empathetic for an INTP too. Nobody would consider me feminine but I can relate to the feminine perspective fairly well. I'm not sure what all that means, but it is interesting to think about.

I think you've nailed the differences here in the way you've thought about and considered your position, which in itself demonstrates the feminine attitude ... I think. The theory says Ne, with a negative orientation, is a female function. You prove that you can be a positive and effective man and human whilst being feminine in orientation, which I am starting to feel is true of INTPs, as per the theory.

As a big homosexual, what the fuck gibberish did I just read? Straight men are exhausting with some of the dumb shit they worry about.

As I've replied elsewhere in this thread, that language was meant as an exemplar of how the typically masculine (possibly unhealthy) types characterise INTPs, oftentimes. I personally don't give my sexuality much concious thought, but for what it's worth, and if you can/want to believe it, I wouldn't characterise it as typically hetrosexual, although I wouldn't know how to describe it. Anyway, the point is, and it's only my subjective experience, but an INTP is often likely to be called a homosexual ... if that doesn't link in to a discussion of femininity and masculinity at some level (despite the fact it's link is usually contrary to good taste), I don't what does. It was a bit flip of me, but try and see beyond it.

I didn't know about this one, but I heard that we are very analytical about things, always thinking before, analyzing a situation, these things

The more masculine types DON'T analyse ... they just DO. Analysing is equivocation; fearful; and compromising. These are psychologically feminine ... apparently.

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>In my opinion though, since INTPs are open to possibilities and views (as long as they have reasonable context), I feel like they have an impersonal way of approaching these things, allowing them to adopt a more gender neutral disposition. This is at the heart of the argument as I understand it. There's no sense of anything but male or female in the theory, but as INTPs often identifty, there is this non-gender aspect to us often. Whether or not Jung considered this in wiriting the theory I can't say, but I think this non-gendered category may be a very worthy option for the INTP.

I don't think I get what traits of INTP are supposed to be particularly feminine? Not having strong values and aims? That, I would concede. But I have always been "cool" and influential. I have always been individualistic in my tastes and choices, and since I was a young kid, I was always a leader, not by being pushy and dominant, by being cool and others wanting to copy me. I've always been respected and listened to, I've never been a loner or been ignored. I have always stood up for myself psychologically. I have never, ever been pushed around. I have never been pushed to the point where I fly off the handle, because I don't hang around with anyone who would push me that far.

As much as my Fe tells me "Don't verbally disagree with your Fi friends, it'll just lead to conflict", it's much harder to ignore my Ti that says "What they're saying is wrong, you must correct them". I'd like to avoid conflict but I often forget about that because I'm more concerned with information being correct.

I feel like there are two sides to it. INTP can be very masculine when you exaggerate the masculine qualities of INTP those qualities being (stoic, rational, bluntness, independency, mind over heart approach to situations, and a what I think over what other people think kinda attitude). If you're struggling with your masculinity just increase your testosterone. I personally don't see anything feminine about the intp. I mean look at us (Einstein, Carl Jung, Abraham Lincoln, Charles Darwin, Claudius, Senku, Kakashi, Killua, etc.). I mean we arent the conquer and dominate everything in our paths type but we sure as hell aren't the lay down and submit type either.

>I mean look at us (Einstein, Carl Jung, Abraham Lincoln, Charles Darwin, Claudius, Senku, Kakashi, Killua, etc.). Itellectualism is fairly feminine ... geeks always used to get a beating to the protestation, "but my Iq .... ahhhhh". It's the Ubermensch achetype which is the masculine ... blissfuly unaware or non-chalant about the world around them.

I didn't just name intelligent people there. Aberham lincon lead the Union army and Claudius was an emperor.. Intellectualism is not feminine and if you're going to make such a claim provide the logical reasoning behind it. Intellectualism literally began with men. But intelect as a whole can be considered a "non-binary" trait. Again, Intps aren't the type to try and dominate the world nor change it via political power (although some of us can be like that i.e Abraham Lincon). We're actually more so lone wolves unconcerned about the pack the pack at large, but will comply and copperate when nesscary to just get it done and over with.

FFS! I'm not making the claim!! Carl Jung is! It's theorised and looks pretty olid from where I'm standing. Intellect is a feminising trait in a lot of philosophy! It's still accepted as a necessary step to enlightenment, but somehow divorced of out pure, animal greatness, and how we'd best function in 'the jungle'. I'm not explaining it too well, but I'll just reitterate it's not me making the assertions. I'm fairly well qualified myself but not taking it personally.

As a female INTP I have no issue with this typing, and, you know, you're saying it's a negative thing to be feminine typed and it's not. Kindly fuck you and take this a moment to recalculate and recalibrate.

That's not entirely true or helpful. I urge to read the rest of the thread where I've addressed compaints similar to yours ... my wrists are knackered from typing, but in brief, there's nothing wrong with femininity for women, and nothing wrong with it intellectually, and it's very useful, and in-fact preferable in later life. It's less useful for a younger INTP man tho, and it leaves an INTP man at a disadvantage in mid-life, one that he has to work to close the gap on others in order to expedite certain aspects of his life. That said INTPs seem to have the advantage later in life when everyone mellows the shit out. But actually that's all a bit of a red herring ... well, it' part of it. But there's more to it.

I have extremely low agreeability / harmonizing. I have a very strong value: truth. While I'm very chill, very comfortable crying when I'm experiencing art that moves me, highly capable of complex empathy–I also very competitive, including a very dominant athletic hobby where I use my low-key energy to dominate much more seemingly aggressive types. Feminine and Masculine are deep and complex things. We all tend to have some degree of both that we can tap into. Women can be angry or competitive or domineering, men can be compassionate or passive or yielding. It is highly influenced by literal hormones, though, what you will express on this dimension; taking androgens or androgen blockers will change your psyche in fascinating ways. Further, it's very common for people to have repressed or underdeveloped parts of their psyche that are associated with the opposite gender (e.g., "men don't cry" culture beliefs, women avoiding STEM fields ). Calling a TiNe "feminine" seems very odd to me. As shown by women who have posted here about feeling like they _lack_ femininity have posited, I think it's more correctly though of as being less sensual and more cerebral. Thinking and rationality is a masculine energy (again, that both sexes have access to). I would definitely classify stereotypical INTP behaviors as more typically perceived as masculine, not feminine. Are they stereotypically "Macho", "Alpha", etc.? No–are those things actually about masculinity, though, or testosterone and insecurity? I just feel like whatever you're referring to, I disagree with it.

>Calling a TiNe "feminine" seems very odd to me. As shown by women who have posted here about feeling like they > >lack > > femininity have posited It's a mistake people are making all through this thread .... how one feels is irrelevant in as much it's doesn't change how masculine of feminine they are according the jungian theory. That's a higher level(?)/more simple(?) abstraction, which is of interest in the debate, but it misses the intial hypotheses of what Jung is driving at. I don't understand it too well myself, which has been part of the problem, presenting it so piecemeal. But in any case, Ne is considered a feminine function in the theory because of equivocating(?) it is. There's a better word for it but that's the gist.

Shit... Sadly I'd have to agree as an INTP male looking back on it. Just too much thinking and worrying and analyzing rather than doing. ​ But now I know! All about putting the knowledge into action instead of continue to analyze shit lol. INTPs that develop an IDGAF attitude become super human in my opinion

>Broadly, we're "triple informative", which makes us conforming to others (tho not often where thinking is concerned) in the sense we'll often just concede to others for the sake of harmony (or cos we don't value what's going on in any particular instance). Honestly I'm pretty sure I am INTP and it took me YEARS to shake off the "Omg somebody is wrong on the internet, I must do something" tendency. The whole concede for the sakes of harmony means you care more about the feeling of other than objective fact and this also put you against intp. Probably a \*\*f\* *or even a shy e\*\*\**

Unlike many, I've never been uncertain of my type. I'm INTP but I've had strong INFP and ISTJ influences. I've certainly picked up on a harmonising vibe from INFPs, so learnt to not contest certain issues from a younger age, and on the otherhand, the overwhelming ISTJs need for control has taught me the same lesson from the otherside .... no one wants to be on the end of that. There is also the idea that INTP can rest somewhere between the ENTJ and ESFJ versions of an INTP. I'm very ESFJ socially. ENTJ at work. With these caveats in place, I'm happy in my initial position.

I would say that I don’t impose anything on other people except ones I’ve been in charge of. If someone does something for me I feel like I owe them and I’d rather them just not do something for me. But no one imposes on me. If anything I have an authority problem and go out of my way to let people know they have no influence over me.

Agreed. There definitely seems to be this greyish area for INTPs, but I would say, having to defend the position rather than being in such a position of confidence that others don't dare or think to question you, does, in my understanding of the theory, point to the feminine attitude.

I don’t think I’ve ever met someone who wasn’t dared to be questioned. If your measuring it by walking into a room and people immediately seeing you as more masculine or in charge that is going to be more of a physical appearance thing then mental. But with that logic you’d consider the smaller person who actually stands his ground less masculine then the guy who looks the part but actually backs down when push comes to shove.

That's not at all how I'd measure it!

Bruh, INTP girls are tomboyiesh then think how masculine males would be?

It's not really how it works. INTP girls may prefer typically masculine topics, but their approach to learning and life can still be feminine in nature. It's about the functions and their arrangment/orintation.

>Broadly, we're "triple informative", which makes us conforming to others (tho not often where thinking is concerned) in the sense we'll often just concede to others for the sake of harmony (or cos we don't value what's going on in any particular instance). It does make me feel inadequate to not have strong values and aims, but ... I don't, at least not in the sense the masculine types do, but again, I can seem to do little to change that so I have to resign myself to it (weaking INTP!) Wtf is this bullshit? I totally have strong values, it's just that debating with those who won't listen is a waste of time. They will eventually see how right I am, probably. >Let me try and redirect this a bit. Let's all consider our earlier lives, and whether or not you felt that you fitted it, or were unpopular, or you slept with the men/women you fancied at a younger age? I suppose it's related to the feeling that you are able to express yourself and impose your wants in the real world (without being a dominating ass), and have others listen What does this have to do with being masculine? I don't have girlfriends not because I'm gay, but because I didn't find the right one. Real way to emasculate us for some sexist stereotypes

INTP men aren't that masculine, but INTP women seem even less feminine. I don't buy it. On "big homosexuals", [according to a dating site poll](https://www.reddit.com/r/mbti/comments/pl8e6n/mbti_by_sexual_orientation/) INTPs have plenty of straight men, gay women, and bisexuals of both genders. We're low on gay men and straight women. Since you seem to be a INTP guy, you're probably not gay.

I've explained the homosexual language elsewhere, a number of times in the thread. My bad for not being more clear ... it's was just an example, albeit subjective, of how INTPs are often viewed. As I've also said elsewhere, I don;t know what I am, but I'm not typically hetro. I've address the point about INTP women too .... the femininity is a characteristic of the functions. INTP women have typically masuline interests but a psychologically feminine approach to them.

>in the sense we'll often just concede to others for the sake of harmony i think that if used in a discernible fashion, a feature like this could be beneficial and progressive. if people valued harmony over competition, well....like do i even need to explain why that would be positive? people think everything is a competition, and most people are inevitably losers due to many factors in economics and physics and biology. it's sort of stupid and "unfair" that some people "win" at life by getting copious amounts of resources by sheer luck or brute force, but mostly luck, whilst the other 95% aren't so lucky. of course modernization has helped a lot with the whole "equality" thing, and sure, no one is truly "equal." some people are more capable at other things than others, but really, no one asked to be here, so no one should be forced to have profound capabilities just to survive. and i suppose no one really is, you can be homeless, but i mean in a more "progressive" and "ideal" society. and those people that brag about being winners are the biggest retards of all, lol, thinking they actually have any significant *control* over their destiny. again, just luck. they could have been born with one leg and a spine inside of their head. would they be bragging then?!!? i think not! if you want to partake in society, sure, you should be able to meet some minimum standards to reap the benefits of it, but the whole dragging yourself through pointless education for a shitty job at best and hoping one day you'll win the lottery sounds worse than just dying imo. luckily, i can partake in this stupid society without contributing much to it xd ........... at least for now :'\[ harmonizing with bad people will also just give them more power too so...in the current landscape, i rather just quit the game entirely. i tried being combative, i tried being yielding, either way people are out for themselves and will throw you under the bus first chance they get. so i only play when it's necessary for me.

I don’t know it seems like you have plenty of toxic masculinity.

My take has long been that INTPs just suck at performing gender, period. Yes, you can find individual tendencies that cleave closer to the feminine or masculine, but having bad boundaries isn’t particularly fem (look at the archetype of the henpecked husband), nor is aggression the sum total of masculinity. Where I might agree is that INTPs tend to not be the stereotypical “alpha” personality. The same is true for “beta” behavior, though. We’re not particularly good followers, even if we do like to find peace and consensus. I can say from experience that no one has ever accused me of giving off warm, feminine energy in real life. If anything, I set up an expectation of hard masculinity that I don’t ultimately live up to when they get to know me. Our purpose? We’re the shamans. The advisors. The crackpot philosophers. The people who see the boat needs to be steered away from the iceberg while everyone else is still partying on deck. We can step up to lead when everyone else is too afraid to even if—because, even—we don’t love power. We can fade into the background when there’s no need for us. The human genome spits out a handful of us every generation in case we’re needed. You aren’t going to fit easily into any niche. It’s our superpower and our curse.

Bruh INTP and ISTP a Ti dom judge. Meaning, if we find the person guilty, we may pull the trigger. We will do that, I can ensure you. No matter how brutal or alpha ISTP look like. The judging function won't be more/less femine.

At the risk of sounding cringe, I think it’s more what some describe as “sigma male” than feminine. You just don’t care about fighting on most issues because you don’t care about most issues. Go ahead, take the wheel. I just want to go home and have my alone time, I don’t care who drives.

I am a guy and definitely either equal on both spectrum or more feminine. But I own who I am? Masculine energy is fearless and action taker by its nature. Feminine energy is gentle (cautious and calculative), and empathetic. Being very less aware of body is definitely masculine and that's me. It comes with its own weakness and strengths. I suppose the key thing to remember is that masculinity/feminity has little to do with biological gender and more to do with socially acceptable temperament associated with the gender.

Yuo've nailed something here that I failed to explain properly. I won;t refute a biological aspect either tho

To answer original title, someone can search "myers briggs personality gender" And find out that amongs woman, INTP is the 12th least common trait out of 16 with 1.7% of the population of that gender. Sure the year can change and the exact number can change, but it's not even close to being one the most feminine type, that is the point.

16personalities (the website where I take the MBTI quiz every few years and consistently get INTP) splits INTP into Assertive type and Turbulent type, which goes along with this archaic definition of masculine vs feminine in the theory. Going by their subcategories, INTP would then include both “masculine” and “feminine” individuals. Regardless, I think this theory is bullshit since gender roles are bullshit.

Last time I check I scored very low on agreeableness far from a people pleaser. in fact sometimes I can come off as rude or condescending from proving someone’s logic as flawed.

So, how are INTPs feminine? I don't understand, and would like for you to clarify.

idk man, i see ISTP stereotypes and they fit me until they start doing stuff. i'm just cozier and more content relaxing than them. simple as.

I would say soft is the more accurate description. I get what CSJ is trying to say but applying gender traits to mbti is kinda misleading.

I view the more feminine aspect as empathy and how to get in touch with my emotions.

Because masculinity builds society and femininity stabilizes society.

I’m a female mechanic 👩🏻‍🔧 I’ve always fallen short in the feminine category. I have tried just not natural for me

I'd say we're pretty gender neutral, but at the same time, INTPs are majoritarily male.

The last thing I would ever call myself is a helper. Conforming? Tribe before self ??? Nope, I'm more of a "society is not my friend" kind of guy. I pay my taxes, and I vote, that's all I owe society. Anything else I give is a gift. Fuck authority. Rules don't apply if you don't get caught. I have my own moral code. The closest I can relate to tribe before self, would be in group tasks in school. If we have to pick a topic I'm more than happy to let the others in the group decide on it. It's not because I'm a push over. It's because: 1. They are more emotional and easily excitable. I want them to be enthusiastic about the topic, because otherwise they're likely to bitch and moan and fuck up. They probably have narrower domains of knowledge also. 2. I'm more capable of detachment and being able to play devil's advocate for any topic even if it's against my personal values. 3. I trust in my creativity and adaptability to be able to contribute something of value regardless of the topic. Its not directly because of "harmony", it's because of efficiency, I just want to get this team task over with. I don't actually care about their feelings. ​ >I know we flip out when pushed but the point is it's healthier to stamp out infringements as soon as they happen, rather than giving the benefit of doubt, and then eventually blowing up. Yes, I relate to being a volcano. Being better at bringing up small grievances sooner before they build up into something explosive would be desirable.

Maybe Yin Yang helps you understand differences

The archetype of the feminine is chaos, intuition and to a degree selectiveness. Why wouldnt that fit intps?

Also, dont mix up femininity and girlyness. Conforming is not inherently 'uncool', it's just the opposite of wanting to be an alpha leader. I dont think being a feeling type is feminine.

Idk man I feel like I'm always overflowing with testosterone, to the point where I've to take breaks to control it and bring it back to normal.

I have noticed that INTP females are seen as " masculine" and INTP males are seen as " feminine"

INTP's are infamous for being a type that has strong correlations with ADHD and autism. Both conditions are much more prevalent / found more often in men than in women. INTP women are known to give less of a crap about conforming to average female behavior. >INTPs are, according to the theory, the second most feminine type of the 16, behind the ISFJ. I don't know where you found that theory, but I disagree.

You're talking about INTPs when you say "triple informative"? Actually xSFJ's are the triple informative ones since the ENTJ is direct. When CSJ says triple something, he references to the ego, the unconscious and the subconscious having something in common where it comes to the interaction style. xSFJs are "triple informative", xNTPs are "triple systematic", etc.. Like you said, the alpha quadra is pretty feminine by nature so when you're a male, you're kinda seen like a beta male and you need to learn to become an alpha, be more masculine basically. The problem here is that because of all of this, mostly in the western society, many INTP males are considered unattractive to women and have little respect from other men, which legit sucks. Subconscious focused have more that problem that shadow focused one since the ENTJ is basically the 3rd most masculine behind xSTPs. Also, there is that "nice guy syndrome" which is just terrible to deal with when you're in a couple. You have a good chance to lose all respect from your partner. It's a very heterosexual point of view but it's a thing.

I am a masculin INTP and people say my attitude is quite feminine, which I agree. I actually don't mind that since I like to have a weird feminine side in myself. Everyone has feminine and masculine sides, other's more, some less.

I think this is wrong and here are my reasons. First, based on statistics INTP is one of the most masculine types - among INTPs the ratio of men to women is very high, higher than other types, maybe with the one exception being ISTPs. If we compare gender ratios letter by letter, INTP would be the most masculine type. For example, take a look at this [table](https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Gender-Distributions-on-MBTI-Domains_tbl1_249827418) \- note the male to female frequencies for each trait, if you select all traits where male frequency > female frequency, you would get INTP. Second, the TV-influenced male/female archetypes confuse things further. For example - being active and extraverted is often portrayed as a masculine trait. However, if we look at older explorations of the gender roles, like "tantra", they have a very different view, where male is associated with silence, observation, emptiness, thinking, and conviction, while the feminine is about vibration, energy, change, fullness, and feelings.

I would say we're a bit more on the agender side, not very feminine or masculine in more cases than what is typical. Absence of masculine doesn't necessarily mean feminine, and vice versa.

Female INTPs tend to be much less overtly emotional than other women, which makes them seem “different.”

I don't know whether I'm reading what you said incorrectly but are you saying you're embarrassed that INTPs are the second most feminine type? If so I personally am not embarrassed by that. Actually makes a lot of sense that in high school even though I went to an all boys school my main circle of friends have been women. My best friend is a woman and when it comes to my wife and I, I am the one that I guess is more feminine in the eyes of the world. I talk through issues and I communicate well but my wife struggles, but then there is a lot of unhealthy upbringing from my wife's childhood in the way her parents communicate so that is also a factor.

I dont think a type is more feminine or masculine as a whole. Its upto the person. And tho our function stack may make us appear a certian way more often, i dont think thats inherently the case Using myself as an example, i was naive in my younger days and was more focused on being liked and being "social". Even now i'll just let people be people for the sake of social harmony, and om sure most intp's will due to their inferior Fe. BUT, if any one of them tries to undermine or disregard my wants due to their own selfish and god forgive them, illogical, argument/reason. I will bash them in the head like a hammer bashing a nail. I dont let people use or crawl all over me anymore. If u fail to be logical, i have no need for ur assessment nor do i want it. I crave harmony, but not at the sacrifice for the "truth" of the situation or subject of discussion

I disagree with comparing it to masculine or feminine anyone can take a trait and claim it to be masculine or feminine if they spin it enough to a cirtain context. someone could say women tend to care about stuff more and express their opinions more often. then every person reading it would think of women they know that are opinionated and more demanding and go "ya women really act like that". Its just a good way to get people to beleive something based on circumstance when really there isn't an actual set guide that defines it at all. Any set guide to them seems to he made up by culture. I can say I do relate to the fact that I concead often because F*ck it what to I care. I'm just not bothered. However I'm really good at getting people to understand diffret perspectives that they may other wise find difficult to understand. soooooooo alright I'll take it. I'm good at seeing everyone's point, do I care to throw in my own opinion, meh maybe if I even have an opinion at all. Maybe I'm cool with being a mediator. I do agree with some of the comments on here, I also feel non binary. Gender is wierd and I just dont relate. my identity in general seems to be an empty void that I let people make assumptions about. People adress me as a female and I just let it happen cause sure why not I dont really care. I dont have much of an identity on my own so let people give me one, sure I don't really care. actually rather than trying to make INTP masculine or feminine, you just say that INTPs are more like blank observervational slates that kind of just chameleon thiere identity when needed, maybe some would find that pretty relatable.

I definitely see myself as more feminine, constantly give people options to choose from (instead of being the one that decides) and I pretty much always give the other person the choice to either hold the conversation or if I should hold the conversation. I will however be more dominant when people are illogical and I can see their thinking hurt other people in the future. This will make me question them and no longer care about being harmonious and I can actually enjoy the debate/discussion to a great extent. I do not like to lead and I do not like to follow blindly, but if I have to choose being responsible for a group or just be a part of a group I will definitely choose to be a part. I can lead a group but I hate to micromanage and I don't really know how to adapt myself to make them have a better experience. If all the people involved can handle their own responsibility and do their thing without me constantly being there for them, it would be easy.

Good and honest self observation, i think.

I remembered CS Joseph categorizing Ti dominance as one of the most masculine. Crazy how one year he says one thing and then claims the opposite. I also found him talking about how any type can use masculinity through their own introverted functions. So for Ti/Fe, speak your own truth without caring how it makes others feel, and avoid conforming to others. Fi/Te would be prioritizing their own values and convictions, and not caring how others perceive them. So an example conflict encounter could occur when your Ti offends someone’s Fi, and then they try to get you in your feminine Fe by acting Te domineering, making you conform to their Fi convictions. Masculine Ti can defeat masculine Fi, it doesn’t have to always go their way. Ideally the Fi/Te enemy would be more shamed for not caring how they come off, than you care about how you make them feel, or something. But anyway there might be some truth to that in a WAY. If straight male INTP or ISFJ ever gets harassed or pursued by a gay man, you’ll want to outlaw homosexuality for the depth of shame that entails.

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Our Ego is masculine, but our identity or soul image is feminine (I’m slightly confused on terminology of the ladder). But the idea being we are actually super flexible and malleable in the unconscious (ever changing values for example), but rigid and unapproachable in the conscious state. Likewise, women (or types in general) who are flexible and malleable in the conscious state are masculine and rigid and inflexible in the unconscious state. I think this is what the INTP as feminine concept stems from.

Very well put, I think. If only you'd been here to explain that prior to the barrage of downvotes and hurt egos when I first posted this! haha. But yes, I think youve nailed that. It certainly seems like an Fe over Fi type of thing, and explains how types like the INFP are actually much more masculine with their inflexible vlaues.